in this thread give your list of fighters and their avoided opponents.
one can also give excuses and reasons why the fights did not happen.
i start , and may edit my list in the future :
floyd mayweather :
miguel cotto
paul williams
antonio margaritto


shane mosley :
floyd mayweather
paul williams

manny pacquiao :
shane mosley

juan manuel marquez :
naseem hamed (marquez was hamed's mandatory but chose not to get his shot)

roy jones :
steve collins
frankie liles
gerald mcclellan
julian jackson


bernard hopkins :
chad dawson
reggie johnson
julian jackson
mike mccallum

kelly pavlik :
paul williams

george foreman :
lennox lewis

riddick bowe :
lennox lewis

ray leonard :
marvin hagler (rematch)

michael spinks :
tony tucker



did one of the below duck anyone :
vitali klitschko , lennox lewis , wladimir klitschko , nikolay valuev
mike tyson , evander holyfield , oliver mccall , david tua ,
sultan ibragimov , ruslan chagaev , chris byrd
john ruiz , michael moorer , hassim rahman

Jack Dempsey
-Harry Willis
-Harry Greb

Tony Zale
-Charley Burley
-Jake Lamotta
-Holman Williams

Jack Johnson
-Sam Langford Rematch

Joe Calzaghe
-Glen Johnson

Ricky Hatton
-Junior Witter

Lennox Lewis:

Riddick Bowe (93) & (95)
John Ruiz
Chris Byrd
Mike Tyson (96)
---------------

Marvin Hagler

Ray Leonard (90)
Thomas Hearns
Dwight Braxton
--------------------

Joe Calzaghe

Glen Johnson - 3 times
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones
Dariusz Michelzchevski
-------------------

Ricky Hatton

Junior Witter
Otkal Urkal
Miguel Cotto
Vivian Harris
---------------

Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Antonio Margarito
Miguel Cotto
------------------

Lennox Lewis:

Riddick Bowe (93) & (95)
John Ruiz
Chris Byrd
Mike Tyson (96)
---------------

Marvin Hagler

Ray Leonard (90)
Thomas Hearns
Dwight Braxton
--------------------
Lewis didn't avoid Bowe and Tyson. It's actually the other way around.

And how did Hagler avoid Hearns, Leonard and Qawi? He fought Hearns. He fought Leonard and tried to get a rematch. And how did he duck Qawi? Qawi was a light heavyweight/cruiserweight, while Hagler was a middleweight.

So you've come to this forum too? :pat:

Jess Willard avoided Fred Fulton who had handled him in a boxing exhibition.

Lewis didn't avoid Bowe and Tyson. It's actually the other way around.

And how did Hagler avoid Hearns, Leonard and Qawi? He fought Hearns. He fought Leonard and tried to get a rematch. And how did he duck Qawi? Qawi was a light heavyweight/cruiserweight, while Hagler was a middleweight.

Here is a link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0eins2DhSo

Lewis also turned down $10 million in 95 to face Bowe
Lewis accepted $3 million step-a-side money when No1 contender for Mike Tysons WBC title in 96 Lewis could have said"NO" and got a gauranteed title fight and a career highest purse.. instead he waited 6yrs for Tyson to self-destruct even more...

Leonard offered Hagler a Big Money rematch in 90
Hearns chased a rematch with Hagler for 2yrs
Braxton was Light-Heavyweight Champion when Hagler was middleweight champion a match-up was often mooted but Hagler wanted none of it.

So you've come to this forum too? :pat:

Jess Willard avoided Fred Fulton who had handled him in a boxing exhibition.

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9F01E2DC153EE033A25750C0A9649D946496D6CF

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=2293&dat=19180317&id=6-YmAAAAIBAJ&sjid=_AIGAAAAIBAJ&pg=896,2931242

Here is a link:

Lewis also turned down $10 million in 95 to face Bowe
Lewis accepted $3 million step-a-side money when No1 contender for Mike Tysons WBC title in 96 Lewis could have said"NO" and got a gauranteed title fight and a career highest purse.. instead he waited 6yrs for Tyson to self-destruct even more...

Leonard offered Hagler a Big Money rematch in 90
Hearns chased a rematch with Hagler for 2yrs
Braxton was Light-Heavyweight Champion when Hagler was middleweight champion a match-up was often mooted but Hagler wanted none of it.
Bowe was making up an excuse. That doesn't mean it was the truth. I mean come'on.. he threw his title in the garbage can, instead of facing the man who beat him in the Olympics.

Tyson refused to fight Lewis and instead fought Seldon. I don't know about you, but choosing to fight Seldon (non-mandatory) instead of Lewis (mandatory) means you're ducking.

Hagler vs Leonard happened in 1987. Hagler kept asking for a rematch but Leonard refused. Finally, in 1989, he retired. Two years of chasing for a rematch means he was ducking?

Hagler faced Hearns and knocked him out. I don't see how that's ducking, if he already faced him and beat him.

Hagler won the middleweight championhip one year before Qawi won the light heavyweight championship.

Hagler was a natural middleweight, while Qawi was a natural light heavyweight. What would be the point in gaining all of that unnatural weight just to end up losing?

Bowe was making up an excuse. That doesn't mean it was the truth. I mean come'on.. he threw his title in the garbage can, instead of facing the man who beat him in the Olympics.

Tyson refused to fight Lewis and instead fought Seldon. I don't know about you, but choosing to fight Seldon (non-mandatory) instead of Lewis (mandatory) means you're ducking.

Hagler vs Leonard happened in 1987. Hagler kept asking for a rematch but Leonard refused. Finally, in 1989, he retired. Two years of chasing for a rematch means he was ducking?

Hagler faced Hearns and knocked him out. I don't see how that's ducking, if he already faced him and beat him.

Hagler won the middleweight championhip one year before Qawi won the light heavyweight championship.

Hagler was a natural middleweight, while Qawi was a natural light heavyweight. What would be the point in gaining all of that unnatural weight just to end up losing?

Are you claiming Riddick Bowe is telling lies in the video?
Bowe vs Lewis in the Olympics was the most bazaar contest in Olympic history.. Bowe leathered Lewis in the opening round, Lewis lands 3 punches in the 2nd round and the referee stops the fight.. Bowe walks away in disbelief... Tyrell Biggs & Henry Tillman both beat Tyson in the Olympics... Jorge Louis Gonzalez beat Bowe in the amateurs... different story in the pro ranks.

Bruce Selden was WBA champion... Lewis did not have to accept that step-a-side money, he could easily have said NO

i cannot recall Hagler asking Leonard for a rematch.. yet i know that Hagler turned down a career highest payday when offered a rematch by Leonard in 1990..
Thomas Hearns broke his famous right-hand in the opening round against Hagler, he shouted for a rematch right up to the day Hagler retired.

Ring Magazine, KO magazine and many other fight publications all called for Hagler to move up to Light-Heavy and fight 5ft 6ins Dwight Braxton in a big money fight in the early 80s Hagler wanted none of it... Roy Jones, Toney, Hopkins, Calzaghe, etc etc all middleweights easily moved up threw the weights but Hagler never fancied his chances against Braxton

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9F01E2DC153EE033A25750C0A9649D946496D6CF

The fight ended up not happening because of money demands from both parties. However it must be said that Fulton would have settled for a guarantee of less than 10,000$ while Willard demanded atleast 25,000$. In the end there was not enough money in the fight to meet those demands.

