Okay, time to put up something controversial.

I really can't understand why anybody believes any of the bull**** spewed by the U.S. military or the gov't. They're lying to you to further their own selfish goals, people.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7727612/

Army withheld details on Tillman’s death

Investigator quickly learned ‘friendly fire’ was responsible

The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.

A new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John P. Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.

Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a large boulder during a twilight firefight along a narrow canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2,000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained by The Washington Post.

The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it.

Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones prepared the report in response to questions from Tillman's family and from Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz). Jones concluded that there was no official reluctance to report the truth but that "nothing has contributed more to an atmosphere of suspicion by the family than the failure to tell the family that Cpl. Pat Tillman's death was the result of suspected friendly fire, as soon as that information became known within military channels."

"Notifying families in a timely way that they have had a loved one killed or severely injured is complex and imperfect work. We can do better," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman. "At the heart of every notification effort is a commitment to compassion and completeness in providing information as it is known to those who sustained the loss. That is what happened in the case of Corporal Tillman, and that effort continues to this day."


‘No idea where they were’

In interviews with Jones, soldiers who were with Tillman when he died said they immediately reported that other Rangers, riding in a Humvee, emptied their weapons at his position on a hill without first identifying whom they were shooting. Perceiving they were in a heated firefight, the soldiers rounded a corner and used several high-powered weapons to kill an Afghan Militia Force soldier working with the Rangers before pausing and turning their guns on Tillman. About 65 meters away, Tillman had been waving his arms and throwing a smoke grenade to signal his unit that he was not an enemy fighter.

Jones reported that "some soldiers lost situational awareness to the point they had no idea where they were."

Tillman's death was an enormous blow to the image of the Army and the Special Forces because of his storybook personal narrative. Tillman turned down a multimillion-dollar football contract with the Arizona Cardinals to enlist in the Army after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. He and his brother joined the elite Army Rangers and deployed to Iraq and later Afghanistan, hunting the Taliban and al Qaeda through mountainous terrain.

While parts of the unit's mission were classified -- one of six volumes of Jones's report contains entirely classified material -- Jones found that the operation on April 22, 2004, was a routine "confirm or deny" trip to determine whether enemy combatants were in the town of Manah. Commanders did not think hostile forces were in Manah, the report said, but an order to hurry up and get troops on the ground there before dusk was passed on because "we were trying to get them back and save them for the next part of the fight," an unnamed officer said in redacted documents.


Followed team leader

Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken Humvee. Tillman's half went ahead toward the town. When the second half of the platoon followed through the canyon, it reportedly came under enemy fire. Tillman grabbed another Ranger and the Afghan soldier and got into position to lend fire support. When the second half of the platoon rounded a corner, they mistook the trio as foes.

In the documents, the soldiers who fired on Tillman cite many reasons for the confusion: The sun was going down and lighting conditions were bad; soldiers shot where they saw muzzle flashes but did not appropriately determine a target; they shot in the same direction as their team leader, assuming that he was firing at the enemy.

"I've replayed the events of that day and my actions in response to the events in my mind countless times . . . given the same circumstances and having the same information I had, I would do the same thing," one soldier wrote in response to his punishment, which was getting kicked out of the Rangers. "I engaged men that I believed to be the enemy with the intent of killing them."

This isn't a new story, is it?

I remember hearing a long time ago that it was friendly fire that killed him.

The government or the army lying? No ****...

Pat Tillman is no more a hero than anyone else. This whole "he gave up millions" bull**** is irrelevant.

Pat Tillman wanted to play G.I. Joe. He signed up to be a hired killer for our government. And, as happens in war, sometimes Joe gets killed himself.

This isn't a new story, is it?

I remember hearing a long time ago that it was friendly fire that killed him.


This is more concrete evidence that it's true, and that senior officials knew early on what was going on.

Sometimes people won't believe the obvious unless you throw document after document in their face, so these are a few more.

Pat Tillman's death cover-up is small-time compared to the Waco, Oklahoma City, and both WTC bombing cover-ups...

GIR-R-DONE!!!! there are going to be more incidents like this. and this is not the only one to have happened. it happens more than people think. this one is just in the public eye because of tillman. which shouldn't really make a **** because he is just another human. msnbc, being the lefties they are, are trying to exploit a soldiers death for thier own profit.

....How he died is irrelevent!!! He was a true American patriot who did it for the love of his country and not for fame, fortune, or any other self serving reasons. Without guys like him defending our country for years, whiners like Neils wouldn't even be around to ***** and complain about everything. And yeah, this is way old news!!!

Where you been, pbds? #6? I'm surprised it took you so long.

By the way, if you believe the hijacker hype, it was Saudi Arabians, not Afghanis who attacked us. So blowing some rubble around Afghanistan is hardly "defending our country"...(this is where I would insert a smilie if I did that sort of thing)

....How he died is irrelevent!!! He was a true American patriot who did it for the love of his country and not for fame, fortune, or any other self serving reasons. Without guys like him defending our country for years, whiners like Neils wouldn't even be around to ***** and complain about everything. And yeah, this is way old news!!!

I am not trying to criticize Tillman, and I believe that his intentions were honourable. And I am not criticizing the soldiers on the ground. The problem is that the authorities (military officers and the gov't) are exploiting people like this for their own gains. You think they care what happens to most soldiers? They don't. If they did, they wouldn't be putting all the blame for what happened at Abu Greb on them, for example. Hell, they wouldn't have sent them into Iraq in the first place without a sound strategy to get them out.

It's not old news because new evidence is coming out that senior officers knew about what was going on early on. Why these people always seem to escape blame is beyond me.

GIR-R-DONE!!!! there are going to be more incidents like this. and this is not the only one to have happened. it happens more than people think. this one is just in the public eye because of tillman. which shouldn't really make a **** because he is just another human. msnbc, being the lefties they are, are trying to exploit a soldiers death for thier own profit.

And people think liberals have crazy conspiracy theories :confused:

And people think liberals have crazy conspiracy theories :confused:

yeah neils proved it in his previous for me.

http://www.nanticokepa.com/nra.jpg

Just renewed my membership last week. Damn it feels good to be an American.

yeah neils proved it in his previous for me.

Well, I don't necessarily believe everything he's saying. If msnbc is exploiting Tillman's death, it's not because they're left-wing. You're saying that the right-wing media didn't exploit 9-11 to push its own agenda?

http://www.nanticokepa.com/nra.jpg

Just renewed my membership last week. Damn it feels good to be an American.

haha it's a cool logo, I'll give you that. Is that a badge you can sew onto your clothes, like in the boy scouts?

http://www.nanticokepa.com/nra.jpg

Just renewed my membership last week. Damn it feels good to be an American.

Now how can a convicted violent felon legally own weapons?

Now how can a convicted violent felon legally own weapons?


quiet neils. You might get me in trouble with the law. And it was a joke.

I am not a member of the ****ing N.R.A. man.

I just posted that to piss you guys off.

Now how can a convicted violent felon legally own weapons?

its possible. i have a friend that has several and he is a convicted felon. i have a few myself...but i ain't no felon.

quiet neils. You might get me in trouble with the law. And it was a joke.

I am not a member of the ****ing N.R.A. man.

I'm part of an Internet watch group, as inspired by the Patriot Act. your username has been reported. later your IP address will be exposed, your real name and address given to the feds, and some government agents will be at your house to disuss your threat to national security.

I'm part of an Internet watch group, as inspired by the Patriot Act. your username has been reported. later your IP address will be exposed, your real name and address given to the feds, and some government agents will be at your house to disuss your threat to national security.

LMFAO!

Wait. I have to get the door.

....At least this thread will generate a little excitement in the lounge.

quiet neils. You might get me in trouble with the law. And it was a joke.

I am not a member of the ****ing N.R.A. man.

I just posted that to piss you guys off.

