I made a thread in March about how Im sick of everyone having MAB, Morales, and Pac Man being recycled at the top of the #4# debate no matter how many times they lose or how they lose just because there fighting eachother.

I had it like this and everyone went crazy. How are you going to have Winky over them. I said give someone else a chance and dude has been fighting good fighters and hasnt lost in a long time.

1)Hopkins
2)Mayweather
3)Tszyu
4)Winky

I also had Chico and Castillo 5 and 6 and everyone went crazy that I had them over them 3. Give these guys respect. Then I had it

7)R. Marquez
8)Zab
9)Toney
10)I had EM,MAB, and Pac all tied.

I still have it the same. Here is my new list

1)Hopkins
2)Mayweather
3)Tszyu
4)Winky
5)Chico
6)Castillo
7)R.Marquez
8)Zab
9)Toney
10)the big 3

I didnt drop Toney because I still dont know the whole story and he still won. I dont like having the big 3 higher because Pac just lost his last fight and had a draw in his previous one, MAB was just dominated and TKO by Pac a couple of fights back and lost to EM, and EM who alot have high lost twice to MAB and had some other close fights like a barely win over a one armed Chaves which he might have lost if that wasnt the case. Give other guys a chance. There are alot of great fighters out there and they deserve to have there spot on the list. They have all fought great fighters and have big wins

Man I have to say that I actually agree almost completely with you on this one, with the exception of Mayweather(I'd switch him and Winky around) solely because of level of competition lately as well as Winky moving up and dominating Tito.

Man I have to say that I actually agree almost completely with you on this one, with the exception of Mayweather(I'd switch him and Winky around) solely because of level of competition lately as well as Winky moving up and dominating Tito.
Thats a first.

Good for you, you wanna'cookie? Your list sucks, I can't grasp your rationalization in putting this list together... is it on ability, recent achievements, or who's nuts you hug the tightest?

Good for you, you wanna'cookie? Your list sucks, I can't grasp your rationalization in putting this list together... is it on ability, recent achievements, or who's nuts you hug the tightest?
**** you ******, whats that supposed to mean clown? You act like Im in the media or somthing. Lets see your list

LOL I thought the exact same thing as I read your post. I also noticed you don't post as often as you used to, I haven't either mainly cause of the overflow of ignorance on here lately. Sucks without anybody to have a good old fashioned debate such as we have had in the past. Nowadays all people seem to do is talk out of their asses, without any point!

Good for you, you wanna'cookie? Your list sucks, I can't grasp your rationalization in putting this list together... is it on ability, recent achievements, or who's nuts you hug the tightest?

Here's a good example of what I meant!

LOL I thought the exact same thing as I read your post. I also noticed you don't post as often as you used to, I haven't either mainly cause of the overflow of ignorance on here lately. Sucks without anybody to have a good old fashioned debate such as we have had in the past. Nowadays all people seem to do is talk out of their asses, without any point!
Yeah, first my computer got ****ed up by a virus and I had to reset everything. When I first signed up I never logged off so I didnt need my password but when I reset my coputer then I needed my password to get back on here and I didnt remember it. I finally got the site to send me another one but that was like a month later and then Im a Wizards fan so as you see we are winning for the first time and I have been on there sites most of the time. Now we have been eliminated and there is a big fight the same night so I will be on a littile more but I have noticed the clowns also so I still wont be on here too much.

morales should be top 5

morales should be top 5
I dont mind it but give me a list. I dont think he deserves to be over the guys I had in the top 5

#1) Hopkins
#2) Winky
#3) Mayweather
#3) Morales [#3 not a typo]
#5) Kostya Tzsyu
#6) JM Marquez
#7) Barrera
#8) Corrales
#9) Castillo
#10) Pacquiao

(clears throat)

http://www.thecolumnists.com/miller/miller411art1.jpg

We all know who should be #1 right now. I bare the gifted one's name!

