View Full Version : Bert Sugar ''Jack Dempsey is greater than Ray Leonard, Pernell Whitaker, Archie Moore


cotto16
01-07-2010, 11:28 AM
and Ezzard Charles''

What do you think about him saying this?

Sugarj
01-07-2010, 11:45 AM
It depends how you rate 'greater'. On the plus side Dempsey helped bring more people to the sport than any of the others, made it a sport for the masses, the first million dollar gates! He transgressed the sport, made it glamorous with his Hollywood lifestyle. On the boxing side of things Dempsey was more of a feared aggressive puncher than those listed, arguably more entertaining.....despite Moore's KO percentage and Leonard's showboating!

On the negative though Dempsey's title reign was pretty weak, six or seven title fights in seven or eight years is poor. His opponents were hardly in the class of the other named fighters. Moore, Charles, Whitaker and Leonard faced more hall of famers. Also, the above four were very slick boxers who had fantastic defense and treated boxing like an art form, skills wise I wouldn't rate Dempsey in their league.......although I do think his skills are underated.

GJC
01-07-2010, 12:58 PM
It depends how you rate 'greater'. On the plus side Dempsey helped bring more people to the sport than any of the others, made it a sport for the masses, the first million dollar gates! He transgressed the sport, made it glamorous with his Hollywood lifestyle. On the boxing side of things Dempsey was more a more feared aggressive puncher than those listed, arguably more entertaining.....despite Moore's KO percentage and Leonard's showboating!

On the negative though Dempsey's title reign was pretty weak, six or seven title fights in seven or eight years is poor. His opponents were hardly in the class of the other named fighters. Moore, Charles, Whitaker and Leonard faced more hall of famers. Also, the above four were very slick boxers who had fantastic defense and treated boxing like an art form, skills wise I wouldn't rate Dempsey in their league.......although I do think his skills are underated.
Think you pretty much have it there Sugar. I think that until Ali no other fighter had transcended boxing into the mainstream like Dempsey. That has nothing to do with their abilities.
I would say that Dempsey, Ali and Tyson were probably the most famous at their time more so than even SRR and Louis.

GameGod
01-07-2010, 04:12 PM
It's not ludicrous. Dempsey was an excellent Champion. I immediately rule out Archie Moore and Ezzard Charles in my own mind, and also think he deserves a couple of spots Pound-for-Pound ahead of Pernell Whitaker. But Sugar Ray Leonard? I would call him slightly greater than Dempsey.

Sugar always overrated the olden day fighters ...

Sugarj
01-07-2010, 05:12 PM
Hi GJC, Your absolutely right! When Ali was champion he was arguably the most famous and recognisable man on the planet. Likewise Tyson! Theres nothing like a dominant charismatic heavyweight champion. Cant wait for the next!!!! Might be waiting for a while.

And Gamegod, I guess its easy to write off Archie Moore due to his losses at heavyweight to Marciano, Patterson and Ali (when past prime and above his true division). But check out his vast career record, KO percentage and resume at light heavyweight, its quite amazing. Also for the record, I'd take Moore's performance against Durelle over Dempsey's performance against Firpo. Two great triumphs over adversity though.

Ezzard Charles as well, just take a look at his fight record too. A resume to make you weep.

The Stone Roses
01-07-2010, 10:38 PM
honestly man, i can't take Bert Sugar seriously, who is this clown??? Jack Dempsey is an overrated chump, he never fought anyone of note when he was champion, i mean wtf, 7 title defenses in 8 years, get the **** outta here, he had no skill whatsoever, if you look at films of him today he looks like a complete novice....pathetic

BadBrains
01-07-2010, 10:45 PM
honestly man, i can't take Bert Sugar seriously, who is this clown??? Jack Dempsey is an overrated chump, he never fought anyone of note when he was champion, i mean wtf, 7 title defenses in 8 years, get the **** outta here, he had no skill whatsoever, if you look at films of him today he looks like a complete novice....pathetic
You should kill yourself if you don't know who Bert Sugar is.

