First of all I have to say that was a great fight. It far exceeded my expectations. I give credit not only to Toney's exciting counterpunching but also Ruiz's insistance on fighting in a crowd pleasing manner. In losing, he may have gotten more respect than he would have in winning his usual way. That is not to say I think he could beat Toney by clinching. No, Toney is head and shoulders above Ruiz.

HOWEVER, some of the comments by RJJ were ridiculous. James Toney would have his way with Vitali? Vitali, who is so big and so strong and a sound tacticion himself? Let's put Toney's performance in perspective.

Toney fought a great fight and Ruiz very rarely landed anything memorable. However, he did enjoy some success with his jab and John Ruiz does not have an especially good jab. Vitali does. If Ruiz was able to establish his jab, then Vitali will as well. Common sense. Vitali has a better and harder jab than Ruiz, and he is much taller on top of that. Vitali's jab and height alone will present some formidable challenges for the 5'9" Toney.

As far as looking at Toney as a heavyweight, I don't buy it. He will always be a blown up middleweight. I don't care what he weighed when he played football. I was 215 pounds in HS with 17" biceps and a 46" chest. I consider myself a natural light heavyweight. Perhaps even a super middleweight if I were to get into great shape, and would never entertain the notion of fighting as a heavyweight.

Fighting shape and football shape are very very different things. Anthony Mundine plays rugby. Do you think the guy weighs 168 when doing so? I don't. I would guess he's 190 on the field AT LEAST.

Let's look at the evidence. Ruiz got the better of every single clinch. True, most of the time Toney just let himself get pushed back but there were times when Toney tried to resist and muscle his way in and Ruiz easily shoved him back. Ruiz has fair strength at heavyweight, but he has nothing on Vitali, one of the physically strongest fighters I've ever seen.

Punching power? Toney's has nothing to brag about at heavyweight. He landed nearly 60% of his power punches, many of them flush right hands to Ruiz's chin, and he only hurt Ruiz on a few occasions. Pretty good for a middleweight right, stunning a natural heavyweight and all? Yeah, except he isn't fighting at middleweight. He's supposed to be a heavyweight and when you land 60% of your power punches (most of them swift counterpunches that Ruiz didnt even SEE) on an opponent and you don't score one legit knockdown, you can't seriously call yourself a power puncher.

What Toney does have on his side are possibly the swiftest hands in the division right now, a solid chin that withstood some decent heavyweight shots (I wouldn't call it granite at HW until he eats a good shot by a real puncher), and awesome defensive skills. His parries were remarkable in how casual yet effective they were. Oh yeah, and ring generalship.

Toney knows the score in there. He's knows when to go easy and take a breather and when to go nuts and take some respect (but never getting carried away or emotional). He is calm and punches accurately with speed and fluidity. He is P4P the best heavyweight (albeit a false one) since Roy Jones decided to dip his feet into the division's water.

Toney impressed me a lot and I think a Vitali match would be an entertaining affair that he has a slight shot at if only because of Vitali's lack of stamina. However to think he would be favored in that fight, or that he could possibly hurt Vitali, is a foolish assumption. Vitali is just too big and too smart to allow a small heavyweight like Toney to fight his fight.

Vitali would murder Toney. Fans want a bloodsport? Watch Vitali-Toney though it'd be one sided. Only Ruiz could take on Vitali!

Vitali would murder Toney. Fans want a bloodsport? Watch Vitali-Toney though it'd be one sided. Only Ruiz could take on Vitali!
And get murdered. ;)

First of all I have to say that was a great fight. It far exceeded my expectations. I give credit not only to Toney's exciting counterpunching but also Ruiz's insistance on fighting in a crowd pleasing manner. In losing, he may have gotten more respect than he would have in winning his usual way. That is not to say I think he could beat Toney by clinching. No, Toney is head and shoulders above Ruiz.

HOWEVER, some of the comments by RJJ were ridiculous. James Toney would have his way with Vitali? Vitali, who is so big and so strong and a sound tacticion himself? Let's put Toney's performance in perspective.

Toney fought a great fight and Ruiz very rarely landed anything memorable. However, he did enjoy some success with his jab and John Ruiz does not have an especially good jab. Vitali does. If Ruiz was able to establish his jab, then Vitali will as well. Common sense. Vitali has a better and harder jab than Ruiz, and he is much taller on top of that. Vitali's jab and height alone will present some formidable challenges for the 5'9" Toney.

As far as looking at Toney as a heavyweight, I don't buy it. He will always be a blown up middleweight. I don't care what he weighed when he played football. I was 215 pounds in HS with 17" biceps and a 46" chest. I consider myself a natural light heavyweight. Perhaps even a super middleweight if I were to get into great shape, and would never entertain the notion of fighting as a heavyweight.

Fighting shape and football shape are very very different things. Anthony Mundine plays rugby. Do you think the guy weighs 168 when doing so? I don't. I would guess he's 190 on the field AT LEAST.