Fulton then wanted to fight Frank Moran in an "elimination" title fight to make himself more marketable but Willard fought Moran instead.

During this time Fulton went unbeaten outside of two dubious DQ losses for 4 years, including wins over Sam Langford, Gunboat Smith, Carl Morris, Charley Weinert, Frank Moran while Willard only fought Moran.

Later Willard turned down another offer to fight Fulton.

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/chicagotribune/access/382096961.html?dids=382096961:382096961&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Jul+08%2C+1916&author=&pub=Chicago+Tribune&desc=HEAVY+CONTEST+DECLARED+OFF%3B+JESS+REFUSES&pqatl=google

Finally even the newspapers ended up criticizing and ridiculing Willard:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=KfwgAAAAIBAJ&sjid=mXUFAAAAIBAJ&dq=fred%20fulton%20jess%20willard&pg=4168%2C5730531

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=XB4bAAAAIBAJ&sjid=bkkEAAAAIBAJ&dq=fred%20fulton%20jess%20willard&pg=3380%2C880616

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=s7MxAAAAIBAJ&sjid=GeQFAAAAIBAJ&dq=jess%20willard%20morris&pg=1041%2C5477865

There were even rumours that he had retired from boxing altogether:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=SCotAAAAIBAJ&sjid=9KQEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3430,222990&dq=fred+fulton+jess+willard&hl=en

Willard ended up avoiding Fulton long enough so that Fulton was finally beaten by an up and coming Jack Dempsey. Willard then gave Dempsey a shot and was destroyed. That was his second title defense in over 4 years.

Ducks by Roy Jones Jr.:

Michalszewski
Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra

Lennox Lewis:

Riddick Bowe (93) & (95)
John Ruiz
Chris Byrd
Mike Tyson (96)
---------------

didn't bowe duck lewis at least at 1992-1993 ?
he fought an unimpressing opposition (for a lineal champion) at that time between holyfiled-bowe1 and holyfield-bowe2.
at '95 it doesn't seem like anyone ducked anyone as bowe prepared for bowe-holyfield 3 , and what did lewis had at that time ? his loss to mccall ? an easily earned shot for the WBC title ? a justified wish to fight mccall again ?



Marvin Hagler

Ray Leonard (90)
Thomas Hearns
Dwight Braxton
--------------------


at 1990 hagler was retired for 3 years already and 36 years old.
some may say it is old and shot (not me , at least regarding the 'old')
also hagler did not have a title at that year , it only seems as if leonard ducked hagler (for a rematch) that year.
regarding hearns i think he disposed of hearns convincingly enough in their fight and hearns' (third) stoppage loss to barkley did not add too much for his credibility / right to rematch hagler.
regarding braxton , there were 15lbs between them.
which are also almost 10% , this is critical in a sport like this.
the 168 division is not for vain. it is very much needed .
and it is not like as if qawi was a former middleweight himself , to the contrary , he proved he was a massive lightheavyweight by moving up to the cruiserweight division. and then even to the heavyweight division , weighing a whooping 230 against foreman. this mere weight could have caused hagler diabetes , it could kill him.
so why should he have fought braxton ? he had plenty of contenders at his own division. he ate them one after the other.






Joe Calzaghe

Glen Johnson - 3 times
Bernard Hopkins
Roy Jones
Dariusz Michelzchevski
-------------------

regarding jones , was there ever a thought about a fight between them at their joint prime ? after all , jones was at 175 by the time calzaghe was still green at 168.

and regarding michalczewski , dariusz was a massive 175 who had his flirts with the 190's , so like with hagler-qawi , why match the two ?
definitely not a duck.
you could also say that michalczewski and qawi ducked them because they refused to go down in weight.


Ricky Hatton

Junior Witter
Otkal Urkal
Miguel Cotto
Vivian Harris
---------------

Floyd Mayweather Jr.

Antonio Margarito
Miguel Cotto
------------------

regarding hatton , i disagree with all you wrote , maybe except cotto.
and this is a mere 'maybe'.

Are you claiming Riddick Bowe is telling lies in the video?
Bowe vs Lewis in the Olympics was the most bazaar contest in Olympic history.. Bowe leathered Lewis in the opening round, Lewis lands 3 punches in the 2nd round and the referee stops the fight.. Bowe walks away in disbelief... Tyrell Biggs & Henry Tillman both beat Tyson in the Olympics... Jorge Louis Gonzalez beat Bowe in the amateurs... different story in the pro ranks.

Bruce Selden was WBA champion... Lewis did not have to accept that step-a-side money, he could easily have said NO

i cannot recall Hagler asking Leonard for a rematch.. yet i know that Hagler turned down a career highest payday when offered a rematch by Leonard in 1990..
Thomas Hearns broke his famous right-hand in the opening round against Hagler, he shouted for a rematch right up to the day Hagler retired.

Ring Magazine, KO magazine and many other fight publications all called for Hagler to move up to Light-Heavy and fight 5ft 6ins Dwight Braxton in a big money fight in the early 80s Hagler wanted none of it... Roy Jones, Toney, Hopkins, Calzaghe, etc etc all middleweights easily moved up threw the weights but Hagler never fancied his chances against Braxton
Is Bowe suddenly the professor of truth, because he says so?

In amateur fights, you get hit solid enough, you have to take a count. The way the fight was going, Lewis would've beaten Bowe anyways.

If the pro ranks would've been different, then Bowe wouldn't have ducked Lewis.

Tyson didn't have to fight Seldon. He had a mandatory challenge against Lewis but instead chose to fight another titlist who was nowhere near as good as Lewis.

Hagler retired in 1989. So in 1990.. he was retired. He chased for a rematch for two years but couldn't get it. He got fed up and retired. Now that he retired, Leonard wanted to fight?

With all due respect to Hearns, it's not Hagler's fault that he broke his right hand. The point is that Hagler gave Hearns a championship title shot and Hagler came out on top. If it was a close decision or a very controversial fight, then a rematch should've been made. But Hearns lost by knockout and that's that.

Hopkins reigned as a middleweight champion for around 10 years, until he lost it. Calzaghe reigned as a super middleweight champion for around 10 years, as well. If you do the math, that's a lot longer than when people were "demanding" for Hagler to move up and face Qawi.

Not too sure about Jones but I know that Toney was getting too big for middleweight. He was even getting too big for super middleweight.

Oscar de la hoya avoided Winky Wright

Joe Louis avoided Maxi Rosenbloom

Chris Eubank and Nigel benn both avoided Herol Graham

Kosta Tszyu avoided Vince Philips rematch

Floyd Mayweather avoided Antonio Margarito

Rocky Graziano avoided Jake la motta

Joe Calzaghe avoided Glen Johnson

George Foreman avoided Michael Moorer rematch

Johnny Nelson avoided Carl Thompson rematch

Bernard Hopkins is avoiding Chad Dawson right now!

Is Bowe suddenly the professor of truth, because he says so?

In amateur fights, you get hit solid enough, you have to take a count. The way the fight was going, Lewis would've beaten Bowe anyways.

