View Full Version : George Foreman, the Man who made the man that is falsely proclaimed as the man in box


The Troll
05-02-2005, 08:52 AM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif

Ceratogyrus
05-02-2005, 10:48 AM
I would consider Ali's prime to be 1964-1967 during his first title reign. He was so much faster and so much more athletic during this period.
His loss to Leon Spinks is just not relevant as he was years passed his best and out of shape. It is worth noting also that Ken Norton beat Jimmy Young in the same year that Young finished Foreman's first career.
Foreman is an all time great but could never have beaten Ali. In the 60's Ali was too fast and in the 70's too smart. Equally Frazier, Norton, and various other greats including Tyson and Marciano could never have beaten Foreman.

Kid Achilles
05-02-2005, 12:36 PM
Worst troll job ever.

Kid Achilles
05-02-2005, 12:55 PM
So you are serious and really believe that Foreman beat Ali at his prime? I thought you were kidding around and trying to do a bit of trolling. In reality you are serious and actually think Foreman was a better heavyweight than Ali! Incredible!

kapersky
05-02-2005, 12:55 PM
of course foreman was better, if ali dare to open for 1 full round foreman would ko him but he didnt he was too smart for foreman. but i think the 60s ali would dance away and be too fast for foreman. :boxing:

Dynamite76
05-02-2005, 01:37 PM
Foreman wasn't better than Ali, but he's not far behind.

XionComrade
05-02-2005, 02:52 PM
Is Ali really "The Greatest"? Im just curious...

No, Ali didn't lose to Foreman at all, he was obliterated, Ali wasn't even tired or hurt! Yes if Ali opened up Foreman would have put him down, seeing as how Foreman is one of the most powerful punchers to ever live, way over Tyson! FRAZIER DOWN!!! FRAZIER DOWN!!! FRAZIER DOWN!!!!

BoxingPromoter
05-02-2005, 03:34 PM
MCKay, I agree with you that Foreman made his fights with Frasier and Norton look like "no sweat" but this is hardly the case when he fought Lyle. Foreman's bout with Lyle was a slug fest that resembled a Rocky bout and any guy could've won. Foreman if you forgot, was knocked down twice in that bout.

On the otherhand, when Ali fought Lyle at no point in the fight was Ali in danger of losing. As to the stoppage, Lyle would've been eventually stopped via KO or TKO by Ali. There's no doubt about that.

The point is; some fighters match up better than do others. Example; Norton and Frasier gave Ali much trouble while Foreman had no trouble at all. The same can be said about Lyle and Jimmy Young giving Foreman the same trouble.(Ali beat Young,Young beat Foreman)

BoxingPromoter
05-02-2005, 03:40 PM
Ali will always be considered "the greatest" so if you want to proclaim George Foreman the greatest your gonna have to come up with a stronger Argument than the one you have now!

Kid Achilles
05-02-2005, 05:58 PM
"The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. "

I still think he's trying to troll us.

Foreman
05-02-2005, 06:59 PM
There are a few points in this post. Most agree that Ali's prime was'66-'67, but when people make a point about how great Ali was they use the Foreman fight as the holy grail. It's sort of like Elvis. Which Ali comes to mind, the fleet and fast '60's version or the slower heavier '70's version.

Ali was extremely fortunate to come along at a time when the were other legit fighters. How many times has an all time great been denegrated for not having fought another all time great fighter. That is what cemented Ali's legacy.

Foreman would have kicked Ali's ass in a rematch, hands down, no question. Even Ali knew this. From his win over Foreman up until Foreman's retirement, Ali fought: Chuck Wepner, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Joe Frazier, Jean-Pierre Coopman, Isao Aoki, Jimmy Young, Richard Dunn, Ken Norton and Alfred Evangilista(this fight happened just a few months after Foreman retirement, but was already signed). A couple of those guys I never even heard of. If Ali was the "greatest" he would have given a rematch. He fought several other fighters on more than one occasion, why was Foreman so special as to be excluded from that group? Because Ali knew he couldn't win a second time. It's as clear as day.

It's unfortunate that we never got to see a rematch. It's also unfortunate that Ali's refusal probably damaged a great career. Foreman had a hard tme dealing with the fact that Ali was ducking him for so long. Eventually it caught up to him and so did Jimmy Young. Who knows, we could have seen Foreman-Holmes in '78. We may have only had to see Leon Spinks for 2 minutes in '78 :D

My final point is why are people so quick to make excuses for Foreman winning the title at 45, but overlook some of Ali's shortcomings. Winning the title at 45 is a bigger achievement. After all, Ali couldn't do it at 40.

wmute
05-02-2005, 08:24 PM
McKay,

I wrote this for the other thread, but I will copy it here

-Ali's prime is around 74

NO

ali's prime was 64-67

this is a FACT:
he was faster and with better stamina than in the 70s and bigger than when he was 18-22

the fact that he won snd defended the title afterwards just does not change this, it just shows how great he was, even past his physical prime

sonny liston was all "f***ed up" and big george freaked out cos the fight was held in africa... So everytime ali beats someone it's because the someone is in deep psychological trouble...
either you just ali for some reason I don't know
or if you really think it's the case..
well I got news for you, brains matter in boxing, and note that I don't like leonard playing the ***** with hagler or jones circling around opponents and pot shotting them (but this is a way to win, too), but ali never *****ed out of a fight at the negotiation table or fought like a ***** in the ring.

after the 3rd frazier fight he was done
he lost to spinks when he was 36.
and still managed to win back his title

-foreman is greater than ali... and ali just got lucky...

NO

even foreman rates ali above himself among all time HW greats and so do every boxing historian and most fans, except ppl like you who think tyson would ko ali.

all your comparing opposition arguments don't do much: ever heard of the saying "styles make fights", well maybe you did not know that frazier and even moreso norton were built up by futch to beat ali, and on the other hand of the spectrum cus d'amato used to show frazier-foreman to tyson, to show him the wrongest possible style to attack someone like foreman.

you also bring up the Lyle fights, I am not sure it's a grat idea:
foreman was knocked down twice and made the same mistake he made with ali: he punched too much, too soon. Only he was fighting a dumb slugger like him, who did not have ali's chin and witsand KOed him.
so what is that make you so sure that this was not to happen again in a rematch with ali?

as far as ali-lyle goes, (bs stoppage or not, haven't seen the fight in 3 years but it did not seem a bs stoppage at the time, but I will concede that my memory may fail) ali usually won most of the championship rounds ("ali's alley", not for nothing)


-foreman made ali what he is...

NO

he started calling himself the greatest after he beat sonny liston but who cares about what he called himself:
he was always the draw (and a legend because since the liston fights, winning against foreman gave him his second wave of glory), the marciano-ali computerized fights, all the who's better louis or ali barroom chat was older crap than the foreman fight, which just goes to show

cple
05-02-2005, 08:38 PM
My final point is why are people so quick to make excuses for Foreman winning the title at 45, but overlook some of Ali's shortcomings. Winning the title at 45 is a bigger achievement. After all, Ali couldn't do it at 40.

When Ali was in his forties, the heavyweight champions were Larry Holmes, Michael Spinks, and Mike Tyson. Think Foreman could've regained the title if he had to face that type of opposition? Nope.

In my opinion, proclaiming Foreman's comeback as the greatest of all-time is undeserving. Though very impressive, that accomplishment is nothing compared to Eder Jofre's comeback at the age of 37 to beat Jose Legra. Simply mind-blowing. 37 years old is absolutely ancient by lower-weight standards; and to do it against a great fighter of Legra's calibre one division above his best is ridiculous.

Also, a lot of you Ali detracters don't really give Ali credit for beating Foreman. You simply point to the assumption that Foreman would've beaten Ali in a rematch. It didn't happen. So what? Base Ali and Foreman on what happened, not what could've, should've, or would've happened.

wmute
05-02-2005, 08:38 PM
There are a few points in this post. Most agree that Ali's prime was'66-'67, but when people make a point about how great Ali was they use the Foreman fight as the holy grail. It's sort of like Elvis. Which Ali comes to mind, the fleet and fast '60's version or the slower heavier '70's version.

Ali was extremely fortunate to come along at a time when the were other legit fighters. How many times has an all time great been denegrated for not having fought another all time great fighter. That is what cemented Ali's legacy.

Foreman would have kicked Ali's ass in a rematch, hands down, no question. Even Ali knew this. From his win over Foreman up until Foreman's retirement, Ali fought: Chuck Wepner, Ron Lyle, Joe Bugner, Joe Frazier, Jean-Pierre Coopman, Isao Aoki, Jimmy Young, Richard Dunn, Ken Norton and Alfred Evangilista(this fight happened just a few months after Foreman retirement, but was already signed). A couple of those guys I never even heard of. If Ali was the "greatest" he would have given a rematch. He fought several other fighters on more than one occasion, why was Foreman so special as to be excluded from that group? Because Ali knew he couldn't win a second time. It's as clear as day.

It's unfortunate that we never got to see a rematch. It's also unfortunate that Ali's refusal probably damaged a great career. Foreman had a hard tme dealing with the fact that Ali was ducking him for so long. Eventually it caught up to him and so did Jimmy Young. Who knows, we could have seen Foreman-Holmes in '78. We may have only had to see Leon Spinks for 2 minutes in '78 :D

My final point is why are people so quick to make excuses for Foreman winning the title at 45, but overlook some of Ali's shortcomings. Winning the title at 45 is a bigger achievement. After all, Ali couldn't do it at 40.

the foreman fight is used to show ali's greatness because ali beat foreman, and he wasn't even in his prime, I think it is a very logical argument.

as far as not giving a rematch, the only ppl ali rematched after winning the title back are frazier and norton, which both beat ali and gave him more problems than foreman, why should he immediately rematch foreman?
was it close? no

poor foreman he was so sad he lost to jimmy young, now don't get me wrong: foreman is a great fighter but the excuses you make for him are a bit lame.

and I have no if and but for george second reign: he won the lineal HW championship fair and square

BadMagick
05-02-2005, 09:54 PM
of course foreman was better, if ali dare to open for 1 full round foreman would ko him but he didnt he was too smart for foreman. but i think the 60s ali would dance away and be too fast for foreman. :boxing:

Stronger does not equal better.

I think calling McKay an idiot pretty much nullifies any response he can make.

The Troll
05-03-2005, 03:11 AM
Muhammad ALi is so overrated, Sonny Liston was an opium addict or something when ALi fought him and took a dive the second time, and that is the shamefull way ALI won the title. Then Ali lost to a bunch of B class oponnents like Ken Norton in 1971, and Leon Spinks c class oponnent in 1978, and Ali was not ancient when he fought Spinks like you would like to make out he was like 35 or something. I will give him a free pass on the HOlmes fight even though he was only 38. Most of the heavyweights today are 38 and still fighting. Lennox was like 38 when he beat Klistchko.

And Ali was loosing without question on points to LYle but the ref came in and stopped the fight the first time ALI flurried is was a scam and ridiculous.



This is simply a fact

If Ali never beat Foreman there is no way you could possibly contend he was the greatest fighter ever, hence, Foreman is responsible for making Ali the legend he is so many of your minds.

Foreman would have KO'd ALI if they ever re-matched in good old Las Vegas at a regular venue. Without a buch of AFricans screaming die Foreman die in 100 degree heat. Ali can thank the African heat and climate for his victory over Foreman, that rope-a-dope style of his in the 70's was purely ***** ass. I will give credit to ALI though the guy did know how to coverup.

wmute
05-03-2005, 03:40 AM
Sonny Liston was an opium addict or something when ALi fought him

hmm interesting I read "the devil and sonny liston", which is the most complete source of info about liston and the author (who still thinks liston threw BOTH fights), never even thinks that liston was on the needle by that time, but I guess you know better than nick tosches who spent years to find interviewing of friends and relatives of liston, cops and priests who knew him. gosh we are so lucky we can read your posts

If Ali never beat Foreman there is no way you could possibly contend he was the greatest fighter ever, hence, Foreman is responsible for making Ali the legend he is so many of your minds.

no, as i already wrote, in the 60s people were already imaginarily matching him up with joe louis and joe frazier
did beating foreman made him even better in the eyes of people? yes, but he was already considered one of the greatest hws ever

but dammit now I realize you don't even bother reading posts answering yours... norton and norton again and again, did you notice the awkward stance of norton with his right hand the way it was? why do you think it was like that? because Norton was trained to beat ali

and 36, like ali was when he fought spinks, was old for hws at the time, moreso for ali who did not rely on power as his main weapon and fought frazier for 41 rounds, shavers and foreman.

The Troll
05-03-2005, 03:41 AM
hmm interesting I read "the devil and sonny liston", which is the most complete source of info about liston and the author (who still thinks liston threw BOTH fights), never even thinks that liston was on the needle by that time, but I guess you know better than nick tosches who spent years to find interviewing of friends and relatives of liston, cops and priests who knew him. gosh we are so lucky we can read your posts



no, as i already wrote, in the 60s people were already imaginarily matching him up with joe louis and joe frazier
did beating foreman made him even better in the eyes of people? yes, but he was already considered one of the greatest hws ever

but dammit now I realize you don't even bother reading posts answering yours... norton and norton again and again, did you notice the awkward stance of norton with his right hand the way it was? why do you think it was like that? because Norton was trained to beat ali

and 36, like ali was when he fought spinks, was old for hws at the time, moreso for ali who did not rely on power as his main weapon and fought frazier for 41 rounds, shavers and foreman.

your a pure nuthugger and you cannot possibly believe that nonsense you expouse. You deny Sonny Liston's drug problems and taking a dive in one of the fights. People though he was so great for beating LIston because they respect Liston so much, but LIston did not even care about boxing by the time he fought ALi.

What did Liston Accomplish after loosing to ALi? absolutely nothing he made bid for the NABF title and was knocked out in the 5th.

chubb5000
05-03-2005, 12:02 PM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif
Don't believe the hype dude, i kinda agree with you, i think ali is over rated too... please don't ban me

Kid Achilles
05-03-2005, 12:16 PM
Ali not ancient when he fought Spinks? Put the crack pipe down; it's time for some rehab. Ali was not the same fighter he was in his prime as early as 1970. The Ali that fought Frazier in the first fight had already slowed down and so no longer as quick on his feet as he was against Liston and Cleveland Williams. This is a FACT, not my opinion. Ali by the Foreman fight was considered way over the hill. Most people didn't want that fight to happen because they feared for Ali's life. Watch "When We Were Kings" and you will see what guys like Cosell thought about Ali's chances.

The Troll
05-03-2005, 12:19 PM
Ali not ancient when he fought Spinks? Put the crack pipe down; it's time for some rehab. Ali was not the same fighter he was in his prime as early as 1970. The Ali that fought Frazier in the first fight had already slowed down and so no longer as quick on his feet. This is a FACT, not my opinion.

Todays heavyweights may suck so bad that there's little difference between how they fight at 30 and 34 but back when heavyweight boxers were talented athletes and the division was as fiercely competitive as the lower weightclasses, you were considered an old man at 34. Hell Holyfield at 34 was consider an old guy when he fought Tyson and that was in 1996. It's only recently that the heavyweights have gotten so bad that the older guys can still hang on and middleweights can invade the division.

He was spry enough to win a UD over Shavers 5 months prior.

Kid Achilles
05-03-2005, 12:24 PM
So? Shavers, though he was a hard puncher, was beaten by Tex Cobb, Ron Lyle, journeyman Ron Standers (knocked out in five rounds!!), and KO'ed in a single round by Jerry Quarry. In addition to this, he was decisioned by a guy named Bob Stallings who had a 20-24-0 record.

Aside from punching power, Shavers just wasn't a very good boxer.

Floydmayweather
05-03-2005, 05:45 PM
Ali had a mental edge over everyone and his losses except were the first Frasier fight which was just after a 3 year layoff was due to being an old man. And Foreman would never beat Ali took his best shots and just said is that as hard as you can hit. He would do that in every time they fought and after the first fight Forman would doubt himself and lose even worse. ALi is the greatest look at who he beat and how. Not to mention his best years were taken away and he still won. Peace ;)

Shaolin Bushido
05-04-2005, 04:34 AM
LOL at the title of this thread. Muhammad Ali, actually Cassius Clay in his prime is the GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION EVA!!!

BoxingPromoter
05-04-2005, 11:21 AM
MCKay, I agree with you that Foreman made his fights with Frasier and Norton look like "no sweat" but this is hardly the case when he fought Lyle. Foreman's bout with Lyle was a slug fest that resembled a Rocky bout and any guy could've won. Foreman if you forgot, was knocked down twice in that bout.

On the otherhand, when Ali fought Lyle at no point in the fight was Ali in danger of losing. As to the stoppage, Lyle would've been eventually stopped via KO or TKO by Ali. There's no doubt about that.

The point is; some fighters match up better than do others. Example; Norton and Frasier gave Ali much trouble while Foreman had no trouble at all. The same can be said about Lyle and Jimmy Young giving Foreman the same trouble.(Ali beat Young,Young beat Foreman)

McKay, I've noticed you haven't touched my argument.Is that because you rewatched the Lyle vs Foreman and Ali fights? ;)

The Troll
05-04-2005, 01:41 PM
McKay, I've noticed you haven't touched my argument.Is that because you rewatched the Lyle vs Foreman and Ali fights? ;)

I dont know why you are trying to make a big deal out of the Lyle fight. Foreman was knocked down twice in the 4th but the point is he got up like a true champion and put Lyle on his ass and kept him there in the 5th like a true champion does. Knocked his ass his out cold.

