View Full Version : Who Are The Ten Greatest Fighters Never To Hold A World Title?


Southpaw16BF
01-10-2010, 12:54 PM
In Order......1 To 10. Who in your opinion are the 10 greatest fighters never to hold a world title in the history of boxing?

Joey Giardello
01-10-2010, 01:02 PM
1Sam Langford
2Charley Burley
3Harry Wills
4Jimmy Bivins
5Peter Jackson
6Joe Jeanett
7Lloyd Marshal
8Herol Graham
9Jerry Quarry
10Rubin Carter

My nearly list fighters
Sam Mcvey
Bennie Brisco
Yaqui Lopez

GJC
01-10-2010, 01:13 PM
Some good fighters there gentlemen but no list of 10 fighters who never won world titles is complete without Packey McFarland.

HaglerSteelChin
01-10-2010, 01:15 PM
A good portion of them would be the black fighters who due to laws were not allowed to fight white fighters. Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette, Peter Jackson to name a few. Holman Williams definitely one of the best MW not to hold a title and more recently Juan Domingo Roldan who gave both Hagler and Hearns tough fights


There are also many fighters who i thought were great but were champs for very brief moments as Juan La Porte who fought during a very rich FW era with guys like Nelson, Sanchez, and Danny Red Lopez. Luis Manuel Rodriguez was Champ also very briefly guys like Griffith and Benvenuti prevented him from having a greater legacy but he did have over 100 wins.

HaglerSteelChin
01-10-2010, 01:16 PM
1Sam Langford
2Charley Burley
3Harry Wills
4Jimmy Bivins
5Peter Jackson
6Joe Jeanett
7Sam Mcvey
8Lloyd Marshal
9Herol Graham
10Jerry Quarry

Good list, Harry Willis is definitely up there.

Joey Giardello
01-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Good list, Harry Willis is definitely up there.

thanks dude, yeah wills was avoided by jack dempsey and his manager

Joey Giardello
01-10-2010, 01:24 PM
Also les darcy has got to be up there

Joey Giardello
01-10-2010, 01:28 PM
Alot of people forget just how good jerry quarry was back in the day he beat the big punching unbeaten at the time mac foster, stopped a prime earnie shavers in a round, also give the big punching ron lyle his first defeat and had wins over buster mathis and floyd patterson. He was just around at the wrong time and couldnt beat all time greats ali and fraizer

Obama
01-10-2010, 02:19 PM
Some marquee names not being brought up here...

Young Stribling
Lew Tendler
Jack Blackburn
Joe Choynski

All those guys fought and won at the world class level in at least 3 full weight divisions (before the junior divisions). And what Young Stibling did makes Pac's move up in weight look trivial.

I'm not making a list tho...too hard.

GJC
01-10-2010, 02:30 PM
Some marquee names not being brought up here...

Young Stribling
Lew Tendler
Jack Blackburn
Joe Choynski

All those guys fought and won at the world class level in at least 3 full weight divisions (before the junior divisions). And what Young Stibling did makes Pac's move up in weight look trivial.

I'm not making a list tho...too hard.
More good names there, Young Stribling for sure deserves to be top 10.
To my mind, Sam Langford, Charley Burley, Jimmy Bivins, Young Stribling and Packy McFarland are nailed on top ten then its take your pick.

I will obviously put forward Joe Baksi after the initial rush :)

Obama
01-10-2010, 02:34 PM
More good names there, Young Stribling for sure deserves to be top 10.
To my mind, Sam Langford, Charley Burley, Jimmy Bivins, Young Stribling and Packy McFarland are nailed on top ten then its take your pick.

I will obviously put forward Joe Baksi after the initial rush :)

Let us not forget that Blackburn beat Langford. Something I wrote on Blackburn a while back:

Jack Blackburn was one of the greatest Lightweights to never win a world title. Strike that, Jack Blackburn was one of the greatest Lightweights period. It's not like he ever got a shot at the World Title either. Then again, the Champion was Joe Gans after all... Anyways, for all his in ring accomplishments, he actually did not make the hall of fame for his own boxing career. Rather, he made the hall of fame for the career of the great Joe Louis, whom he trained. Nonetheless, this cannot be considered a blemish on his resume considering men such as Lloyd Marshall also evade the hall of fame (no longer true, thankfully). Sometimes justice simply isn't served. Such was the case with many great Philadelphia fighters, of which Blackburn is certainly considered one of the very best.