Let's look at the evidence. Ruiz got the better of every single clinch. True, most of the time Toney just let himself get pushed back but there were times when Toney tried to resist and muscle his way in and Ruiz easily shoved him back. Ruiz has fair strength at heavyweight, but he has nothing on Vitali, one of the physically strongest fighters I've ever seen.

Punching power? Toney's has nothing to brag about at heavyweight. He landed nearly 60% of his power punches, many of them flush right hands to Ruiz's chin, and he only hurt Ruiz on a few occasions. Pretty good for a middleweight right, stunning a natural heavyweight and all? Yeah, except he isn't fighting at middleweight. He's supposed to be a heavyweight and when you land 60% of your power punches (most of them swift counterpunches that Ruiz didnt even SEE) on an opponent and you don't score one legit knockdown, you can't seriously call yourself a power puncher.

What Toney does have on his side are possibly the swiftest hands in the division right now, a solid chin that withstood some decent heavyweight shots (I wouldn't call it granite at HW until he eats a good shot by a real puncher), and awesome defensive skills. His parries were remarkable in how casual yet effective they were. Oh yeah, and ring generalship.

Toney knows the score in there. He's knows when to go easy and take a breather and when to go nuts and take some respect (but never getting carried away or emotional). He is calm and punches accurately with speed and fluidity. He is P4P the best heavyweight (albeit a false one) since Roy Jones decided to dip his feet into the division's water.

Toney impressed me a lot and I think a Vitali match would be an entertaining affair that he has a slight shot at if only because of Vitali's lack of stamina. However to think he would be favored in that fight, or that he could possibly hurt Vitali, is a foolish assumption. Vitali is just too big and too smart to allow a small heavyweight like Toney to fight his fight.
Good post, overall allthough Vitali, besides his "open mouth since second round" trait never gave me an impression that he has a bad stamina. In all his fights he threw remarkable amount of punches(70 to 90) every round. Name one fight where you saw Vitali act like he is exhausted. Not look like he is exhausted.
he looks like that in every fight.

I respect you opinion, but I think Toney has a good style to beat Vitali.

Vitali is practically a foot taller than Toney. oney is one of my top 10 faves right now, but he will not be able to reach Vitali at all. If he comes in the same kind of shape he was in vs Ruiz, he will get stopped. Hell, he might get stopped even if he comes in good shape.

Hey, lets turn Boxing into circus and throw in Valuev Vs. Toney. 7' Vs 5'9. David Vs. Goliath! What a freak show

Good post, overall allthough Vitali, besides his "open mouth since second round" trait never gave me an impression that he has a bad stamina. In all his fights he threw remarkable amount of punches(70 to 90) every round. Name one fight where you saw Vitali act like he is exhausted. Not look like he is exhausted.
he looks like that in every fight.

He was getting too tired in the middle rounds to take out Danny Williams like he should have. The thing that saved him was that at that point he was fighting a punching bag and anything was going to send Danny to the floor. The thing is that he was having his way against an inferior opponent in the early rounds but later on he was having trouble finishing the thing.

Good post, by the way. I agree that Vitali would be favoured over Toney, however if Toney is fast enough with his punches he could give him trouble.

Vitaly is a bit overrated IMO. He isn't exactly a pugilistic genious. In fact, he is a bit robotic. Toney is shorter than Vitaly but his boxing ability is light years better than Vitaly. If Toney can manuever inside, he will give Vitaly tons of problems. Toney will see Vitaly's robotic pounches coming.

The only thing Vitaly has going is his height.

Here's a question... Ruiz was having his way quite a lot for the first half of the fight. Do you think Toney was allowing him to do so, or was he genuinely getting a competitive boxing match from Ruiz until round seven?

Toneys a better overall boxer and is more proven. The size Vitali has would be a problem but Toney has that ability to roll and counter. Would be a good fight but Toney would pull out either a UD or a late round KO

Here's a question... Ruiz was having his way quite a lot for the first half of the fight. Do you think Toney was allowing him to do so, or was he genuinely getting a competitive boxing match from Ruiz until round seven?

Toney and Ruiz would both open up, if that's what you mean. So Ruiz would get some shots in but they weren't doing any damage. Toney on the other hand was hurting Ruiz. To me the fight didn't seem as close as you might have had it early on...Toney was winning most of the rounds by my scorecard.

Toney and Ruiz would both open up, if that's what you mean. So Ruiz would get some shots in but they weren't doing any damage. Toney on the other hand was hurting Ruiz. To me the fight didn't seem as close as you might have had it early on...Toney was winning most of the rounds by my scorecard.
I'll have to see it again but I had it at least even by the halfway stage. Now whether this was because Toney was taking it easy or because Ruiz had a genuinely good workrate and style for the first half is open to question.

Also, Toney took far too many clean shots in the first half for me. Part of me says this is because he's a ****y SOB who likes to show off his chin. The other part of me says that he couldn't avoid them and Ruiz is better than given credit for...