(clears throat)

http://www.thecolumnists.com/miller/miller411art1.jpg

I really agree

he beat morales when he was the underdog in great fashion n dont get the credit he deserves

#1) Hopkins
#2) Winky
#3) Mayweather
#3) Morales [#3 not a typo]
#5) Kostya Tzsyu
#6) JM Marquez
#7) Barrera
#8) Corrales
#9) Castillo
#10) Pacquiao
Come on man. Where is Toney. The guy beat Jirov was the undisputed cruiserweight champ and moved up to heavy and beat Holy and Ruiz easily. He started at middelweight. Have you seen R.Marquez? This guy beat Too Sharp twice, once by KO and KO Tim Austin and he cant make your list. Zab just KO the Welter champ. All the great fighters Chico and Castillo have been fighting? Stop recycling these same guys. How can you have Juan Marquez over his brother?

I really agree

he beat morales when he was the underdog in great fashion n dont get the credit he deserves
Just 2 fights ago he was dominated and TKO. If that happened to Floyd then you guys wouldnt put him on the list or Winky or the other guys. Stop recycling these guys. It wasnt too long ago when he lost to Morales and he has been fighting a bunch of old and washed up guys. Give me a break

I really enjoyed the Toney/Jirov fight, but Jirov wasn't in anyones top 10 p4p list when they fought; maybe not even top 15. Beating Holyfield at this point in time is not such a great accomplishment, and Ruiz?.... please... he doesn't count. I like Toney, but beating those three guys you mentioned is not better than the fighters Barrera, Morales, Castillo, and Corrales have beaten.

Yes I've seen R. Marquez... but lately he hasn't beat anyone thats' someone. Zab KO'd Spinks, after losing the first fight with him; Spinks is not that good.Tzsyu crushed Zab, how can you have them so close on your list disregarding other great fighters who've fought other great fighters without getting KO'd ala Zab?

I believe Juan Manuel Marquez can beat Barrera, Pacquiao and even Morales.

#1) Hopkins
#2) Winky
#3) Mayweather
#3) Morales [#3 not a typo]
#5) Kostya Tzsyu
#6) JM Marquez
#7) Barrera
#8) Corrales
#9) Castillo
#10) Pacquiao


I agree with the first 3. I would give Kostya #4 and Barrera #5

Just 2 fights ago he was dominated and TKO. If that happened to Floyd then you guys wouldnt put him on the list or Winky or the other guys. Stop recycling these guys. It wasnt too long ago when he lost to Morales and he has been fighting a bunch of old and washed up guys. Give me a break

He made up for that by beating Morales two fights later. And you well know that the Barrera that fought Pacquiao was not the same Barrera that beat Morales and Hamed.

Morales beat the fighter who KO'd the last fighter to beat him, what does that tell you?

You mentioned Morales would have lost to Chavez if it wasn't for Chavez hurting his arm. Morales did knock Chavez down twice in round 2. Did Chavez have both his arms functioning in tht round? Yes he did, maybe... just maybe if he wouldn't of hurt his arm... he might have even been KO'd hence being able to punch with both arms leaves more openings for your adversary. Does it not?

Morales has won three titles in three weight divisions... only the second fighter from Mexico to do that. He went up there and fought two titleholders and beat them. It was apparent he wasn't up for the Barrera fight and lost it.

Floyd in my view lost to Castillo the first fight and he's lucky I have him that high because recently he hasn't done sh*t... and beating Gatti is not that great of an accomplishment.

I stand by my list.

Just 2 fights ago he was dominated and TKO. If that happened to Floyd then you guys wouldnt put him on the list or Winky or the other guys. Stop recycling these guys. It wasnt too long ago when he lost to Morales and he has been fighting a bunch of old and washed up guys. Give me a break

haha. He beat the crap out of Morales.....who beat Pac's ass. He also won his last fight by brutal knockout against a decent contender. If you dont have M.A.B. on a P4P list......you are smokin. Plain and Simple.

Give me a break. Rafael Marquez? LOL. come on....who has he beat?


He made up for that by beating Morales two fights later. And you well know that the Barrera that fought Pacquiao was not the same Barrera that beat Morales and Hamed.
.

yup. well said. I dont care what anyone says....or how ratings work. He is a top 5 fighter in the sport, and there is no room for him to be replaced.

1) Exaggeration is in love with you guys. Morales didn't kick Pac's ass anymore than Toney kicked Ruiz's ass. However, Morales' win is more impressive.

2) Toney beat Jirov a long time ago. That was a very good and big win. Since then he beat 3 guys who were all out of shape, old, are not that good to begin with, and sometimes a combonation of these factors.

