View Full Version : The Greatest Latino Fighter of all time?


Chups
05-09-2005, 08:22 PM
My vote goes to Roberto Duran.




Honorable mention:

Monzon
Sal
JCC

What's your take?

Round 1
05-09-2005, 08:38 PM
Duran, JCC, Sal, Arguello, Ortiz, Olivares, DLH. Were all awesome in their prime against the top competition they faced.

IwatchBoxing
05-09-2005, 09:08 PM
I say Duran, but a few more good wins for Trinidad would make him the greatest.

Close is Oscar De La Hoya, Benitez.

tino
05-10-2005, 01:12 AM
chavez , duran can both claim it .

jabsRstiff
05-10-2005, 07:38 AM
Would a Brazilian count as a Latino (I'm sure he does) ?
If so.....Eder Jofre is the second best Latino fighter ever (behind Duran).
Chavez would be third.

Guys like Olivares, Zarate, Monzon, Trinidad, Gomez, etc......go after those three.

+= El Jefe=+
05-10-2005, 08:31 AM
I say Duran, but a few more good wins for Trinidad would make him the greatest.

Close is Oscar De La Hoya, Benitez.
you saying Trinidad is greater than
Benitez JCC and maybe even Duran???

J !
05-10-2005, 08:33 AM
I say Duran, but a few more good wins for Trinidad would make him the greatest.

Close is Oscar De La Hoya, Benitez.


oh please ****ing tito trinidad shouldnt be metioned in the same breath as the likes of Duran, Sanchez, olivaires, Chavez.


get a life. :rolleyes:

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 10:52 AM
As soon as you mention Trinidad, you Mexicans get all defensive, with "Ahh Chavez is better" than you guys try to act like hes all that and a bag of chips, well he is not, most of his biggest wins, he really LOST, and hes like 100 pounds, guess what guys, our greatest fighter is a lightweight, meaning half of boxing could beat him up, Trinidad is better cause he has never quit(Chavez, Duran), won most of his biggest fights(which is all but one)(unlike Chavez. Duran), and he does it at middleweight, if Trinidad beats Winky, Hopkins(or loses), Jeff Lacy, he would be the best, I dont think our greatest fighter should be small.

J !
05-10-2005, 11:07 AM
As soon as you mention Trinidad, you Mexicans get all defensive, with "Ahh Chavez is better" than you guys try to act like hes all that and a bag of chips, well he is not, most of his biggest wins, he really LOST, and hes like 100 pounds, guess what guys, our greatest fighter is a lightweight, meaning half of boxing could beat him up, Trinidad is better cause he has never quit(Chavez, Duran), won most of his biggest fights(which is all but one)(unlike Chavez. Duran), and he does it at middleweight, if Trinidad beats Winky, Hopkins(or loses), Jeff Lacy, he would be the best, I dont think our greatest fighter should be small.


WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT IM ENGLISH.

no way does tito stack up with any of the greats he simply hasnt achieved enough, what exactly? beating de la hoya in a disputed deicsion, then getting his ass handed to him by hopkins, hell if hopkins was mexican he wouldnt go down as the best latino of all time so what the **** you are on about i do not know.

foolish man. :rolleyes:

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 11:12 AM
WHAT ARE YOU ON ABOUT IM ENGLISH.

no way does tito stack up with any of the greats he simply hasnt acheived enough what exactly beating de la hoya in a dispuoted deicsion, then getting his ass handed to him by hopkins hgell if hopkins was mexican he wouldnt go down as the best latino of all time so what the **** you are on about i do not know.

foolish man. :rolleyes:
Duran lost at his natural weight to a Puerto Rican ! Than moved up to lose to a Puerto Rican like two more times, and to Lenard, Hearns, Hagler, so how does losing once hurt your place in history? If I'm correct, De La Hoya has moved up 5 weight classes too.

J !
05-10-2005, 12:13 PM
but the people duran fought are incomparable to titos.

one is stellar one is ordinary the only time Tito fought anyone of the calbire of the guys Duran lost to he got beat up.

look mate its obvious you have your molars dug firmly in Tito's right bollock so im not gonna waste my breath any further.


Just take it form me and independent non biased boxing journalist that Tito does not even make the top ten latino all time fighters.

ten i can think of that piss all over his achievments / record

chavez, benitez, sanchez, duran, pedroza, arguello, monzon, olivares, morales, barerra, zarate, vincent salividar,

even guys like marquez and de la hoya as much if not more of a claim to be up there than tito

in fact thats twelve and thats off the top of my head i havent even done any research. :p

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 12:18 PM
Whatever bro, dont hate the player hate the game, its obvoius you have something against Trinidad, and something for Mexicans, that you wont let their nuts out your mouth, its all kool, when Trinidad beats Hopkins than we'll talk, P.S. Puerto Rico has better boxers than the British, weep.

jabsRstiff
05-10-2005, 01:55 PM
JPW.....

I do think IWatch is overrating Trinidad...

But, can you plese tell me how Tito shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as Salvador Sanchez ?

Sanchez was a great fighter.....but only had nine title defenses in one division.....his biggest victory coming over a 122lber (Gomez)...
Sanchez struggled with Pat Ford, Pat Cowdell, Rocky Garcia, Ruben Castillo, & a terribly green (a sub to boot) Azumah Nelson.

Tell me how such a brief career eclipses one like Trinidad's ?

Sanchez died young. This not only kept us from seeing what he may have become, but has also mad him an overrated fighter in history.
I say this, while having been a very big fan if his while he was here.

Boxerdog
05-10-2005, 02:09 PM
Duran, Chavez and Monzon would be my picks and probably in that order.

No matter how much you hate the fact that your girlfriend would rather do DLH than you, you have to recognize his greatness too.

MexicanWarrior
05-10-2005, 02:15 PM
Whatever bro, dont hate the player hate the game, its obvoius you have something against Trinidad, and something for Mexicans, that you wont let their nuts out your mouth, its all kool, when Trinidad beats Hopkins than we'll talk, P.S. Puerto Rico has better boxers than the British, weep.
hahaha you talking about nuts in anyones mouth??
how about you go and build a shrine to Tito.
and im dont say i dont like him cause im mexican
cause i like him hell i was roothign for him Vs DLH
but man.
you saying he is gonna be better than
Duran, Benitez and JCC......
now who is nut hugging plus you cant compare who he fougth Vs who Duran fougth thats just dumb.
now tell me are you saying JCC is overrated and that DLH and Benitez are better than him????

jabsRstiff
05-10-2005, 02:16 PM
Damn......Eder Jofre is getting the short end here.

Those who saw him will tell you he was near perfection in the ring....& was incredibly accomplished.

He was a better fighter than all Latinos except Duran.

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 02:25 PM
hahaha you talking about nuts in anyones mouth??
how about you go and build a shrine to Tito.
and im dont say i dont like him cause im mexican
cause i like him hell i was roothign for him Vs DLH
but man.
you saying he is gonna be better than
Duran, Benitez and JCC......
now who is nut hugging plus you cant compare who he fougth Vs who Duran fougth thats just dumb.
now tell me are you saying JCC is overrated and that DLH and Benitez are better than him????
Chavez wasnt even a legend until he started losing fights, and Duran has fought soo many greats, well lets see how many of those fights he won, compare their records, I dare you, dont talk about it, prove it.

MexicanWarrior
05-10-2005, 02:31 PM
Chavez wasnt even a legend until he started losing fights, and Duran has fought soo many greats, well lets see how many of those fights he won, compare their records, I dare you, dont talk about it, prove it.
ok
Thomas Hearns L
Marvin Hagler L
Surgar Ray Leonard 3 Times W L L
Pipino Cuevas W
Wilfredo Benitez W

Vs

DLH W (hahahah)
Hopkins L
Vargas W
Whitaker W

ok lets see
i think even just beating Sugar Ray once is better than killing
Vargas Whitaker And DLH which he didnt do by the way.