If the pro ranks would've been different, then Bowe wouldn't have ducked Lewis.

Tyson didn't have to fight Seldon. He had a mandatory challenge against Lewis but instead chose to fight another titlist who was nowhere near as good as Lewis.

Hagler retired in 1989. So in 1990.. he was retired. He chased for a rematch for two years but couldn't get it. He got fed up and retired. Now that he retired, Leonard wanted to fight?

With all due respect to Hearns, it's not Hagler's fault that he broke his right hand. The point is that Hagler gave Hearns a championship title shot and Hagler came out on top. If it was a close decision or a very controversial fight, then a rematch should've been made. But Hearns lost by knockout and that's that.

Hopkins reigned as a middleweight champion for around 10 years, until he lost it. Calzaghe reigned as a super middleweight champion for around 10 years, as well. If you do the math, that's a lot longer than when people were "demanding" for Hagler to move up and face Qawi.

Not too sure about Jones but I know that Toney was getting too big for middleweight. He was even getting too big for super middleweight.

i believe Bowe.. you believe Lewis.. Lewis fans say Bowe ducked him, but they refuse to accept it when its pointed out that Lewis ducked both John Ruiz & Chris Byrd by ditching title belts.... the Olympic final fight, Bowe was well in front unto Lewis landed those 3 punches and the fight was prematurely stopped by the French/Canadian referee.

Tyson fought Seldon in his quest to "UNIFY" the heavyweight titles.. Lewis was coming back after being poleaxed in less than 2rds by Tysons sparring partner Oliver McCall... Lewis was thought of as no more than a 1st round KO for Mike Tyson... Lewis obviously never wanted to fight Tyson in 96 with a purse of over $10 million and a gauranteed title shot, or he would never accepted that step-a-side money... the reason he accepted it was because he never fancied the job against that version of Mike Tyson...

Ducks by Roy Jones Jr.:

Michalszewski
Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra

Bat... i dont go along with that list mate

i believe Bowe.. you believe Lewis.. Lewis fans say Bowe ducked him, but they refuse to accept it when its pointed out that Lewis ducked both John Ruiz & Chris Byrd by ditching title belts.... the Olympic final fight, Bowe was well in front unto Lewis landed those 3 punches and the fight was prematurely stopped by the French/Canadian referee.

Tyson fought Seldon in his quest to "UNIFY" the heavyweight titles.. Lewis was coming back after being poleaxed in less than 2rds by Tysons sparring partner Oliver McCall... Lewis was thought of as no more than a 1st round KO for Mike Tyson... Lewis obviously never wanted to fight Tyson in 96 with a purse of over $10 million and a gauranteed title shot, or he would never accepted that step-a-side money... the reason he accepted it was because he never fancied the job against that version of Mike Tyson...
Quack! Quack! Quack!

Everyone abandon thread!!... Lewis's name's been mentioned, and sonnyboy's all knarled up, and on the prowl.. Not worth discussing imo..

regarding hatton , i disagree with all you wrote , maybe except cotto.
and this is a mere 'maybe'.



That's because you're ignorant.Witter and Hatton over the last decade were the two best junior welterweights in britain.Now,the logical thing to do would be to match the pair up and Witter called Hatton out at every opportunity.Even when Hatton ducked Wiiter at the domestic scene,Witter kept chasing him and won a world title and still Hatton wanted nothing to do with him.

i believe Bowe.. you believe Lewis.. Lewis fans say Bowe ducked him, but they refuse to accept it when its pointed out that Lewis ducked both John Ruiz & Chris Byrd by ditching title belts.... the Olympic final fight, Bowe was well in front unto Lewis landed those 3 punches and the fight was prematurely stopped by the French/Canadian referee.

Tyson fought Seldon in his quest to "UNIFY" the heavyweight titles.. Lewis was coming back after being poleaxed in less than 2rds by Tysons sparring partner Oliver McCall... Lewis was thought of as no more than a 1st round KO for Mike Tyson... Lewis obviously never wanted to fight Tyson in 96 with a purse of over $10 million and a gauranteed title shot, or he would never accepted that step-a-side money... the reason he accepted it was because he never fancied the job against that version of Mike Tyson...
We're not talking about Ruiz or Byrd. Don't act like that's a valid argument as to why Lewis was the guilty one in this situation. It doesn't work like that.

The way the fight was going, Lewis was gonna take it anyways. Bowe had to take two standing counts. If Bowe was really the better man, he wouldn't have threw his belt in the garbage can when he was supposed to supposed fight.

A fight with Lewis was a much more important fight than Seldon, at the time. Anyways who doesn't think so obviously doesn't know what they're talking about. Not only did Lewis have the better wins and better championship reign but he also was the bigger attraction.

To think Lewis didn't wanna fight Tyson is nonsense. Lewis went as far as filing a protest against Tyson for not getting his fair shot at the title.

By reading some of your other posts, you're clearly very biased towards Lewis and I don't intend on replying to your posts in this thread anymore.

Ducks by Roy Jones Jr.:

Michalszewski
Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra

Are you serious or just looking for attention?

Jones ducked Von Horn? Cordoba? Collins? Eubank?

Listen James Toney, and Bernard Hopkins, are better than anyone on that list and Jones beat them comfortably.

I can name a bunch of contenders from a all time great fighters era, who they didnt fight, does that mean they avoided them?

And by the way, Jones would of destroyed Kessler at his peak......

At his peak Jones beats all of them, and Jones even beat alot of fighters who beat fighters on that list.

Research before you post stupid comments.

Paulie.

Are you serious or just looking for attention?

Jones ducked Von Horn? Cordoba? Collins? Eubank?

Listen James Toney, and Bernard Hopkins, are better than anyone on that list and Jones beat them comfortably.

I can name a bunch of contenders from a all time great fighters era, who they didnt fight, does that mean they avoided them?

And by the way, Jones would of destroyed Kessler at his peak......

At his peak Jones beats all of them, and Jones even beat alot of fighters who beat fighters on that list.

Research before you post stupid comments.

Paulie.
No need to flame here on the historyboard noob. You can do that on NSB all day if you feel like it.

The list i posted is researched in the sense that it's a list of all the ranked supermiddleweights Roy DIDN'T fight when he was fighting there + the obvious in Michalszevski.

Jones was in essense fighting in the 168 lb division from 1993 until 1996.

Keys:

RED = Eventually fought them or fought them already
BLUE = Fought them in that year.

The year end rankings of 1992 looked like this:

1: Michael Nunn
2: Iran Barkley
3: Chris Eubank
4: Victor Cordoba
5: Nigel Benn
6: Tim Littles
7: Darrin Van Horn
8: Tony Thornton
9: Frankie Liles
10: Frank Nicotra

He fought Thornton in 1995.

1993:

1: James Toney
2: Michael Nunn
3: Chris Eubank
4: Nigel Benn
5: Tim Littles
6: Darrin Van Horn
7: Frankie Liles
8: Tony Thornton
9: Antoine Byrd
10: Vincenzo Nardiello


1994: Jones enters the list at no. 1 after beating Toney.