Okay, I'm pissed off...real pissed off :mad: :burnup: .

btw, since you listed weapons in your 5 favourite things, I think that I just assumed that you were a member.

Actually, posting an NRA logo doesn't piss me off. The whole perception of the NRA folks, with Charlton Heston the jack-off with a small dick doing his 'cold dead hands' bit to the delight of rednecks everywhere, turns me off, but - even though you guys love to tag me as a 'liberal' (which would be incorrect), I am definitely in favor of the right to own weapons...

its possible. i have a friend that has several and he is a convicted felon. i have a few myself...but i ain't no felon.


You can not own a gun, vote, or hold public office as a convicted felon freecloud.

You can not own a gun, vote, or hold public office as a convicted felon freecloud.

That's why I threw in the word 'legally'...

Actually, posting an NRA logo doesn't piss me off. The whole perception of the NRA folks, with Charlton Heston the jack-off with a small dick doing his 'cold dead hands' bit to the delight of rednecks everywhere, turns me off, but - even though you guys love to tag me as a 'liberal' (which would be incorrect), I am definitely in favor of the right to own weapons...

Neils..............I dont. I know about all of that: believe it or not. And I dont agree with Heston's attitude, considering he is extremely right wing. I am not as conservative as you think....and all of my "American pride" displayed in the past...was merely in support of our military.

I do not support the N.R.A. But I am in favor of people owning weapons.

....At least this thread will generate a little excitement in the lounge.

That's what I was hoping for...seems like people get along too well now though. I mean, I guess the people that were real sensitive probably marched off in a huff after all the controversial threads that were going on a while back. The people that are left are all pretty tolerant.

That's what I was hoping for...seems like people get along too well now though. I mean, I guess the people that were real sensitive probably marched off in a huff after all the controversial threads that were going on a while back. The people that are left are all pretty tolerant.

hey where are you from? its really just a curiousity. are you canadian? perhaps french canadian?

hey where are you from? its really just a curiousity. are you canadian? perhaps french canadian?

I'm Canadian, though definitely NOT French Canadian.

My wife is American, and I've spent a bit of time down there. I'm not trying to say this gives me "cred" or something, but I'm not an ignorant dip**** either when it comes to these issues.

btw, since you listed weapons in your 5 favourite things, I think that I just assumed that you were a member.

I went to state prison for carrying a concealed weapon. I have done time in federal prison as well, for violation of ordinances.

I went to state prison for carrying a concealed weapon.

Damn, I imagine that must have been pretty rough.

Damn, I imagine that must have been pretty rough.

I made friends. It would get boring as hell though. I would save up all my money people would send me.....and spend it in the commisary. Buying Coffee, snacks etc. More boring than rough...because I got along with everyone. Everyone except this one indian guy named Clark. He was a ****ing dumbass. Always trying to pick fights with people.

One time....when I was new to the unit. He told me to clean the tables in the mess hall....when it was his job. I told him to eat a dick, and we started arguing. He got thrown in violent detention for taking swings at me, and I was roaming around. When he got out...he was pissed and would yell random **** at me whenever we were playing basketball.

I ignored him, and that was that. Did my year, and I was out.

I'm Canadian, though definitely NOT French Canadian.

My wife is American, and I've spent a bit of time down there. I'm not trying to say this gives me "cred" or something, but I'm not an ignorant dip**** either when it comes to these issues.

in now way am i saying anything bad about you. like i said i was just curious. what part of canada?

I made friends. It would get boring as hell though. I would save up all my money people would send me.....and spend it in the commisary. Buying Coffee, snacks etc. More boring than rough...because I got along with everyone. Everyone except this one indian guy named Clark. He was a ****ing dumbass. Always trying to pick fights with people.

One time....when I was new to the unit. He told me to clean the tables in the mess hall....when it was his job. I told him to eat a dick, and we started arguing. He got thrown in violent detention for taking swings at me, and I was roaming around. When he got out...he was pissed and would yell random **** at me whenever we were playing basketball.

I ignored him, and that was that. Did my year, and I was out.

Well, I guess boredom is better than it being violent, though I imagine that would get pretty annoying after a while. A year's a hell of a long time, though I guess there are a lot of people that are in for longer. It must be good to get out after all that time.

in now way am i saying anything bad about you. like i said i was just curious. what part of canada?

Oh yeah, well I just wanted to defend myself from anyone's attacks :cool: .

I was born in southern Ontario but have spent most of my life in Ottawa, the capital. I went to school in Montreal which was awesome, and would like to settle down eventually in Vancouver. My wife and I went there a couple of months ago and the place is just amazing.

Ottawa's okay...better than a lot of cities in the country. I like living in a city, which can be tough up here cause the place is so small, at least in terms of population.

Well, I guess boredom is better than it being violent, though I imagine that would get pretty annoying after a while. A year's a hell of a long time, though I guess there are a lot of people that are in for longer. It must be good to get out after all that time.

There was one guy.....a trucker everyone called oreo. I forgot his real name, he was 42 but he had been there in and out since he was 17. He got caught transporting a truckload of cigarettes that he was going to sell at black market value.....obviously stolen. He had a drug problem, and violated his parole several times. Guy had no teeth....probably from smoking too much crack. He was really smart though: always reading kurt vonnegut books....and that was the first time I read slaughterhouse-five. pretty good book, it got annoying after a while when he would stay up late...and read out loud to his friends, because I could not sleep.

And yes. It felt really good to eat real food, get laid, and not be rudely awakened by the guards in a shakedown.

There was one guy.....a trucker everyone called oreo. I forgot his real name, he was 42 but he had been there in and out since he was 17. He got caught transporting a truckload of cigarettes that he was going to sell at black market value.....obviously stolen. He had a drug problem, and violated his parole several times. Guy had no teeth....probably from smoking too much crack. He was really smart though: always reading kurt vonnegut books....and that was the first time I read slaughterhouse-five. pretty good book, it got annoying after a while when he would stay up late...and read out loud to his friends, because I could not sleep.

And yes. It felt really good to eat real food, get laid, and not be rudely awakened by the guards in a shakedown.

Slaughterhouse-five was the first book I read that wasn't just because I wasn't forced to for school. I mean, I still had to read it for school, but I enjoyed it enough that I started reading all of Vonnegut's other books. This was in my last year of high school. Before that, I didn't read a damn thing. I've read all of his novels except one now but Don DeLillo eventually became my favourite author.

Of course they lied about Pat Tillman. I am not quite sure if there is actually any less credible source of information than the US government and US media. They lie about absolutely everything all the time. Rumsfeld especially does not even pretend to be serious about the **** he expouses, you can see that little smirk on his face when he is doing his little press conferences and ****.

Okay, time to put up something controversial.

I really can't understand why anybody believes any of the bull**** spewed by the U.S. military or the gov't. They're lying to you to further their own selfish goals, people.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7727612/

Army withheld details on Tillman’s death

Investigator quickly learned ‘friendly fire’ was responsible

The first Army investigator who looked into the death of former NFL player Pat Tillman in Afghanistan last year found within days that he was killed by his fellow Rangers in an act of "gross negligence," but Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after a nationally televised memorial service.

A new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John P. Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service.

Soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets as he took shelter behind a large boulder during a twilight firefight along a narrow canyon road near the Pakistani border, according to nearly 2,000 pages of interview transcripts and investigative reports obtained by The Washington Post.

The documents also show that officers made erroneous initial reports that Tillman was killed by enemy fire, destroyed critical evidence and initially concealed the truth from Tillman's brother, also an Army Ranger, who was near the attack on April 22, 2004, but did not witness it.

Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones prepared the report in response to questions from Tillman's family and from Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz). Jones concluded that there was no official reluctance to report the truth but that "nothing has contributed more to an atmosphere of suspicion by the family than the failure to tell the family that Cpl. Pat Tillman's death was the result of suspected friendly fire, as soon as that information became known within military channels."