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 02:35 PM
ok
Thomas Hearns L
Marvin Hagler L
Surgar Ray Leonard 3 Times W L L
Pipino Cuevas W
Wilfredo Benitez W
Vs

DLH W (hahahah)
Hopkins L
Vargas W
Whitaker W
Ha! Your new to boxing, no knownledge at all, Benitez beat Duran, your opinion is now worthless NOOB.

MexicanWarrior
05-10-2005, 02:40 PM
Ha! Your new to boxing, no knownledge at all, Benitez beat Duran, your opinion is now worthless NOOB.
and you focus on that mistake because you know
im right nice try bud but its kinda sad a "noob" can make better points in an argument than you.
and you say my opinion is worthless who are you to say so??
a ****ing nuthugger who tries to talk **** everytime someone proofs him wrong.???

cple
05-10-2005, 02:41 PM
I cannot believe someone actually believes Trinidad is superior to Roberto Duran. Trinidad has not beaten anyone on par with a Esteban DeJesus, let alone MOVE UP one division above his natural weight class and defeat a fighter of Leonard's calibre.

cple
05-10-2005, 02:43 PM
Regarding Eder Jofre, i'm not sure if he's considered latino. If so, he is definately the second greatest latino fighter of all-time, behind Duran. His boxing skill and overall physical abilities rival Ray Robinson...and that's no hyperbole. He was that good.

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 02:44 PM
and you focus on that mistake because you know
im right nice try bud but its kinda sad a "noob" can make better points in an argument than you.
and you say my opinion is worthless who are you to say so??
a ****ing nuthugger who tries to talk **** everytime someone proofs him wrong.???
No, cause that only proved you are biased, of course the only one you got wrong is Benitez, who some pretend to give cerdit too, out his whole list, he has one win of Ray, WOW, hes awsome :rolleyes: .
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=002224
That link is to Pipino's ****y record.

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 02:46 PM
I cannot believe someone actually believes Trinidad is superior to Roberto Duran. Trinidad has not beaten anyone on par with a Esteban DeJesus, let alone MOVE UP one division above his natural weight class and defeat a fighter of Leonard's calibre.
I use to think you were a kool poster, until you said you didnt have Trinidad or DLH in your top 50 all time, now I just think your werid.

jabsRstiff
05-10-2005, 02:48 PM
Regarding Eder Jofre, i'm not sure if he's considered latino. If so, he is definately the second greatest latino fighter of all-time, behind Duran. His boxing skill and overall physical abilities rival Ray Robinson...and that's no hyperbole. He was that good.


What makes one a "Latino"

Jofre is from Brazil....which is in South America.
Monzon is from Argentina....also in South America.
Monzon's getting mentioned here.

+= El Jefe=+
05-10-2005, 02:48 PM
I use to think you were a kool poster, until you said you didnt have Trinidad or DLH in your top 50 all time, now I just think your werid.
now tell me who are you to say who is cool and who is not man
you and the warrior are gonna go on arguing forever because
you are not gonna give and he is not gonna give.
now the only thing that concerms me here is you saying jcc is not a true great. can you tell me why please.

jabsRstiff
05-10-2005, 02:52 PM
Chavez & Tito are two of my all-time favorites.

In terms of who was greater.....it's Chavez.


Tito IS a great fighter. Chavez is just greater.

cple
05-10-2005, 03:05 PM
What makes one a "Latino"

Jofre is from Brazil....which is in South America.
Monzon is from Argentina....also in South America.
Monzon's getting mentioned here.

I think "latino" is a term used for people that have spanish as their native tongue. They speak portuguese in Brazil.

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 03:08 PM
Durans Big Name fights -
Esteban De Jesus L, W, W
Sugar Ray Leonard W, L, L (he quit)
Wilfred Benitez L
Marvin Hagler L
Thomas Hearns L

Trinidad big name fights -
Hector Camacho W
Luis Ramon Campas W
Pernell Whitaker W
Oscar De La Hoya W
Fernando Vargas W
Bernard Hopkins L

+= El Jefe=+
05-10-2005, 03:09 PM
Durans Big Name fights -
Esteban De Jesus L, W, W
Sugar Ray Leonard W, L, L (he quit)
Wilfred Benitez L
Marvin Hagler L
Thomas Hearns L

Trinidad big name fights -
Hector Camacho W
Luis Ramon Campas W
Pernell Whitaker W
Oscar De La Hoya W
Fernando Vargas W
so the hopkings fight wasnt a big name fight right?

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 03:12 PM
so the hopkings fight wasnt a big name fight right?
I just added him, he wasnt at the time, but since he beat Trinidad, now he is so highy acclaimed, but still Trinidad is a bum :( .

Durans Big Name fights -
Esteban De Jesus L, W, W
Sugar Ray Leonard W, L, L (he quit)
Wilfred Benitez L
Marvin Hagler L
Thomas Hearns L

Trinidad big name fights -
Hector Camacho W
Luis Ramon Campas W
Pernell Whitaker W
Oscar De La Hoya W
Fernando Vargas W
Bernard Hopkins L
__________________

+= El Jefe=+
05-10-2005, 03:15 PM
[QUOTE=IwatchBoxing]I just added him, he wasnt at the time, but since he beat Trinidad, now he is so highy acclaimed, but still Trinidad is a bum :( .
[QUOTE=IwatchBoxing]
never siad Tito was a bumb just not quite greater than Benitez Duran or JCC
you are still yet to tell my why is JCC overrated??

cple
05-10-2005, 03:16 PM
I use to think you were a kool poster, until you said you didnt have Trinidad or DLH in your top 50 all time, now I just think your werid.

You speak as if i denigrate Trinidad by leaving him out of my top 50. I'm not the only one either. If i remember correctly, a while back, the Ring did not have Trinidad or DLH in their top 50. And that was only ranking the fighters of the last 80 years, excluding turn of the century fighters such as Sam Langford, Joe Gans, Jimmy Wilde, Bob Fitzsimmons, etc. Trinidad barely missed out of my top 50 and is in the 60 range if i remember correctly.

Felix is my favorite fighter today and i truly believe i'm not disrespecting him with that ranking. Placing him in the top 10 all-time, like you believe, would be disrepectful to the fighters that actually deserve more recognition. A fighter's greatness is much more than their win-loss record. Sure, Carmen Basilio has more losses than any mainstream fighter today, but ask any historian and they'll tell you he's a legit all-time great.

I have my opinion and you have yours, so i suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

The Troll
05-10-2005, 03:17 PM
What about John Ruiz 1st Latino Heavyweight champ ever baby! 4 title defences! 2 time Heavyweight champ! how can you have this thread and leave out the quietman! unspeakable disrespect.


Sorry pretender was not around so I had to put his word in for him. :(

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 03:23 PM
You speak as if i denigrate Trinidad by leaving him out of my top 50. I'm not the only one either. If i remember correctly, a while back, the Ring did not have Trinidad or DLH in their top 50.
I read the list they did have them, and anyway, the Ring sucks.

A fighter's greatness is much more than their win-loss record. Sure, Carmen Basilio has more losses than any mainstream fighter today, but ask any historian and they'll tell you he's a legit all-time great.
In that case Kermit Cintron can become top ten too.

But yes records can be misleading, look at Chavez record, he is put above Trinidad, but you cant even name the greats he fought and won.

cple
05-10-2005, 03:24 PM
I just added him, he wasnt at the time, but since he beat Trinidad, now he is so highy acclaimed, but still Trinidad is a bum :( .