3) R. Marquez DLT makes a good point with. His comp demands top 10 p4p recognition.

4) The top 5 gets pretty sketchy from 2-5. Winky, Floyd, Tszyu...none are far ahead of the others.

5) Pac, EM, and MAB should not be as low as 10 (if indeed we are lumping them all into one fighter). They all are considered very skillful, fight good fighters, and win the fights they're supposed to win. They all seem to be as skilled as Spinks, who Judah split a pair of fights with and yet ranks higher than all 3 on your list. If you caught flak for having them at 10, I say you just got what you deserved (but no one deserves anything too malicious).

6) Chico and Castillo deserve to be ahead of guys like Morales Judah, MAB, and Pac but below guys like Winky, Floyd, Tszyu, and Hopkins.

I made a thread in March about how Im sick of everyone having MAB, Morales, and Pac Man being recycled at the top of the #4# debate no matter how many times they lose or how they lose just because there fighting eachother.

I had it like this and everyone went crazy. How are you going to have Winky over them. I said give someone else a chance and dude has been fighting good fighters and hasnt lost in a long time.

1)Hopkins
2)Mayweather
3)Tszyu
4)Winky

I also had Chico and Castillo 5 and 6 and everyone went crazy that I had them over them 3. Give these guys respect. Then I had it

7)R. Marquez
8)Zab
9)Toney
10)I had EM,MAB, and Pac all tied.

I still have it the same. Here is my new list

1)Hopkins
2)Mayweather
3)Tszyu
4)Winky
5)Chico
6)Castillo
7)R.Marquez
8)Zab
9)Toney
10)the big 3

I didnt drop Toney because I still dont know the whole story and he still won. I dont like having the big 3 higher because Pac just lost his last fight and had a draw in his previous one, MAB was just dominated and TKO by Pac a couple of fights back and lost to EM, and EM who alot have high lost twice to MAB and had some other close fights like a barely win over a one armed Chaves which he might have lost if that wasnt the case. Give other guys a chance. There are alot of great fighters out there and they deserve to have there spot on the list. They have all fought great fighters and have big wins

what the fk is mayweather doing way up there. the floydboy/corrales fight was bogus. corrales was mentally beat before the fight started. since i feel a younger hungryer bigger speedster taylor is going to beat hopkins i'm going to include my forsite in my #f# list.

1. taylor
2. winky
3. hopkins
4. tszyu
5. corrales
6. prettyboybutthead
7. castillo
8. marquez
9. barrera
10.judah

I made a thread in March about how Im sick of everyone having MAB, Morales, and Pac Man being recycled at the top of the #4# debate no matter how many times they lose or how they lose just because there fighting eachother.

I had it like this and everyone went crazy. How are you going to have Winky over them. I said give someone else a chance and dude has been fighting good fighters and hasnt lost in a long time.

1)Hopkins
2)Mayweather
3)Tszyu
4)Winky

I also had Chico and Castillo 5 and 6 and everyone went crazy that I had them over them 3. Give these guys respect. Then I had it

7)R. Marquez
8)Zab
9)Toney
10)I had EM,MAB, and Pac all tied.

I still have it the same. Here is my new list

1)Hopkins
2)Mayweather
3)Tszyu
4)Winky
5)Chico
6)Castillo
7)R.Marquez
8)Zab
9)Toney
10)the big 3

I didnt drop Toney because I still dont know the whole story and he still won. I dont like having the big 3 higher because Pac just lost his last fight and had a draw in his previous one, MAB was just dominated and TKO by Pac a couple of fights back and lost to EM, and EM who alot have high lost twice to MAB and had some other close fights like a barely win over a one armed Chaves which he might have lost if that wasnt the case. Give other guys a chance. There are alot of great fighters out there and they deserve to have there spot on the list. They have all fought great fighters and have big wins

As much as i enjoyed Castillo-Corrales,no way castillo deserves to be atop EM or MAB,and winkly proved his point,I'll give him his due,but goddamn is he a boring fighter,him and hop:great,but boring as sh*t.I dont know if winky should be that high tho,if you used that lgoic that youd keep EM em down cause he loast a previous fight to a guy(MAB) that got tkod,i can say winky fought a guy who got KO'ed,had a long lay off and has only had one tune up fight since then,see why that isnt exactly fair?My opinion anyways,let me re-arrange your list,my list would look like this:

1)Hopkins(Ditto)
2)Mayweather(Ditto)
3)Tszyu(Ditto)
4)Chico(More rounded than winky i think)
5)Winky(Its only his first Big win)
6)Morales(I think his Perofmance against Pac Warrants it)
7)MAB,Pac(Unfinished Biz?)
8)R.Marquez(Just Earned it)
9)Zab(sorry Zab,you aint Impressed me yet.)
10)Castillo(Good,kind of.But has earned it)



I dont get why you put toney on here either?He beat John Ruiz, man,thanks toney,but thats the only noteworthy thing apart from a steroids scandal that youve done In my book.

What do you think?

As much as i enjoyed Castillo-Corrales,no way castillo deserves to be atop EM or MAB,and winkly proved his point,I'll give him his due,but goddamn is he a boring fighter,him and hop:great,but boring as sh*t.I dont know if winky should be that high tho,if you used that lgoic that youd keep EM em down cause he loast a previous fight to a guy(MAB) that got tkod,i can say winky fought a guy who got KO'ed,had a long lay off and has only had one tune up fight since then,see why that isnt exactly fair?My opinion anyways,let me re-arrange your list,my list would look like this:

1)Hopkins(Ditto)
2)Mayweather(Ditto)
3)Tszyu(Ditto)
4)Chico(More rounded than winky i think)
5)Winky(Its only his first Big win)
6)Morales(I think his Perofmance against Pac Warrants it)
7)MAB,Pac(Unfinished Biz?)
8)R.Marquez(Just Earned it)
9)Zab(sorry Zab,you aint Impressed me yet.)
10)Castillo(Good,kind of.But has earned it)



I dont get why you put toney on here either?He beat John Ruiz, man,thanks toney,but thats the only noteworthy thing apart from a steroids scandal that youve done In my book.

What do you think?

Your list seems fair but I wouldn't have Judah on there yet because I never thought Spinks was that great anyway.

I agree on Toney. He's not even the best in his current division (or any of the others he's been in IMO) so you can't have him on there without having VK and arguably a couple other HWs above him. It is p4p and that ****er weighs 300.

As much as i enjoyed Castillo-Corrales,no way castillo deserves to be atop EM or MAB,and winkly proved his point,I'll give him his due,but goddamn is he a boring fighter,him and hop:great,but boring as sh*t.I dont know if winky should be that high tho,if you used that lgoic that youd keep EM em down cause he loast a previous fight to a guy(MAB) that got tkod,i can say winky fought a guy who got KO'ed,had a long lay off and has only had one tune up fight since then,see why that isnt exactly fair?My opinion anyways,let me re-arrange your list,my list would look like this:

1)Hopkins(Ditto)
2)Mayweather(Ditto)
3)Tszyu(Ditto)
4)Chico(More rounded than winky i think)
5)Winky(Its only his first Big win)
6)Morales(I think his Perofmance against Pac Warrants it)
7)MAB,Pac(Unfinished Biz?)
8)R.Marquez(Just Earned it)
9)Zab(sorry Zab,you aint Impressed me yet.)
10)Castillo(Good,kind of.But has earned it)



I dont get why you put toney on here either?He beat John Ruiz, man,thanks toney,but thats the only noteworthy thing apart from a steroids scandal that youve done In my book.

What do you think?
not a bad list, I can dig that. I still think Toney is impressive. you say that Holy anr Ruiz arent that impressive but I look at it like this is a #4# list and he started at middelweight so thats what makes it impressive. Ruiz has beat alot of good fighters

what the fk is mayweather doing way up there. the floydboy/corrales fight was bogus. corrales was mentally beat before the fight started. since i feel a younger hungryer bigger speedster taylor is going to beat hopkins i'm going to include my forsite in my #f# list.

1. taylor
2. winky
3. hopkins
4. tszyu
5. corrales
6. prettyboybutthead
7. castillo
8. marquez
9. barrera
10.judah
I dont like putting guys up there before something happeneds but I do pick Taylor to beat X. However he still wouldnt be #1 because I dont think this is a prime X

haha. He beat the crap out of Morales.....who beat Pac's ass. He also won his last fight by brutal knockout against a decent contender. If you dont have M.A.B. on a P4P list......you are smokin. Plain and Simple.