Ali on other hand against Lyle was loosing every single round, then all ALi he did was flurry wildly once in the 8th round and the ref came in stopped the fight. One of the worst stoppages ever. Lyle was not hurt or anything, Ali was not even connecting with Lyle in most of that flurry. If the ref did not pull that bull**** stoppage Ali was doomed to lose a Wide UD.

BoxingPromoter
05-04-2005, 02:22 PM
I dont know why you are trying to make a big deal out of the Lyle fight. Foreman was knocked down twice in the 4th but the point is he got up like a true champion and put Lyle on his ass and kept him there in the 5th like a true champion does. Knocked his ass his out cold.

Ali on other hand against Lyle was loosing every single round, then all ALi he did was flurry wildly once in the 8th round and the ref came in stopped the fight. One of the worst stoppages ever. Lyle was not hurt or anything, Ali was not even connecting with Lyle in most of that flurry. If the ref did not pull that bull**** stoppage Ali was doomed to lose a Wide UD.

For the record, Ali wasn't losing every round and if the ref did not stop the fight then, he would've stopped it sooner or later because Lyle was getting hit with clean shots otherwise he wouldn't have fell back on the ropes. Can anyone else on this forum who has seen the fight either comfirm my assertions or McKay's?

BadMagick
05-05-2005, 10:26 AM
Muhammad ALi is so overrated, Sonny Liston was an opium addict or something when ALi fought him and took a dive the second time, and that is the shamefull way ALI won the title. Then Ali lost to a bunch of B class oponnents like Ken Norton in 1971, and Leon Spinks c class oponnent in 1978, and Ali was not ancient when he fought Spinks like you would like to make out he was like 35 or something. I will give him a free pass on the HOlmes fight even though he was only 38. Most of the heavyweights today are 38 and still fighting. Lennox was like 38 when he beat Klistchko.

And Ali was loosing without question on points to LYle but the ref came in and stopped the fight the first time ALI flurried is was a scam and ridiculous.



This is simply a fact

If Ali never beat Foreman there is no way you could possibly contend he was the greatest fighter ever, hence, Foreman is responsible for making Ali the legend he is so many of your minds.

Foreman would have KO'd ALI if they ever re-matched in good old Las Vegas at a regular venue. Without a buch of AFricans screaming die Foreman die in 100 degree heat. Ali can thank the African heat and climate for his victory over Foreman, that rope-a-dope style of his in the 70's was purely ***** ass. I will give credit to ALI though the guy did know how to coverup.

Saying he wasn't old in that fight is like saying Roy Jones wasn't old in his fights against Tarver and Johnson. It's ****ing retarded.

Foreman would have lost ANYWHERE, because he punched himself out. Yeah, the heat contributed to it, but he would have punched himself out later in the fight, because he was pissed off, and tried to kill Ali. Also, Ali PROBABLY wouldn't have done the same thing if it wasn't in Africa, so Foreman still loses, but this time by UD.

I fail to see how your opinion on a matter suddenly becomes fact. Ali would be considered one of the greatest fighter ever, with or without fighting Big George. He's more recognizable because of it, but it was not his career defining fight. He would ALWAYS be considered great for the way he danced around the ring, his reflexes, and his hand speed, which were extraordinary for a heavy weight. No one says, "Ali is the greatest because he beat Foreman by laying on the ropes," they say, "He moved like no other heavyweight ever," which we saw NONE of in the the Rumble in the Jungle.

kapersky
05-05-2005, 10:50 AM
of course ali was far away from his prime vs spinks,holmes etc he had been in several wars than any fighter, i cant see how he still could keep fighting after vs fraizer 1(all those lefthook he took from fraizer). but he did and and became champion. i like those with big heart,will and chin than puncher like mike tyson he did some great(in his prime) thing and ko a lot of fighter but in witch fight did he show a true champion heart?, if he cant ko he got ko. but ali on the other hand always came back and keep fighting even when he was hurt he keep continue or even if he loss or win he still a winner.

The Troll
05-05-2005, 11:06 AM
Saying he wasn't old in that fight is like saying Roy Jones wasn't old in his fights against Tarver and Johnson. It's ****ing retarded.

Foreman would have lost ANYWHERE, because he punched himself out. Yeah, the heat contributed to it, but he would have punched himself out later in the fight, because he was pissed off, and tried to kill Ali. Also, Ali PROBABLY wouldn't have done the same thing if it wasn't in Africa, so Foreman still loses, but this time by UD.

I fail to see how your opinion on a matter suddenly becomes fact. Ali would be considered one of the greatest fighter ever, with or without fighting Big George. He's more recognizable because of it, but it was not his career defining fight. He would ALWAYS be considered great for the way he danced around the ring, his reflexes, and his hand speed, which were extraordinary for a heavy weight. No one says, "Ali is the greatest because he beat Foreman by laying on the ropes," they say, "He moved like no other heavyweight ever," which we saw NONE of in the the Rumble in the Jungle.

How would anybody be able to contend that ALI was the greatest boxer of all time if his only quality wins came against Frazier, who he lost to and struggled to death with, Liston who was an opium addict and involved with the mafia and ****. And especially considering he lost to Norton and Frazier and George destroyed both of them, and that takes alot of credibility out of the wins Ali got from Frazier and Norton. It would be impossible to contend that ALi was the greatest ever simply because he beat Sonny Liston and Floyd Patterson. Struggled to death with Frazier who Foreman obliterated, struggled to death with Norton who Foreman obliterated.

YOu would be going on the Sonny Liston win alone. Liston did not even care about boxig by the time Ali fought him. What did Liston do in boxing after loosing to ALI? Absolutely nothing, he fought a few more fights made a bid for the NABF title and was knocked out in the 5th.

kapersky
05-05-2005, 11:23 AM
How would anybody be able to contend that ALI was the greatest boxer of all time if his only quality wins came against Frazier, who he lost to and struggled to death with, Liston who was an opium addict and involved with the mafia and ****. And especially considering he lost to Norton and Frazier and George destroyed both of them, and that takes alot of credibility out of the wins Ali got from Frazier and Norton. It would be impossible to contend that ALi was the greatest ever simply because he beat Sonny Liston and Floyd Patterson. Struggled to death with Frazier who Foreman obliterated, struggled to death with Norton who Foreman obliterated.

YOu would be going on the Sonny Liston win alone. Liston did not even care about boxig by the time Ali fought him. What did Liston do in boxing after loosing to ALI? Absolutely nothing, he fought a few more fights made a bid for the NABF title and was knocked out in the 5th.

he lost to them both but beated them later that is a true warrior, and he ko foreman,liston and fough the best att that time and beat them all and he wasent in his prime. but foreman was probably his best win.

Floydmayweather
05-06-2005, 09:36 PM
Ali beat 3 heavyweights which are regarded as top 10 all time. He beat 2 Foreman, and Frasier outside of his prime. Through in wins over Shavers, Quarry, Floyd Patterson, among others and you have the greatest Heavyweight ever, Ali! ;)

Imira
05-07-2005, 06:51 AM
McKay, you say Ali struggled with Frazier and Norton. I don't know what you're trying to imply, but Frazier is no tomato can. It takes a hell of a lot to beat that man in the ring. If Ali tried to take Frazier lightly at any time, he would get killed. Plain and simple. Norton gave Ali trouble because of his style, which was meant to counter Ali's. I don't care who you are, but if one person trained exculsively to beat you, you've got a real fight on your hands. You can't admonish Ali for his fights against two future hall of famers and then turn around and ignore the fact that Foreman blew out nobody of note before he fought Frazier and (even he said himself) he was lucky to even get his title shot when he did.

Also, you're making the usual argument that, Foreman destroyed Norton and Frazier. So what? He's a heavy handed puncher. That's his style. Ali struggled with them. So what? He's a boxer. The style differences must be taken into account.

I'm not taking anything away from Foreman, but try to give Ali a little more respect, because, no matter how much you want the facts to go away, Ali KO'd Foreman in 8 rounds in 1974. Period.

Also, you need to get your facts straight. Liston was KO'd in the 9th round in his bid for the NABF title. He also went 14 fights without a single loss over a 3 year period. That's more than "a few fights".

The Troll
05-07-2005, 03:29 PM
McKay, you say Ali struggled with Frazier and Norton. I don't know what you're trying to imply, but Frazier is no tomato can. It takes a hell of a lot to beat that man in the ring. If Ali tried to take Frazier lightly at any time, he would get killed. Plain and simple. Norton gave Ali trouble because of his style, which was meant to counter Ali's. I don't care who you are, but if one person trained exculsively to beat you, you've got a real fight on your hands. You can't admonish Ali for his fights against two future hall of famers and then turn around and ignore the fact that Foreman blew out nobody of note before he fought Frazier and (even he said himself) he was lucky to even get his title shot when he did.

Also, you're making the usual argument that, Foreman destroyed Norton and Frazier. So what? He's a heavy handed puncher. That's his style. Ali struggled with them. So what? He's a boxer. The style differences must be taken into account.

I'm not taking anything away from Foreman, but try to give Ali a little more respect, because, no matter how much you want the facts to go away, Ali KO'd Foreman in 8 rounds in 1974. Period.

Also, you need to get your facts straight. Liston was KO'd in the 9th round in his bid for the NABF title. He also went 14 fights without a single loss over a 3 year period. That's more than "a few fights".

Of course Norton trained to specifically beat Ali, so do all fighters in when preparing for their upcoming opponent, they train specifically to beat that opponent. Especially if they are facing Cassius Clay for a heavyweight title they train extra hard and for extra amount of time.

Like right now while Tzyu is sparring in Australia he asks his sparring partners to try to simulate fighting him the same way Ricky Hatton fights. All fighters do this, all fighters probably have always done this.

Your saying that because Norton was exceptionally well prepared for his fight against Ali, his glory in winning that fight is diminished, that is quite ridiculous logic.

BoxingPromoter
05-08-2005, 01:15 PM
I just watched the"rumble" for the 100th time on ESPN classic and there is no doubt in my mind that Ali would've beat Foreman anytime before 1974 when he was in his prime. Ali dominated the whole fight from beginning to finish. George Foreman didn't stand a chance, he was just outclassed in every way. Ali landed every jab,right cross, and combination at will and basically used Foreman's face as a punching bag. ;) When I hear people make excuses for Foreman saying 'he punched himself out and he should've boxed in the middle of ring', I laugh because the same results would've occurred; George Foreman being outboxed and knocked out because he had no defense whatsoever against Ali's superior boxing skills.

What I will admit is; After the 'thrilla' with Frasier, Ali was very much past his prime and showing the first signs of Parkinsons disease and would have not been able to withstand Foreman's power and aggressiveness. If Ali and Foreman had rematched in period, I believe Ali would've been Ko'd by George. But if you match up Ali-Foreman in his prime, Ali wins everytime no doubt.

wmute
05-08-2005, 03:11 PM
Of course Norton trained to specifically beat Ali, so do all fighters in when preparing for their upcoming opponent, they train specifically to beat that opponent. Especially if they are facing Cassius Clay for a heavyweight title they train extra hard and for extra amount of time.

Like right now while Tzyu is sparring in Australia he asks his sparring partners to try to simulate fighting him the same way Ricky Hatton fights. All fighters do this, all fighters probably have always done this.

Your saying that because Norton was exceptionally well prepared for his fight against Ali, his glory in winning that fight is diminished, that is quite ridiculous logic.

I will try to make it simple for you

zoo is training for hatton now, right?

but he was not training for hatton say 2 years ago, right?

norton trained for ali before the fight, right? just like zoo...
but

norton started training for ali a long time before fighting him

also styles make fights: duran almost decisioned hagler, who KOed Hearns in 3, who KOed duran in 2 with one punch...

that's the same case with ali-foreman-frazier (or norton)

in particular for norton, why was he able to be a problem for ali?

1)jab, and defense from jab
2)pressure
3)fight plan: cut off plus go to the body

is any of this useful against foreman? no

why does ali beat foreman?
1)chin
2)heart
3)smarts
4)handspeed
5)chin
6)chin
...

did he need those against norton? well chin, heart and smarts, of course, but not in the same amount needed to beat big george.
and his handspeed was neutralized by norton tactic and defense

The_One77
05-08-2005, 03:41 PM
I just watched the"rumble" for the 100th time on ESPN classic and there is no doubt in my mind that Ali would've beat Foreman anytime before 1974 when he was in his prime. Ali dominated the whole fight from beginning to finish. George Foreman didn't stand a chance, he was just outclassed in every way. Ali landed every jab,right cross, and combination at will and basically used Foreman's face as a punching bag. ;) When I hear people make excuses for Foreman saying 'he punched himself out and he should've boxed in the middle of ring', I laugh because the same results would've occurred; George Foreman being outboxed and knocked out because he had no defense whatsoever against Ali's superior boxing skills.

What I will admit is; After the 'thrilla' with Frasier, Ali was very much past his prime and showing the first signs of Parkinsons disease and would have not been able to withstand Foreman's power and aggressiveness. If Ali and Foreman had rematched in period, I believe Ali would've been Ko'd by George. But if you match up Ali-Foreman in his prime, Ali wins everytime no doubt.

yeah, i h8 it when people say that foreman was beating the **** out of ali against the ropes for the whole 8 rounds, they forget to mention that ali dominated the fight and landed most of the punches at foreman. Foreman was not skilled enough to beat ali, although ali was on the ropes he also was beating foreman to the punch and defending most of foreman's punches.
So i don't see foreman really beating ali in a rematch.

Ali: He's nothing but a slow moving mummy... when i'm finished with him he'll have so many nicks and cuts he'll look like he had a bad morning shave.

Imira
05-08-2005, 08:52 PM
I will try to make it simple for you

zoo is training for hatton now, right?

but he was not training for hatton say 2 years ago, right?

norton trained for ali before the fight, right? just like zoo...
but

norton started training for ali a long time before fighting him

also styles make fights: duran almost decisioned hagler, who KOed Hearns in 3, who KOed duran in 2 with one punch...

that's the same case with ali-foreman-frazier (or norton)

in particular for norton, why was he able to be a problem for ali?

1)jab, and defense from jab
2)pressure
3)fight plan: cut off plus go to the body

is any of this useful against foreman? no

why does ali beat foreman?
1)chin
2)heart
3)smarts
4)handspeed
5)chin
6)chin
...

did he need those against norton? well chin, heart and smarts, of course, but not in the same amount needed to beat big george.
and his handspeed was neutralized by norton tactic and defense

At least somebody was reading what I posted.

The Troll
05-10-2005, 03:21 PM
Foreman would win on points in the rematch no question. In a nice air conditoned lobby in good ole Las Vegas Foreman would not be outsmarted a 2nd time and bring the right game plan. Clay knew that, that is why he ducked Foreman from 1974 until his retirement. The so called greatest ever, was not confident about himself to give Foreman a rematch. duck duck goose.

wmute
05-10-2005, 08:45 PM
Foreman would win on points in the rematch no question. In a nice air conditoned lobby in good ole Las Vegas Foreman would not be outsmarted a 2nd time and bring the right game plan. Clay knew that, that is why he ducked Foreman from 1974 until his retirement. The so called greatest ever, was not confident about himself to give Foreman a rematch. duck duck goose.

big surprise... you are changing subject... again

ok

tell us how would the rematch look like round by round (assuming ali is in pre thrilla in manila shape

tommyhearns804
06-04-2005, 07:53 PM
haha foreman a dumb slugger but yet he could fight to the age of 48 and not end up having brain damage so who is dumb foreman or ali?ali himself said if he could be foreman it would prove he was the greatest.
and why is it that only ali is past his prime at 30?as i said foreman could fight to 48 lewis fought to he was about 40 most other champions were still champions into their 30s bu ali was done at 26?get the hell out of here.he was just a fast when he came back as before he was banned from boxing.just watch the quarry fight.he looked just like he did when he was in his 20s but do you know why?becuase ali only looked fast when he was fight slow footed guys who just followed him around.did he look fast against doug jones?nope he sure didnt.his best win in the first part of his career of was over liston.big freaking deal.who was liston?nothing at all.beating floyd patterson makes you a legend now?does that mean you can punch because you can knock out a glass chin middleweight who fought at heavyweight?not really.
ali fought better guys when he retured.and most of them he lost too.norton was robbed in their 3rd fight and probably won their second one as well.lyle was weigh at head on points and would of probably won if the fight wasnt stopped so quickly.why wasnt the fight stopped when foreman had him in trouble in the second round of the lyle foreman fight?young also beat ali and so did shavers but they were both robbed.
foreamn was light years better than ali.ali had faster hands and that is it.he wasnt the better puncher he didnt have the better chin.again foreman fought until he was 48 and had 30 fights after he was 38 and never went down while ali was getting knocked down by copper and being beat around the ring by frazier.george had a more durable body george had everything you wanted in a fighter.the reason he lost to ali was because george was ****y as hell.he had no respect for ali.when you become so ****y that you think you cant lose eventually you will lose.it happened to tyson vs douglas louis vs max shmeling lewis vs rahman but i bet none of you think douglas is better than tyson do you?it was one fight..just one lucky fight.
ali didnt give foreman a rematch but he was willing to fight norton 3 times frazier 3 times liston 2 times cooper 2 times patterson 2 times spinks 2 times quarry 2 times but foreman only one time.what does that tell you?ali knew he was lucky.he said himself that he was out on his feet about 5 times against foreman but foreman never landed any clean punches.do you think he could of fought foreman again and lucked up?i doubt it.ali knew this so fought guys he could beat.sure fraizer would be tough.but he knew he could win.he knew norton couldnt knock him out but foreman could.
ali also claimed foreman was way to fast for him on his feet to outbox so that is why he had to lay on the ropes hoping foreman got tired.so if ali said foreman had good foot speed then evidently he did.evidently foreman didnt have slow hands of norton would of easily outboxed foreman.infact nobody outboxed a prime foreman.he got tired against ali punching him as he layed against the ropes.and against young he really didnt want to be there.he didnt train at all and just followed young around the ring for the most part not even trying.the way you beat a prime foreman was to pray to god he didnt know you out.there was no blue print to beat him.none of this well if you got past 5 rounds you could beat him.he only got tired in 2 fights out of 47..45 wins 2 loses and 42 ko's and some of those kos came late.
ali had got tired just a often as foreman if not more so.the only difference is ali would hold on and talk when he got tired and foreman just continued to punch the few times he got tired.and if you are going to talk about a fighter getting tired then why not tyson?why not lewis ?they both got tired late in the fight far more than foreman.
you know why ali is considered to be the greatest?because he lucked up and beat foreman.that and the fact he has brain damage and people feel sorry for them.you know why people think marciano is better than foreman or any true heavyweight?because they have mental problems.185 dont make you a heavyweight period.
i dont have a problem with people saying ali was good.but when you try to make him out to be something he never was is what bothers me.great hand speed and great heart and a big mouth is all he ever had.

paul750
06-05-2005, 01:07 PM
Foreman would win on points in the rematch no question. In a nice air conditoned lobby in good ole Las Vegas Foreman would not be outsmarted a 2nd time and bring the right game plan. Clay knew that, that is why he ducked Foreman from 1974 until his retirement. The so called greatest ever, was not confident about himself to give Foreman a rematch. duck duck goose.
it's a pretty well known fact that great sluggers always have trouble with great boxers, foreman would never have had trouble with guys who came to him, just as he showed in the joe frazier fights.

but he would always have had trouble with ali, just as he did with jimmy young, that's what makes boxing the great sport it is, because styles make fights, foreman would have always struggled with the great ''boxers''.

