View Full Version : Would Tyson of beaten Holyfield, Foreman and Lewis between 86-90 befoe douglas defeat


Stallone60
03-04-2010, 02:52 PM
When Tyson won the title in 86 he was the man for 4years and dominated the heavyweight divison by becoming Undisputed champion. The only fighter that gave tyson a fight was Tucker and in the end tyson outpointed him. He dominated Holmes, Spinks and all the other number 1 contenders. What do you think would of happend if tyson fought Holyfield, foreman and Lewis in the 80's before the defeat to douglas in 1990?

boxingbuff
03-04-2010, 03:06 PM
Prime Tyson would have been destroyed by a Prime George Forman.

Styles make fights.....

Prime Tyson would have been beaten by Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali as well.Liston by early KO,and by a close decision to Ali.

Tyson would have destroyed Lewis.

Stallone60
03-04-2010, 03:17 PM
I mean between 86-90 before tysons defeat to douglas. i think tyson would of ko'd Lennox lewis won by UD against a prime holyfield in the eighties and won by Ud against an old Foreman who would of been to slow for a prime tyson in the 80's.

Chex31
03-04-2010, 03:26 PM
Prime Tyson KOs Lewis

Still loses to Big George

Possibly TKOs Holyfield, or decision

Double Jab
03-04-2010, 03:26 PM
Tyson from 86-90 still had the jab, moved much better, put his punches together rather than winging that one big shot, and best of all, he was cool under fire (even at 19, freaking A) and had a body that could keep doing this for 12 rounds straight.

Tyson when he moved right could be hit, but never hit very cleanly, and best of all, the entire time you look for those shots, he is throwing combos at you.

I think Tyson could have wore down anyone, his work rate would have won him at least decision victories.

mrboxer
03-04-2010, 04:07 PM
none of these guys,tyson style is perfect for these three and the results would of been the same,lewis and holyfield beat tyson and if tyson would of fought foreman at any time it would of been over for tyson via 1st round kayo:boxing:

CarlosG815
03-04-2010, 04:17 PM
He KO's Lewis and Holyfield.

Foreman, it depends. He could beat 86-90 Foreman KO but prime foreman he'd probably beat in a UD or it'd be a late fight TKO.

Foreman never really impressed me with his skills and abilities.

-Swizzy-
03-04-2010, 04:22 PM
in a word.. yes.

boxingbuff
03-04-2010, 05:08 PM
I mean between 86-90 before tysons defeat to douglas. i think tyson would of ko'd Lennox lewis won by UD against a prime holyfield in the eighties and won by Ud against an old Foreman who would of been to slow for a prime tyson in the 80's.

I'm talking about Mike Tyson "Before" he fought Douglas too.

Styles make fights and George Forman would have destroyed Tyson.

Sonny Liston would have KO'd Tyson as well.

Muhammad Ali would have beat Tyson in a very close fight.

Tyson would have destroyed Lewis.

Tyson would have TKO'd Hollyfield.

Mugwump
03-04-2010, 05:58 PM
I can see Foreman hurting Tyson, but not the other way around.

The only Lewis he beats is the one with less than ten fights under his belt. Against Prime Lewis he's going down in the eighth after a beating.

Tyson could only function when he was intimidating his opponent. But Holy isn't intimidated by a bull elephant. The two could fight forever and Mike would never win. Holy just has his number.

Sugarj
03-04-2010, 06:10 PM
Right, just keeping to the actual thread question...........

Yes, peak Tyson (86-89) would surely have beaten the Holyfield, Foreman and Lewis that were around in the late 80s. Holyfield wasn't a fully established heavyweight yet.....too green at that point. Foreman was very durable and heavy handed but would have likely been outworked by peak Tyson. Lewis again was too green having just won amateur honours in the Olympics, I couldn't see this version of Lewis being able to trouble Tyson anything like Tucker did (and I still had Tyson a very handy points winner there).

CarlosG815
03-04-2010, 07:30 PM
I'm talking about Mike Tyson "Before" he fought Douglas too.

Styles make fights and George Forman would have destroyed Tyson.

Sonny Liston would have KO'd Tyson as well.

Muhammad Ali would have beat Tyson in a very close fight.

Tyson would have destroyed Lewis.

Tyson would have TKO'd Hollyfield.

Who even asked about those fights?:gives:

geribeetus
03-04-2010, 07:56 PM
prime foreman is a horrible style matchup for mike but i think the old foreman simply wouldn't be able to get his punches off. mike by ref stoppage before the 5th.

tyson had gotten sloppy against holyfield but was still relatively strong physically. i think holyfield had noticably slowed down by the time mike fought him and could counter much better earlier in his career. mike was never much of a pressure cooker. he liked to get his feet set on the outside and unleash his bombs when he got good and ready. i think holyfields speedy countering would've kept mike off balance all night. holyfield by close decision 6 times out of 10.

lewis simply didn't throw enough to keep early mike tyson off of him imo. mike by ko halfway through. the manny steward version of lewis might've been able to hang on a few more rounds.

edit: 1 or 2 times in a series of 10 i think mike could catch holyfield with something huge and finish him off. holyfield was hurt several times by bowe and ole foreman but got a break. bowe tended to punch himself out while missing most of his punches. when mike smelled blood he would keep throwing and landing until he was pulled off of his opponent.

them_apples
03-04-2010, 11:14 PM
Prime Tyson would have been destroyed by a Prime George Forman.

Styles make fights.....

Prime Tyson would have been beaten by Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali as well.Liston by early KO,and by a close decision to Ali.

Tyson would have destroyed Lewis.