Blackburn, while born out of Versailles, KY, spent his boxing career fighting out of Philadelphia, PA. He amassed an impressive official record of 37 ***8211; 8 ***8211; 7, with six of the eight losses coming after getting out of prison (more on that later). The two official losses he sustained in his youth came at the hands of the top ten caliber all time greats Joe Gans and Sam Langford. Prior to the Langford loss, Blackburn unofficially defeated and drew with Langford, who was considerably larger than Blackburn.

Also unofficially, Blackburn had an additional record of 65 ***8211; 17 ***8211; 11 (newspaper decisions). Twelve of the seventeen losses, once again, came after Blackburn left prison (after doing a five and a half year stint no less). Of the men who unofficially beat Blackburn in his youth include Philadelphia Jack O'Brien (natural Middleweight, top twenty all time great material), George Gunther (lost to Blackburn six times, two of them official), Joe Gans (possibly the greatest Lightweight of all time), George Cole (one of the forgotten Philadelphian elites who beat top fighters from Welterweight to Heavyweight), and Dave Holly (yet another great Philadelphia fighter who beat Langford and Joe Walcott in addition to Blackburn).

Of all the people who beat a non-faded Blackburn, unofficially and officially, only Gans beat him more than once. And only Gans and O'Brien managed to do it without losing. As mentioned previously, Blackburn beat Gunther six times. He also beat Holly three times and Cole twice. Other notable victories he achieved include Jimmy Gardner (Welterweight), Charley Hitte (Welterweight), Cy Flynn (Lightweight), Jack Williams (Middleweight), Herman Miller (Lightweight), Fred Bradley (Heavyweight), Jim Barry (Middleweight, who would go on to beat top Heavyweights), Harry Lewis (hall of fame Welterweight), Mike Donovan (Middleweight), Terry Martin (Welterweight), Tony Caponi (Middleweight), Tommy Howell (Welterweight), and Harry Mansfield (Lightweight).

Mansfield was Blackburn's last fight before prison. On January 12th, 1909, Blackburn's went on a shooting spree in Philadelphia (something not uncommon in the Philadelphia of today). During this fit of rage he killed three people, including his own wife. He was convicted of manslaughter and sentenced to ten to fifteen years in prison. He managed to get out early on good behavior by giving boxing lessons to the warden and his children. But by the time he did get out of prison he was no longer the same fighter. But considering the man had already beaten credible opposition from Lightweight to Heavyweight, two hall of famers included (Langford & Lewis), it's pretty safe to say his legacy was intact before hand. A legacy he built in only 6 years...

GJC
01-10-2010, 02:50 PM
Nice post Obama and you put the case for Blackburn very well. From my point of view I didn't include Blackburn in my "nailed on" top 5 simply because as you say the Gans factor. He is one of those unfortunate fighters who just happened to be around at the same time as a stone cold ATG and I can always see Gans in front of him, similar to Tendling and Benny Leonard. Obviously the jail sentence did him few favours.
Like I say to my mind definate top ten material but I favour the others because I believe with certainty that they would have won a world title had they have been given their shot whereas some I believe were unlucky with the era they fought in.

Obama
01-10-2010, 03:10 PM
Nice post Obama and you put the case for Blackburn very well. From my point of view I didn't include Blackburn in my "nailed on" top 5 simply because as you say the Gans factor. He is one of those unfortunate fighters who just happened to be around at the same time as a stone cold ATG and I can always see Gans in front of him, similar to Tendling and Benny Leonard. Obviously the jail sentence did him few favours.
Like I say to my mind definate top ten material but I favour the others because I believe with certainty that they would have won a world title had they have been given their shot whereas some I believe were unlucky with the era they fought in.

Your list included Jimmy Bivins. You must mean title shot at Light Heavyweight, because he most certainly was not a sure thing to beat Louis.

Still, can't really justify rating Bivins over Blackburn. Bivins was bigger than all the best people he beat.

