View Full Version : Anyone else agree SRR is overrated?


ILLuminato
01-05-2010, 05:00 PM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

Bigdaddy_Vh
01-05-2010, 05:22 PM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

if, by overrated, you mean the best fighter to ever walk the planet, then yeah he was overrated ;)

Slimey Limey
01-05-2010, 05:28 PM
Absolutely, and not many people would admit to this because you have extreme nuthuggers ready to castrate you for it. His legacy is built upon stats. He padded his record much the same way Chavez did to get that many wins, and very few in his era were actually greats. Furthermore his numerous titles and "moving up in weight" are also overrated. The guy was always bigger than his opponents so not much credit given there.
He will always be the myth in boxing. Idiotic lads will defend his mythical #1 status without even seeing more than just youtube highlights.

PAC-BOY
01-05-2010, 05:30 PM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

You do what he did and come back and let me know if hes overrated!

Southpaw Stinger
01-05-2010, 05:39 PM
Not at all. A thread like this shows that he's still underrated.

Rocker
01-05-2010, 05:53 PM
Educate yourself before posting something like this.

He beat more ATG's and HOF's than anyone else in the history of boxing. He was the welterweight champion for 4.5 years and a 5 time middleweight champion.

His sole loss in his prime was to the ATG middleweight Jake LaMotta and he was outweighed by 15 pounds. He avenged that loss 4 times.

SRL was great, but not on the level of Robinson.

billionaire
01-05-2010, 07:16 PM
lol this topic is partly true....if you listen to the people on here he never threw any bad punches, never did anything wrong.......like when people say robinsons the best because of 200 something wins that stupid as hell because some guys have even more than that....so dont listen to them and make up your own opinion, hes top 3 imo.....

leonard gotta be considered top 10 for his resume alone, even tho he has the least fights outta everybody.....he never established himself at middleweight like robinson tho....

billionaire
01-05-2010, 07:17 PM
Educate yourself before posting something like this.

He beat more ATG's and HOF's than anyone else in the history of boxing. He was the welterweight champion for 4.5 years and a 5 time middleweight champion.

His sole loss in his prime was to the ATG middleweight Jake LaMotta and he was outweighed by 15 pounds. He avenged that loss 4 times.

SRL was great, but not on the level of Robinson.

some of those guys are just considered great because of there era tho.....graziano and fullmer are not great in terms of skill or resume they were just tough guys in a time where boxing was more famous....

Rocker
01-05-2010, 07:31 PM
some of those guys are just considered great because of there era tho.....graziano and fullmer are not great in terms of skill or resume they were just tough guys in a time where boxing was more famous....

Graziano is one of the greatest punchers of all-time. Fullmer beat four world champions, at a time when there was only one world title.

Bigdaddy_Vh
01-05-2010, 07:35 PM
Graziano is one of the greatest punchers of all-time. Fullmer beat four world champions, at a time when there was only one world title.

pay attention people...

any craic lad?
01-05-2010, 07:37 PM
hearns hagler duran they aint to bad to have on your list

ILLuminato
01-05-2010, 08:01 PM
The fighters are much, much better now and back in the 80's and 90's. Marvin Hagler would've beat SRR. So would Thomas Hearns.

Ben_London
01-05-2010, 08:10 PM
I love Leonard but Robinson was not overrated. Beat some great fighters on more than one occasion, had KO power in both hands, could KO people going backwards, blistering handspeed and combination throwing.

Equinox
01-05-2010, 08:16 PM
The fighters are much, much better now and back in the 80's and 90's. Marvin Hagler would've beat SRR. So would Thomas Hearns.how would the fighters from the past do in the present had they been born in these more pampered/easier times?

mathed
01-05-2010, 08:26 PM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

Hmm, I can't agree with that. Fighting 3 times a month is no joke, how many boxers nowadays do that? The guy was a beast and only started to appear mortal after 140 or so fights.