"Notifying families in a timely way that they have had a loved one killed or severely injured is complex and imperfect work. We can do better," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman. "At the heart of every notification effort is a commitment to compassion and completeness in providing information as it is known to those who sustained the loss. That is what happened in the case of Corporal Tillman, and that effort continues to this day."


‘No idea where they were’

In interviews with Jones, soldiers who were with Tillman when he died said they immediately reported that other Rangers, riding in a Humvee, emptied their weapons at his position on a hill without first identifying whom they were shooting. Perceiving they were in a heated firefight, the soldiers rounded a corner and used several high-powered weapons to kill an Afghan Militia Force soldier working with the Rangers before pausing and turning their guns on Tillman. About 65 meters away, Tillman had been waving his arms and throwing a smoke grenade to signal his unit that he was not an enemy fighter.

Jones reported that "some soldiers lost situational awareness to the point they had no idea where they were."

Tillman's death was an enormous blow to the image of the Army and the Special Forces because of his storybook personal narrative. Tillman turned down a multimillion-dollar football contract with the Arizona Cardinals to enlist in the Army after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. He and his brother joined the elite Army Rangers and deployed to Iraq and later Afghanistan, hunting the Taliban and al Qaeda through mountainous terrain.

While parts of the unit's mission were classified -- one of six volumes of Jones's report contains entirely classified material -- Jones found that the operation on April 22, 2004, was a routine "confirm or deny" trip to determine whether enemy combatants were in the town of Manah. Commanders did not think hostile forces were in Manah, the report said, but an order to hurry up and get troops on the ground there before dusk was passed on because "we were trying to get them back and save them for the next part of the fight," an unnamed officer said in redacted documents.


Followed team leader

Tillman's platoon had to split up because of a broken Humvee. Tillman's half went ahead toward the town. When the second half of the platoon followed through the canyon, it reportedly came under enemy fire. Tillman grabbed another Ranger and the Afghan soldier and got into position to lend fire support. When the second half of the platoon rounded a corner, they mistook the trio as foes.

In the documents, the soldiers who fired on Tillman cite many reasons for the confusion: The sun was going down and lighting conditions were bad; soldiers shot where they saw muzzle flashes but did not appropriately determine a target; they shot in the same direction as their team leader, assuming that he was firing at the enemy.

"I've replayed the events of that day and my actions in response to the events in my mind countless times . . . given the same circumstances and having the same information I had, I would do the same thing," one soldier wrote in response to his punishment, which was getting kicked out of the Rangers. "I engaged men that I believed to be the enemy with the intent of killing them."
What do you expect, friendly fire deaths will always happen. I bet there were many more victims of friendly fire than we know of. this Tillman guy was just sort of famous so the media jumped on his case. This is just another note that whilst American army is the best equipped srmy in the world it certainly not the best prepared. But I am not in a position to judge this case. I was not there nor I am a military combat officer.

They lie about absolutely everything all the time..

As a citizen of the United States of America....its better to be left in the dark about some things. Especially Terrorism, casualties, extra-terrestrials etc.

You ever heard the saying: "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing"? It holds true. Every junior conspiracy theorist will wreak havok on society with the slightest bit.

Another reason why I am against "Homeland Security". LOL.

As a citizen of the United States of America....its better to be left in the dark about some things. Especially Terrorism, casualties, extra-terrestrials etc.

You ever heard the saying: "a little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing"? It holds true. Every junior conspiracy theorist will wreak havok on society with the slightest bit.

Another reason why I am against "Homeland Security". LOL.

I dont entirely agree with that philosphy, to accept the fact that the government lies to everybody all the time its fine, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I dont entirely agree with that philosphy, to accept the fact that the government lies to everybody all the time its fine, and there is nothing wrong with that.

I see his point but I don't agree when so many people are suffering because of it. There's a difference between covering something up for the good of the people and covering it up because you are exploiting people and don't want them to realize it.

I know that this Tillman thing is just about one person, but it shows you the propaganda campaign being waged by the government and the military over what they are doing right now. They are shoving phoney patriotism down people's throats to get them to do things that they wouldn't if they knew the truth.

I know im getting into this one late and because of that didnt read all the posts, so forgive me if I say something that has been said before...


This **** with Tillman is just like what they did when that girl soldier was taken hostage in that ambush at the beginning of the war. I remember the army coming out saying how she shot at all her would be captors and fought heroicially and all this bull**** to make her sound like a hero, then we find out she didnt do a god damn thing.
Also, when they rescued her they taped it and made it look like it was some herioc rescue, then we find out that she was just sitting in a hospital room alone and they didnt even take on enemy fire during the rescue. Typical PR bull**** from the US government.

Oh yeah, well I just wanted to defend myself from anyone's attacks :cool: .

I was born in southern Ontario but have spent most of my life in Ottawa, the capital. I went to school in Montreal which was awesome, and would like to settle down eventually in Vancouver. My wife and I went there a couple of months ago and the place is just amazing.

Ottawa's okay...better than a lot of cities in the country. I like living in a city, which can be tough up here cause the place is so small, at least in terms of population.


i have a friend, sebastian, that lives in montreal. he is french canadian and is a really cool guy. he got deported from the u.s. for assaulting his girl. she is still a very close friend of mine. they are still friends as well. i went to visit him in montreal and thought it was really cool. i just don't see how you guys deal with the winter weather.

I dont entirely agree with that philosphy, to accept the fact that the government lies to everybody all the time its fine, and there is nothing wrong with that.

Although,I don't agree with the government lying, ordinary citizens should not be privy to that type of information.

I know that this Tillman thing is just about one person, but it shows you the propaganda campaign being waged by the government and the military over what they are doing right now. They are shoving phoney patriotism down people's throats to get them to do things that they wouldn't if they knew the truth.

I agree their motives in their lies are hardly noble at all. When they lie constantly like that its total disrespect to the people they expouse to represent. But the main point is how the whole Tillman thing was totally exploited just for propaganda purposes.

I see his point but I don't agree when so many people are suffering because of it. There's a difference between covering something up for the good of the people and covering it up because you are exploiting people and don't want them to realize it.

I know that this Tillman thing is just about one person, but it shows you the propaganda campaign being waged by the government and the military over what they are doing right now. They are shoving phoney patriotism down people's throats to get them to do things that they wouldn't if they knew the truth.

What is so unpatriotic about removing a brutal dictator from power?

i have a friend, sebastian, that lives in montreal. he is french canadian and is a really cool guy. he got deported from the u.s. for assaulting his girl. she is still a very close friend of mine. they are still friends as well. i went to visit him in montreal and thought it was really cool. i just don't see how you guys deal with the winter weather.

I like Quebec, but a lot of people have a problem with it, which is why I was covering my ass earlier. Montreal's a great city though it's tough to find work there if you're an outsider...what I mean is that you need connections in town usually to get a job. Since I was a student it was that much tougher.

The winters are brutal but out west they aren't so bad, which is another good reason to move there. I kind of like it when it's like 40 below though cause it feels like a challenge to drag yourself outside and go somewhere so when you do you feel like you've really accomplished something...maybe that's just my delusional way of dealing with it :cool: .

feck all that. everyone claims to know the truth behind what is really going on. why we are there. what really happened. when in actuallity none of us know ****. you are only made "privy" to the things that the gov't wants you to be. sure there are leaks. but what most of us see is what the media wants us to see. and it depends on which media channel you choose. they are all biased and paid by certain political parties. so the end result is that we really don't know what the hell we are talking about and thats just the way the gov't wants it. we can all scream our propiganda but it really doesn't matter. you, me, everyone. we are all wrong.

What is so unpatriotic about removing a brutal dictator from power?

First of all, there are countless brutal dictators out there that the U.S. is doing **** about, so don't think this war was about that. It was about reasons that have more to do with economic interests and imperial dominance. Looks like the propaganda they spread about justifying the war is working though, based on your comments.