Tyson would have lost to prime George, lost a Ud to Ali in a fight that was close on the cards, Stopped Liston and either stopped or decisioned Lewis.

them_apples
03-04-2010, 11:17 PM
prime foreman is a horrible style matchup for mike but i think the old foreman simply wouldn't be able to get his punches off. mike by ref stoppage before the 5th.

tyson had gotten sloppy against holyfield but was still relatively strong physically. i think holyfield had noticably slowed down by the time mike fought him and could counter much better earlier in his career. mike was never much of a pressure cooker. he liked to get his feet set on the outside and unleash his bombs when he got good and ready. i think holyfields speedy countering would've kept mike off balance all night. holyfield by close decision 6 times out of 10.

lewis simply didn't throw enough to keep early mike tyson off of him imo. mike by ko halfway through. the manny steward version of lewis might've been able to hang on a few more rounds.

edit: 1 or 2 times in a series of 10 i think mike could catch holyfield with something huge and finish him off. holyfield was hurt several times by bowe and ole foreman but got a break. bowe tended to punch himself out while missing most of his punches. when mike smelled blood he would keep throwing and landing until he was pulled off of his opponent.


Tyson vs Holyfield is a hard one to choose. Holyfield certainly knew Mikes weakness, but at the same time when Holyfield fought Mike, he fought a one dimensional frustrated Mike. A younger Tyson would listen to his corners advice and wouldn't keep looking for the KO and loading up with one big shot. Either way a younger Holyfield was Also a tad quicker, if not quite as strong but it could play a factor.

CarlosG815
03-05-2010, 12:02 AM
Tyson vs Holyfield is a hard one to choose. Holyfield certainly knew Mikes weakness, but at the same time when Holyfield fought Mike, he fought a one dimensional frustrated Mike. A younger Tyson would listen to his corners advice and wouldn't keep looking for the KO and loading up with one big shot. Either way a younger Holyfield was Also a tad quicker, if not quite as strong but it could play a factor.


Prime Tyson kills Holyfield. Who could honestly show me how Holyfield has any chance of taking Tyson in his prime? Hed look like any other random journeyman fighter against Tyson.

Holyfield is not on Mikes prime level at ANY point in his career.

geribeetus
03-05-2010, 12:57 AM
Prime Tyson kills Holyfield. Who could honestly show me how Holyfield has any chance of taking Tyson in his prime? Hed look like any other random journeyman fighter against Tyson.

Holyfield is not on Mikes prime level at ANY point in his career.

i hope you're kidding. no one's a bigger tyson fan than me but you're straight up talking out your ass dude.

frankenfrank
03-05-2010, 02:03 AM
the question of the thread is really a classic one and is very much asked for in such a forum. very good and interesting question which many people , at least including me , baring in their minds for a long time.
also , the answers to this point were interesting and good.

Tyson TKO Holyfield :
reasons : elbows > head , performances against common opponents , speed and power advantages go to tyson , and , no disrespect for qawi , but if qawi gave holyfield a great deal of problems in their first fight , made him retreat for a short period , and made him look silly , tyson could do better.

Foreman : foreman TKO tyson , but not before getting hurt himself , and not before the 8th round. probably even later , if at all , if it lasts the distance , it will be a close decision this way or another.
deducing from the frazier fights is why people consider foreman
the favorite , but tyson beat some big powerful heavies on that time.
however , one may notice that the smith and tucker fights lasted the full distance , while tyson was KO'd by douglas. so despite of foreman's very unwise technique , lack of stamina and his very weak (p4p) legs , it is hard to see tyson stopping him. but then again , remembering qawi , i think tyson could hurt foreman , ali , young and lyle knocked a prime foreman down , so , i guess tyson might have hurt him as well .

Lewis : tyson TKO lewis , can be even early , like mccall and rahman did.
but biggs lasted 7 , and i already mentioned the tucker , smith and douglas fights. also the lewis fight is relevant and also the ruddock , holmes and bruno fights.
and also , as opposed to what some posters on these type of forums repeat , tua did hurt lewis in their fight , scared him really , so a prime lewis would be definitely hurt and afraid of a prime tyson. that's why he waited so long to fight tyson.

sonnyboyx2
03-05-2010, 03:14 AM
When Tyson won the title in 86 he was the man for 4years and dominated the heavyweight divison by becoming Undisputed champion. The only fighter that gave tyson a fight was Tucker and in the end tyson outpointed him. He dominated Holmes, Spinks and all the other number 1 contenders. What do you think would of happend if tyson fought Holyfield, foreman and Lewis in the 80's before the defeat to douglas in 1990?

Tyson would heve KOd Lewis in the opening round.
Holyfield & Foreman would have beat Tyson IMO but they would have been tremendous and brutal battles

CarlosG815
03-05-2010, 03:14 AM
i hope you're kidding. no one's a bigger tyson fan than me but you're straight up talking out your ass dude.

Really?? In what way? Holyfield must have better hand speed? Power? Combinations? Defense?

Oh that's right, next to Tyson, Holyfield was a second rate fighter, and Tyson was Eon's above Holyfield in all those categories.

Don't tell me I'm talking out of my ass unless you can show me something that says otherwise. I can show you Tyson clowning people who were better than Holyfield in the 80's and you tell me that Holyfield can hold his own against Tyson.

The fact is, there wasn't a fighter that could beat Tyson in the 80's. Douglas was a fluke, and 9/10 times he get's KO'd in the first 3 rounds. He had his day, and it was the biggest upset in boxing history.

Don't tell me I'm talking out of my ass when you don't know what the **** you're talking about. Check your film and get back to me.

bojangles1987
03-05-2010, 08:34 AM
Lewis and Holyfield in the 80's had barely started, and were not their best, so Tyson would have beat them.

20LH20
03-05-2010, 09:31 AM
Yeah, I think he'd knock them all out.

Ziggy Stardust
03-05-2010, 10:04 AM
i hope you're kidding. no one's a bigger tyson fan than me but you're straight up talking out your ass dude.

I wouldn't bother: He's a hard-core Tyson nuthugger and by definition you can't have a reasonable conversation with him when Tyson is the subject.

Poet

CarlosG815
03-05-2010, 10:26 AM
I wouldn't bother: He's a hard-core Tyson nuthugger and by definition you can't have a reasonable conversation with him when Tyson is the subject.

Poet

So then you agree that Holyfield beats Tyson from 86-90? :haha: if that's your idea of being reasonable then you're an even bigger moron than I thought.

