View Full Version : Muhammad Ali vs Benny Leonard - Who Ranks Higher P4P?


The Beatles
03-11-2010, 05:28 AM
Take you're pick......feel free to give you're opinions on the fighter you think is better and if you want you can state you're reasons for you're choice
ps...JAB is a zionist and is therefore banned for giving his opinions in this thread because of his blatant bias agenda

Obama
03-11-2010, 08:13 AM
B. Leonard. Better resume, more complete fighter, & cleaner fighter.

Ali is better than the other Leonard however.

Joey Giardello
03-11-2010, 03:54 PM
B. Leonard. Better resume, more complete fighter, & cleaner fighter.

Ali is better than the other Leonard however.

better resume? are you jokeing? ali could have the best resume of all time!

Marcov
03-11-2010, 06:15 PM
Muhammad Ali! He had several HOF careers squeezed into one.

Obama
03-11-2010, 08:00 PM
better resume? are you jokeing? ali could have the best resume of all time!

I suggest you learn more about Leonard's resume, which is far from the best resume ever, but still narrowly better than Ali's. The man found meaningful success at a world class level from Featherweight to Welterweight, and here's the short on his career, a piece I put together some time last year:

-------------------------------------------

Benny Leonard fought from 1911 to 1932 through boxing's apex of popularity, the roaring twenties. After Joe Gans reigned supreme in the Lightweight division for over a decade, transitioning between the 19th and 20th centuries, there wasn't another Lightweight nearly as dominant until the arrival of Benny Leonard. Leonard had the alias of the "Ghetto Wizard", and was described by some as "the brainiest fighter of them all." While these descriptions don't seem to go hand in hand, let us recall the time period and the fact that Leonard was Jewish. The ghetto then and the ghetto now meant something quite different.


Although Leonard fought in the 20s, it was far from consecutive. He retired in early 1925 and stayed out of the prize ring from mid 1924 to late 1931. Going by newspaper decisions, before retiring Leonard had amassed a record of 165 wins, 18 losses, 10 draws, and 4 no decisions. After coming back in 1931 he would actually only lose 1 of his next 20 bouts, his last bout against hall of famer Jimmy McLarnin. McLarnin aside however, the only other comeback opposition who was remotely credible was top 10 rated Paulie Walker, who had a record of 20-11-6 and had lost 4 of his last 6 fights at the time. But BEFORE his retirement, Leonard had beat the following hall of famers:


Lew Tendler (x2)
Johnny Dundee (x3)
Jack Britton (x2)
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Welsh (x2)
Rocky Kansas (x4)


He also drew with hall of famer and fellow multi-divisional great Ted 'Kid' Lewis according to the New York times. Other publications scored it for both fighters, but the title could only change hands on a knock out regardless.


Despite being a natural Lightweight, Leonard was able to cut down for a few Featherweight bouts early in his career (a teenager at the time). His most notable opponent was contender Patsy Kline. At Lightweight, Leonard met the vast majority of his hall of fame opposition. This is also where Leonard established himself as Champion for over 7 years, retiring with the title at only 28 years of age. As a Welterweight, Jack Britton was Leonard's only hall of fame conquest, a man he met a total of 3 times in the ring, defeating him in the first two bouts. Unfortunately for Leonard, not until the third meeting with Britton was a Welterweight title at stake. Leonard would lose this bout by a controversial disqualification. Although meeting Welterweights like Britton from time to time during his reign as a Lightweight, Leonard was never recorded to weigh over 140 lbs prior to coming out of retirement. Also, between 1914 and his very last fight in 1932, Leonard had actually beaten every man who had ever beat him. Even ignoring his return to the ring, that's a 10 year accomplishment which included roughly 140 bouts. Needless to say, Benny Leonard is clearly one of the all time greats.

Joey Giardello
03-11-2010, 08:35 PM
I suggest you learn more about Leonard's resume, which is far from the best resume ever, but still narrowly better than Ali's. The man found meaningful success at a world class level from Featherweight to Welterweight, and here's the short on his career, a piece I put together some time last year:

-------------------------------------------

Benny Leonard fought from 1911 to 1932 through boxing's apex of popularity, the roaring twenties. After Joe Gans reigned supreme in the Lightweight division for over a decade, transitioning between the 19th and 20th centuries, there wasn't another Lightweight nearly as dominant until the arrival of Benny Leonard. Leonard had the alias of the "Ghetto Wizard", and was described by some as "the brainiest fighter of them all." While these descriptions don't seem to go hand in hand, let us recall the time period and the fact that Leonard was Jewish. The ghetto then and the ghetto now meant something quite different.