1963-12-09 160½ Armand Vanucci 157½ 18-5-2

Palais des Sports, Paris, Paris, France W PTS 10 10

1963-11-29 158 Andre Davier 159 20-10-1

Palais des Sports, Grenoble, Isθre, France W PTS 10 10

1963-11-16 160Ύ Emile Saerens 160Ό 13-2-2

Palais des Sports, Brussels, Bruxelles-Capitale, Belgium W KO 8 10

1963-11-09 162 Fabio Bettini 157 18-7-3

Palais des Sports, Lyon, Rhτne, France D PTS 10 10

The Stone Roses
01-05-2010, 11:02 PM
TS is a troll and a novice.....padded resume??? he fought the most HOF's than anybody in history??? does that sound padded to you?? idiot

them_apples
01-06-2010, 12:31 AM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

I have Ali over Robinson.

Quality beats out longevity in my books, Longevity is good to, but quality above all.

ILLuminato
01-06-2010, 12:59 AM
I have Ali over Robinson.

Quality beats out longevity in my books, Longevity is good to, but quality above all.

I agree. Ali is over Robinson. Could Robinson if he was a bigger guy deal with a slick brawler like Frazier or a killer like Foreman? And win? I don't know.

Marcov
01-06-2010, 12:59 AM
Anyone else agree SRR is overrated?

Not me. Underrated in my book.

TBear
01-06-2010, 01:38 AM
I'm am somewhat suprised. The last thing I ever would expect to see is a thread about Sugar Ray being overated.

Kiid Dynamite
01-06-2010, 02:59 AM
Robinson overated? Please inform me

JAB5239
01-06-2010, 04:13 AM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

You're an idiot.

Absolutely, and not many people would admit to this because you have extreme nuthuggers ready to castrate you for it. His legacy is built upon stats. He padded his record much the same way Chavez did to get that many wins, and very few in his era were actually greats. Furthermore his numerous titles and "moving up in weight" are also overrated. The guy was always bigger than his opponents so not much credit given there.
He will always be the myth in boxing. Idiotic lads will defend his mythical #1 status without even seeing more than just youtube highlights.

So are you.

I'll debate either of you clowns and embarrass the hell out of you. Bank on it.

1SILVA
01-06-2010, 08:19 AM
You're an idiot.


So are you.

I'll debate either of you clowns and embarrass the hell out of you. Bank on it.

If Robinson is overrated, than every other fighter that ever stepped in the squared circle is as well. That is like saying Oscar Robertson was an overrated basketball player, Jesse Owens an overrated track star, Johnny Unitas an overrated football player, and Willie mays an overrated baseball player. He was the best fighter of his era, period!!!!!!!!

Slimey Limey
01-06-2010, 08:42 AM
I'm am somewhat suprised. The last thing I ever would expect to see is a thread about Sugar Ray being overated.

It goes against everything that you were ever spoonfed about boxing innit mate?

You're an idiot.


So are you.

I'll debate either of you clowns and embarrass the hell out of you. Bank on it.

TOUGH GUY huh? Yeah you're an online tough guy innit?

TheHolyCross
01-06-2010, 09:19 AM
i once mentioned jorge fernando castro in a thread where we were talking about old fighters(just because of castro's record, which is about 170 odd fights)
and i got a responses like: castro was'nt skilled, he was just tough

and it left me think, wtf man? that's exactly all most of those old fighters were, tough

take jake lamotta for instance, the guy was just not that good at all, but he was as tough as nails

TysonJones3
01-06-2010, 09:35 AM
Yes, I believe he is. I own 22 of his fights and highlights from him as a welterweight. He's a great fighter no doubt, with fast hands in combination and a great chin. His movement was very flawless as well. That said, I've seen better. There are fighters in the game now that hold all the same qualities he does, most of them choose to box though rather than slug. He's overrated because people call him the greatest of all time and 75 percent of these people havent even seen him fight, they just instantly buy into the hype.

I'll say this, You put SRR in there with a 160 pound prime roy jones, and jones is faster, hits harder, and quicker on his feet. Jones gives SRR all he could handle at middleweight. Just a reference for people that think SRR could hurt jones, James toney's been hurting cruiserweights and even knocked out evander holyfield, Jones took a ton of clean hard shots from toney at 168.

