View Full Version : Who do you Regard as the second Greatest fighter to retire undefeated?


HaglerSteelChin
01-17-2010, 09:49 AM
I think Rocky Marciano who retired 49-0 would likely win the poll so i will ask who you regard as the second greatest fighter who retired undefeated? I won't include Paddy Monoghan who was a modern BKB who was like 114-0. In addition, the fighter needs a minimum of 20 wins so a guy like Ji Won Kim won't be included. Perhaps another list can be made for active undefeated fighters as Chris John, Ivan Calderon, Mayweather Jr, and Abraham etc.

If any fighter you like is not mentioned please include with details. Only Critieria is retired and atleast 20 wins.

mickey malone
01-17-2010, 10:00 AM
Good 1st choice, and the right one too!
It's a toss up between Ricardo Lopez and Joe Calzaghe..
This is a very good question, because whoever it is won't be universally recognized as an ATG.. I'll edge slightly towards Caz on the strength of him winning titles in 2 divisions with no draws..

GJC
01-17-2010, 10:32 AM
Got to be Sven Ottke surely :)

mickey malone
01-17-2010, 12:13 PM
Terry Marsh is actually 26-0-1.. A draw with Lloyd Christie (brother of Errol) early in his career..
Retired while reigning IBF LWW champ due to being diagnozed as suffering from epilepsy, then got arrested, banged up and eventually cleared, for the shooting of Frank Warren..

Bit of a character was Marsh, ex Marine, Fireman and at one time, a world amateur chess champion.. Like Bobby Czyz and Nicky Piper, he is also a mensa member..
I was gutted when he quit as he was coming into his prime and getting better with every fight.. The KO of John Louis Manley to win the title was nothing short of spectacular.. He was also a good talker and great in the commentary box also..

Since quiting boxing, he's had his hands in all sorts of pies.. I know he got some qualifications while studying through the Open University & later ran for Parliament in the local elections..
Although incredibly sharp & articulate, it all came to nothing as he was once again arrested by police for allegedly ripping off the Government grant system in order to gain his degree.. He was hit with several charges of defrauding the Goverment with intent, but incredibly, Marsh and his legal team made mugs of the officials in court, and was aquitted on all charges for a second time..

Marsh was always a tricky customer.. Inside the ring, he was durable, slick and incredibly fit, and outside of it, he had more moves than a snake..
Not sure what he's up to now, but i bet he's doing alright, and I don't believe for one minute, he's got epilepsy..

T3dBundy
01-17-2010, 12:33 PM
ricardo lopez FTW :D

HaglerSteelChin
01-17-2010, 12:38 PM
Terry Marsh is actually 26-0-1.. A draw with Lloyd Christie (brother of Errol) early in his career..
Retired while reigning IBF LWW champ due to being diagnozed as suffering from epilepsy, then got arrested, banged up and eventually cleared, for the shooting of Frank Warren..

Bit of a character was Marsh, ex Marine, Fireman and at one time, a world amateur chess champion.. Like Bobby Czyz and Nicky Piper, he is also a mensa member..
I was gutted when he quit as he was coming into his prime and getting better with every fight.. The KO of John Louis Manley to win the title was nothing short of spectacular.. He was also a good talker and great in the commentary box also..

Since quiting boxing, he's had his hands in all sorts of pies.. I know he got some qualifications while studying through the Open University & later ran for Parliament in the local elections..
Although incredibly sharp & articulate, it all came to nothing as he was once again arrested by police for allegedly ripping off the Government grant system in order to gain his degree.. He was hit with several charges of defrauding the Goverment with intent, but incredibly, Marsh and his legal team made mugs of the officials in court, and was aquitted on all charges for a second time..

Marsh was always a tricky customer.. Inside the ring, he was durable, slick and incredibly fit, and outside of it, he had more moves than a snake..
Not sure what he's up to now, but i bet he's doing alright, and I don't believe for one minute, he's got epilepsy..


Often records are often being updated for boxers. I put Macudiliffe as 34-0-7 but some have him as 31-0-6. There is also the issue of newspaper decsions on some past fighters and what are considered official or unofficial, or exhibition?

Jeffries also retired undefeated but came back with that fight against Jack Johnson due to white supremists and his vow to prove White Supremacy and of course failed.

