I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

^

Worst. Post. Ever.

^

Worst. Post. Ever.

Explain. I have never thought Ali to be the greatest myself, so this post doesn't bother me.

But in reference to George, Ali did whip his ass and George was in much more prime shape at the time.

Explain. I have never thought Ali to be the greatest myself, so this post doesn't bother me.

But in reference to George, Ali did whip his ass and George was in much more prime shape at the time.

I have no problem with someone saying that Ali wasn't the greatest of all-time. But I do have a problem with someone trying to discredit everything he did.

He pretty much tried to put down all of Ali's wins and added extra credit to his losses. He also tried to use publicity as a reason of why he's not that good.

I have no problem with someone saying that Ali wasn't the greatest of all-time. But I do have a problem with someone trying to discredit everything he did.

He pretty much tried to put down all of Ali's wins and added extra credit to his losses. He also tried to use publicity as a reason of why he's not that good.

He was a genius when it came to the media. Watch any of his interviews, they were incredible.

And if you ask 10 average people who the greatest boxer of all time is, I would bet that 9 will say Ali, even though they've never seen an entire fight, nor watched any other fighter.

What he posted is basically things that a lot of people already know. It isn't just Ali, it's everybody.

Mike Tyson is my favorite boxer and the best heavyweight of all time, IMO, and I know a lot of what he said above is true for Tyson as well.

appreciate the post, some fair points. but 15 is the lamest excuse ever for discrediting a legit win

He was a genius when it came to the media. Watch any of his interviews, they were incredible.

And if you ask 10 average people who the greatest boxer of all time is, I would bet that 9 will say Ali, even though they've never seen an entire fight, nor watched any other fighter.

What he posted is basically things that a lot of people already know. It isn't just Ali, it's everybody.

Mike Tyson is my favorite boxer and the best heavyweight of all time, IMO, and I know a lot of what he said above is true for Tyson as well.

Those "average people" don't know much about boxing, though. So why does it matter what they think? This is a website where people (hopefully) know their stuff about boxing.

Let me just take three random parts out of what the TS said:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.
He bashed Ali for not fighting the top contenders, when he was just starting out his career.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.
At the time when Ali fought Jones, Ali was rated as the number 2 contender and Jones the number 3. How's that for a top contender?

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.
He just implied that Ali was at his best, after being out of the ring for three years. :pat:

^

Worst. Post. Ever.

Not really. This what you get from someone who just hates a fighter. You can see junk like this every hour in NSB.

But possibly the worst ever in the boxing history section.

:lol1: anybodies competition can be broken down that way. :lol1:

Lennox fought ppl out of their prime
Mayweather competition can be broken down that ways and same for Tyson.
So whats his point?

he even made accusations of match fixing.

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.



You have pretty much eliminated Ali as a fighter from having anything to do with his reputation. His resume as a HW is second to none imo and compares favourably to pretty much any p4p atg. Whilst he wasn't without a weakness he had one hell of a skill set. Put that with the fact of his longevity and the fact that we probably still never saw the best of him and you have a fighter with a richly deserved reputation. For me SRR was the greatest but I have yet to see a HW who I could confidently say would beat a prime Ali



The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.



Hardly a flaw, it would be a stupid fighter who didn't take the path of least resistance to a title shot. Also there are always fighters missing of a fighters resume due to time lines etc but it is a real reach to find too many on Ali's resume


2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

Bit of an exagerated urban myth has gone on about this fight and the length of delay. The fact of it was the ropes cushioned Ali's fall and he got up from every hard punch he ever took so it is conjecture to say that Cooper's would have done for him.
Don't forget he finished Copper in the next round so wasn't showing too many ill effects.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

Ali won this comfortably, Jones gave a good account by Ali won. Jones was coming off a win against Folley, so you can't have it both ways was Folley a contender or not?


4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

This is hindsight. Coming into the first Liston fight I and pretty much everyone else thought Ali/Clay would be KO'd within 4 rounds.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

I've never been comfortable with the KO but I don't think Liston took a dive for money. What went through his mind we can only speculate. That said I think that Ali had Liston's measure and maybe Liston realised that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

Wouldn't be the first fighter to take the odd easy match. If they paid more than a journeyman would then why not? He was after all the WORLD champion.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

Maybe to the man in the street, personally I don't think it effected his stature as a boxer to boxing fans one way or other, certainly not to me. If anything it robbed us of his peak, can you think who would have beaten him in that era? He might well have disposed of a rushed green Frazier easily and we would have been robbed of 2 great fights, who can say?

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

I had this for Frazier, I know there is a school of thought that Ali one but not to my eyes.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

It's called ringcraft, any great fighter does what he can get away with. Marciano, Armstrong, Duran etc etc

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

Foreman changes with the wind on this. In facing Ali he says the drugged drink was an excuse he pulled out of the air.

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

I gave the 3rd to Norton and have seen worse decisions than giving Norton the 2nd fight too. That said Ali wouldn't be the first champion or big name to be given the benefit of the doubt. Norton was Ali's bogeyman, doesn't make him a better fighter or diminish Ali imo.


12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

Ali was losing the fight but whilst Lyle wasn't knocked down he has in trouble. He took countless punches without replying for 30 seconds, maybe the referee did stop it a touch early but rather too early than too late.
To my eyes Lyle was done, yes he argued the stoppage as he passively follwed Ali to Ali's corner, dazed.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

Frazier was in decline as was Ali, great fight and the last hurrah of 2 atg's

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

This is one of those fights that Young wins more rounds by the year. I would have given the nod to Young but it was by no means a shut out.

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

Yes Ali faked Shavers out and had Shavers gone all or nothing who knows? That said no one ever KO'd Ali so it is speculation that Shavers would have. Had Shavers gone more hell for leather in the eraly rounds you could easily say his suspect stamina might have let him down in the later rounds.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

I wouldn't argue with either point, Ali was a shell and Spinks was extremely limited. I personally draw the line under Ali with the Shavers fight.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

Ali was finished, this fight does neither him or Holmes any credit.
I would grant you that by 1977 Holmes could have beaten Ali but I wouldn't neccessary say that Ali ducked Holmes. Its the old risk versus reward Ali would fight Godzilla if the money was right. If there is no more money in the pot he'd rather fight a Spinks or a Evangelista, thats the game.
Also lets not forget they were both top 10 ranked.

