View Full Version : Best fighter ever, pre 1940.


One more round
01-16-2010, 02:00 AM
Name some candidates for best fighter pre 1940. Even a top 5 or top 10 list would be interesting.

JAB5239
01-16-2010, 02:25 AM
Name some candidates for best fighter pre 1940. Even a top 5 or top 10 list would be interesting.

Benny Leonard
Joe Gans
Georgie Dixon
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jim Jeffries
Jack Blackburn
Sam Langford
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Jimmy Wilde

There are 10 in no particular order that can be argued about. Personally I'd say Leonard or Gans, but thats just my personal opinion.

dde91
01-16-2010, 02:29 AM
henry Armstrong

mickey malone
01-16-2010, 05:15 AM
Candidates in no Particular order (too hard)

Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Sam Langford
Joe Gans
Bob Fitzsimmons
Jack Dempsey
Jack Johnson
Jimmy Wilde
Benny Leonard
Gene Tunney
Tommy Loughran
Stanley Ketchell
Tony Canzoneri
Peter Jackson
Barney Ross
Mickey Walker
Jamaica Joe Walcott
Les Darcy

One more round
01-16-2010, 07:50 AM
I would give it to Armstrong or Leonard personally. But Greb and Langford also have strong cases.

Andrew Cuff V2
01-16-2010, 08:17 AM
Joe Gans or Benny Leonard would get my vote.

Slimey Limey
01-16-2010, 09:34 AM
James J Jeffries. Great fighter, an even greater man outside the ring. God bless him.

Spartacus Sully
01-16-2010, 10:01 AM
James J. Jeffries

HaglerSteelChin
01-16-2010, 10:58 AM
Well if you mean Pre-1940 and there entire career to be finished before 1940 than I say:

Harry Greb
Benny Leonard
Gene Tunney
Joe Gans
Sam langford


If you count fighters that their careers started pre 1940 than i say Henry Armstrong hands down. Willie Pepp started in 1940 professionally so he dosen't count and makes the Armstrong the logical choice.

GJC
01-16-2010, 11:58 AM
Harry Greb
Henry Armstrong
Sam Langford
Joe Gans
Benny Leonard

Bob Fitzsimmons was hard to drop from top 5 and I could look at this tomorrow and drop one of the others for him.

CarlosG815
01-16-2010, 12:11 PM
Max Schmeling
Joe Louis
Gene Tunney
Jack Dempsey

It's really tough to say from that era, that was prime time for ATG, but I tend to lean toward Max Schmeling.

Ive never seen Louis vs. Schmeling 2, personally.

GJC
01-16-2010, 01:01 PM
Ive never seen Louis vs. Schmeling 2, personally.

You should see this fight it is rated by many as Louis greatest performance, I personally favour the Baer fight.

EzzardFan
01-16-2010, 01:11 PM
Harry Greb
Sam Langford
Stanley Ketchel
Jack Johnson
Tiger Flowers
Harry Wills
Gene Tunny
Benny Leonard
Henry Armstrong
Joe Choynski

Method Checker
01-16-2010, 02:17 PM
Harry Greb, with either Benny Leonard or Sam Langford as the runner-up.

JAB5239
01-16-2010, 06:15 PM
James J Jeffries. Great fighter, an even greater man outside the ring. God bless him.

"I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro." -James J. Jeffries

Yeah he was all class just like you, right?

Slimey Limey
01-16-2010, 06:20 PM
Indeed he was. 'Beez' you mad, killer?
Keep it sweet lad. You don't want to end up running away in tears like the last thread.

JAB5239
01-16-2010, 06:26 PM
Indeed he was. 'Beez' you mad, killer?
Keep it sweet lad. You don't want to end up running away in tears like the last thread.

No son I didn't run away mad, you refused to answer questions. Finally I had to ask myself, 'does arguing with a retard make me look retarded too'? The answer was a resounding yes so I simply stopped arguing like I will here after this post. Nice to know you're a racist as well as ignorant though. Those are fine qualities for a person such as yourself.