Larry Merchant
01-06-2010, 09:44 AM
somewhat do to era

TheGreatA
01-06-2010, 11:31 AM
i once mentioned jorge fernando castro in a thread where we were talking about old fighters(just because of castro's record, which is about 170 odd fights)
and i got a responses like: castro was'nt skilled, he was just tough

and it left me think, wtf man? that's exactly all most of those old fighters were, tough

take jake lamotta for instance, the guy was just not that good at all, but he was as tough as nails

I think most people who view the fights of LaMotta and Castro can easily see the difference. LaMotta could box very well while Castro had no boxing skill whatsoever. Also LaMotta easily fought and beat the better opposition.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o055XCqPVNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o055XCqPVNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lp49ew3Uadg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lp49ew3Uadg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Yes, I believe he is. I own 22 of his fights and highlights from him as a welterweight. He's a great fighter no doubt, with fast hands in combination and a great chin. His movement was very flawless as well. That said, I've seen better. There are fighters in the game now that hold all the same qualities he does, most of them choose to box though rather than slug. He's overrated because people call him the greatest of all time and 75 percent of these people havent even seen him fight, they just instantly buy into the hype.

I'll say this, You put SRR in there with a 160 pound prime roy jones, and jones is faster, hits harder, and quicker on his feet. Jones gives SRR all he could handle at middleweight. Just a reference for people that think SRR could hurt jones, James toney's been hurting cruiserweights and even knocked out evander holyfield, Jones took a ton of clean hard shots from toney at 168.

Then again you must also acknowledge the fact that Roy Jones at 39 is being knocked around by the likes of Danny Green while Ray Robinson at 39 was reigning as the middleweight champion of the world. Roy at his peak was a sight to behold but there's something to be said about the longevity of a Ray Robinson.

And Jones by no means took a "ton" of shots by James Toney. Iran Barkley took a ton of shots by Toney. Jones got caught with a couple, I could count the big punches Toney landed in that fight on one hand. That's a compliment to Jones.

TheHolyCross
01-06-2010, 02:14 PM
I think most people who view the fights of LaMotta and Castro can easily see the difference. LaMotta could box very well while Castro had no boxing skill whatsoever. Also LaMotta easily fought and beat the better opposition.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o055XCqPVNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o055XCqPVNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lp49ew3Uadg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lp49ew3Uadg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

instead of posting a **** fight of castro why dont you try another like him against john david jackson? i read one of your posts before, it was suppossedly a good win for the 6'1 bernard hopkins but not for the former junior-welterweight jorge fernando castro?

and i never said castro was better lamotta, but you'd swear robinson, lomatta and any of those old fighters never fought a bum, i swear, even tho most of them didn't even look to be in an elite fighters shape, weird huh?

Then again you must also acknowledge the fact that Roy Jones at 39 is being knocked around by the likes of Danny Green while Ray Robinson at 39 was reigning as the middleweight champion of the world. Roy at his peak was a sight to behold but there's something to be said about the longevity of a Ray Robinson.


you might've just answered somethin about the opposition robinson faced past-prime
dont even start with joey maxim, i know it's coming my way, he was ****, robinson(if not past prime) and any other real fighter could beat him, patterson would've beaten him if he was not green, and patterson wasn't even that good

TheGreatA
01-06-2010, 02:51 PM
instead of posting a **** fight of castro why dont you try another like him against john david jackson? i read one of your posts before, it was suppossedly a good win for the 6'1 bernard hopkins but not for the former junior-welterweight jorge fernando castro?

I don't rate Hopkins's win over JD Jackson. Castro was taking a brutal beating from Jackson and was nearly stopped until KO'ing Jackson with one punch. He was tough, about the toughest fighter I ever saw, but not a good boxer at all.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5gNJsdRDQYw&hl=en_US&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5gNJsdRDQYw&hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

This hardly proves anything about his boxing skills.

and i never said castro was better lamotta, but you'd swear robinson, lomatta and any of those old fighters never fought a bum, i swear, even tho most of them didn't even look to be in an elite fighters shape, weird huh?