1: Roy Jones Jr.
2: Nigel Benn
3: Chris Eubank
4: Frankie Liles
5: Vinny Pazienza
6: Tim Littles
7: Michael Nunn
8: Ray Close
9: Graciano Rocchigiani
10: Antoine Byrd


1995:

1: Roy Jones Jr.
2: Nigel Benn
3: Steve Collins
4: Frankie Liles
5: Tim Littles
6: Vinny Pazienza
7: Bryant Brannon
8: Henry Wharton
9: Michael Nunn
10: Ray Close


1996:

1: Roy Jones Jr.
2: Frankie Liles
3: Steve Collins
4: Vinny Pazienza
5: Robin Reid
6: Henry Wharton
7: Michael Nunn
8: Vincenzo Nardiello
9: Joseph Kiwanuka
10: Thulani Malinga

At the end of 1996 Jones had moved up.

So Jones work after 4 years at 168 lb consist of an excellent win over Toney and not much else:

Toney
Thornton
Pazienza (LOL)
Byrd
Brannon

Jones never fought a top 3 opponent after Toney. He had 6 fights at 168 after beating him. Of those fights he beat an unranked Thornton, a suspected juiced lightweight in Pazienza, a past it Byrd, a never was in Sosa, a young non-threat in Lucas and a veteran of 16 fights in Brannon.


So the deserving fighters Jones didn't fight (or ducked .....) is these guys:

Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra


Let's face it. A Nunn or a Benn or a Eubank or a Liles or even a Collins would have been real nice.

No need to flame here on the historyboard noob. You can do that on NSB all day if you feel like it.

The list i posted is researched in the sense that it's a list of all the ranked supermiddleweights Roy DIDN'T fight when he was fighting there + the obvious in Michalszevski.

Jones was in essense fighting in the 168 lb division from 1993 until 1996.

Keys:

RED = Eventually fought them or fought them already
BLUE = Fought them in that year.

The year end rankings of 1992 looked like this:

1: Michael Nunn
2: Iran Barkley
3: Chris Eubank
4: Victor Cordoba
5: Nigel Benn
6: Tim Littles
7: Darrin Van Horn
8: Tony Thornton
9: Frankie Liles
10: Frank Nicotra

He fought Thornton in 1995.

1993:

1: James Toney
2: Michael Nunn
3: Chris Eubank
4: Nigel Benn
5: Tim Littles
6: Darrin Van Horn
7: Frankie Liles
8: Tony Thornton
9: Antoine Byrd
10: Vincenzo Nardiello


1994: Jones enters the list at no. 1 after beating Toney.

1: Roy Jones Jr.
2: Nigel Benn
3: Chris Eubank
4: Frankie Liles
5: Vinny Pazienza
6: Tim Littles
7: Michael Nunn
8: Ray Close
9: Graciano Rocchigiani
10: Antoine Byrd


1995:

1: Roy Jones Jr.
2: Nigel Benn
3: Steve Collins
4: Frankie Liles
5: Tim Littles
6: Vinny Pazienza
7: Bryant Brannon
8: Henry Wharton
9: Michael Nunn
10: Ray Close


1996:

1: Roy Jones Jr.
2: Frankie Liles
3: Steve Collins
4: Vinny Pazienza
5: Robin Reid
6: Henry Wharton
7: Michael Nunn
8: Vincenzo Nardiello
9: Joseph Kiwanuka
10: Thulani Malinga

At the end of 1996 Jones had moved up.

So Jones work after 4 years at 168 lb consist of an excellent win over Toney and not much else:

Toney
Thornton
Pazienza (LOL)
Byrd
Brannon

Jones never fought a top 3 opponent after Toney. He had 6 fights at 168 after beating him. Of those fights he beat an unranked Thornton, a suspected juiced lightweight in Pazienza, a past it Byrd, a never was in Sosa, a young non-threat in Lucas and a veteran of 16 fights in Brannon.


So the deserving fighters Jones didn't fight (or ducked .....) is these guys:

Nunn
Benn
Eubank
Collins
Barkley
Cordoba
Littles
Van Horn
Liles
Nardiello
Close
Rocchigianni
Nicotra


Let's face it. A Nunn or a Benn or a Eubank or a Liles or even a Collins would have been real nice.

But why is Jones to blame for all them fights not happening?

Big fight's aren't that easy to make. And do you honestly belive Jones would avoid the likes of Steve Collins and Van Horn, but yet fight the unbeaten 44-0 James Toney?

Be Serious..

Paulie

But why is Jones to blame for all them fights not happening?

Big fight's aren't that easy to make. And do you honestly belive Jones would avoid the likes of Steve Collins and Van Horn, but yet fight the unbeaten 44-0 James Toney?

Be Serious..

Paulie
He fought Vinny ****ing Pazienza instead of any of those guys for crying out loud! It's not a question of wouldas or couldas. The fact is that his resumé is severely lacking.

He fought Vinny ****ing Pazienza instead of any of those guys for crying out loud! It's not a question of wouldas or couldas. The fact is that his resumé is severely lacking.

Right you didnt answer my question. Why would Jones fight the unbeaten 44-0 James Toney, but yet avoid Steve Collins and Van Horn?

Give me a break......

Why does Jones automatically get the blame for not fighting other fighters?

How do you know that the likes of Collins, Euabank were the ones that were hard to work with?

You know why, because you have a personal dislike towards Jones, so it's easy for you to blame it on him.

And by the way, from what I've seen of you. You're a attention seeker, especailly that avater.

Paulie.

Right you didnt answer my question. Why would Jones fight the unbeaten 44-0 James Toney, but yet avoid Steve Collins and Van Horn?

Give me a break......

Why does Jones automatically get the blame for not fighting other fighters?

How do you know that the likes of Collins, Euabank were the ones that were hard to work with?

You know why, because you have a personal dislike towards Jones, so it's easy for you to blame it on him.

And by the way, from what I've seen of you. You're a attention seeker, especailly that avater.

Paulie.
All those fighters he didn't fight speaks volumes doesn't it? Look at all those names.

FYI I think Jones was THE exceptionnel talent of last generation. He just failed to test his talent against the best on a consistent basis.

You call me an attention seeker??? I got a suggestion for you: Get out of this section. You'll do much better on NSB.

:thinking: And what's wrong with my avatar of the toughest fighter the world has ever seen?

in this thread give your list of fighters and their avoided opponents.
one can also give excuses and reasons why the fights did not happen.
i start , and may edit my list in the future :
floyd mayweather :
miguel cotto
paul williams
antonio margaritto


shane mosley :
floyd mayweather
paul williams

manny pacquiao :
shane mosley

juan manuel marquez :
naseem hamed (marquez was hamed's mandatory but chose not to get his shot)

roy jones :
steve collins
frankie liles
gerald mcclellan
julian jackson


bernard hopkins :
chad dawson
reggie johnson
julian jackson
mike mccallum

george foreman :
lennox lewis

riddick bowe :
lennox lewis

ray leonard :
marvin hagler (rematch)

michael spinks :
tony tucker



did one of the below duck anyone :
vitali klitschko , lennox lewis , wladimir klitschko , nikolay valuev
mike tyson , evander holyfield , oliver mccall , david tua ,
sultan ibragimov , ruslan chagaev , chris byrd
john ruiz , michael moorer , hassim rahman

george foreman was nearly 50 years old ffs, he had no business fighting lennox.

if u say foreman with his 45 ducked lennox, what did lennox do then?
i can also say 38 years old lennox never gave vitaly a rematch, if what george did was a duck at 45...
stop talking bs pls :D

All those fighters he didn't fight speaks volumes doesn't it? Look at all those names.

