Who do you regard as the greater heavyweight?

Dempsey. The dude was an animal in the ring and had much better boxing skills than he gets credit for.

Poet

Dempsey was great but the rock was greater!

Skills or accomplishments? Bot have quite a resume.

I believe Dempsey may have had more ability, based on his training footage not his actual fights which often disappoint, but when it comes down to it, Marciano fought everyone there was to fight while Dempsey did not.

Ali said about Dempsey exactly what I think a lot of people see when they watch him fight. I like Marciano.

Ali said about Dempsey exactly what I think a lot of people see when they watch him fight. I like Marciano.

What do you think of Tyson's thoughts on Dempsey?

Keep in mind that Tyson viewed an extensive collection of film on Dempsey, footage that most people probably don't know even exists. Not just a short clip of Dempsey going wild on an already stunned Willard or his brawl with Firpo.

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Both ATG, but i prefer Rocky on this one.. As already mentioned, there were gaps in Dempsey's resume of black fighters he was steered away from..
Rocky had wins over Charles, Moore, Walcott and Louis.. I know they were past prime, but he still fought them aswell as all of the best white contenders of the day..

In a match up, you've got to invisage a heavyweight version of Gatti Ward, but with a few knockdowns.. Can see Marciano behind on points before edging it by late late stoppage..

Dempsey for me.. he was a ferocious animal ...The only way to beat him was by scientific boxing (dancing) like Tunney

I enjoyed seeing the sparring with Bill Tate, GreatA.....I'd not seen that before, some nice head movement from Jack there.

I chose Dempsey by a whisker over Marciano......

Marciano by a country mile. He fought a much better class of opponent.

Marciano was one of those fighters born for it..dere's nothing to do i do love dempsey but Marciano is a legend

While Marciano didn't duck and dodge the Black HOFers of his era like Dempsey did, Dempsey still has the far superior resume...thus I rate him higher. But had Marciano not received those two gifts against LaStarza and Lowry then I'd rate Marciano higher simply because there wouldn't be any arguments that someone ever managed to beat him. In any case, I rate them basically right next to each other.

In a h2h matchup however I favor the Rock. Dempsey would start fast and win the early rounds but the Rock would weather the storm, come on strong, and break him down in the long run. But why would I rate Dempsey higher if I believe this? Well, Dempsey could beat skilled legit Heavyweights with height, Fred Fulton at the top of the list. Marciano on the other hand never fought a credible opponent who was both 6'0+ and 200+ lbs simultaneously, aside from a washed up Joe Louis. Nino Valdez makes the top of the list of fighters he wanted nothing to do with.

Each career was managed carefully. Dempsey kryptonite was technical boxers, who he did face but simply constantly was a disappointment against, while Marciano's kryptonite he avoided entirely. Makes sense why, he did have the shortest reach of any Heavyweight Champion, ever.

Then again not fighting Nino Valdes isn't quite like not fighting Harry Wills.

However I do think it's very telling that out of two choices for an opponent, Marciano chose to fight an overweight Don ****ell instead of Nino Valdes.

Then again not fighting Nino Valdes isn't quite like not fighting Harry Wills.

Marciano on the other hand never fought a credible opponent who was both 6'0+ and 200+ lbs simultaneously, aside from a washed up Joe Louis. Nino Valdez makes the top of the list of fighters he wanted nothing to do with.

Each career was managed carefully. Dempsey kryptonite was technical boxers, who he did face but simply constantly was a disappointment against, while Marciano's kryptonite he avoided entirely. Makes sense why, he did have the shortest reach of any Heavyweight Champion, ever.

Archie Moore beat Valdez - let's not get away from it. I see no reason why he would have troubled Rocky... EVERYONE is the division had longer arms than Rocky. His reach was only 67" which is freakishly short for someone of 5'11". I know this because I am pretty much an identical build to Rocky. Thing with having short reach is that once you get inside the opponent is virtually unable to land anything on you with any force. The worst they can do is clinch.

Archie Moore beat Valdez - let's not get away from it. I see no reason why he would have troubled Rocky... EVERYONE is the division had longer arms than Rocky. His reach was only 67" which is freakishly short for someone of 5'11". I know this because I am pretty much an identical build to Rocky. Thing with having short reach is that once you get inside the opponent is virtually unable to land anything on you with any force. The worst they can do is clinch.