I like Quebec, but a lot of people have a problem with it, which is why I was covering my ass earlier. Montreal's a great city though it's tough to find work there if you're an outsider...what I mean is that you need connections in town usually to get a job. Since I was a student it was that much tougher.

The winters are brutal but out west they aren't so bad, which is another good reason to move there. I kind of like it when it's like 40 below though cause it feels like a challenge to drag yourself outside and go somewhere so when you do you feel like you've really accomplished something...maybe that's just my delusional way of dealing with it :cool: .


lol thats too funny. i am freezing when it hit 40 here. anything lower and i don't move. whats wrong with quebec? why do people have a problem with it?

feck all that. everyone claims to know the truth behind what is really going on. why we are there. what really happened. when in actuallity none of us know ****. you are only made "privy" to the things that the gov't wants you to be. sure there are leaks. but what most of us see is what the media wants us to see. and it depends on which media channel you choose. they are all biased and paid by certain political parties. so the end result is that we really don't know what the hell we are talking about and thats just the way the gov't wants it. we can all scream our propiganda but it really doesn't matter. you, me, everyone. we are all wrong.

Can't see I disagree with that. Democracy makes people think that we can change things...most of the time we can't.

First of all, there are countless brutal dictators out there that the U.S. is doing **** about, so don't think this war was about that. It was about reasons that have more to do with economic interests and imperial dominance. Looks like the propaganda they spread about justifying the war is working though, based on your comments.

yes and as you can see our economy has been doing so great since the imperialist takeover of iraq. our fuel prices have dropped really low. inflation? what inflation? the cost of living had to have dropped like 50%

lol thats too funny. i am freezing when it hit 40 here. anything lower and i don't move. whats wrong with quebec? why do people have a problem with it?

There's been a large contingent there for years that has been trying to pull the province out of the country so they can make a country of their own. Obviously this irks people who are against it but it's really developed into full-blown racism against French people, imo. The thing is that a lot of French people judge English people just as harshly. It's a pretty sensitive issue.

The separatists have been in power in the province a number of times and have enacted some pretty strange laws. For a while you were restricted to putting up signs at stores in French only. Now English is allowed, but only if it's half the size of the French. The thing is that Montreal used to be the economic centre of the country but most companies moved to Toronto when they got scared off.

Thing is people don't realize that there are separatist issues like this all over the world. It's not that big a deal. I understand the separatist cause but I don't agree with them because I don't think it would really help the situation. So you get your own country. What would you do then? Seems like nothing much will have changed except that a lot of people will be pissed off and things will be a lot more complicated.

I know im getting into this one late and because of that didnt read all the posts, so forgive me if I say something that has been said before...


This **** with Tillman is just like what they did when that girl soldier was taken hostage in that ambush at the beginning of the war. I remember the army coming out saying how she shot at all her would be captors and fought heroicially and all this bull**** to make her sound like a hero, then we find out she didnt do a god damn thing.
Also, when they rescued her they taped it and made it look like it was some herioc rescue, then we find out that she was just sitting in a hospital room alone and they didnt even take on enemy fire during the rescue. Typical PR bull**** from the US government.

Exactly, and you have to wonder why they have to make up stories like this. Thing is they have to sugar-coat a war that was fought on unjustifiable grounds, and convince the people that something noble is being done.

There's been a large contingent there for years that has been trying to pull the province out of the country so they can make a country of their own. Obviously this irks people who are against it but it's really developed into full-blown racism against French people, imo. The thing is that a lot of French people judge English people just as harshly. It's a pretty sensitive issue.

The separatists have been in power in the province a number of times and have enacted some pretty strange laws. For a while you were restricted to putting up signs at stores in French only. Now English is allowed, but only if it's half the size of the French. The thing is that Montreal used to be the economic centre of the country but most companies moved to Toronto when they got scared off.

Thing is people don't realize that there are separatist issues like this all over the world. It's not that big a deal. I understand the separatist cause but I don't agree with them because I don't think it would really help the situation. So you get your own country. What would you do then? Seems like nothing much will have changed except that a lot of people will be pissed off and things will be a lot more complicated.


hmm would they be protected by the rest of canada? i could jut see it now. they gain independance and straight away its taken over by terrorists.oh waitthats right. the US would have to protect them for sure.

hmm would they be protected by the rest of canada? i could jut see it now. they gain independance and straight away its taken over by terrorists.oh waitthats right. the US would have to protect them for sure.

Hell, you might not be far from the truth. I really think that the U.S. would not allow this to happen. They think Canada's bad enough, I can't imagine how they would feel about a socialist-leaning french country on their borders.

Thing is that I just think the separatists are unrealistic, but if someone is a separatist that's all right with me. A lot of people here don't feel the same way, though.

Can't see I disagree with that. Democracy makes people think that we can change things...most of the time we can't.


exactly my point. people get so worked up like its gonna change something.

Exactly, and you have to wonder why they have to make up stories like this. Thing is they have to sugar-coat a war that was fought on unjustifiable grounds, and convince the people that something noble is being done.


now look here! i voted for bush and still would. but i know that we went to iraq for more reasons than i could ever imagine. myu thing is i think it was more personal with dubya. he wanted to get sadam for puting a price on his 'ol pappys head. but there were several other reasons. like i said i don't know ****

Hell, you might not be far from the truth. I really think that the U.S. would not allow this to happen. They think Canada's bad enough, I can't imagine how they would feel about a socialist-leaning french country on their borders.

Thing is that I just think the separatists are unrealistic, but if someone is a separatist that's all right with me. A lot of people here don't feel the same way, though.

yeah that sounds like a very hard situation to deal with. good thing you are in NS. whats it like there?

First of all, there are countless brutal dictators out there that the U.S. is doing **** about, so don't think this war was about that. It was about reasons that have more to do with economic interests and imperial dominance. Looks like the propaganda they spread about justifying the war is working though, based on your comments.

Wow!! Another conspiracy theorist. Why don't you just leave this country Mr. KNOW-IT-ALL.

Wow!! Another conspiracy theorist. Why don't you just leave this country Mr. KNOW-IT-ALL.

Okay, I'm outta here!

Seriously, though, I'm sure that the powers-that-be are glad that there are people like you that believe whatever they say, and consider those that disagree with them to be conspiracy theorists. Makes it easier to get you to do their bidding. Good luck with that.

yeah that sounds like a very hard situation to deal with. good thing you are in NS. whats it like there?

NS? Not sure what you mean. Sorry, it's late in the day so I'm a bit dim at the moment.

NS? Not sure what you mean. Sorry, it's late in the day so I'm a bit dim at the moment.

my bad i meant ontario.

Okay, I'm outta here!

Seriously, though, I'm sure that the powers-that-be are glad that there are people like you that believe whatever they say, and consider those that disagree with them to be conspiracy theorists. Makes it easier to get you to do their bidding. Good luck with that.

Your case would be more credible it you presented evidence to support your argument. Everyone is so quick to assume that the government is corrupt, but yet they accept their hand-outs. All governments are corrupt, even your precious Canadian government so you can cry about this as much as you want, but you're beating a dead horse. No one's listening.

What is so unpatriotic about removing a brutal dictator from power?
Well, when they had the Brutal Dictator at power, they did not have terrorist acts that took lifes of like 50 people every single day. Just watch CNN, these poor people get blown up like every single day.

Well, when they had the Brutal Dictator at power, they did not have terrorist acts that took lifes of like 50 people every single day. Just watch CNN, these poor people get blown up like every single day.

Yeah you're right there weren't 50 people dying everyday, there were several thousand innocent women and children dying everyday.

Wow!! Another conspiracy theorist. Why don't you just leave this country Mr. KNOW-IT-ALL.

That's not a conspiracy; that's pretty much common knowledge at this point, dude.

You want to hear conspiracies, you need to dig back in my post history from about October...