I'll have to see it again but I had it at least even by the halfway stage. Now whether this was because Toney was taking it easy or because Ruiz had a genuinely good workrate and style for the first half is open to question.

Also, Toney took far too many clean shots in the first half for me. Part of me says this is because he's a ****y SOB who likes to show off his chin. The other part of me says that he couldn't avoid them and Ruiz is better than given credit for...

Yeah, I might see the fight again and see it differently, but that was my first impression. To me this fight showed that Ruiz isn't a bad hitter but is hopeless when he opens himself up, which might explain his usual tactics.

I think Toney was doing his usual possuming, but I think that Ruiz did manage to get some shots in when Toney was genuinely defending himself, or at least when he wasn't playing games. The thing is that Toney could take a few shots if it meant scoring back on Ruiz. It depends on if you're scoring the fight on number of punches landed or their effect on the opponent, I suppose.

Yeah, I was just watching the fight with a dread feeling in my stomach Ruiz would pull an upset. Toney's got a chin alright, but Ruiz is debatably the hardest puncher he's faced...

bwahhahahahahaha toney KO vitali. i piss my pnats everytime someone says that. toney skillz light eyars ahead of vitlai? vitali has never been outboxed even when he lost he outboxing the guy. vitlai has somethign to prove? are u tellign me that a man with 37 heavyweight fights, has the wbc and ring title is les sproven then a guy with 3 fights?? toneys middleweight and crusierwieght career has nothign to do with what he can do at ehavyweight. he beat john ****ign ruiz, a man who cant win unless he uses illegal tactics and has a corrupt manager who pays judges to make him win. vitali is waaay underrated everytime he fights he is just liek toney o this guy is gonan beat him. so toney is gonna go to vitlais body eh? how is he gonna do that open up charge in liek danny williams? or is he gonan wait for vitali to get close and brawl they way he alwasy does :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: /sarcasm. toney vs vitali is gonan be a cross betwen the kirk johnson fight and danny williams. even if toney gets to the body his power will do little, danny got in some body shots and he hits way harder then toney, didnt keep danny from getting TKO'd. the ruiz win has u really biased toney fans all clouded up in the head and u r lookign like complete idiots.

Ruiz gave a good account of himself not only early on but also to some degree later in the fight, landing some body shots that connected cleanly and had some bad intentions on them. This was in spite of his obvious exhaustion. Overall Ruiz's most effective punch was the jab and there were parts of the fight where he was doubling up on the jab and hitting Toney twice in succession. Toney won and won big but it was not a shutout.

I do think Toney was easing into the fight and that's why I gave Ruiz two of the first three rounds. I think Toney had respect for Ruiz's power early on which diminished as the fight went on and Ruiz's condition worsened. Ruiz never seemed to respect Toney's power at any point in the fight. Even the times he was stunned he was throwing punches in retaliation seconds later.

I say all of this having watched the fight a few hours ago and with no bias. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a Ruiz fan. I picked Ruiz for the reasons stated in my other post.

this is unbelievable. Toney would get murdered aganist Vitali. ANother, Klitscho vs Williams on the making. The only reason Vitali didn't finish up Danny Williams early (when he could have) is because so that the people who bought that PPV don't regret it. Vitali coulda stopped William in round 3, but he chose not to. That's what'll happen to Toney.

this is unbelievable. Toney would get murdered aganist Vitali. ANother, Klitscho vs Williams on the making. The only reason Vitali didn't finish up Danny Williams early (when he could have) is because so that the people who bought that PPV don't regret it. Vitali coulda stopped William in round 3, but he chose not to. That's what'll happen to Toney.

He chose not to!? So Vitali in the middle of the fight thought, "Okay, I'm whipping this guy, but because there are peopel watching at home I'm going to take it easy on him and drop him in the later rounds"? Like, you really think that?

Ruiz gave a good account of himself not only early on but also to some degree later in the fight, landing some body shots that connected cleanly and had some bad intentions on them. This was in spite of his obvious exhaustion. Overall Ruiz's most effective punch was the jab and there were parts of the fight where he was doubling up on the jab and hitting Toney twice in succession. Toney won and won big but it was not a shutout.

I do think Toney was easing into the fight and that's why I gave Ruiz two of the first three rounds. I think Toney had respect for Ruiz's power early on which diminished as the fight went on and Ruiz's condition worsened. Ruiz never seemed to respect Toney's power at any point in the fight. Even the times he was stunned he was throwing punches in retaliation seconds later.

I say all of this having watched the fight a few hours ago and with no bias. Contrary to popular belief, I'm not a Ruiz fan. I picked Ruiz for the reasons stated in my other post.

I thought Ruiz's combos to the body had a lot of power behind them as well. Toney's was just tough enough to take'em. So I guess that, yeah, they weren't really effective.

He chose not to!? So Vitali in the middle of the fight thought, "Okay, I'm whipping this guy, but because there are peopel watching at home I'm going to take it easy on him and drop him in the later rounds"? Like, you really think that?