Ricomania77
06-05-2005, 09:37 PM
a great slugger always seems to struggle with a great pure 'boxers'
think Ali-Foreman, Leonard-Duran, Mayorga-Spinks, Tito-Winky

TheGreat1
06-05-2005, 10:14 PM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif

Damn McKay, what a great post. I have been stating these fact forever, but never put it all together in one great post like this. Foreman was the man.

Pugnacious_Z
06-06-2005, 02:56 AM
Foreman is the real Greatest, not ALI

Kid Achilles
06-06-2005, 10:52 AM
You're right about one thing and that's it. Ali wasn't the greatest: that honor goes to Joe Louis.

Foreman is around 5 or 6 on my list.

adeelr
06-06-2005, 02:24 PM
Dude your opinion is messed, Ali's was a far better fighter than foreman was, the way i look at it Ali exposed foreman, and if they were to have a rematch Ali would have humiliated him even more. Ali had been saying he was the greatest and was always right, why are you forgetting the fights with frazier, foreman was able to destroy frazier because of his size, he was no way more technically sound than frazier.

SonnyG8R
06-11-2005, 04:40 PM
McKay swings and misses!!!

Sorry dude but you have e lot of learning to do before you start giving lessons in boxing history.

ricecrispi
06-12-2005, 04:10 AM
George foreman in his prime was a one dimensional fighter. He had a paltry defense, and his offense was to hit you with anything he had because he was a genetic freak who was super strong slugger.
He lasted in the 90s because he learned cover up (archie moore cross arm defense that allowed archie to fight as long as he did). He wasn't hit that much as a boxer thoughout his 1st career and that allowed him to fight in his 40's. He had success in his 40's because he still had punching power that you had to respect and had a great boxing IQ at that point.
He is a helluva a guy and his grills are awesome!!
Gotta love the guy but he loves braggin about himself. Can't blame him!

How can you claim Ali was in his prime after he came back. Yeah he won his best fights afterwards but that doesn't prove he was in his prime, it shows you how great he was by win after it.
Ali was beautiful in his prime. I don't know how you could confuse it if you ever saw it. It was art, ballet, music, fighting, and attitude rolled into one. Guys would flail at him and he would dance. Almost mocking them like if he was saying "hit me if you can chump, I'm right in front of you." He would say predict knockouts in round X. Dance around teasing the guy for several rounds. X round comes around and knock the guy out.
no one can ever do that again..
He basically embrassed Liston so bad Liston gave up those fights. You also forget Ali fought before and after Liston. That was not the begining or end of his prime.

In the end Ali has the mentality of being the "greatest".
Foreman thought he had it till Ali showed him what it really meant. It was a pyschological battle of will power and Ali proved to Foreman that he had a much more of it than Foreman.
Foreman could've dragged ali through the jungle and down to hell and Ali would've beaten him. Ali was a master of pysch games.
Ali fukd up Foreman's head really bad and George faced his own personal demons. Read the book and you know about it.
Foreman doubted himself years after that. How could you claim Foreman was the greatest when admitted himself he doubted himself and had to prove to himself by fighting again in the 80's and 90's. Ow yeah he had to find god to help him and changed his whole outlook on life.

Not only that, Ali was stripped of his pride and joy and the thing he loved the most, boxing. The US government was against him and still was able to fight on and win. You think Foreman could deal with that and still continue on with his career? The guy retired due to a single loss.

Determination, heart, courage, and willpower also make determine who's a great champ. Not just ko's, wins against who, when, and where.
Ultimately that is what boxing is about, and why people watch boxing. They want to see gatti battle or corrales get up and win a match by knockout. That's why I like George, he came back to prove himself again and did it with a smile.

czars_salad
06-12-2005, 05:14 AM
You're right about one thing and that's it. Ali wasn't the greatest: that honor goes to Joe Louis.

Foreman is around 5 or 6 on my list.
for me ali, may not be the greatest boxer, nor the greatest athlete, but he was the greatest sportsman and entertainer combined ;)

SonnyG8R
06-12-2005, 03:23 PM
You're right about one thing and that's it. Ali wasn't the greatest: that honor goes to Joe Louis.

Foreman is around 5 or 6 on my list.

In your opinion.

Slipx
06-24-2005, 06:18 AM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif

be lookin for respect from me from now on.

edit-i feel bad for being a dickhead to you now haha

Easy-E
07-15-2005, 06:50 PM
"Ali got lucky, and in the rematch, foreman would have beaten his ass."

Your fighting a losing batte there. Ali won, in fact, he didnt just win, he knocked foreman out. Whos to say ali couldnt do the same thing again to foreman? Ali is the better boxer, and proved it to everyone that night

anwaryussuf81
07-15-2005, 08:06 PM
Are you serious? The guy who started this thread doesn't know anything about boxing. Ali was in his prime in his first title reign and liston did not take a dive in the second fight. look a the replay, Ali hit him with a solid right hand. He beat liston twice. Liston was concidered unbeatable, same as foreman. Oh, and look who did the impossible, his name is "Ali". Foreman didn't make Ali the man. Ali made himself into "the greatest of All Time". Ali beat the greatest fighters in his era and many of those fighters are concidered the best of all time. Ali beat Norton twice, Frazier Twice, He lost to spinks because Ali was way out of his prime and it was at the end of his career. He did come back to beat spinks for the belt. So before you put down Ali, think before you post something. Period.

chopper77
07-18-2005, 05:04 PM
McKay just how much of that Bacardi did you ingest before you started this? George Foreman was one of the absolute worst fighters in the heavyweight division of ALL time. He punched hard, big whoop. Can you, in your inebriated state say Jimmy Young? Man, I remeber watching that fight waiting for one of those big sloppy haymakers to land on Youngs head, yet Jimmy moved liked silk, and made the big dummy look even stupider than Ali did. Worst thread ever!!!

The Troll
07-18-2005, 05:43 PM
McKay just how much of that Bacardi did you ingest before you started this? George Foreman was one of the absolute worst fighters in the heavyweight division of ALL time. He punched hard, big whoop. Can you, in your inebriated state say Jimmy Young? Man, I remeber watching that fight waiting for one of those big sloppy haymakers to land on Youngs head, yet Jimmy moved liked silk, and made the big dummy look even stupider than Ali did. Worst thread ever!!!

I think it is actually pretty good article that comes from an alternative viewpoint. Since I wrote the article I have come to respect Ali more than I did then. However I think he is overrated in his early career. Liston laid down in the second fight and Floyd Patterson was not by any means one of the greatest champs ever. Those are the highlight of Ali's 1960's accomplishments. When it was only 1970 and he fought Joe Frazier the first time, he lost. And Ali at that time was closest to what you call his prime. Yet in 1975 he beat Frazier in a brutal war. I think like somebody else said Ali hit harder and was smarter in the 70's than in his early career.

most of Ali's biggest wins are in 70's

George Foreman
Oscar Bonavena
Ron Lyle
Joe Frazier x2
Jimmy Ellis
Jerry Quarry x2
Floyd Patterson by stoppage
Ken Norton
Jimmy Young
George Chuvalo

1960's accomplishments

Liston x2 (Liston without a doubt laid down in the second fight. And if you look at Liston's record after he fought Ali it is rather pathetic. He beat nobody of note and was eventually knocked out early in a bid for the NABF title.)

Zora Foley (was already way past his prime when he fought ali in 1967. Again if you look at his record post Ali loss he is 5-3-2. Including a loss to Brian London (36-15) in 1967. A loss to Bonavena in 1968. A draw with Roger Russel 11-1 in 1968, a draw with Al Jones 24-1 in 1968, and KO 1 loss to Mac Foster 24-1 in 1970, that was the last fight of Foley's career.)

Archie Moore (1962) (Moore began his career in 1935 lol)

George Chuvalo
Floyd Patterson by descison


If I left somebody out from teh 60's list let me know. Ali ducked the **** out Foreman after their fight in 1974. Like others have said. He fought Quarry twice, Mildenberger twice, Norton 3 times, Frazier 3 times, Patterson twice, yet no rematch for Foreman. Which is ridiculous because when Ali was fighting Frazier in 1975 in the Phillipines Frazier had recently been KO'd in the 2nd by Foreman and Frazier gave him hell in that fight. Ali said after the fight with Frazier he would fight Foreman again and he never did.

Kid Achilles
07-18-2005, 10:27 PM
Ali resume was better in the 70's simply because there were better opponents around. The Ali who whupped Liston would have done the same to Foreman and he wouldn't have needed to employ the rope a dope. Also, Ali was certainly worse off post exile and the version that fought Frazier had already slowed down.

Foreman is far from one of the worst heavyweight champions, and he surely makes my top ten list, but to say he was better or greater than Ali is just fantasy.

Ali_is_the_greatest17
07-28-2005, 02:13 AM
How do you say that Foreman is better than Ali....if Ali beat him???

Ali_is_the_greatest17
07-28-2005, 02:15 AM
"Ali got lucky, and in the rematch, foreman would have beaten his ass."

Your fighting a losing batte there. Ali won, in fact, he didnt just win, he knocked foreman out. Whos to say ali couldnt do the same thing again to foreman? Ali is the better boxer, and proved it to everyone that night

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Tha Greatest
07-28-2005, 05:28 AM
McKAY!!

SHUT THE **** UP SERIOUSLY YOU ****IN MORON!

ALIS WINS OVER LISTON OVERRATED??

WELL WHO CARES ABOUT HIS 2nd, but watch his first fight and you will see one of the most beautiful fought fights you'll ever see....dumb ****..

rocco1252
07-28-2005, 04:32 PM
brains are better than power and what what ali did to foreman was use his brains, there is no way Foreman is a better heavyweight than Ali and his fight with Frazier is what made him the greatest and known at that point. At no time in Foremans career could he have beaten Ali unfortunately to say considering I like Foreman more than Ali. Foreman is in with the top 10 heavyweights but in no way is he ahead of Ali and in no way was he soley responsible for making Ali who he was today.

tommyhearns804
07-30-2005, 11:32 AM
Ali didn't use anything to beat Foreman.It was just one fight.Pure luck.Is Douglas better than Tyson?Did he out think Tyson or did Tyson just have a bad night and Douglas took advantage and won?Evidently Ali thought he couldn't beat Foreman again and that is the main reason Foreman couldn't get re-match.And if you are going to say Foreman beating Frazier made him great then exactly who did Ali beat to make him great?It had to be a combination of him beating Frazier,Norton, and Foreman.If he would of stayed retired and never fought the 3 fighters i just mention nobody in here would be saying he was great.Infact Foreman would of never lost in his prime.If anything we would all be talking about how great Foreman is instead of Ali.

Easy-E
07-30-2005, 05:33 PM
wow, absolutly not the truth. Luck??
the reason douglas beat tyson was because tyson was out of shape, without a proper trainer, and because he thought the fight was going to be cake, and was suprised and unprepared.
Foreman got his ass kicked, watch the fight agian, ali was dominating the entire fight, controlling the pace and winning rounds. he made foreman look like the bum he was. i will gurantee you have NO IDEA about the circimstances concerning the rematch, but if there was one, ali would have dominated again. he is simply a better, smarter boxer then foreman, and tyson douglass is a horrible comparison

tommyhearns804
07-31-2005, 01:03 AM
Lol first PBF if you want to talk about somebody getting dominated then Ali was crushed by Frazier in their first fight.Norton dominated Ali in all 3 of their fights by got robbed 2 times.If you want to use the only well Tyson only lost to Douglas because he was ****y and he didnt train then that same excuse has to be used for Foreman.But the only difference is Foreman never really trained.Do you know Foreman?Nope but the people around him at that time did and said Foreman rarely trained period and when he did it was usually just a few rounds of sparring.After Foreman beat Frazier his ego grew to such a level he trully believe he couldnt lose.He started cheating on his wife and doing alot of other stuff.
And as for the fight evidently you havent watched it.Ali dominating Foreman?Only if you are mentally retarded.Foreman was the one in control up until he got tired.Ali stated himself that Foreman had him out on his feet 5 plus times doing the fight.But Foreman never landed a clean blow to Ali's head so i guess glancing blows hurt Ali.Ali said he knew he could never out box Foreman because Foreman was to fast.Ali also said he knew as long as Foreman was fresh he couldn't try to engage him period.And i think Ali would know more about this than some little boy who think he knows boxing.
Ali didn't fight Foreman again because he knew he would lose and he was lucky to get a win the first time.Ali instead fought Norton again Frazier again.He fought some Japenese wrestler guy instead of giving Foreman a re-match.Ali gave everbody else a re-match didn't he.He had no problem fight some fighters 3 time times.But yet Foreman couldn't get one more chance to prove he was better than Ali.You can find excuses about why they didnt fight but i gave you the right reason.Saddler and Moore kept trying to get Ali back in the ring but Ali knew he wouldnt win.So Foreman tried to get Holmes in the ring just in case he did get another shot at Ali but Holmes people wanted no part of Foreman.Foreman began to lose his desire fight fight and the ended up fighting Young and as you know he lost and Retired.
You know why people will say Ali is the greatest?Because they feel sorry for him.They feel sorry for the brain damage he got from people like Frazier and Norton and Shavers.Foreman has had more fights than Ali.30 of those fights after the age of 38.Does Foreman have any evidence of brain damage?Nope and do you know why?Because he is the greatest.He doesnt have to have people like you feel bad for him.He doenst have to run off at the mouth like Ali did and pay for it.He did his job and went home.He crushed legends.Even when he was old he made young good fighters run from him like cowards.Ali was done at 36 years of age.By then he was losing to people like Spinks.Do you believe a 36 year old Foreman would lose to Spinks?Hell no.Do you think a 40 year old Foreman would lose to Berbick?Hell no.Do you know why again?Because Foreman is the best.Tyson was crushed by Douglas i dont care what excuse you make the point is he was crushed.But is he better than Tyson?Hell no.Tyson would of beat Douglas down if they fought again.Was Scmhelling better than Joe Louis?Nope but he crushed Louis in their first fight the only difference is Louis had a chance to redeem himself and Foreman didnt.
Beating Foreman made Ali's career.Well Norton and Frazier help to make it but Ali never beat Norton.If Ali never fought Foreman he would only be known as a loud mouth who was almost knocked out with one punch by Cooper.Even people like Tyson would beat Ali 9/10 times if they fought.Lewis would be to much for him.So would Bowe.But keep living in this dream world where Ali is the greatest and i will keep living in the real world where Foreman is still healthy and could return to the ring now and still make money. :boxing:

ricecrispi
08-01-2005, 12:00 AM
Actually Foreman trains pretty hard and is very skilled and a gold medal winner in the olympics. Tyson in his young prime couldn't make it to the olympic teams. Foreman is a skilled boxer and people just have that image him and Ali fighting so they think he is unskilled.

Hearns
You are say Foreman didn't train at all but thats not the case. He trained pretty hard for the fight because this was his dream fight. When Ali fought Liston, Foreman dreamed of beating Ali one day. He finally got to get the Ali chip off his shoulder.
Foreman thought no way Ali could beat him, he was invincible.
That has Foreman's big flaw and Ali exposed it.

For the fight both guys trained pretty hard in the same gym and they had to split time for sparring in the ring. They had the same amount of time to train because they arrived in Africa the same time.

Foreman did land clean blows but to the body that had to hurt because those were clean and hard shots. Ali probably was being peeing red for 2 weeks. Those punches would put down most men after 2 rounds straight.