Yeah you're right there weren't 50 people dying everyday, there were several thousand innocent women and children dying everyday.
If that is true than Iraq musta been empty country for years.
But last time I heard there were about 40 mil people.
But you got me all wrong, I could not care less about Iraqi people, the only people that I care about are Americans that die there. You know that old saying "you got the government that you deserve". It applies to iraq very much. Oh and dont start this "women and children" stuff, hell yeah Sadam was bad, but civil war for next 20 years and absolutely no economical or industrial future( everything that even has a slight relation to economics or industry been destroyed by proud members of US military). Just think about all these women and children that will day of starvation or in terrorist attacks.

Oh and BTW when they had dictatorship thay had water and electricity, thay had schools and operational hospitals. Guess what these people got now. Civil War.

If that is true than Iraq musta been empty country for years.
But last time I heard there were about 40 mil people.
But you got me all wrong, I could not care less about Iraqi people, the only people that I care about are Americans that die there. You know that old saying "you got the government that you deserve". It applies to iraq very much. Oh and dont start this "women and children" stuff, hell yeah Sadam was bad, but civil war for next 20 years and absolutely no economical or industrial future( everything that even has a slight relation to economics or industry been destroyed by proud members of US military). Just think about all these women and children that will day of starvation or in terrorist attacks.

You've been watching too much MSNBC dude. You have no clue of what you're talking about. I've been there. You have no idea of what is going on.

You've been watching too much MSNBC dude. You have no clue of what you're talking about. I've been there. You have no idea of what is going on.
Is that the best you can do? :cool:

Is that the best you can do? :cool:

Yeah, I ignore ignorance. I'm not taking you seriously, so continue on with your gibberish.

Oh and BTW when they had dictatorship thay had water and electricity, thay had schools and operational hospitals. Guess what these people got now. Civil War.

they still have all that stuff plus a civil war.

they still have all that stuff plus a civil war.
I know for a fact that schools in iraq still dont work. Heard it from a guy in my college who was there recently.

I know for a fact that schools in iraq still dont work. Heard it from a guy in my college who was there recently.

Thing is that it was an artificial state to begin with. It's made up of three groups that despise each other. Why on Earth did the U.S. gov't think that the people there would spontaneously come together after the removed Saddam? I mean, anyone with half a brain could have told them this would happen.

Soldiers that are told to trust their superiors and put their lives in their hands are being manipulated and killed needlessly because of poor planning and hidden agendas. It should make everyone sick.

Thing is that it was an artificial state to begin with. It's made up of three groups that despise each other. Why on Earth did the U.S. gov't think that the people there would spontaneously come together after the removed Saddam? I mean, anyone with half a brain could have told them this would happen.

Soldiers that are told to trust their superiors and put their lives in their hands are being manipulated and killed needlessly because of poor planning and hidden agendas. It should make everyone sick.
And thinking about all these people who were killed by our army in Iraq.
They all got relarives and judging by their history and religion these relatives want a payback. So I guess they gonna fight us and everybody else for a very long time.

And thinking about all these people who were killed by our army in Iraq.
They all got relarives and judging by their history and religion these relatives want a payback. So I guess they gonna fight us and everybody else for a very long time.

I knew a girl where I used to work whose uncle got killed in Baghdad not that long ago. They weren't even Muslims, for crying out loud. The thing is that the U.S. presence destablisized things so much so it's not safe there for anyone. You think her and her family are greatful for being "liberated"?

When an American civilian gets shot and killed, don't the police withhold some information until they've conclude their investigation? Sometimes until long after the deceased is laid to rest?

What's the difference? Am I missing something?

When an American civilian gets shot and killed, don't the police withhold some information until they've conclude their investigation? Sometimes until long after the deceased is laid to rest?

What's the difference? Am I missing something?

The difference is that officials claimed that he had been killed by enemy fire right off the bat. They didn't say that the matter needed to bein vestigated before they drew conclusions. Right from the start, they had an "answer" for the public. And even after investigations revealed that it was friendly fire that was the cause, they kept that quiet as well. There wasn't any more "investigating" required.

They deliberately spread lies to make Tillman's death look more honourable and glamorous. They didn't want to make it look like someone that was so famous and so revered was killed by accident.

The difference is that officials claimed that he had been killed by enemy fire right off the bat. They didn't say that the matter needed to bein vestigated before they drew conclusions. Right from the start, they had an "answer" for the public.
He was killed in a war zone. 99.99% of the time when a soldier is killed in a war zone, It's by enemy fire. If they are guilty of anything, I would suspect it's jumping to conclusions and later realizing it was friendly fire.

And even after investigations revealed that it was friendly fire that was the cause, they kept that quiet as well. There wasn't any more "investigating" required.
Is that a fact that there wasn't anymore investigating? I believe it was only a couple weeks later that they revealed it was friendly fire. That kind of thing happens all the time in the civilian world. It's common.

They deliberately spread lies to make Tillman's death look more honourable and glamorous. They didn't want to make it look like someone that was so famous and so revered was killed by accident.

Well that's sounds crazy to me. It may be your opinion and the opinion of some others that they lied, but I think they had little to gain by lying. It doesn't make sense.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I just don't understand where you are coming from.

Well that's sounds crazy to me. It may be your opinion and the opinion of some others that they lied, but I think they had little to gain by lying. It doesn't make sense.

I'm not trying to give you a hard time, I just don't understand where you are coming from.

There was a nationally televised memorial service for the guy, and days before it aired they knew for sure that he died because of friendly fire and chose not to share that information with the public. Now I don't know about you but to me the only reasons why they would do this is because the truth conflicted with the image that they were trying to present to the public. Spreading misinformation in war is not uncommon, and is done because you wnat to promote a particular agenda.

It's not like this in particular in a huge deal, but my main point was how people seem to listen to whatever the gov't and military are saying without questioning it in the slightest, despite the fact that they have been caught in several lies.

I respect the fact that you might disagree with me. I know I've given some people in the thread a bit of a hard time but that was more because I wanted to get a good debate going, since the lounge has been rather dull lately. I don't mean to offend anyone.

Actually a lot of americans were killed in this war by friendly fire. Just remember how friendly artillery or aviation used to bomb their own troops in the beginning of the war. Now if something like that happens they just dont tell us. This is like a new regulation in army that as little as possible information about friendly fire kills is spread. Heard it from officer who is now in my college.

It's not like this in particular in a huge deal, but my main point was how people seem to listen to whatever the gov't and military are saying without questioning it in the slightest, despite the fact that they have been caught in several lies.

I respect the fact that you might disagree with me. I know I've given some people in the thread a bit of a hard time but that was more because I wanted to get a good debate going, since the lounge has been rather dull lately. I don't mean to offend anyone.I do agree that we should from time to time question the "gov't and military" as you say. But I also believe that we should refrain from jumping to conclusions and spreading nonfactual information as well. Including word of mouth. In the United States, you are innocent until proven guilty. The "gov't and military" shouldn't be exempt.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-scheer31may31,1,3853126.column?coll=la-util-opinion-commentary&ctrack=1&cset=true

Robert Scheer:
A Cover-Up as Shameful as Tillman's Death
Once again it has taken grieving relatives to point out that the Bush administration will exploit even a heroic death for its own partisan purposes.

As with the widows of Sept. 11 who demanded that our obfuscating leaders investigate what went wrong on that terrible day, or the wounded Army Pfc. Jessica Lynch, who resisted efforts to make her into some kind of Rambo figure, so relatives of late NFL star Pat Tillman are demanding to know why their celebrated war hero son's death in 2004 was exploited for public relations purposes by the U.S. military and the administration.

"They blew up their poster boy," Tillman's father, Patrick, a San Jose lawyer, told the Washington Post last week. He joined his former wife to demand accountability for the latest military cover-up to happen on Commander in Chief Bush's watch. High-ranking Army officials, he said, told "outright lies."

