View Full Version : Fighters Who Get Called ATG's, But In Your Opinion Aren't.


Southpaw16BF
01-11-2010, 10:51 AM
Who are fighters that get called All Time Greats, but in your opinion actuualy arent and shound't be called a ATG?

You can list as many as you want, but you also have to give reason why you have them in your list.

sonnyboyx2
01-11-2010, 11:35 AM
Harry Wills... he gets lots of pros on this forum but IMO i think he is being vastly over-rated, Jack Dempsey could not fight him due to the color bar but i cannot accept that if they had fought Wills would have won... Jack Sharkey knocked Wills from pillar-to-Post and defeated him quit easily..Wills was obviously a very good fighter but some on here have him ATG Top 3 which i find bazaar...a couple of others to add:

Joe Calzaghe
Diego Coralles

Ziggy Stardust
01-11-2010, 12:12 PM
Who are fighters that get called All Time Greats, but in your opinion actuualy arent and shound't be called a ATG?

You can list as many as you want, but you also have to give reason why you have them in your list.

The Klitschkos come to mind. Vitali has the potential to crack the list and should probably be considered a "near" great but without any A class or even B class opponents to test his abilities against how can we really know how good he is? Wlad lacks the chin and stamina to be even a near-great. He piles up dominating wins against the journeymen that pass for contenders these days that he also has a big reach advantage over, but that really isn't a test that tells us anything about him. Three in-prime KO losses to journeyman fighters count heavily against him as well.

I've also seen Cotto, Margarito, Abraham, and Paul Williams referred to as ATGs from time to time which seems to me to be really lowering the bar.

Poet

Southpaw16BF
01-11-2010, 12:29 PM
The Klitschkos come to mind. Vitali has the potential to crack the list and should probably be considered a "near" great but without any A class or even B class opponents to test his abilities against how can we really know how good he is? Wlad lacks the chin and stamina to be even a near-great. He piles up dominating wins against the journeymen that pass for contenders these days that he also has a big reach advantage over, but that really isn't a test that tells us anything about him. Three in-prime KO losses to journeyman fighters count heavily against him as well.

I've also seen Cotto, Margarito, Abraham, and Paul Williams referred to as ATGs from time to time which seems to me to be really lowering the bar.

Poet

Agreed. None as of now are ATG fighters. Here's a interesting one Poet, do you belive Aaron Pryor is a ATG?

Ziggy Stardust
01-11-2010, 12:35 PM
Agreed. None as of now are ATG fighters. Here's a interesting one Poet, do you belive Aaron Pryor is a ATG?

He's a borderline case. Not much of a track record against good opposition, and I would have a hard time making a case for him based on two wins against a past-prime Arguello who was fighting well over his optimum weight class. It's just a tough call without quality wins on his record.

Poet

Flab
01-11-2010, 12:38 PM
Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier.

sonnyboyx2
01-11-2010, 12:39 PM
Agreed. None as of now are ATG fighters. Here's a interesting one Poet, do you belive Aaron Pryor is a ATG?

The IBHOF has Aaron Pryor listed as The Greatest 140lb fighter in Boxing History

rod_serrs
01-11-2010, 12:50 PM
The Klitschkos come to mind. Vitali has the potential to crack the list and should probably be considered a "near" great but without any A class or even B class opponents to test his abilities against how can we really know how good he is? Wlad lacks the chin and stamina to be even a near-great. He piles up dominating wins against the journeymen that pass for contenders these days that he also has a big reach advantage over, but that really isn't a test that tells us anything about him. Three in-prime KO losses to journeyman fighters count heavily against him as well.

I've also seen Cotto, Margarito, Abraham, and Paul Williams referred to as ATGs from time to time which seems to me to be really lowering the bar.

PoetI don't know man. Vitali can probably be on that list. He's fought the best in the division, and it is not his fault that the opposition hasn't been what it was years ago. I think that Vitali could have beaten a lot of the past heavyweights or given them hell at the very least. He definitely has what it takes to make the list. At least in my opinion.