They fought a bunch of bums, every fighter has, but they also fought and beat numerous contenders, champions and hall of famers, more so than most of today's fighters.

you might've just answered somethin about the opposition robinson faced past-prime
dont even start with joey maxim, i know it's coming my way, he was ****, robinson(if not past prime) and any other real fighter could beat him, patterson would've beaten him if he was not green, and patterson wasn't even that good

If it's coming to the point where you have to call the likes of Joey Maxim "****" then there's no use in even arguing. I don't rate Maxim as one of the greatest but he was hardly a bum and the fight was at light heavyweight anyway. Robinson started out as a lightweight.

Patterson wasn't good? Care to point out why? You're just throwing out big statements about how LaMotta, Maxim and Patterson weren't any good without actually saying why.

And Roy Jones can't even compete against decent opposition these days. Danny Green couldn't get past European level fighters like Markus Beyer yet he looked like a destroyer against Jones. Robinson was still world class in his late 30's while Jones is far from it.

Calilloyd
01-06-2010, 03:55 PM
I think most people who view the fights of LaMotta and Castro can easily see the difference. LaMotta could box very well while Castro had no boxing skill whatsoever. Also LaMotta easily fought and beat the better opposition.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/o055XCqPVNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/o055XCqPVNM&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lp49ew3Uadg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/Lp49ew3Uadg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>



Then again you must also acknowledge the fact that Roy Jones at 39 is being knocked around by the likes of Danny Green while Ray Robinson at 39 was reigning as the middleweight champion of the world. Roy at his peak was a sight to behold but there's something to be said about the longevity of a Ray Robinson.

And Jones by no means took a "ton" of shots by James Toney. Iran Barkley took a ton of shots by Toney. Jones got caught with a couple, I could count the big punches Toney landed in that fight on one hand. That's a compliment to Jones.

I can't take a person seriously when they compare Jake Lamotta to Jorge Castro. That just leaves me speechless and shows how little some people know about boxing history. They shouldn't even post in here with that kind of stupidity. And you're right. Jones didn't take many shots from Toney at all. The rest is just not worth wasting time.

GJC
01-06-2010, 04:29 PM
It goes against everything that you were ever spoonfed about boxing innit mate?



TOUGH GUY huh? Yeah you're an online tough guy innit?

Well you are the one who insults people constantly, I doubt whether you swagger around like that in the real world do you?
OK always easy to criticise so your chance to be constructive where do you rank SRR all time? 5th, 10th, 50th? And give us your top 5?

JAB5239
01-07-2010, 12:15 AM
TOUGH GUY huh? Yeah you're an online tough guy innit?

Well you are the one who insults people constantly, I doubt whether you swagger around like that in the real world do you?
OK always easy to criticise so your chance to be constructive where do you rank SRR all time? 5th, 10th, 50th? And give us your top 5?

I offer up a spirited debate, he comes back with "TOUGH GUY huh?". Classic example of Slimey not willing to back up his words out of fear of more embarrassment. Sad, ain't it G?

DeepSleep
01-07-2010, 12:50 AM
I thought I had seen it all on here from Duran, Louis, Hagler, etc, etc being called overrated but this takes the cake. Of all the fighters to call overrated how could you even make an argument against SRR?

JAB5239
01-07-2010, 01:02 AM
I thought I had seen it all on here from Duran, Louis, Hagler, etc, etc being called overrated but this takes the cake. Of all the fighters to call overrated how could you even make an argument against SRR?

Its a joke, isn't it? The man fought 18 different world champions in a period where there was only 1 title in each division. Just to make a comparison (no knock on anybody) has either Pac or Floyd even fought 18 titlist in their careers? Robinson was amazing.

dde91
01-07-2010, 01:04 AM
WOW. Some people have just gone retarded lately. I think that Pac-May deal not going through made some people snap or something.

donkim
01-07-2010, 01:07 AM
What disturbs me is the lack of great black fighters on Ray Robinson's resume.The likes of Cocoa Kid,Holman Williams,Lloyd Marshall,Eddie Brooker,Archie Moore,Jack Chase,and Charley Burley were all fighting one another and on many occasions did so several times,and yet the p4p king never fought any of them.