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.


Doesn't every high-profile prospect get catered to until they are in prime? you won't see many big name prospects put in the ring with a guy that management thinks is a tough match-up for them.


2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

If Chico didn't spit his mouth guard out against Castillo he would have got his bell rung, but I rarely hear people attempt to discredit his win.



3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

If you want to beat the champion you have "beat him". If you want to beat the champion you have to win decisively. for example Clottey and Cotto, Cotto was the champion so in the event of a tight match normally the Challenger gets snubbed.



4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

Perhaps but the 1 round he did fight in he was good enough to destroy Floyd Patterson. If Liston was in such bad shape I don't think he would have wrecked Patterson so effortlessly.




5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

Second fight to me is fishy so I'll give you that, but if Liston was as unstable as you make him out to be who is to say he simply lost his confidence and quit against Ali?



6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

I think Ali has fought more Hall of Famers and won than almost every if not every Heavyweight champion of all time so complaining about his fights with bums is kind of silly.



7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

True



8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

This was certainly not Ali at his best. It was post-prime Ali showing he could win in different ways. Not many fighters can come back after a 4 year lay-off and beat HOF heavyweights who were in their prime.



9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.


There are alot of fighters who hold much more than Ali without warning. Wladmir Klitschko holds way more than Ali, should he be warned and or have points deducted?


10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?


Ali didn't give a rematch because he knew if they fought again Foreman would not fall for his trick of letting him punch himself out. Ali won this fight off pure wits and strategy and he knew that he couldn't beat Foreman again with Foreman knowing his strategy so he didn't give him a rematch in my opinion. S


11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.


Personally I think Norton won the third fight but nor the second. I think though the fight was close enough that again if the judges lean towards the champion it is not a surprise.


12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.


Lyle wasn't fighting back. Lyle can complain all he wants but he was getting strafed by Ali and was wobbling all over the ring. If he didn't want the fight stopped he needs to punch.


13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.


Ali was just as washed up as Frazier.


15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.


But he was faked out and lost. If Foreman didn't land that bomb on Moorer he would have lost and Moorer should have been champ, but Foreman did land the punch and Moorer lost his championship. Should of/Could of/Would doesn't have much value.


16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.


You said it yourself Ali was washed up.

Tyson lost to Danny Williams.
Holmes lost to Brian Nielson.
Holyfield lost to Larry Donald.

Should we discredit those HW's for there losses to weak opposition too when they were way past prime?


17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.


At this stage in Ali's career claiming Ali ducked anyone is silly, he was a shell of a great champion. Holmes himself struggled against guys with good jabs ala Witherspoon and Norton. Ali has a good jab and far superior footwork and hand speed to those guys what makes you so sure Holmes could handle Ali's so much better.



I'm afraid though this discussion is going to turn into a name-calling middle school yelling match instead of a good discussion, but I'll put my two cents in before the name calling starts. I'd type more but the Purdue - Ohio State game is about to start and I want some good seats.

I've seen a lot of threads like this over the years and they all just fail really badly.(Some of them are even meant as joke threads) Ali is ranked where he should be, which is consistlently as the #1 all time heavyweight and top 5 or 3 all time pound for pound. The thing where they all go wrong is, if you do this to Ali, where does it leave the rest? Then you can do the same to all the other greats.

Mike Tyson is my favorite boxer and the best heavyweight of all time, IMO, and I know a lot of what he said above is true for Tyson as well.

You could more easily chop up Tyson's record than Ali's.
There are 4 atg fighters on Tyson's record, a washed up Holmes, a light heavyweight Spinks and Holyfield and Lewis whom he lost to.
Granted he was past prime against both Holyfield and Lewis but if you knock those losses out then you have to knock out the Holmes and Spinks wins as they too were both post prime.
Ali has wins over Liston, Foreman and Frazier, Tyson doesn't even begin to compete with those. Tyson is a top ten atg HW but he doesn't get near Ali

Ali wasn't **** but a heavyweight with footwork.

I don't give a damn who he faught. In that day and age, no one knew how to fight a heavyweight who faught like a lightweight. Back then, heavyweights were expected to stand flatfooted and duke it out. Ali ran around the ring throwing jabs and maybe a right cross here and there.

Not to mention Frazier was ****ing robbed in their last showdown. The ended the fight because of his mouth bleeding. What kind of **** is that? Frazier was still ready to go. Ali on the otherside of the ring was telling his coach that he wasn't going to fight PERIOD. Then passed out right after the bell rung. Gtfoh, if you don't think that was highway robbery, grand theft auto, and assault with a deadly weapon all in one crime. :nonono:

Ali faught great guys but all of them were one dimensional. Now-a-days, that **** don't work. Vitali would beat his ass, Holyfield in the 90s would beat his ass, Tyson on a good day would beat his ass, Lennox would beat his ass, hell Donovan Ruddock would probably whoop his ass too.

jab-jab-jab-jab-right cross.... is ****ing amateur. He never went to the body. His hands were always down at his sides.

Best of that era... I agree.

Best of all time.... HELL no.

You could more easily chop up Tyson's record than Ali's.
There are 4 atg fighters on Tyson's record, a washed up Holmes, a light heavyweight Spinks and Holyfield and Lewis whom he lost to.
Granted he was past prime against both Holyfield and Lewis but if you knock those losses out then you have to knock out the Holmes and Spinks wins as they too were both post prime.
Ali has wins over Liston, Foreman and Frazier, Tyson doesn't even begin to compete with those. Tyson is a top ten atg HW but he doesn't get near Ali

I still think Tyson beats Ali.

It's all opinion.