GJC
01-11-2010, 01:43 PM
I always have trouble with Tony Zale, fought in probably as strong a MW era as there has been and fought very few.

Southpaw16BF
01-11-2010, 05:57 PM
I always have trouble with Tony Zale, fought in probably as strong a MW era as there has been and fought very few.

Pretty interesting one there...........

cooper5
01-11-2010, 07:23 PM
Modern fighters that accumilate mulitple titles but carefully pick opponents. In the day there was one title and to get a shot you had to face the top guys. You couldn't look at the ratings and see four guys in the top five the champion hasn't fought.

Ziggy Stardust
01-11-2010, 07:52 PM
I should probably add Naseem Hamed to my list.

Poet

Earl Hickey
01-11-2010, 07:55 PM
I don't know man. Vitali can probably be on that list. He's fought the best in the division, and it is not his fault that the opposition hasn't been what it was years ago. I think that Vitali could have beaten a lot of the past heavyweights or given them hell at the very least. He definitely has what it takes to make the list. At least in my opinion.

Vitali Klitschko's best win is...................

I dont even know, Danny Williams? maybe?

Ziggy Stardust
01-11-2010, 08:10 PM
Vitali Klitschko's best win is...................

I dont even know, Danny Williams? maybe?

:thinking: He looked pretty damn good against Arreola but then again it was against ARREOLA. That's what makes it so damn difficult to gage how good he is: Without solid opponents how can you really tell? :dunno: Based on what I've seen of BOTH Ks Vitali is clearly the better of the two. He's shown toughness, chin, stamina, and a solid workrate: Things that Wlad has been shown to be deficient in.

Poet

mickey malone
01-11-2010, 09:12 PM
QUOTE: SONNYBOYX2:
The IBHOF have Pryor listed as the greatest 140lb fighter of all time

They also have Eddie Perkins and Barry McGuigan inducted as ATG's..
Says it all really.. I agree that Pryor shouldn't be there.. The LWW division was as weak as piss back then, which was why the ageing Alexis Arguello stepped up to the plate, only to be cheated out of it..
Cheats never prosper though, which is why Arguello (who was attempting his 4th title in as many weights) still managed to retire him (retina damage)
Had Pryor been half as good as he was rated, he'd have mixed it in one of the strongest WW divisions in boxing history..
Around that time you had the likes of SRL, Duran, Hearns, Curry, Starling, Breland, Blocker, Honeyghan, Brown, McCrory and Colin Jones who would have all probably beaten Pryor..
I'd take Tszyu, Mayweather, JMM, Pac, Castillo and a prime Ricky Hatton to beat him to..
Aaron Pryor Vs Gary Hinton had all the answers for me.. Any prime fighter who could box and move, had Pryor's number..

Just as a side note, I am aware that SRR apparantly ducked him, which can only be good news for Pryor..

P.WILL
01-11-2010, 11:00 PM
Klitschkos
Hamed
Corrales
Ricky Hatton
Kosta Tsyzu

sonnyboyx2
01-12-2010, 03:21 AM
QUOTE: SONNYBOYX2:
The IBHOF have Pryor listed as the greatest 140lb fighter of all time

They also have Eddie Perkins and Barry McGuigan inducted as ATG's..
Says it all really.. I agree that Pryor shouldn't be there.. The LWW division was as weak as piss back then, which was why the ageing Alexis Arguello stepped up to the plate, only to be cheated out of it..
Cheats never prosper though, which is why Arguello (who was attempting his 4th title in as many weights) still managed to retire him (retina damage)
Had Pryor been half as good as he was rated, he'd have mixed it in one of the strongest WW divisions in boxing history..
Around that time you had the likes of SRL, Duran, Hearns, Curry, Starling, Breland, Blocker, Honeyghan, Brown, McCrory and Colin Jones who would have all probably beaten Pryor..
I'd take Tszyu, Mayweather, JMM, Pac, Castillo and a prime Ricky Hatton to beat him to..
Aaron Pryor Vs Gary Hinton had all the answers for me.. Any prime fighter who could box and move, had Pryor's number..