Hate on me cause you're in your 40's and live with your mother, but anybody that knows anything about boxing will tell you that prime 80's Tyson destroys Evander Holyfield, and it's not even close.

The funny part is 99% of the time when I'm on here talking about Tyson beating guys, it's always the same people. Evander and Douglas. I'm not saying he can beat everybody, but those are guys that aren't on his level in his prime.

AKATheMack
03-05-2010, 11:08 AM
At that point Lewis was far from the fighter the he became later and would have been more likely to get into exchanges leading to him being KOd. Tyson had more in him that when he finally met Evander and would stand a much better chance than he did in their 2 fights, but Evanders willpower is unbelievable and may have been enough to frustrate Mike and wear him down. I dont care how old Big George is if your gameplan is to come straight at him you're going to leave unconscious. Mike would land his share of punches and probably bust George up, but once Foreman lands a couple its over.

AKATheMack
03-05-2010, 11:13 AM
So then you agree that Holyfield beats Tyson from 86-90? :haha: if that's your idea of being reasonable then you're an even bigger moron than I thought.

Hate on me cause you're in your 40's and live with your mother, but anybody that knows anything about boxing will tell you that prime 80's Tyson destroys Evander Holyfield, and it's not even close.

The funny part is 99% of the time when I'm on here talking about Tyson beating guys, it's always the same people. Evander and Douglas. I'm not saying he can beat everybody, but those are guys that aren't on his level in his prime.

Tyson would ALWAYS have a tough time with Evander. Evander has great skills accompanied by a great chin and ATG willpower and determination add that to the fact him and Mike are similar in size and its a close fight everytime out. Tyson fans love to blame the Douglas loss on Mikes problems oputside the ring, which no doubt could have played a factor, but the loss has way more to do with Douglas being one of the biggest underachievers the sport has seen and coming in in phenomenal shape for Tyson. The Douglas that showed up to fight Tyson gives damn near any HW in history a rough night.

Ziggy Stardust
03-05-2010, 11:39 AM
So then you agree that Holyfield beats Tyson from 86-90? :haha: if that's your idea of being reasonable then you're an even bigger moron than I thought......but anybody that knows anything about boxing will tell you that prime 80's Tyson destroys Evander Holyfield, and it's not even close

If you're talking about the Holyfield of the mid to late 80s then I'd agree with you that Tyson wins as Holyfield at that point hadn't matured into a Heavyweight yet. If you're talking about a PRIME Holyfield then no, Tyson does NOT win. A prime Holyfield beats a prime Tyson. There's a reason why boxing experts (ie. people PAID to know anything about boxing) consistantly rate Evander higher on their ATG lists than Mike.


Hate on me cause you're in your 40's and live with your mother

And my age is relevent why? Are you one of those little kids who thinks everyone just turns stupid when they hit 30? Got to love these immature skulls full of mush who think they're the smartest peeps on the planet when they don't know fvck all :rofl:


The funny part is 99% of the time when I'm on here talking about Tyson beating guys, it's always the same people. Evander and Douglas. I'm not saying he can beat everybody, but those are guys that aren't on his level in his prime.

Boy that Douglas fight really sticks in your craw doesn't it? :bottle:

Poet

CarlosG815
03-05-2010, 12:02 PM
And my age is relevent why? Are you one of those little kids who thinks everyone just turns stupid when they hit 30? Got to love these immature skulls full of mush who think they're the smartest peeps on the planet when they don't know fvck all :rofl:

Poet

Just stating why I think you're such a pitiful hateful hater. It helps to explain your immature behaviors.

And an ATG list isn't relevant when comparing two fighters. So by your logic if SRR is the #1 P4P fighter, NO MAN in his weight division can beat him? Give me a break. Douglas isn't even on most ATG lists, and he beat Tyson. It happens all the time, so why even bring that up?

When you break down their skills Tyson has him beat in the crucial departments that win fights. One thing that Holyfield had over Tyson was his ability to take a nasty beating and keep on fighting. Yes, he had greater willpower, I believe, as somebody noted earlier, but that isn't enough to overcome the lighting fast barrage of punches that Tyson would deal. Once he had Evander hurt, he would do what he did best - CLOSE.

BTW, cool rainbow, dude. Goes nice with your purple text.

Ziggy Stardust
03-05-2010, 12:34 PM
Just stating why I think you're such a pitiful hateful hater. It helps to explain your immature behaviors.

So can you come up with an explanation for you being a pitiful fan-boi? Hell, even a 20 something should be past juvenile hero worship but apparently you aren't.


And an ATG list isn't relevant when comparing two fighters. So by your logic if SRR is the #1 P4P fighter, NO MAN in his weight division can beat him? Give me a break. Douglas isn't even on most ATG lists, and he beat Tyson. It happens all the time, so why even bring that up?

It's relevent in that if one is ranked higher it means he's ultimately the BETTER fighter. Period. As for the Robinson example; anything can happen in a one-off fight and I believe any ATG fighter is capable of beating any other ATG fighter in his weight class on any given night (assuming there is no prohibitive stylistic mismatch such as Foreman versus short-armed pressure fighters). So while it's UNLIKELY Robinson loses to someone ranked below him, it's not impossible; and if you put Robinson in a 10 fight series with any Welterweight you care to name Ray would undoubtably come out on top.


When you break down their skills Tyson has him beat in the crucial departments that win fights. One thing that Holyfield had over Tyson was his ability to take a nasty beating and keep on fighting. Yes, he had greater willpower, I believe, as somebody noted earlier, but that isn't enough to overcome the lighting fast barrage of punches that Tyson would deal. Once he had Evander hurt, he would do what he did best - CLOSE.

And once again you overrate Tyson's skills.....as do all his true believing KoolAid drinkers. You should seriously just start a cult and get it over with.


BTW, cool rainbow, dude. Goes nice with your purple text.

The color of my font and the album cover in my signature are not germaine to the discussion. Bringing them up just shows that you're firing blanks intellectually.

