View Full Version : Which heavyweight champion had the best record in history and why?


The_One77
05-12-2005, 01:48 PM
Who had the best record out there in the heavyweight division of all time?
Muhammad ali
Lennox lewis
rocky marciano
larry holmes

any others everyone?

kapersky
05-12-2005, 02:33 PM
Who had the best record out there in the heavyweight division of all time?
Muhammad ali
Lennox lewis
rocky marciano
larry holmes

any others everyone?

george foreman
mike tyson(with rooney)
holyfield aswell

Cambria
05-12-2005, 02:51 PM
Depends on what you mean by record. Along with the other fighters listed Joe Louis had a great record.

dansweeney
05-12-2005, 03:06 PM
as far as competition faced, Ali has to be at the top

welshwales
05-12-2005, 04:35 PM
Ali then Lewis for me

boxstarr
05-12-2005, 05:44 PM
marciano because he was undefeated champ and no-one else has done that yet and it will be a long time before it is repeated

Shaolin Bushido
05-12-2005, 05:51 PM
george foreman
mike tyson(with rooney)
holyfield aswell

Holyfield?


No.

Cambria
05-12-2005, 06:02 PM
Holyfield did have a great record at one time before he got old. But he did fight after the aging process and hurt his legacy.

boxstarr is right about Marciano. Only HW Champ in History to do that.

Lennox fought all the greats of his day and won (or got a rematch and won).

Ali fought after his prime too, hurting his legacy IMO. Just because you say you are the greatest, doesn't make it so.

Tony Blitz
05-13-2005, 12:08 AM
Just because you say you are the greatest, doesn't make it so.

"I figured that if I said it enough, I would convince the world that I really was the greatest." -Muhammad Ali

Shaolin Bushido
05-13-2005, 12:35 AM
Holyfield did have a great record at one time before he got old. But he did fight after the aging process and hurt his legacy.

boxstarr is right about Marciano. Only HW Champ in History to do that.

Lennox fought all the greats of his day and won (or got a rematch and won).

Ali fought after his prime too, hurting his legacy IMO. Just because you say you are the greatest, doesn't make it so.

I can easily support Marciano's as the best record. He went undefeated though once he got to the big stage he didn't stay long and retired with several young contenders nipping at his ankles.

Holy's record isn't nearly as distinguished. He had a trilogy with Ruiz and a set with both Bowe and Lewis of which he dominated none.

RUIZ MAN! Hell no.

xrhythmxnxbluesx
05-13-2005, 02:27 AM
not sure... but i think riddick bowe only lost was to holyfield...

cple
05-13-2005, 02:29 AM
Ali, because he beat the best opposition.

Cambria
05-13-2005, 10:36 PM
"I figured that if I said it enough, I would convince the world that I really was the greatest." -Muhammad Ali


Not sure why you showed me that quote. Ali did say he was the greatest. Thanks though!

I actually forgot about the Ruiz v Holyfield fights. LOL wrestling v headbutts, to funny.

Yea Marciano did leave early in his career. With his exception, all fighters they all have to lose sometime.

Ceratogyrus
05-20-2005, 03:49 PM
Joe Louis - no question.
25 title defenses (undisputed)
Reigned for almost 12 years
Defeated 6 men who held the Heavyweight belt (Carnera,Baer,Schmeling,Sharkey,Braddock and Walcott.

wmute
05-20-2005, 04:05 PM
Joe Louis - no question.
25 title defenses (undisputed)
Reigned for almost 12 years
Defeated 6 men who held the Heavyweight belt (Carnera,Baer,Schmeling,Sharkey,Braddock and Walcott.

would any of those beat frazier, foreman or liston?

Ceratogyrus
05-21-2005, 03:46 PM
would any of those beat frazier, foreman or liston?