Durans Big Name fights -
Esteban De Jesus L, W, W
Sugar Ray Leonard W, L, L (he quit)
Wilfred Benitez L
Marvin Hagler L
Thomas Hearns L

Trinidad big name fights -
Hector Camacho W
Luis Ramon Campas W
Pernell Whitaker W
Oscar De La Hoya W
Fernando Vargas W
Bernard Hopkins L
__________________

For Duran, you forgot Buchanan W, Palomino W, Cuevas W, Moore W, Barkley W.

As for Duran's losses to Hearns and Hagler, they need to be put into perspective. Duran began his career as a bantamweight (118 pounds) and was at his peak at 135. He fought Hearns, arguably the best jr. middleweight of all-time, 19 pounds above his natural weight class. He fought Hagler, a top 4 middleweight all-time, 25 pounds above his natural weight class. Duran moved up and fought legitamate all-time greats.

+= El Jefe=+
05-10-2005, 03:30 PM
You speak as if i denigrate Trinidad by leaving him out of my top 50. I'm not the only one either. If i remember correctly, a while back, the Ring did not have Trinidad or DLH in their top 50.
I read the list they did have them, and anyway, the Ring sucks.

A fighter's greatness is much more than their win-loss record. Sure, Carmen Basilio has more losses than any mainstream fighter today, but ask any historian and they'll tell you he's a legit all-time great.
In that case Kermit Cintron can become top ten too.

But yes records can be misleading, look at Chavez record, he is put above Trinidad, but you cant even name the greats he fought and won.

and you get this results unter the
"if you are not Puerto Rican you suck"
Theory????
well man im not gonna argue with yo ui have to agree to disagree
and im not the first one who does it.

by the way i think Duran the best latino fighter ever.
so if cintron is top 10
the margarito is ****ing God????

cple
05-10-2005, 03:30 PM
You speak as if i denigrate Trinidad by leaving him out of my top 50. I'm not the only one either. If i remember correctly, a while back, the Ring did not have Trinidad or DLH in their top 50.
I read the list they did have them, and anyway, the Ring sucks.

A fighter's greatness is much more than their win-loss record. Sure, Carmen Basilio has more losses than any mainstream fighter today, but ask any historian and they'll tell you he's a legit all-time great.
In that case Kermit Cintron can become top ten too.

I realize there is no use in debating with you, but for some reason, i'm compelled to continue.

So i pulled out that issue of The Ring and they rank Trinidad at 51 and DLH at 75. I agree The Ring is not the end-all of all discussions and i definately had some problems with the list, but it goes to show that i am not the only one to leave Trinidad and DLH out of the top 50.

When Cintron beats a fighter of Ray Robinson's calibre, like Basilio did, then i'll call him an all-time great.

jabsRstiff
05-10-2005, 03:30 PM
I believe Leonard, Hearns, & Hagler would have all KO'd Felix Trinidad.

jmctheone
05-10-2005, 03:36 PM
Roberto Duran best latino fighter!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :boxing:

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 03:49 PM
One of the biggest wins Chavez has is Camacho, who lost to Trinidad just one year after losing to Chavez, and Macho lost one year before losing to Chavez.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000607

jabsRstiff
05-10-2005, 03:55 PM
Chavez absolutely devastated Edwin Rosario, at a time when Rosario was considered one of the 5 best in the world, & probably the sport's hardets hitter lb4lb.
Chavez came up in weight to do it, also.

Chavez fought Meldrick Taylor. He moved up in weight & fought him.
Taylor was considered the second-best fighter in the world.

He & Chavez fought one of the single greatest fought fights in history....& Chavez prevailed.

Iwatch...

Do you know these things....these details about Chavez....or are you just looking in record books ?

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 04:00 PM
Chavez absolutely devastated Edwin Rosario, at a time when Rosario was considered one of the 5 best in the world, & probably the sport's hardets hitter lb4lb.
Chavez came up in weight to do it, also.
Sounds like Trinidad, but he has done that alot of times.

Chavez fought Meldrick Taylor. He moved up in weight & fought him.
Taylor was considered the second-best fighter in the world.
Trinidad been there, done that, anybody remenber his fight with DLH? No bad horrible stoppages for Tito tho....

He & Chavez fought one of the single greatest fought fights in history....& Chavez prevailed.
Yeah, but Trinidads fight wasnt so great cause DLH ran.

Iwatch...

Do you know these things....these details about Chavez....or are you just looking in record books ?
Does it really matter? I'am only 19, and if I was alittle bit older I might be as biased as you old timers, records cant lie...as bad

Yogi
05-10-2005, 04:20 PM
I don't know why boxing fans insist on trying to debate with the obvious nut huggers, because no matter how much reasoning and substance you have behind your arguements, those nut hugger types are always blindly defensive about their favourite fighter and will never, ever admit that they are wrong.

It's pointless really, so I say let these nut huggers carry on with their ignorance.

Chups
05-10-2005, 09:02 PM
I think "latino" is a term used for people that have spanish as their native tongue. They speak portuguese in Brazil.


I've tried to ask that question in this forum..I thought it was answered...but this post made me even more confused.

Here's the thread:


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34776

chavezjr
05-10-2005, 10:20 PM
Chavez fought Meldrick Taylor. He moved up in weight & fought him.
Taylor was considered the second-best fighter in the world.
Trinidad been there, done that, anybody remenber his fight with DLH? No bad horrible stoppages for Tito tho....

He & Chavez fought one of the single greatest fought fights in history....& Chavez prevailed.
Yeah, but Trinidads fight wasnt so great cause DLH ran.

Are you trying to say that Trinidad's loss to De la Hoya was better than Chavez's win over Taylor just because De la Hoya ran? I'll admit Trinidad is a great fighter, but you'll have to give me better reasons than that to think he's the best.

czars_salad
05-10-2005, 10:44 PM
duran, whoelse...

wmute
05-10-2005, 11:07 PM
I don't know why boxing fans insist on trying to debate with the obvious nut huggers, because no matter how much reasoning and substance you have behind your arguements, those nut hugger types are always blindly defensive about their favourite fighter and will never, ever admit that they are wrong.

It's pointless really, so I say let these nut huggers carry on with their ignorance.

amen

you are right: this is getting ridiculous,

btw nicolino loche and jose napoles don't appear in any list, I am surprised

IwatchBoxing
05-10-2005, 11:36 PM
Are you trying to say that Trinidad's loss to De la Hoya was better than Chavez's win over Taylor just because De la Hoya ran? I'll admit Trinidad is a great fighter, but you'll have to give me better reasons than that to think he's the best.
Chavez didnt beat Taylor the first time, the Ref stoped the fight for him.

welshwales
05-11-2005, 04:17 PM
Id have to say JCC

EvilMark
05-11-2005, 04:38 PM
JCC and Wilfredo GOmez

J !
05-12-2005, 08:12 AM
Whatever bro, dont hate the player hate the game, its obvoius you have something against Trinidad, and something for Mexicans, that you wont let their nuts out your mouth, its all kool, when Trinidad beats Hopkins than we'll talk, P.S. Puerto Rico has better boxers than the British, weep.


has it really? I take issue with that my friend.
based on what cotto and tito? you need to live up to your name and stop nut hugging and start watching boxing mate.

try these for starters Johnny Nelson, Joe Calzaghe, Hatton, Witter, Froch, Haye, Clinton Woods, Carl Thompson, Robin Reid, Eastman, Scot Harrison, Wayne Mcullough, Damen Kelly.


all independently top ten ranked.

lets see yours. ;)


To Jabs my mate, Sanchez quite simply cos in terms of what he achieved in such a time for one so young it blatently points to him being more skilled and talented than trinindad. Also beating the professor is a better scalp than Tito has on his resume. period.

you are talking aobut a man who is rated top five all time featherweight in terms of skills and as a champ and he died so young, Sanchez should really be one of the last names on the list you are challenging, Tito is a top five nothing good solid power puncher but a legend no chance.

Taken on some less than in their prime champs, and won a disputed decision over de la hoya and get his ass whipped by hopkins thats not the stuff of legend no.