Poet

AKATheMack
03-05-2010, 12:56 PM
Just stating why I think you're such a pitiful hateful hater. It helps to explain your immature behaviors.

And an ATG list isn't relevant when comparing two fighters. So by your logic if SRR is the #1 P4P fighter, NO MAN in his weight division can beat him? Give me a break. Douglas isn't even on most ATG lists, and he beat Tyson. It happens all the time, so why even bring that up?

When you break down their skills Tyson has him beat in the crucial departments that win fights. One thing that Holyfield had over Tyson was his ability to take a nasty beating and keep on fighting. Yes, he had greater willpower, I believe, as somebody noted earlier, but that isn't enough to overcome the lighting fast barrage of punches that Tyson would deal. Once he had Evander hurt, he would do what he did best - CLOSE.

BTW, cool rainbow, dude. Goes nice with your purple text.

Actually against Tyson the greatest attribute you can have is great willpower and its not like Evander is a walking punching bag, he also happens to have very good skills. I also think you may be overestimating Tysons ability to hurt Evander who we've seen take knee buckling punches from the likes of Riddick and Big George and keep coming.

Toney616
03-05-2010, 01:34 PM
He KO's Lewis and Holyfield.

Foreman, it depends. He could beat 86-90 Foreman KO but prime foreman he'd probably beat in a UD or it'd be a late fight TKO.

Foreman never really impressed me with his skills and abilities.
With Rooney I see Tyson beating Lewis and Holyfield maybe by late stoppage. Post Rooney I think he struggles buts still beats them. Not sure about Foreman, the fight was there to be made any one have any info what happened?

Prime Foreman beats any version of Tyson, especially post Rooney Tyson.

CarlosG815
03-05-2010, 02:35 PM
It's relevent in that if one is ranked higher it means he's ultimately the BETTER fighter. Period. As for the Robinson example; anything can happen in a one-off fight and I believe any ATG fighter is capable of beating any other ATG fighter in his weight class on any given night (assuming there is no prohibitive stylistic mismatch such as Foreman versus short-armed pressure fighters). So while it's UNLIKELY Robinson loses to someone ranked below him, it's not impossible; and if you put Robinson in a 10 fight series with any Welterweight you care to name Ray would undoubtably come out on top.




And once again you overrate Tyson's skills.....as do all his true believing KoolAid drinkers. You should seriously just start a cult and get it over with.




The color of my font and the album cover in my signature are not germaine to the discussion. Bringing them up just shows that you're firing blanks intellectually.

Poet

Typical 40 some year old living in mom's basement Poet. Contributes nothing to a thread, just trolls and tries to instigate with people who have a different opinion from his own, then gets upset when people cheap shot him :bottle: It's obvious that you thrive on instigating, probably because you got beat up a lot when you were young.

That's why nobody likes you, and it explains why you have no friends.

Tyson is well known for his tremendous skill and ability. A guy who was heavyweight champion at 19 is such a chump :Flush:. I've never read a single thread where you give him a shred of credit for anything he's done.

You're just a typical hater. You think by nuthugging boxers from 80 years ago it makes you more credible and more knowledgeable, but in reality it just exposes you as the one dimensional boxing fan you are - nobody today is as good as anybody then, and your favorite boxers of old could beat any boxer today.

Was Tyson not as fast as I'm thinking he is? Were his combination's not as effective as they looked? Was his punching power weaker than it looks on film? What is it, Poet? What am I overestimating when it comes to skill, technique, and ability?

:wave:

Toney616
03-05-2010, 02:45 PM
Tyson would have lost to prime George, lost a Ud to Ali in a fight that was close on the cards, Stopped Liston and either stopped or decisioned Lewis.
I cant see that happening, I think Liston beats any version of Mike.

them_apples
03-05-2010, 02:48 PM
Really?? In what way? Holyfield must have better hand speed? Power? Combinations? Defense?

Oh that's right, next to Tyson, Holyfield was a second rate fighter, and Tyson was Eon's above Holyfield in all those categories.

Don't tell me I'm talking out of my ass unless you can show me something that says otherwise. I can show you Tyson clowning people who were better than Holyfield in the 80's and you tell me that Holyfield can hold his own against Tyson.

The fact is, there wasn't a fighter that could beat Tyson in the 80's. Douglas was a fluke, and 9/10 times he get's KO'd in the first 3 rounds. He had his day, and it was the biggest upset in boxing history.

Don't tell me I'm talking out of my ass when you don't know what the **** you're talking about. Check your film and get back to me.

Holyfield had a tremendous chin and heart, yes he's not as quick as Tyson nor as fast - but he knew what he had to do.

them_apples
03-05-2010, 02:50 PM
I cant see that happening, I think Liston beats any version of Mike.

Liston wasn't good enough to beat Tyson. I love Liston but he's at a huge, HUGE speed disadvantage here, he was a strong dude but I just think once Tyson get's in punching range Liston wouldn't be able to do anything with his 84 reach.

them_apples
03-05-2010, 02:55 PM
If you're talking about the Holyfield of the mid to late 80s then I'd agree with you that Tyson wins as Holyfield at that point hadn't matured into a Heavyweight yet. If you're talking about a PRIME Holyfield then no, Tyson does NOT win. A prime Holyfield beats a prime Tyson. There's a reason why boxing experts (ie. people PAID to know anything about boxing) consistantly rate Evander higher on their ATG lists than Mike.




And my age is relevent why? Are you one of those little kids who thinks everyone just turns stupid when they hit 30? Got to love these immature skulls full of mush who think they're the smartest peeps on the planet when they don't know fvck all :rofl:




Boy that Douglas fight really sticks in your craw doesn't it? :bottle:

Poet

I always thought a prime Holyfield was the 209 lb Holyfield. He was really quick and had sharp punches, an incredible chin and heart. He bulked up specifically to face Tyson and thats when he saw him come in at 220. IMO he never looked as good at that weight but you can see it was useful in trading toe to toe with Tyson.