Method Checker
01-16-2010, 06:31 PM
"I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro." -James J. Jeffries

Yeah he was all class just like you, right?

He's probably just a troll. I'd just forget about him and ignore him, if I were you.

JAB5239
01-16-2010, 06:34 PM
He's probably just a troll. I'd just forget about him and ignore him, if I were you.

He's definitely a troll my man. Check out his post history if you want a better idea how much of a clown he is. He likes to spew outrageous claims but refuses to back them up with facts or logic.

Slimey Limey
01-16-2010, 06:34 PM
No son I didn't run away mad, you refused to answer questions. Finally I had to ask myself, 'does arguing with a retard make me look retarded too'? The answer was a resounding yes so I simply stopped arguing like I will here after this post. Nice to know you're a racist as well as ignorant though. Those are fine qualities for a person such as yourself.

This sounds a lot more diffirent than the lad in the thread. I recall tough guy comments like "I would school you all in debates, I always win etc" but then you ran off. Probably because you were on your own against multiple attackers. Finally for once the opposite, innit? Because when I am the one being ganged upon you seem to have a lot more courage and willingness to argue.

As for this:
Nice to know you're a racist as well as ignorant though.

I never said that quote from Jeffries was the reason I have such respect for him. You put those words in me mouth.

HaglerSteelChin
01-16-2010, 06:40 PM
James Jeffries did beat Corbett, Sharkey, and Fitzsimmons so he is an ATG. I think he either had atleast one win or draw with Choynski? But he did lose to Jack Johnson proving his racist theory was wrong.

wmute
01-16-2010, 07:05 PM
I never sat down to think about this, but I always perceived from variosu readings that Joe Gans was the complete package.

Tha_Greatest
01-16-2010, 09:30 PM
James J Jeffries. Great fighter, an even greater man outside the ring. God bless him.
red k has been sent, give me some too homie, thanks, lol, nyahahahaha

you ****in piece of ****

Tha_Greatest
01-16-2010, 09:48 PM
"I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro." -James J. Jeffries

Yeah he was all class just like you, right?
what the ****, a white supremacists, what an idiot, slimey can kiss my black ass ,what i stupid name too, slimey, lol, nyahahahahahaha, fool calls himself slimey, lol, nyahahahahahahaha

JAB5239
01-16-2010, 09:51 PM
what the ****, a white supremacists, what an idiot, slimey can kiss my black ass ,what i stupid name too, slimey, lol, nyahahahahahaha, fool calls himself slimey, lol, nyahahahahahahaha

Yeah, only a racist could admire another racist. Sad.

One more round
01-17-2010, 12:40 AM
I put the Slimey one on ignore, just to annoy him.

JAB5239
01-17-2010, 12:45 AM
I put the Slimey one on ignore, just to annoy him.

He got himself another ban for racist remarks and gestures thru pictures.

One more round
01-17-2010, 12:47 AM
He got himself another ban for racist remarks and gestures thru pictures.

Good, he will be back though.

JAB5239
01-17-2010, 12:53 AM
Good, he will be back though.

Yup, but he'll keep getting banned. A skunk can't change its stench and he can't help being an idiot.

mickey malone
01-17-2010, 01:21 AM
James Jeffries did beat Corbett, Sharkey, and Fitzsimmons so he is an ATG. I think he either had atleast one win or draw with Choynski? But he did lose to Jack Johnson proving his racist theory was wrong.
I should have thought about Choynski on 'the greatest fighters never to win the title' thread.. He had an incredible resume for the era that he fought in..
Although he lost 3 times to Jim Corbett during his early career, he fought a multitude of world champions, but mostly at the wrong times..
He KO'd a young Jack Johnson in 3 rounds, and fought draws with Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Marvin Hart, and Kid McCoy but also lost to the latter on 2 occasions.. He lost 2 or 3 times to Philly Jack O'Brien aswell, but this was way late in his career..