I dont mind tito but when people start crapping on about top ten of all time it makes me wanna ****. ;)

i do the same over Pac as well, good fighter with still a lot to prove.

basically im anti nuthugging when it comes to historically ranking fighters, I havent even done any research to the real olden days but am sure I could come up with another ten who could probably be ranked over tito in an all time latino list if I could be arsed.

all of this is just my opinion but i dont hate trinidad I just think like pac he is overated by many on here.

hers toa good fight at the weekend anyway enjoy guys and "iwatchboxing" im sure you will be enjoy. :boxing:

jabsRstiff
05-12-2005, 10:38 AM
has it really? I take issue with that my friend.
based on what cotto and tito? you need to live up to your name and stop nut hugging and start watching boxing mate.

try these for starters Johnny Nelson, Joe Calzaghe, Hatton, Witter, Froch, Haye, Clinton Woods, Carl Thompson, Robin Reid, Eastman, Scot Harrison, Wayne Mcullough, Damen Kelly.


all independently top ten ranked.

lets see yours. ;)


To Jabs my mate, Sanchez quite simply cos in terms of what he achieved in such a time for one so young it blatently points to him being more skilled and talented than trinindad. Also beating the professor is a better scalp than Tito has on his resume. period.

you are talking aobut a man who is rated top five all time featherweight in terms of skills and as a champ and he died so young, Sanchez should really be one of the last names on the list you are challenging, Tito is a top five nothing good solid power puncher but a legend no chance.

Taken on some less than in their prime champs, and won a disputed decision over de la hoya and get his ass whipped by hopkins thats not the stuff of legend no.

I dont mind tito but when people start crapping on about top ten of all time it makes me wanna ****. ;)

i do the same over Pac as well, good fighter with still a lot to prove.

basically im anti nuthugging when it comes to historically ranking fighters, I havent even done any research to the real olden days but am sure I could come up with another ten who could probably be ranked over tito in an all time latino list if I could be arsed.

all of this is just my opinion but i dont hate trinidad I just think like pac he is overated by many on here.

hers toa good fight at the weekend anyway enjoy guys and "iwatchboxing" im sure you will be enjoy. :boxing:


When Sanchez beat the "Professor".....he was more like a grade-school student.
If they rematched a year later....Nelson would have won. I hold that win AGAINST Sanchez....even though Nelson became a great fighter.

Sanchez only shined against one kind of fighter....a face-firster.
Danny Lopez & Gomez came charging into sanchez with no regards for defense (well, Lopez never had any defense).
When Sanchez faced guys who gave him movement, he looked ordinary, was greatly troubled.


If you think all Trinidad has is a punch JPW.....I really don't understand. You're a good, knowledgable poster....I'd expect that you'd realize a one-dimensional puncher (like Cuevas, Ruddock, etc.) would never have risen up through various weight classes & beaten the guys Trinidad has.

IwatchBoxing
05-12-2005, 11:25 AM
you are talking aobut a man who is rated top five all time featherweight in terms of skills and as a champ and he died so young, Sanchez should really be one of the last names on the list you are challenging, Tito is a top five nothing good solid power puncher but a legend no chance.

Taken on some less than in their prime champs, and won a disputed decision over de la hoya and get his ass whipped by hopkins thats not the stuff of legend no.

Rated top five by who? Haters like you? Even Hearns won a disputed decision against Benitez who beat Durans ass, than got dominated by Hagler. Chavez won a disputed decision against Taylor who was stoped on his feet with 2 sec's left on the clock, and he got dominated by Pernell Whitaker, who Trinidad beat with a record of 40-2-1. Duran has been dominated and just flat out QUIT in one of his fights, like Chavez did. You hold that against him cause your a hater. Sanchez beat Gomez, and thats about it, too young, he would probaly have been greater.

rudy
05-12-2005, 11:25 AM
I was just reading this thread and saw the following quote


try these for starters Johnny Nelson, Joe Calzaghe, Hatton, Witter, Froch, Haye, Clinton Woods, Carl Thompson, Robin Reid, Eastman, Scot Harrison, Wayne Mcullough, Damen Kelly.


HOW THE HELL CAN anybody put Johnny Nelson in as an example of World Class the guy is the biggest joke in British Boxing history he I ashamed when I hear people call him world class no wonder the say boxing is a mug games. In case u need reminding Johnny Nelson is the So called world class fighter that when he got his first title chance he did not just blew it but going all out instead he does not throw punch in in his two World Title attempts against Carlos De Leon and James Warring, then he gets a gift over Carl Thompson, he is a disgrace and has never really beaten a true world class fighter where the ending is not controvesial.

Do u hear anybody talking about unification fights with Nelson only Enzo because his title that he holds nothing and needs something, what makes me laugh I cannot understand how much talk went on about how nelson was going to fight Jirov, Mike Tyson but I am sure the promoters must have also remembered his fight against Henry Akinwiade, the guy does not deserve to be called a fighter it was only last year there was a kidnapp plot to get him off sky sports because his fights were that bad thank god sky sports dropped him by not showing his fights

J !
05-12-2005, 11:29 AM
rudyt liek it or not mate he is rated top ten.

he is a class counterpuncher just cos you dont like his style, id like you to name me ten cruisers who are better than him.

J !
05-12-2005, 11:30 AM
Rated top five by who? Haters like you? Even Hearns won a disputed decision against Benitez who beat Durans ass, than got dominated by Hagler. Chavez won a disputed decision against Taylor who was stoped on his feet with 2 sec's left on the clock, and he got dominated by Pernell Whitaker, who Trinidad beat with a record of 40-2-1. Duran has been dominated and just flat out QUIT in one of his fights, like Chavez did. You hold that against him cause your a hater. Sanchez beat Gomez, and thats about it, too young, he would probaly have been greater.


so sanchez isnt a top five featherweifht of all time then.

i thitnk you need to do some reading sunshine.

i dont hate tito i just rate him as highly as you get over it.

****inell this place is doing my head in im off for a while.

ill be back though probas after winky beats up your heroes ass :D

IwatchBoxing
05-12-2005, 11:33 AM
so sanchez isnt a top five featherweifht of all time then.

i thitnk you need to do some reading sunshine.

i dont hate tito i just rate him as highly as you get over it.

****inell this place is doing my head in im off for a while.

ill be back though probas after winky beats up your heroes ass :D
Sure, when you come back dont forget to let go of the Mexicans nuts :D .

Journeyman
05-14-2005, 03:01 AM
im all late in this thread but...The Greatest Latino Fighter of all time is ROBERTO DURAN. If you cannot get past this then please stop watching/participating in the sport of boxing.

kadyo
05-14-2005, 03:13 AM
I say it's Julio Cesar Chavez :)

Natty Dread
05-14-2005, 04:25 AM
I would pick Roberto Duran

DoubleTap`
05-14-2005, 08:44 AM
My vote goes to Roberto Duran. :boxing:

Ricomania77
05-15-2005, 04:54 AM
I wonder where tito stands after he got dominated the way he was today

+= El Jefe=+
05-15-2005, 03:11 PM
I say Duran, but a few more good wins for Trinidad would make him the greatest.

Close is Oscar De La Hoya, Benitez.
does the Winky fight change your opinion??

J !
05-16-2005, 07:22 AM
Sure, when you come back dont forget to let go of the Mexicans nuts :D .


maybe now you will accept im not a hater but just know what im talking about. Tito has no plan B so therefroe cannot be a GREAT fighter.

A good one sure, a hall of famer even but top ten lists NO.

IwatchBoxing
05-16-2005, 10:33 AM
maybe now you will accept im not a hater but just know what im talking about. Tito has no plan B so therefroe cannot be a GREAT fighter.