"After it happened, all the people in positions of authority went out of their way to script this," Tillman said. "They purposely interfered with the investigation …. I think they thought they could control it, and they realized that their recruiting efforts were going to go to hell in a handbasket if the truth about his death got out."

A devastating series of investigations and Post stories has shown that the Army's command structure was eager to cover up the embarrassing truth: that Pat Tillman, who turned down a $3.6-million contract with the Arizona Cardinals to join the Army Rangers after 9/11, was accidentally killed by his fellow Rangers while on patrol in Afghanistan a year ago.

Last spring, after months of increasingly damaging reports exposing the Abu Ghraib prison scandal and cover-up, the administration found some public relations relief in the sad, patriotic tale of a man who spurned fame and fortune to make "the ultimate sacrifice in the war on terror," in the words of a White House spokesman at the time. A nationally televised memorial service and a Silver Star commendation cemented Tillman's place as the nation's first war hero since the story of Lynch's capture and phony details of her rescue were foisted on the public in 2003.

Now, thanks to the reporting of the Post and the fury of Tillman's parents, we know that the military's top commanders were covering up the truth to protect their image, and that of the Bush administration's costly and deadly "nation-building" exercises in Afghanistan and Iraq.

Although "soldiers on the scene said they were immediately sure Tillman was killed by a barrage of American bullets," according to the Post, and "a new Army report on the death shows that top Army officials, including the theater commander, Gen. John P. Abizaid, were told that Tillman's death was fratricide days before the service," Army officials decided not to inform Tillman's family or the public until weeks after the memorial. And even then, they provided no details and answered no questions, saying only that friendly fire "probably" killed Tillman.

"The fact that he was the ultimate team player and he watched his own men kill him is absolutely heartbreaking and tragic," Tillman's mother, Mary, told the Post. "The fact that they lied about it afterward is disgusting."

The soldiers on the ground said they burned Tillman's bullet-riddled uniform and body armor, the Post reported, because they considered them a biohazard, and because, as one said, "we knew at the time, based on taking the pictures and walking around it, it was a fratricide…. so we weren't thinking about proof or anything."

So, given all this, why has nobody high in the Army chain of command, such as Abizaid, been held accountable for this cover-up?

Did President Bush know about it? If not, why not? After all, this was the most prominent soldier to die since Bush took office four years earlier, a prize recruit for his controversial spate of foreign invasions.

In any case, the White House has refrained from making any public apologies for the cover-up. Indeed, Mary Tillman said she was particularly offended that even after the facts were known, Bush exploited her son's death with a message played before an Arizona Cardinal game last fall before the election.

"Maybe lying's not a big deal anymore," Patrick Tillman said. "Pat's dead, and this isn't going to bring him back. But these guys should have been held up to scrutiny, right up the chain of command, and no one has."

For the Tillmans, as with Pfc. Lynch and the 9/11 widows, the path to true patriotism means confronting your government when it lies.

....How he died is irrelevent!!! He was a true American patriot who did it for the love of his country and not for fame, fortune, or any other self serving reasons. Without guys like him defending our country for years, whiners like Neils wouldn't even be around to ***** and complain about everything. And yeah, this is way old news!!!

PBDS, he was exploited though. He was perfect, the heroic looking square jawed, GI Joe who died a hero for the cause. Sure his death was a tragedy and noone is doubting he is a brave man. The controversy is over the government LYING about what happened to drum up support for the war.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061109/ap_on_re_us/inquest_for_a_warrior_7

AP: Startling findings in Tillman probe By SCOTT LINDLAW and MARTHA MENDOZA, Associated Press Writers
45 minutes ago



In a remote and dangerous corner of Afghanistan, under the protective roar of Apache attack helicopters and B-52 bombers, special agents and investigators did their work. They walked the landscape with surviving witnesses. They found a rock stained with the blood of the victim. They re-enacted the killings — here the U.S. Army Rangers swept through the canyon in their Humvee, blasting away; here the doomed man waved his arms, pleading for recognition as a friend, not an enemy.



"Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" he shouted, again and again.

The latest inquiry into Tillman's death by friendly fire should end next month; authorities have said they intend to release to the public only a synopsis of their report. But The Associated Press has combed through the results of 2 1/4 years of investigations — reviewed thousands of pages of internal Army documents, interviewed dozens of people familiar with the case — and uncovered some startling findings.

One of the four shooters, Staff Sgt. Trevor Alders, had recently had PRK laser eye surgery. Although he could see two sets of hands "straight up," his vision was "hazy," he said. In the absence of "friendly identifying signals," he assumed Tillman and an allied Afghan who also was killed were enemy.

Another, Spc. Steve Elliott, said he was "excited" by the sight of rifles, muzzle flashes and "shapes." A third, Spc. Stephen Ashpole, said he saw two figures, and just aimed where everyone else was shooting.

Squad leader Sgt. Greg Baker had 20-20 eyesight, but claimed he had "tunnel vision." Amid the chaos and pumping adrenaline, Baker said he hammered what he thought was the enemy but was actually the allied Afghan fighter next to Tillman who was trying to give the Americans cover: "I zoned in on him because I could see the AK-47. I focused only on him."

All four failed to identify their targets before firing, a direct violation of the fire discipline techniques drilled into every soldier.

There's more:

_Tillman's platoon had nearly run out of vital supplies, according to one of the shooters. They were down to the water in their Camelbak drinking pouches, and were forced to buy a goat from a local vendor. Delayed supply flights contributed to the hunger, fatigue and possibly misjudgments by platoon members.

_A key commander in the events that led to Tillman's death both was reprimanded for his role and meted out punishments to those who fired, raising questions of conflict of interest.

_A field hospital report says someone tried to jump-start Tillman's heart with CPR hours after his head had been partly blown off and his corpse wrapped in a poncho; key evidence including Tillman's body armor and uniform was burned.

_Investigators have been stymied because some of those involved now have lawyers and refused to cooperate, and other soldiers who were at the scene couldn't be located.

_Three of the four shooters are now out of the Army, and essentially beyond the reach of military justice.

Taken together, these findings raise more questions than they answer, in a case that already had veered from suggestions that it all was a result of the "fog of war" to insinuations that criminal acts were to blame.

The Pentagon's failure to reveal for more than a month that Tillman was killed by friendly fire have raised suspicions of a coverup. To Tillman's family, there is little doubt that his death was more than an innocent mistake.

One investigator told the Tillmans that it hadn't been ruled out that Tillman was shot by an American sniper or deliberately murdered by his own men — though he also gave no indication the evidence pointed that way.

"I will not assume his death was accidental or 'fog of war,'" said his father, Pat Tillman Sr. "I want to know what happened, and they've clouded that so badly we may never know."

And so, almost two years after three bullets through the forehead killed the star defensive back — a man who President Bush would call "an inspiration on and off the football field" — the fourth investigation began.

This time, the investigators are supposed to think like prosecutors:

Who fired the shots that killed Pat Tillman, and why?

Who insisted Tillman's platoon split and travel through dangerous territory in daylight, against its own policy? Who let the command slip away and chaos engulf the unit?

And perhaps most of all: Was a crime committed?

___

The long and complicated story of Pat Tillman's death and the investigations it spawned began five years ago, in the smoking ruins of the World Trade Center.

"It is a proud and patriotic thing you are doing," Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld wrote to Tillman in 2002, after Tillman — shocked and outraged by the Sept. 11 attacks — turned down a multimillion-dollar contract with the Arizona Cardinals to join the elite Army Rangers.

The San Jose, Calif. native enlisted with his brother Kevin, who gave up his own chance to play professional baseball. The Tillmans were deployed to Iraq in 2003, then sent to Afghanistan.

The mission of their "Black Sheep" platoon in April 2004 sounded straightforward: Divide a region along the Pakistan border into zones, then check each grid for insurgents and weapons. They were to clear two zones and then move deeper into Afghanistan.