Comparing Ali to Douglas is comparing a Fiat to a Ferrari my man.

wmute
08-01-2005, 11:31 PM
Lol first PBF if you want to talk about somebody getting dominated then Ali was crushed by Frazier in their first fight.Norton dominated Ali in all 3 of their fights by got robbed 2 times.If you want to use the only well Tyson only lost to Douglas because he was ****y and he didnt train then that same excuse has to be used for Foreman.But the only difference is Foreman never really trained.Do you know Foreman?Nope but the people around him at that time did and said Foreman rarely trained period and when he did it was usually just a few rounds of sparring.After Foreman beat Frazier his ego grew to such a level he trully believe he couldnt lose.He started cheating on his wife and doing alot of other stuff.
And as for the fight evidently you havent watched it.Ali dominating Foreman?Only if you are mentally retarded.Foreman was the one in control up until he got tired.Ali stated himself that Foreman had him out on his feet 5 plus times doing the fight.But Foreman never landed a clean blow to Ali's head so i guess glancing blows hurt Ali.Ali said he knew he could never out box Foreman because Foreman was to fast.Ali also said he knew as long as Foreman was fresh he couldn't try to engage him period.And i think Ali would know more about this than some little boy who think he knows boxing.
Ali didn't fight Foreman again because he knew he would lose and he was lucky to get a win the first time.Ali instead fought Norton again Frazier again.He fought some Japenese wrestler guy instead of giving Foreman a re-match.Ali gave everbody else a re-match didn't he.He had no problem fight some fighters 3 time times.But yet Foreman couldn't get one more chance to prove he was better than Ali.You can find excuses about why they didnt fight but i gave you the right reason.Saddler and Moore kept trying to get Ali back in the ring but Ali knew he wouldnt win.So Foreman tried to get Holmes in the ring just in case he did get another shot at Ali but Holmes people wanted no part of Foreman.Foreman began to lose his desire fight fight and the ended up fighting Young and as you know he lost and Retired.
You know why people will say Ali is the greatest?Because they feel sorry for him.They feel sorry for the brain damage he got from people like Frazier and Norton and Shavers.Foreman has had more fights than Ali.30 of those fights after the age of 38.Does Foreman have any evidence of brain damage?Nope and do you know why?Because he is the greatest.He doesnt have to have people like you feel bad for him.He doenst have to run off at the mouth like Ali did and pay for it.He did his job and went home.He crushed legends.Even when he was old he made young good fighters run from him like cowards.Ali was done at 36 years of age.By then he was losing to people like Spinks.Do you believe a 36 year old Foreman would lose to Spinks?Hell no.Do you think a 40 year old Foreman would lose to Berbick?Hell no.Do you know why again?Because Foreman is the best.Tyson was crushed by Douglas i dont care what excuse you make the point is he was crushed.But is he better than Tyson?Hell no.Tyson would of beat Douglas down if they fought again.Was Scmhelling better than Joe Louis?Nope but he crushed Louis in their first fight the only difference is Louis had a chance to redeem himself and Foreman didnt.
Beating Foreman made Ali's career.Well Norton and Frazier help to make it but Ali never beat Norton.If Ali never fought Foreman he would only be known as a loud mouth who was almost knocked out with one punch by Cooper.Even people like Tyson would beat Ali 9/10 times if they fought.Lewis would be to much for him.So would Bowe.But keep living in this dream world where Ali is the greatest and i will keep living in the real world where Foreman is still healthy and could return to the ring now and still make money. :boxing:


ali ko8 foreman

I am really sorry for you

boxer2k5
08-02-2005, 12:19 AM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif


ever heard styles make fights

foreman has th style to beat fraizer and norton and lyle
anyday
but ali has the style to beat all of them
but they can give him problems

remember lyle droped foreman twice

but hey style makes fights
they were both great

Tha Greatest
08-02-2005, 03:57 AM
ever heard styles make fights

foreman has th style to beat fraizer and norton and lyle
anyday
but ali has the style to beat all of them
but they can give him problems

remember lyle droped foreman twice

but hey style makes fights
they were both great

You are the ****in man..

check your pm box..

Sir Fancylot
08-02-2005, 09:31 AM
Mckay, it's posts like these that make me believe you know **** about boxing.

Tony Blitz
08-03-2005, 09:32 PM
George Foreman is the man, I read the interview of him in Facing Ali (great book I might add) and he was talking about how much he respected Ali and he's glad Ali beat him because he deserved to be known as the greatest and a whole bunch of stuff like that, when I finished reading it I had a smile on my face, he's such a great guy I wish more boxers had his attitude.

tommyhearns804
08-06-2005, 08:39 AM
Wmute.Ali=brain damage Foreman=still can make money boxing if he wants.Who would you rather be lol.

Skydog
08-17-2005, 05:01 PM
Ali was already being considered one of the greatest of all time before his exile. After the Folley fight, one of the announcers was comparing him to Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey.

tommyhearns804
08-17-2005, 05:16 PM
And Joe Louis and Jack Dempsey said Foremans the best heavyweight they ever saw.

Skydog
08-17-2005, 10:41 PM
I'm not saying that as an insult to Foreman. Surely Ali's victory over Foreman sealed his fate as the greatest of all-time. I was just saying that Ali was already considered one of the greatest of all-time without the victory over Foreman.

tommyhearns804
08-18-2005, 01:16 AM
I get what you are saying Skydog.But if Foreman of knocked out Ali would people still say Ali was the greatest?No Foreman would be considered the greatest.

hellfire508
08-18-2005, 08:18 AM
Ali is the greatest..get over it.
He has the best resume...incomparable.
Yeah foreman was his biggest win...and he wasnt even prime! Thats greatness

tommyhearns804
08-18-2005, 02:55 PM
hellfire ali is the greatest?but yet who is walking around with brain damage from all of the punches they took?foreman still could box today while ali was done when he was in his mid 30's so you tell me who is greater?who did ali beat that you think foreman couldnt beat?nobody.ali beat foreman one time so your point is?frazier beat ali in thier first bout so suppose he never gave ali a rematch would you say frazier is better than ali?douglas crushed a prime tyson but does that mean douglas is better than tyson?louis got beat senseless by schmeling but is max better than joe?joe and ali got a chance to prove themselves but tyson and foreman never did.ali isnt the greatest and foreman isnt.there is no one heavyweight that you could say is the best there is a list and of course ali is one of them.

Skydog
08-18-2005, 04:19 PM
hellfire ali is the greatest?but yet who is walking around with brain damage from all of the punches they took?foreman still could box today while ali was done when he was in his mid 30's so you tell me who is greater?who did ali beat that you think foreman couldnt beat?nobody.ali beat foreman one time so your point is?frazier beat ali in thier first bout so suppose he never gave ali a rematch would you say frazier is better than ali?douglas crushed a prime tyson but does that mean douglas is better than tyson?louis got beat senseless by schmeling but is max better than joe?joe and ali got a chance to prove themselves but tyson and foreman never did.ali isnt the greatest and foreman isnt.there is no one heavyweight that you could say is the best there is a list and of course ali is one of them.

Very intelligent post there.

leoz12
08-24-2005, 11:55 PM
there both greats in my opinion. foreman could've won if he wasnt so pissed haha but it was his style. yea very true foreman is the greater man these days.

king4fore
08-29-2005, 02:19 AM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gifyou must be retarded

DMikeS4321
08-30-2005, 05:27 AM
Foreman beat himself. Ali psyched him, but Forman beat himself. He was out-thought from way before the fight, then he punched himself out on Ali's arms. Given a re-match with a more mature Foreman, Ali loses every time.

Foreman was psyched out, and he was frustrated by Ali (Duran and "No Mas" comes to mind), and he wasn't used to being taken into the late rounds. He was also surprised that Ali could take his punches.

I think he lacked the mental toughness to face an opponent like Ali at that stage of his career, but, if he could have pulled himself together after that loss, learned from it, and gone back at Ali, he would have won. Foreman was just too much physically for Ali, hence Ali's psych job. Ali was ALWAYS psyching someone out, starting with Liston.

If Norton and Shavers and Frazier gave Ali trouble, a Foreman with his head screwed on straight would have REALLY given him trouble. Next to Marciano, Foreman was the heaviest hitter in the history of the sport (I don't think rope-a-dope would have worked with Marciano, he would have torn through Ali's arms like a hot knife...).

DMikeS4321
08-30-2005, 05:58 AM
Boston Guy,

I saw the Ali/Lyle fight, and Lyle beat Ali. He didn't beat the hell out of him, but he beat him. One could argue that the momentum shifted back and forth, but the fight shouldn't have been stopped, and it was ONLY stopped because Ali was already being hyped as a legend. Lyle wasn't hurt. He worked way to hard to have been robbed like that, and Ali, as was too often the case, was given the benefit of the (officials) doubt.

XionComrade
09-03-2005, 02:10 PM
I think that Shavers hit harder than Foreman did, and Ali still beat him. I know that Marciano doesn't hit as hard as Foreman or Shavers so...

paul750
09-03-2005, 02:18 PM
It dosent matter how you try and disguise it, the fact of the matter remains that great boxers will nearly always beat great punchers, Foreman didn't beat himself, Ali beat him clearly, it's just a simple fact, thats just boxing.

Pak men
09-24-2005, 10:06 AM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif
I definitely agee with this one. Ali is not the greatest. And because of his audacity he was given as karma Parkinson's disease. While Big George on the other hand continued to fight and be a world champion in his 40's. Testament of Foreman's strength and durability.

The differences in the outcome of their lives is so contrasting and funny. Ali has parkinson's, Foreman enjoys life and has a strong family and a grandpa. Ali is nothing more than a rundown old man and Foreman continues to be respected and given laurels.

Ali is not the greatest. To claim that he's the greatest is an insult to boxing.

chopper77
09-26-2005, 03:11 PM
Pac Man you are a dick! Do you really think people get some **** inflicted on them because they were arrogant as you put it? Ali did that to make money, so shouldn't he have gotten some other form of a disease more in line with that? What about Joe Louis? What do you think he did wrong to die sick and poor? He totally toed the white mans line back in the day, when he could have beat all those racist asswipes easily. Come on man. You hate Ali cause he exposed the piece of **** fighter that George Foreman was then, and is today. I NEVER saw George throw a straight punch, and if you've ever been in the ring you know you need one of those. Your a Forman nut hugger!

KidBlackie
09-26-2005, 04:02 PM
[[[You hate Ali cause he exposed the piece of **** fighter that George Foreman was then, and is today. I NEVER saw George throw a straight punch, and if you've ever been in the ring you know you need one of those.]]]
================

You're as out of line as the other fella claiming that Ali got what he deserved with Parkinsons. George is an alltime great and threw plenty of straight punches but is often noted for his tremendous wide swings ala Sam Peter.

Where do all these rabid nutcases come from? If crap was brains their shorts would be geniuses!

chopper77
09-26-2005, 04:13 PM
All time great? Man you guys are swimming in the shallow end of the pool. Foreman against Dempsey, my money is on mad Jack, Foreman against John L. my money is on John L. Hell man Jimmy Young beat George. Did you see that fight? He also exposed Foreman for the over rated piece of crap heavyweight that he was. I'd put money on a tough ass Greb against Foreman.

Skydog
09-26-2005, 09:37 PM
What does Ali having Parkinson's now have to do with how great of a boxer he was?

Both were all-time greats, Ali with a little edge.

KidBlackie
09-26-2005, 10:30 PM
[[[All time great? Man you guys are swimming in the shallow end of the pool.]]]
===========================

You ain't got a gene pool to swim in sonny. Flies live on you and boxing is beyond your grasp. George has more KOs than all but one heavy champ in history has wins. Boxing 101.

SnoopySmurf
09-27-2005, 08:44 AM
I thought Lyle didn't come out for the 11th round against Ali. I gotta see that fight again. Anyway, Lyle was winning the first few rounds until Ali opened up later. Eventually, he was tagging Lyle at will, although carefully as Lyle was a strong puncher.

Pak men
09-27-2005, 12:52 PM
Pac Man you are a dick! Do you really think people get some **** inflicted on them because they were arrogant as you put it? Ali did that to make money, so shouldn't he have gotten some other form of a disease more in line with that? What about Joe Louis? What do you think he did wrong to die sick and poor? He totally toed the white mans line back in the day, when he could have beat all those racist asswipes easily. Come on man. You hate Ali cause he exposed the piece of **** fighter that George Foreman was then, and is today. I NEVER saw George throw a straight punch, and if you've ever been in the ring you know you need one of those. Your a Forman nut hugger!
And you are a dog-***** ******* dumbass. I didn't said FOreman was the greatest. You dumbass ****er need to learn english more.

I'm just stating facts as it is. George has a strong family now, he's a grandpa and is head of an extended Foreman clan. Ali is basically wallowing in Parkinson's. The outcome is just too contrasting.

Dumbass kiddo, learn to limit your arguments to the one said by the other guy. Don't try to put words which are not there kiddo.

chopper77
09-27-2005, 04:52 PM
Hey **** you kiddo!! You wrote that "because of his audacity he was given Parkinsons", go back and read it you asswipe. You satrted it by saying stupid **** like that. It's no secret you would swallow George's seed, so go do it!! To write a guy got a debilitating disease because he was audacious, (and I guess you mean because he was a braggart)was an incredibly stupid thing to write! And then to tell me I put words in your mouth. Go **** yourself. If you make a mistake in life I hope the gods don't smite you with some ****ed up disease. You're already going through life stupid!!

chopper77
09-27-2005, 04:58 PM
Hey Blackie, big deal!! Lots of KO's. He was a no talent hard punching doofis. He reminds me of the big jock in the bar that rears back like he's going to knock down a house, only by that time I've hit him 5 times with my fists, once with the stool, once with a empty (notice I say empty) bottle of Bud, your girlfriends ass, and I watch him go down. If I tought this beautiful sport, which I do, I would tell my guys to do the opposite of big George.

Skydog
09-27-2005, 07:41 PM
I still don't get what matters if Ali has Parkinsons now. That doesn't take anything away from his greatness.

Put it this way, Ali gave up his life so he could win. That's what a call a warrior.

KidBlackie
09-27-2005, 10:54 PM
[[[He reminds me of the big jock in the bar that rears back]]]
=============================

Yeah, right sonny. Let us know when you're old enough to drink in a bar and go pick a fight and see what happens. In the meantime, waddle on back the the WWF channel or whatever it called these days and bug your eyes out.

Pak men
09-28-2005, 02:37 AM
Hey **** you kiddo!! You wrote that "because of his audacity he was given Parkinsons", go back and read it you asswipe. You satrted it by saying stupid **** like that. It's no secret you would swallow George's seed, so go do it!! To write a guy got a debilitating disease because he was audacious, (and I guess you mean because he was a braggart)was an incredibly stupid thing to write! And then to tell me I put words in your mouth. Go **** yourself. If you make a mistake in life I hope the gods don't smite you with some ****ed up disease. You're already going through life stupid!!
And it's true because of his audacity, his stupidity, his womanizing nature, he got Parkinson's, simple and easy. In contrast to Foreman he is head of the Foreman clan, how sweet is it eh? lol!

Pak men
09-28-2005, 02:38 AM
[[[He reminds me of the big jock in the bar that rears back]]]
=============================

Yeah, right sonny. Let us know when you're old enough to drink in a bar and go pick a fight and see what happens. In the meantime, waddle on back the the WWF channel or whatever it called these days and bug your eyes out.
Yeah old man, sure. ANd you go take viagra for your dick which won't stand up. Wussy!

Pak men
09-28-2005, 02:41 AM
I still don't get what matters if Ali has Parkinsons now. That doesn't take anything away from his greatness.

Put it this way, Ali gave up his life so he could win. That's what a call a warrior.
Ali's great yeah, I agree. But saying he's the greatest is an insult to boxing. People gotta contend he's just great not the greatest.

chopper77
09-28-2005, 11:23 AM
I'll tell you little boys something, and listen close. I've drank more beer, pissed more blood, and banged more quiff than all you *****s put together, so go ask your mommy for another glass of milk.

Kid Achilles
09-28-2005, 01:13 PM
I happen to enjoy a nice cold glass of milk.

Pak men
09-28-2005, 02:43 PM
I'll tell you little boys something, and listen close. I've drank more beer, pissed more blood, and banged more quiff than all you *****s put together, so go ask your mommy for another glass of milk.
And so go to the drugstore and have more viagra old man. You need it for your lame dick which wont stand up.

Go run to the drugstore Grandpa. lol!

KidBlackie
09-28-2005, 03:01 PM
[[[Yeah old man, sure.]]]
================

Tell you what Junior, gonna give you a basic 101 education. The biggest users of viagra and steroids are young punks who need artificial enhancements to make up for their lack of natural ability and self esteem. What a foul mouthed pitiful generation of dogs and hacks. Tests have shown they're dumber too.

Pak men
09-28-2005, 08:31 PM
[[[Yeah old man, sure.]]]
================

Tell you what Junior, gonna give you a basic 101 education. The biggest users of viagra and steroids are young punks who need artificial enhancements to make up for their lack of natural ability and self esteem. What a foul mouthed pitiful generation of dogs and hacks. Tests have shown they're dumber too.
And tell you what oldie, old guys seem to lose it more often when all they do is blab... VIAGRA.. lol! Tests have shown that young ones are dumber, but old ones, like you, are pure dumbass, hopeless idiots.

That's you Grandpa, a dumbass, hopeless idiot.

Skydog
09-28-2005, 08:54 PM
Whoever Pak Men is, he is making me embarassed to be a part of this generation.

Skydog
09-28-2005, 08:57 PM
Ali's great yeah, I agree. But saying he's the greatest is an insult to boxing. People gotta contend he's just great not the greatest.

How is saying Ali is the greatest an insult to boxing? Who would you say is the greatest? Probably Tyson: a woman raping, cowardly, ear biting thug who makes boxing look like ****.

Ali was courageous, charismatic, outrageous, fearless, and noble and changed boxing and athletics forever.

Pak men
09-28-2005, 10:45 PM
Whoever Pak Men is, he is making me embarassed to be a part of this generation.
And whoever Skydog is, better remain one coz you're an embarassment to the human race.

Pak men
09-28-2005, 10:47 PM
How is saying Ali is the greatest an insult to boxing? Who would you say is the greatest? Probably Tyson: a woman raping, cowardly, ear biting thug who makes boxing look like ****.

Ali was courageous, charismatic, outrageous, fearless, and noble and changed boxing and athletics forever.
He was a braggart, and a womanizer. Ali is not the greatest. To say that is a big joke.

And you're still a fool for thinking Tyson raped that woman. You're indeed an idiot. It was a set-up idiot. Ever heard of Don King betraying his own fighters just to get money? You're indeed a fool.

There is no such thing as the greatest in boxing. There are great ones but no greatest.

KidBlackie
09-29-2005, 01:27 AM
[[[That's you Grandpa, a dumbass, hopeless idiot.]]]
======================

That's several grades up the evolutionary ladder than you junior. My blessing is that your taxes is gonna pay for my retirement while you get older and have to deal with the kids coming up who are actually starting to show improvement in intelligence tests. You're gonna be the dumb generation sandwiched between two smart generations. Funny stuff!

Pak men
09-29-2005, 10:43 AM
[[[That's you Grandpa, a dumbass, hopeless idiot.]]]
======================

That's several grades up the evolutionary ladder than you junior. My blessing is that your taxes is gonna pay for my retirement while you get older and have to deal with the kids coming up who are actually starting to show improvement in intelligence tests. You're gonna be the dumb generation sandwiched between two smart generations. Funny stuff!
Actually my generation is the smart generation sandwiched between 2 dumb generations in-between. lol! Funny stuff.

Skydog
09-29-2005, 11:56 PM
He was a braggart, and a womanizer. Ali is not the greatest. To say that is a big joke.

And you're still a fool for thinking Tyson raped that woman. You're indeed an idiot. It was a set-up idiot. Ever heard of Don King betraying his own fighters just to get money? You're indeed a fool.

There is no such thing as the greatest in boxing. There are great ones but no greatest.

I never even said that Ali was the greatest. Find me one part of that post where it said that Ali was the greatest.

I said that saying Ali was the greatest is much better than saying Tyson is.

Pugnacious_Z
09-30-2005, 12:43 AM
SKYDOG u dumb mutha fuka, pak man never said tyson was greatest and even he did, its more true then dat ***** ali being teh greatest, he talked more **** then ur mum last night ***get. Ali was a runner, a ***** ass, liston slapped his ass on the streets and he was 2 scared to do anything, u call dat fearless? frazier wud beat him, foreman wud beat him, tyson wud beat him. he was a punk ass ***** like u, ***get

Skydog
10-01-2005, 06:08 PM
Tyson was nothing but a brawler and a thug. He beat and raped women. HE BIT SOMEONE'S ****ING EAR SO HE WOULDN'T GET THE **** KNOCKED OUT OF HIM!!!!
Ali was a *****? I don't remember Ali trying his hardest to not fight Foreman like Tyson. Ali gave up his whole life so he could win. Liston slapped him on the streets? Ali ****ing DESTROYED Liston in the ring. Frazier and Foreman would have beaten him. Who the **** are you kidding? He has beaten both of them. AND HE WASN'T EVEN IN HIS PRIME!!!

Pak men
10-02-2005, 11:37 AM
Tyson was nothing but a brawler and a thug. He beat and raped women. HE BIT SOMEONE'S ****ING EAR SO HE WOULDN'T GET THE **** KNOCKED OUT OF HIM!!!!
Ali was a *****? I don't remember Ali trying his hardest to not fight Foreman like Tyson. Ali gave up his whole life so he could win. Liston slapped him on the streets? Ali ****ing DESTROYED Liston in the ring. Frazier and Foreman would have beaten him. Who the **** are you kidding? He has beaten both of them. AND HE WASN'T EVEN IN HIS PRIME!!!
Hey dumbass, he didn't raped that woman. I followed the investigation and the evidence presented and there was no rape. It was a set-up. Dn King set Tyson up.

I'm just stating the outcome of both Foreman and Ali's lives. I'm not saying either is the greatest.

I'm just stating that Ali basically has nothing in life. While Big George continues to be respected in the sports community and stands as the epitome of strength and durability. Also Big George is head of the extended Foreman clan. How sweet is that skydog? lol!

Skydog
10-02-2005, 01:34 PM
I still don't see how that changes the greatness of either of their sports careers.

IwatchBoxing
10-02-2005, 05:25 PM
Ali had like 22 title fights, and fought sussecfuly 15 years (not counting three years), and up till after Leon Spinks in 1978, he beaten everyone who beaten him..he came back in 1980 to lose, than have a final fight in 81.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180

Foreman had like 7 "real" title defenses, and didnt fight again for 3 years after Ali...which Ali beat everyone Foreman faced in the 70's
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000090

Dempsey 1919
10-25-2005, 03:56 PM
Muhammad Ali is the greatest heavyweight champion, boxing champion, and he is the best athlete in the history of mankind. To say that Foreman, who is not really a pure boxer is better than him is like saying I rather live in a shack than a mansion.

legend_killer
10-26-2005, 10:47 PM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif
Foreman's power was incredible, but his attitude sucked. Rather than look for a rematch or fight to regain his position at the top, Foreman became depressed and gave the sport up. Ali lost to Frazier, but he kept on fighting because he wanted it that bad. The fact that you have even suggested that Foreman is the reason Ali was great is an insult to Ali and everything he stood for.

Ali knew that it wasn't over until the final bell rang and he kept going after losing. That's what every great fighter does. Foreman proved to everyone that unless he's beating opponents senseless, he's not much of a fighter. A fighter does more than just throw punches in the ring. He fights for his life. Ali was stripped of his title because he refused to fight a war that he did not believe in. Yet despite all of that, he came back and achieved greatness. Ali is the epitome of greatness because boxing was his life.

Dempsey 1919
10-26-2005, 10:57 PM
Foreman's power was incredible, but his attitude sucked. Rather than look for a rematch or fight to regain his position at the top, Foreman became depressed and gave the sport up. Ali lost to Frazier, but he kept on fighting because he wanted it that bad. The fact that you have even suggested that Foreman is the reason Ali was great is an insult to Ali and everything he stood for.

Ali knew that it wasn't over until the final bell rang and he kept going after losing. That's what every great fighter does. Foreman proved to everyone that unless he's beating opponents senseless, he's not much of a fighter. A fighter does more than just throw punches in the ring. He fights for his life. Ali was stripped of his title because he refused to fight a war that he did not believe in. Yet despite all of that, he came back and achieved greatness. Ali is the epitome of greatness because boxing was his life.
it looks like this guy knows what he is talking about. read my thread on the ali-terrel bout.

Salah
11-19-2005, 01:28 AM
Apparently, you know some history, but you don't know boxing. Otherwise, you would have concluded that Ali was the greatest of all time. In order to understand Ali, you need to undertsand his style. Ali was the fastest heavyweight champion ever. He had hand speed that he kept even after his prime, and he had foot speed that he seemed to have partially lost after his comeback. Ali had a punching power, unlike common belief (especially if you look at stat or records). However, Ali was a defensive fighter and he often did not go for the kill when he hurt his opponent. I watched most of his fights. He could have an early knock out but chose to play with his opponents for a while. But let's talk about some facts:

First, Ali used to run away from punches as opposed trying to slip a punch. Because of that he was suscipitable for knock downs. Ali was knocked down by few of his opponents, but he always got up on the first count, and it was always while he was running backward. In other words, he was not knocked down because he was hurt, but more because he was out of balance running backward when he happended to be hit. That cost him his first fight against Frazier. A fight he should have won otherwise. And remember Ali was inactive for 4 years because he refused to be inducted to the military. Ali's timing was off.

Second, how can you say anything about Ali's performance against Norton in their first fight. Ali's Jaw was broken while been reckless taunting his opponent. It was broken in the second round. Lesser men would have quit. Ali fought 10 more rounds, and barely lost a split descion. Ali had demonstrated courage and greatness in his loss more than any of his wins.

Third, Ali is a smart boxer. He undertsands that you need to save your energy for later rounds. That is why he does not go for the kill early, just in case if his opponent did not fall, he will have gas in the tank. If you noticed, Ali never try to throw too many hooks. The right or left hook is the most powerful punch if it lands. All Foreman did is to throw hooks. Unfortunately, you exert lots of energy throwing hooks, especially if you miss, you are wide open. Try punching a heavy bag by throwing right and left hooks all the time, you won't last a round. Then try to throw multiple jabs mix it with frequent right hand, and occasionally right or left hook, you will last much longer. If Ali (who has punching power) threw many hooks as Formean did, he would have more knock outs and early round wins. In summary Ali is the best fighter of all time, because:
1. Had great stamina, Foreman did not
2. The fastest in the heavyweight division, Forman was too slow
3. Incredible foot work, enjoyable to watch. Foreman's fights are boring.
4. Great defensive skills, hard to hit. Foreman was an easy target.
5. Great jab, nobody came close. Foreman had no jab.
6. Most importantly, he always had a game plan, Foreman much of the same

Finally, think about somebody who became rich in a short period of time by investing $10,000 in the dot com companies in the late 1999's and somebody who became rich by developing a good and sound business plan. You may say the guy who become rich investing in the dot com companies is better invester because he did it quickly compared to other guy. But when the dot com collapsed, that guy lost everything while the other one remained rich. If you have a punching power like Foreman, Tyson and Ali, you can use it early but if the fighter in front of you does not fall (like Ali against Foreman, or Buster Douglas against Tyson), then you are done. Like the dot com. But if you have a good and sound plan that is well executed, then that is how you win over the long run.

Don't read stats, just watch the fights.

And by the way, Ali was the first man to knock out Ron Lyle. He hit him 30 times before the refree stopped it. I don't care what Ron's corner man said after the fight. It was well stopped fight. Foreman fell down 10 times against Ron before he knocked him out. It was a reduculas fight. Both fighters kept falling down. Nobody had any game plan. That is another example of you reading stats and not watching the game. Get your fact straight. If I have to guess, your fantasy football team sucks (if you have one) since all you do is read stats, not analyzing the game. And by the way, i like Foreman and have great respect for him, but he is not as talented as Ali.

TuPrincipe
11-19-2005, 02:24 AM
Ali was a great heavyweight, one of the best known individuals on the planet and deserves much acclaim for his accomplishments. However, when most of the all-century lists and greatest athletes of all-time discussions come about, Ali is almost always in the top 3.

While Ali was an influential black leader and Vietnam war lightning rod, yet his social importance is not even in the same realm as some others. Ali was a product and relfection of the time he lived in.

While Ali was a great boxer and repeatedly won the heavyweight title, he was not overly dominant nor that much superior to his peers at the time.

He is not widely regarded as the greatest pound-for-pound boxer of all-time, nor is even universally accepted as the greatest heavyweight of all-time.

I have come to the conclusion that Ali is overated and his only "real" victory was over Foreman. He fought brilliantly that fight and He deserved it.

He lost a total of 5 times. He lost to Frazier, Jimmy Young, and Ken Norton (Yes Norton won three times.) I don't think that his record should speak for itself.

He was not "The Greatest" of all time IMO.

KidBlackie
11-19-2005, 10:00 AM
[[[[Ali was knocked down by few of his opponents, but he always got up on the first count, and it was always while he was running backward. In other words, he was not knocked down because he was hurt, but more because he was out of balance running backward when he happended to be hit. That cost him his first fight against Frazier. ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
-------------------------------======================

Oh boy, another Ali jock sniffer. Ali was a fine fighter, but Frazier knocked the snot out of him. Ali was lucky to survive the 15th round in their first fight. You must have never seen the photo of him with the cantalope stuck on the right side of his face.

Ali was never invincible though he seemed that way in his prime because of the weak competition. When he came back he immediately lost to the best heavies he'd ever faced, Frazier and Norton. Norton won their 3rd fight and Frazier beat the hell out of Ali in their 3rd fight. Ali was lucky Futch tossed in the towel because he'd just quit in his corner and Dundee wouldn't toss his towel. That was the 3rd big fight Dundee saved his bacon in.

I would rank Ali as the 2nd best heavy in history, but he had plenty of flaws and lots of gift bouts. He was as tough and talented as they come though.

Dempsey 1919
11-19-2005, 11:32 AM
Ali was a great heavyweight, one of the best known individuals on the planet and deserves much acclaim for his accomplishments. However, when most of the all-century lists and greatest athletes of all-time discussions come about, Ali is almost always in the top 3.

While Ali was an influential black leader and Vietnam war lightning rod, yet his social importance is not even in the same realm as some others. Ali was a product and relfection of the time he lived in.

While Ali was a great boxer and repeatedly won the heavyweight title, he was not overly dominant nor that much superior to his peers at the time.

He is not widely regarded as the greatest pound-for-pound boxer of all-time, nor is even universally accepted as the greatest heavyweight of all-time.

I have come to the conclusion that Ali is overated and his only "real" victory was over Foreman. He fought brilliantly that fight and He deserved it.

He lost a total of 5 times. He lost to Frazier, Jimmy Young, and Ken Norton (Yes Norton won three times.) I don't think that his record should speak for itself.

He was not "The Greatest" of all time IMO.

he didn't lose to jimmy young. he lost to frazier, norton, spinks, holmes and berbick.

Dempsey 1919
11-19-2005, 11:34 AM
Ali had like 22 title fights, and fought sussecfuly 15 years (not counting three years), and up till after Leon Spinks in 1978, he beaten everyone who beaten him..he came back in 1980 to lose, than have a final fight in 81.
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000180

Foreman had like 7 "real" title defenses, and didnt fight again for 3 years after Ali...which Ali beat everyone Foreman faced in the 70's
http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=000090

actually, ali had 19 successful title defense, 9 the first time and ten the other, while forman had 4 successful ones, 2 the first time and two the other.

Dempsey 1919
11-19-2005, 01:38 PM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif

it's a good thing this guy got banned. he was an idiot. this is the real man in boxing!

http://www.onlinesports.com/images/ssg-uma-16q.gif http://www.boxingpress.de/fotos/hana-ali.jpg

Heckler
11-21-2005, 05:47 PM
I have never heard so much ****... 1974 was not Alis prime and this is obvious, FOREMAN never MADE ALI... Ali took out frazier and liston, i put the frazier fights over the foreman fight. In his prime he was undefeated and i believe he would remain undefeated in his 1967 form fighting any boxer in the 20th century... Ali beat norton 2/3 times and maintain he DID WIN 2/3 times.

Heckler
11-21-2005, 05:56 PM
[[[[Ali was knocked down by few of his opponents, but he always got up on the first count, and it was always while he was running backward. In other words, he was not knocked down because he was hurt, but more because he was out of balance running backward when he happended to be hit. That cost him his first fight against Frazier. ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
-------------------------------======================

Oh boy, another Ali jock sniffer. Ali was a fine fighter, but Frazier knocked the snot out of him. Ali was lucky to survive the 15th round in their first fight. You must have never seen the photo of him with the cantalope stuck on the right side of his face.

Ali was never invincible though he seemed that way in his prime because of the weak competition. When he came back he immediately lost to the best heavies he'd ever faced, Frazier and Norton. Norton won their 3rd fight and Frazier beat the hell out of Ali in their 3rd fight. Ali was lucky Futch tossed in the towel because he'd just quit in his corner and Dundee wouldn't toss his towel. That was the 3rd big fight Dundee saved his bacon in.

I would rank Ali as the 2nd best heavy in history, but he had plenty of flaws and lots of gift bouts. He was as tough and talented as they come though.

ALI was always going to come out of the corner in the 15th round... He jokingly said afterwards 'i was going to quit too' but to this day, and i have no reason not to believe him he states he was going to come out for the last round and he didn't think people were gonna take him seriously when he said he was going to quit also. This is the man that fought himself to braindamage, went far beyond his prime to fight larry homes... No way would he merely 'give up' his determination and ego would never allow this. He beat Norton twice, he beat frazier twice... the first fight was his 3rd fight after 3 1/2 years of retirement... In 1967, in his prime he was undefeated and i believe he would of remained this way against frazier and norton.

KidBlackie
11-21-2005, 05:56 PM
[[[[To I have never heard so much ****... 1974 was not Alis prime and this is obvious, FOREMAN never MADE ALI... Ali took out frazier and liston, i put the frazier fights over the foreman fight. In his prime he was undefeated and i believe he would remain undefeated in his 1967 form fighting any boxer in the 20th century... Ali beat norton 2/3 times and maintain he DID WIN 2/3 times.]]]]]]]]]]
===========================

Let's put it this way. Ali says Foreman was his best victory. He was never considered an all time great until that fight. He never got the steady big purses until that that fight excluding the first Frazier fight. Frazier got the best of Ali overall and so did Norton regardless of the cards. Ali also avoided the Foreman and Young rematches. Of course he was greatly diminished by then. See the Wepner fight forward. The Liston fights were highly controversial and not fully accepted by boxing insiders or the public.

Mike_R
11-21-2005, 07:30 PM
in the norton fight where ali broke his jaw- it's my understanding that injury happened pretty early on. and ali fought the vast majority of that 15 round fight with a broken jaw.

that is amazing to me.

Dempsey 1919
11-22-2005, 04:10 PM
in the norton fight where ali broke his jaw- it's my understanding that injury happened pretty early on. and ali fought the vast majority of that 15 round fight with a broken jaw.

that is amazing to me.

everything about ali is amazing. this guy actually says he is gonna do something in a fight, even though it has never been done, and does it. he predicts the round and does it. nobody can hit him as hard as they try, and he could hit them at will and make them look stupid, even though they might be HOFers! that is just from another planet!

KidBlackie
11-22-2005, 04:59 PM
[[[[ali is amazing. this guy actually says he is gonna do something in a fight, even though it has never been done, and does it. he predicts the round and does it. ]]]]
===========================

Sam Langford was in a dogfight, one of dozens he had against HOF fighters. Midrounds he steps back and marks an X with his foot and points to it. He then work's his man to the spot and knocks him dead cold on it.

Kid, boxing had a hundred years of amazing history before Ali ever came on the scene.

Dempsey 1919
11-22-2005, 05:01 PM
[[[[ali is amazing. this guy actually says he is gonna do something in a fight, even though it has never been done, and does it. he predicts the round and does it. ]]]]
===========================

Sam Langford was in a dogfight, one of dozens he had against HOF fighters. Midrounds he steps back and marks an X with his foot and points to it. He then work's his man to the spot and knocks him dead cold on it.

Kid, boxing had a hundred years of amazing history before Ali ever came on the scene.

but none of that was as spectacular as what ali did.

Heckler
11-23-2005, 02:34 AM
George Foreman could of fought Ali again and he still would of lost. Georges Style caters to Ali's style. Ali is quick, resourceful and can absorb punishment. You watch that fight, Ali controlled that whole fight... coming off the ropes he'd land flurrys of punches, when he stayed off the ropes he would control the range and land flurrys on george. Ali is an adaptive fighter, and he could adapt to whatever little arsenal Foreman through at him. Ali had problems with good boxers and swarmers with fast hands... not crude sluggers. The only thing in foremans arsenal is big punches, of which Ali could defend against and counter punch against.

Heckler
11-23-2005, 02:40 AM
You can tell when a boxer throws a fight or not... Sonny liston was fighting as he always did in the first fight, and Alis superior skills allowed him to neutralise Sonny Liston... Sonny Liston was clearly fighting as best he could, and Ali destroyed him... simple as that... he threw the second fight. Its widely accepted that the first fight was genuine.

Dempsey 1919
11-23-2005, 12:57 PM
You can tell when a boxer throws a fight or not... Sonny liston was fighting as he always did in the first fight, and Alis superior skills allowed him to neutralise Sonny Liston... Sonny Liston was clearly fighting as best he could, and Ali destroyed him... simple as that... he threw the second fight. Its widely accepted that the first fight was genuine.

nice post.

speed_devil
11-23-2005, 05:57 PM
Very nice@!

blockhead
11-23-2005, 11:28 PM
I dont know why you are trying to make a big deal out of the Lyle fight. Foreman was knocked down twice in the 4th but the point is he got up like a true champion and put Lyle on his ass and kept him there in the 5th like a true champion does. Knocked his ass his out cold.

Ali on other hand against Lyle was loosing every single round, then all ALi he did was flurry wildly once in the 8th round and the ref came in stopped the fight. One of the worst stoppages ever. Lyle was not hurt or anything, Ali was not even connecting with Lyle in most of that flurry. If the ref did not pull that bull**** stoppage Ali was doomed to lose a Wide UD.
lyle was never ahead on points in that fight. you know why? because lyle couldnt fight. he got his ass handed to him by two "true champions".

Dempsey 1919
11-24-2005, 12:24 AM
lyle was never ahead on points in that fight. you know why? because lyle couldnt fight. he got his ass handed to him by two "true champions".

actually, i was scoring the fight and i had it for the first ten rounds 5-3-2 in lyle's favor. but if ali wanted to he could have won every round cause the only rounds lyle won, or that were draws were the rounds ali layed back on the ropes and let lyle hit him, the same as foreman, so ali was by far the superior boxer against lyle. and mckay said ali flurried once and lyle wasn't hurt, and ali wasn't connecting most of the time, but if you watch the eleventh round, lyle fell back on the ropes twice! and ali threw about 30 punches and missed like four times and they were all hard punches and the last punch connected rocked lyle head back and made him glassy eyed, so he was out on his feet, and it was a very appropriate stoppage.

KidBlackie
11-24-2005, 07:30 AM
[[[lyle was never ahead on points in that fight. you know why? because lyle couldnt fight. he got his ass handed to him by two "true champions".]]]]]]]]]]
===========================

Blockhead is a just name for you. Lyle was comfortably ahead on the cards and anyone knows this if they watched the fight.

Heckler
11-24-2005, 06:51 PM
Lyle was ahead, but if the ref didn't stop it then, he would of stopped in a few seconds anyway. You could see Lyle was damaged by those flurries, towards the latter rounds lyle was tiring and he was going to be dropped anyway.

hellfire508
11-25-2005, 03:19 AM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.



Muhammad Ali's prime was against Williams, Folley and Terrell - and would have continued into 68, 69. And no - Muhammad Ali is greater than George Foreman. I shall prove you wrong:

Here are the fighters Ali beat:
Joe Frazier x2
Sonny Liston x2
GEORGE FOREMAN
Jerry Quarry x2
Ken Norton x2
Floyd Patterson x2
Cleveland Williams
Zora Folley
Ron Lyle
Archie Moore
Henry Cooper x2
George Chuvalo x2
Ernie Terrell
Jimmy Ellis
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Joe Bugner x2
Bob Foster

That is pure class that list. The best resume EVER.

Foreman's big names:

Joe Frazier x2
George Chuvalo
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Gerry Cooney
Michael Moorer

Firstly - you are a retard. You claim Liston was all "f**ked up" against Ali - yet you use Leon Spinks as an argument against Ali? You are a loser. Sonny Liston just came off huge first round knockouts of Floyd Patterson, who is a top 20 heavyweight. Liston was very close to prime. He looked bad against Ali because Ali made him look bad. The pure speed and agility was too much for Liston. The second fight may have been a dive - big deal. Ali wrecked him in the first.

As for Ken Norton - Norton was all wrong for Ali. He was the perfect fighter to trouble Ali. He applied pressure with an awkward style - and came in with the jab. If Ali didn't get his jaw broken - he would have won. He was too cautious to hit, because he feared getting hit in the jaw. Even so - Ali lost. But he was past his prime. His prime was 66-7.

You say that Ali beat Foreman because of styles, yet you refuse to acknowledge styles for Foreman's victories over Norton and Frazier. He was the hardest hitter ever, and Frazier and glass-chinned Norton were tailor made for Foreman. Ali still beat each of them 2 out of 3 - past his prime.

You say Foreman made Lyle look like nothing? WTF? LYle knocked Foreman down! Twice! Ali's fight with Lyle - was infact past his prime - and was bascially even before the stoppage. Oh, and Ali WON the fight because he STOPPEP Lyle! Trailing on the cards is totally irrelevant!

You also refuse to acknowledge that ALi beat Young, whereas Foreman lost to Young. Ali was shot. Foreman was past his mental prime.

My conclusion: Look at the resumes - Ali was greater. He sacrificed his prime- and is still the greatest heavyweight in history. Also - from you post - it is clear you know nothing about boxing.

hellfire508
11-25-2005, 03:40 AM
LOL at the title of this thread. Muhammad Ali, actually Cassius Clay in his prime is the GREATEST HEAVYWEIGHT CHAMPION EVA!!!

If you called Muhammad Ali "Cassius Clay" in his prime - he would have torn you to shreads in the ring. AKA Patterson and Terrell. Ali was not quite prime against Liston. He changed his name after this fight.

hellfire508
11-25-2005, 03:42 AM
of course foreman was better, if ali dare to open for 1 full round foreman would ko him but he didnt he was too smart for foreman. but i think the 60s ali would dance away and be too fast for foreman. :boxing:

LMAO! Foreman KO ALi in one round if he were to "open for 1 full round"? MY god! Someone needs to educate you people. Watch round 1 of Zaire, Ali fought toe-to-toe basically the entire round. Landing straight right hands at will. He won the round.

KidBlackie
11-25-2005, 05:47 AM
Here are the fighters Ali beat:
Joe Frazier x2
Sonny Liston x2
GEORGE FOREMAN
Jerry Quarry x2
Ken Norton x2
Floyd Patterson x2
Cleveland Williams
Zora Folley
Ron Lyle
Archie Moore
Henry Cooper x2
George Chuvalo x2
Ernie Terrell
Jimmy Ellis
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Joe Bugner x2
Bob Foster

That is pure class that list. The best resume EVER.

Foreman's big names:

Joe Frazier x2
George Chuvalo
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Gerry Cooney
Michael Moorer

Firstly - you are a retard. ]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]]
===========================================

Whooooooeeey, boy I used to work in a psychiatric residential facility for retarded children, and their favorite epithet hurled at each other was "retard."

I understand you were responding to someone overplaying their Foreman hand, but your Ali list is utterly ridiculous. Archie Moore? Damn near 50 yrs old in his 2nd to last fight? Cleveland Williams? Cooper? The same Cooper who never got a sniff of a title shot until he KOed young Clay in a fight Dundee pulled a sleight of hand in?

Well, obviously you hate Foreman, either that or see my opening statement! Foreman as a novice beat the hell out of the experienced Chuck Wepner who Ali chose to defend his title against. Wepner made Ali look like crap and was certainly a grade above 50 yr old Archie Moore. Gregario Peralta was as tough as they come with 99 career victories. Certainly a much bigger challenge for young Foreman than old Williams who literally had to climb off his death bed for a fight against Ali. Like Wepner, Foreman easily disposed of Ledoux before Ledoux got a title shot against Holmes.

Why didn't you include Schultz? Cooper damn near upset Holy for a title. Qawi gave Holy and Spinks hell.

"Spinking" of Spinks, let's talk about the "other" Spinks, Leon. You didn't include Leon on great Ali victories. After all, Leon is the most inexperienced undisputed heavyweight champ in history! Of course it's only fair to claim Spinks as a bookend to Liston in two of Sonny's most shameful fights ever. Damn, you forgot Cosell!

Ali the best resume ever? Yeah, in Ali LA-LA Land.

hellfire508
11-25-2005, 05:58 AM
Actually - George Foreman is my second favourite heavyweight ever. Owned.

Now - Please name the heavyweight with a better resume than Ali. I'll wait for you. I don't know any others that went 11-2-0 against hall of famers. I named the likes of Williams and Moore because they were big names. They were past their best, but they are big names. That aside - Ali beat 3 top 10 heavyweights, plus 2 other top 25 heavyweights. No-one else has come close.

hellfire508
11-25-2005, 06:11 AM
Williams had to climb off his death bed? LOL. He was shot in 1965, and was inactive for that year. He came back and was 5-0 before facing Ali. I KNOW he was a shell of what he was - but he was a very dangerous fighter still. Peralta is not worth mentioning to be honest. He was nothing special at all. Everytime he stepped up he lost, and was knocked out by the likes of Mauro Mina.

Oh, and Chuck Wepner was a total journeyman who was nothing. Ali defended his title against him, yes. And?

How the hell did Cooper nearly beat Holyfield? He floored him - but got his ass handed to him. That's like saying Hurtardo nearly beat Tszyu.

Schultz was nothing special. Good fighter, but not up there with the likes of a Terrell, Williams, Bugner etc.

Qawi was a great fighter. I should have mentioned him. My mistake.

What are you talking about with Spinks? That is like counting Marciano for Louis. Everyone knows he was shot. He was there for money, and because he loved the sport so much. He was showing early signs of motor skills deterioration - aka parkinsons.

hellfire508
11-25-2005, 06:13 AM
Who is the hater here? "Cooper KO'd Ali". WTF? He floored Ali with a mint left hook on the chin. Ali was up by 3, and walked to his corner. Watch the FULL fight - you will see that Dundee who HELPED the split along, gained approximately 20 seconds. And 1.5 minutes later - Cooper's face was in ribbons and the fight was over.

Da Iceman
11-25-2005, 09:16 PM
you can just go on and on and on about nothing

KidBlackie
11-26-2005, 12:01 AM
[[[[Now - Please name the heavyweight with a better resume than Ali. I'll wait for you. I don't know any others that went 11-2-0 against hall of famers. I named the likes of Williams and Moore because they were big names.]]]]]
========================================

Sure, JOE LOUIS, and I don't need 3 posts of nonsense like you do.

Ali was 11-3 against HOF fighters, not 11-2. Joe was 9-3, but Joe never got beat up by Leon Spinks either and has a better record and title record. The fact that you compare a fight with Leon to a fight with Marciano shows just how far you're sunk up Ali's bum.

And yeah, Moore was a big name, WAS being the operative word when Ali fought him, and NO, Williams was never that big of a name and no, NOBODY expected him to have a chance against Ali. Fact is that was a weak time in heavyweight boxing and Williams needed a paycheck so I don't begrudge Ali, but it was a joke fight. Now come on back and crack some more jokes about Ali. Funny fellow!

Dempsey 1919
11-26-2005, 12:22 AM
[[[[Now - Please name the heavyweight with a better resume than Ali. I'll wait for you. I don't know any others that went 11-2-0 against hall of famers. I named the likes of Williams and Moore because they were big names.]]]]]
========================================

Sure, JOE LOUIS, and I don't need 3 posts of nonsense like you do.

Ali was 11-3 against HOF fighters, not 11-2. Joe was 9-3, but Joe never got beat up by Leon Spinks either and has a better record and title record. The fact that you compare a fight with Leon to a fight with Marciano shows just how far you're sunk up Ali's bum.

And yeah, Moore was a big name, WAS being the operative word when Ali fought him, and NO, Williams was never that big of a name and no, NOBODY expected him to have a chance against Ali. Fact is that was a weak time in heavyweight boxing and Williams needed a paycheck so I don't begrudge Ali, but it was a joke fight. Now come on back and crack some more jokes about Ali. Funny fellow!

name the hall of famers louis beat.

KidBlackie
11-26-2005, 12:44 AM
[[[name the hall of famers louis beat.]]]]
=================

Do your own homework kid. Ain't it time you crawled out of Ali's jockstrap and learned to walk?

Dempsey 1919
11-26-2005, 12:56 AM
[[[name the hall of famers louis beat.]]]]
=================

Do your own homework kid. Ain't it time you crawled out of Ali's jockstrap and learned to walk?

well, since he couldn't answer my question, it proves my point.

hellfire508
11-26-2005, 02:44 AM
[[[[Now - Please name the heavyweight with a better resume than Ali. I'll wait for you. I don't know any others that went 11-2-0 against hall of famers. I named the likes of Williams and Moore because they were big names.]]]]]
========================================

Sure, JOE LOUIS, and I don't need 3 posts of nonsense like you do.

Ali was 11-3 against HOF fighters, not 11-2. Joe was 9-3, but Joe never got beat up by Leon Spinks either and has a better record and title record. The fact that you compare a fight with Leon to a fight with Marciano shows just how far you're sunk up Ali's bum.

And yeah, Moore was a big name, WAS being the operative word when Ali fought him, and NO, Williams was never that big of a name and no, NOBODY expected him to have a chance against Ali. Fact is that was a weak time in heavyweight boxing and Williams needed a paycheck so I don't begrudge Ali, but it was a joke fight. Now come on back and crack some more jokes about Ali. Funny fellow!

Please tell me the third fight Ali lost against a hall of famer? One against Norton, one against Frazier. Holmes isnt in there if that's what you're thinking.

And I'm not comparing Leon Spinks to Marciano. I'm just saying both fighters were at the end of their career - both shot - and therefore I don't necessarily count the losses for either of them. I never complain when someone has Louis above Ali. As long as those two are first two - I don't care. So I dunno what you're talking about. BUT, everyone knows Louis' resume was nowhere near as good as Ali's. He didn't beat another top 10 heavyweight - whereas Ali went 5-1 with 3 of them.

And YES, Williams was a fairly big name at the time. He had two huge fights with Liston - and was often avoided pre-1965. Ali took the fight because he was not allowed to fight in most US states, and not many fighters wanted anything to do with him in the US. After Ali went through Europe to get some fights under his belt because of the political trouble in the US, he fought Williams, Folley and Terrell within a few months of each other - because he felt he would be banned shortly. I think it was under two months between Terrell and Folley. And obviously you are a hater if you seriously believe it was a weak period of heavyweights. Liston, Ali, Patterson, Terrell, Chuvalo, Bonavena, Frazier, Folley, Quarry, Ellis. Quite strong if you ask me. Infact - one of the strongest behind the 70s and 90s.

hellfire508
11-26-2005, 02:48 AM
Oh and another thing - you say, "Louis never got beat up by Leon Spinks either". True - but Louis never fought when early symptoms of Parkinson's disease were emerging, and many doctors said there is no way Ali should fight. I won't even go into the Holmes fight health problems.