A good one sure, a hall of famer even but top ten lists NO.
At Welterweight I would think yes, what is your top ten for Middle and Welter? I understand he was beaten VERY badly two times, but he could aslo be going downhill you never know, he had just came out of retirement, yes he looked good with Mayorga, but was his heart really into his return? I'm not sold, either way he is still a monster to be in the ring with, it took 39 fights for people to study his every move to beat him, and hopefully he will try again, and come back prepared (if he doesnt really retire).

BadMagick
05-16-2005, 11:13 AM
At Welterweight I would think yes, what is your top ten for Middle and Welter? I understand he was beaten VERY badly two times, but he could aslo be going downhill you never know, he had just came out of retirement, yes he looked good with Mayorga, but was his heart really into his return? I'm not sold, either way he is still a monster to be in the ring with, it took 39 fights for people to study his every move to beat him, and hopefully he will try again, and come back prepared (if he doesnt really retire).

It didn't take 39 fights for them to study his "every" move. All the guy had was a big left hook. The thing with all the fights he won were that the guys were stupid and stood toe-to-toe with him. I have to give him credit for taking advantage of that, but other than that, he's a very one-dimensional fighter.

All three times he fought a true boxer, he lost. Everyone that doesn't suck on Tito's dick 24/7 knows and admits he really lost to DLH, and got a gift decision. He got torn apart by B-Hop, and now Winky.

It has nothing to do with him "goind down hill," either. The guy just can't fight people who don't trade with him.

J !
05-16-2005, 11:36 AM
It didn't take 39 fights for them to study his "every" move. All the guy had was a big left hook. The thing with all the fights he won were that the guys were stupid and stood toe-to-toe with him. I have to give him credit for taking advantage of that, but other than that, he's a very one-dimensional fighter.

All three times he fought a true boxer, he lost. Everyone that doesn't suck on Tito's dick 24/7 knows and admits he really lost to DLH, and got a gift decision. He got torn apart by B-Hop, and now Winky.

It has nothing to do with him "goind down hill," either. The guy just can't fight people who don't trade with him.


FAIR COMMENT. I like Tito brave fighter and showed he was a true sportsman and gent at the end of the fight with Wiky showed real clas sthere, no histrionics no moaning just a nod of the head and smile, anyway back to the listing GREAT fighters have a plan B, like Snachez when he pulled it out the bag against Azumah.
Tito and Pac in my opinion dont have this in their arsenal this is why they will be good all time fighters and not great onjes.

Sorry I watch boxing, i take no pleasure in this when your man has just lost mate, its not gloating just backing up what Ive always thought. Hope you can see that. :boxing:

ill have think aobut my all time top ten welters middles etc, as I dont make these lists on a whim and get back to you.

respect to you mate you shouted for your man til the end ive no doubt :boxing:

IwatchBoxing
05-16-2005, 11:51 AM
JPW I'll be waiting for your list, I know it must be good :D .

But Trinidad was a differnit fighter at Welterweight, he actually boxed and defended his belt 18 something times against only the best, he has great heart, I am not going to far when questioning if its there or not when a fighter is fighting unlike himself, just how Hopkins and Winky dominated Trinidad, Tito had dominated others.

J !
05-16-2005, 11:54 AM
HE WAS AMUCH BETTER WELTERWIEGHT FOR SURE.

nice footer by the way. :D

AintGottaClue
05-16-2005, 08:47 PM
why dont u rate monzon higher i mean he is top 3 middlewieght ever

J !
05-17-2005, 07:50 AM
thats debatatable i have him at three as requested my top ten middles at present are as follows:

1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Bob Fitzimmons
7. Stan Ketchal
8. Roy Jones
9. Marcel Cerdan
10 Jake la motta

Hnourable metions Tony Zale, Suger Ray Robinson, Dick Tiger, Rocky Graziano.

Top ten welterweights

1. Sugar Ray Rob
2. Suger Ray Lenoard
3. Henry Amrstrong
4. Wilfred Benitez
5. Mickey Walker
6. Kid Gavalian
7. Duran
8. Emile Griffith
9. Tommy Heartns
10. Carmen Basillo

Special mentions to De la hoya, Tito, and pernell whitaker.

there you go . :boxing:

AintGottaClue
05-17-2005, 08:08 AM
thats debatatable i have him at three as requested my top ten middles at present are as follows:

1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Bob Fitzimmons
7. Stan Ketchal
8. Roy Jones
9. Marcel Cerdan
10 Jake la motta

Hnourable metions Tony Zale, Suger Ray Robinson, Dick Tiger, Rocky Graziano.

Top ten welterweights

1. Sugar Ray Rob
2. Suger Ray Lenoard
3. Henry Amrstrong
4. Wilfred Benitez
5. Mickey Walker
6. Kid Gavalian
7. Duran
8. Emile Griffith
9. Tommy Heartns
10. Carmen Basillo

Special mentions to De la hoya, Tito, and pernell whitaker.

there you go . :boxing:


u have SRR at 5 and u give him an honor mention? greb is overrated lmao

J !
05-17-2005, 08:13 AM
sorry thats blatently a **** up.
its meant to be Sugar ray lenoard.

explain to me how greb was overated.

i also misse doff an honourable mention for ted kid lewis who may on another day make it to the lower end of the list.

depends on my mood and theres so many great fighter im bound to have missed some off somewhere but its pretty much there.

IwatchBoxing
05-17-2005, 09:43 AM
Duran wasnt even at Welterweight for awhile, he lost his first WBC Welterweight Title in his first defence to Sugar Ray Leonard, and hes known for losing.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000080

And can someone explain How Carmen upsets DLH and Trinidad when he loses alot? He lost to a guy 3-13-3.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=008997

And good looking on 4. Wilfred Benitez, many underrated him.

J !
05-17-2005, 10:15 AM
Simple levels of opposition.

We are talking about is reign as Welter champ i think most would say Carmen deserves to be in there.

Duran beat lenoard as welterwight so deserves to be inthere.
again few would argue his inclusion.

Im not going to get into another tito coversation with you and why you would have him in there and why i wouldnt cos your too biased on the subject you asked for lists I gave them to you buddy. ;)

Tito got exposed for what he is against hopkins and agian last wekeend if he had 80 odd fights he would have alot more losses on there too. Tito is a good fighter, one with great power in that left but one who is one dimensional and had no plan b.

its too easy to pick holes in such lists but i gave you the best i could come up with a range of fighters fomr different era's if you dont agree thats fine Im not saying those lists are spot on but they arent bad by any stretch of the imagination.

J !
05-17-2005, 10:50 AM
case in point i forgot another who would be ranked higher tan tito in the latino list Ricardo Lopez.

Jabs Ive only just seen you post on Sanchez mate you vastly underate the man, maynbe i underate Tito but you certianly are underating Sanchez.

eff me the guy cleaned up the feathweight div.
Azumah, danny lopez twice (an eleven time wbc champ) Ruben Castillo, destroyed Wilfredo Gomez, you say he struggled agianst Cowdell but thats debatable two judges has it wide for sanchez and he floored pat dont forget..he did this in a two year period defending his title 9 times in a 2 year period.

yeah he was **** hey! :eek: :eek: :eek:

IwatchBoxing
05-17-2005, 12:04 PM
Simple levels of opposition. We are talking about is reign as Welter champ i think most would say Carmen deserves to be in there. This is biased and a joke, that guy sucks.

Duran beat lenoard as welterwight so deserves to be inthere.
again few would argue his inclusion.
Just cause he beat him means nothing, that is an insult to people who actually fought at Welterweight.

Im not going to get into another tito coversation with you and why you would have him in there and why i wouldnt cos your too biased on the subject you asked for lists I gave them to you buddy. ;) You have Carmen, a loser, on your list, and I'm biased? Durans weight is Lightweight, not Welter.