But a broken-down Humvee known as a Ground Mobility Vehicle, or GMV, stalled the unit on an isolated road. A mechanic couldn't fix it, and a fuel pump flown in on a helicopter didn't help.

Hours passed. Enemy fighters watched invisibly, plotting their ambush.

Tillman's platoon must have presented an inviting target. There were 39 men — including six allied Afghan fighters trained by the CIA — and about a dozen vehicles.

Impatience was rising at the tactical operations center at Forward Operating Base Salerno, near Khowst, Afghanistan, where officers coordinated the movements of several platoons. Led by then-Maj. David Hodne, the so-called Cross-Functional Team worked at a U-shaped table inside a 20-by-30-foot tent with a projection screen and a satellite radio.

(Hodne, now a lieutenant colonel and executive officer for the 75th Ranger Regiment, declined to be interviewed on the record by the AP — as did nearly every person involved in the incident.)

When the Humvee broke down, the Black Sheep were nearing the end of their assignment; all that was left was to "turn one last stone and then get out," Hodne would testify. The unit was then to head for Manah, a small village where it would spend the night.

The commanders had already given the Black Sheep an extra day to get into its grid zones. High-ranking commanders were "pushing us pretty hard to keep moving," said Hodne.

"We had better not have any more delays due to this vehicle," he told his subordinates.

At the operations center, the Black Sheep's company commander, then-Capt. William C. "Satch" Saunders, was feeling the heat to get the platoon moving.

"We wanted to make sure we had a force staged to confirm or deny any enemy presence in Manah the next day, so we would not get ourselves too far behind setting ourselves up for our next series of operations," he recalled later to an investigator.

The order came down to split the platoon in two to speed its progress.

Saunders initially told investigators that Hodne had issued the order, but later, after he was given immunity from prosecution, he acknowledged it was his decision alone.

Hodne later said he was in the dark — "I felt like the village idiot because I had no idea what they were doing," he recalled. The decision was foolhardy, he said. Divided in two, "they didn't have enough combat power to do that mission" of clearing Manah, he testified. (Other commanders have insisted that splitting the platoon was perfectly safe and a common practice.)

One thing is clear: The order sparked a flurry of activity by the Black Sheep.

One of the gunners who shot Tillman said his unit didn't even have time to look at a map before getting back on the road.

"We were rushed to conduct an operation that had such flaws," said Alders. "Which in the end would prove to be fatal."

"If anything, this sense of urgency was as deadly to Tillman as the bullet that cut his life short," Alders wrote in a lengthy statement protesting his expulsion from the Rangers. "We could have conducted the search at night like we did on the follow-up operations or the next morning like we ended up doing anyway. Why, I ask, why?"

An investigator, Brig. Gen. Gary M. Jones, would later agree that an "artificial sense of urgency" to keep Tillman's platoon moving was a crucial factor in his death: "There was no specific intelligence that made the movement to Manah before nightfall imperative."

An officer involved in the incident told AP there was, however, general intelligence of insurgent activity in this region, historically a Taliban hotbed.

That suspicion would be confirmed when the Black Sheep drove through a narrow canyon, its walls towering about 500 feet, and came under fire from enemy Afghans. Chaos broke out and communications broke down.

After the platoon split, the second section of the convoy roared out of the canyon, into an open valley and straight at their comrades a few minutes ahead. A Humvee packed with pumped-up Rangers opened fire, killing the friendly Afghan and Tillman, though he desperately sought to be recognized.

Later, at least one of the same Rangers turned his guns on a village where witnesses say civilian women and children had gathered. The shooters raked it with fire, the American witnesses said; they wounded two additional fellow Rangers, including their own platoon leader.

___

Had it happened in the United States, police would have quickly cordoned off the area with "crime scene" tape and determined whether a law had been broken.

Instead, the investigations into Tillman's death have cascaded, one after another, for the past 30 months.

For Mary Tillman, getting to the bottom of her son's death is more than a personal quest.

"This isn't just about our son," she said. "It's about holding the military accountable. Finding out what happened to Pat is ultimately going to be important in finding out what happened to other soldiers."

In the days after the shootings, the first officer appointed to investigate, then-Capt. Richard Scott, interviewed all four shooters, their driver, and many others who were there. He concluded within a week that the gunmen demonstrated "gross negligence" and recommended further investigation.

"It could involve some Rangers that could be charged" with a crime, Scott told a superior later.

Then-Lt. Col. Jeffrey Bailey — the battalion commander who oversaw Tillman's platoon — later assured Tillman's family that those responsible would be punished as harshly as possible.

But no one was ever court martialed; staff lawyers advised senior Army commanders reviewing the incident that there was no legal basis for it.

Instead, the Army punished seven people all together; four soldiers received relatively minor punishments known as Article 15s under military law, with no court proceedings. These four ranged from written reprimands to expulsion from the Rangers. One, Baker, had his pay reduced and was effectively forced out of the Army. The other three soldiers received administrative reprimands.

Scott's report circulated briefly among a small corps of high-ranking officers.

Then, it disappeared.

Some of Tillman's relatives think the Army buried the report because its findings were too explosive. Army officials refused to provide a copy to the AP, saying no materials related to the investigation could be released.

The commander of Tillman's 75th Ranger Regiment, then-Col. James C. Nixon, wasn't satisfied with Scott's investigation, which he said focused too heavily on pre-combat inspections and procedures rather than on what had happened.

Scott "made some conclusions in the document that weren't validated by facts" as described by the participants, Nixon would tell later investigators.

Nixon assigned his top aide, Lt. Col. Ralph Kauzlarich, to lead what became the second investigation. Kauzlarich harshly criticized Baker and the men on his truck.

Among other things, Baker should have known that at least two of his subordinates had never been in a firefight, and should have closely supervised where they shot.

"His failure to do so resulted in deaths of Cpl. Tillman and the AMF soldier, and the serious wounding of two other (Rangers)," Kauzlarich concluded. "While a great deal of discretion should be granted to a leader who is making difficult judgments in the heat of combat, the command also has a responsibility to hold its leaders accountable when that judgment is so wanton or poor that it places the lives of other men at risk."

Still, the Tillman family complained that questions remained: Who killed Tillman? Why did they fire? Were the punishments stiff enough?

"I don't think that punishment fit their actions out there in the field," said Kevin Tillman, who was with his brother the day Pat was killed but was several minutes behind him in the trailing element of a convoy and saw nothing.

"They were not inquiring, identifying, engaging (targets). They weren't doing their job as a soldier," he told an investigator. "You have an obligation as a soldier to, you know, do certain things, and just shooting isn't one of your responsibilities. You know, it has to be a known, likely suspect."

And so, in November 2004, acting Army Secretary Les Brownlee ordered up yet another investigation, by Jones.

The result was 2,100 pages of transcripts and detailed descriptions of the incident, but no new charges or punishments. The report, completed Jan. 10, 2005, was provided — with many portions blacked out or removed entirely — to the Tillman family. It has not been released to the public; the family found it wanting.

Pressed anew by the Tillmans, the Pentagon inspector general announced a review of the investigations in August 2005. And in March 2006, they launched a new criminal probe into the actions of the men who shot at Tillman.

___

The veteran Pentagon official who is overseeing these latest inquiries, acting Defense Department Inspector General Thomas Gimble, has called the Tillman probe the toughest case he has ever seen, according to people he recently briefed.

Investigators are looking at who pulled the triggers and fired at Tillman; they are also looking at the officers who pressured the platoon to move through a region with a history of ambushes; the soldiers who burned Tillman's uniform and body armor afterward; and at everyone in the chain of command who deliberately kept the circumstances of Tillman's death from the family for more than a month.

Military investigators under Gimble's direction this year visited the rugged valley in eastern Afghanistan where Tillman was killed. It was a risky trip; the region is even more dangerous today than it was in 2004.