I really think this. Williams is garbage. Vitali coulda finished his ass up early, he didn't. What's the explanation on why Vitali couldn't stop Williams early who wasn't even throwin punches?

I really think this. Williams is garbage. Vitali coulda finished his ass up early, he didn't. What's the explanation on why Vitali couldn't stop Williams early who wasn't even throwin punches?

Williams is a tough enough guy, which is why he could stand the initial onslaught. I will give you that Vitali hits hard but if you're a tough SOB you can take a few punches no matter how hard they come. Williams is no brilliant fighter but he can get hit, as you can see from this and the Tyson fight.

After a while IMO Vitali got tired because of his well-known stamina problem. I'm willing to hear other opinions about this but your theory doesn't fly with me. Nothing personal or anything :cool: .

Williams is a tough enough guy, which is why he could stand the initial onslaught. I will give you that Vitali hits hard but if you're a tough SOB you can take a few punches no matter how hard they come. Williams is no brilliant fighter but he can get hit, as you can see from this and the Tyson fight.

After a while IMO Vitali got tired because of his well-known stamina problem. I'm willing to hear other opinions about this but your theory doesn't fly with me. Nothing personal or anything :cool: .


OK doo, but that's my opinion. Though I don't see your thinking behind sayin that Williams is "tough SOB" when his ass has been gettin dropped even before he fought Vitali. One word that summarize Williams is "garbage". I hope you agree wit that!

OK doo, but that's my opinion. Though I don't see your thinking behind sayin that Williams is "tough SOB" when his ass has been gettin dropped even before he fought Vitali. One word that summarize Williams is "garbage". I hope you agree wit that!

Yeah, he's garbage, but he's garbage that can stand up a little better than most other garbage...course that doesn't stop him from being knocked down in the end :cool: .

Whats up with Vitali's 'well known' stanima problem? Name one fight he lost because of a stamina problem.

since when did finishing someone quickly decide how good someone was?? so what if VK carried williams for 8 rounds? he dominated the fight and it wasn't even close.... which is more than what byrd, brewster or ruiz could say about their title defenses.. they aren't even finishing their opponents at all.....

Though I don't see your thinking behind sayin that Williams is "tough SOB" when his ass has been gettin dropped even before he fought Vitali. One that!
williams is a tough man, make no mistake about that, klitchko was raining punches down on him all night and he just kept getting up, otherguys like kirk johnson bailed out early, but williams was not going to quit until the ref stopped it or he was knocked out cold. and unlike klitchko he carried on fighing with a dislocated shoulder and won. people can say what they want about williams's boxing ability, but to say he's not tough is ridiculous, he's one of the toughest guys out there

williams is a tough man, make no mistake about that, klitchko was raining punches down on him all night and he just kept getting up, otherguys like kirk johnson bailed out early, but williams was not going to quit until the ref stopped it or he was knocked out cold. and unlike klitchko he carried on fighing with a dislocated shoulder and won. people can say what they want about williams's boxing ability, but to say he's not tough is ridiculous, he's one of the toughest guys out there


Williams got dropped like crazy times and he's tough? Doo, if he fought back even it bein one sided beating, if he went forward and tried to get Vitali, then HE is tough! He was a punchin bag that was made by quality material is all it is! He's got a good fightin spirit and will, but he aint tough or hard!

HAs Vitali even beat a good foghter? Not great, just good?

I didn't agree with what Jones said about Vitali either. Vitali IMO would be Toneys hardest fight. Achilles...im glad to see you giving James credit after ****ting on him for so long though.

I hope Vitali will get to fight Toney. Vitali is very difficult to beat. Everyone who fights Vitali are always surprised by Vitali.

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.


id liek to know how exactly toney will get on the inside lmao

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.

Guys like you talk so much **** about how lousy a fighter like Ruiz is, yet he took Toney to 12 and was even on the cards for the first half of the fight. You really think against a fighter as powerful, huge, and smart as Vitali, that Toney even has a prayer? No way.

Toney wouldn't get murdered against Vitali. What happens when JT gets on the inside? He's gonna pound VK's body to mush, couple that with VK wheezing after 4-5 rounds, and you got one tired giant. Klitchko's not fast , he's strong as **** but he'll have to aim down and you don't get the same power. Plus Toney's too slick defensively. Watch vitali's size be his own undoing. JT will find a way on the inside and make the big guys miss. He won't knock VK out but it ain't no suicide mission.
From what I've heard, punching down gives you more power due to gravity and more leverage. Punching up against gravity is what would diminish your power. The only way Toney wins this is if Vitali gets in a car wreck on the way to the arena.

Guys like you talk so much **** about how lousy a fighter like Ruiz is, yet he took Toney to 12 and was even on the cards for the first half of the fight. You really think against a fighter as powerful, huge, and smart as Vitali, that Toney even has a prayer? No way.


Toney has a prayer..."guys like you" are the same guys who were saying, "James Toney is a fat blown up middleweight who hasn't taken a heavyweight punch yada yada..."