The reason Valdes could've troubled him is because he was 6'3, 210+ lbs with 80 inch reach. Rocky never fought anyone of that stature that was any good.

Valdes was known for a strong jab which likely influenced Marciano's decision to fight ****ell instead. Marciano at the time was coming back from a nose injury and it was feared that the cut could open again so they took on an opponent that presented little danger.

Valdez always got found out when he stepped up, and if Moore beat him, then Rock would have just done it quicker..
There's been a lot of talk about Marciano's controversial fights with Lowrey and LaStarza.
What about Dempsey's fights with Willie Meehan and Fireman Jim Flynn?? that are constantly brushed under the carpet.. The last time i brought up this subject on a thread, i got just the one response; "Jack took a dive in the Flynn fight"
So that's forgiven is it?.. Sorry, but this isn't good enough when your're being compared to a fighter like Marciano, who would've rather taken a bullet, than a dive, for anyone..
I also can't get my head around how Dempsey can have 4 lame performances against a non-athletic type like Meehan, and then go and break nearly every bone in Jess Willard's face.. If that isn't controversial, i don't know what is?
Something doesn't add up imo, and all of these things should also be taken into consideration when comparing the two..

I thnk they are pretty close in the greatness department.

I thnk they are pretty close in the greatness department.
A detailed and informative post!

The reason Valdes could've troubled him is because he was 6'3, 210+ lbs with 80 inch reach. Rocky never fought anyone of that stature that was any good.

Valdes was known for a strong jab which likely influenced Marciano's decision to fight ****ell instead. Marciano at the time was coming back from a nose injury and it was feared that the cut could open again so they took on an opponent that presented little danger.

Marciano fought `Bingo Vingo who was 6ft 4ins with a record of 16-1 and an 80in reach, Rocky nearly killed him dishing out a brutal beating, Vingo never fought again.

I like Dempsey in a hit out between 2 of boxings greatest KO artists.

Rock could be hurt and dropped early in bouts - Walcott, Moore, Charles. None of these guys had the animal instincts of Dempsey or his short range punching power a la KO of Jack Sharkey.

I like Dempsey in a hit out between 2 of boxings greatest KO artists.

Rock could be hurt and dropped early in bouts - Walcott, Moore, Charles. None of these guys had the animal instincts of Dempsey or his short range punching power a la KO of Jack Sharkey.
Dempsey was decked 17 times as a pro..

Marciano fought `Bingo Vingo who was 6ft 4ins with a record of 16-1 and an 80in reach, Rocky nearly killed him dishing out a brutal beating, Vingo never fought again.

I was waiting for someone to bring him up.

Vingo was not a top 10 contender. He was 16-1-0 when he fought Rocky. In his last 7 bouts before he fought Rocky he had only 1 KO, and that was against a boxer that was making his pro debut.

Also, before he fought Rocky, he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds. AND he was just 2 days passed his 20th birthday.

Good Prospect, BUT far from a contender.

Marciano fought `Bingo Vingo who was 6ft 4ins with a record of 16-1 and an 80in reach, Rocky nearly killed him dishing out a brutal beating, Vingo never fought again.

20 year old Vingo also weighed 189 pounds. Other than his height and reach he had no advantages over Marciano. Valdes, if nothing else, atleast had a jab that could have potentially damaged Marciano's injured nose.

Dempsey for me, i think overall was a better boxer was good at avoiding punches and very ferocious. I would love to see more footage of him!

Who do you regard as the greater heavyweight?

Marciano...

When I was a kid, late 1950's early 1960's, the experts had Dempsey as #1 by a wide margin, as time went on, Louis took that over and now most feel that Ali is.

In 1950, the Associated Press conducted a poll of sportswriters to name the greatest fighter of all-time, pound-for-pound, and Dempsey was the runaway winner, collecting 251 votes. [Joe Louis finished a distant second with 104 votes; Henry Armstrong was third with 16.]

Note: the article below has Dempsey with 253 Louis 109 and Armstrong with 13, BUT I have 251, 104 and 16.