According to one person briefed by investigators, the contingent included at least two soldiers who were there the day of the incident — Staff Sgt. Matthew Weeks, a squad leader who was up the hill from Tillman when he was shot, and the driver of the GMV that carried the Rangers who shot Tillman, Staff Sgt. Kellett Sayre.

When the current inquiry began, the Pentagon projected it would be completed by September 2006. Now Gimble and the Army's Criminal Investigation Command, known as CID, are aiming to finish their work by December, say lawmakers and other officials briefed by Gimble.

CID is probing everything up to and including Tillman's shooting. The inspector general's office itself has a half-dozen investigators researching everything that happened afterward, including allegations of a coverup.

The investigators have taken sworn testimony from about 70 people, some of whom said they were questioned for more than six hours. But Gimble said investigators have been hindered by a failure to locate key witnesses, even some who are still in the active military.

Moreover, those who are now out of the Army, including three of the four shooters, can't be court martialed. They could be charged in the civilian justice system by a U.S. attorney, but such a step would be highly unusual.

The law that allows it, the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act, has been invoked fewer than a half-dozen times since its enactment in 2000, said Scott Silliman, executive director of Duke Law School's Center on Law, Ethics and National Security and a high-ranking Air Force lawyer until his retirement in 1993.

The investigation, Gimble has said, is also complicated because of "numerous missteps" by the three previous investigators, particularly their failure to follow standards for handling evidence.

Gimble promised lawmakers in a series of briefings this fall that his investigation "will bring all to light." He has committed to releasing his detailed findings to key legislators, Pentagon officials and the Tillman family, as well as a synopsis to the general public, congressional aides said.

Gimble declined an AP request for an interview.

To date, a total of seven soldiers have been disciplined in Tillman's death.

Bailey, the 2nd Ranger Battalion commander who was camped out about two miles down the road with another unit the night Tillman died, surveyed the shooting scene hours after it occurred.

"I don't think there was any criminal act," he said. "It was a fratricide based upon a lot of contributing factors, confusion," he testified to an investigator in late 2004.

Some high-ranking officers, including Bailey, believe a lack of control in the field was to blame — starting with the platoon leader and including the soldiers who didn't identify their targets.

Bailey, who approved punishments for several of the soldiers, said he disagreed with the platoon's protests that they were "doing what we asked them to do under some very difficult circumstances, and that there were mistakes made but they weren't negligent mistakes."

He also testified that "three gunners were, to varying degrees, culpable in what had happened out there." And he said he wanted a fourth soldier involved — the squad leader, Baker — "out of the military."

Baker soon left the Army.

As for others involved:

_The three other shooters — Ashpole, Alders and Elliott — remained in the service initially but Elliott and Ashpole have since left. Elliott struck a deal with authorities; in exchange for his testimony to investigator Jones, the Army gave him immunity from prosecution "in any criminal proceedings."

_The platoon leader, Lt. David Uthlaut, was later bumped down from the Rangers to the regular Army for failing to prepare his men prior to the shootings, according to Bailey.

"They didn't do communications checks. They didn't check out their equipment. So they'd been there 24 hours," Bailey testified. "For example, some of the weapons systems weren't even loaded with ammunition. Many of the soldiers didn't know where they were going. They didn't have contingency plans."

A non-commissioned officer on the ground that day, however, testified that the unit carried out required communications checks.

Uthlaut was also wounded by fellow Rangers in the incident. He was awarded the Purple Heart and later promoted to captain.

_Saunders, the company commander, was given the authority to punish three soldiers — even though he himself was reprimanded for his own poor leadership. Both Saunders and Hodne received formal written reprimands for failing to "provide adequate command and control" of subordinate units — administrative punishments lighter than the Article 15s handed down to the soldiers who shot at Tillman. This obviously hasn't hurt Hodne's career; he has since been promoted.

"I thought it was (the commanders') fault, or part of their fault that we were even in this situation, when they're telling us to split up," said Ashpole.

Some lawmakers have warned that if this probe does not clear up all questions on Tillman's death, they may press for congressional hearings. Others have said Congress could call for an independent panel of retired military officers and other experts to conduct an outside probe.

Rep. Mike Honda, a Democrat who represents the San Jose district where Tillman's family lives, has pressed the Pentagon for answers on the status of its investigations.

"I'm very impatient and at times cynical," Honda said. But, he said, the honor of the military — and the confidence of the public in the military and the government — are at stake.

"So if we pursue the truth and wait for it," he said, "it may be worthwhile."

This isn't a new story, is it?

I remember hearing a long time ago that it was friendly fire that killed him.

No its not new news. VERY ****ing old story. :nonono:

Newly released info

http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/20070726_pat_tillman_murdered/

Pat Tillman Murdered?

Posted on Jul 26, 2007
pat tillman
foxnews.com

Defense Department documents handed over to the Associated Press under a Freedom of Information Act request raised the possibility that the “friendly-fire” death of soldier and former NFL player Pat Tillman amounted to a crime. Doctors examining Tillman’s body after he was killed in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators that the three bullet holes in his head appeared to have been fired by an M-16 from less than a dozen yards away rather than the 100 meters or so that the military has claimed.

AP via Washington Post:

Army medical examiners were suspicious about the close proximity of the three bullet holes in Pat Tillman’s forehead and tried without success to get authorities to investigate whether the former NFL player’s death amounted to a crime, according to documents obtained by The Associated Press.

“The medical evidence did not match up with the, with the scenario as described,” a doctor who examined Tillman’s body after he was killed on the battlefield in Afghanistan in 2004 told investigators.

The doctors—whose names were blacked out—said that the bullet holes were so close together that it appeared the Army Ranger was cut down by an M-16 fired from a mere 10 yards or so away.

Ultimately, the Pentagon did conduct a criminal investigation, and asked Tillman’s comrades whether he was disliked by his men and whether they had any reason to believe he was deliberately killed. The Pentagon eventually ruled that Tillman’s death at the hands of his comrades was a friendly-fire accident.

Where you been, pbds? #6? I'm surprised it took you so long.

By the way, if you believe the hijacker hype, it was Saudi Arabians, not Afghanis who attacked us. So blowing some rubble around Afghanistan is hardly "defending our country"...(this is where I would insert a smilie if I did that sort of thing)

What do you mean, "hijacker hype"? Are you telling me you don't believe the planes were hijacked? :pat:

What do you mean, "hijacker hype"? Are you telling me you don't believe the planes were hijacked? :pat:
The airlines weren't corroborators, so I suppose the term 'hijack' is correct...

Do you think the U.S. Government were privy to the plan?

Do you think the U.S. Government were privy to the plan?
Start at 4:30

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This is a crock of **** Niels, I feel sorry for you for buying into this.

This is a crock of **** Niels, I feel sorry for you for buying into this.
There's lots more **** in my crock if you go through my post history...

There's lots more **** in my crock if you go through my post history...

Nah I don't read the political threads here, usually.

Nah I don't read the political threads here, usually.
What do you think about the new Pat Tillman evidence?

the Tillman case has been on our news a bit recently over suspicions that he was killed by friendly fire, and moments before he shouted at a fellow troop for wimpering

What do you think about the new Pat Tillman evidence?

That he waskilled by friendly fire? I don't see how it matters much. Nor do I expect the military to release the details of combat.

Was it intentional though? is that what the evdence suggests? or was it just a tragic accident

Niels, I have to say one thing before I go. Some of the "evidence" in that video is transparently specious. They take facts, like Pakistani politicians meeting with BOTH CIA and terrorist groups, and infer that the said politician is a link between the two. That's ****ing stupid. Of course Pakistani politicians regularly meet with both CIA and terrorist groups. It's called diplomacy. :pat:

Pretty much everything in the video is just like that. :pat:

It's a good thing the Amry lied and not the Army, Cause then I would have been pissed. :pat: