Well.....

Name some All Time Great Fighters, who just cound't handle a certain fighters style, and could just never get to grips with it/him.

Even do, he was a greater fighter than the fellow fighter and even if he may of won in the fight, but still struggled.

Here's a few......

-Ken Norton to Muhhamad Ali
-Frankie Randall to Julio Cesar Chavez
-Iran Barkley to Thomas Hearns
-Junior Jones to Marco Antonio Barrera
-Chucho Castillo To Ruben Olivares
-Ray Mercer To Lennox Lewis
-Wilfredo Rivera To Pernell Whitaker

Get Thinking........

joe Frazier had problems with foreman & mosely vs vernon Forrest

add Roy jones vs tarver(I thought tarver won or at worst had a draw with rjj the first fight).Forrest vs mayorga...Forrest I guess isn't an alltime great.

Mosley vs Forrest
Tarver vs Jones Jr
Forrest vs Mayorga

Are great picks........

joe Frazier had problems with foreman & mosely vs vernon Forrest

Yea, Frazier's tendency to take a few punches in order to give them put him in a spot of trouble against Foreman

Sandy Saddler to Willie Pep
Iran Barkley to Thomas Hearns
Ray Leonard to Roberto Duran
Gene Tunney to Jack Dempsey
Willie Meehan to Jack Dempsey
Harry Wills to Sam Langford
Jim Corbett to John L Sullivan
Sonny Liston to Floyd Patterson
Muhammad Ali to Sonny Liston
Ken Norton to Muhammad Ali
Bernard Hopkins to Felix Trinidad

Arguments could be made for DLH JCC and Paul Pender SRR, but in fairness, both Chavez and Robinson were past their primes..

Pryor to Arguello
Hearns to Duran
Wright to Mosley

Nobody who fought Harry Grebb could handle his style.

Nobody who fought Harry Grebb could handle his style.

Besides Tunney who went 3-1-1 with him and Kid Norfolk.:omfg:

Besides Tunney who went 3-1-1 with him and Kid Norfolk.:omfg:

Greb was blind in one eye in all of those fights. The decision in Grebb vs Tunny II is somewhat disputed. Many people think that Grebb won 3 of those fights. It wasn't really until their fifth and final fight that Tunny had Grebb sussed (something that Grebb Acknowledged. But it should be taken into account that Tunny outweighed Grebb by 15lbs.

Grebb was probably past it by the time he fought Kid Norfolk, he's clocked up over 300 fights by that time. Kid Norfolk was a great fighter though.

I think if you look at how many fights Grebb had, how many opponents were involved, the vast disparity of styles and weights... then Grebb was the hardest opponent for anyone to get to grips with. Nobody ever fought like him before or since. He was utterly unique.

I want to say Tszyu with rough, pressure fighters like Phillips and Hatton.

A better example of a style that troubled Olivares was Rafael Herrera who beat him twice, stopping him once. He really took command in their fights, got his punches off first and Ruben just didn't have an answer for it.

Azumah Nelson late in his career never could master Jesse James Leija like he had done to fighters earlier in his career. Leija was just had too much boxing skill and toughness for the faded Azumah too handle.

Fighting Harada to Eder Jofre

I believe Ali struggled pretty bad with Frazier's style. Had Frazier not been half blind with a shoulder injury I think the rematch fights would have been a bit different. Ali couldn't do much in the first fight.

I love that fight. Round 15, 20 seconds in, Joe weaves, left hook to the face, Ali goes down. Beautiful.

Muhammed Ali vs Larry Holmes

Ali was far past his glory days and wasnt really ducking the punches or had as much head movement as he used to and larry holmes took advantage of that and beated ali all the way through that night :(

I believe Ali struggled pretty bad with Frazier's style. Had Frazier not been half blind with a shoulder injury I think the rematch fights would have been a bit different. Ali couldn't do much in the first fight.

I love that fight. Round 15, 20 seconds in, Joe weaves, left hook to the face, Ali goes down. Beautiful.



The only time he claimed victory against Ali was when he was when he had fought just twice in four years,and even then frazier took an absolute beating.


A well past his prime Ali was able to outbox frazier with ease in their rematch and outfight and outlast frazier at his own game in their third fight,forcing frazier to quit in his own corner.


frazier was always inferior to the likes of Ali,foreman,and most likely any decent heavyweight with a big punch.

The only time he claimed victory against Ali was when he was when he had fought just twice in four years,and even then frazier took an absolute beating.