He was also voted 3rd, behind Jim Thorpe and Babe Ruth, as the Greatest male athlete in the 1st half century.

In the Dec 1962 Ring magazine Jack Dempsey was rated #1, and Joe Louis #2, Jack Johnson #3 and Marciano was a distant #6.

In 1991, Bert Sugar had Dempsey the top Heavyweight of all-times, now he has him at #3, behind Louis and Ali.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/dempsey.html

One thing I learned from Bert Sugar, and that is to listen to the old-timers, because they have a lot of knowledge. I talked to Ray Arcel and he had Dempsey rated very high as well.

When I was a kid, late 1950's early 1960's, the experts had Dempsey as #1 by a wide margin, as time went on, Louis took that over and now most feel that Ali is.

In 1950, the Associated Press conducted a poll of sportswriters to name the greatest fighter of all-time, pound-for-pound, and Dempsey was the runaway winner, collecting 251 votes. [Joe Louis finished a distant second with 104 votes; Henry Armstrong was third with 16.]

Note: the article below has Dempsey with 253 Louis 109 and Armstrong with 13, BUT I have 251, 104 and 16.

He was also voted 3rd, behind Jim Thorpe and Babe Ruth, as the Greatest male athlete in the 1st half century.

In the Dec 1962 Ring magazine Jack Dempsey was rated #1, and Joe Louis #2, Jack Johnson #3 and Marciano was a distant #6.

In 1991, Bert Sugar had Dempsey the top Heavyweight of all-times, now he has him at #3, behind Louis and Ali.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/dempsey.html

One thing I learned from Bert Sugar, and that is to listen to the old-timers, because they have a lot of knowledge. I talked to Ray Arcel and he had Dempsey rated very high as well.
I like Dempsey, but you never see much written about his defeats..
Ok, a multitude of historians can't all be wrong, and he is notoriously highly placed on the majority of lists, but what of his defeats?

What was it about the styles of Gene Tunney and Willie Meehan that Dempsey couldn't handle?.. Does this kind'a suggest that Larry Holmes and Tony Tubbs would've had Jack's number too?

I'd also love your take on what happened in one of his fights with Jimmy Flynn..
Is there any evidence to suggest Dempsey took a dive?

Sorry to pick your brains Henry, but you really are an invaluale teacher on this subject.

I like Dempsey, but you never see much written about his defeats..
Ok, a multitude of historians can't all be wrong, and he is notoriously highly placed on the majority of lists, but what of his defeats?

What was it about the styles of Gene Tunney and Willie Meehan that Dempsey couldn't handle?.. Does this kind'a suggest that Larry Holmes and Tony Tubbs would've had Jack's number too?

I'd also love your take on what happened in one of his fights with Jimmy Flynn..
Is there any evidence to suggest Dempsey took a dive?

Sorry to pick your brains Henry, but you really are an invaluale teacher on this subject.

I came across these two newspaper articles on another boxing forum.

SALT LAKE TRIBUNE--Feb 13, 1917

Flynn said last night "I wish I could be as positive of everything else in the future as I am that I am going to win this battle." He is so sure of victory that he is ever ready to back up his belief with some spare change. "That's gotten to be my business of late--teaching these young fellows boxing lessions," he concluded.

Dempsey is not inclined to boast, but considers himself faster than Flynn and as having a better punch. He points to the fact that he stood up before sluggers like Wild Bert Kenney, John Lester Johnson and others and that therefore he is not worrying about Flynn's attack. "Stepping stones, that's what you call them, isn't it? Well, that's what this bout is going to be for me tonight," said Dempsey.

SALT LAKE TRIBUNE--February 14, 1917

JACK DEMPSEY FLATTENED OUT IN 25 SECONDS

Jim Flynn Makes Quick Work of It at Murray; Local Man Unprepared for Onslaught

Jack Dempsey of Salt Lake lasted about twenty-five seconds in his match with Jim Flynn of Pueblo last night at Murray.
During those twenty-five seconds Flynn punched Dempsey twice on the right side of the head, twice on the left side, broke down Jack's gaurd with his right and put the finishing touches on with a steaming wallop with his left to the jaw.
Dempsey was out half a minute. When he began to regain consciousness in his corner he evidently thought he was still in a pugilistic encounter, for he put up a strenuous battle with those who were trying to bring him around.
Although Dempsey well knew that it is Flynn's way to start from the instant the gong sounds, hurling himself into the fray with all the speed and strength of which he is possessed Jack apparently made no preparation to meet that first onslaught. He looked like a man dazed by the swiftness with which things moved, and he was as helpless before those two rushes of Flynn as though he were but a child.