GJC
01-10-2010, 04:43 PM
Your list included Jimmy Bivins. You must mean title shot at Light Heavyweight, because he most certainly was not a sure thing to beat Louis.

Still, can't really justify rating Bivins over Blackburn. Bivins was bigger than all the best people he beat.
Just a matter that I am certain that Bivvins would have beaten Lesnevich in that golden year he had, not so sure that I could favour Blackburn over Gans. I'm probably looking at this in a different way, certainly not disrespecting how great Blackburn was. If you grasp my thinking that is, I will admit to taking an unusual slant on things at times, you'll have to put it down to age and humour me :)

Obama
01-10-2010, 05:05 PM
Just a matter that I am certain that Bivvins would have beaten Lesnevich in that golden year he had, not so sure that I could favour Blackburn over Gans. I'm probably looking at this in a different way, certainly not disrespecting how great Blackburn was. If you grasp my thinking that is, I will admit to taking an unusual slant on things at times, you'll have to put it down to age and humour me :)

You seem to be placing more weight on ability to win a title rather than ability period. I see no relevance in doing that. Gans is arguably the greatest Lightweight ever. Lesnevich couldn't make a respectable top 40 LHW list. He's not in the HOF and it's doubtful he ever will be.

Beating Gans would be faaaaaaar more impressive.

Anyways, Blackburn beat people that beat Gans.

HaglerSteelChin
01-10-2010, 08:24 PM
You guys know your boxing to remember Young Stribling- he died in the hospital where his wife was as i read his story when i went through names of guys in the Old Timers IBHOF. I thought Packey Mcfarland was among the best who didnt hold a world title. But i am not sure if he is top 10?

Two other names that i think weren't mentioned were Kid Norfolk and Pedro Montanez. Norfolk had wins over Greb, Flowers, and Jamaica kid. Pedro montanez is easily the best PR fighter not to hold a title. He beat guys like Frankie Click, Wesley Ramey, and Jack "Kid" Berg, but always felt short due to his losses to Henry Armstrong and Lou Ambers.

ILLuminato
01-10-2010, 11:48 PM
Howard Davis Jr. because he's from my hometown. He was a total BEAST as an amateur but coudln't make it to the world title level.

GJC
01-11-2010, 10:53 AM
Howard Davis Jr. because he's from my hometown. He was a total BEAST as an amateur but coudln't make it to the world title level.
Problem with putting Howard Davis in was he got well beat by Jim Watt and I would struggle to put Watt above a good solid fighter as opposed to a great champion. Obama's man Blackburn would have slaughtered Watt.

Southpaw16BF
01-11-2010, 10:59 AM
No mention of Holman Williams, Eddie Booker, Jack Chase or Willie Joyce yet.

All great fighters who beat fellow ATG fighters, and all were worthy of title belts!

GJC
01-11-2010, 11:01 AM
You guys know your boxing to remember Young Stribling- he died in the hospital where his wife was as i read his story when i went through names of guys in the Old Timers IBHOF. I thought Packey Mcfarland was among the best who didnt hold a world title. But i am not sure if he is top 10?

Two other names that i think weren't mentioned were Kid Norfolk and Pedro Montanez. Norfolk had wins over Greb, Flowers, and Jamaica kid. Pedro montanez is easily the best PR fighter not to hold a title. He beat guys like Frankie Click, Wesley Ramey, and Jack "Kid" Berg, but always felt short due to his losses to Henry Armstrong and Lou Ambers.
Kid Norfolk is a good pick for sure any man who can take an eye from Greb must have something!
Re Packy, even Battles on here admits Battling Nelson ducked him, no easy admission from him and one that does him credit.
Packy had 100 odd fights and lost one newpaper decision in his first year as pro?
Just very unlucky to be a light welter before there was such a thing!

sonnyboyx2
01-11-2010, 11:27 AM
Jerry Quarry would be No1 on my list

Southpaw16BF
01-11-2010, 11:30 AM
Jerry Quarry would be No1 on my list

Are you joking? No offence to Quarry. But Sam Langford, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Peter Jackson, and lots of others are more worthy than Quarry.

Who yes was worthy of a title, but no way is he number #1