Not to mention Frazier was ****ing robbed in their last showdown. The ended the fight because of his mouth bleeding. What kind of **** is that?



frazier robbed himself during that fight.He robbed himself of his own manhood by quitting on his stool rather than going out like a man and getting his brittle chin cracked by his feather fisted superior.


Nothing to do with a cut mouth I'm afraid.I wouldn't expect an mmgay fan to know any better,so your ignorance is forgiven.

You have pretty much eliminated Ali as a fighter from having anything to do with his reputation. His resume as a HW is second to none imo and compares favourably to pretty much any p4p atg. Whilst he wasn't without a weakness he had one hell of a skill set. Put that with the fact of his longevity and the fact that we probably still never saw the best of him and you have a fighter with a richly deserved reputation. For me SRR was the greatest but I have yet to see a HW who I could confidently say would beat a prime Ali



Hardly a flaw, it would be a stupid fighter who didn't take the path of least resistance to a title shot. Also there are always fighters missing of a fighters resume due to time lines etc but it is a real reach to find too many on Ali's resume


Bit of an exagerated urban myth has gone on about this fight and the length of delay. The fact of it was the ropes cushioned Ali's fall and he got up from every hard punch he ever took so it is conjecture to say that Cooper's would have done for him.
Don't forget he finished Copper in the next round so wasn't showing too many ill effects.

Ali won this comfortably, Jones gave a good account by Ali won. Jones was coming off a win against Folley, so you can't have it both ways was Folley a contender or not?


This is hindsight. Coming into the first Liston fight I and pretty much everyone else thought Ali/Clay would be KO'd within 4 rounds.

I've never been comfortable with the KO but I don't think Liston took a dive for money. What went through his mind we can only speculate. That said I think that Ali had Liston's measure and maybe Liston realised that.

Wouldn't be the first fighter to take the odd easy match. If they paid more than a journeyman would then why not? He was after all the WORLD champion.

Maybe to the man in the street, personally I don't think it effected his stature as a boxer to boxing fans one way or other, certainly not to me. If anything it robbed us of his peak, can you think who would have beaten him in that era? He might well have disposed of a rushed green Frazier easily and we would have been robbed of 2 great fights, who can say?

I had this for Frazier, I know there is a school of thought that Ali one but not to my eyes.

It's called ringcraft, any great fighter does what he can get away with. Marciano, Armstrong, Duran etc etc

Foreman changes with the wind on this. In facing Ali he says the drugged drink was an excuse he pulled out of the air.

I gave the 3rd to Norton and have seen worse decisions than giving Norton the 2nd fight too. That said Ali wouldn't be the first champion or big name to be given the benefit of the doubt. Norton was Ali's bogeyman, doesn't make him a better fighter or diminish Ali imo.


Ali was losing the fight but whilst Lyle wasn't knocked down he has in trouble. He took countless punches without replying for 30 seconds, maybe the referee did stop it a touch early but rather too early than too late.
To my eyes Lyle was done, yes he argued the stoppage as he passively follwed Ali to Ali's corner, dazed.

Frazier was in decline as was Ali, great fight and the last hurrah of 2 atg's

This is one of those fights that Young wins more rounds by the year. I would have given the nod to Young but it was by no means a shut out.

Yes Ali faked Shavers out and had Shavers gone all or nothing who knows? That said no one ever KO'd Ali so it is speculation that Shavers would have. Had Shavers gone more hell for leather in the eraly rounds you could easily say his suspect stamina might have let him down in the later rounds.

I wouldn't argue with either point, Ali was a shell and Spinks was extremely limited. I personally draw the line under Ali with the Shavers fight.

Ali was finished, this fight does neither him or Holmes any credit.
I would grant you that by 1977 Holmes could have beaten Ali but I wouldn't neccessary say that Ali ducked Holmes. Its the old risk versus reward Ali would fight Godzilla if the money was right. If there is no more money in the pot he'd rather fight a Spinks or a Evangelista, thats the game.
Also lets not forget they were both top 10 ranked.

You took the words out of my mouth. As always, GJC, you are a hell of a poster!!!!!!!!!

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.I thought that the palindrome, Mark Kram passed away a few years ago....

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

Foreman got knocked the **** out, he should be happy Ali didnt hit him with another Right Hand while he was falling.
Foreman allways makes Excuses why he lost the fight in Zaire, but Fact is he was in his Prime, and he shouldnt have got his Ass beaten to an Ali who barely beat Norton like he himself said.
He can be happy he never faced the Clay of 64 who was dancing Circles around Liston.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

U r One of them

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

U r talking about Alis Career after he beat Foreman in Zaire, he didnt get the Support he got from 75-82 in the 60s.
When he was actually an Incredible Skilled Fighter as Cassius Clay in the 60s, Ppl were calling Dempsey the greatest, not Ali.

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

Ali was not the one who needed 42 Fights to get a Title-Shot
Who did Foreman fight in his first 3 years as a pro?, who did Marciano fight in his whole Career?, Dempsey?
Did they had better Opponents than Ali, when they were just 18-20 years old ?
Marciano was defending his Title against 42 years old Moore, Ali made Fun of Moore, he even predicted the Round the Old Mongoose will get KOd.
He was rhyming the round he was gonna Knock Out archie on his Last Name
Thats all i can say about the Quality Opponents other Greats had to face..

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

Ali TKO5 Cooper

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

It could have gone either Way.. it didnt, Axel Schulz also beat Foreman, did u forget about that?
or Walcott > Joe Louis
La Starza > Marciano
Ted Lowry (175LBS) > Marciano
Marcer - Lennox
Ali vs Doug Jones wasnt even half as close as those Fights, but the main point is to find something to ***** about


4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

Liston KO1 Patterson, twice - yeah, he was just waiting to get owned by the next Contender.
Funny, while Liston was waiting, there was no Joe Frazier who could take him out.
But when did Frazier ever take out a Puncher like Liston :D?


Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that

I knew something was wrong with you, to make a Comment like that, u need a very good Experience in getting KTFO

I still think Tyson beats Ali.

It's all opinion.
Its all about opinion and you are very entitled to yours.
Tyson was a very good fighter but I think Ali is a very bad match up for him.
Foreman is a terrible style match up for Tyson but i'd give him more chance there than against Ali.
I think that many think that Tyson has a good chance because Ali struggled with Frazier but Tyson and Frazier are very different styles. Tyson doesn't have Frazier's inside ability or Frazier's mental toughness.

You took the words out of my mouth. As always, GJC, you are a hell of a poster!!!!!!!!!
Bless you for that Silva, though I think I beat DeepSleep by a short head with my post lol

Its all about opinion and you are very entitled to yours.
Tyson was a very good fighter but I think Ali is a very bad match up for him.
Foreman is a terrible style match up for Tyson but i'd give him more chance there than against Ali.
I think that many think that Tyson has a good chance because Ali struggled with Frazier but Tyson and Frazier are very different styles. Tyson doesn't have Frazier's inside ability or Frazier's mental toughness.

Did you seriously just say that? Have you ever watched the footage? If you mean he doesn't get hit in the face as much as Frazier when he's on the inside then I agree. Tyson could get inside without being touched, whereas Frazier would use his face to block shots as he made his way inside.

Well like somebody else said you can break down anybodies record like that. Ali was hardly the darling the boxing promoters made him look like but I still think he was the greatest HW of all time. And you can't compare him to tyson. Tyson was just a glorified bum beater. Ali wouldve finished him in the 1st round....

Did you seriously just say that? Have you ever watched the footage? If you mean he doesn't get hit in the face as much as Frazier when he's on the inside then I agree. Tyson could get inside without being touched, whereas Frazier would use his face to block shots as he made his way inside.

Agreed Frazier would take shots to get inside but once he got on a fighters chest he was devastating.
I think you would struggle to find me an example of Tyson being effective inside, but I would point you to the Bonecrusher fight.
If Smith could tie up Tyson, Ali would wrap him up and put him in his pocket.

frazier robbed himself during that fight.He robbed himself of his own manhood by quitting on his stool rather than going out like a man and getting his brittle chin cracked by his feather fisted superior.


Nothing to do with a cut mouth I'm afraid.I wouldn't expect an mmgay fan to know any better,so your ignorance is forgiven.

Are you ****ing stupid?

Frazier didn't do **** to end that fight. He was outraged when the ref called the fight. The ref ended the fight because of Frazier's cut up mouth. The ref told him "don't worry son, everyone will remember this fight."

While Ali was over in the other corner telling his coach how he wasn't going to continue no matter what. Then passing out right when the ref ended the fight.

If that fight would have continue Ali would have lost. And it undebateable because in no time at all Ali passed out after the fight was called over. Not to mention HE SAID HIMSELF, that he wasn't going to continue. :nonono:

Thats a robbery if I have ever seen one.

Are you ****ing stupid?

Frazier didn't do **** to end that fight. He was outraged when the ref called the fight. The ref ended the fight because of Frazier's cut up mouth. The ref told him "don't worry son, everyone will remember this fight."

While Ali was over in the other corner telling his coach how he wasn't going to continue no matter what. Then passing out right when the ref ended the fight.

If that fight would have continue Ali would have lost. And it undebateable because in no time at all Ali passed out after the fight was called over. Not to mention HE SAID HIMSELF, that he wasn't going to continue. :nonono:

Thats a robbery if I have ever seen one.

did you watch the entire fight or just some half assed documentary? it was a back n forth fight ending with frazier getting owned in the 14th....lol at a robbery when his own corner stopped the fight...dont bother arguing just do some research...

Are you ****ing stupid?

Frazier didn't do **** to end that fight. He was outraged when the ref called the fight. The ref ended the fight because of Frazier's cut up mouth. The ref told him "don't worry son, everyone will remember this fight."

While Ali was over in the other corner telling his coach how he wasn't going to continue no matter what. Then passing out right when the ref ended the fight.

If that fight would have continue Ali would have lost. And it undebateable because in no time at all Ali passed out after the fight was called over. Not to mention HE SAID HIMSELF, that he wasn't going to continue. :nonono:

Thats a robbery if I have ever seen one.




You will be looking in the mirror and asking yourself that question once you actually start learning something about the sport.Watching "Da Pacman" and hbo 24/7 doesn't make you a boxing fan.


I really don't know how far I can take an argument with an mmgay fan who not only hasn't watched fight in question,but doesn't even know the details of fight in question.....but I will do my best.


You will not find one source that will tell you that the referee stopped the fight,why you may ask? It may have something to do with the fact that no ring official did stop it.So not only are you an obvious newb,but you couldn't even run along to boxrec like the average newb would.


frazier did "****" by telling his corner to stop the fight,hence the corner retirement.He could no longer take the savage beating he was receiving from his feather fisted superior.


Watching a documentary clearly doesn't give a clueless mmgay fan such as yourself a very good insight.



Stick to mmgay in future,there's a good lad.

My understanding of it was that neither the referee nor Frazier stopped the fight, it was Eddie Futch. Futch had noticed that Frazier could barely see and gave him one more round, the fourteenth. When Frazier took even more punishment in that round he stopped the fight over Frazier's objections. I have never bought into the legend that Ali would not have come out for the 15th, Ali like Frazier was a warrior and both would have been there at the start of the 15th if they had their way.

as much as i love the man, i've always thought that some of his better wins get overrated.

I KNEW the retards on both sides of this would crawl out of the woodwork as soon as they saw this thread :ugh:

Poet

Ali wasn't **** but a heavyweight with footwork.

I don't give a damn who he faught. In that day and age, no one knew how to fight a heavyweight who faught like a lightweight. Back then, heavyweights were expected to stand flatfooted and duke it out. Ali ran around the ring throwing jabs and maybe a right cross here and there.

Not to mention Frazier was ****ing robbed in their last showdown. The ended the fight because of his mouth bleeding. What kind of **** is that? Frazier was still ready to go. Ali on the otherside of the ring was telling his coach that he wasn't going to fight PERIOD. Then passed out right after the bell rung. Gtfoh, if you don't think that was highway robbery, grand theft auto, and assault with a deadly weapon all in one crime. :nonono:

Ali faught great guys but all of them were one dimensional. Now-a-days, that **** don't work. Vitali would beat his ass, Holyfield in the 90s would beat his ass, Tyson on a good day would beat his ass, Lennox would beat his ass, hell Donovan Ruddock would probably whoop his ass too.

jab-jab-jab-jab-right cross.... is ****ing amateur. He never went to the body. His hands were always down at his sides.

Best of that era... I agree.

Best of all time.... HELL no.

To be honest Flicker I'll give you that Lewis would trouble Ali, but Vitali? Vitali couldn't handle a guy who stood right in front of him and could match him jab for jab such as Lewis. Ali has the reach to jab with Vitali and the footwork to exploit the plodding Vitali and the hand speed to really give him big problems. You are underestimating Ali's foot speed and hand speed at his prime. Even if Ali was just a Heavyweight with great footwork his ability to punch without ever having to set his feet is a trait that alone lets him beat slower guys. Vitali is a good fighter no doubt but he is way too slow too handle Ali.

When you have a 81" reach and can punch with force without having to set your feet why should Ali throw anything but 1-2's? Tyson and Holyfield would have to beat Ali in a similar fashion to how Frazier beat him, by swarming but considering that Frazier barely beat a old Ali, I can't imagine either Holyfield or Tyson beating Ali.

Both Tyson and Holyfield would get shredded in similar fashions. Chasing Ali all over the ring while they got tagged over and over again. The post prime Ali who fought in 70's would have to work to win against these guys but the 60's Ali would cruise against either. Tyson wouldn't even make it to the ring, Ali would have him beat before the fight even started by expoliting his lack of composure.

Razor Ruddock beat Ali? Please explain as I can't think of logical reason behind that statement.

To be honest Flicker I'll give you that Lewis would trouble Ali, but Vitali? Vitali couldn't handle a guy who stood right in front of him and could match him jab for jab such as Lewis. Ali has the reach to jab with Vitali and the footwork to exploit the plodding Vitali and the hand speed to really give him big problems. You are underestimating Ali's foot speed and hand speed at his prime. Even if Ali was just a Heavyweight with great footwork his ability to punch without ever having to set his feet is a trait that alone lets him beat slower guys. Vitali is a good fighter no doubt but he

When you have a 81" reach and can punch with force without having to set your feet why should Ali throw anything but 1-2's? Tyson and Holyfield would have to beat Ali in a similar fashion to how Frazier beat him, by swarming but considering that Frazier barely beat a old Ali, I can't imagine either Holyfield or Tyson beating Ali.

Both Tyson and Holyfield would get shredded in similar fashions. Chasing Ali all over the ring while they got tagged over and over again. The post prime Ali who fought in 70's would have to work to win against these guys but the 60's Ali would cruise against either. Tyson wouldn't even make it to the ring, Ali would have him beat before the fight even started by expoliting his lack of composure.

Razor Ruddock beat Ali? Please explain as I can't think of logical reason behind that statement.

F L I C K E R is under the delusion that nobody knew how to fight prior to 1990.

Poet

lennox never KOd any1 with a good chin, "beat his ass" sounds a bit too bold to me :D

frazier did "****" by telling his corner to stop the fight,hence the corner retirement.He could no longer take the savage beating he was receiving from his feather fisted superior.

Stop lying. Frazier never told his corner to stop the fight, Futch took that upon himself.

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

not a single piece of this has any substance to it, these are all hyperthetical excuses based on nothing other than hatred and Foremans book which i read a few years back and came to the conclusion after less than 2 chapters that it was a load of bull ****e...i gave the book to a close friend to read and he also said it was nothing but a load of bull...By George!

1/. ducking the big names as a rising star.. you must be joking..Besmanoff, Daniels, Banks, Moore, Jones, Cooper.

2/. If you believe that rubbish about a "Cut Glove" against Cooper then you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...yes his glove was ripped but Ali never got a single second longer than the one minute between rounds.

3/. Doug Jones decision was a clear victory for Ali 8-2, 5-4, 5-4

4/., Liston was in tremendous physical shape for his fight with Ali.. Ali put on a `masterful display`good enough to beat any champion in history.

5/. Wether Liston took a dive or not, it was not Ali`s fault

6/. Fighting foreigners : Take a look at the record of Lennox Lewis and count the foreigners he fought compaired to Ali, Lewis fought the foreigners in the USA wheras Ali travelled to their country and beat them.

7/. The draft controversy made Ali revilled by everyone except his own mother, it was not unto years later that public opinion changed in his favour.

8/. Ali vs Frazier (1) Fight of the Century... so what if Frazier`s win would be more clear today?

9/. clinching & covering up?... take a look at Lewis, Ruiz, Klitschko bros...

10/. Muhammad Ali told the entire world that Foreman was not the indestructable monster he makes out to be, Ali won every minute of the Rumble in the Jungle`... it was a masterclass.. He beat Foreman so convincingly that Foreman never deserved a rematch with Ali in a million years.. Foreman is envious of Ali and a big bull ****er.

11/. Ali vs Norton... lost 1st fight won next 2 fights, to claim otherwise is stupidity.

12/. Ron Lyle was out on his feet after taking over 30 unanswered punches, that fight was "Correctly" stopped by the referee.

13/. Frazier in Manilla would have beaten any fighter in history.. smokin joe`put on a brutal display of power-punching aswell as showing unbelievable will and courage.

14/. Jimmy Young deliberately held his head outside the ropes the whole fight... Ali won by a country mile

15/. Shavers... beaten clearly by an old Muhammad Ali, coulda, woulda & shoulda dont count in this game.

16/. Leon Spinks... you obviously know very little about the sport of boxing, Leon Spinks was a brilliant Olympic champion & outstanding amateur fighter, his fight against Ali to win the title was voted Ring Magazine Fight of the Year... so he was not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be, Spinks fights are very sought after by fight-film collectors are they are great value-for-money action packed fights.