Toney616
03-05-2010, 02:59 PM
Liston wasn't good enough to beat Tyson. I love Liston but he's at a huge, HUGE speed disadvantage here, he was a strong dude but I just think once Tyson get's in punching range Liston wouldn't be able to do anything with his 84 reach.
Its been a while since Ive seen a liston fight, who did he fight comparable to Tyson?

them_apples
03-05-2010, 03:00 PM
So can you come up with an explanation for you being a pitiful fan-boi? Hell, even a 20 something should be past juvenile hero worship but apparently you aren't.




It's relevent in that if one is ranked higher it means he's ultimately the BETTER fighter. Period. As for the Robinson example; anything can happen in a one-off fight and I believe any ATG fighter is capable of beating any other ATG fighter in his weight class on any given night (assuming there is no prohibitive stylistic mismatch such as Foreman versus short-armed pressure fighters). So while it's UNLIKELY Robinson loses to someone ranked below him, it's not impossible; and if you put Robinson in a 10 fight series with any Welterweight you care to name Ray would undoubtably come out on top.




And once again you overrate Tyson's skills.....as do all his true believing KoolAid drinkers. You should seriously just start a cult and get it over with.




The color of my font and the album cover in my signature are not germaine to the discussion. Bringing them up just shows that you're firing blanks intellectually.

Poet

If they are ranked higher it means overall they are the better fighter as a whole. For example, Ali's style generally did well or decent against every type of fighter, but had the most trouble with pressure fighters that move their heads (Frazier) because Ali was a head hunter.

Foreman crushed Frazier but he had huge problems with someone that could stick and move, the man couldn't pull the trigger with any accuracy.

so, I think, as a whole a fighter may be greater, but this shouldn't be used to determine who beats who.

them_apples
03-05-2010, 03:01 PM
Its been a while since Ive seen a liston fight, who did he fight comparable to Tyson?

Patterson, but Patterson was a middleweight I'm sorry to say.

Toney616
03-05-2010, 03:03 PM
Patterson, but Patterson was a middleweight I'm sorry to say.
Who did Tyson fight who was comparable to Liston in your opinion?

them_apples
03-05-2010, 03:06 PM
Who did Tyson fight who was comparable to Liston in your opinion?

nobody really, Liston had an awkward build - incredible reach, short smallish legs. He boxed as well, he didn't really brawl or look for the KO.


I'm going to say, Tyson and Patterson did have similarities, but keep in mind so did Marvis and Joe Frazier.

Heres my reasons:

Liston is very slow, Tyson starts very fast and is fast.
Liston isn't the "big bear" in this fight. Liston had huge arms, but other than that he's giving up 5-10 lbs in weight.

Toney616
03-05-2010, 03:13 PM
nobody really, Liston had an awkward build - incredible reach, short smallish legs. He boxed as well, he didn't really brawl or look for the KO.


I'm going to say, Tyson and Patterson did have similarities, but keep in mind so did Marvis and Joe Frazier.

Heres my reasons:

Liston is very slow, Tyson starts very fast and is fast.
Liston isn't the "big bear" in this fight. Liston had huge arms, but other than that he's giving up 5-10 lbs in weight.
Theres a good chance that Tyson would be intimidated by Liston (which would affect his game plan) and Tyson was also a front runner who tended to slow down after round 4. If Liston was still there after the round 4 it would be a long night for Tyson

them_apples
03-05-2010, 03:19 PM
Theres a good chance that Tyson would be intimidated by Liston (which would affect his game plan) and Tyson was also a front runner who tended to slow down after round 4. If Liston was still there after the round 4 it would be a long night for Tyson

What you say is partially correct. Tyson did slow down, but only slightly, and it wasn't in round 4. you would start to see him slow down a bit maybe come round 6 or 7 at best. Tyson went 12 rounds effectively in his career - I don't need to bring up references of this i'm sure.

Tyson may have been intimidated, but Liston may have been as well. Liston was scared ****less of Ali, Tyson is no fairy godmother himself.

Toney616
03-05-2010, 03:40 PM
What you say is partially correct. Tyson did slow down, but only slightly, and it wasn't in round 4. you would start to see him slow down a bit maybe come round 6 or 7 at best. Tyson went 12 rounds effectively in his career - I don't need to bring up references of this i'm sure.

Tyson may have been intimidated, but Liston may have been as well. Liston was scared ****less of Ali, Tyson is no fairy godmother himself.
The Tucker fight comes to mind. Did Liston ever use clinching as a form of strategy?

Calilloyd
03-05-2010, 06:39 PM
nobody really, Liston had an awkward build - incredible reach, short smallish legs. He boxed as well, he didn't really brawl or look for the KO.

I'm going to say, Tyson and Patterson did have similarities, but keep in mind so did Marvis and Joe Frazier.
Heres my reasons:

Liston is very slow, Tyson starts very fast and is fast.
Liston isn't the "big bear" in this fight. Liston had huge arms, but other than that he's giving up 5-10 lbs in weight.



No similarities whatsoever between those two. They did not even have the same build. You make some off the wall comments sometime. And Liston had "short smallish legs?" Didn't brawl or "look for the KO?" Did you miss his fights with Cleveland Williams, Patterson, or Ali? You need to stop with your rewriting of history. It's getting old and it's annoying. Liston's peak weight was about the same as Tyson's (212-218) So there is no giving up pounds for either of them.

Calilloyd
03-05-2010, 06:41 PM
What you say is partially correct. Tyson did slow down, but only slightly, and it wasn't in round 4. you would start to see him slow down a bit maybe come round 6 or 7 at best. Tyson went 12 rounds effectively in his career - I don't need to bring up references of this i'm sure.

Tyson may have been intimidated, but Liston may have been as well. Liston was scared ****less of Ali, Tyson is no fairy godmother himself.

No he wasn't.

them_apples
03-05-2010, 06:57 PM
[/B]



No similarities whatsoever between those two. They did not even have the same build. You make some off the wall comments sometime. And Liston had "short smallish legs?" Didn't brawl or "look for the KO?" Did you miss his fights with Cleveland Williams, Patterson, or Ali? You need to stop with your rewriting of history. It's getting old and it's annoying. Liston's peak weight was about the same as Tyson's (212-218) So there is no giving up pounds for either of them.