EzzardFan
01-17-2010, 08:21 AM
I should have thought about Choynski on 'the greatest fighters never to win the title' thread.. He had an incredible resume for the era that he fought in..
Although he lost 3 times to Jim Corbett during his early career, he fought a multitude of world champions, but mostly at the wrong times..
He KO'd a young Jack Johnson in 3 rounds, and fought draws with Jeffries, Fitzsimmons, Marvin Hart, and Kid McCoy but also lost to the latter on 2 occasions.. He lost 2 or 3 times to Philly Jack O'Brien aswell, but this was way late in his career..

I second this.

sonnyboyx2
01-17-2010, 08:28 AM
Freddie Steele

mickey malone
01-17-2010, 10:47 AM
Freddie Steele
Probably the most underrated quality champion of all time..
Only Robinson, Ali and Pep belong in the same sentence when it comes to footwork..

Spartacus Sully
01-18-2010, 04:04 AM
"I am going into this fight for the sole purpose of proving that a white man is better than a Negro." -James J. Jeffries

Yeah he was all class just like you, right?

Given the time period and the air around the jeffries vs johnson fight i would consider that quite a modest and respectable statement. perhaps one of higher quality then anything else that was said by any white man leading up to the fight.

I would consider it no diffrent then an American saying that his reason to fight is to prove that Americans are better then Europeans while all the other Americans are calling for a public execution in the ring of the any European slur you could think of.

atleast he didnt say :"You're not even in my league! I would never let a white boy beat me. I would never lose to a white boy. I couldn't go back to the projects if I let a white boy beat me." cause thats just rude and disrespectful.

and what did hopkins have to say after the fight?

***8220;I believe I won the fight,***8221; Hopkins said. ***8220;I know questions will be asked and it was close. But when all is said and done history will reflect well on Bernard Hopkins. I got beaten tonight but it wasn***8217;t by Joe Calzaghe.***8221;

and Jeffies?

He showed a little class and said something along the lines of " i could have never beat johnson even in my prime" though i cant find that actual quote at the moment.

JAB5239
01-18-2010, 05:10 AM
Given the time period and the air around the jeffries vs johnson fight i would consider that quite a modest and respectable statement. perhaps one of higher quality then anything else that was said by any white man leading up to the fight.

As a fighter I give Jeffries much respect. But there is nothing respectable about claiming to fight in the name of white superiority. I hardly think that is modest or respectable, especially considering the time. I understand the era and the circumstance, that still doesn't make it right.

Spartacus Sully
01-18-2010, 05:42 AM
As a fighter I give Jeffries much respect. But there is nothing respectable about claiming to fight in the name of white superiority. I hardly think that is modest or respectable, especially considering the time. I understand the era and the circumstance, that still doesn't make it right.

really my thoughts was the whole thing was about money. in this time period whos gonna be richer whites or blacks? and whos the richer group gonna bet on the current heavy weight champ or the white guy thats been out of it for 6 years and just spent the last 3 months loosing 100 lbs? sad to say but they're gonna back the past prime jeffries. jeffries only said what he needed to say to keep the money on him with out any derogatory terms and with out insulting the opponents character. he simply stated what he believed and what he was tought growing up. his statement was not ****y and he was not insulting beyond stating his belief maintaining modesty and being as respectful as any one could while disagreeing with some one elses beliefs.

a belief is a belief and i find no wrong doing in having a belief. to test that belief, given that you arnt in any way restricting any one elses rights, i find no wrong doing. in fact allowing for the belief to be tested might even be more righteous then just having a belief

But to create and act apon assumed rights biased off this belief especially in cases that restrict other peoples rights is wrong disrespectful and overly prideful, along with being absloutley nothing like what jeffries did.

and what happened when his belief was disproven? did he blame it on his 6 year lay off no he said that he would have never beaten him even in his prime he had no excuses when he lost and took like a man and with class to boot but was that enough? no jeffries even went as far as to rate johnson as #1 heavy weight ever in his auto biography.