17/. Larry Holmes... Ali was suffering badly for the dibilitating desease Parkinsons syndrome and film footage available from his training camp for this fight clearly shows that he was in no condition to be granted a boxing license... Ali never ducked Holmes or anyone else.

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your fukin teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

red k given

not a single piece of this has any substance to it, these are all hyperthetical excuses based on nothing other than hatred and Foremans book which i read a few years back and came to the conclusion after less than 2 chapters that it was a load of bull ****e...i gave the book to a close friend to read and he also said it was nothing but a load of bull...By George!

1/. ducking the big names as a rising star.. you must be joking..Besmanoff, Daniels, Banks, Moore, Jones, Cooper.

2/. If you believe that rubbish about a "Cut Glove" against Cooper then you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...yes his glove was ripped but Ali never got a single second longer than the one minute between rounds.

3/. Doug Jones decision was a clear victory for Ali 8-2, 5-4, 5-4

4/., Liston was in tremendous physical shape for his fight with Ali.. Ali put on a `masterful display`good enough to beat any champion in history.

5/. Wether Liston took a dive or not, it was not Ali`s fault

6/. Fighting foreigners : Take a look at the record of Lennox Lewis and count the foreigners he fought compaired to Ali, Lewis fought the foreigners in the USA wheras Ali travelled to their country and beat them.

7/. The draft controversy made Ali revilled by everyone except his own mother, it was not unto years later that public opinion changed in his favour.

8/. Ali vs Frazier (1) Fight of the Century... so what if Frazier`s win would be more clear today?

9/. clinching & covering up?... take a look at Lewis, Ruiz, Klitschko bros...

10/. Muhammad Ali told the entire world that Foreman was not the indestructable monster he makes out to be, Ali won every minute of the Rumble in the Jungle`... it was a masterclass.. He beat Foreman so convincingly that Foreman never deserved a rematch with Ali in a million years.. Foreman is envious of Ali and a big bull ****er.

11/. Ali vs Norton... lost 1st fight won next 2 fights, to claim otherwise is stupidity.

12/. Ron Lyle was out on his feet after taking over 30 unanswered punches, that fight was "Correctly" stopped by the referee.

13/. Frazier in Manilla would have beaten any fighter in history.. smokin joe`put on a brutal display of power-punching aswell as showing unbelievable will and courage.

14/. Jimmy Young deliberately held his head outside the ropes the whole fight... Ali won by a country mile

15/. Shavers... beaten clearly by an old Muhammad Ali, coulda, woulda & shoulda dont count in this game.

16/. Leon Spinks... you obviously know very little about the sport of boxing, Leon Spinks was a brilliant Olympic champion & outstanding amateur fighter, his fight against Ali to win the title was voted Ring Magazine Fight of the Year... so he was not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be, Spinks fights are very sought after by fight-film collectors are they are great value-for-money action packed fights.

17/. Larry Holmes... Ali was suffering badly for the dibilitating desease Parkinsons syndrome and film footage available from his training camp for this fight clearly shows that he was in no condition to be granted a boxing license... Ali never ducked Holmes or anyone else.

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your fukin teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.
This is the greatest post i have ever read on this site.......the TS should be shot in the ****ing head and have his balls chopped off for posting that absolute ****ing dribble....how dare you post this demeaning **** about the Greatest Athlete in Human History....go **** yourself you ****ing cunt

red k given

u dont need to waste red k to a fake account of an idiot :D

Im not the biggest Ali fan in the world, but this is a seriously biased post. You made no attempt to be objective whats so ever, as for Foremans tainted drink, lol

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

**** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT BOXING!!!U****ING PIECE OF ****!!!LARRY HOLMES COULD NEVER BEAT ALI AT ANY TIME...AND ALL UR POSTS ARE BUll****!U ****ING ****ER **** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:lol1: anybodies competition can be broken down that way. :lol1:

Not anyones. There were plenty of champs in the 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s who never ducked anyone.

Fair enough. But you're really stretching it on some of those, and most are just opinions, not really proven facts. The thing is even if you were to compare that list at face value against a list of Ali's true proven accomplishments, it wouldn't even compare. Ali is top 5 ATG.

not a single piece of this has any substance to it, these are all hyperthetical excuses based on nothing other than hatred and Foremans book which i read a few years back and came to the conclusion after less than 2 chapters that it was a load of bull ****e...i gave the book to a close friend to read and he also said it was nothing but a load of bull...By George!

1/. ducking the big names as a rising star.. you must be joking..Besmanoff, Daniels, Banks, Moore, Jones, Cooper.

2/. If you believe that rubbish about a "Cut Glove" against Cooper then you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...yes his glove was ripped but Ali never got a single second longer than the one minute between rounds.

3/. Doug Jones decision was a clear victory for Ali 8-2, 5-4, 5-4

4/., Liston was in tremendous physical shape for his fight with Ali.. Ali put on a `masterful display`good enough to beat any champion in history.

5/. Wether Liston took a dive or not, it was not Ali`s fault

6/. Fighting foreigners : Take a look at the record of Lennox Lewis and count the foreigners he fought compaired to Ali, Lewis fought the foreigners in the USA wheras Ali travelled to their country and beat them.

7/. The draft controversy made Ali revilled by everyone except his own mother, it was not unto years later that public opinion changed in his favour.

8/. Ali vs Frazier (1) Fight of the Century... so what if Frazier`s win would be more clear today?

9/. clinching & covering up?... take a look at Lewis, Ruiz, Klitschko bros...

10/. Muhammad Ali told the entire world that Foreman was not the indestructable monster he makes out to be, Ali won every minute of the Rumble in the Jungle`... it was a masterclass.. He beat Foreman so convincingly that Foreman never deserved a rematch with Ali in a million years.. Foreman is envious of Ali and a big bull ****er.