Ruiz was a legit heavy who, even though he's boring as ****, finds a way to win against other legit fighters like Golota and Rahman. Toney beat him soundly and I think that says something about Toneys chances with Vitali.

Hey Sturm...did you watch the fight?

From what I've heard, punching down gives you more power due to gravity and more leverage. Punching up against gravity is what would diminish your power. The only way Toney wins this is if Vitali gets in a car wreck on the way to the arena.

well you use your legs as leverage when you punch. when you put weight on your legs, you push with yourlegs to get power and your tendency would be to go up. I don't see how putting weight on your legs then punching down would generate more power. It's unnatural.

First of all I have to say that was a great fight. It far exceeded my expectations. I give credit not only to Toney's exciting counterpunching but also Ruiz's insistance on fighting in a crowd pleasing manner. In losing, he may have gotten more respect than he would have in winning his usual way. That is not to say I think he could beat Toney by clinching. No, Toney is head and shoulders above Ruiz.

HOWEVER, some of the comments by RJJ were ridiculous. James Toney would have his way with Vitali? Vitali, who is so big and so strong and a sound tacticion himself? Let's put Toney's performance in perspective.

Toney fought a great fight and Ruiz very rarely landed anything memorable. However, he did enjoy some success with his jab and John Ruiz does not have an especially good jab. Vitali does. If Ruiz was able to establish his jab, then Vitali will as well. Common sense. Vitali has a better and harder jab than Ruiz, and he is much taller on top of that. Vitali's jab and height alone will present some formidable challenges for the 5'9" Toney.

As far as looking at Toney as a heavyweight, I don't buy it. He will always be a blown up middleweight. I don't care what he weighed when he played football. I was 215 pounds in HS with 17" biceps and a 46" chest. I consider myself a natural light heavyweight. Perhaps even a super middleweight if I were to get into great shape, and would never entertain the notion of fighting as a heavyweight.

Fighting shape and football shape are very very different things. Anthony Mundine plays rugby. Do you think the guy weighs 168 when doing so? I don't. I would guess he's 190 on the field AT LEAST.

Let's look at the evidence. Ruiz got the better of every single clinch. True, most of the time Toney just let himself get pushed back but there were times when Toney tried to resist and muscle his way in and Ruiz easily shoved him back. Ruiz has fair strength at heavyweight, but he has nothing on Vitali, one of the physically strongest fighters I've ever seen.

Punching power? Toney's has nothing to brag about at heavyweight. He landed nearly 60% of his power punches, many of them flush right hands to Ruiz's chin, and he only hurt Ruiz on a few occasions. Pretty good for a middleweight right, stunning a natural heavyweight and all? Yeah, except he isn't fighting at middleweight. He's supposed to be a heavyweight and when you land 60% of your power punches (most of them swift counterpunches that Ruiz didnt even SEE) on an opponent and you don't score one legit knockdown, you can't seriously call yourself a power puncher.

What Toney does have on his side are possibly the swiftest hands in the division right now, a solid chin that withstood some decent heavyweight shots (I wouldn't call it granite at HW until he eats a good shot by a real puncher), and awesome defensive skills. His parries were remarkable in how casual yet effective they were. Oh yeah, and ring generalship.

Toney knows the score in there. He's knows when to go easy and take a breather and when to go nuts and take some respect (but never getting carried away or emotional). He is calm and punches accurately with speed and fluidity. He is P4P the best heavyweight (albeit a false one) since Roy Jones decided to dip his feet into the division's water.

Toney impressed me a lot and I think a Vitali match would be an entertaining affair that he has a slight shot at if only because of Vitali's lack of stamina. However to think he would be favored in that fight, or that he could possibly hurt Vitali, is a foolish assumption. Vitali is just too big and too smart to allow a small heavyweight like Toney to fight his fight.


Aren't you the same guy who claims size doesn't mean anything in boxing? Yeah I think thats you. When I try and tell you Lennox Lewis is just way to big for Joe Louis you go off saying how it doesn't matter because HJoe Louis is just so much more skilled and what not, now you saying Toney couldn't beat Vitali even though Toney is 10x more skilled than Vitali.

Ruiz established his jab and got the better on the inside? would you like to tell me what fight you were watching?

I think Roy Jones was right on. James would see Vitali's punches coming from a mile away. Vilati does not throw punches in bunches and even if he does try and trown combinations he's way to slow. Vitali does not bring his jab up after he trows it he lets it drop. Not to mention Vitali's body would be open for James all day long.

As far as not being able to hurt Vitali goes that doesn't matter becuae James will be looking to out point him not knock him out.

Like you also said Vitali has horrible stamina and has already quit in a fight.

Guys like you talk so much **** about how lousy a fighter like Ruiz is, yet he took Toney to 12 and was even on the cards for the first half of the fight. You really think against a fighter as powerful, huge, and smart as Vitali, that Toney even has a prayer? No way.