Tito got exposed for what he is against hopkins and agian last wekeend if he had 80 odd fights he would have alot more losses on there too. Tito is a good fighter, one with great power in that left but one who is one dimensional and had no plan b.
Trinidad wasnt exposed in his 18 defenses at welterweight, and beat three all time greats.

its too easy to pick holes in such lists but i gave you the best i could come up with a range of fighters fomr different era's if you dont agree thats fine Im not saying those lists are spot on but they arent bad by any stretch of the imagination.Too easy to make excuses for a guy who loses to everybody when your not into reason, or commen sense

IwatchBoxing
05-17-2005, 02:10 PM
Sugar Ray Rob
Suger Ray Lenoard
Henry Amrstrong
Wilfred Benitez
Mickey Walker
Kid Gavalian
Tommy Hearns
Trinidad
Oscar De La Hoya


Seems much better. :D

wmute
05-17-2005, 04:53 PM
jose napoles should be in any top 10 welter lists

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=009025

http://www.cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box5-00.htm#napoles

lost only on cuts, except against monzon at 160

champion (lineal champ, not tito's 18 iBS... oops ibf... defenses...)
from 69 to 75 (with a break to a cut loss, avenged by a quite vicious tko 6 months later)

adeelr
05-17-2005, 06:03 PM
Duran, chavez, Oscar

kdr
05-17-2005, 09:04 PM
chavez , duran can both claim it .
__________________
viva mexico !

Shaolin Bushido
05-17-2005, 11:31 PM
Despite the accolades of some guys I still love Alexis Arguello. He was so classy and effective in the ring. His record is still the envy of most guys who fight today and with only a few hiccups he was such a warrior in the ring.

Sal Sanchez had his career shortened but was VERY respected prior to his death. There's so many destroyers at the mid and low weight classes ... you don't know where to begin.

I DON'T think it was Chavez however. He really only came to my attention AFTER his prime but he was still an asskicker even at the higher weights he competed in.

Shaolin Bushido
05-17-2005, 11:31 PM
I can definitely support Duran for this award though.

czars_salad
05-17-2005, 11:52 PM
I can definitely support Duran for this award though.
me too.... but his advantage over chavez is slim, what do you think?

Shaolin Bushido
05-17-2005, 11:55 PM
It's hard to argue with Chavez' record; I guess that when he was really PRIME, I simply missed huge chunks of his career. That also happened with other guys and the only explanation is that I was totally oblivious.

In the Corps, in Beirut, Okinawa ... somewhere. I can live with Chavez too, I guess.(boxrec, here I come)

czars_salad
05-17-2005, 11:59 PM
It's hard to argue with Chavez' record; I guess that when he was really PRIME, I simply missed huge chunks of his career. That also happened with other guys and the only explanation is that I was totally oblivious.

In the Corps, in Beirut, Okinawa ... somewhere. I can live with Chavez too, I guess.(boxrec, here I come)
i grew up watching most of duran's fights, coz my father likes him alot, and the rest of the fab four (hearns, leonard, hagler). i was not able to watch most of chavez' fight especially in his prime. most of his achievements that i know of came from the articles i read about him

J !
05-18-2005, 04:25 AM
Simple levels of opposition. We are talking about is reign as Welter champ i think most would say Carmen deserves to be in there. This is biased and a joke, that guy sucks.

Duran beat lenoard as welterwight so deserves to be inthere.
again few would argue his inclusion.
Just cause he beat him means nothing, that is an insult to people who actually fought at Welterweight.

Im not going to get into another tito coversation with you and why you would have him in there and why i wouldnt cos your too biased on the subject you asked for lists I gave them to you buddy. ;) You have Carmen, a loser, on your list, and I'm biased? Durans weight is Lightweight, not Welter.

Tito got exposed for what he is against hopkins and agian last wekeend if he had 80 odd fights he would have alot more losses on there too. Tito is a good fighter, one with great power in that left but one who is one dimensional and had no plan b.
Trinidad wasnt exposed in his 18 defenses at welterweight, and beat three all time greats.

its too easy to pick holes in such lists but i gave you the best i could come up with a range of fighters fomr different era's if you dont agree thats fine Im not saying those lists are spot on but they arent bad by any stretch of the imagination.Too easy to make excuses for a guy who loses to everybody when your not into reason, or commen sense


when basillo fought there was one belt he was fighting legends everytime he stepped in the ring. Tito could pick and choose theres no comparsion one belt or four titles, youve made your pick.

Now get back to licking titos ball bag you bore me. :D

rudy
05-18-2005, 09:30 AM
I have never seen so much rubbish in my life I list what some prat wrote

1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Bob Fitzimmons
7. Stan Ketchal
8. Roy Jones
9. Marcel Cerdan
10 Jake la motta

How the Hell can Greb be Top he you have not seen any films of him and plus he never threw a left hook. I won't go into the others but Roy Jones (LOL Big time) he gets knocked out twice in a row and still in somebody top ten I think somebody is smoking crack or is Gay

J !
05-18-2005, 10:13 AM
I have never seen so much rubbish in my life I list what some prat wrote

1. Harry Greb
2. Marvin Hagler
3. Carlos Monzon
4. Bernard Hopkins
5. Sugar Ray Robinson
6. Bob Fitzimmons
7. Stan Ketchal
8. Roy Jones
9. Marcel Cerdan
10 Jake la motta

How the Hell can Greb be Top he you have not seen any films of him and plus he never threw a left hook. I won't go into the others but Roy Jones (LOL Big time) he gets knocked out twice in a row and still in somebody top ten I think somebody is smoking crack or is Gay

As for your idea i havent sen films of him I have some rare footage on dvd so what you on about? i also have done a certain amount of research on the man as I have on most of those listed.

well done you really make me want to talk to you.
wanker. :mad:
you obviously have no idea what you are on about, we are talking middleweights you prick.
when did roy get sparked as middleweight oh yeah thats right he didnt.

noe **** off and go play with the traffic you idiot.

jesus some people. :rolleyes:

latino~heat
05-18-2005, 10:43 AM
im new to this forum..die hard boxing fan...
step pops, fought in 80's and under one of Durans undercard..
1st let me say this...todays fighters in no way can compare to ol'school fighters..yes there some good ones, but not the caliber of old ones...Boxing has change, I mean look at the heavyweight, it SUCKS!money took the best of things from greedy promoters to greedy fighters...one person I can compare to Duran is Gatti..not that he is the best~ but shows more heart than anyone ive seen. todays age fighters would be a barrera, morales, mayweather, trinidad..and on...but since boxing has changed, its hard to say who is the best, pound for pound! :boxing:

rudy
05-18-2005, 11:06 AM
please show me the film of Harry Greb and explain why you think he is the Greatest why because you saw the film in black and white. I have seen Jack Johnnson clips to understand the guy is a great fighter please I am now begging to understand how u think Harry Greb is great.

Too many like to rave about old time fighters so educate me please. Roy Jones was not at middleweight long enough for greatness.

So once again without no swearing WHY IS HARRY GREB GREAT ?

rudy
05-18-2005, 11:09 AM
Oh I see u have Bob Fitzsimons the racist wanker who was not that good. You need to remember some of these guys got their name for just stepping in the ring. Fitsimons was not great

J !
05-18-2005, 11:43 AM
HANG ON WITH NO SWEARING WASNT IT YOU THAT CALLED ME NAMES?


as for greb workrate, quality of opponent and durability which was legendary. He fought 40 odd times a year in some years against the top contenders and was the only man to beat Gene Tunney that do you for now ?

fitzsimmons wasnt that good are you having a larf.

you need to go do some research mate come back and talk to me when you have son. :boxing:

Yogi
05-18-2005, 01:58 PM
How the Hell can Greb be Top he you have not seen any films of him and plus he never threw a left hook.

Where have you heard that Greb "never threw a left hook"? Are you serious, man?