Tsukiyomi
01-17-2010, 04:33 PM
I haven't seen some of those guys, but Ricardo Lopez was amazing he got my vote.

Sugarj
01-17-2010, 05:31 PM
Lopez got my vote by a whisker. I am a Calzaghe fan though and find him more entertaining than Ricardo.

Calilloyd
01-19-2010, 08:07 PM
I think Rocky Marciano who retired 49-0 would likely win the poll so i will ask who you regard as the second greatest fighter who retired undefeated? I won't include Paddy Monoghan who was a modern BKB who was like 114-0. In addition, the fighter needs a minimum of 20 wins so a guy like Ji Won Kim won't be included. Perhaps another list can be made for active undefeated fighters as Chris John, Ivan Calderon, Mayweather Jr, and Abraham etc.

If any fighter you like is not mentioned please include with details. Only Critieria is retired and atleast 20 wins.

Close between Lopez and Calzaghe, but Lopez got my vote.

DeepSleep
01-19-2010, 10:30 PM
Lopez followed by Calzaghe.

Obama
01-19-2010, 11:08 PM
Lopez > Marciano >>> Calzaghe

Wouldn't even be out of the question to rate some other undefeated fighters over Calzaghe, such as Jack McAuliffe. It's not like Calzaghe has a better win than a prime, undefeated Young Griffo. It's not like Calzaghe was undisputed champ for 6 years either.

You know what, yea. Let's redo this:

Lopez > Marciano > McAuliffe > Calzaghe

Calzaghe's name belongs along side the other elite undefeated fighters who never took the challenges required to define greatness, men such as Ike Ibeabuchi and Harry Simon.

Only problem is Ibeabuchi and Simon have good excuses, what's Clazaghe's? :nonono:

TheGreatA
01-20-2010, 12:09 AM
Jack McAuliffe could be the greatest fighter there's very little knowledge of. Some of his opponents, who have modest records at best on BoxRec, were considered among the top fighters of the time. No one ever beat him although he did have some controversial wins, much like Calzaghe against Hopkins, Marciano against LaStarza and so on.

The only film that exists of him are his boxing exhibitions with the likes of Carpentier, Dempsey while he was over 50 years old.

mickey malone
01-20-2010, 12:41 AM
Lopez > Marciano >>> Calzaghe

Wouldn't even be out of the question to rate some other undefeated fighters over Calzaghe, such as Jack McAuliffe. It's not like Calzaghe has a better win than a prime, undefeated Young Griffo. It's not like Calzaghe was undisputed champ for 6 years either.

You know what, yea. Let's redo this:

Lopez > Marciano > McAuliffe > Calzaghe

Calzaghe's name belongs along side the other elite undefeated fighters who never took the challenges required to define greatness, men such as Ike Ibeabuchi and Harry Simon.

Only problem is Ibeabuchi and Simon have good excuses, what's Clazaghe's? :nonono:
Here's some excuses

RJJ's preference to go in search of multiple world titles, instead of the job in hand, which was to fight Calzaghe.. Joe did request it..

B/Hop's preference to break the world record for MW title defenses with a string of inferior opponents..
Despite requesting the fight, Joe was deemed to much of a risk, and finding it harder to make MW, moved up to the SMW division.. Bernard then went on to achieve his goal without any interference from Calzaghe: well not until it became financially convenient to fight him anyway..

Two broken hands.. Hence the slapping style, that wasn't evident during his early career, but became more prominent as his hands suffered more and more breaks..
This is something a lot of people don't take into account, the hand problems held him back considerably, and ultimately signalled the end of his career..

When you compare these excuses to terrorizing your neighbourhood or mowing people down in your car, they're quite acceptable really..

Obama
01-20-2010, 06:07 AM
Here's some excuses

RJJ's preference to go in search of multiple world titles, instead of the job in hand, which was to fight Calzaghe.. Joe did request it..

B/Hop's preference to break the world record for MW title defenses with a string of inferior opponents..
Despite requesting the fight, Joe was deemed to much of a risk, and finding it harder to make MW, moved up to the SMW division.. Bernard then went on to achieve his goal without any interference from Calzaghe: well not until it became financially convenient to fight him anyway..