As a human being i would rate him with Marciano as a boxer before 1940 i would rate him at the top.

JAB5239
01-18-2010, 05:51 PM
really my thoughts was the whole thing was about money. in this time period whos gonna be richer whites or blacks? and whos the richer group gonna bet on the current heavy weight champ or the white guy thats been out of it for 6 years and just spent the last 3 months loosing 100 lbs? sad to say but they're gonna back the past prime jeffries. jeffries only said what he needed to say to keep the money on him with out any derogatory terms and with out insulting the opponents character. he simply stated what he believed and what he was tought growing up. his statement was not ****y and he was not insulting beyond stating his belief maintaining modesty and being as respectful as any one could while disagreeing with some one elses beliefs.

First off money had nothing to do with his comment. He was getting paid regardless. Second, most people in the KKK were brought up to think the way they do. Does that make them any less racist?

a belief is a belief and i find no wrong doing in having a belief. to test that belief, given that you arnt in any way restricting any one elses rights, i find no wrong doing. in fact allowing for the belief to be tested might even be more righteous then just having a belief

So you are ok with one race claiming superiority based on skin color and treating others like second class citizens? I mean if thats their belief its ok and you don't find anything wrong with it, right?

But to create and act apon assumed rights biased off this belief especially in cases that restrict other peoples rights is wrong disrespectful and overly prideful, along with being absloutley nothing like what jeffries did.

Just saying it adds fuel to the fire for those who would restrict another humans rights. The fact that Jeff saw nothing wrong with that makes it racist in itself.

and what happened when his belief was disproven? did he blame it on his 6 year lay off no he said that he would have never beaten him even in his prime he had no excuses when he lost and took like a man and with class to boot but was that enough? no jeffries even went as far as to rate johnson as #1 heavy weight ever in his auto biography.

Have you ever heard the saying "you can't unring a bell"? words stick and they influence other people. Because he didn't make any excuses doesn't mean he thought any differently about Johnson as a man. And rating him number 1 is self serving.

As a human being i would rate him with Marciano as a boxer before 1940 i would rate him at the top.

You'd rate Jeffries better than Armstrong, Tunney, Greb, Gans, Leonard, Canzoneri, Ross, Langford etc., etc., etc.? Hmmmm!

MonsieurGeorges
01-18-2010, 11:39 PM
Gotta be Armstrong, Benny Leonard or Joey Gans

Spartacus Sully
01-19-2010, 02:26 AM
First off money had nothing to do with his comment. He was getting paid regardless. Second, most people in the KKK were brought up to think the way they do. Does that make them any less racist?

how do they act? its not what you believe that makes you a racists and its not even what you say its how you act and what you say to hurt. I hear rappers say the n word all the time does that mean they hate African Americans? if the child of a kkk member grew up never taking part in anything related to the kkk never took part in any mis deeds against minorities hell never even told racial jokes but firmly maintained that his race was a superior race im pretty sure it makes him less racist.


So you are ok with one race claiming superiority based on skin color and treating others like second class citizens? I mean if thats their belief its ok and you don't find anything wrong with it, right?

Im ok with one man (not one race) claiming racial superiority in such a situation done with out slangs and slurs. if thats his belief and hes doing what hes doing to put it to the test thats absolutely fine by me.


Just saying it adds fuel to the fire for those who would restrict another humans rights. The fact that Jeff saw nothing wrong with that makes it racist in itself.

adds fuel to the fire? because it wasn't untill that moment in time white people started thinking that they were better then any other race? he threw a foot long stick into a forest fire a cup of heavy water into the sun.


Have you ever heard the saying "you can't unring a bell"? words stick and they influence other people. Because he didn't make any excuses doesn't mean he thought any differently about Johnson as a man. And rating him number 1 is self serving.

true but i dont think he was trying to take back what he said i think he was trying to make the real reasons for what he said more clear or atleast show that what he said wasnt said with hurtful intentions.