Although Leonard fought in the 20s, it was far from consecutive. He retired in early 1925 and stayed out of the prize ring from mid 1924 to late 1931. Going by newspaper decisions, before retiring Leonard had amassed a record of 165 wins, 18 losses, 10 draws, and 4 no decisions. After coming back in 1931 he would actually only lose 1 of his next 20 bouts, his last bout against hall of famer Jimmy McLarnin. McLarnin aside however, the only other comeback opposition who was remotely credible was top 10 rated Paulie Walker, who had a record of 20-11-6 and had lost 4 of his last 6 fights at the time. But BEFORE his retirement, Leonard had beat the following hall of famers:


Lew Tendler (x2)
Johnny Dundee (x3)
Jack Britton (x2)
Johnny Kilbane
Freddie Welsh (x2)
Rocky Kansas (x4)


He also drew with hall of famer and fellow multi-divisional great Ted 'Kid' Lewis according to the New York times. Other publications scored it for both fighters, but the title could only change hands on a knock out regardless.


Despite being a natural Lightweight, Leonard was able to cut down for a few Featherweight bouts early in his career (a teenager at the time). His most notable opponent was contender Patsy Kline. At Lightweight, Leonard met the vast majority of his hall of fame opposition. This is also where Leonard established himself as Champion for over 7 years, retiring with the title at only 28 years of age. As a Welterweight, Jack Britton was Leonard's only hall of fame conquest, a man he met a total of 3 times in the ring, defeating him in the first two bouts. Unfortunately for Leonard, not until the third meeting with Britton was a Welterweight title at stake. Leonard would lose this bout by a controversial disqualification. Although meeting Welterweights like Britton from time to time during his reign as a Lightweight, Leonard was never recorded to weigh over 140 lbs prior to coming out of retirement. Also, between 1914 and his very last fight in 1932, Leonard had actually beaten every man who had ever beat him. Even ignoring his return to the ring, that's a 10 year accomplishment which included roughly 140 bouts. Needless to say, Benny Leonard is clearly one of the all time greats.
benny had a great career and a great resume but it is not as good as ali's who beat the better fighters in liston, archie moore, henry cooper, williams, patterson, foreman, frazier, norton, shavers, jimmy young, ron lyle, bob foster, jerry quary, mac foster, jimmy ellis, oscar natalio bonavena, that right there could be the greatest resume of all time!!!

Obama
03-11-2010, 08:46 PM
benny had a great career and a great resume but it is not as good as ali's who beat the better fighters in liston, archie moore, henry cooper, williams, patterson, foreman, frazier, norton, shavers, jimmy young, ron lyle, bob foster, jerry quary, mac foster, jimmy ellis, oscar natalio bonavena, that right there could be the greatest resume of all time!!!

1) Don't ignore the prime status of those fighters.

2) Don't ignore Ali's questionable victories, losses, and struggles against those fighter.

3) It's really not even close to a SRR type of resume. You just dropped like 16 names, past it HW versions of Bob Foster and Archie Moore being the worst of the lot. If you rate guys like that, then you'd have to rate at least 60 of the fighters Robinson beat.

Joey Giardello
03-11-2010, 09:10 PM
1) Don't ignore the prime status of those fighters.

2) Don't ignore Ali's questionable victories, losses, and struggles against those fighter.

3) It's really not even close to a SRR type of resume. You just dropped like 16 names, past it HW versions of Bob Foster and Archie Moore being the worst of the lot. If you rate guys like that, then you'd have to rate at least 60 of the fighters Robinson beat.