Give me a break. Rafael Marquez? LOL. come on....who has he beat?



yup. well said. I dont care what anyone says....or how ratings work. He is a top 5 fighter in the sport, and there is no room for him to be replaced.
He beat Morales but your saying that just completely erases what happened to him a couple of fights ago and all the other washed up scrubs he has been fighting? Also who has Marquez fought? Are you for real? He beat Too Sharp twice, once by KO and KO Tim Austin.

1. James Toney - beat a Heaveyweight champ, ultimate achivement
2. Bernard Hopkins - beat Trinidad, undisputed
3. Mayweather
4. Winky Wright - beat Trinidad, undisputed
5. Morales
6. Tszyu
7. Barrera
8. Zab Judah
9. Diego Corrales
10. Trinidad - 1 more loss would knock him off, still dangerous

1. Hopkins
2. Barrera
3. Morales
4. Winky
5. Corrales
6. Mayweather
7. Manny pacq
8. Kostya Tszyu
9. Jose Louis Castillo
10.Oscar Larios
11.R Marquez

1.Hopkins
2.Morales
3.Tsyzu
4.Barrera
5.Wright
6.Corrales
7.J.M.Marquez
8.Castillo
9.Mayweather
10.Pacquiao
11.Trinidad
12.R.Marquez
13.Larios
14.Klitschko
15.Tarver

Are you for real? He beat Too Sharp twice, once by KO and KO Tim Austin.

Arguably the two most overrated fighters in their respective divisions. And that is about it. You had Rafael ranked higher than Barrera.....and that is whack.

Ayala
Tapia
Morales
Hamed
Kelley
Sanchez
Salazar
Jimmenez

and the list goes on for the kingpin's opposition. Plus he would knock R.Marquez out in 2 rounds flat.

then screw it.

1. Mayweather
2. Nard
3. Barrera
4. Winky
5. Morales
6. Corrales
7. Castillo
8. Tszyu
9. Pacquiao
10. Juan Manuel Marquez

Judah a close 11th tied with Kassim Ouma.

then screw it.

1. Mayweather
2. Nard
3. Barrera
4. Winky
5. Morales
6. Corrales
7. Castillo
8. Tszyu
9. Pacquiao
10. Juan Manuel Marquez

Judah a close 11th tied with Kassim Ouma.


that is good list id switch zoo and JLC around. still think B-hop is 1 cause he has been around longer.

that is good list id switch zoo and JLC around. still think B-hop is 1 cause he has been around longer.

Yeah he has. And that these lists are pretty much open for debate because they are based on aesthetics in approval of fighter's resumes, as well as recent competition faced.

Those are the two criteria for these lists IMO. If I had it my way....and would simply pick who I thought could beat anyone else...Jeff Lacy would be damn near the top of my list because he is a damn force. But that would look really stupid.

1. James Toney - beat a Heaveyweight champ, ultimate achivement
2. Bernard Hopkins - beat Trinidad, undisputed
3. Mayweather
4. Winky Wright - beat Trinidad, undisputed
5. Morales
6. Tszyu
7. Barrera
8. Zab Judah
9. Diego Corrales
10. Trinidad - 1 more loss would knock him off, still dangerous


You still have Tito p4p hahaha, my godman how much of a nuthugger are you.

1. The Executioner - 20 def. of middleweight championship. hasn't lost in 10 years. Ko'd Trinidad when thought to be invincible.

2. Floyd Mayweathter- Undefeated. 130 and 135 champ. Fastest hands in the game. Beat rugged Castillio 2x. Dominated Corrales

3. Kostya Tszyu- Really undisputed at 140. 1 loss last millenium. A machine who is always ready with crushing power. Quickness underestimated. Ko'd Zab Judah and Sharmba Mitchell.....quick

4. Winky Wright---Hasn't lost in over 5 years. Should be nicknamed "Groundhogs's Day" cuz he does the same thing over and over and dominates conventionally. Holds 2 wins over Sugar Shane Mosely and Shutout Tito Trinidad.