Give me a break. You're going to try to use the excuse that Ali hadn't fought in 4 years which is why he lost? Watch the fight. Frazier outlasted Ali, showed he could take a punch better than Ali, and landed way bigger shots. And he was blind in one eye.

Frazier was great for his size, he just didn't have the technique and ability to take on the much larger heavyweights, like Foreman. I think prime for prime he beats Ali 50% of the time.

Give me a break. You're going to try to use the excuse that Ali hadn't fought in 4 years which is why he lost? Watch the fight. Frazier outlasted Ali, showed he could take a punch better than Ali, and landed way bigger shots. And he was blind in one eye.

Frazier was great for his size, he just didn't have the technique and ability to take on the much larger heavyweights, like Foreman. I think prime for prime he beats Ali 50% of the time.



It's not just an excuse,it's a fact! Try watching Ali's previous fight with Oscar bonavena.How is a three and a half year hiatus not going to hurt a fighter who's defense and offense relies heavily on his reflexes?


frazier has one of the weakest chins of any heavyweight champion.for you to suggest that he had a greater chin than Ali is laughable to say the least.frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers for a reason.The only time he ever stepped in the ring with a puncher,he got put down eight times.



A washed up Ali beat frazier(who was far closer to his prime) twice convincingly and almost beat a prime frazier despite being four years past it and carrying more rust than a warehouse bucket.A prime Ali would have had no trouble with a leech like frazier.

Give me a break. You're going to try to use the excuse that Ali hadn't fought in 4 years which is why he lost? Watch the fight. Frazier outlasted Ali, showed he could take a punch better than Ali, and landed way bigger shots. And he was blind in one eye.

Frazier was great for his size, he just didn't have the technique and ability to take on the much larger heavyweights, like Foreman. I think prime for prime he beats Ali 50% of the time.
Ring rust was the reason Ali lost. He didn't have the stamina to go into the later rounds. He was beating Frazier in the first half of the fight with ease. Then he started to get tired and gave some of the rounds away. It was actually a very close fight and I had Ali winning it by two rounds.

And how could you say that Frazier had a better chin than Ali? Frazier was knocked down six times by Foreman, while Ali never did. That example alone should show you who had the better chin.

It's not just an excuse,it's a fact! Try watching Ali's previous fight with Oscar bonavena.How is a three and a half year hiatus not going to hurt a fighter who's defense and offense relies heavily on his reflexes?


frazier has one of the weakest chins of any heavyweight champion.for you to suggest that he had a greater chin than Ali is laughable to say the least.frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers for a reason.The only time he ever stepped in the ring with a puncher,he got put down eight times.



A washed up Ali beat frazier(who was far closer to his prime) twice convincingly and almost beat a prime frazier despite being four years past it and carrying more rust than a warehouse bucket.A prime Ali would have had no trouble with a leech like frazier.


Why did he fight two of the hardest punchers of all time in Foster and Foreman then? If he ducked punchers. They don't punch much harder than them two

Paulie

Ring rust was the reason Ali lost. He didn't have the stamina to go into the later rounds. He was beating Frazier in the first half of the fight with ease. Then he started to get tired and gave some of the rounds away. It was actually a very close fight and I had Ali winning it by two rounds.

And how could you say that Frazier had a better chin than Ali? Frazier was knocked down six times by Foreman, while Ali never did. That example alone should show you who had the better chin.

1 - He did have a couple fights prior to facing Frazier. If he still felt rusty, he should have trained hard and sparred more often, and put the fight off a few months until he was ready.

2 - I'm not saying he had a better chin than Ali. Everybody knows what kind of abuse Ali could take and stay on his feet. All I'm saying is in that fight, Ali landed a lot of shots. Joe was a fighter that put his face out there and took a lot of punches, so to say that Frazier had no chin is laughable. Ali was the one that got knocked down in the 15th, not Joe.

3 - Ali was much bigger than Frazier and was a much better matchup for Foreman. Foreman was just too big for Joe to penetrate.

1 - He did have a couple fights prior to facing Frazier. If he still felt rusty, he should have trained hard and sparred more often, and put the fight off a few months until he was ready.

2 - I'm not saying he had a better chin than Ali. Everybody knows what kind of abuse Ali could take and stay on his feet. All I'm saying is in that fight, Ali landed a lot of shots. Joe was a fighter that put his face out there and took a lot of punches, so to say that Frazier had no chin is laughable. Ali was the one that got knocked down in the 15th, not Joe.

3 - Ali was much bigger than Frazier and was a much better matchup for Foreman. Foreman was just too big for Joe to penetrate.

1 - He had two fights and he didn't look at all like his best.

