View Full Version : Bert Sugar ''Jake Lamotta Is Greater Than Marvin Hagler''


Southpaw16BF
01-24-2010, 03:34 PM
Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Am not fond of Bert's ratings and views. But he is a character. But never lets facts get in the way of a good story!

But what are your thoughts on him saying Lamotta is a greater fighter than Hagler. He rated Lamotta #27 and rating Hagler at #47 in his ATG listings

Does anyone agree tha Lamotta was greater than Hagler. Or do you think's it insane to rank Lamotta higher than Hagler?

TheGreatA
01-24-2010, 03:39 PM
I think it has been well established by now that Bert Sugar's all-time great list is a trainwreck.

Southpaw16BF
01-24-2010, 03:44 PM
I think it has been well established by now that Bert Sugar's all-time great list is a trainwreck.

:D:D

But surely does his opinion count for anything? He claims he has been into boxing for as long as he can remember and his first fight Buddy Baer vs Joe Louis 1. And he has seen all the big fights over the last 35 years live.

And so you think having Lamotta over Hagler is insane?

Southpaw Stinger
01-24-2010, 03:50 PM
I love Lamotta, you all know that. But any fella with half a brain can tell you Hagler > Lamotta

TheGreatA
01-24-2010, 03:57 PM
:D:D

But surely does his opinion count for anything? He claims he has been into boxing for as long as he can remember and his first fight Buddy Baer vs Joe Louis 1. And he has seen all the big fights over the last 35 years live.

And so you think having Lamotta over Hagler is insane?

I'm not saying it's insane but along with this there are about 50 inconsistencies in his ATG list.

You could perhaps argue that LaMotta fought a better bunch of contenders and champions but this is where Hagler's consistency and dominance comes into play. LaMotta just didn't have that.

Toney Loc
01-24-2010, 04:15 PM
The older the better for Bert. He'd suffer a cardiac arrest if he reads some of the NSB threads.

Marciano90s
01-24-2010, 04:23 PM
they both got insane chin and amazing careers...but Jackie is still over Hagler.

Junito-Rulez
01-24-2010, 04:44 PM
Hagler over Lamotta, more honest than this guy who gave away a fight to get money from Frankie Carbo.

TheGreatA
01-24-2010, 04:51 PM
Hagler over Lamotta, more honest than this guy who gave away a fight to get money from Frankie Carbo.

LaMotta was a horrible human being but LaMotta took a dive in order to get a long-deserved title shot, not for money. You think Hagler waited long to get at title shot? LaMotta waited 7 years. This despite being in the top 3 and at times ranked the number 1 all of that time.

Hagler made it in 1977 after knocking off Mike Colbert from the number 1 ranking and was given a title shot in 1979 by Antuofermo.

LaMotta beat Ray Robinson in 1943, quickly making him the number 1 challenger, but Tony Zale elected to go to the army, an understandable decision. However after coming back from the war, he went onto fight Rocky Graziano 3 times despite LaMotta being more highly regarded than Graziano was. Cerdan gave LaMotta a chance when LaMotta was thought to be washed up and an easy opponent.

They were wrong. LaMotta had simply become disinterested in boxing due to all the politics, but when given a chance to fight for the world title he took it and got himself in the shape of his life.

Marciano90s
01-24-2010, 04:51 PM
to get a world championship chance.you couldnt **** with the mafia lol

Southpaw16BF
01-24-2010, 05:15 PM
LaMotta was a horrible human being but LaMotta took a dive in order to get a long-deserved title shot, not for money. You think Hagler waited long to get at title shot? LaMotta waited 7 years. This despite being in the top 3 and at times ranked the number 1 all of that time.
Hagler made it in 1977 after knocking off Mike Colbert from the number 1 ranking and was given a title shot in 1979 by Antuofermo.

LaMotta beat Ray Robinson in 1943, quickly making him the number 1 challenger, but Tony Zale elected to go to the army, an understandable decision. However after coming back from the war, he went onto fight Rocky Graziano 3 times despite LaMotta being more highly regarded than Graziano was. Cerdan gave LaMotta a chance when LaMotta was thought to be washed up and an easy opponent.
They were wrong. LaMotta had simply become disinterested in boxing due to all the politics, but when given a chance to fight for the world title he took it and got himself in the shape of his life.


Lets not forget, there was another fighter just as avoided if not more avoided than Lamotta around this period and era, his name was Charley Burley.

Who some belive Lamotta ducked around this era. How Burley was never given a title shot was a crime.

I have little dout he would of licked Graziano and Zale. And lets also not forget how avoided a peak Holman Williams was, he was once Zale's top ranked contender.

JAB5239
01-24-2010, 05:44 PM
Lets not forget, there was another fighter just as avoided if not more avoided than Lamotta around this period and era, his name was Charley Burley.

Who some belive Lamotta ducked around this era. How Burley was never given a title shot was a crime.


In the book "Charley Burley and the black murderers row" Bert Lytell who did fight Jake made the claim any of the black murderers row would beat him.

I have little dout he would of licked Graziano and Zale. And lets also not forget how avoided a peak Holman Williams was, he was once Zale's top ranked contender.

Funny story in the same book about how Burley knocked out top heavyweight contender Elmer "Violent" Ray cold with one punch when Ray tried to show him up in a sparring session. Doesn't have anything to do with what you posted but I thought some might like to know that little tid bit.

TheGreatA
01-24-2010, 06:05 PM
In the book "Charley Burley and the black murderers row" Bert Lytell who did fight Jake made the claim any of the black murderers row would beat him.