Taken By Storm

Those who have seen Dempsey fight have always admired his ability to take punishment but usually the punishment came in the course of a battle, and to have it come all at once, like a bolt of lightning, was too much for the local scrapper. Perhaps Dempsey could have made a better showing had he been able to weather the going for three or four rounds, but he certainly was helpless before the tornado which caught him right at the start.
During the few seconds the fight lasted Flynn made two attacks. At the beginning he bent his head downward and bored in whaling away with both hands. Then there was a wee bit of a lull, during which the referee tried to do some separating and next came the onslaught with its two blow finish.

Happened To Jim Once

Flynn himself is no stranger to the lightning knockout. Along in 1907, when Flynn and Joe Walcott were matched in San Francisco almost the identical end was put to the fracas as that which occurred in Murray last night. In the San Francisco affair Walcott and Flynn had no sooner shaken hands and separated than the negro let fly with a haymaker which put Flynn out for about thirty minutes.
Prior to the appearance of the men, Kid Egan and Slim Murphy gave a poor exhibition in four rounds. They were followed by Johnny and Alex Bratton, 9-year-olds, who sparred three one-minute rounds, and furnished all the sport that was seen at Murray last night. Those midget twins are wonderfully clever, and whack away at each other with a lusty ardor. They are equipped with soft gloves, and there is no fear of damage to either.

i knew ray arcel and he told me he thought dempsey was the best heavyweight fighter he ever saw, but not the best champion- he didnt defend it much. he thought dempsey probably would have beaten all the top heavyweights, but it was still a guess and championship pressure and regns count too. he hestited to name the greatest in any division except for a leanord or robinson because he didnt know. but he did think dempsey was the most talented heavy he had seen and p robably would have koed louis and beaten ali, marciano, tyson, etc. anyhow i favor dempsey over marciano but what a war- two guys with lit fuses in both hands, chins like rocks, and guts to spare!!!

Quote;TheGreatA: I came across these two newspaper articles on another boxing forum.

Thanks for that A.. Appears he was caught cold.. No shame in that, happened to a lot of greats, including Flynn himself.. For me, that dispells the rumour that he took a dive..

What do you think were the reasons he struggled with Meehan?

there is an article on cox's corner about the fynn fight. dempsey always said he got koed. but, there may have been more to it. meehan was defensive and probably lost one or more of those bouts than credited for the win, plus, four round limit.

I like Dempsey, but you never see much written about his defeats..
Ok, a multitude of historians can't all be wrong, and he is notoriously highly placed on the majority of lists, but what of his defeats?

What was it about the styles of Gene Tunney and Willie Meehan that Dempsey couldn't handle?.. Does this kind'a suggest that Larry Holmes and Tony Tubbs would've had Jack's number too?

I'd also love your take on what happened in one of his fights with Jimmy Flynn..
Is there any evidence to suggest Dempsey took a dive?

Sorry to pick your brains Henry, but you really are an invaluale teacher on this subject.

i knew ray arcel and he told me he thought dempsey was the best heavyweight fighter he ever saw, but not the best champion- he didnt defend it much. he thought dempsey probably would have beaten all the top heavyweights, but it was still a guess and championship pressure and regns count too. he hestited to name the greatest in any division except for a leanord or robinson because he didnt know. but he did think dempsey was the most talented heavy he had seen and p robably would have koed louis and beaten ali, marciano, tyson, etc. anyhow i favor dempsey over marciano but what a war- two guys with lit fuses in both hands, chins like rocks, and guts to spare!!!

there is an article on cox's corner about the fynn fight. dempsey always said he got koed. but, there may have been more to it. meehan was defensive and probably lost one or more of those bouts than credited for the win, plus, four round limit.


I agree with louis54 statement. As far as Flynn goes, here's another article on that bout.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/dempsey_dive.html