FYI I think Jones was THE exceptionnel talent of last generation. He just failed to test his talent against the best on a consistent basis.

You call me an attention seeker??? I got a suggestion for you: Get out of this section. You'll do much better on NSB.

:thinking: And what's wrong with my avatar of the toughest fighter the world has ever seen?

Jones's resume is a strong one. But your making out like, he ducked fights with the likes of Collins, Van Horn etc, just because he didnt fight them.

He fought James Toney who >>>>>>everyone on that list you named.

He battered Julio Cesar Gonzalez who went over to Germany to beat Dariusz Michalczewski.

And I could go on. Big wow, he fought a few fighters beneath him. So did Joe Louis, Muhhamad Ali, Roberto Duran etc.

Do you honestly think Jones would avoid fighting the likes of Collins, Van Horn, Barkley, Eubank? But yet he fights the likes of Toney, Hopkins, Griffin, Ruiz?

And it's your OPINION that Nelson is the toughest fighter of all time. Plenty of other fighters have a case for that tag.

Paulie

Jones's resume is a strong one. But your making out like, he ducked fights with the likes of Collins, Van Horn etc, just because he didnt fight them.

He fought James Toney who >>>>>>everyone on that list you named.

He battered Julio Cesar Gonzalez who went over to Germany to beat Dariusz Michalczewski.

And I could go on. Big wow, he fought a few fighters beneath him. So did Joe Louis, Muhhamad Ali, Roberto Duran etc.

Do you honestly think Jones would avoid fighting the likes of Collins, Van Horn, Barkley, Eubank? But yet he fights the likes of Toney, Hopkins, Griffin, Ruiz?

And it's your OPINION that Nelson is the toughest fighter of all time. Plenty of other fighters have a case for that tag.

Paulie
Funny that you critisize me for having the OPINION that Nelson was the toughest of them all while you are of the OPINION that Jones has a strong resumé.

I am arguing that Jones spent 4 years at 168 and only holds ONE A-class win. On the grounds of that I am of the OPINION that Jones' resumé at 168 is severely lacking. If you think otherwise then please let us all know.

Funny that you critisize me for having the OPINION that Nelson was the toughest of them all while you are of the OPINION that Jones has a strong resumé.

I am arguing that Jones spent 4 years at 168 and only holds ONE A-class win. On the grounds of that I am of the OPINION that Jones' resumé at 168 is severely lacking. If you think otherwise then please let us all know.

Bat... you are right & wrong in a way.. Jones was so exceptionally tallented that those opponents you listed was never interested in taking 20% of the purse to fight Roy Jones.. Roy wanted almost all the cash and all the advantages once he won the title from James Toney.. you must agree that none of those fighters ever pushed for a fight with Jones and if they had they was very unlikely to have beaten him.

Bat... you are right & wrong in a way.. Jones was so exceptionally tallented that those opponents you listed was never interested in taking 20% of the purse to fight Roy Jones.. Roy wanted almost all the cash and all the advantages once he won the title from James Toney.. you must agree that none of those fighters ever pushed for a fight with Jones and if they had they was very unlikely to have beaten him.
All I say is that wouldas, couldas and shouldas doesn't count. All those fantasy wins Jones might have count for nought.

He didn't fight the guys I mentioned wheter it being because Jones offered an unfair cut or something else, the facts remain that Jones didn't. Hence his resumé is less than stellar since fantasyfights, wouldas and couldas doesn't count when everything is said and done.

All I say is that wouldas, couldas and shouldas doesn't count. All those fantasy wins Jones might have count for nought.

He didn't fight the guys I mentioned wheter it being because Jones offered an unfair cut or something else, the facts remain that Jones didn't. Hence his resumé is less than stellar since fantasyfights, wouldas and couldas doesn't count when everything is said and done.
I think you've displayed your side of the argument superbly..
It's true, Jones acted like a pop star.. He had Don King in his pocket, making greedy one-sided demands to make a mockery of the whole mandatory system.. The lists you submitted earlier highlights the proof of this perfectly.. In fact, with the exception of the 'money' fight against Calzaghe and the battering of Clinton Woods, Jones never fought any Europeans whatsoever!.. Most of his defenses being in the US against fellow American's and Canadians, most of whom were either washed up or fairly limited to say the least..

No, i'm with you on this one Bat..
Top marks to Paulie too, who's put his point across very well, but Jones is the loser in this debate i'm afraid..

Although, i believe Jones would have destroyed the majority of the guys he priced out of it, two names come to mind when you think of explosiveness.. Nigel Benn and Gerald McClellan.. Both of these guys had all the ingredients needed to upset Jones, and there is no way he avoided them for financial reasons either.. This is echoed by the fact, that he never once fought anyone quite like them.. Well with the exception of Danny Green that is.. Even though Roy's 41 & Green's a poor-mans version of the other 2, it just goes to show you what could'a happened.. Julian Jackson was also hovering about back then, but Roy wanted none of him either..
Sorry, but i have to say that RJJ's resume below 175 does appear to be a triffle padded..

I think you've displayed your side of the argument superbly..
It's true, Jones acted like a pop star.. He had Don King in his pocket, making greedy one-sided demands to make a mockery of the whole mandatory system.. The lists you submitted earlier highlights the proof of this perfectly.. In fact, with the exception of the 'money' fight against Calzaghe and the battering of Clinton Woods, Jones never fought any Europeans whatsoever!.. Most of his defenses being in the US against fellow American's and Canadians, most of whom were either washed up or fairly limited to say the least..

No, i'm with you on this one Bat..
Top marks to Paulie too, who's put his point across very well, but Jones is the loser in this debate i'm afraid..

Although, i believe Jones would have destroyed the majority of the guys he priced out of it, two names come to mind when you think of explosiveness.. Nigel Benn and Gerald McClellan.. Both of these guys had all the ingredients needed to upset Jones, and there is no way he avoided them for financial reasons either.. This is echoed by the fact, that he never once fought anyone quite like them.. Well with the exception of Danny Green that is.. Even though Roy's 41 & Green's a poor-mans version of the other 2, it just goes to show you what could'a happened.. Julian Jackson was also hovering about back then, but Roy wanted none of him either..
Sorry, but i have to say that RJJ's resume below 175 does appear to be a triffle padded..

Nigel Benn failed whenever he fought a guy who could box.. Malinga beat him, Michael Watson knocked fuk out of him.. IMO Roy Jones wudda destroyed him..

Nigel Benn failed whenever he fought a guy who could box.. Malinga beat him, Michael Watson knocked fuk out of him.. IMO Roy Jones wudda destroyed him..
We don't know that because styles make fights, and Jones never faced anyone remotely similar imo.. 8 times out of 10, you may well be right, but the Benn who jumped all over Barkley could well have upset Jones, but that's just an opinion.. The point i was making, is below 175, his resume is very questionable..

We don't know that because styles make fights, and Jones never faced anyone remotely similar imo.. 8 times out of 10, you may well be right, but the Benn who jumped all over Barkley could well have upset Jones, but that's just an opinion.. The point i was making, is below 175, his resume is very questionable..