Why you quoting me about Ruiz if I enevr mentioned him in my post. But you're right, Ruiz is a lousey fighter. Good call. He took the underdog 12 rounds when he was labeled the favorite...he was suppose to win. And when you say Toney don't even have a prayer, you're watching the wrong sport. I've seen a lot more shocking **** than if I see JT get a decision over Vitali.

well you use your legs as leverage when you punch. when you put weight on your legs, you push with yourlegs to get power and your tendency would be to go up. I don't see how putting weight on your legs then punching down would generate more power. It's unnatural.
I don't know the physics of all of it, I had heard that somewhere. Vitali is always punching down anyways. I don't think it will be a problem.

I don't know the physics of all of it, I had heard that somewhere. Vitali is always punching down anyways. I don't think it will be a problem.

It'll be a problem when the inside fighting starts.

It'll be a problem when the inside fighting starts.
Toney will have to fight off some pretty hard jabs, but it can be done. Even though Vitali will just wrap him up and lean his huge body on him, it can be done. Don't hold your breath for a Toney win in this fight. I'd give Toney a legit shot at beating any other heavyweight though, just to prove I'm not a Toney-hater.

id liek to know how exactly toney will get on the inside lmao

I think SturmRules has raised the biggest qus to everyone who think Toney will win. Everyone is talking about when Toney gets on the inside but the qus is HOW? And to the people who said Toney could see his punches from a mile away. Did you see the Ruiz fight? Ruiz was jabbing and Toney didnt even move, he let Ruiz hit him. How is he going to counterpunch someone with a longer reach. I think we need to post the arm length of these two fighters...

I think SturmRules has raised the biggest qus to everyone who think Toney will win. Everyone is talking about when Toney gets on the inside but the qus is HOW? And to the people who said Toney could see his punches from a mile away. Did you see the Ruiz fight? Ruiz was jabbing and Toney didnt even move, he let Ruiz hit him. How is he going to counterpunch someone with a longer reach. I think we need to post the arm length of these two fighters...
I agree. Everyone keeps saying how Toney will beat him on the inside, but nobody ever gives a good reason why Vitali will even let him anywhere near him.

I think SturmRules has raised the biggest qus to everyone who think Toney will win. Everyone is talking about when Toney gets on the inside but the qus is HOW? And to the people who said Toney could see his punches from a mile away. Did you see the Ruiz fight? Ruiz was jabbing and Toney didnt even move, he let Ruiz hit him. How is he going to counterpunch someone with a longer reach. I think we need to post the arm length of these two fighters...


vitali has 80" reach plus he is 6'7"

toney has 76" and on boxrec it says he is 5"11 but i hera people say 5'9"????

I agree. Everyone keeps saying how Toney will beat him on the inside, but nobody ever gives a good reason why Vitali will even let him anywhere near him.

course toney fans wont answer they cant they say that to maek themselves feel better

*sighs*

Oh im sorry, someone please tell me when Vitali turned into Larry Holmes and developed this awsome jab people are talking about?

What do you mean no one ever gives a good reason why Toney will beat Vitali on the inside? You do know James Toney is one of the greatest infighters of all time right and Vitali pretty cant fight on the inside at all.

Do you know how James will get inside on Vitali? because he will make Vitali come to him thats why.

Vitali is far from some defensive genius here people.

*sighs*

Oh im sorry, someone please tell me when Vitali turned into Larry Holmes and developed this awsome jab people are talking about?

What do you mean no one ever gives a good reason why Toney will beat Vitali on the inside? You do know James Toney is one of the greatest infighters of all time right and Vitali pretty cant fight on the inside at all.

Do you know how James will get inside on Vitali? because he will make Vitali come to him thats why.

Vitali is far from some defensive genius here people.


HA HA HA HA HA HA HA ( deep breathe) HA HA HA HA HA

He doesnt need to be a defensive genious if hes attacking. All he has to do is stay outside of Toneys reach and jab. He has a nice hard jab, better than what Ruiz was throwing at least...

OMG the mighty jose is back

go to the lounge , we even made a thread about you.

youre right about vitaly , he doesnt have a great jab , but he has an educated and very very heavy jab , plus he usually pushes shorter fighters with his left hand more than he hits them , to keep them at bay

He doesnt need to be a defensive genious if hes attacking. All he has to do is stay outside of Toneys reach and jab. He has a nice hard jab, better than what Ruiz was throwing at least...


Vitali attacking is what Toney wants. Vitali letting his hands go creates more oputunities for Toney to counter.

*sighs*

Oh im sorry, someone please tell me when Vitali turned into Larry Holmes and developed this awsome jab people are talking about?

What do you mean no one ever gives a good reason why Toney will beat Vitali on the inside? You do know James Toney is one of the greatest infighters of all time right and Vitali pretty cant fight on the inside at all.

Do you know how James will get inside on Vitali? because he will make Vitali come to him thats why.

