View Full Version : The Liston vs. Clay/Ali Fights


Bigdaddy_Vh
01-09-2010, 02:01 PM
was wanting all of your HONEST opinions on what REALLY went down in these two fights? do you guys feel like Ali was just that good or do you think there was some funny business of the part of Liston?

Personally, and this is in no way a discredit to Ali, i think the Mob or someone got to Liston before this fight. I think whomever "they" were decided they were going to cash in on these two fights given the odds. Again, im not discrediting Ali in any way but I think that at point in his career, Liston should have beaten him.

GJC
01-09-2010, 02:05 PM
Not totally convinced about the shoulder injury I think if anything Liston just no mas'sed (excuse my probably inventing Spanish words!)
2nd fight still concerns me as I'm not totally convinced by the knock down, I know Walcott totally screwed it up but I can't see that punch would have put Liston down for more than a second or two.

sonnyboyx2
01-09-2010, 02:22 PM
was wanting all of your HONEST opinions on what REALLY went down in these two fights? do you guys feel like Ali was just that good or do you think there was some funny business of the part of Liston?

Personally, and this is in no way a discredit to Ali, i think the Mob or someone got to Liston before this fight. I think whomever "they" were decided they were going to cash in on these two fights given the odds. Again, im not discrediting Ali in any way but I think that at point in his career, Liston should have beaten him.

impossible to fix a world title fight of that magnitude... Cassius Clay was a 7/1 dog in the betting, Liston was virtually unbackable... The largest bet possible to place today in The UK is 250,000 at William Hill Bookmakers in London, The Largest bet possible to place anywhere in the world today is $500,000 in Las Vegas USA.. no Heavyweight champion is gonna take a dive for the feeble money on offer that he could win, champions like Ali, Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis, Holmes have all made over $100,000,000 from their career earnings..Sonny Liston was making very good money from being Heavyweight Champion... in no way did he take a dive.

Sonny Liston was beaten by a better fighter the first time he fought Cassius Clay.. Their rematch Liston had got himself into tremendous physical shape and was ready to go to war, however Cassius Clay suffered an injury only weeks before the fight and had to go to hospital to undergo a Hernia operation, the fight was cancelled for 9 months.. Sonny Liston was devastated by the cancellation and after 6 months he lost the desire to get into the shape he had been in previously due to his advanced years... when they finally came face-to-face in the ring for their rematch, it was obvious to Liston and everyone in the press section that Cassius Clay had grown from the young guy who taunted Liston before their first fight into a fully grown man, Sonny Liston never fancied the job, just like all bullies and Liston was a bully, they have a Yellow streak down their back... Sonny took the 1st oppotunity he had to get out of the fight, he went down... IMO he nor anyone else made any illegal betting money from the fight

dagrtst
01-09-2010, 02:28 PM
I think Liston just didn't wanna continue, in the first fight. He was behind and, like GJC said, just quit.

I thought the second fight was fixed. That punch shouldn't have knocked him out.

Even if they were fixed, Ali would've most likely beaten him, anyways.

Bigdaddy_Vh
01-09-2010, 02:34 PM
impossible to fix a world title fight of that magnitude...

i liked everything about your analysis except for this portion. In this world, NOTHING is impossible...

GJC
01-09-2010, 03:04 PM
i liked everything about your analysis except for this portion. In this world, NOTHING is impossible...
No you are right in that but I think Sonny has a point in that it would have to be some betting coup for a man to give up the richest prize in sport.
Also I think there would have been enough irregular betting patterns to highlight it.
In the bad old days they often used to try and set up trilogies, i.e. he wins the 1st, you win the 2nd 3rd is for real. But even then it was known which fights had a smell to them by the betting patterns.
That said I've never been happy with the 2 fights or Liston's conduct in them

bojangles1987
01-09-2010, 04:58 PM
The first fight was clearly just Liston realizing he was not going to win and quitting. The second fight, I can't say for sure I don't know enough about the situation but it seemed like the same thing, the punch put Liston down and he realized he would be in for another long night if he got up.

Sugarj
01-09-2010, 05:57 PM
Liston was an odd character, he fought well enough first time round....won a couple of rounds too, people forget this! Most highlight reels show Clay's speedy dancing in round one, and his two great moments in rounds three and six. Liston was in shape, but was having a badish day in the office. Who knows why he quit!

I dont believe in a fixed fight the second time round, he wasn't flabby or out of shape. I honestly think he quit, I dont think the punch was very hard. No one knows what was on his mind, maybe he feared the black muslims. He was a complicated character, but he did have a rock solid chin! I dont think he was knocked out!

I'd favour Ali at this point over Liston regardless.....but by decision.

sleazyfellow
01-09-2010, 06:22 PM
Liston was an odd character, he fought well enough first time round....won a couple of rounds too, people forget this! Most highlight reels show Clay's speedy dancing in round one, and his two great moments in rounds three and six. Liston was in shape, but was having a badish day in the office. Who knows why he quit!

I dont believe in a fixed fight the second time round, he wasn't flabby or out of shape. I honestly think he quit, I dont think the punch was very hard. No one knows what was on his mind, maybe he feared the black muslims. He was a complicated character, but he did have a rock solid chin! I dont think he was knocked out!

I'd favour Ali at this point over Liston regardless.....but by decision.