11/. Ali vs Norton... lost 1st fight won next 2 fights, to claim otherwise is stupidity.

12/. Ron Lyle was out on his feet after taking over 30 unanswered punches, that fight was "Correctly" stopped by the referee.

13/. Frazier in Manilla would have beaten any fighter in history.. smokin joe`put on a brutal display of power-punching aswell as showing unbelievable will and courage.

14/. Jimmy Young deliberately held his head outside the ropes the whole fight... Ali won by a country mile

15/. Shavers... beaten clearly by an old Muhammad Ali, coulda, woulda & shoulda dont count in this game.

16/. Leon Spinks... you obviously know very little about the sport of boxing, Leon Spinks was a brilliant Olympic champion & outstanding amateur fighter, his fight against Ali to win the title was voted Ring Magazine Fight of the Year... so he was not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be, Spinks fights are very sought after by fight-film collectors are they are great value-for-money action packed fights.

17/. Larry Holmes... Ali was suffering badly for the dibilitating desease Parkinsons syndrome and film footage available from his training camp for this fight clearly shows that he was in no condition to be granted a boxing license... Ali never ducked Holmes or anyone else.

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your fukin teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

AMEN!!!!!!! Good work, Sonny

You have pretty much eliminated Ali as a fighter from having anything to do with his reputation. His resume as a HW is second to none imo and compares favourably to pretty much any p4p atg. Whilst he wasn't without a weakness he had one hell of a skill set. Put that with the fact of his longevity and the fact that we probably still never saw the best of him and you have a fighter with a richly deserved reputation. For me SRR was the greatest but I have yet to see a HW who I could confidently say would beat a prime Ali



Hardly a flaw, it would be a stupid fighter who didn't take the path of least resistance to a title shot. Also there are always fighters missing of a fighters resume due to time lines etc but it is a real reach to find too many on Ali's resume


Bit of an exagerated urban myth has gone on about this fight and the length of delay. The fact of it was the ropes cushioned Ali's fall and he got up from every hard punch he ever took so it is conjecture to say that Cooper's would have done for him.
Don't forget he finished Copper in the next round so wasn't showing too many ill effects.

Ali won this comfortably, Jones gave a good account by Ali won. Jones was coming off a win against Folley, so you can't have it both ways was Folley a contender or not?


This is hindsight. Coming into the first Liston fight I and pretty much everyone else thought Ali/Clay would be KO'd within 4 rounds.

I've never been comfortable with the KO but I don't think Liston took a dive for money. What went through his mind we can only speculate. That said I think that Ali had Liston's measure and maybe Liston realised that.

Wouldn't be the first fighter to take the odd easy match. If they paid more than a journeyman would then why not? He was after all the WORLD champion.

Maybe to the man in the street, personally I don't think it effected his stature as a boxer to boxing fans one way or other, certainly not to me. If anything it robbed us of his peak, can you think who would have beaten him in that era? He might well have disposed of a rushed green Frazier easily and we would have been robbed of 2 great fights, who can say?

I had this for Frazier, I know there is a school of thought that Ali one but not to my eyes.

It's called ringcraft, any great fighter does what he can get away with. Marciano, Armstrong, Duran etc etc

Foreman changes with the wind on this. In facing Ali he says the drugged drink was an excuse he pulled out of the air.

I gave the 3rd to Norton and have seen worse decisions than giving Norton the 2nd fight too. That said Ali wouldn't be the first champion or big name to be given the benefit of the doubt. Norton was Ali's bogeyman, doesn't make him a better fighter or diminish Ali imo.


Ali was losing the fight but whilst Lyle wasn't knocked down he has in trouble. He took countless punches without replying for 30 seconds, maybe the referee did stop it a touch early but rather too early than too late.
To my eyes Lyle was done, yes he argued the stoppage as he passively follwed Ali to Ali's corner, dazed.

Frazier was in decline as was Ali, great fight and the last hurrah of 2 atg's

This is one of those fights that Young wins more rounds by the year. I would have given the nod to Young but it was by no means a shut out.

Yes Ali faked Shavers out and had Shavers gone all or nothing who knows? That said no one ever KO'd Ali so it is speculation that Shavers would have. Had Shavers gone more hell for leather in the eraly rounds you could easily say his suspect stamina might have let him down in the later rounds.

I wouldn't argue with either point, Ali was a shell and Spinks was extremely limited. I personally draw the line under Ali with the Shavers fight.

Ali was finished, this fight does neither him or Holmes any credit.
I would grant you that by 1977 Holmes could have beaten Ali but I wouldn't neccessary say that Ali ducked Holmes. Its the old risk versus reward Ali would fight Godzilla if the money was right. If there is no more money in the pot he'd rather fight a Spinks or a Evangelista, thats the game.
Also lets not forget they were both top 10 ranked.

Great, great post!

**** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT BOXING!!!U****ING PIECE OF ****!!!LARRY HOLMES COULD NEVER BEAT ALI AT ANY TIME...AND ALL UR POSTS ARE BUll****!U ****ING ****ER **** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's OK, take a deep breath.

I take that in his old age,LondonRingRules has forgotten the password to his original account.

I take that in his old age,LondonRingRules has forgotten the password to his original account.

:haha: Hahaha! That's pretty good :rofl: Green K given :D

Poet

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your fukin teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

Sonny I hate it when you get vague, do you agree with the thread starter or not? :)

Let us not forget Ali vs Inoki.

Inoki>Ali

Let us not forget Ali vs Inoki.

Inoki>Ali

are u that flying pig in your avatar?

are u that flying pig in your avatar?

http://www.mutantfrog.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/62605_200901290691544001233229984c1.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9ENRpbSb5Jo/SfeZP8Y0a2I/AAAAAAAAAAU/0Ii7usxLPqw/s320/Inoki1976.jpg

not a single piece of this has any substance to it, these are all hyperthetical excuses based on nothing other than hatred and Foremans book which i read a few years back and came to the conclusion after less than 2 chapters that it was a load of bull ****e...i gave the book to a close friend to read and he also said it was nothing but a load of bull...By George!