Just as a side note, I am aware that SRR apparantly ducked him, which can only be good news for Pryor..

i agree that Barry McGuigan should not have been inducted into the IBHOF on what he achieved during his boxing career, yet he has been actively involved in the sport in many ways since he retired, he is an excellent analyst for boxing on tv, he also writes for many newspapers and dont forget he brought warring factions together in Northern Ireland during his fighting career..

Eddie Perkins... "Pure Class" and rightly inducted, Perkins was a `True World Champion` fighting in over 20 different countries... Perkins lost 3 of his first 5 bouts then after several wins he lost by stoppage to Al Urbina.. it would be the only time in his 99 fight career that he would be stopped...Perkins was good enough to go 1-1-1 in World Title fights with the great Italian Dulio Loi holding him to a draw in Italy (unheard of)...Perkins won his 2nd World Title after Loi retired... in all Perkins fought 7 world champions and countless contenders, Eddie Perkins was a `class act` who fought anyone, anywhere, anytime.. He truely deserves to be in the IBHOF.... Eddie is now wheelchair bound and in a very bad state, i have quite a few of his great fights and a good friend of mine who lives in the USA met Eddie & his family at the IBHOF induction, Eddie`s family said he had never seen most of the fight-film footage of himself and would dearly love to view it, i sent it over and it was passed on to Eddie & his family.

mickey malone
01-12-2010, 04:27 AM
i agree that Barry McGuigan should not have been inducted into the IBHOF on what he achieved during his boxing career, yet he has been actively involved in the sport in many ways since he retired, he is an excellent analyst for boxing on tv, he also writes for many newspapers and dont forget he brought warring factions together in Northern Ireland during his fighting career..

Eddie Perkins... "Pure Class" and rightly inducted, Perkins was a `True World Champion` fighting in over 20 different countries... Perkins lost 3 of his first 5 bouts then after several wins he lost by stoppage to Al Urbina.. it would be the only time in his 99 fight career that he would be stopped...Perkins was good enough to go 1-1-1 in World Title fights with the great Italian Dulio Loi holding him to a draw in Italy (unheard of)...Perkins won his 2nd World Title after Loi retired... in all Perkins fought 7 world champions and countless contenders, Eddie Perkins was a `class act` who fought anyone, anywhere, anytime.. He truely deserves to be in the IBHOF.... Eddie is now wheelchair bound and in a very bad state, i have quite a few of his great fights and a good friend of mine who lives in the USA met Eddie & his family at the IBHOF induction, Eddie`s family said he had never seen most of the fight-film footage of himself and would dearly love to view it, i sent it over and it was passed on to Eddie & his family.
Nice touch on Perkins there..

Although a very good fighter (amateur and pro) Eddie doesn't quite cut it for me..
The 1-1-1 affair was a prime Perkins against a very old Loi.. Their 3rd bout was held in 1962, the year Loi retired, whereas Perkins fought until 1975.. Although Perkins was a game warrior, he did lose 20 out of less than 100, where as Loi dropped only 3 in well over a 100.. Loi's a Hoffa, and that to me, is the difference.. It could be argued that Perkins faced stiffer opposition than the majority of Loi's European opponents, but he got beaten on the way up, during his prime and on the way down.. With all due respect, he was inconsistent and a bit too feather fisted to warrant a place..

rocky_balboa23
01-12-2010, 04:29 AM
Modern fighters that accumilate mulitple titles but carefully pick opponents. In the day there was one title and to get a shot you had to face the top guys. You couldn't look at the ratings and see four guys in the top five the champion hasn't fought.

I know who u r refering to..hehe :boxing:

tanibanana
01-12-2010, 05:22 AM
Klitschkos
Hamed
Corrales
Ricky Hatton
Kosta Tsyzu
i think the other three definitely does'nt make the cut,
but these two (Ricky Hatton & Kosta Tsyzu) indeed may
have an argument.. but my vote is not if #100 is the cut.

GJC
01-12-2010, 08:19 AM
Pretty interesting one there...........
Suprised that no one picked me up on it yet, maybe I have something?