Two broken hands.. Hence the slapping style, that wasn't evident during his early career, but became more prominent as his hands suffered more and more breaks..
This is something a lot of people don't take into account, the hand problems held him back considerably, and ultimately signalled the end of his career..

When you compare these excuses to terrorizing your neighbourhood or mowing people down in your car, they're quite acceptable really..

RJJ and Bernard Hopkins never had any reason to take his challenges seriously when he asked for them while they were still prime. Calzaghe had done jack **** at the time. It was pre-Lacy ffs, Calzaghe was NOBODY then. The man wasted his career in the SMW division fighting cans. There were European fighters to fight at both SMW and LHW which would have given him a name, there were ranked American fighters willing to fight him that would have also given him a name. But Calzaghe didn't want to fight in America. Calzaghe simply didn't feel like he needed to establish himself. He thought he could fight bums in his backyard, then get all the great fighters to come to him. The man quite frankly was not too bright.

Of all the people who people dare to label great, Joe Calzaghe has the worst resume of them all. No excuse is good enough for that.

One more round
01-20-2010, 06:25 AM
RJJ and Bernard Hopkins never had any reason to take his challenges seriously when he asked for them while they were still prime. Calzaghe had done jack **** at the time. It was pre-Lacy ffs, Calzaghe was NOBODY then. The man wasted his career in the SMW division fighting cans. There were European fighters to fight at both SMW and LHW which would have given him a name, there were ranked American fighters willing to fight him that would have also given him a name. But Calzaghe didn't want to fight in America. Calzaghe simply didn't feel like he needed to establish himself. He thought he could fight bums in his backyard, then get all the great fighters to come to him. The man quite frankly was not too bright.

Of all the people who people dare to label great, Joe Calzaghe has the worst resume of them all. No excuse is good enough for that.

Calzaghe was never my cup of tea so to speak but he was a pretty good fighter, his main assets were his awkwardness, workrate and versatility. What you said about him was very true. He wasted so much time fighting those lower calibre guys. It doesn't necessarily matter that he fought them in the UK, if he could have brought the top guys out to the UK then fine, but you have to go to those guys when you are nobody, they don't come to you. So Joe was more than happy to waste his career doing that.

What annoys me most is when people talk about how Joe was even better before his hand problems settled in etc Well he should have been chasing the best in the US at the time and not ****ing around in the UK fighting scrubs! If he had gone after the best before his hands got really bad he could have built a better legacy for himself and we could have seen more of him.

mickey malone
01-20-2010, 08:38 AM
RJJ and Bernard Hopkins never had any reason to take his challenges seriously when he asked for them while they were still prime. Calzaghe had done jack **** at the time. It was pre-Lacy ffs, Calzaghe was NOBODY then. The man wasted his career in the SMW division fighting cans. There were European fighters to fight at both SMW and LHW which would have given him a name, there were ranked American fighters willing to fight him that would have also given him a name. But Calzaghe didn't want to fight in America. Calzaghe simply didn't feel like he needed to establish himself. He thought he could fight bums in his backyard, then get all the great fighters to come to him. The man quite frankly was not too bright.

Of all the people who people dare to label great, Joe Calzaghe has the worst resume of them all. No excuse is good enough for that.
Let's just say they had their reasons not to give him the opportunity, so he beat them when he could..
Have to agree with the way he mis-managed himself though.. Didn't do himself any favours by having most of his fights in the UK, but i don't think his resume is quite as bad as you think..

Chris Eubank - 2 weight world champ, decked and beaten
Juan Carlos Gimenez - Tough contender, stopped for the 1st time with broken ribs
Robin Reid - WBC champ, close call, but Joe still wins with a broken hand
Omar Sheika - Highly regarded contender, badly beaten and stopped
Richie Woodhall - WBC champ, outboxed stopped inside the distance
Mario Veit - European Champ, KO'd twice in 1 & 6 rounds respectively
Charles Brewer - IBF champ, bloodied & soundly outpointed
Byron Mitchell - WBA champ, KD's Joe then gets KO'd himself
Jeff Lacy - Highly rated IBF champ, beaten to a pulp in his prime
Sakio Bika - Still a dangerous contender today, easilly handled over 12 rounds
Mikkel Kessler - Multiple belt world champ, outfought & beaten 4 the 1st time