The only round he won is when ali was blinded, and that was only one round, every other round he couldnt catch Clay for ****. He quit because he was spent and getting beaten up, no need to wonder why.

He took a dive in that second fight for sure, Ali didnt have the power to put him down, and Liston had showed already that he could take a good shot in his fight with Cleveland Williams. Just a payday for Liston, kinda reminded me of wallcott/marciano2, Wallcott clearly wasnt KO'ed like he was in the first fight, he just wanted an easy payday and knew he couldnt win.

T3dBundy
01-09-2010, 07:08 PM
the fight in 64 was alis best fight, there is no way this fight was fixed, i have watched it more than 100times...
liston just didnt wanna continue to fight in their second fight, there is no fix.

Sugarj
01-09-2010, 07:19 PM
Hi Sleazy,

I seem to remember the second being quite a good round for Liston, and he dominated the second half of round three. Round four was fairly even, quite quiet. I agree with you about round five being quite dominant for Liston based on Clay's eye issue, but I gather that of the six completed rounds the judges had scored rounds for Liston in other than round 5.

Seriously, watch the fight on You Tube. The lasting impression of the fight doesn't reflect what actually happened, Liston caught Clay with quite a few jabs, decent body blows and even lead left hooks. Liston didn't fight badly at all. prior to round six.

Clay would have still won though had Liston carried on, he clearly was faster and fresher.

I totally agree with you about Marciano vs Walcott 2 though!

edgarg
01-09-2010, 07:35 PM
was wanting all of your HONEST opinions on what REALLY went down in these two fights? do you guys feel like Ali was just that good or do you think there was some funny business of the part of Liston?

Personally, and this is in no way a discredit to Ali, i think the Mob or someone got to Liston before this fight. I think whomever "they" were decided they were going to cash in on these two fights given the odds. Again, im not discrediting Ali in any way but I think that at point in his career, Liston should have beaten him.
I believe you are correct, Liston was actually under control of the Mob. In his spare time he was a "leg breaker" and hatchet man. There was huge scandal when he became champion. There were Senate investigations of his proven Mob management, and some went to gaol. His managership was changed, and he had to place himself under the control of a local Catholic priest, to learn morals and how to read. He didn't train for the first fight, having been encouraged by his cronies that Clay was uaeless.

For the return, he trained hard, was in the best shape of his life, and was fancied to win. However, shortly before the fight, Clay devoped a convenient "appendicitis", and the fight was postponed. Liston never regained his condition, and it's generally believed that he lay down in the 1st rd.
o a
The count was somewhat controversial, with VERY inexperienced Jersey Joe Walcott as the ref, and when Liston went down to a seemingly soft tap on his jaw, Walcott allowed Clay to stand over Liston, yelling at him, so the count was VERY disorganised. Eventually, Liston got up, thinking he'd been down long enough to be counted out, but Clay resumed the fight, as did Lston, (although very reluctantly).

Walcott was then distracted by RING owner and publisher Nat Fleischer, the acknowledged supreme boxing expert, who, gesticulating at his wristwatch, yelled that Liston had been down more than 10 seconds, and that the fight should be OVER.

Walcott, in complete disarray, finally broke up the 2 fighters and ruled that Liston had been counted out {although, not by him, the ref}

There is more but that's enough, I think......

edgarg
01-09-2010, 07:38 PM
the fight in 64 was alis best fight, there is no way this fight was fixed, i have watched it more than 100times...
liston just didnt wanna continue to fight in their second fight, there is no fix.
How can you so confidently assert that "there was no fix", when Liston was owned, body and soul, by the Mafia gangsters?

T3dBundy
01-09-2010, 08:00 PM
How can you so confidently assert that "there was no fix", when Liston was owned, body and soul, by the Mafia gangsters?

cuz liston tried to take alis head off in their first fight, u should count how much left hooks sonny was missing ..

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 05:06 AM
impossible to fix a world title fight of that magnitude...

I don't believe it was fixed, but its definitely controversial. If the 1919 world series could have been fixed when baseball was the most popular sport in America, that fight could have been fixed. Jmo.

sonnyboyx2
01-10-2010, 05:17 AM
I don't believe it was fixed, but its definitely controversial. If the 1919 world series could have been fixed when baseball was the most popular sport in America, that fight could have been fixed. Jmo.

i dont know nothing about the 1919 world series.. but who and how would anyone profit from fixing that fight?

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 05:26 AM
i dont know nothing about the 1919 world series.. but who and how would anyone profit from fixing that fight?

I don't have an answer for that though its been speculated about since it occurred. Im just saying it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

Bigdaddy_Vh
01-10-2010, 12:47 PM
I don't have an answer for that though its been speculated about since it occurred. Im just saying it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

that was simply my point as well...

ay jab, your 'Boys finally got that win last night, eh? ;)

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 06:08 PM
that was simply my point as well...

ay jab, your 'Boys finally got that win last night, eh? ;)

Oh yeah! We're looking real strong right now. If we get by Minnesota, nothing will stop us from getting to the super bowl.

sonnyboyx2
01-11-2010, 05:04 AM
I don't have an answer for that though its been speculated about since it occurred. Im just saying it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

i agree with you.. boxing in the 50s through to the early 60s had a black cloud hanging over it due to Mob involvment..