Vitali is far from some defensive genius here people.
Hell, if you want to say that, when did Toney turn into some giant-killer, able to penetrate any defense in boxing. The man's barely fought anyone at heavyweight. Vitali has fought MANY fighters whose only hope to win was on teh inside. They couldn't get it done. Unless you start providing some kind of concrete logic here, you will continue to look nothing more than speculative.

Hell, if you want to say that, when did Toney turn into some giant-killer, able to penetrate any defense in boxing. The man's barely fought anyone at heavyweight. Vitali has fought MANY fighters whose only hope to win was on teh inside. They couldn't get it done. Unless you start providing some kind of concrete logic here, you will continue to look nothing more than speculative.

toney is a famous giant killer in the gym .


he has a reputation for destroying young and strong HW in sparring . but they sure are no vitaly K

Hell, if you want to say that, when did Toney turn into some giant-killer, able to penetrate any defense in boxing. The man's barely fought anyone at heavyweight. Vitali has fought MANY fighters whose only hope to win was on teh inside. They couldn't get it done. Unless you start providing some kind of concrete logic here, you will continue to look nothing more than speculative.

exactly. this doo Jose is so joy, happy jest cuz Toney won against Ruiz. John ****in Ruiz, man. After the Ruiz fight, some people think here Toney is the king of heavyweight.

Lets all be realistic and not be delusional! Vitali would knockout Toney. It would be difficult for Toney to come inside Vitali and land his shots because Vitali will keep him away wit his jabs and straight rights.

Hell, if you want to say that, when did Toney turn into some giant-killer, able to penetrate any defense in boxing. The man's barely fought anyone at heavyweight. Vitali has fought MANY fighters whose only hope to win was on teh inside. They couldn't get it done. Unless you start providing some kind of concrete logic here, you will continue to look nothing more than speculative.

What are you talking about? James Toney has more than proven his boxing skills and his abillity to disect a fighter over the past 15 years in this sport. The guy has come up from 160lbs I think its safe to say he isn't afraid of fighting bigger guys.

as far as Viltai fighting MANY guys that doesn't mean those guys are good. Because FACTS are FACTS the two best fighters Vitali has fought he's LOST to and Vitali has never fought a boxer like James Toney.

If these two guys were the same size it wouldn't be up for debate who would win.

Yea IF they were the same size but the fact is they are not. Toney is naturally a smaller guy and we still dont know how he'll stand up to a 250 lb powerpuncher.

Yea IF they were the same size but the fact is they are not. Toney is naturally a smaller guy and we still dont know how he'll stand up to a 250 lb powerpuncher.


but we have seen Vitali in with a much smaller slick boxer and well...things didn't exactly go well for him that night.

I can realize how many people think Toney would stand a chance. He does possess more skill than Vitali, he just lacks the size and experience in the heavyweight division. Im not saying Vitali has fought much better fighters, but they were real heavyweights however. Toney could concievably win the fight, If he were to somehow counter everything Vitali throws. My only problem with this...is his attitude in the ring. He thinks he is superior to everyone he fights, and that might catch up with him. If you noticed, in the Ruiz fight he was clowning around and playing opossum the entire time. Yes that worked against huggy bear.....but how in the hell would he manage to pull that off against the giant. For one, Vitali is extremely cautious. He would not try and overpower Toney like Ruiz did.....leaning foward on all of his punches.

Vitali likes to fight tall....and that could be a disadvantage, but I dont think so. If Toney were to lay against the ropes, that would spell doom for him. Klitschko would test him with the jab, and throw straight right hands at him. Who really cares if the land flush at first....that does not matter. What really does matter, is that he breaks opponents down systematically. Toney would need to lose alot of weight, more than likely 20+ pounds in order to be ready for the fight. Danny Williams, who I think hits harder than Toney blew up before the Klitschko fight. His mobility was affected, and he was a sitting duck.

I just dont think Toney has the lateral movement to escape Vitali's punches......because remember. Vitali does let his hands go. Toney has yet to fight a heavyweight that hits as hard....or is as active.

I really think Toney would get KTFO horribly.

Some of you are saying Toney would K.O. Vitali........And I think that is some stupid **** personally.

ya vitali has a L next to chris byrd but u cant change the fact that with 1 ARM he was still outboxing a prime byrd who is quicker and slicker then james toney. i give toney no chance at all unless vitali gets hurt again or cut or drugged

ya vitali has a L next to chris byrd but u cant change the fact that with 1 ARM he was still outboxing a prime byrd who is quicker and slicker then james toney. i give toney no chance at all unless vitali gets hurt again or cut or drugged


Byrd is not slicker or quicker than Toney. You also cannot deny the fact when the going got tough for him he quit on his stool.

Drugged? come on now

I can realize how many people think Toney would stand a chance. He does possess more skill than Vitali, he just lacks the size and experience in the heavyweight division. Im not saying Vitali has fought much better fighters, but they were real heavyweights however. Toney could concievably win the fight, If he were to somehow counter everything Vitali throws. My only problem with this...is his attitude in the ring. He thinks he is superior to everyone he fights, and that might catch up with him. If you noticed, in the Ruiz fight he was clowning around and playing opossum the entire time. Yes that worked against huggy bear.....but how in the hell would he manage to pull that off against the giant. For one, Vitali is extremely cautious. He would not try and overpower Toney like Ruiz did.....leaning foward on all of his punches.