If you could add a prime Hopkins, Jones and Sven Ottke, then his resume would be sparkling, but the fact he was 35+ when he defeated RJJ & HOP almost evens it out..
As for Ottke, he was even less reluctant to travel than Calzaghe, having every single one of his fights in Germany.. When it comes to crap resumes and avoiding the best, I'd point the finger at Sven, not Joe..

sonnyboyx2
01-20-2010, 09:01 AM
Ike Ibeabuchi

sonnyboyx2
01-20-2010, 09:03 AM
Let's just say they had their reasons not to give him the opportunity, so he beat them when he could..
Have to agree with the way he mis-managed himself though.. Didn't do himself any favours by having most of his fights in the UK, but i don't think his resume is quite as bad as you think..

Chris Eubank - 2 weight world champ, decked and beaten
Juan Carlos Gimenez - Tough contender, stopped for the 1st time with broken ribs
Robin Reid - WBC champ, close call, but Joe still wins with a broken hand
Omar Sheika - Highly regarded contender, badly beaten and stopped
Richie Woodhall - WBC champ, outboxed stopped inside the distance
Mario Veit - European Champ, KO'd twice in 1 & 6 rounds respectively
Charles Brewer - IBF champ, bloodied & soundly outpointed
Byron Mitchell - WBA champ, KD's Joe then gets KO'd himself
Jeff Lacy - Highly rated IBF champ, beaten to a pulp in his prime
Sakio Bika - Still a dangerous contender today, easilly handled over 12 rounds
Mikkel Kessler - Multiple belt world champ, outfought & beaten 4 the 1st time

If you could add a prime Hopkins, Jones and Sven Ottke, then his resume would be sparkling, but the fact he was 35+ when he defeated RJJ & HOP almost evens it out..
As for Ottke, he was even less reluctant to travel than Calzaghe, having every single one of his fights in Germany.. When it comes to crap resumes and avoiding the best, I'd point the finger at Sven, not Joe..

You have made a strong case there for a bunch of class C tomato cans, to claim they was anything better is simply not true

mickey malone
01-20-2010, 09:20 AM
You have made a strong case there for a bunch of class C tomato cans, to claim they was anything better is simply not true
How can you label 7 world champions as class C tomato cans, and then use the phrase 'simply not true' in the same sentence?

TheGreatA
01-20-2010, 12:04 PM
I do think that Calzaghe had a bit of a "slapping" style even when his hands were still good. I also think that the Calzaghe of 2006-2007 was probably better than the Calzaghe of 10 years prior. The Kessler and Lacy fights go down as his best performances for me.

Southpaw16BF
01-20-2010, 12:07 PM
I do think that Calzaghe had a bit of a "slapping" style even when his hands were still good. I also think that the Calzaghe of 2006-2007 was probably better than the Calzaghe of 10 years prior. The Kessler and Lacy fights go down as his best performances for me.

I know you don't like list's. But roughly were would Calzaghe be in your top 100 ATG List or would he even make it?

sonnyboyx2
01-20-2010, 02:05 PM
Calzaghe ran from Glen Johnson

Joe's left hook
01-20-2010, 03:07 PM
I tend not to like whiteboys, but I don't mind Joe Calzaghe.

Not many guys have been World Champion for well over a decade and retired undefeated. Also, for him to unify his division, then go and win a World title at Light-Heavyweight against the great Bernard Hopkins (long before Bernard destroyed Kelly Pavlik) is kinda impressive.

Joe's left hook
01-20-2010, 03:08 PM
Calzaghe ran from Glen Johnson


I don't like Brits, so I'm not one to stick up for 'em, but this is bull****.

The_Demon
01-20-2010, 07:25 PM
joe calzaghe

lopez behind him

mickey malone
01-20-2010, 10:55 PM
Calzaghe ran from Glen Johnson
Johnson was abysmal at super middle, losing 7 out of 11, including one to Omar Sheika, who you said was a 'tomato can'

Joe was 100% right not to give him a shot..

The_Demon
01-21-2010, 08:04 AM
I don't like Brits, so I'm not one to stick up for 'em, but this is bull****.

and they dont like you