2 - When you're exhausted and you run out of stamina, it's easier to get hurt.

3 - They actually weighed about the same against Foreman. And Frazier was closer to his prime than Ali was.

It's not just an excuse,it's a fact! Try watching Ali's previous fight with Oscar bonavena.How is a three and a half year hiatus not going to hurt a fighter who's defense and offense relies heavily on his reflexes?


frazier has one of the weakest chins of any heavyweight champion.for you to suggest that he had a greater chin than Ali is laughable to say the least.frazier spent his entire career ducking punchers for a reason.The only time he ever stepped in the ring with a puncher,he got put down eight times.



A washed up Ali beat frazier(who was far closer to his prime) twice convincingly and almost beat a prime frazier despite being four years past it and carrying more rust than a warehouse bucket.A prime Ali would have had no trouble with a leech like frazier.

lmao! Wow, so '71 Ali was washed up?! Give me a BREAK! You have lost any right to post again in this thread. At the time he fought Frazier he had more than enough time to condition himself, and after this fight he went on to win the fights that defined his legacy. :stooges:

The way I see it, prime Ali lost to a prime Frazier in 71, and a prime Ali beat a washed up, disabled Frazier later on in life. I can't believe the idiocy of these Frazier haters!

Or wait, I must be a Frazier nut hugger. :love:

Get a clue and give the guy credit where it's due.

1 - He had two fights and he didn't look at all like his best.

2 - When you're exhausted and you run out of stamina, it's easier to get hurt.

3 - They actually weighed about the same against Foreman. And Frazier was closer to his prime than Ali was.

1 - That's bull****. Just because another fighter can make you look bad, doesn't mean that "he wasn't at his best." Joe out boxed him and made him look bad, plain and simple.

2 - Doesn't that go both ways? Come on, dude.

3 - That's seriously the best you can come up with? Come on, duuuuuude. Ali was 6'3-6'4, same as Foreman! Joe was barely 5'11! WTF??? I'm not making an excuse, Joe got pummeled by Big George, but can't you give the man any credit?

Why did he fight two of the hardest punchers of all time in Foster and Foreman then? If he ducked punchers. They don't punch much harder than them two

Paulie


He fought an unranked,light heavyweight who never carried his power up to heavyweight.Foreman wasn't regarded very highly at the time.There were many punchers that Frazier ducked throughout his career.You only have to watch the Foreman fight to see why he did.....his fragile chin couldn't absorb such power.





He did have a couple fights prior to facing Frazier. If he still felt rusty, he should have trained hard and sparred more often, and put the fight off a few months until he was ready.


He had two fights before Frazier.The first fight lasting just three rounds,and the next fight which lasted fifteen rounds in which his lengthy absence from the ring was obvious.


It's good to know that you concede that he was as rusty as an old nail.



I'm not saying he had a better chin than Ali. Everybody knows what kind of abuse Ali could take and stay on his feet. All I'm saying is in that fight, Ali landed a lot of shots. Joe was a fighter that put his face out there and took a lot of punches, so to say that Frazier had no chin is laughable. Ali was the one that got knocked down in the 15th, not Joe.


Ali wasn't a puncher and never was.If that was Foreman's,Liston's,Lyle's or even a Mac Fosters punches that he was taking then fair enough.


Frazier never proved a chin against big punchers.


Ali was much bigger than Frazier and was a much better matchup for Foreman. Foreman was just too big for Joe to penetrate.



Typical of a Frazier apologist to hide behind the whole "styles make fights" excuse.Frazier was never even competitive against the big punching Foreman.Every time Foreman touched him,he folded like an accordion.

He fought an unranked,light heavyweight who never carried his power up to heavyweight.Foreman wasn't regarded very highly at the time.There were many punchers that Frazier ducked throughout his career.You only have to watch the Foreman fight to see why he did.....his fragile chin couldn't absorb such power.

Typical of a Frazier apologist to hide behind the whole "styles make fights" excuse.Frazier was never even competitive against the big punching Foreman.Every time Foreman touched him,he folded like an accordion.

I'm not going to spend anymore time arguing with you, but the truth is, not many guys could take a punch from Big George! He hit Ali so hard he put his eyes into the back of his head. Ali said he would black out and forget where he was. It's not that Joe had a weak chin, he could contend, it's just that Foreman hit like a semi and Frazier couldn't get close enough to hit him! He got his ass kicked.

1 - That's bull****. Just because another fighter can make you look bad, doesn't mean that "he wasn't at his best." Joe out boxed him and made him look bad, plain and simple.