Vitali likes to fight tall....and that could be a disadvantage, but I dont think so. If Toney were to lay against the ropes, that would spell doom for him. Klitschko would test him with the jab, and throw straight right hands at him. Who really cares if the land flush at first....that does not matter. What really does matter, is that he breaks opponents down systematically. Toney would need to lose alot of weight, more than likely 20+ pounds in order to be ready for the fight. Danny Williams, who I think hits harder than Toney blew up before the Klitschko fight. His mobility was affected, and he was a sitting duck.

I just dont think Toney has the lateral movement to escape Vitali's punches......because remember. Vitali does let his hands go. Toney has yet to fight a heavyweight that hits as hard....or is as active.

I really think Toney would get KTFO horribly.

Some of you are saying Toney would K.O. Vitali........And I think that is some stupid **** personally.
LOL. Yeah, I said in another thread how the only people I see saying Toney is so badass, will KO Vitali, and whatever other crazy **** is on boxingscene. I've yet to hear someone in the real world say that stupid ****. I think it's more that there's so many VK-haters than actual Toney fans.

but we have seen Vitali in with a much smaller slick boxer and well...things didn't exactly go well for him that night.

Vitali has never been outboxed, that is a fact. Byrd is very quick and good at boxing, but Vitali still had no trouble controlling Byrd. I do not know much about Toney, so I do not know if he is quicker than Byrd.

Vitali does have a good jab. He punches his left hand at the correct times waiting to throw the surprising right hand, which is very hard and good! Vitali's right punch surprises everyone! It surprised Lennox Lewis. No one can prepare for Vitali, he surprises everyone. This is why Lennox Lewis did not want to finish what was started, despite the entire boxing world demanding it.

Vitali has never been outboxed, that is a fact. Byrd is very quick and good at boxing, but Vitali still had no trouble controlling Byrd. I do not know much about Toney, so I do not know if he is quicker than Byrd.

Vitali does have a good jab. He punches his left hand at the correct times waiting to throw the surprising right hand, which is very hard and good! Vitali's right punch surprises everyone! It surprised Lennox Lewis. No one can prepare for Vitali, he surprises everyone. This is why Lennox Lewis did not want to finish what was started, despite the entire boxing world demanding it.

GOOD POST!

Vitali has never been outboxed, that is a fact. Byrd is very quick and good at boxing, but Vitali still had no trouble controlling Byrd. I do not know much about Toney, so I do not know if he is quicker than Byrd.

Vitali does have a good jab. He punches his left hand at the correct times waiting to throw the surprising right hand, which is very hard and good! Vitali's right punch surprises everyone! It surprised Lennox Lewis. No one can prepare for Vitali, he surprises everyone. This is why Lennox Lewis did not want to finish what was started, despite the entire boxing world demanding it.

http://youknowtheysay.com/images/_39193006_cut203.jpg
If that's not finishing what he started, I don't know what it is.

58-56 58-56 58-56
All for Vitali

Fight stopped after round six due to a Klitschko cut.
After refusing a rematch, Lewis announces his retirement February 6, 2004

Finished?

58-56 58-56 58-56
All for Vitali

Fight stopped after round six due to a Klitschko cut.
After refusing a rematch, Lewis announces his retirement February 6, 2004

Finished?


I agree that Vitali was winning the fight at the point that the fight was stopped...but Lennox was landing monsterous punches in the 5th and 6th and if the fight would have gone on Vitali may have been badly hurt. Not to mention that Vitali fought the worst out of shape Lennox possible.

I haven't seen the fight but was the cut actually caused by a punch?

If Vitali got hurt from missing punches against Bryd???

Can you even imagine how many punches Toney would slip?


Vitali would win if he didn't injure himself, but I think the chance of him hurting himself is HUGE!!!!

58-56 58-56 58-56
All for Vitali

Fight stopped after round six due to a Klitschko cut.
After refusing a rematch, Lewis announces his retirement February 6, 2004

Finished?


Hey when Championship fights start getting scheduled for 6 rounds let me know.

I haven't seen the fight but was the cut actually caused by a punch?

You mean all 8 cuts?...Yes all cause by punches

yeah mundine apparently weighed almost 190lbs when playing for st george/illawara. mundine is a very professional athelete, don't know about toney though.

here we go all the vitlai haters r now gonna bring up lennox lewis in a toney-vitali thread. and yes byrd is quicker and slicker then toney at heavy dude.

Hey when Championship fights start getting scheduled for 6 rounds let me know.

Your right, but someone should've told Lewis that. Because that's how he kept his belt

You mean all 8 cuts?...Yes all cause by punches

And stop trying to group my posts with that of others. It's cheap, but I guess I shouldn't be surprised