Dempsey 1919
11-26-2005, 02:53 AM
Oh and another thing - you say, "Louis never got beat up by Leon Spinks either". True - but Louis never fought when early symptoms of Parkinson's disease were emerging, and many doctors said there is no way Ali should fight. I won't even go into the Holmes fight health problems.

nice job!!

hellfire508
11-26-2005, 02:56 AM
well, since he couldn't answer my question, it proves my point.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of Louis being 8-3. But I'm not sure if there is more.

Braddock
Sharkey
Conn x2
Charles (loss)
Baer
Walcott x2
Schmelling 1-1
Marciano (loss)
Bivins

Pugnacious_Z
11-26-2005, 03:32 AM
Foreman is Physically the greatest fighter God ever produced

hellfire508
11-26-2005, 03:44 AM
You could be right. He was extremely gifted physically. I think Roy Jones is up there for most physically gifted.

However, I think Louis and Ali could beat Foreman in his prime. Holmes and Liston are borderline, I can never make up my mind.

Dempsey 1919
11-28-2005, 03:47 PM
Foreman is Physically the greatest fighter God ever produced

no, maybe tyson is, but ali is the best nontheless!

http://www.sportsposterwarehouse.com/warehouse/aligreatest05gb-1.jpg

LondonRingRules
11-28-2005, 04:25 PM
~~~~~~~Please tell me the third fight Ali lost against a hall of famer? One against Norton, one against Frazier. Holmes isnt in there if that's what you're thinking.~~~~~~~~~

* The Holmes fight is in the record book and counts. You can keep your own record of Ali, only remembering the best and ignoring the controversies, the gifts, the sluggish performances, but the official record still stands.

Dempsey 1919
11-28-2005, 04:29 PM
~~~~~~~Please tell me the third fight Ali lost against a hall of famer? One against Norton, one against Frazier. Holmes isnt in there if that's what you're thinking.~~~~~~~~~

* The Holmes fight is in the record book and counts. You can keep your own record of Ali, only remembering the best and ignoring the controversies, the gifts, the sluggish performances, but the official record still stands.

yeah, that's true.

fabulous
11-30-2005, 03:00 AM
Agree that Ali's win over Foreman is overrated. Worst illegal holding job ever. I don't see how Ali would have survived early rounds withouth holding Foreman behind the neck at every opportunity. Foreman was just too strong for him.

Dempsey 1919
11-30-2005, 06:41 PM
Agree that Ali's win over Foreman is overrated. Worst illegal holding job ever. I don't see how Ali would have survived early rounds withouth holding Foreman behind the neck at every opportunity. Foreman was just too strong for him.

if you thing what ali did was illegal then you should see what foreman did to his opponents! pushing them, rabbit punching, just watch the first frazier fight. ali was just preventing foreman from doing those things to him. and ali beat foreman fair and square, you can't downgrade the greatest!

fabulous
12-01-2005, 01:39 PM
if you thing what ali did was illegal then you should see what foreman did to his opponents! pushing them, rabbit punching, just watch the first frazier fight. ali was just preventing foreman from doing those things to him. and ali beat foreman fair and square, you can't downgrade the greatest!

Yeah right :D Frazier wanted to fight inside, Foreman pushed him away sometimes. Ali never wanted and in fact couldn't fight inside, especially against Foreman. If you mean rabbit punch which sent Frazier to the canvas then it wasn't nice but that can happen if you turn back to the opponent when you are hurt.
Ali was illegal holder through his entire career, including all fights with Frazier, Norton, Young. But in fight with Foreman it was totally out of control.
Illegal holding was main technique for Ali in that fight. It weared Foreman down and made possible to survive early rounds. Ali also kept talking throught that fight, without illegal holding Foreman wouldn't only brake his jaw like Norton did ...

Dempsey 1919
12-01-2005, 02:19 PM
Yeah right :D Frazier wanted to fight inside, Foreman pushed him away sometimes. Ali never wanted and in fact couldn't fight inside, especially against Foreman. If you mean rabbit punch which sent Frazier to the canvas then it wasn't nice but that can happen if you turn back to the opponent when you are hurt.
Ali was illegal holder through his entire career, including all fights with Frazier, Norton, Young. But in fight with Foreman it was totally out of control.
Illegal holding was main technique for Ali in that fight. It weared Foreman down and made possible to survive early rounds. Ali also kept talking throught that fight, without illegal holding Foreman wouldn't only brake his jaw like Norton did ...

get out of here. foreman was like the karl malone of boxing (very dirty style of play), at least in the 70s he was. that was what most of his fights consisted of. i remember one fight, was it peralta, it was probably someone else. the bell rang for the first round and foreman rushed out and intentionally just pushed the man down. he was constantly pushing his opponent to throw him off balance, and when he was off-balance, he threw a hay maker, and that's how he won alot of his fights in the early 70s.

McKay 1
12-01-2005, 02:20 PM
The guy who started this thread is a moron. Please dont confuse me with the author of this thread. We are not the same person.

fabulous
12-01-2005, 05:00 PM
get out of here. foreman was like the karl malone of boxing (very dirty style of play), at least in the 70s he was. that was what most of his fights consisted of. i remember one fight, was it peralta, it was probably someone else. the bell rang for the first round and foreman rushed out and intentionally just pushed the man down. he was constantly pushing his opponent to throw him off balance, and when he was off-balance, he threw a hay maker, and that's how he won alot of his fights in the early 70s.

yeah, Foreman knocked out his opponents because of pushing :D Seems that we have young Ali's nuthugger here.

Dempsey 1919
12-01-2005, 05:44 PM
yeah, Foreman knocked out his opponents because of pushing :D Seems that we have young Ali's nuthugger here.

i wasn't even talking about ali, you brought him up first, i was talking about foreman.