1/. ducking the big names as a rising star.. you must be joking..Besmanoff, Daniels, Banks, Moore, Jones, Cooper.

2/. If you believe that rubbish about a "Cut Glove" against Cooper then you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...yes his glove was ripped but Ali never got a single second longer than the one minute between rounds.

3/. Doug Jones decision was a clear victory for Ali 8-2, 5-4, 5-4

4/., Liston was in tremendous physical shape for his fight with Ali.. Ali put on a `masterful display`good enough to beat any champion in history.

5/. Wether Liston took a dive or not, it was not Ali`s fault

6/. Fighting foreigners : Take a look at the record of Lennox Lewis and count the foreigners he fought compaired to Ali, Lewis fought the foreigners in the USA wheras Ali travelled to their country and beat them.

7/. The draft controversy made Ali revilled by everyone except his own mother, it was not unto years later that public opinion changed in his favour.

8/. Ali vs Frazier (1) Fight of the Century... so what if Frazier`s win would be more clear today?

9/. clinching & covering up?... take a look at Lewis, Ruiz, Klitschko bros...

10/. Muhammad Ali told the entire world that Foreman was not the indestructable monster he makes out to be, Ali won every minute of the Rumble in the Jungle`... it was a masterclass.. He beat Foreman so convincingly that Foreman never deserved a rematch with Ali in a million years.. Foreman is envious of Ali and a big bull ****er.

11/. Ali vs Norton... lost 1st fight won next 2 fights, to claim otherwise is stupidity.

12/. Ron Lyle was out on his feet after taking over 30 unanswered punches, that fight was "Correctly" stopped by the referee.

13/. Frazier in Manilla would have beaten any fighter in history.. smokin joe`put on a brutal display of power-punching aswell as showing unbelievable will and courage.

14/. Jimmy Young deliberately held his head outside the ropes the whole fight... Ali won by a country mile

15/. Shavers... beaten clearly by an old Muhammad Ali, coulda, woulda & shoulda dont count in this game.

16/. Leon Spinks... you obviously know very little about the sport of boxing, Leon Spinks was a brilliant Olympic champion & outstanding amateur fighter, his fight against Ali to win the title was voted Ring Magazine Fight of the Year... so he was not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be, Spinks fights are very sought after by fight-film collectors are they are great value-for-money action packed fights.

17/. Larry Holmes... Ali was suffering badly for the dibilitating desease Parkinsons syndrome and film footage available from his training camp for this fight clearly shows that he was in no condition to be granted a boxing license... Ali never ducked Holmes or anyone else.

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your fukin teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

Fantastic post! Green k!

Let us not forget Ali vs Inoki.

Inoki>Ali
who's inoki??? oh that cunt who was rolling on the floor like a homosexual?? that Inoki?

who's inoki??? oh that cunt who was rolling on the floor like a homosexual?? that Inoki?

The rules of the match were announced several months in advance. Two days before the match, however, several new rules were added which severely limited the moves that each man could perform. A rule change that had a major outcome on this match was that Inoki could only throw a kick if one of his knees was on the ground. In the match, Ali landed a total of six punches to Inoki, and Inoki kept to his back in a defensive position almost the full duration of the match of 15 rounds, hitting Ali with a low kick repeatedly. The bout ended in a draw, 3-3. Ali left without a press conference and suffered damage to his legs as a result of Inoki's repeated leg kicks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Inoki

The rules of the match were announced several months in advance. Two days before the match, however, several new rules were added which severely limited the moves that each man could perform. A rule change that had a major outcome on this match was that Inoki could only throw a kick if one of his knees was on the ground. In the match, Ali landed a total of six punches to Inoki, and Inoki kept to his back in a defensive position almost the full duration of the match of 15 rounds, hitting Ali with a low kick repeatedly. The bout ended in a draw, 3-3. Ali left without a press conference and suffered damage to his legs as a result of Inoki's repeated leg kicks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Inoki

yeah thanks mate i didn't need your analysis, i've seen the fight myself and Inoki was rolling on the floor like a *****

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.


every resume has flaws, put it this way...who in the history of boxing fought the competition he did? let alone get that many wins.

yeah thanks mate i didn't need your analysis, i've seen the fight myself and Inoki was rolling on the floor like a *****

What part about "those were the rules he had to abide by" don't you understand?

One knee had to be on the floor for him to throw a kick.

Comprende? Capishe? Understand?

As in, the reason he was on the floor "like a *****" is because the rules specified that he had to do so.

yeah thanks mate i didn't need your analysis, i've seen the fight myself and Inoki was rolling on the floor like a *****

He was doing the only thing he was allowed to do in the rules, and he still put a hurting on Ali.

He was doing the only thing he was allowed to do in the rules, and he still put a hurting on Ali.
HHAHAHAHAHHAHA.......Real Fighter > Fake Wrestler

who's inoki??? oh that cunt who was rolling on the floor like a homosexual?? that Inoki?

The Inoki that sat on Ali's face, that Inoki.

The Inoki that sat on Ali's face, that Inoki.
the Inoki that was too much of a coward to stand on his feet and fight?

****ty way to start on here TS.

the Inoki that was too much of a coward to stand on his feet and fight?

Please don't turn this into a serious discussion.

"Inoki was prohibited from punching with a closed fist or striking Ali in the head (ostensibly since he wasn't wearing gloves). Inoki was prohibited from using any sort of submission maneuver. The most absurd limitation was that Inoki was prohibited from "grapping or trying to take Ali to the ground"."

That plus not kicking without one knee on ground. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

****ty way to start on here TS.

I don't agree with TS in anyway, but it's no different than threads like the Duran is overrated one.

The opening post is the worst I have ever seen in this legendary forum. Disgraceful.

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

This post really sucks. If you can't realize that Ali was a cripple when he fought Holmes than you have no credibility. Spinks was undefeated when he beat Ali, and that was before Holmes, so you contradict your own argument when you say that Ali was washed up against Spinks but not Holmes.