Nigel Benn was a very exciting warrior but i just cannot see him beat Roy Jones... Jones was not Iran Barkley.. at 160lbs and from 1992 to 96 Jones was virtually impossible to hit on the chin, he had incredible athletic ability and springs in his legs, those legs aloud him to move in and out as he wanted and to avoid punches to the chin with ease.. any fighter has a chance after 2002 but before then its difficult to make a case for more than 2 or 3 ATGs to have beaten him.

Nigel Benn was a very exciting warrior but i just cannot see him beat Roy Jones... Jones was not Iran Barkley.. at 160lbs and from 1992 to 96 Jones was virtually impossible to hit on the chin, he had incredible athletic ability and springs in his legs, those legs aloud him to move in and out as he wanted and to avoid punches to the chin with ease.. any fighter has a chance after 2002 but before then its difficult to make a case for more than 2 or 3 ATGs to have beaten him.
^^^^And this post is based on Jones beating the likes of the pazman i presume?

^^^^And this post is based on Jones beating the likes of the pazman i presume?
No... its based on Roy Jones performances against guys at 160lbs like Hopkins, Pazienza, Tate, Vaca, Castro, Glen Thomas, Glen Wolfe, Malinga.. 6 world champions, one undefeated contender and another contender with only one defeat...between these fighters they have won 10 world titles

No... its based on Roy Jones performances against guys at 160lbs like Hopkins, Pazienza, Tate, Vaca, Castro, Glen Thomas, Glen Wolfe, Malinga.. 6 world champions, one undefeated contender and another contender with only one defeat...between these fighters they have won 10 world titles
Which of these, apart from Hopkins, was great MW's?

Nigel Benn failed whenever he fought a guy who could box.. Malinga beat him, Michael Watson knocked fuk out of him.. IMO Roy Jones wudda destroyed him..
Thats not a fiar analysis, he improved after his fight with Watson and he was completely shot against Malinga.

Bat... you are right & wrong in a way.. Jones was so exceptionally tallented that those opponents you listed was never interested in taking 20% of the purse to fight Roy Jones.. Roy wanted almost all the cash and all the advantages once he won the title from James Toney.. you must agree that none of those fighters ever pushed for a fight with Jones and if they had they was very unlikely to have beaten him.
Alot of those fighters pushed for fights with Jones.
How do you know about the 80/20% split

bernard hopkins :
reggie johnson
julian jackson
mike mccallum



Whats the story with Bhop and the guys in this list?

I think you've displayed your side of the argument superbly..
It's true, Jones acted like a pop star.. He had Don King in his pocket, making greedy one-sided demands to make a mockery of the whole mandatory system.. The lists you submitted earlier highlights the proof of this perfectly.. In fact, with the exception of the 'money' fight against Calzaghe and the battering of Clinton Woods, Jones never fought any Europeans whatsoever!.. Most of his defenses being in the US against fellow American's and Canadians, most of whom were either washed up or fairly limited to say the least..

No, i'm with you on this one Bat..
Top marks to Paulie too, who's put his point across very well, but Jones is the loser in this debate i'm afraid..

Although, i believe Jones would have destroyed the majority of the guys he priced out of it, two names come to mind when you think of explosiveness.. Nigel Benn and Gerald McClellan.. Both of these guys had all the ingredients needed to upset Jones, and there is no way he avoided them for financial reasons either.. This is echoed by the fact, that he never once fought anyone quite like them.. Well with the exception of Danny Green that is.. Even though Roy's 41 & Green's a poor-mans version of the other 2, it just goes to show you what could'a happened.. Julian Jackson was also hovering about back then, but Roy wanted none of him either..
Sorry, but i have to say that RJJ's resume below 175 does appear to be a triffle padded..
padded indeed.
you can also add Eubanks who may have caused him problems as well
and also remember : the perpetual water in corners in Roy Jones fights ,
fighting Toney only when it was obvious toney could no longer stay at 168 and never fighting him before or after it , fighting much older smaller fighters as was the cases with : Pazienza , McCallum , Vaca ,
he wanted none of jackson but he did indeed seek a fight with Terry Norris .

Whats the story with Bhop and the guys in this list?

he did not fight them despite being some of the best contenders / champions at the time of his reign. and they were even americans as well , no need to travel overseas , it's not as if i accused him of ducking ottke , erdei , etc.

he did not fight them despite being some of the best contenders / champions at the time of his reign. and they were even americans as well , no need to travel overseas , it's not as if i accused him of ducking ottke , erdei , etc.
When Hopkins got his hands on a belt, McClellan and McCallum had already moved up. Jacksons career was coming to an end, I dont know much about Reggie Johnson so I cant comment.

padded indeed.
you can also add Eubanks who may have caused him problems as well
and also remember : the perpetual water in corners in Roy Jones fights ,
fighting Toney only when it was obvious toney could no longer stay at 168 and never fighting him before or after it , fighting much older smaller fighters as was the cases with : Pazienza , McCallum , Vaca ,
he wanted none of jackson but he did indeed seek a fight with Terry Norris .
Eubank wasnt interested in unifying the belts, Im not sure what happened with the Benn fight, all I know is that Benn wanted that fight, same with Collins. As for Toney he did throw away a lot of his years after the Jones fight so I dont know when that could of been viable again. It would of helped if he stayed in the LHW divison. Not sure what happened with a Liles fight I heard it was due to him being signed with King.

Eubank wasnt interested in unifying the belts, Im not sure what happened with the Benn fight, all I know is that Benn wanted that fight, same with Collins. As for Toney he did throw away a lot of his years after the Jones fight so I dont know when that could of been viable again. It would of helped if he stayed in the LHW divison. Not sure what happened with a Liles fight I heard it was due to him being signed with King.

PP , is that you ?

PP , is that you ?
Nah, sorry dude you got me confused with someone else, lol

Nah, sorry dude you got me confused with someone else, lol
so no breast feeding in your avatar ?

so no breast feeding in your avatar ?
Im a member of that other forum as well which is where I saw pp's cool avatar pic, slightly edited as you can see.

Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page in '83
Michael Spinks ducked Tony Tucker in '87 to take a more meaningful fight in Gerry Cooney.
James Toney was scared to fight Julian Jackson in '92, instead of unifying the belts, he moved up to 168 to faced Iran Barkley.

James Toney was scared to fight Julian Jackson in '92, instead of unifying the belts, he moved up to 168 to faced Iran Barkley.
I find this hard to believe. Where did you hear that from?

Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page in '83
Michael Spinks ducked Tony Tucker in '87 to take a more meaningful fight in Gerry Cooney.
James Toney was scared to fight Julian Jackson in '92, instead of unifying the belts, he moved up to 168 to faced Iran Barkley.

that was because he could not make 160 anymore , as was proven in his fights against tiberi , reggie johnson , etc.
and furthermore proven when later he could not even make 168 (the Roy Jones fight) and yet even later not even 175 (Thadzi fight).
Toney is one of the good examples of balooning in weight .

Salvador Sanchez ducked Eusebio Pedroza(somewhat).

I find this hard to believe. Where did you hear that from?

Toney used to say he didnt fought Jackson because of Don King, he called out Jackson in one of his victories, and the Hawk was quote as responding that "all we need is a contract, if he has the guts to fight me."