No but Louis would have. No other boxer in history dominated his era like Joe Louis.

wmute
05-21-2005, 05:01 PM
No but Louis would have. No other boxer in history dominated his era like Joe Louis.

not saying that he would not... but you should tell me how, cos they would not be easy fights anyways

anyway what I said is just that ali has a better record because if his opposition

boxer Of thE World
05-21-2005, 05:50 PM
ive watched Foreman wreck Louis, one thing i doo give to Louis is he always got up.

Martin (Top Knowledge)
05-23-2005, 07:24 AM
george foreman
mike tyson(with rooney)
holyfield aswell
MIKE TYSON!?!... Mike may have been exciting to watch but as far as his opposition went, it was probably one of the poorest faced by any heavyweight champion. And with or without Rooney, his most significant win to date, is probably that over Razzor Ruddock! - That doesn't even compare to other heavyweight greats.

I go with Muhammed Ali, because he fought so many great fighters AND more than once on some occasions!

I wouldn't go with Joe Louis, simply because he ran the bum a month club. (Or so they used to say!... LOL!).

Tony Blitz
05-23-2005, 08:08 PM
Not sure why you showed me that quote. Ali did say he was the greatest. Thanks though!

I actually forgot about the Ruiz v Holyfield fights. LOL wrestling v headbutts, to funny.

Yea Marciano did leave early in his career. With his exception, all fighters they all have to lose sometime.
Was just showing you Ali said it himself because he said it doesn't mean he is

hellfire508
05-26-2005, 06:03 AM
Muhammad Ali definately.
His resume is incomparable.
He beat the likes off George Foreman, Joe Frazier (twice) and Sonny Liston (twice). That's three top 10 heavyweights (in history), plus the likes of Floyd Patterson, Jerry Quarry, Ron Lyle, Ken Norton, Earnie Shavers, George Chuvalo, Henry Cooper, Jimmy Ellis, Archie Moore (old), Cleveland Williams, Earnie Terrell, Zora Folley, Joe Bugner...The List goes on and on and on. I'd say he beat six top 30 heavyweights in ADDITION to Liston, Frazier and Foreman.
Plus, he avenged all of his losses except for the Holmes and Berbick which I like to exclude. His quality of opposition and willingness to fight ANYONE are second to none.

Cambria
05-28-2005, 06:55 PM
Was just showing you Ali said it himself because he said it doesn't mean he is


Ah thank you.

solo1bc
06-04-2005, 03:25 PM
But did Marciano just retire at the top of his game? Was there anyone decent available to fight that he chose not to?

Yogi
06-04-2005, 03:53 PM
But did Marciano just retire at the top of his game? Was there anyone decent available to fight that he chose not to?

Here are The Ring's heavyweight rankings for the end of 1955 (when Rocky basically decided he was going to retire, although he didn't annouce it for a few more months), and I'm sure you can figure out the answer to your own question from there;

Champion: Rocky Marciano

1: Archie Moore
2: Bob Baker
3: Tommy Jackson
4: Bob Satterfield
5: Ezzard Charles
6: John Holman
7: Nino Valdes
8: Earl Walls
9: Jimmy Slade
10: Don ****ell

solo1bc
06-05-2005, 03:13 AM
Before my time Yogi so you'll have to help me out... He'd already beaten Archie Moore right?

dsh2005
06-07-2005, 02:14 PM
Cant Look Past Lennox Lewis Beat All Eventually

sanjayint
06-07-2005, 02:17 PM
Plus, he avenged all of his losses except for the Holmes and Berbick which I like to exclude. His quality of opposition and willingness to fight ANYONE are second to none.

so did Lennox Lewis !!

sanjayint
06-07-2005, 02:18 PM
Vittali Klitthscho wud have beat ali .. and lennox wud have beat um both ... but thats stupid to even compare soo i wont lol

Kid Achilles
06-07-2005, 02:43 PM
Is that wat they wud have dun?

ricecrispi
06-12-2005, 02:53 AM
Never mention Lennox Lewis as a heavyweight greatest.

He dominated in an era of decline and avoided fights.

You ever seen his fights. Boring with many viewers turning off the tv and going to sleep. Anytime he meet good competition he hid behind his jab and after throwing a right he held on like a suction cup. He and Ruiz really making boxing unbearable to watch. THAT alone he should get two losses added to his record. Hit and hold is a disgrace to boxing and should be fixed.

Steward is a smart trainer and knows Lewis's limits and fights he can win. They ducked competition when it was there and fought no namers. 2nd rate fighter or over the hill ones like Mercer, Holyfield, Tyson.

He's only exciting fight was against Klistkho. That fight he was gaining control of but was losing in points. You know he he was supposed to fight instead of Klitskho? Jamal McCline. Not Ruiz, not Byrd.

Rematch? No, Lewis fights 2nd rate fighters and past their prime fighters. The only reason he fought khilstkho, Klistkho took the fight and surprised him. You think after that fight he get a rematch. but I think he and Steward are smart. Another loss he would never be mentioned as a great champ.

ricecrispi
06-12-2005, 03:09 AM
Has to be Ali, Joe louis, and Marciano. For reasons already stated above.

Marciano retired undefeated. His only loss are in his amateur career and confused the drunks who went to those fights and claimed they saw him lose a fight.

Joe Louis stated he would've never beat Marciano even in his prime. He hate fighting guys like Marciano and swarmer type style.

I don't think any heavyweight champ could beat Marciano.
You couldn't out point him by boxing. He beat some of the best boxers of his time. He couldn't see your punches, he'd run into it head first and break your hand.
You couldn't out slug him, that was his game.
Knock him out? No chance, he ate everything and crowed your space too much. If you got him on the mat he would get up.
Outwork him. He threw excess of 100 punches a round.
Thats why he was undefeated. He should've fought more but went through too many wars.

Thats why you can't mention Lennox Lewis in the same area as Marciano, Ali, or Louis. These guys never ducked fights. Fought with heart. They were tough. They were champs

prtynacan
06-14-2005, 09:36 PM
Big guys could beat marciano - I think foreman, liston, Lewis and Ali all would've beaten the Rock. Gotta remember he was about 5'10", 185 and had a really short reach. These guys would just be too big for him. Of course, I consider the Rock a far greater champ than foreman, liston and Lewis based on dominance over his era and his heart. I never think it's good to judge fighters head to head from different eras based on the increased science in training and nutrition that allow boxers to reach new peaks in terms of conditioning, power and speed.

RastaSmoker
06-18-2005, 05:38 AM
If i had to pick i would say Young Stribling. His record was 239-14-14 with 127 KOs . The thing that is most impressive to me is that he did this all in 12 years. Unfortunatly he was killed in 1933 in a motorcycle crash. If you do the math thats 1 fight every 17 days on average.

# of fights per year

1921 25 fights
1922 34 fights
1923 28 fights
1924 35 fights
1925 33 fights
1926 17 fights
1927 22 fights
1928 40 fights
1929 21 fights
1930 10 fights
1931 5 fights
1932 13 fights
1933 4 fights

GOAT
06-23-2005, 07:31 PM
But did Marciano just retire at the top of his game? Was there anyone decent available to fight that he chose not to?

Floyd Patterson.

And Sonny Liston was making some serious noise already.

NeoMorpheus
06-24-2005, 05:42 AM
I don't think any heavyweight champ could beat Marciano.
[/QUOTE]

This is an unfortunate, misguided opinion. Marciano would absolutely have been eaten alive by at least a dozen heavyweights in history. I absolutely can see how any of Ali, Louis, Foreman, Frazier, Holmes, Tyson, Lewis could beat Marciano during their primes - with some ease. If Walcott could outbox him for 13 rounds, imagine what a precision puncher like Holmes could do.

In so far as the topic is concerned, I think the best records in the heavyweight division belong to;

Ali
Louis
Holmes
Johnson
Lewis
Marciano

in that order.

Marciano had how many fights at championship level? 6/7? Against who exactly. He gets in through the backdoor of that list on the strength of having never lost.