I offer up a spirited debate, he comes back with "TOUGH GUY huh?". Classic example of Slimey not willing to back up his words out of fear of more embarrassment. Sad, ain't it G?


No you don't.You offer up a month's worth of infractions looking to get posters who you disagree with suspended.

JAB5239
01-07-2010, 01:17 AM
What disturbs me is the lack of great black fighters on Ray Robinson's resume.The likes of Cocoa Kid,Holman Williams,Lloyd Marshall,Eddie Brooker,Archie Moore,Jack Chase,and Charley Burley were all fighting one another and on many occasions did so several times,and yet the p4p king never fought any of them.

You need to understand the era to understand why those fights weren't made. There simply wasn't any money in it for him. Im not excusing it, only pointing out a fact. He did beat both Gavilan and Armstrong though, as well as Aaron Wade..


No you don't.You offer up a month's worth of infractions looking to get posters who you disagree with suspended.

No, I offer infractions and red k for trolls looking to start trouble. Im willing to have a reasonable debate with anyone if they can bring facts and logical opinion to the table. Would you like to try me on this subject?

Obama
01-07-2010, 02:11 AM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, ***8220;What Lightweight career?***8221;. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW ***8211; 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW ***8211; 1940, LW Champ ***8211; 1941, #2 LW ***8211; 1943, #8 WW ***8211; 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW ***8211; 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ ***8211; 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ ***8211; 1940, #3 WW ***8211; 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ ***8211; 1939, #6 WW ***8211; 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW ***8211; 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW ***8211; 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW ***8211; 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW ***8211; 1942, #1 MW ***8211; 1943, #2 MW ***8211; 1944, #3 MW ***8211; 1945, #1 MW ***8211; 1946)
(#5 MW ***8211; 1947, #3 MW ***8211; 1948, MW Champ ***8211; 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW ***8211; 1940, #8 WW ***8211; 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW ***8211; 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW ***8211; 1941, #3 WW ***8211; 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW ***8211; 1943, #4 WW ***8211; 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ ***8211; 1938 & 1939, #1 WW ***8211; 1940, #2 WW ***8211; 1942, #1 WW ***8211; 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW ***8211; 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW ***8211; 1946, #2 WW ***8211; 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW ***8211; 1947, #2 WW ***8211; 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW ***8211; 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW ***8211; 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW ***8211; 1945, #7 WW ***8211; 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW ***8211; 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW ***8211; 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ ***8211; 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW ***8211; 1948, #5 MW ***8211; 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW ***8211; 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW ***8211; 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW ***8211; 1949, #8 MW ***8211; 1950, #9 MW ***8211; 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW ***8211; 1950, #8 WW ***8211; 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW ***8211; 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW ***8211; 1952, MW Champ ***8211; 1953 & 1954, #1 MW ***8211; 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW ***8211; 1952, #5 MW ***8211; 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW ***8211; 1953, #3 MW ***8211; 1954, #6 MW ***8211; 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW ***8211; 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW ***8211; 1951 & 1952, MW Champ ***8211; 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW ***8211; 1946, MW Champ ***8211; 1947, #10 MW ***8211; 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW ***8211; 1953, #2 MW ***8211; 1954, #5 MW ***8211; 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW ***8211; 1956, MW Champ ***8211; 1957, #2 MW ***8211; 1957 & 1958, #1 MW ***8211; 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ ***8211; 1955 & 1956, MW Champ ***8211; 1957, #1 MW ***8211; 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW ***8211; 1961, #6 MW ***8211; 1962, JMW Champ ***8211; 1963, #9 MW ***8211; 1968, #2 MW ***8211; 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW ***8211; 1961, #3 WW ***8211; 1962, #4 WW ***8211; 1963, JMW Champ ***8211; 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

JAB5239
01-07-2010, 02:21 AM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)


Obama, if this is an original post Im nominating it (although very early still) as post of the year. :fing02: If its not an original post it still contains to many facts to refute. Nice job!

Obama
01-07-2010, 02:32 AM
Obama, if this is an original post Im nominating it (although very early still) as post of the year. :fing02: If its not an original post it still contains to many facts to refute. Nice job!

I wrote that up in 2009. Just never here...