Ron Lyle, Sonny Liston, Earnie Shavers, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Henry Cooper were all in there prime or very close to there prime when ali beat them, and you say ali's resume is not even close to robinson's? you are talking nothing but ****

Obama
03-11-2010, 09:56 PM
Ron Lyle, Sonny Liston, Earnie Shavers, Jerry Quarry, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Henry Cooper were all in there prime or very close to there prime when ali beat them, and you say ali's resume is not even close to robinson's? you are talking nothing but ****

If Ali was past his prime when Frazier beat him, Frazier was certainly past his prime when Ali beat him. Ali even acknowledged Frazier wasn't the same fighter before the two stepped in the ring again.

Liston clearly was past it. It's not even remotely debatable. Well, if there is any debate, it's between whether he was just past it or he threw the fights altogether.

Henry Cooper is a B level fighter. Robinson beat 20 fighters on Cooper's level in his career. I'll even list them:

Pete Lello, Norman Rubio (x2), Reuben Shank, California Jackie Wilson (x2), Ralph Zannelli, Jimmy McDaniels, O'Neill Bell, Joe Curcio, Cecil Hudson I, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Don Lee (x2), Earl Turner, Steve Belloise, Charley Fusari, Jose Basora, Joe Rindone (x2), Bobby Dykes, Cyrille Delannoit

Joey Giardello
03-11-2010, 10:09 PM
If Ali was past his prime when Frazier beat him, Frazier was certainly past his prime when Ali beat him. Ali even acknowledged Frazier wasn't the same fighter before the two stepped in the ring again.

Liston clearly was past it. It's not even remotely debatable. Well, if there is any debate, it's between whether he was just past it or he threw the fights altogether.

Henry Cooper is a B level fighter. Robinson beat 20 fighters on Cooper's level in his career. I'll even list them:

Pete Lello, Norman Rubio (x2), Reuben Shank, California Jackie Wilson (x2), Ralph Zannelli, Jimmy McDaniels, O'Neill Bell, Joe Curcio, Cecil Hudson I, Artie Levine, Georgie Abrams, Bernard Docusen, Don Lee (x2), Earl Turner, Steve Belloise, Charley Fusari, Jose Basora, Joe Rindone (x2), Bobby Dykes, Cyrille Delannoit

Yeah liston was that past it! thats why they made him a huge favourite and gave ali no chance! cooper was british, commenwealth and european champion when them belts ment something! he was a great win for ali, frazier was still close to him prime when ali beat him 2nd time round, he had only been beat by foreman, who would of always beaten joe!

The Beatles
03-12-2010, 03:50 AM
a 'humble' response to a zionist somewhere in Stupid **** land......

apparently average age = tougher opponent

Sonny Liston was coming off his two most brutal victories over Floyd Patterson when Ali demolished him, twice....Liston's only career loss up until that point had been a SD loss to relative unknown Marty Marshall

George Foreman was an undefeated Heavyweight juggernaught, who ammassed a 40-0 record and wins over an undefeated Joe Frazier and Ken Norton by the time he met Ali in Zaire...

Joe Frazier, rated amongst the Top 10 greatest heavies of all time, had only 1 defeat when Ali beat him....cynics will say Frazier was past prime and lost to Foreman.....well, then every victory of Ali's career post-1970 was a win past his prime

the higher the age doesn't necesarilly mean they cannot be prime or very close to....

Benny Leonard fought practically every note worthy fighter of his era, even past prime so i am not knocking him there.....however, the available footage of his fights is very limited and a large portion of his career is based on newspaper articles......

IMO, Ali's resume P4P matches any fighter in history,

Sonny Liston 2
Floyd Patterson 2
Joe Frazier 3
Bob Foster
Ken Norton 3
George Foreman
Earnie Shavers
Archie Moore
Buster Mathis
Jimmy Ellis
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Jerry Quarry
Karl Mildenberger

and the list goes on....

Personally i rank Ali as the greatest heavyweight in history - his level of competition, the fact he was the first 3 time Heavyweight Champion, the most graceful heavyweight in history with an iron chin and tremendous courage etc etc leads me to believe he was > Leonard

Snopkins
03-12-2010, 04:02 AM
Since when is vaseline used for butt sex?


Don't worry,dunce.We don't judge others here.




and you say ali's resume is not even close to robinson's?


It may not be,but Robinson's ducking of virtually every world class black fighter can not be excused.

Robinson apologists have attempted to cover this up for years when spouting the same old garbage about Robby.