Slipx
06-24-2005, 06:02 AM
records really dont mean much

hence the gayness of this thread is maximized

look at castillo and johnson

esp old school fighters..back then they'd just throw the local tough guy in the ring..not like they were constantly putting down #1 contenders..

Kid Achilles
06-25-2005, 09:31 AM
If Walcott could outbox him for 13 rounds, imagine what a precision puncher like Holmes could do.

Complete ignorance. Walcott was quicker than Holmes and sharp and cagey as hell. The only thing Holmes had on Walcott was a better chin and size. You act like it was this miraculous thing that JJW outboxed Marciano, on the level of Botha outboxing Tyson for several rounds*, when in fact Walcott outboxed most of the opponents he fought. If Walcott had an iron chin he would have been a top five heavyweight of all time.

angelo_dundee
06-25-2005, 07:27 PM
Muhammad fought in the toughest and most competitive era ever for HW boxing, and he was a dominant champion. He beat the other great fighters of his era, (or won more against them then they did him), and for that alone he must be #1.

leff
06-26-2005, 09:07 PM
marciano by a mile

VEGADAMUS
06-26-2005, 10:01 PM
marciano because he was undefeated champ and no-one else has done that yet and it will be a long time before it is repeated
what he said

Imira
06-27-2005, 12:38 AM
I'm torn on this one. Ali fought and defeated many opponents that are collectively considered to be part of the finest era of heavyweights in history.

Foreman is the only heavyweight champion in history with a destructive KO of not just one but TWO hall of fame opponents of legendary caliber. Frazier and Norton.

Rocky Marciano is, of course, an automatic choice because of his undefeated record. And before anyone gets suspicious of his opponents, it bears noting that from 1950 to 1955 he most certainly defeated top ten competition.

Joe Louis and Larry Holmes and their number of title defenses get a nod as well.

dmar
06-27-2005, 06:29 PM
marciano because he was undefeated champ and no-one else has done that yet and it will be a long time before it is repeated
yes not only was marciano the only undefeated heavyweight champ..it goes beyound that..hes the only champ in boxing history to go undefeated without a draw or loss..the only 1..49-0 43 kos is a great record..

Dempsey 1919
12-20-2005, 01:45 AM
marciano's record looks the best, cause he never lost, but ali fought and beat by far the best competition. joe louis looks pretty good in the record department too. so does holmes.

Brassangel
12-20-2005, 10:58 AM
Big guys could beat marciano - I think foreman, liston, Lewis and Ali all would've beaten the Rock. Gotta remember he was about 5'10", 185 and had a really short reach. These guys would just be too big for him. Of course, I consider the Rock a far greater champ than foreman, liston and Lewis based on dominance over his era and his heart. I never think it's good to judge fighters head to head from different eras based on the increased science in training and nutrition that allow boxers to reach new peaks in terms of conditioning, power and speed.

This quote is a very intelligent one. We have to consider avoiding the obvious, era-spanning cross pollination. Obviously, Ali, Holmes, Foreman, Tyson, or Lewis would have beaten Rocky Marciano. All of them had considerable weight advantages, conditioning, and diet plans that they just didn't concern themselves with in the 1950's. The difference in conditioning is what separates every era; even the golden 60's and 70's; from today. "Toughest competition...," this and "biggest wins..." that; we're just talking about records here.

With that aside, we have to look at who, technically, was the greatest heavyweight champion (via record). Forget crossing eras in this discussion and just get down to the obvious.

1. Rocky Marciano - regardless of what was going on during the 50's, he retired as the undefeated champion. This, by default, gives him the best record, and the only one of his kind. Does this make him the best boxer in history? No.

2. Joe Louis - defended 25 times over the course of 11 years. A reigning period that will not be matched for a long, long time.

3. Muhammad Ali - While the Norton trilogy was a case of people being paid off, it's safe to say that Ali could redeem himself of any loss. Nobody had style or ring generalship like "The Greatest." The championship never felt as though it was in the proper hands unless his was with Ali.