I was just reading the 'New York Times' description of the first Greb/Tunney fight (a day after, round-by-round report), and the second line in their fight writeup is this (describing the very first round);

"Greb landed a left hook on the nose which drew blood."

That's only the second sentence in that fight description, man. There's also a lot more left hooks from Greb that are described as landing in that fight, and also other fights of Harry Greb.

rudy
05-18-2005, 02:22 PM
ok I will do some research on Greb as for Fitzsimon I have seen footage of him and I honestly beleive he would have had trouble with even Henry Cooper let alone any other heavyweight as for Greb still don't rate I am still curious to see the footage of him.

give me links about Greb to read upon I will do my research but I remember this from reading the ring magazine many years ago. But since your talking have u boxed, have u every written an article and spoken to fighters. When u do come back to me. I am honest to enought to admit I might have been wrong about the left hooks but will check

Yogi
05-18-2005, 02:36 PM
ok I will do some research on Greb as for Fitzsimon I have seen footage of him and I honestly beleive he would have had trouble with even Henry Cooper let alone any other heavyweight as for Greb still don't rate I am still curious to see the footage of him.

give me links about Greb to read upon I will do my research but I remember this from reading the ring magazine many years ago. But since your talking have u boxed, have u every written an article and spoken to fighters. When u do come back to me. I am honest to enought to admit I might have been wrong about the left hooks but will check

www.harrygreb.com

There's a starting point for you and your Greb research, Rudy. The fight description that I described is on that site, as well as other fight descriptions of Harry Greb.

Check it out!

P.S. You don't need to be a boxer (which I was when I was much younger) to know how to read the words, "left hook". All you really need is about a grade one level education, don't you think?

IwatchBoxing
05-18-2005, 09:11 PM
when basillo fought there was one belt he was fighting legends everytime he stepped in the ring. Tito could pick and choose theres no comparsion one belt or four titles, youve made your pick.

Now get back to licking titos ball bag you bore me. :D
No talent got by Trinidad, he fought everyone, Basillo fought in a time where records where fluffed.
Lost to Connie Thies 5-0-2, Johnny Cunningham 3-13-3 , Mike Koballa 9-5-2. His record was 56-16, 7 draws. He lost 1/3rd of his fights.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=008997

J !
05-19-2005, 04:49 AM
look chaps the problem with these lists is people will cherry pick, this is just my opinion we are talking about that was asked for and im glad provoked some lively deabate, we are talking when he (carmen)was a welterweight here (and rudy talking about fitzimmons as a middle not a heavy please stick to at least the weight we were discussing the lists based on when ranking them. I never said i had Fitz in my top ten heavies did I!?). :confused:

As for basillo at welter weight look who he fought, not the losses at the beginning and the end of his career, the legends he went in the ring with in some cases overcame.

ike williams, billy graham, kid gavalian (ok he lost but was split decision)Tony demarco, Johnny Saxton HE EVEN BEAT SUGAR RAY AT MIDDLE and you are denying the blokes a great come on man, are you mad.

The fact is these guys had one belt to fight for, and they fought on a bi-weekly basis if you fight that often of course there are going to be injuries and strains that get overlooked and may account for some losses. Merely looking at his record in box rec does not constitute research chaps.

modern fighters are massivly protected in this regard compared to the olden guys.

There is an argument for example that a chap called Bert Gilroy should be ranked in an all time top ten middelweight list, he had many opportunites robbed byt the war and Jocxk Mcavoy avoided him like the plague so he never got the shot he deserved, this guy took on all comers and was unbeaten for six years at one point, he just never got his shot.

No offence I watch, but you really do need to emerge from the shadow of Tito ball bag and get yourself some books on the old booths and the way boxing was in its golden era.

Rudy I never boxed but did do karate to a deent level though I packed up some time ago, have fought in competitions and so know what it is to train and go into a fight situation.

and i write for this lot so i do read up on all this stuff. Its always good to have lively debate though and some stuff people say takes time to sink inm but you should never close your mind as there is so much you dont know even when you think you do. :boxing: ;)

http://www.britishboxing.net/?page=news&id=669

J !
05-19-2005, 05:02 AM
No talent got by Trinidad, he fought everyone, Basillo fought in a time where records where fluffed.
[[/url]


are you sane? i think that comment displays your ignorance.

im interested to hear how when there was onoly one championship belt they fought a lower grade of opposition than now when there are 4 main and dozens of minor orgs, and thats before we even get into the fact that there only 9 weight diviions not 17 like now.


you really are talking crap mate sorry but...theres no other way to put it.

rudy
05-19-2005, 05:49 AM
don't knock Basillo he was very good as for some of the others not so sure. fitzsimons is debateable

IwatchBoxing
05-19-2005, 11:44 AM
are you sane? i think that comment displays your ignorance.

im interested to hear how when there was onoly one championship belt they fought a lower grade of opposition than now when there are 4 main and dozens of minor orgs, and thats before we even get into the fact that there only 9 weight diviions not 17 like now.


you really are talking crap mate sorry but...theres no other way to put it.
Having one main belt and fighting everyone worth fighting seem to be the same thing, this whole arguement is old time vs. modern time, in their time fighting welterweight was two divsions of today, Kid Gavilan fought at the same speed as Basillo, yet most of his loses (17) where unprimed, Basillo might of been a good fighter but not TOP TEN, 11 of Basillos loses where primed, time to move on, their are new fighters today. Hopkins holds all the middleweight belts, but he doesnt allways fight the best in the world.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=008997

J !
05-19-2005, 11:49 AM
he has at his own weight who at middle has he missed then?
seems to me he fought everoyne in his own weight class.

we dont agree thats cool tho matey, all about opinions after all.

nice chatting to you even if we dont see eye to eye :boxing:

IwatchBoxing
05-19-2005, 11:53 AM
he has at his own weight who at middle has he missed then?
seems to me he fought everoyne in his own weight class.

we dont agree thats cool tho matey, all about opinions after all.

nice chatting to you even if we dont see eye to eye :boxing:
thats it, its like he has one belt, he fights who boxing tells him, when he could of moved up without those belts to fight Roy Jones, Lacy, James toney, or had moved down to face Oscar or Trinidad, his division isnt that great right now.

I agree a good chat, you had me sonned there for a moment, I had to go over to Boxrec in a quick :D .

J !
05-19-2005, 12:00 PM
kool bro! i still dont agree though haha cant condemn a man for staying at his weight and beating whomever.

this weight hopping for the sake of it sucks imo.

i guess im a bit of a traditionalist ;)

IwatchBoxing
05-19-2005, 12:02 PM
kool bro! i still dont agree though haha cant condemn a man for staying at his weight and beating whomever.

this weight hopping for the sake of it sucks imo.

i guess im a bit of a traditionalist ;)
Hopkins is still a great fighter, he makes the Top Ten middleweights, but he could of done better and fight more great fighters, the best should fight only the best, my way of thinking, or no it becomes an amautar record, dont you think.

J !
05-19-2005, 12:04 PM
to me he has fougth the best available, he reckons that after taylor he is gonna take on the winne rof johnson tarver so guess that makes ya a lil happier? :)

MexicanWarrior
05-19-2005, 01:34 PM
Roberto Mano De Piedra Duran

cple
05-19-2005, 01:50 PM
How is DLH a top 10 welterweight? Even though it is probably his natural weight class, he was far from dominant or impressive. Against his best opponents--Trinidad, Mosley, Quartey, Whitaker--he is 2-2. And many believe he lost to both Quartey and Whitaker.

jchavez12345
05-19-2005, 02:14 PM
Imo, Julio Cesar Chavez

IwatchBoxing
05-19-2005, 02:52 PM
How is DLH a top 10 welterweight? Even though it is probably his natural weight class, he was far from dominant or impressive. Against his best opponents--Trinidad, Mosley, Quartey, Whitaker--he is 2-2. And many believe he lost to both Quartey and Whitaker.
Who is on your top ten Welterweights?

cple
05-19-2005, 03:35 PM
Who is on your top ten Welterweights?