hellfire508
12-10-2005, 02:07 AM
~~~~~~~Please tell me the third fight Ali lost against a hall of famer? One against Norton, one against Frazier. Holmes isnt in there if that's what you're thinking.~~~~~~~~~

* The Holmes fight is in the record book and counts. You can keep your own record of Ali, only remembering the best and ignoring the controversies, the gifts, the sluggish performances, but the official record still stands.

No I meant Holmes isnt in the hall of fame.

LondonRingRules
12-10-2005, 10:00 AM
=========No I meant Holmes isnt in the hall of fame.===========

**Holmes is a HOF fighter. His induction is guaranteed and a mere formality of the rules. Splitting hairs won't get you far in a sport like boxing.

hellfire508
12-12-2005, 07:31 AM
=========No I meant Holmes isnt in the hall of fame.===========

**Holmes is a HOF fighter. His induction is guaranteed and a mere formality of the rules. Splitting hairs won't get you far in a sport like boxing.


Boo f**king hoo. I stated a fact, deal with it. Everyone knows he will be in the HOF. I'm stating what the present situation is - which is FACT.

LondonRingRules
12-12-2005, 04:48 PM
Boo f**king hoo. I stated a fact, deal with it. Everyone knows he will be in the HOF. I'm stating what the present situation is - which is FACT.
I stated Holmes is a HOF fighter. That's a fact and guaranteed and everyone knows it but you.

hellfire508
12-13-2005, 06:44 AM
I stated Holmes is a HOF fighter. That's a fact and guaranteed and everyone knows it but you.

Everyone but me? I just said he was a HOF fighter retard. He isn't officially in there though. Are you that stupid to understand?

whdempsey
12-13-2005, 07:22 AM
When was Ali's prime? no doubt the fight that made his career was the win over foreman that was in 1974, so you should say 1974 was his prime. His win over Liston is overrated because Liston was all f***ed up when they fought and took a dive in one of the fights. . If Muhammad Ali never beat Foreman he would be regarded so much lower. He lost to Leon Spinks in Spinks's 8th professional fight 5 months after Ali won a UD over Shavers. He lost to Ken Norton in 1971, got his jaw broken in that fight. And Ken Norton was a nobody before he fought Ali, the guy he fought before fighting ALi was 22-8 and so were all the opponents Norton had fought up to that point. His only notable win besides beating ALi was stopping Jerry Quarrey.

Beating Foreman is what made ALI be able to say "I am the greatest" He just had the right game plan and style to beat Foreman.

Foreman made Norton and Frazier and Lyle look like nothing while 2 of those guys beat Ali in his prime. Foreman knocked Norton out in 2. Knocked Frazier down 5 times etc....
Ali basically got lucky against Foreman, if they ever rematched Foreman would have beaten his ass. Ali's mind games got to him and fighting in Africa was kinda a freak thing that might have screwed Georges psyche up.

Foreman KO'd Ron Lyle in 5 while Ali was loosing his fight against Lyle until Ali got a gift premature stoppage, the ref stopped the fight just because Ali flurried basically it was one of the worst stoppages I have ever seen, if the ref was honest Lyle would have went on to beat Ali. The win over Lyle is one Ali's biggest wins, and he did not deserve to win that fight. And of course look how much Ali struggled with Frazier but Foreman obliterated him.


George Foreman is better than Ali, George Foreman made Ali, George Foreman is the real greatest of the 70's. George Foreman is the man who made the man who you proclaim falsely as being the man in boxing.

http://biografieonline.it/img/bio/g/George_Foreman.jpg

http://www.forbesbookclub.com/bookimages/ingram/074/320/0743200934.gif
Your ignorace is overwhelming. If Foreman fought Ali a hundred times he would lose at least ninety per cent of the time. Bottom line: that's the way their styles matchup.

Dempsey 1919
12-13-2005, 05:00 PM
Your ignorace is overwhelming. If Foreman fought Ali a hundred times he would lose at least ninety per cent of the time. Bottom line: that's the way their styles matchup.

actually, if foreman fought ali a hundred times foreman would lose a hundred times.

hellfire508
12-14-2005, 06:21 AM
Why would Ali lose 100 times?

Dempsey 1919
12-14-2005, 12:20 PM
Why would Ali lose 100 times?

i mean foreman would lose a hundred times, haha, my mistake.

Brassangel
12-16-2005, 04:02 PM
While a number of factors participated in Ali's overcoming one of the largest victories in the history of boxing, that's what made Ali the greatest. He had the uncanny ability to use every resource to his advantage.

1. It was 90 degrees in Zaire, so Ali let the bigger, slower Foreman chase him around the ring and punch himself out against the ropes. This probably caused Foreman to suffer at least a small case of dehydration, rendering his arms even less effective.

2. Foreman had only trained for a 4 round fight. To take advantage of this, Ali did just enough to survive the early goings (while scoring), and get to a much more comfortable position in the fight.

3. Ali's style was suited very well, even in the 70's, to fight a slow, cumbersome slugger. His hand speed, ability to disrupt a rhythm, and conditioning will almost always outlast a heavy, tree-trunk series of swings.

George Foreman should be in the top ten of all-time greats; possibly the top five. While it's very true that one clean shot could have ended it, I imagine that this was in Ali's mind as well. He knew that Foreman could bring the house down; that's what made Ali the best. He was the smartest, and most cunning fighter in the history of the sport. :boxing:

Dempsey 1919
12-16-2005, 04:04 PM
While a number of factors participated in Ali's overcoming one of the largest victories in the history of boxing, that's what made Ali the greatest. He had the uncanny ability to use every resource to his advantage.

1. It was 90 degrees in Zaire, so Ali let the bigger, slower Foreman chase him around the ring and punch himself out against the ropes.

2. Foreman had only trained for a 4 round fight. To take advantage of this, Ali did just enough to survive the early goings and get to a much more comfortably position in the fight to assume an offense of his own.

3. Ali's style was suited very well, even in the 70's, to fight a slow, cumbersome slugger. His hand speed, ability to disrupt a rhythm, and conditioning will almost always outlast a heavy, tree-trunk series of swings.

George Foreman should be in the top ten of all-time greats; possibly the top five. While it's very true that one clean shot could have ended it, I imagine that this was in Ali's mind as well. He knew that Foreman could bring the house down; that's what made Ali the best. He was the smartest, and most cunning fighter in the history of the sport. :boxing:

he was also the fastest, and the most accurate.

Brassangel
12-16-2005, 04:07 PM
In 1974, he was probably still the most accurate, although his speed had come down a notch. Even so, his hands were quick enough to follow through with a perfect game plan against Big George.

bud.rud
12-30-2005, 01:29 PM
You guys make too many excuses. Both sides of the fence. You also fail to realize that its pointless to be making all these "what-if"s. point is, whats done is done, and whatever "could" have happened or "would" have happened (by each of your owns opinions) has not happened and will never happen now that they're all retired and incapable of fighting. You guys get too caught up in your own fantasies that foreman would have won. Well he didnt. Given a rematch noone knows what the outcome would have been. And who cares how he's the Greatest, somehow someway Ali is widely accepted as the Greatest. Whats done is done and cant be undone. Please stop with the what-ifs and excuses. By stating all this im not saying ali is any greater than foreman just because he beat him. That day he was. Any given day someone can have your number. Sometimes its takes 100 days. Thats just the way the world works. And you cant change the past or magically predict things by what you think you know about a situation.
Anyway, give it up and accept the current state of the world as it is. Given different circumstances and a different president we may not be in Iraq right now but we are. Give up the hopes and dreams of changing the past.

and btw, im totally non partisan when it comes to boxers. i dont care how good they say ali is. if he wins he wins, loses he loses but many (and i mean many) will always tell you Ali is the greatest. for some reason these MANY people see this. accept it. dont have to say Ali is the greatest but at least dont go flaming him when you have no proof of whether or no george foreman would have beat him given different circumstances because guess what-- the circumstances of that fight are what they are and there will never be another one to prove/disprove any of you guys.

just trying to shed some light (not saying i did) but i hope you guys can take something from this (especially the imaginary fights stuff--they wont happen and they definitely dont stand as proof of anything)
THANKS!

Dempsey 1919
12-30-2005, 01:39 PM
You guys make too many excuses. Both sides of the fence. You also fail to realize that its pointless to be making all these "what-if"s. point is, whats done is done, and whatever "could" have happened or "would" have happened (by each of your owns opinions) has not happened and will never happen now that they're all retired and incapable of fighting. You guys get too caught up in your own fantasies that foreman would have won. Well he didnt. Given a rematch noone knows what the outcome would have been. And who cares how he's the Greatest, somehow someway Ali is widely accepted as the Greatest. Whats done is done and cant be undone. Please stop with the what-ifs and excuses. By stating all this im not saying ali is any greater than foreman just because he beat him. That day he was. Any given day someone can have your number. Sometimes its takes 100 days. Thats just the way the world works. And you cant change the past or magically predict things by what you think you know about a situation.
Anyway, give it up and accept the current state of the world as it is. Given different circumstances and a different president we may not be in Iraq right now but we are. Give up the hopes and dreams of changing the past.

and btw, im totally non partisan when it comes to boxers. i dont care how good they say ali is. if he wins he wins, loses he loses but many (and i mean many) will always tell you Ali is the greatest. for some reason these MANY people see this. accept it. dont have to say Ali is the greatest but at least dont go flaming him when you have no proof of whether or no george foreman would have beat him given different circumstances because guess what-- the circumstances of that fight are what they are and there will never be another one to prove/disprove any of you guys.

just trying to shed some light (not saying i did) but i hope you guys can take something from this (especially the imaginary fights stuff--they wont happen and they definitely dont stand as proof of anything)
THANKS!

nice post!

Brassangel
12-30-2005, 01:46 PM
I agree. This certainly displays similar pent-up responses lingering in the souls of us all.

On the other side of the plate, however, is the fact that this forum is 75% speculation, which means opinions and undocumented proofs have to emerge from time-to-time. Chances are, that won't stop no matter how brilliant your post is.

bud.rud
12-31-2005, 05:56 AM
Oh yea... something i was thinking about in the shower (my best thoughts tend to come there). Just a recap kinda thought.
To say anyone is the greatest boxer ever is speculation and largely just opinion. No one will ever know who is the greatest boxer ever as you would have had to pit each boxer against all the reputable names in boxing about 100 times each to get a nice probability (in which would, in a lot of cases, still lead to more speculation) to show who would be the greatest ever. And as you can obviously tell this is impossible for many reasons. (if you need me to explain them to you please grab a fork and jam it into your forehead).
So to say anyone is the greatest is obviously just opinion and will never be fact. Reason why people say Ali is the greatest=mass majority opinion tends to lean towards Ali being the greatest. Thats all. And yes i know these comparisons are going to be inevitable because its human nature to figure out what is UNKNOWN to them.
And the point of my post isnt an attempt to end these comparisons but to try to convince people to at least be wiser about the assumptions and reearch before they make bold statements.

supaduck
12-31-2005, 07:36 AM
Ali was better than Foreman. Foreman is still a top 5 heavyweight of all time though.

The excuse of the 100 degree heat is stupid, because Ali had to put up with it as well.

bud.rud
12-31-2005, 08:34 AM
The excuse of the 100 degree heat is stupid, because Ali had to put up with it as well.
Exactly the point im trying to make. These excuses hold no credibility.

supaduck
12-31-2005, 01:26 PM
The only advantage Ali had was the support of the African people. If George took badly to this, all that does is make me question his heart. Still, his annihilation of Joe Frazier alone makes him one of my favourite boxers ever.

moondog0
01-04-2006, 02:14 PM
theres SupaDuck praising Ali again, Ali self proclaimed himself the greatest from his first fight, no know one else has ever done that , that's why millions of ignorant fans who only watch the sport once every five years holler he's the best. Foreman made him, he sure wan't made by Liston or Frazier...

Dempsey 1919
01-04-2006, 02:55 PM
theres SupaDuck praising Ali again, Ali self proclaimed himself the greatest from his first fight, no know one else has ever done that , that's why millions of ignorant fans who only watch the sport once every five years holler he's the best. Foreman made him, he sure wan't made by Liston or Frazier...

foreman made him? another idotic post. number one ali made ali, nobody else did. second, there are many reasons people say he's the greatest. some say cause he was smart and mastered the mind games. some people said cause he fought and beat the best competition, and some people like me say he was the greatest because his prime talents were unmatched by any fighter in history, so that would make the foreman win insignificant really, cause ali didn't fight foreman in his prime.

sweeetscience
01-04-2006, 03:15 PM
foreman made him? another idotic post. number one ali made ali, nobody else did. second, there are many reasons people say he's the greatest. some say cause he was smart and mastered the mind games. some people said cause he fought and beat the best competition, and some people like me say he was the greatest because his prime talents were unmatched by any fighter in history, so that would make the foreman win insignificant really, cause ali didn't fight foreman in his prime.AS much as I believe there has been too much Ali hype over the years There can be no mistake Ali in his prime was the greatest of that era. The second half of Ali's carrer commanded great fights but he was not the Ali of old. As for Big George...well it appears he won in the end and it couldn'r happen to a better guy.
I remembe the build up to that fight in Ziare.. After looking at a picture of a scowling Goerge I thought Ali was dead....and then.....

sweeetscience
01-04-2006, 03:19 PM
I can spell if I want...but this is about boxing ..not grammar...I will endeavour to check my posts lest my extensive knowledge be misunderstood...just playin'

Heckler
01-08-2006, 02:09 AM
ali would always beat foreman, over and over again. His style, one dimensional slow, prodding and powerful does not work well against Alis. Ali can absorb all the punishment, in the process big fighters spend themselves and he can slowly break them down with sheer number and speed of punches. If they fought again Foreman would have to do the same thing, hed be more conservative with his punches and as a result loose on points.

LondonRingRules
01-08-2006, 11:46 AM
ali would always beat foreman, over and over again. His style, one dimensional slow, prodding and powerful does not work well against Alis. Ali can absorb all the punishment, in the process big fighters spend themselves and he can slowly break them down with sheer number and speed of punches. If they fought again Foreman would have to do the same thing, hed be more conservative with his punches and as a result loose on points.
You obviously didn't see Ali's post Foreman bouts starting with Wepner. the man had no punch left and was propped up by Don King and his fans and supporters to squeeze all the gold out of him.

It was a magnificent upset for Ali against a fighter who couldn't train properly because of circumstances and Ali admits that it was his most important fight. George was on the cover of SI calling Ali out for the rematch and in every one of his fights to no avail. It was Ali and his team who feared the rematch.

Yaman
01-08-2006, 11:51 AM
Foreman one of my all time favorite boxers. Also a great man.

Southpaw Stinger
01-08-2006, 12:37 PM
I'm a big Foreman fan. He was a great guy.

gandhalf
01-08-2006, 02:28 PM
imo Foreman had the potential to beat Ali. (but he had a bad strategy and his gas tank was not good enough)
Having said that,a prime Foreman would've owned a good majority of today's top boxers.
Prime foreman vs prime tyson, i'd still pick Foreman as the favorite. Especially because Tyson avoided Foreman. He was scared of him.

Southpaw Stinger
01-08-2006, 02:41 PM
Prime Foreman would destroy todays heavyweights. He even could in his 40's.

Having said that,a prime Foreman would've owned a good majority of today's top boxers.
Prime foreman vs prime tyson, i'd still pick Foreman as the favorite. Especially because Tyson avoided Foreman. He was scared of him.

True..
But Ali still kicked his ass!

Heckler
01-08-2006, 03:29 PM
Ali was past his prime in 74, Foreman went on a 2 year hiatus i believe...... and no way should he be fighting Foreman in 76 nor should he be fighting ANYONE. Foreman was scared of Ali following that bout, he said he had bad nightmares, so i cant see him being to keen to fight at any rate. My point is, in 74, no matter how times foreman fought Ali he would still loose. Against foreman, liston-esque opponents Ali was at his best. He loved fighting on the back foot, and they never managed to overwhelm him because they lacked both handspeed, and the swarming ducking/weaving style that made Ali uncomfortable. He could simply keep his distance, use range and overwhelm them with handspeed. Guys like foreman didn't really stand a chance because they were all about the knockout, and unfortunately Ali had the conditioning and the jaw to absorb it. If he re-fought Ali what could he do differently? speed and conventional boxing ability are not aqquired overnight, Foreman was a lousy boxer in a technical sense but his strength allowed him to get away with it. He could throw less to ensure he doesn't gas, but that would enable Ali to control the fight without the extra pressure, counterpunch with superior speed and take the fight on points. Foreman was definately a great, but Ali exsposed his weaknesses as did Norton to Ali.

Heckler
01-08-2006, 03:32 PM
lol don't bring up the wepner thing up again. Wepner has claimed fame as a result of a dirty tactic. Ali met wepner following that fight, Wepner went to shake his hand and Ali stomped on his foot. Ali has always claimed that Wepner stood on his foot when he threw that body shot. And im inclined to believe that the guy with the best conditioned body in boxing history is telling the truth, Wepner was nothing special and wouldn't drop Ali fairly with a body shot if Foreman couldn't.

LondonRingRules
01-08-2006, 05:38 PM
lol don't bring up the wepner thing up again. Wepner has claimed fame as a result of a dirty tactic. Ali met wepner following that fight, Wepner went to shake his hand and Ali stomped on his foot. Ali has always claimed that Wepner stood on his foot when he threw that body shot. And im inclined to believe that the guy with the best conditioned body in boxing history is telling the truth, Wepner was nothing special and wouldn't drop Ali fairly with a body shot if Foreman couldn't.
** You're not credible because you lack context. You're a worshipper. Calling Ali the best conditioned fighter ever is a joke.

Wepner exposed Ali as shot. Gotta credit Ali for hanging in and perservering with ring generalship and help from the judges/ref in his post Foreman career.

Sorry, but I jumped off the Ali bandwagon years before he lost to Spinks. That's right, the "undisputed" self proclaimed greatest lost to Leon Spinks. I really can't think of a more pitiful heavyweight title performance except for maybe the Jack Johnson bout with Battling Johnson that even had the French holding their noses and booing or Liston taking a dive in their 2nd bout or Liston quitting on his stool in the 1st bout.

Dempsey 1919
01-08-2006, 06:52 PM
** You're not credible because you lack context. You're a worshipper. Calling Ali the best conditioned fighter ever is a joke.

Wepner exposed Ali as shot. Gotta credit Ali for hanging in and perservering with ring generalship and help from the judges/ref in his post Foreman career.

Sorry, but I jumped off the Ali bandwagon years before he lost to Spinks. That's right, the "undisputed" self proclaimed greatest lost to Leon Spinks. I really can't think of a more pitiful heavyweight title performance except for maybe the Jack Johnson bout with Battling Johnson that even had the French holding their noses and booing or Liston taking a dive in their 2nd bout or Liston quitting on his stool in the 1st bout.

wepner did not expose ali. wepner was hit at will, and basically ali looked like the way he was in 1967! wepner couldn't hit him, unless ali went into the rope-a-dope. i really do not know where you get your information from.

Dempsey1238
01-08-2006, 07:03 PM
Wepner did hit Ali IN EVEY ROUND of the 15 rounds.

Body shots, and a few head shot. and a LOT of Rabbit punchs I might add. Ali is not this untounchble God you make him out to be.

The thing about Weapner vs Ali, is Ali landed MORE punchs, and thown MORE punchs than Wepner.

Dempsey 1919
01-08-2006, 07:15 PM
Wepner did hit Ali IN EVEY ROUND of the 15 rounds.

Body shots, and a few head shot. and a LOT of Rabbit punchs I might add. Ali is not this untounchble God you make him out to be.

The thing about Weapner vs Ali, is Ali landed MORE punchs, and thown MORE punchs than Wepner.

he did land a few punches, but ali was not exposed as this guy said. that was a rather easy title defense for muhammad.

Heckler
01-09-2006, 05:34 AM
** You're not credible because you lack context. You're a worshipper. Calling Ali the best conditioned fighter ever is a joke.

Wepner exposed Ali as shot. Gotta credit Ali for hanging in and perservering with ring generalship and help from the judges/ref in his post Foreman career.

Sorry, but I jumped off the Ali bandwagon years before he lost to Spinks. That's right, the "undisputed" self proclaimed greatest lost to Leon Spinks. I really can't think of a more pitiful heavyweight title performance except for maybe the Jack Johnson bout with Battling Johnson that even had the French holding their noses and booing or Liston taking a dive in their 2nd bout or Liston quitting on his stool in the 1st bout.

Listen, ***** im not an Ali fanboy. I think hes the greatest of all time but i acknowledge his faults and accept that he COULD be beaten. The most conditioned in regard to being able to absorb punishment inflicted on the body. Please show me another fighter that has able to absorb so much punishment. Part of it was sheer determination and heart but the other was brilliant body conditioning. Ali shouldnt of been ****en fighting past 1975, and yeah Ali left most of his ability in the ring that night against Frazier. The fight against spinks means NOTHING, he was a shot fighter, he shouldn't of been in the ring AT ALL.... the fact that you would use that loss against him in a debate is ****en pathetic

Wepner did not drop Ali legitimately, and that is widely accepted among non-rockyfanboys and sportswriters. If Foreman couldn't do it, this guy didn't stand a ****en chance. Ali was alot of things, Arrogant and sometimes cruel... but he wasn't a liar.

hellfire508
01-09-2006, 07:26 AM
Ali was shot against Wepner. He looked awful. He looked awful against Lyle. He looked awful against Young. Etc.

Secondly - Ali losing to Spinks means absolutely nothing. Nobody takes it into account - like the Holmes and Berbick bouts. Same goes for Robinson, Louis, Tyson...etc...all lost at the shot end of their careers...nobody really cares.

hellfire508
01-09-2006, 07:31 AM
Heckler - It's ignorance like yours that annoys me. Sorry, I shouldn't say it that harshly - as I agree with almost everything you said until the end. Good job up until then.

When you say, "if Foreman couldn't do it, then this guy didnt stand a chance.." That is ludicrous. Just because George is the hardest hitter ever, doesn't mean Wepner couldn't drop Ali. Did Cooper or Banks hit harder than George? Ali was green when he fought these two - not so much Cooper - but was dropped nonetheless. Knockdowns aren't all about power. It's like saying, Schmelling KO'd Louis - so Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Lewis etc. could too.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 10:13 AM
Ali was shot against Wepner. He looked awful. He looked awful against Lyle. He looked awful against Young. Etc.

Secondly - Ali losing to Spinks means absolutely nothing. Nobody takes it into account - like the Holmes and Berbick bouts. Same goes for Robinson, Louis, Tyson...etc...all lost at the shot end of their careers...nobody really cares.

i wouldn't say he was shot against wepner. he basically embarrased the bayonne bleeder.

Dempsey 1919
01-09-2006, 10:14 AM
Heckler - It's ignorance like yours that annoys me. Sorry, I shouldn't say it that harshly - as I agree with almost everything you said until the end. Good job up until then.

When you say, "if Foreman couldn't do it, then this guy didnt stand a chance.." That is ludicrous. Just because George is the hardest hitter ever, doesn't mean Wepner couldn't drop Ali. Did Cooper or Banks hit harder than George? Ali was green when he fought these two - not so much Cooper - but was dropped nonetheless. Knockdowns aren't all about power. It's like saying, Schmelling KO'd Louis - so Foreman, Frazier, Tyson, Lewis etc. could too.

ali was young, small and inexperienced back then. no way wepner could drop ali.

hellfire508
01-09-2006, 07:29 PM
ali was young, small and inexperienced back then. no way wepner could drop ali.

Butterfly - would you think Young could drop Foreman? Of course Wepner could drop Ali. Any fighter can drop any fighter. This is boxing. The knockdown was NOT legitimate, but it doesn't mean Ali couldnt be dropped. What about against Frazier? Was Ali inexperienced then? Ali could be dropped. He was not a unhittable, god you portray him to be. He is my favourite fighter, but I am objective when it comes to him.

hellfire508
01-09-2006, 07:32 PM
i wouldn't say he was shot against wepner. he basically embarrased the bayonne bleeder.

Let me put it this way. He wasn't totally shot. But he was nearly there. He made Wepner look like **** because he was ****. In all of the fights - except Frazier III - after Foreman, Ali looked pretty crap. He was gone. Have you seen Ali-LyLe? Its proably Ali's most sluggish and **** performance except for Spinks, Holmes etc.

Southpaw Stinger
01-09-2006, 08:13 PM
Let me put it this way. He wasn't totally shot. But he was nearly there. He made Wepner look like **** because he was ****. In all of the fights - except Frazier III - after Foreman, Ali looked pretty crap. He was gone. Have you seen Ali-LyLe? Its proably Ali's most sluggish and **** performance except for Spinks, Holmes etc.

Ali stayed on way too long. I think he wanted to make up for lost time because of his lay off. Thrilla in Mannilla was Ali's last truely great performance.

hellfire508
01-09-2006, 08:29 PM
Ali stayed on way too long. I think he wanted to make up for lost time because of his lay off. Thrilla in Mannilla was Ali's last truely great performance.

Yes it was. Though his performances between Zaire and Manilla were quite terrible. A shell of the Ali of 67. The one that would have taken apart any heavyweight in history.

LondonRingRules
01-09-2006, 09:36 PM
he did land a few punches, but ali was not exposed as this guy said. that was a rather easy title defense for muhammad.
** Easy for you to say while Ali is a shaking leaf ready to fall in the winds of life.

Don't worry kid, you got plenty of time to develop some gravitus, some wisdom, some experience. If not, well, you'll be one of the "early ones" who blissfully never knew what it was!

LondonRingRules
01-09-2006, 09:48 PM
Listen, ***** im not an Ali fanboy. I think hes the greatest of all time but i acknowledge his faults and accept that he COULD be beaten. The most conditioned in regard to being able to absorb punishment inflicted on the body. Please show me another fighter that has able to absorb so much punishment. Part of it was sheer determination and heart but the other was brilliant body conditioning. Ali shouldnt of been ****en fighting past 1975, and yeah Ali left most of his ability in the ring that night against Frazier. The fight against spinks means NOTHING, he was a shot fighter, he shouldn't of been in the ring AT ALL.... the fact that you would use that loss against him in a debate is ****en pathetic

Wepner did not drop Ali legitimately, and that is widely accepted among non-rockyfanboys and sportswriters. If Foreman couldn't do it, this guy didn't stand a ****en chance. Ali was alot of things, Arrogant and sometimes cruel... but he wasn't a liar.
Maybe you're just Ali's plain ol' boy.

Fact: Ali looked like you against Wepner.

Fact: Ali could barely break an egg after Foreman

Fact: Ali started to have to go into later rounds, often against inferior journeymen and usually the distance after Foreman.

Fact: Ali has more controversial decisions than you have hemorrhoids.

Fact: Regardless of the nature of his wins, Ali got lots of credit for his 11 consecutive title wins, but he lost to Spinks. Either you take away some of those title victories or admit to the loss to Leon toothless Spinks, but don't be blowin' some of your shrine incense smoke up the board bum.

hellfire508
01-10-2006, 07:52 AM
London - Ali was definately shot, but he still beat those guys when he was shot. You can't just take them away. But I see where you are coming from.

LondonRingRules
01-10-2006, 09:22 AM
London - Ali was definately shot, but he still beat those guys when he was shot. You can't just take them away. But I see where you are coming from.
"Beat" is a relative term. When we see those guys today, clearly Ali was taking a great deal of punishment, much more than the scores and the ref's decisions would indicate.

While I admire Ali greatly, he also had a terrible side to him that is usually glossed over by the fawning press of the 70s. Seeing how much of the 60s press and Americans were prebiased against him, perhaps in this decade a definitive Ali bio can be written.

Dempsey 1919
01-10-2006, 12:10 PM
:hijacked: :D

Hydro
04-04-2006, 12:31 AM
Ali clowned Foreman. Foreman fought like a dummy.

Foreman is maybe the biggest con man in boxing history....a truly smart businessman/salesman. He milked that cheesy smile for 9 figures!!!

Verstyle
04-04-2006, 12:34 AM
Ali clowned Foreman. Foreman fought like a dummy.

Foreman is maybe the biggest con man in boxing history....a truly smart businessman/salesman. He milked that cheesy smile for 9 figures!!!


whos alt r u. tell me in a private message

smasher
04-04-2006, 01:18 AM
" he also had a terrible side to him that is usually glossed over by the fawning press of the 70s.
Elaborate...

hemichromis
04-09-2006, 08:20 AM
Ali out smarrted foreman, foreman was a hot head and ali said stuff like 'you punch like a sissy' this made foreman angry so he muscled his punches punching over and over again but ali covered and luckily he had the best chin of any boxer IMO. foreman was stupid to punch himself out. in a rematch foreman would hopefully be smarter he certainly was for his second coming

Hydro
04-11-2006, 07:18 PM
Ali out smarrted foreman, foreman was a hot head and ali said stuff like 'you punch like a sissy' this made foreman angry so he muscled his punches punching over and over again but ali covered and luckily he had the best chin of any boxer IMO. foreman was stupid to punch himself out. in a rematch foreman would hopefully be smarter he certainly was for his second coming

Most of the punches Foreman landed were to the body.