You'd rate Jeffries better than Armstrong, Tunney, Greb, Gans, Leonard, Canzoneri, Ross, Langford etc., etc., etc.? Hmmmm!

dont know enough about armstrong, yes id say better then tunny greb gans and langford dont know enough about leonard canzoneri or ross either.

Take any boxer you want to compare jeffries to, count up all the fights they had with the top boxers of their time figure out what percent those fights are of the total fights the boxer had and im sure jeffries will allways have a higher percentage. in his prime he fought some of the hardest men to walk the earth only to never be koed and never knocked down, in his prime.

JAB5239
01-19-2010, 04:28 AM
how do they act? its not what you believe that makes you a racists and its not even what you say its how you act and what you say to hurt. I hear rappers say the n word all the time does that mean they hate African Americans? if the child of a kkk member grew up never taking part in anything related to the kkk never took part in any mis deeds against minorities hell never even told racial jokes but firmly maintained that his race was a superior race im pretty sure it makes him less racist.



Im ok with one man (not one race) claiming racial superiority in such a situation done with out slangs and slurs. if thats his belief and hes doing what hes doing to put it to the test thats absolutely fine by me.



adds fuel to the fire? because it wasn't untill that moment in time white people started thinking that they were better then any other race? he threw a foot long stick into a forest fire a cup of heavy water into the sun.



true but i dont think he was trying to take back what he said i think he was trying to make the real reasons for what he said more clear or atleast show that what he said wasnt said with hurtful intentions.



dont know enough about armstrong, yes id say better then tunny greb gans and langford dont know enough about leonard canzoneri or ross either.

Take any boxer you want to compare jeffries to, count up all the fights they had with the top boxers of their time figure out what percent those fights are of the total fights the boxer had and im sure jeffries will allways have a higher percentage. in his prime he fought some of the hardest men to walk the earth only to never be koed and never knocked down, in his prime.

We're not going to find any level ground on this, I can already tell, so I'll let it go before either of us gets off track and turns this thread into a flame,

I believe all the fighters I named were better p4p fighters than Jeff. That isn't meant to diminish what he accomplished, these men just did more. Beat better fighters, more longevity. I'll add Johnson to that list as well. Besides Tunney all took on the very best of the best regardless of color. Unfortunately Jeffries cannot claim this.

Spartacus Sully
01-19-2010, 04:49 AM
We're not going to find any level ground on this, I can already tell, so I'll let it go before either of us gets off track and turns this thread into a flame,

I believe all the fighters I named were better p4p fighters than Jeff. That isn't meant to diminish what he accomplished, these men just did more. Beat better fighters, more longevity. I'll add Johnson to that list as well. Besides Tunney all took on the very best of the best regardless of color. Unfortunately Jeffries cannot claim this.

who did jeffries duck because of color?

JAB5239
01-19-2010, 05:05 AM
who did jeffries duck because of color?

Considering he wouldn't fight any black contenders while champion I'll have to say all of them.

Spartacus Sully
01-19-2010, 05:08 AM
Considering he wouldn't fight any black contenders while champion I'll have to say all of them.

Wouldnt or Couldnt? I believe the quote twords johnson was something to the extent of " how about you me and the belt go down to the basement and who ever walks out with the belt can keep it" to which johnson decline.

JAB5239
01-19-2010, 05:13 AM
Wouldnt or Couldnt? I believe the quote twords johnson was something to the extent of " how about you me and the belt go down to the basement and who ever walks out with the belt can keep it" to which johnson decline.

what does that have to do with the sport of boxing? What does that have to do with Jeffries not fighting ANY black contenders while he held the title?

roxy
01-19-2010, 05:42 AM
I don't know alot about that era, but wasn't Joe Louis fighting in the 30's?

Spartacus Sully
01-19-2010, 05:45 AM
what does that have to do with the sport of boxing? What does that have to do with Jeffries not fighting ANY black contenders while he held the title?

wasnt it the law back then? the story shows he wasnt ducking any one and would have fought him if he could.

you say greb took on all contenders and fought every one regardless of color, but were there any laws in place that stated that an african american couldn't fight him at any point during his career? No? so really what you ment was that they all fought every one they were allowed to fight but wait didnt jeffries fight every one he was allowed to fight? i see no diffrence along with no reason to put greb or any one else on a pedastool above jeffries just because they were legally allowed to do stuff he wasnt.