2 - Doesn't that go both ways? Come on, dude.

3 - That's seriously the best you can come up with? Come on, duuuuuude. Ali was 6'3-6'4, same as Foreman! Joe was barely 5'11! WTF??? I'm not making an excuse, Joe got pummeled by Big George, but can't you give the man any credit?

1 - Are you telling me that he looked like the Ali of old against Quarry and Bonavena, prior to fighting Frazier? If so, it's hard to take your opinion seriously.

2 - Actually, Frazier that night had incredible stamina. Ali didn't. So, in that case, it doesn't work both ways.

3 - While Ali may have been taller, Frazier had a more compact body. Frazier was also the naturally heavier guy when not training for a fight.

lmao! Wow, so '71 Ali was washed up?! Give me a BREAK! You have lost any right to post again in this thread. At the time he fought Frazier he had more than enough time to condition himself, and after this fight he went on to win the fights that defined his legacy. :stooges:

The way I see it, prime Ali lost to a prime Frazier in 71, and a prime Ali beat a washed up, disabled Frazier later on in life. I can't believe the idiocy of these Frazier haters!

Or wait, I must be a Frazier nut hugger. :love:

Get a clue and give the guy credit where it's due.



Try actually reading a post before responding to it,moron.Ali was most certainly washed up in 1974 and 1975,when,as I said,he beat Frazier twice convincingly.


I lost right to post on an internet forum?


http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_2_SQZKe4yoY/SdFZUc3NgGI/AAAAAAAAAxg/MFwaLDrX4iI/s400/normal_internet-seriousbusiness.jpg




He went on to "win the fights that defined his legacy" due to him being an active competitor once again.When Frazier fought Ali the second and third time,he was no longer dealing with a fighter with just two professional fights in four years.



You can't believe the idiocy of the "frazier haters" and yet you make a silly claim in that Frazier even fought a prime Ali to begin with.By making such a claim,you quite clearly haven't watched Ali's fights from 1965-1967.You quite clearly haven't seen Ali's fight with Oscar Bonavena(just three months before his first fight Frazier).



You're not a Frazier "nuthugger".I will leave such accusations to those who have actually seen Frazier's fights with others that didn't involve Ali and Foreman




I'm not going to spend anymore time arguing with you, but the truth is, not many guys could take a punch from Big George! He hit Ali so hard he put his eyes into the back of his head. Ali said he would black out and forget where he was. It's not that Joe had a weak chin, he could contend, it's just that Foreman hit like a semi and Frazier couldn't get close enough to hit him! He got his ass kicked.


Foreman wasn't even landing his heaviest shots on Frazier.Frazier went down like a sack of spuds at the slightest of contact.Now compare Foreman's glancing scrapes to the bombs he was landing on Ron Lyle.Had it been Frazier in there with Foreman that night,then Frazier would have ended up in a coma most likely

1 - Are you telling me that he looked like the Ali of old against Quarry and Bonavena, prior to fighting Frazier? If so, it's hard to take your opinion seriously.

2 - Actually, Frazier that night had incredible stamina. Ali didn't. So, in that case, it doesn't work both ways.

3 - While Ali may have been taller, Frazier had a more compact body. Frazier was also the naturally heavier guy when not training for a fight.

1 - When did he look like the Ali of old after his hiatus? The Ali of old didn't beat Foreman and Frazier and everybody else after '70.

2 - So Frazier was better conditioned. That's Ali's fault and is not a valid argument point.

3 - Ali beat Foreman with footwork, a jab, and more stamina. None of which Joe had, making it a terrible playing field. I'm not making excuses for Joe. I don't think he could have beat Foreman at any point in his career. George was a better, bigger, stronger, harder hitting fighter than Joe.

1 - When did he look like the Ali of old after his hiatus? The Ali of old didn't beat Foreman and Frazier and everybody else after '70.

2 - So Frazier was better conditioned. That's Ali's fault and is not a valid argument point.

3 - Ali beat Foreman with footwork, a jab, and more stamina. None of which Joe had, making it a terrible playing field. I'm not making excuses for Joe. I don't think he could have beat Foreman at any point in his career. George was a better, bigger, stronger, harder hitting fighter than Joe.

1 - I never said he looked like the Ali of old. I was asking if you meant that, which was pretty obvious. He got better in the mid 70s but never went back to what he used to be. He had enough to beat Foreman and enough to Frazier even more convincingly.

2 - Ali's fault? He was banned from the ring for like four years and only had two fights. One lasting three rounds and the other going the distance. In the one going the distance, he looked nothing like the Ali of the 60s. It was clear that he had stamina problems.