4. Larry Holmes - Vastly overlooked; probably the greatest longevity in the sport's history. Many people assumed, that because there weren't many huge names in his time he didn't fight stiff competition. Again, the conditioning was vastly different after the respective retirements of the kings of the 70's.

5. Joe Frazier - In all fairness, he defeated his biggest challenger in their first bout, when many felt that Joe Frazier was just a paper champ. He clipped the Butterfly's wings when he won a battle with Muhammad Ali. Were it not for George Foreman, or Ali fights 2 and 3, Joe may have reigned undefeated. Those were his only losses after all.

Honorable Mentions:

Sonny Liston - He dominated the boxing scene by simply destroying all comers. I almost put him at number 5, but Joe Frazier remained a truly quality fighter until the end. Were it not for the deep depression and connections to organized crime, he probably would have given Ali a better showing. However, as with the following fighters, a great champion keeps his focus on what's important to him.

Mike Tyson - He got to 37-0 as champ before the cataclysmic end to the most promising career in sports history took place in Japan. Again, eras aside, he was drawing more viewers and competition to the sport than anyone before him. A great champion, however, wouldn't have allowed Japan or the canning of Rooney to take place, which is why he's not on the top portion of this list.

Lennox Lewis - Regardless of who he fought or what rematches did or didn't take place, he retired with very few losses. However, a great champion would have taken on all comers, which is why he was left off of the top portion of the list.

There are others, but I'm weary of this post at the moment, so I'll wait a while. :boxing:

Two Fisted Piston
12-20-2005, 05:19 PM
marciano because he was undefeated champ and no-one else has done that yet and it will be a long time before it is repeated
What if Valuev retired tommorrow would that count?

dangerousity
12-20-2005, 05:39 PM
Ali
Lewis
Louis
Holmes
George

Da Iceman
12-22-2005, 11:52 AM
Ali
Lewis
Louis
Holmes
George
wheres marciano on your list?

RAESAAD
12-22-2005, 12:02 PM
I respect Lennox Lewiss' record alot because he beat all the top guys of his time except Moorer and bowe because he never faced them and his only losses were avenged by tko/ko but there are many great HW champions so it is hard to say whose record is the best.

Brassangel
12-22-2005, 12:36 PM
It is a difficult vote to make. Each fighter's resume is defined by a number of variable things. As far as who beat the most hall-of-famers, you'd probably have to go with Muhammad Ali. Then again, the fighters of the 60's and 70's struggled greatly with the journeymen and mid-range fighters of that era as well. Could have just been a lack of preparation while looking forward to a future epic trilogy with a bigger name.

If you consider knockouts, then guys like Rocky Marciano, George Foreman, and Mike Tyson hover near the top of the list for flattening so many of their opponents.

When in doubt, I guess you could just go by wins vs. losses.

Da Iceman
12-22-2005, 12:39 PM
thats what i was goin by

Keleneki
12-22-2005, 12:47 PM
Who had the best record out there in the heavyweight division of all time?
Muhammad ali
Lennox lewis
rocky marciano
larry holmes

any others everyone?

Great list. I would also add George Foreman. It is so amzing to me that both he and Larry Holmes had such great success in the second careers. Too bad that the window for when they could have fought one another was so small and we missed that great encounter.

Come to think of it, I would also add Joe Louis to the list. What a thing his rematch was with Max Schmeling. Who can imagine the pressure that he was under with those conditions (the only fighter to ever beat him professionally at that point in time, the whole world stage, ...). The importance of that one fight alone makes Louis worthy of said list, let alone everything else that he accomplished. :)

ag512bbi
12-25-2005, 05:51 PM
Of course Marciano...
I enjoyed Holmes Reign. Even though the opposition wasn't all that great, I enjoyed watching his style. he did go 47? 48? - 0 until Spinks came along.

supaduck
12-25-2005, 05:57 PM
Marciano. Undefeated. This thread is now worthless.