Holman Williams & Bert Lytell didn't. Marshall himself was also rapidly running out of gas at the end of the 10 round bout they had.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4CIcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=G1gEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5606,5480916&dq=lloyd+marshall+lamotta&hl=en

JAB5239
01-24-2010, 06:31 PM
]Holman Williams & Bert Lytell didn't.[/B] Marshall himself was also rapidly running out of gas at the end of the 10 round bout they had.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=4CIcAAAAIBAJ&sjid=G1gEAAAAIBAJ&pg=5606,5480916&dq=lloyd+marshall+lamotta&hl=en

I don't understand what you mean my friend.

TheGreatA
01-24-2010, 08:31 PM
I don't understand what you mean my friend.

I meant that Holman Williams and Bert Lytell didn't beat LaMotta who won decisions over both.

Also I mistakenly read that it was Lloyd Marshall saying that, so I added that Marshall didn't exactly have an easy time with LaMotta who was coming on strong at the end of their 10 round fight.

JAB5239
01-24-2010, 08:57 PM
I meant that Holman Williams and Bert Lytell didn't beat LaMotta who won decisions over both.

Also I mistakenly read that it was Lloyd Marshall saying that, so I added that Marshall didn't exactly have an easy time with LaMotta who was coming on strong at the end of their 10 round fight.

Maybe it was Marshall who said it, as I am going by memory. I'll pull out the book and see if I can find the exact reference.

Joey Giardello
01-24-2010, 09:18 PM
Funny story in the same book about how Burley knocked out top heavyweight contender Elmer "Violent" Ray cold with one punch when Ray tried to show him up in a sparring session. Doesn't have anything to do with what you posted but I thought some might like to know that little tid bit.

I am thinking about geting that book, is it worth a read? elmer ray was a huge puncher himself, just shows how good burley was knocking out heavyweight contenders! could you imagine shane mosley knocking out heavyweight contender tomasz adamek, i dont think so

JAB5239
01-24-2010, 09:32 PM
I am thinking about geting that book, is it worth a read? elmer ray was a huge puncher himself, just shows how good burley was knocking out heavyweight contenders! could you imagine shane mosley knocking out heavyweight contender tomasz adamek, i dont think so

Yeah, I think so. Its given me a lot of insight about how hard it really was for black fighters of that era. Its also educated me as to how good many of those fighters were that get passed off as average today because of their records.

DeepSleep
01-25-2010, 01:59 AM
Just wanted to get your thoughts on this. Am not fond of Bert's ratings and views. But he is a character. But never lets facts get in the way of a good story!

But what are your thoughts on him saying Lamotta is a greater fighter than Hagler. He rated Lamotta #27 and rating Hagler at #47 in his ATG listings

Does anyone agree tha Lamotta was greater than Hagler. Or do you think's it insane to rank Lamotta higher than Hagler?

I don't think Bert Sugar's ATG list has much merit to it as just a quick glance at it had me quite puzzled. I'm afraid Sugar injects abit to much opinion into his statements. I think it is pretty wild to rate Hagler below LaMotta, still I wouldn't expect anything less from Bert Sugar. According to Bert Sugar there is a direct correlation between a fighter’s greatness and how old he is… Based on his breakdowns of how he thinks fights will go I'm guessing he has no boxing background because some of the things he says contradict very basic boxing fundamentals. What aggravates me is given how many fights he has seen how he can be so inaccurate in his breakdowns and predictions. I nearly had a laugh attack when he wrote that it was imperative that Calzaghe circle to his left against Hopkins...

PS: I'm surprised donkim hasn't entered the conversation and proclaimed that Hagler is overrated and was beaten by a coke-head washed up welterweight SRL yet...

phallus
01-25-2010, 11:22 PM
I'm not saying it's insane but along with this there are about 50 inconsistencies in his ATG list.

You could perhaps argue that LaMotta fought a better bunch of contenders and champions but this is where Hagler's consistency and dominance comes into play. LaMotta just didn't have that.

i think sugar rates lamotta so high because he moved up in weight and hagler didn't, and lamotta fought some better competition but that's because he was born in the right time when SRR was prime and the pros had deeper divisions. i agree though, hagler is way more consistent than lamotta

sonnyboyx2
01-26-2010, 02:20 AM
LaMotta was a horrible human being but LaMotta took a dive in order to get a long-deserved title shot, not for money. You think Hagler waited long to get at title shot? LaMotta waited 7 years. This despite being in the top 3 and at times ranked the number 1 all of that time.

Hagler made it in 1977 after knocking off Mike Colbert from the number 1 ranking and was given a title shot in 1979 by Antuofermo.

LaMotta beat Ray Robinson in 1943, quickly making him the number 1 challenger, but Tony Zale elected to go to the army, an understandable decision. However after coming back from the war, he went onto fight Rocky Graziano 3 times despite LaMotta being more highly regarded than Graziano was. Cerdan gave LaMotta a chance when LaMotta was thought to be washed up and an easy opponent.

They were wrong. LaMotta had simply become disinterested in boxing due to all the politics, but when given a chance to fight for the world title he took it and got himself in the shape of his life.

LaMotta was a very fortunate winner against Cerdan and a huge outsider in the betting 6/1 dog... Jake wrestled Cerdan to the floor in the opening round where Cerdan injured his left shoulder, he retired on his stood at the end of the 10th due to the pain... would LaMotta have beaten Cerdan in their rematch?

donkim
01-26-2010, 04:12 AM
PS: I'm surprised donkim hasn't entered the conversation and proclaimed that Hagler is overrated and was beaten by a coke-head washed up welterweight SRL yet...



Why would you bring me up in a topic that isn't even related to myself?

When I have users such as yourself quoting me in such an off topic manner,I really have no need to make my presence felt...................but since your such a big fan.....I did anyway.