Although I agree there's no problem for Toney moving up because he could no longer really make the 160 pound limit. Toney-Jackson was one of those interesting fights at the middleweight during the 90s.

Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page in '83
Michael Spinks ducked Tony Tucker in '87 to take a more meaningful fight in Gerry Cooney.
James Toney was scared to fight Julian Jackson in '92, instead of unifying the belts, he moved up to 168 to faced Iran Barkley.

I think Holmes ducked Michael Dokes and Gerrie Coetzee as well.

I think Holmes ducked Michael Dokes and Gerrie Coetzee as well.
And Pinklon Thomas..
Sonny Liston ducked Mac Foster too..

I am not a fan of this topic, yes throughout history there have been fighters thst didn't want other fighters. Now days it is a regular thing that even certain superstars do.

But many "ducks" that are listed are not "ducks". All Fights that just did not happen are not ducks!
Often managers and promoters are often the duckers protecting their investment. But the names thrown around gets crazy and many times fights were not feasable or able to be made.

And Pinklon Thomas..
Sonny Liston ducked Mac Foster too..

are you serious... Liston ducked no man, Mac Foster had not even made his pro debut when Liston was on the verge of retirement...what is wrong today malone, is your google broke down so your having to use your knowledge of the sport which is virtually nil

Sonny Liston ducked Mac Foster too..



No he didn't,Malone.That was "smokey" Joe frazier who ducked Mac foster.One of the many punchers frazier spent his entire career avoiding.

are you serious... Liston ducked no man, Mac Foster had not even made his pro debut when Liston was on the verge of retirement...what is wrong today malone, is your google broke down so your having to use your knowledge of the sport which is virtually nil
Firstly, congratulations on spoiling the peace once again.. My boxing knowledge isn't quite on the level of the industrial unit that harbors your 'fight collection'
But you should know by now that it spoils your dinner every time you tangle with me, so i'll give you a few facts to start off your indigestion..

Why you have to show yourself up, by coming out with the above untruth's is beyond me.. Sonny Liston didn't retire until 1970, and in 1968, Foster was on a run of 20 straight wins including KO's over Thad Spencer and Cleveland Williams.. Both fighters were from Liston's era, and Foster wanted to add Liston's name to that list, so he shouted for the fight to happen but Liston at this time, made himself unavailable and this was at least a year prior to his fight with Leotis Martin, which displays 2 gross exaggerations on your behalf..
Ok, at that stage of his career you can say, Liston had nothing to prove and could fight whoever he wants; so in that respect it wasn't a 'duck', more of a 'prefer not to,' shall we say?

When Mac couldn't get to Liston, Williams was brought in for a second time, and was KO'd once again..
As for Liston being on 'the verge of retirement,' he was having a bloody field-day, handily winning 7 in a row and a sturdy 'gatekeeper' for the division in 1968..
You certainly can't blame Foster for wanting him on his resume, can you?

Firstly, congratulations on spoiling the peace once again.. My boxing knowledge isn't quite on the level of the industrial unit that harbors your 'fight collection'
But you should know by now that it spoils your dinner every time you tangle with me, so i'll give you a few facts to start off your indigestion..

Why you have to show yourself up, by coming out with the above untruth's is beyond me.. Sonny Liston didn't retire until 1970, and in 1968, Foster was on a run of 20 straight wins including KO's over Thad Spencer and Cleveland Williams.. Both fighters were from Liston's era, and Foster wanted to add Liston's name to that list, so he shouted for the fight to happen but Liston at this time, made himself unavailable and this was at least a year prior to his fight with Leotis Martin, which displays 2 gross exaggerations on your behalf..
Ok, at that stage of his career you can say, Liston had nothing to prove and could fight whoever he wants; so in that respect it wasn't a 'duck', more of a 'prefer not to,' shall we say?

When Mac couldn't get to Liston, Williams was brought in for a second time, and was KO'd once again..
As for Liston being on 'the verge of retirement,' he was having a bloody field-day, handily winning 7 in a row and a sturdy 'gatekeeper' for the division in 1968..
You certainly can't blame Foster for wanting him on his resume, can you?

where is the evidence of your claiming?... please produce a link

Mac Foster beat an old "Shot" Cleveland Williams twice in 1969 when Williams was nearly 37yrs old and was fighting with a couple of bullets lodged in his body.. He then got a fight with Jerry Quarry and was destroyed in 6rds.. i can never recall Sonny Liston being mooted as an opponent for Foster and i cannot accept that Liston would "DUCK" anyone.. its also widely accepted that Liston was in his early 40s by the time Leotis Martin KOd him... Mac Foster is vastly overated on this forum as being some kind of Sonny Liston incarnated.. yet the truth about Foster is that he virtually never fought outside his beloved California and the first time he ventured away from home he got destroyed in devastating fashion... Foster was similar to Peter"hurricane" McNeeley in that he built up an undefeated record in his hometown fighting cans and lost each time he fought an opponent rated above Class C

Firstly, congratulations on spoiling the peace once again.. My boxing knowledge isn't quite on the level of the industrial unit that harbors your 'fight collection'
But you should know by now that it spoils your dinner every time you tangle with me, so i'll give you a few facts to start off your indigestion..

Why you have to show yourself up, by coming out with the above untruth's is beyond me.. Sonny Liston didn't retire until 1970, and in 1968, Foster was on a run of 20 straight wins including KO's over Thad Spencer and Cleveland Williams.. Both fighters were from Liston's era, and Foster wanted to add Liston's name to that list, so he shouted for the fight to happen but Liston at this time, made himself unavailable and this was at least a year prior to his fight with Leotis Martin, which displays 2 gross exaggerations on your behalf..
Ok, at that stage of his career you can say, Liston had nothing to prove and could fight whoever he wants; so in that respect it wasn't a 'duck', more of a 'prefer not to,' shall we say?

When Mac couldn't get to Liston, Williams was brought in for a second time, and was KO'd once again..
As for Liston being on 'the verge of retirement,' he was having a bloody field-day, handily winning 7 in a row and a sturdy 'gatekeeper' for the division in 1968..
You certainly can't blame Foster for wanting him on his resume, can you?

who is spoiling the peace?... i am queerying your allegations.. i also have no industrial unit, i use my attic :boxing:

where is the evidence of your claiming?... please produce a link

Mac Foster beat an old "Shot" Cleveland Williams twice in 1969 when Williams was nearly 37yrs old and was fighting with a couple of bullets lodged in his body.. He then got a fight with Jerry Quarry and was destroyed in 6rds.. i can never recall Sonny Liston being mooted as an opponent for Foster and i cannot accept that Liston would "DUCK" anyone.. its also widely accepted that Liston was in his early 40s by the time Leotis Martin KOd him... Mac Foster is vastly overated on this forum as being some kind of Sonny Liston incarnated.. yet the truth about Foster is that he virtually never fought outside his beloved California and the first time he ventured away from home he got destroyed in devastating fashion... Foster was similar to Peter"hurricane" McNeeley in that he built up an undefeated record in his hometown fighting cans and lost each time he fought an opponent rated above Class C
You've changed your tune.. According to your 1st post, he hadn't even made his pro debut, and i know virtually nil about boxing.. This was b4 we'd even discussed my allegations, which shows a complete lack of diplomacy and is indeed a vain attempt at spoiling the peace..
Anyway, here's a couple of links, which i've been unlucky with, because they wouldn't download on my machine, so i hope you have better luck in checking them out..