One more round
01-07-2010, 11:17 PM
Pretty ridiculous. Sugar has some very questionable opinions.

The Stone Roses
01-08-2010, 12:10 AM
You should kill yourself if you don't know who Bert Sugar is.
HAHHAHAHA.....clearly, you don't know what sarcasm is.....i know who Bert Sugar is, a boxing journalist and so called historian

JAB5239
01-08-2010, 04:43 AM
honestly man, i can't take Bert Sugar seriously, who is this clown??? Jack Dempsey is an overrated chump, he never fought anyone of note when he was champion, i mean wtf, 7 title defenses in 8 years, get the **** outta here, he had no skill whatsoever, if you look at films of him today he looks like a complete novice....pathetic

Dempsey had fantastic skills. Unfortunately like so many other fighters from such early era's they don't transfer to the film of the time. To me Vitaly K's skills are hardly any more impressive than Primo Carnera, and thats with todays film. TheGreatA has a video in flicker speed of Vit and he looks down right awful. I firmly believe that if Dempsey was recorded with today video technology he'd look like a superstar.

One more round
01-08-2010, 04:52 AM
Dempsey had fantastic skills. Unfortunately like so many other fighters from such early era's they don't transfer to the film of the time. To me Vitaly K's skills are hardly any more impressive than Primo Carnera, and thats with todays film. TheGreatA has a video in flicker speed of Vit and he looks down right awful. I firmly believe that if Dempsey was recorded with today video technology he'd look like a superstar.

Could you please direct me to where that was posted? thanks dude

GameGod
01-08-2010, 05:02 AM
Dempsey had fantastic skills. Unfortunately like so many other fighters from such early era's they don't transfer to the film of the time. To me Vitaly K's skills are hardly any more impressive than Primo Carnera, and thats with todays film. TheGreatA has a video in flicker speed of Vit and he looks down right awful. I firmly believe that if Dempsey was recorded with today video technology he'd look like a superstar.

Comparable to even Tyson (who based himself on him), yes. But I don't see Dempsey above Ray Leonard P4P.

JAB5239
01-08-2010, 05:02 AM
Could you please direct me to where that was posted? thanks dude

Its been posted here before. If TheGreatA see's this I have no doubt he'll post it again. If not, you could PM him and ask him to. He's one of the best posters on this site and very accomodating.

JAB5239
01-08-2010, 05:08 AM
Comparable to even Tyson (who based himself on him), yes. But I don't see Dempsey above Ray Leonard P4P.

I don't see Dempsey above Leonard p4p either, but many make their judgments on inferior film and totally disregard what boxing scribes and experts of the day had to say about him. In my opinion there is much more that goes into judging a fighter than crappy film. Thats just my opinion for what its worth, but Im always willing to argue it. That not pointed to you directly, but in general.

One more round
01-08-2010, 05:47 AM
Its been posted here before. If TheGreatA see's this I have no doubt he'll post it again. If not, you could PM him and ask him to. He's one of the best posters on this site and very accomodating.

No worries. I'm RightCross94/RealDeal '86/ Kostya Tszyu etc btw. Got banned again.

GameGod
01-08-2010, 06:47 AM
I don't see Dempsey above Leonard p4p either, but many make their judgments on inferior film and totally disregard what boxing scribes and experts of the day had to say about him. In my opinion there is much more that goes into judging a fighter than crappy film. Thats just my opinion for what its worth, but Im always willing to argue it. That not pointed to you directly, but in general.

I agree with that. Dempsey was a great fighter without question and more than a match for any modern day Heavyweight. What people need to do is to make decisions based on the effectiveness and dominance of such old fighters, not make decisions based on their grace (as seen from 1920s film). Dempsey was almost as dominant as it gets, and an extremely hard puncher.

dagrtst
01-08-2010, 08:27 AM
Everyone has their own opinion and I see them being close on an all-time great list. But I've seen Sugar's list and he has Dempsey way ahead of the others.