Spartacus Sully
01-19-2010, 05:48 AM
I don't know alot about that era, but wasn't Joe Louis fighting in the 30's?

37-49 hw champ i guess he could be in the running but what he did in those 3 years isnt really all that much compared to other peoples entire carrers

JAB5239
01-19-2010, 06:02 AM
wasnt it the law back then? the story shows he wasnt ducking any one and would have fought him if he could.

you say greb took on all contenders and fought every one regardless of color, but were there any laws in place that stated that an african american couldn't fight him at any point during his career? No? so really what you ment was that they all fought every one they were allowed to fight but wait didnt jeffries fight every one he was allowed to fight? i see no diffrence along with no reason to put greb or any one else on a pedastool above jeffries just because they were legally allowed to do stuff he wasnt.

Nope you're 100% wrong. No laws, just racist beliefs that prevented worthy fighters from getting their shot. Sorry, but Jeffries is guilty of this during his title reign. I know George Dixon won a title in the 1890's and Joe Gans won his lightweight title in 1900, I believe. Are you trying to say these men of color were allowed to fight for world championships but it was illegal for a black heavyweight to do so? :lol1:

You're reaching now my friend.

Spartacus Sully
01-19-2010, 06:22 AM
Nope you're 100% wrong. No laws, just racist beliefs that prevented worthy fighters from getting their shot. Sorry, but Jeffries is guilty of this during his title reign. I know George Dixon won a title in the 1890's and Joe Gans won his lightweight title in 1900, I believe. Are you trying to say these men of color were allowed to fight for world championships but it was illegal for a black heavyweight to do so? :lol1:

You're reaching now my friend.

Im saying that no colored man was allowed to hold the world heavy weight championship belt. they were allowed any other belt except the world heavy weight championship belt. the colored people of the time that were heavy weights would compete for the world colored heavyweight champonship belt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Colored_Heavyweight_Championship

The World Colored Heavyweight Championship was a belt issued to black boxers in the early twentieth century. This was the only heavyweight championship available to blacks prior to Jack Johnson being crowned World Heavyweight Champion.

Though i cant find anything about a law actually being put into place. so maybe it was just as it was though it seems odd to put out the effort of creating a seperate title for african americans if there wasnt any rules keeping them from fighting for the heavy weight title.

JAB5239
01-19-2010, 06:33 AM
Im saying that no colored man was allowed to hold the world heavy weight championship belt. they were allowed any other belt except the world heavy weight championship belt. the colored people of the time that were heavy weights would compete for the world colored heavyweight champonship belt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Colored_Heavyweight_Championship

The World Colored Heavyweight Championship was a belt issued to black boxers in the early twentieth century. This was the only heavyweight championship available to blacks prior to Jack Johnson being crowned World Heavyweight Champion.

There was no law preventing a black heavyweight from fighting for the heavyweight title. What stopped them from doing so was the racist climate of the times and white paranoia. Blacks had been issuing challenges since Peter Jackson tried to get a fight with John L. Sullivan only to be turned down as not worthy because of the color of their skin. Not illegal, frowned upon by a racist society which controlled the sport.

Spartacus Sully
01-19-2010, 06:40 AM
There was no law preventing a black heavyweight from fighting for the heavyweight title. What stopped them from doing so was the racist climate of the times and white paranoia. Blacks had been issuing challenges since Peter Jackson tried to get a fight with John L. Sullivan only to be turned down as not worthy because of the color of their skin. Not illegal, frowned upon by a racist society which controlled the sport.

yeah i see as i mentioned above i also couldn't find anything about a law either.

alright fine jeffries #1 heavyweight pre 1940, greb #1 p4p pre 1940