According to boxrec.com and this interview from last year: http://www.ringsidereport.com/Kurtz3292006.htm and http://www.ringsidereport.com/Kurtz3302006.htm (Mac Foster interview)

Here's the most interesting part:

Quote:
JK: Everyone has heard the rumor about the time you knocked Liston out in sparring. How accurate is that and can you tell us about it?

Let me tell you the story and I have never told this to anyone before. I was sparring with Sonny and we were going at it pretty good. I wanted to fight him hard because I knew if I could box with him and handle Sonny's power I might be able to go pretty far in this sport. Sonny knew I could punch so he fought me hard as well. Then I hit Sonny clean with a hard jab and I could tell he was hurt by it. He staggered to the ropes. I backed off, because we were only sparring, but my corner kept telling me to go after him. I always listened to the people around me so I did. Sonny still had his gloves up while he was against the ropes. Eventually, I threw a hook that caught him square on the chin and he was out. He fell to the canvas and he was asleep. I was one of the guys who helped stand him back up on his feet. When Sonny started coming to he said "I got hit with a good punch, it happens." He walked around for like fifteen minutes to gather his senses and he wanted to keep sparring. Dick Saddler (Liston's trainer) kept telling Sonny to take it easy and to not fight too hard. It wasn't the same after that. The next day I came back and Saddler, once again, kept telling Sonny to take it easy, but Sonny wanted to fight harder. Saddler insisted on taking it easy while we sparred and that wasn't what we wanted to do so we didn't spar after that.

You've changed your tune.. According to your 1st post, he hadn't even made his pro debut, and i know virtually nil about boxing.. This was b4 we'd even discussed my allegations, which shows a complete lack of diplomacy and is indeed a vain attempt at spoiling the peace..
Anyway, here's a couple of links, which i've been unlucky with, because they wouldn't download on my machine, so i hope you have better luck in checking them out..


According to boxrec.com and this interview from last year: http://www.ringsidereport.com/Kurtz3292006.htm and http://www.ringsidereport.com/Kurtz3302006.htm (Mac Foster interview)

Here's the most interesting part:

Quote:
JK: Everyone has heard the rumor about the time you knocked Liston out in sparring. How accurate is that and can you tell us about it?

Let me tell you the story and I have never told this to anyone before. I was sparring with Sonny and we were going at it pretty good. I wanted to fight him hard because I knew if I could box with him and handle Sonny's power I might be able to go pretty far in this sport. Sonny knew I could punch so he fought me hard as well. Then I hit Sonny clean with a hard jab and I could tell he was hurt by it. He staggered to the ropes. I backed off, because we were only sparring, but my corner kept telling me to go after him. I always listened to the people around me so I did. Sonny still had his gloves up while he was against the ropes. Eventually, I threw a hook that caught him square on the chin and he was out. He fell to the canvas and he was asleep. I was one of the guys who helped stand him back up on his feet. When Sonny started coming to he said "I got hit with a good punch, it happens." He walked around for like fifteen minutes to gather his senses and he wanted to keep sparring. Dick Saddler (Liston's trainer) kept telling Sonny to take it easy and to not fight too hard. It wasn't the same after that. The next day I came back and Saddler, once again, kept telling Sonny to take it easy, but Sonny wanted to fight harder. Saddler insisted on taking it easy while we sparred and that wasn't what we wanted to do so we didn't spar after that.

i said Foster had not made his pro debut when Liston was on the "VERGE" of retirement.. so get your facts right.

those links wont load up

who is JK and who is he talking too

i said Foster had not made his pro debut when Liston was on the "VERGE" of retirement.. so get your facts right.

those links wont load up

who is JK and who is he talking too
Well i wouldn't say 4 years and 16 fights was on the VERGE of retirement, but i guess that's just where you and i differ..

JK is 'someone' Kurtz, who is conducting the interview for boxrec, maybe Henry (hhascup) might know him?
The person being interviewed is 65 year old Mac Foster..

liston had nothing to proof, they didnt give him a title-fight anymore anyway, he could fight who ever he wanted.
if the rumours are right, then he was a drug addict in the late stage of his career.
stop the myth liston ducking foster, foster wouldnt make it to round 3 against prime liston.

Just ignore Malone.This guy will go to great lengths in discrediting truly great fighters.He is nothing more than a blind hater.

Firstly, congratulations on spoiling the peace once again.. My boxing knowledge isn't quite on the level of the industrial unit that harbors your 'fight collection'
But you should know by now that it spoils your dinner every time you tangle with me, so i'll give you a few facts to start off your indigestion..

Why you have to show yourself up, by coming out with the above untruth's is beyond me.. Sonny Liston didn't retire until 1970, and in 1968, Foster was on a run of 20 straight wins including KO's over Thad Spencer and Cleveland Williams.. Both fighters were from Liston's era, and Foster wanted to add Liston's name to that list, so he shouted for the fight to happen but Liston at this time, made himself unavailable and this was at least a year prior to his fight with Leotis Martin, which displays 2 gross exaggerations on your behalf..
Ok, at that stage of his career you can say, Liston had nothing to prove and could fight whoever he wants; so in that respect it wasn't a 'duck', more of a 'prefer not to,' shall we say?

When Mac couldn't get to Liston, Williams was brought in for a second time, and was KO'd once again..
As for Liston being on 'the verge of retirement,' he was having a bloody field-day, handily winning 7 in a row and a sturdy 'gatekeeper' for the division in 1968..
You certainly can't blame Foster for wanting him on his resume, can you?
Quote: T3dBundy; liston had nothing to proof, they didnt give him a title-fight anymore anyway, he could fight who ever he wanted.
if the rumours are right, then he was a drug addict in the late stage of his career.
stop the myth liston ducking foster, foster wouldnt make it to round 3 against prime liston.

I know..

So the redK gang are all in agreement , this never happened?....

I can live with that..

why holmes never fought foreman , ali when he was prime , lyle , frazier ?
looks like he was very much protected as a prospect/contender.
later his level of opposition was also low and he lost his title to a lightheavyweight , nonetheless .
even if he won one or two of his spinks encounters by a 1-2 points margin it is still a big shame and a reason to discredit him in p4p terms.
i think tyson would have always stopped him inside 12 , maybe just later than 3 if holmes had been prime.

Larry Holmes ducked Greg Page in '83
Michael Spinks ducked Tony Tucker in '87 to take a more meaningful fight in Gerry Cooney.
James Toney was scared to fight Julian Jackson in '92, instead of unifying the belts, he moved up to 168 to faced Iran Barkley.
Spinks got a good reason for it : much more money in fighting Cooney , I learned
it in one of my threads i think.
And Toney moved up in weight not because he was afraid of Jackson , it was because he was fat and could not maintain his weight as was proven so many times throughout his career even at higher weights.

Stevie Johnston ducked Shane Mosley bigtime in 99. That fight was perfectly setup and everything.

Tapia and Romero ducked Mark "2 Sharp" Johnson