He places Whitaker and Leonard too far, to the lengths where it makes wonder if he really knows how to rank fighters.

GJC
01-08-2010, 05:18 PM
I agree with that. Dempsey was a great fighter without question and more than a match for any modern day Heavyweight. What people need to do is to make decisions based on the effectiveness and dominance of such old fighters, not make decisions based on their grace (as seen from 1920s film). Dempsey was almost as dominant as it gets, and an extremely hard puncher.
And a huge personality to non boxing or even sports fans. P4P I would not put him ahead of Harry Greb or Sam Langford but I'm sure if I was to stop 100 people in the street and ask them to tell me which one they knew, a huge majority would say Dempsey.

oaklandstephen
01-09-2010, 04:37 AM
honestly man, i can't take Bert Sugar seriously, who is this clown??? Jack Dempsey is an overrated chump, he never fought anyone of note when he was champion, i mean wtf, 7 title defenses in 8 years, get the **** outta here, he had no skill whatsoever, if you look at films of him today he looks like a complete novice

agreed .................

GameGod
01-09-2010, 05:28 AM
Here's Sugar's list:

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Willie Pep
4 Joe Louis
5 Harry Greb
6 Benny Leonard
7 Muhammad Ali
8 Roberto Duran
9 Jack Dempsey
10 Jack Johnson
11 Mickey Walker
12 Tony Canzoneri
13 Gene Tunney
14 Rocky Marciano
15 Joe Gans
16 Sam Langford
17 Julio Cesar Chavez
18 Jimmy Wilde
19 Stanley Ketchal
20 Barney Ross
21 Jimmy McLarnin
22 Archie Moore
23 Marcel Cerdan
24 Ezzard Charles
25 Sugar Ray Leonard
26 Joe Walcott
27 Jake LaMotta
28 Eder Jofre
29 Emile Griffith
30 Terry McGovern
31 George Foreman
32 Johnny Dundee
33 Jose Napoles
34 Pasqual Perez
35 Billy Conn
36 Ruben Olivares
37 Joe Frazier
38 Tommy Loughran
39 Sandy Saddler
40 Kid McCoy
41 Abe Attell
42 Evander Holyfield
43 George Dixon
44 Maxie Rosenbloom
45 Larry Holmes
46 Ted Kid Lewis
47 Marvelous Marvin Hagler
48 Pernell Whitaker
49 Carlos Zarate
50 Thomas Hearns
51 Battling Nelson
52 Beau Jack
53 Ricardo Lopez
54 John L. Sullivan
55 Carlos Monzon
56 Alexis Arguello
57 Carmen Basilio
58 Pete Herman
59 Charley Burley
60 Ike Williams
61 Kid Gavilan
62 Jack Britton
63 Dick Tiger
64 Pancho Villa
65 Panama Al Brown
66 Bob Fitzsimmons
67 Phila. Jack O'Brien
68 Tiger Flowers
69 James J. Corbett
70 Tony Zale
71 Tommy Ryan
72 Georges Carpantier
73 Sonny Liston
74 Kid McCoy
75 Bob Foster
76 Freddie Welsh
77 Joe Jeanette
78 Jim Driscoll
79 Jersey Joe Walcott
80 Peter Jackson
81 Ad Wolgast
82 Non Pareil Jack Dempsey
83 Manuel Ortiz
84 James J. Jeffries
85 Salvador Sanchez
86 Jimmy Barry
87 Carlos Ortiz
88 Roy Jones Jr.
89 Wilfredo Gomez
90 Aaron Pryor
91 Bernard Hopkins
92 Mike Gibbons
93 Jack Delaney
94 Johnny Kilbane
95 Willie Ritchie
96 Wilfred Benitez
97 Packy MacFarland
98 Rocky Graziano
99 Lew Jenkins
100 Mike Tyson

Those rankings don't agree at all with mine (I have Dempsey as the Number 6 Heavyweight alone, much less P4P), but at least Sugar's list supports his beliefs. I would have Dempsey 3rd out of the chosen 5.