Toney616
03-12-2010, 03:27 PM
It may not be,but Robinson's ducking of virtually every world class black fighter can not be excused.

Robinson apologists have attempted to cover this up for years when spouting the same old garbage about Robby.
Who did Robinson duck, according to you?

The Beatles
03-12-2010, 07:20 PM
Don't worry,dunce.We don't judge others here.







It may not be,but Robinson's ducking of virtually every world class black fighter can not be excused.

Robinson apologists have attempted to cover this up for years when spouting the same old garbage about Robby.
lol you can't be serious mate???? which Robinson are you talking about??? surely its not Sugar Ray

TheGreatA
03-12-2010, 08:05 PM
Who did Robinson duck, according to you?

He'll come up with middleweights and light heavyweights when Robinson was no more than a welterweight himself and fought every single ranked black welterweight including Kid Gavilan, "Sugar" George Costner, California Jackie Wilson, etc.

The only one that Robinson can be accused of avoiding during his prime years is Charley Burley. Even then Burley was making his name as a middleweight when Robinson was the uncrowned welterweight champion of the world.

HitmanHattonAY
03-13-2010, 12:19 AM
Ali !! best heavyweight ever

JAB5239
03-13-2010, 05:59 AM
Don't worry,dunce.We don't judge others here.







It may not be,but Robinson's ducking of virtually every world class black fighter can not be excused.

Robinson apologists have attempted to cover this up for years when spouting the same old garbage about Robby.

Seems like you always feel the need to put down many of the greats whether it be Robby, Duran or Frazier. How about showing us your top 10 list of p4p fighters and explaining your choices for a change?

Snopkins
03-13-2010, 02:25 PM
Who are you to demand such a thing from me,Gabby?



Would you like me to post a list just so you can completely pick it apart and discredit each choice? Lol.No chance!



I don't have a top ten heavyweight list,nevermind some hokey pokey p4p list.

Open1234
03-13-2010, 02:41 PM
I picked benny leonard because he was not just known as the king of the lightweights , he was also a great fighter overall , going up to welterweight to fight for the championship of the world there. But among popularity it all goe to ali who really made an impact of the sport inside and outside the ring.

JAB5239
03-13-2010, 03:30 PM
Who are you to demand such a thing from me,Gabby?

Would you like me to post a list just so you can completely pick it apart and discredit each choice? Lol.No chance!

I don't have a top ten heavyweight list,nevermind some hokey pokey p4p list.

I haven't demanded anything, only asked. But if you don't have your own list, how can you criticize anyone elses rankings of fighters? What are you going by? And why are you so afraid to have a list picked apart anyway? You're the one always saying this is just the internet not the real world. Do you suddenly fear my opinion of you or any list you might post? Man up.

General Zod
03-13-2010, 03:35 PM
Who are you to demand such a thing from me,Gabby?



Would you like me to post a list just so you can completely pick it apart and discredit each choice? Lol.No chance!



I don't have a top ten heavyweight list,nevermind some hokey pokey p4p list.
Out of interest what fighters do you like in no particular order?

Obama
03-13-2010, 03:43 PM
People need to stop trippin over Liston being the heavy betting favorite against Ali. This in no way made him prime. It just means people believed he was. History has proven time and time again that betting favorites got **** to do with whether a fighter still has it.

The Beatles
03-14-2010, 04:22 AM
People need to stop trippin over Liston being the heavy betting favorite against Ali. This in no way made him prime. It just means people believed he was. History has proven time and time again that betting favorites got **** to do with whether a fighter still has it.
you're joking right??? Liston coming off two wins over Patterson was not prime?? not even close????

T3dBundy
03-14-2010, 12:54 PM
People need to stop trippin over Liston being the heavy betting favorite against Ali. This in no way made him prime. It just means people believed he was. History has proven time and time again that betting favorites got **** to do with whether a fighter still has it.

how many times are u gonna repeat yourself now?
nobody said liston was at his best, but he was still better than anyone joe louis fought :D

knockemout
03-14-2010, 03:32 PM
Ali. I think he had the better wins and the better title reign.

But they're both top 10 P4P fighters.

HitmanHattonAY
03-14-2010, 07:33 PM
Ali probably !!