No similarities? Ok what about buster Mathis jr? I don't need to re-write history to make the point I was trying to make. I thought buddah was hinting at Patterson as a reason to why Liston would hammer Tyson. You probably felt all cool coming in here and throwing some bold statements at me, but regardless I made my point.

and Yes, Liston was scared ****less of Ali, which is why he got battered in the second fight so badly. He even said Ali was a crazy mofo. Ali acted like a nut bag to scare Liston.

Last but not least, Liston had skinny ass legs compared to his upper body. thats my opinion either way.

Anyways, Liston was good but he is no ATG in my book.

American_Ninja
03-05-2010, 07:46 PM
When Tyson won the title in 86 he was the man for 4years and dominated the heavyweight divison by becoming Undisputed champion. The only fighter that gave tyson a fight was Tucker and in the end tyson outpointed him. He dominated Holmes, Spinks and all the other number 1 contenders. What do you think would of happend if tyson fought Holyfield, foreman and Lewis in the 80's before the defeat to douglas in 1990?

Tyson was the best of his era in his prime.

MARKBNLV
03-05-2010, 08:30 PM
Prime Tyson would have been destroyed by a Prime George Forman.

Styles make fights.....

Prime Tyson would have been beaten by Sonny Liston and Muhammad Ali as well.Liston by early KO,and by a close decision to Ali.

Tyson would have destroyed Lewis.

Dont agree Lewis was to big it would be hard for Tyson to hit him flush,i also believe a prime Evander beats a prime Tyson.

CarlosG815
03-05-2010, 11:17 PM
Dont agree Lewis was to big it would be hard for Tyson to hit him flush,i also believe a prime Evander beats a prime Tyson.

90% of Tyson's KO's were guy's of Lewis' size, so wtf are you talking about?

Lewis is the most overrated HW ever. Talk about a snoozer and a guy who fought in a weak era, and still lost to Rahman and Byrd.

ManniePhresh
03-05-2010, 11:20 PM
yes he beats bowe, lewis, holyfield, maybe not foreman thats a 50/50 fight.

nachorjj
03-05-2010, 11:23 PM
Prime Tyson KOs Lewis

Still loses to Big George

Possibly TKOs Holyfield, or decision

Probably you have reason

them_apples
03-06-2010, 07:37 AM
90% of Tyson's KO's were guy's of Lewis' size, so wtf are you talking about?

Lewis is the most overrated HW ever. Talk about a snoozer and a guy who fought in a weak era, and still lost to Rahman and Byrd.

that's not true. Tyson fought big men, but Lewis was huge. Tucker was the only guy who was Lewis' size. Either way when Tucker fought Lewis they looked the same size. Bruno was big as well, I guess he's another offer as well.

You could count Douglas, but i mean - he lost to Douglas.

not 90%. Maybe 15 % of them were Lewis size.

CarlosG815
03-06-2010, 10:30 AM
that's not true. Tyson fought big men, but Lewis was huge. Tucker was the only guy who was Lewis' size. Either way when Tucker fought Lewis they looked the same size. Bruno was big as well, I guess he's another offer as well.

You could count Douglas, but i mean - he lost to Douglas.

not 90%. Maybe 15 % of them were Lewis size.

Not exactly 6'5 but 90% of his opponents were were taller than him (at least 6'1) and had the same build as him.

The truth is, Lennox from a build standpoint, was hand crafted for Tyson's style and I'd imagine a KO would be in order before the 8th round.

HaglerSteelChin
03-06-2010, 11:35 AM
I think its odd that Tyson was going to fight Holyfied if he had beaten Douglas than he lost and the fight of Holy vs Buster happened instead. Holyfied actually made the trip to Japan and saw Douglas win. Than before the whole rape issue after the 2nd Razor Ruddock fight the eventual fight was going to happen but than Tyson gets arrested in Indiana for rape.

To say that Tyson will easily dispose Holyfield is presposterous even the old tyson. Because Holyfied always had a granite chin and was a smart fighter. Tyson had briilliant moments but even during the Bonecrusher and TNT fights he would get frustrated and lose his focus. I think Holyfield would take Tyson to the limit and i can see Tyson winning by points with a KD being the difference-like a 115-112 or 114-113 win for Tyson.

Personally, I think a Prime Foreman beats tyson with possibly a few KD's taken place like the Lyle fight. Ali and even Young to a lesser degree gave a style that was more trobling to Foreman. The Young fight was also Foreman simply not being as sharp due to the excessive heat or the calling of god as he said.

Lewis i will give the edge against any version of Tyson. I wrote about this in a different thread in more detail. Prime Tyson does have the punchers chance and especially since Lewis was Kod by lesser punchers in Mccall and Rahman, but overall i see Lewis using jab and reach and winning by either points or KO. I also think he would do alot of clinching to avoid getting hit with the old tyson combos.

Jim Jeffries
03-06-2010, 11:43 AM
90% of Tyson's KO's were guy's of Lewis' size, so wtf are you talking about?

Lewis is the most overrated HW ever. Talk about a snoozer and a guy who fought in a weak era, and still lost to Rahman and Byrd.

Are you being serious?

Anyhow, Tyson loses to all three, best chance maybe old Foreman.

If he fought Lewis 3 times, Mike might catch him one of those, but he's not winning a decision against Lennox.

Evander is just a bad match up for Mike. Not afraid of him, great chin, and gives back as good as he gets.

AKATheMack
03-06-2010, 12:03 PM
Are you being serious?

Anyhow, Tyson loses to all three, best chance maybe old Foreman.

If he fought Lewis 3 times, Mike might catch him one of those, but he's not winning a decision against Lennox.

Evander is just a bad match up for Mike. Not afraid of him, great chin, and gives back as good as he gets.