Why do you need to know my top 10 to justify yours?

Anyways, here's my list (i have a saved list somewhere, but i can't find it. however, it's similiar to this):

1. Ray Robinson
2. Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Mickey Walker
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Carmen Basilio
10. Barney Ross

Then there are fighters such as Joe Walcott (probably deserves a top 10 rating, but i need to research him some more), Felix Trinidad, Tommy Ryan, Luis Rodriguez, and Kid McCoy that deserve recognition.

tito4life216
05-19-2005, 11:38 PM
Interesting Stuff on this thread, BUT most interesting of all are those that say JCC is the "Greatest Latino Fighter of all time" HA HA....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

That just cannot be true, You may ask...but WHY????

ANSWER: JCC is an overrated boxer, his BIGGEST Fights were the most controversial (Whitaker,Taylor, and even the Randall rematch..just to name a FEW) Yes he was great, but he is no way near the GREATEST! Why else was he overrated? Well EVERYONE on this thread seems to have forgotten that Chavez's record is so impressive because he fought a whole lot of nobody's early in his career (yes I understand that everyone is somebody in boxing and it takes a whole lot of BALLS to go into the ring...but regardless they were not very skillful) but when faced with MAJOR Opposition he clearly struggled! I agree that Duran is ONE of the Greatest but Wilfredo Benitez was pretty bad ass too, and by the time Barrera and Morales are through they may have a top notch in that category too. In general MOST Latino fighters are pretty BAD ASS, but JCC is NOT the greatest!!!

J !
05-24-2005, 08:51 AM
Why do you need to know my top 10 to justify yours?

Anyways, here's my list (i have a saved list somewhere, but i can't find it. however, it's similiar to this):

1. Ray Robinson
2. Ray Leonard
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Mickey Walker
5. Kid Gavilan
6. Emile Griffith
7. Jose Napoles
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Carmen Basilio
10. Barney Ross

Then there are fighters such as Joe Walcott (probably deserves a top 10 rating, but i need to research him some more), Felix Trinidad, Tommy Ryan, Luis Rodriguez, and Kid McCoy that deserve recognition.

cracking list but i dont think you mean joe walcott, he was a heavy bro! ;) :confused:

cple
05-24-2005, 11:29 AM
cracking list but i dont think you mean joe walcott, he was a heavy bro! ;) :confused:

You're referring to Jersey Joe Walcott. I'm speaking of Joe Walcott, the "Barbados Demon", a turn of the century welterweight, whom some historians regard as the greatest 147 pound fighter of all-time.

J !
05-24-2005, 11:38 AM
blimey i stand thoroughly corrected and suitably embarassed, cheers though new name to find out about :boxing:
did think it was strange joe being confused for a welter.

Yogi
05-24-2005, 03:08 PM
blimey i stand thoroughly corrected and suitably embarassed, cheers though new name to find out about :boxing:
did think it was strange joe being confused for a welter.

JPW, here's a very good article on the 'Barbados Demon' if you're interested;

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/walcott.html

J !
05-25-2005, 05:30 AM
thanks gents i did do a bit of reading yesterday and saw he fought the great Joe Gans and won he miust have been useful!!

thanks guys always looking to learn more i must say pre 1900 my knowledge is sketchy at best outside the heavies for sure.

Yogi
05-25-2005, 06:11 AM
JPW, here's an excellant site that has newspaper accounts of most of the most famous fights during that late 1800's/early 1900's era;

www.brooklynpubliclibrary.org/eagle

Very good site for acquainting yourself with the early days of the gloved era, so enjoy.

J !
05-25-2005, 06:23 AM
THANKS YOGI, YOU STAR :cool: :boxing:

IwatchBoxing
05-25-2005, 01:38 PM
THANKS YOGI, YOU STAR :cool: :boxing:
Hey JPW, Trinidad is the #1 All Time Ranked Welterweight on Boxrec, http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36597, you disagree with the list? :D

mosley
05-26-2005, 02:12 AM
Salvador Sanchez. Had he not been killed in a car crash aged 23.

He was already a champion and I believe had he lived he would have been a legend.

But since he didn't then Julio Cesar Chavez.

J !
05-26-2005, 07:14 AM
Hey JPW, Trinidad is the #1 All Time Ranked Welterweight on Boxrec, http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36597, you disagree with the list? :D


yes i do anyone who think trinidad would have lived with either of the sugar rays at the weight knows **** all about **** all. :D :these are computer record only based rankings not rational ones.

it isnt an even playing field for starts if you want ill get the guy who does them a fella called Martin who posts under the name computerrank to explain them if you need to understand all the criteria and why most of the old time boxers dont feature.

but in the meantime what a load of ****. :rolleyes:

J !
05-26-2005, 07:26 AM
steve collins is the best ever super middleweight as well


hahahahahaha NUFF SAID hahahahha
:D :D :D :D

Hunna
05-27-2005, 09:39 AM
not John Ruiz

dsh2005
06-07-2005, 02:02 PM
Eusebio Pedroza

dsh2005
06-07-2005, 02:09 PM
Happy Days Are Here Again People

TONYCASH
06-09-2005, 12:29 AM
what about wilfredo gomez....won 17 title defenses by ko in a row (breaking record) , youngest guy (at that time ) to be a world champion.... :boxing:
you guys took him out of the planet or what?

IwatchBoxing
06-09-2005, 09:02 PM
what about wilfredo gomez....won 17 title defenses by ko in a row (breaking record) , youngest guy (at that time ) to be a world champion.... :boxing:
you guys took him out of the planet or what?
No, its cause he beat 7 Mexicans, than lost to one, making him a nobody, and the Mexican who beat him somebody... see?? ;)

sonofisis
06-09-2005, 11:00 PM
JCC, hands down..

Pico Hollywood
06-22-2005, 01:57 PM
Roberto Duran Reppin south america...

Slipx
06-24-2005, 06:09 AM
chavez.


we wont ever see another fighter like him.

oldwarrior
06-28-2005, 06:54 PM
i'll throw in my two cents and say jcc and duran. can you imagine them both in their primes at 135?

who would win?

old warrior

Pico Hollywood
08-25-2005, 04:05 AM
Manos de Piedra

gloriamichaelc
03-16-2008, 04:30 AM
thats not even a debate! for gods sakes! when duran lost to ray n fight # 2 it was fake! enough of my rapping career.lol. i will go further on duran. the 1980 montreal roberto duran has a outstanding shot at sir robinson at 147. also a peak version of duran at 135 vs a younger version of robinson at 135 duran has a great shot at that robinson also. no one else does. im glad i could help. mikey!

AntonTheMeh
03-16-2008, 01:42 PM
carlos ortiz
duran
arguello
jofre
chavez
sanchez
"gomez was awesome before he was steemrolled by chava"
"tito is a sockem bop em robot"
"camacho in his prime was bonkers"
"benitez was allergic to training"

Sweet Pete
03-18-2008, 09:10 PM
In no particular order, except for Duran as the #1.

Roberto Duran
Carlos Monzon
JC Chavez
Kid Gavilan
Jose Napoles
Carlos Ortiz
Alexis Arguello
Salvador Sanchez
Ricardo Lopez
Miguel Canto
Pascual Perez
Ruben Olivares
Carlos Zarate
Wilfredo Gomez
Tito Trinidad
Oscar De La Hoya
Erik Morales
Marco Antonio Barrera
Panama Al Brown
Manuel Ortiz
Antonio Cervantes
Nicolino Locche
Vicente Saldivar
Kid Chocolate
Wilfred Benitez
Hector Camacho Sr.
Eusebio Pedroza

Notes: Jofre is Brazilian, therefore doesn't count.