5. Chico Corrales--130 and 135 champ. Currently on best run in boxing with consective victories (convincing) over Casamayor,Freitas, and Castillio. Loss to No.2 on list is the his only legitamate or un-revenged defeat.


6. Vitali Klitscho--Heavyweight champ stands aroud 6'7. Good power quick hands. Has proven he can 'take it'...something rare in hvwyt.div.
Sent LL into retirement.

7.a) Marco Antonio Barrera-great boxer puncher with wins over Naseem Hamed, Erik Moreles(2wice), and Kennedy Mckinney(great fight plug).
b) Erik Morales-same as above with close victories over No. 7.a and 7.c on list.
c) Manny Pacquio- 'Fists of Fury' Holds ko victory over "The Baby-Faced Assasin" or 7.a on list and a controversial loss to "El Terrible" or 7.b on list.
d) Juan Manuel Marquez- Featherweight champ. that got up off the canvas for a third time in round to beat Manny Pacquio over the next 11 rounds earning a controversial draw.............whew

8. Rafeal Marquez- Bantamweight king destroyed Mark 'Too Sharp' Johnson and Tim Austin. No real competion in his own division stall in his rise to #4# glory.

9.a) Glenn Johnson- Lt. Hvwyt. Champ with devasting win over former #4# king Roy Jones Jr.. Also holds controversial dec. win over Antonio Tarver.
b) Antonio Tarver- Former Lt.Hvwyt. Champ who 1st dethroned Roy Jones Jr. as #4# king with a 2nd round ko. ala Canibus.......
Every loss but to Glenn Johnson has been avenged with a ko. Glenn Johnson rematch on the horizon.

10)Zab Judah. 147 Champ. Beat the man who beat the man who beat the man who beat the man..........
The 2nd fastest hands in the game with explosive power. Only un-avenged loss was to No. 3 on list. Experts say he's still getting better.

here is my list:
1. floyd mayweather....most skills in boxing
2. bernard hopkins
3. kostya tszyu
4. winky wright.... if ZOO stays inactive, wright leapfrogs him
5. MAB... redeamed himself against morales
6. EM...big win over manny
7. zab SUPER judah...undisputed
8. jose luis castillo...ahead of chico because in a rematch that doesnt happen again
9. diego corrales....was getting beaten by jlc before big comeback
10. Glen Johnson... has wins over antonio tarver and roy jones

close: cory spinks, joel cassamayor, PACMAN, JMM, antonio tarver, rafeal marquez and antonio margarito.

You still have Tito p4p hahaha, my godman how much of a nuthugger are you.


LOL!! You got some karma.. I told you IWatchBoxing is blinded by Puerto Rico.. It's one thing to be proud of your heritage. It's another to disregard others' heritages as you blindly thrust yours to the top.. The way he speaks of Puerto Rico you'd think they accomplished great things throughout history..Like Italians for example :)

here is my list:
1. floyd mayweather....most skills in boxing
2. bernard hopkins
3. kostya tszyu
4. winky wright.... if ZOO stays inactive, wright leapfrogs him
5. MAB... redeamed himself against morales
6. EM...big win over manny
7. zab SUPER judah...undisputed
8. jose luis castillo...ahead of chico because in a rematch that doesnt happen again
9. diego corrales....was getting beaten by jlc before big comeback
10. Glen Johnson... has wins over antonio tarver and roy jones

close: cory spinks, joel cassamayor, PACMAN, JMM, antonio tarver, rafeal marquez and antonio margarito.


actually i beilve that corrales had a 1 point lead on 2 scorecards coming into the 10th round.

"ahead of chico because in a rematch that doesnt happen again"

since when were lb/lb lists determined from what MIGHT happen in the future?

Arguably the two most overrated fighters in their respective divisions. And that is about it. You had Rafael ranked higher than Barrera.....and that is whack.

Ayala
Tapia
Morales
Hamed
Kelley
Sanchez
Salazar
Jimmenez

and the list goes on for the kingpin's opposition. Plus he would knock R.Marquez out in 2 rounds flat.
Dont give me names, give me great fights. All most all of those guys were way past there prime when MAB beat them. Ayala, Tapia, Kelley. Man please. All those guys were just names who now lose on a regular basis