3 - Ali beat Foreman with footwork, a jab and stamina? No.. did you actually say that? I'm now convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about. Not only that, but you didn't even watch the fight.

Try actually reading a post before responding to it,moron.Ali was most certainly washed up in 1974 and 1975,when,as I said,he beat Frazier twice convincingly.


I lost right to post on an internet forum?


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He went on to "win the fights that defined his legacy" due to him being an active competitor once again.When Frazier fought Ali the second and third time,he was no longer dealing with a fighter with just two professional fights in four years.



You can't believe the idiocy of the "frazier haters" and yet you make a silly claim in that Frazier even fought a prime Ali to begin with.By making such a claim,you quite clearly haven't watched Ali's fights from 1965-1967.You quite clearly haven't seen Ali's fight with Oscar Bonavena(just three months before his first fight Frazier).



You're not a Frazier "nuthugger".I will leave such accusations to those who have actually seen Frazier's fights with others that didn't involve Ali and Foreman

So now you're assuming which fights I've seen? haha :tool:

You wanna talk all this mess about prime Ali, but the fact is, in what you call his prime, he beat an over rated small Floyd Patterson and a Liston that took a phony dive so he could get back home and shoot heroin in a hurry.

The fights that people know him for are his bouts with Frazier and Foreman. And the style that Ali fought with in the first Frazier bout was the same style he used for the rest of his career, albeit he did refine it later, but it was never exactly like the Ali of the 60's.

1 - I never said he looked like the Ali of old. I was asking if you meant that, which was pretty obvious. He got better in the mid 70s but never went back to what he used to be. He had enough to beat Foreman and enough to Frazier even more convincingly.

2 - Ali's fault? He was banned from the ring for like four years and only had two fights. One lasting three rounds and the other going the distance. In the one going the distance, he looked nothing like the Ali of the 60s. It was clear that he had stamina problems.

3 - Ali beat Foreman with footwork, a jab and stamina? No.. did you actually say that? I'm now convinced that you have no idea what you're talking about. Not only that, but you didn't even watch the fight.

blah blah, you're getting boring and coming off track with baseless insults. And I did watch that fight just 2-3 weeks ago, along with a few other Foreman fights.

So now you're assuming which fights I've seen? haha :tool:

You wanna talk all this mess about prime Ali, but the fact is, in what you call his prime, he beat an over rated small Floyd Patterson and a Liston that took a phony dive so he could get back home and shoot heroin in a hurry.

The fights that people know him for are his bouts with Frazier and Foreman. And the style that Ali fought with in the first Frazier bout was the same style he used for the rest of his career, albeit he did refine it later, but it was never exactly like the Ali of the 60's.


I'm not going to spend anymore time arguing with you



Changed your mind,did you?


Yes,I am going to assume which fights you haven't seen,and through posts like this,I have good reason to


Ali beat Foreman with footwork


Arguably the most famous fight in the history of the sport,a story of which can be told be even the most common of people who don't even follow the sport and you claim that Foreman was beaten through footwork? :dunce:



Resorting to personal attacks against Floyd Patterson and Sonny Liston now are we?

You're already ignorant enough about the sport and it's athlete's professional careers,the last thing you want to be doing is bringing up their personal life's........or would you like me to bring up Frazier's also?


You've already conceded that Ali was nowhere near his prime when he returned in the 1970's.You're perhaps the only person naive enough to believe that he was at his best after fighting just twice in four years.Not only did Frazier not beat a prime Ali,he never even beat the best version of the comeback Ali.

I got a question here. I see a lot of talk about Ali not being prime, being out of shape etc. etc. etc. Did Ali ever make any excuses for losing to Frazier?

I got a question here. I see a lot of talk about Ali not being prime, being out of shape etc. etc. etc. Did Ali ever make any excuses for losing to Frazier?
Ali never said he lost the first fight to Frazier....Ali believed he won the first fight...i do too, infact, Larry Merchant who was at ringside for the fight of the century scored the fight to Muhammad Ali (Howard Cosell mentioned it during ABC's broadcast of Ali vs Frazier II)

who is the idiot that said Ali beat Foreman with footwork???? whomever said that should be pistol whipped.....you just proved you don't know ****e about boxing

Duran and Benitez.

I'm sure Duran could not have beaten Benitez even if they had fought 3 times.

Zahir Raheem and Erik Morales
Pacquiao and Barrera
Hearns and Duran
Witherspoon and Holmes
Jones and Hopkins
Jones and Toney