I think during that time period LL would have been Mikes best chance. A young LL was more willing to trade and I doubt his chin would hold up. The older LL who wrked behind the jab and tied up on the inside is too big for any version of Mike. An old Foreman is still probably Mikes worse chance because Big George isnt going anywhere and if you come to him eventually hes going to take you out.

crold1
03-06-2010, 12:06 PM
I think during that time period LL would have been Mikes best chance. A young LL was more willing to trade and I doubt his chin would hold up. The older LL who wrked behind the jab and tied up on the inside is too big for any version of Mike. An old Foreman is still probably Mikes worse chance because Big George isnt going anywhere and if you come to him eventually hes going to take you out.

Lewis was interesting. His best technical period doesn't match precisely with his best physical period. The hand speed he had in the early 90s wasn't as there in the late 90s, but he was less vulnerable and his feet were better. Thing to like about Lewis is he performed better in spots where more expected him to lose. He wasn't as good as a prohibitive favorite.

Jim Jeffries
03-06-2010, 12:11 PM
I think during that time period LL would have been Mikes best chance. A young LL was more willing to trade and I doubt his chin would hold up. The older LL who wrked behind the jab and tied up on the inside is too big for any version of Mike. An old Foreman is still probably Mikes worse chance because Big George isnt going anywhere and if you come to him eventually hes going to take you out.

You know what, bit of a brain fart this early on my part. Lennox was hella green 86-90, so you're right. Though his late 92 destruction of Ruddock was pretty impressive, so maybe a couple years later, though I guess Mike was behind bars by then.

Old George improved his jab drastically over his younger incarnation, but he wasn't the aggressive, destructive force he was then either. It is too bad that Mike chose to fight nobody Douglas instead of Evander or George.

crold1
03-06-2010, 12:27 PM
You know what, bit of a brain fart this early on my part. Lennox was hella green 86-90, so you're right. Though his late 92 destruction of Ruddock was pretty impressive, so maybe a couple years later, though I guess Mike was behind bars by then.

Old George improved his jab drastically over his younger incarnation, but he wasn't the aggressive, destructive force he was then either. It is too bad that Mike chose to fight nobody Douglas instead of Evander or George.

86-90? Lewis was in the amateurs most of that time. I definitely pick 88 Mike over Gold Medal Lewis. :)

Ziggy Stardust
03-06-2010, 03:08 PM
Typical 40 some year old living in mom's basement Poet. Contributes nothing to a thread, just trolls and tries to instigate with people who have a different opinion from his own, then gets upset when people cheap shot him. It's obvious that you thrive on instigating, probably because you got beat up a lot when you were young.

That's why nobody likes you, and it explains why you have no friends.

Tyson is well known for his tremendous skill and ability. A guy who was heavyweight champion at 19 is such a chump. I've never read a single thread where you give him a shred of credit for anything he's done.

You're just a typical hater. You think by nuthugging boxers from 80 years ago it makes you more credible and more knowledgeable, but in reality it just exposes you as the one dimensional boxing fan you are - nobody today is as good as anybody then, and your favorite boxers of old could beat any boxer today.

Was Tyson not as fast as I'm thinking he is? Were his combination's not as effective as they looked? Was his punching power weaker than it looks on film? What is it, Poet? What am I overestimating when it comes to skill, technique, and ability?

:bottle: Try using logic and reason.....no wait: You aren't capable of that! Every post you make is the emotional spasm of a true believer that's offended that someone doesn't rate his boy as high as he does. Newsflash Junior: Not everyone is going to worship at the alter of your favorite fighter. Better get used to it :tragedy:

Poet

crold1
03-06-2010, 03:29 PM
I think Holyfield was fine to fight Tyson by 89-90. Douglas beat Holyfield to the punch, but the "L" was coming. I just don't see any way for Tyson to win. Holyfield was more shot than Tyson physically already in 96 but, in both fights, showed off why he could win.

He could take the shot and was never going to be scared.

Tyson caught him in both fights but Holy could take the shots. His short left out of the clinches (and Tyson rarely fought out of clinches) was going to catch Mike all night even then and wear him down.

I think Holy actually beats him even worse if they fight when originally proposed because he threw more and had better legs then. Just more man than Mike.

CarlosG815
03-06-2010, 03:33 PM
:bottle: Try using logic and reason.....no wait: You aren't capable of that! Every post you make is the emotional spasm of a true believer that's offended that someone doesn't rate his boy as high as he does. Newsflash Junior: Not everyone is going to worship at the alter of your favorite fighter. Better get used to it :tragedy:

Poet

Funny, all I did was answer the original question, and you popped your "least eligible bachelor" head in and started with the name calling. What aren't you getting? If you don't instigate, there is no drama. Get a job.

HaglerSteelChin
03-06-2010, 06:47 PM
Holyfield was more shot than Tyson physically already in 96 but, in both fights, showed off why he could win.

Excellent Point. I remember days before the fight many boxing commentators were saying that Holyfield should retire he has the money and a heart condition. Holyfield was a BIG underdog for that fight. Sure some like Donald Trump said they bet on the Real Deal and made $$$ but many had odds like 6 or 8 -1. Everyone remember the exact odds?

If that Holyfield did what he did in 96 than we shouldnt count out the 1990 Holyfield vs Tyson.

Ziggy Stardust
03-07-2010, 10:33 AM
Funny, all I did was answer the original question, and you popped your "least eligible bachelor" head in and started with the name calling. What aren't you getting? If you don't instigate, there is no drama. Get a job.

What you posted was a propaganda piece for your favorite fighter. This isn't NSB: You should post over there with the other demented fan-bois not in the Boxing History section. People come here to have serious boxing discussions not to read fan letters and if you make that sort of post in here you WILL get called out on it. If you don't spam the Boxing History section with abject nuthuggery then there's no drama. Get a brain.

Poet

crold1
03-07-2010, 10:44 AM
Excellent Point. I remember days before the fight many boxing commentators were saying that Holyfield should retire he has the money and a heart condition. Holyfield was a BIG underdog for that fight. Sure some like Donald Trump said they bet on the Real Deal and made $$$ but many had odds like 6 or 8 -1. Everyone remember the exact odds?

If that Holyfield did what he did in 96 than we shouldnt count out the 1990 Holyfield vs Tyson.

The fight opened at 18-1 and dropped to about 6-1 by fight night. However, that was based on a flawed thought that Holy was WAY more gone than he evidently was.

CarlosG815
03-07-2010, 10:45 AM
What you posted was a propaganda piece for your favorite fighter. This isn't NSB: You should post over there with the other demented fan-bois not in the Boxing History section. People come here to have serious boxing discussions not to read fan letters and if you make that sort of post in here you WILL get called out on it. If you don't spam the Boxing History section with abject nuthuggery then there's no drama. Get a brain.

Poet


If you didn't notice, I wasn't the only one who believed Tyson could beat them all in 86-90.

A lot of people share that opinion, and there is a lot of evidence out there in history to support that. I think from 86-90 anybody could make a very strong case that Tyson beats ANYBODY. Face it. You started **** for no reason other than you have nothing else to do, and now you're trying to make it out as if you had a reason, when you know deep in the back of your mind that your childish instigating bull**** is baseless.

And BTW, I've never seen a single thread that involves you that is a "serious boxing discussion." You are well known to come and troll a thread without contributing ANYTHING to it, and it ends up just like this one.

You came into this thread, not to have "a serious discussion" but to take a cheap shot at me. As a matter of fact, that's all that you did, so don't try to make it seem like you come here for serious discussion, as I'm sure a lot of people would agree, coming from you, that's laughable.


You know you're in the wrong. I won't ask you to admit it, as your internet behavior speaks volumes about your personality and I just don't see a person like you ever admitting they're wrong, but just take the first step and let this one go.

AKATheMack
03-07-2010, 11:17 AM
You know what, bit of a brain fart this early on my part. Lennox was hella green 86-90, so you're right. Though his late 92 destruction of Ruddock was pretty impressive, so maybe a couple years later, though I guess Mike was behind bars by then.

Old George improved his jab drastically over his younger incarnation, but he wasn't the aggressive, destructive force he was then either. It is too bad that Mike chose to fight nobody Douglas instead of Evander or George.

Im even more pissed Douglas allowed himself to be remembered as a nobody. If he had shown the dedication he showed in the Tyson fight we may be asking ourselves if anybody could have beaten Douglas 90-94 or so. Tyson was a monster offensive fighter, but Evander and George both share an attribute with 1990 Douglas, the ability to take Mikes shots and keep coming. Big George had slowed considerably and could be outboxed, but I cant see any fighter in history bringing the fight to George Foreman and not ending up on their back.

Prinsemanspoper
03-07-2010, 11:33 AM
I'm not sure why people continue to claim that Tyson ducked foreman.It seems people forget,for weren't around at the time that foreman was regarded as a big,fat stupid joke.Most regarded his comeback as such too.


There was nothing to gain in Tyson fighting this fat old man as he was too busy clearing his division of real contenders and making a **** load of money doing so.


Just try to ignore Poet.

He is just a hater and a racist.

AKATheMack
03-07-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm not sure why people continue to claim that Tyson ducked foreman.It seems people forget,for weren't around at the time that foreman was regarded as a big,fat stupid joke.Most regarded his comeback as such too.


There was nothing to gain in Tyson fighting this fat old man as he was too busy clearing his division of real contenders and making a **** load of money doing so.


Just try to ignore Poet.

He is just a hater and a racist.

That is completely true and there was no upside for Tyson in fighting George, but I believe Mike knew that Big George was still a horrible stylistic match up for him. Fighting George at that point would have still have been as legitimate as fighting Douglas.

crold1
03-07-2010, 11:37 AM
I'm not sure why people continue to claim that Tyson ducked foreman.It seems people forget,for weren't around at the time that foreman was regarded as a big,fat stupid joke.Most regarded his comeback as such too.


There was nothing to gain in Tyson fighting this fat old man as he was too busy clearing his division of real contenders and making a **** load of money doing so.


Just try to ignore Poet.

He is just a hater and a racist.

By 1990, Don saw $ signs as did everyone else. The reason the 'ducking' claim comes up (and it was never quite a formal duck) is because of the people in Tyson's circle who have stated over the years that Foreman was the one guy Tyson ever seemed wary of. He WANTED Holyfield, and was pissed to have to fight Douglas rather than going straight to him. The quote I always remember, and its second hand, is Mike allegedly telling Don, "You want, you fight him" as regards Foreman.

Calilloyd
03-08-2010, 03:52 PM
No similarities? Ok what about buster Mathis jr? I don't need to re-write history to make the point I was trying to make. I thought buddah was hinting at Patterson as a reason to why Liston would hammer Tyson. You probably felt all cool coming in here and throwing some bold statements at me, but regardless I made my point.

and Yes, Liston was scared ****less of Ali, which is why he got battered in the second fight so badly. He even said Ali was a crazy mofo. Ali acted like a nut bag to scare Liston.




Last but not least, Liston had skinny ass legs compared to his upper body. thats my opinion either way.



Anyways, Liston was good but he is no ATG in my book.

Liston never said he was scared of Ali. You're making things up now.
You can think whatever you want about Liston but when you start rewriting his career, that's a different story.

Toney616
03-08-2010, 04:32 PM
By 1990, Don saw $ signs as did everyone else. The reason the 'ducking' claim comes up (and it was never quite a formal duck) is because of the people in Tyson's circle who have stated over the years that Foreman was the one guy Tyson ever seemed wary of. He WANTED Holyfield, and was pissed to have to fight Douglas rather than going straight to him. The quote I always remember, and its second hand, is Mike allegedly telling Don, "You want, you fight him" as regards Foreman.
When Tyson was still with Bill Clayton they had planned a world tour that would of ended with him taking on Foreman. I think the reason Tyson didnt want to fight Foreman later on was because he knew he wasnt training properly anymore after he left Rooney.