JAB5239
01-07-2010, 02:37 AM
I wrote that up in 2009. Just never here...

Great, great post!! Wish I could green K you, but it won't allow it so soon.

Calilloyd
01-07-2010, 02:44 AM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)


Wow. Great post!

GameGod
01-07-2010, 06:24 AM
Absolutely, and not many people would admit to this because you have extreme nuthuggers ready to castrate you for it. His legacy is built upon stats. He padded his record much the same way Chavez did to get that many wins, and very few in his era were actually greats. Furthermore his numerous titles and "moving up in weight" are also overrated. The guy was always bigger than his opponents so not much credit given there.
He will always be the myth in boxing. Idiotic lads will defend his mythical #1 status without even seeing more than just youtube highlights.

Absolutely. Henry Armstrong and Kid Gavilan were fodder, average fighters. LaMotta was disastrous, Zivic, Graziano and Turpin are second-rate, and Fullmer and Bell were simply abysmal. Am I right?

:no1:

BennyST
01-07-2010, 07:23 AM
Yes, I believe he is. I own 22 of his fights and highlights from him as a welterweight. He's a great fighter no doubt, with fast hands in combination and a great chin. His movement was very flawless as well. That said, I've seen better. There are fighters in the game now that hold all the same qualities he does, most of them choose to box though rather than slug. He's overrated because people call him the greatest of all time and 75 percent of these people havent even seen him fight, they just instantly buy into the hype.

I'll say this, You put SRR in there with a 160 pound prime roy jones, and jones is faster, hits harder, and quicker on his feet. Jones gives SRR all he could handle at middleweight. Just a reference for people that think SRR could hurt jones, James toney's been hurting cruiserweights and even knocked out evander holyfield, Jones took a ton of clean hard shots from toney at 168.

There might be people in the game with all the qualities that he held, but there is one quality that very few fighters in history have ever held and will ever hold His will to win and keep winning against all odds.

Being the GOAT is not just a matter of skill. It is as much a matter of skill and will. The difference between most guys now and Robinson is not only his will but the sheer amount of great fighters he beat too.

You're right though. Robinson probably wouldn't beat Jones. In fact, I definitely don't think he would. So what? Jones was a huge MW that could only stay there for a small amount of time because he was too big for it. He was a natural LHW and in Robinson's day of weigh ins, he would never have been a MW. He would have been a LHW straight away because there was no SMW. Strip that, he may have been a MW for a very brief period but would have had to leave well before winning a title.

Not only that but Robinson was a WW and it's a different story if you put both of them in a P4P sense. Jones may still have won. I wouldn't discount him, but you also have to factor in today's plyometric exercises,new strength and conditioning stuff for speed and strength etc etc which these guys would have done and so champions from whatever era they were in would be as dominant in today's as there were then. That's how P4P works. If everything were the same, who would win? Weight, technology, how dominant, height, reach, speed, class of opposition etc etc etc.

Consider this: If he fought today, he would have been able to shrink down to 130 easily. He started fighting at 135 and stayed there for about two years beating many great LW's. With day before weigh ins and today's dehydration and rehydration techniques, he could have been a 130 pounder without any trouble at all. Possibly even less with the emphasis placed on getting down so low today too. He would have been able to win some kind of title at 130 without any problems. He could have won another at 135, another at 140, 147, 154, 160, and, dare I say it, 168, and probably 175 too. After all, he only lost his LHW title shot because it was a fifteen rounder in stinking, sweltering non air-conditioned heat. Very different from today.

There was one title in his day and he beat great champions from the LW division to nearly winning the LHW title. One title in each division, meaning you had to fight the one and only guy at the top. Today, he could fought the guy that would have simply given him any title, ie. the worst title holder out of the four/five/six or whatever in each division. Being able to get down to 130 easily, hypothetically he could have won eight titles pretty easy all things considered. He nearly did it fighting the absolute best each division had to offer with same day weigh ins and without the latest in dehydration and rehydration techniques.

Most people don't think about that stuff though do they? You have to take everything into consideration from each era, both old and new. The amount of titles available today is laughable and someone as good as Robinson, able to win as much as he was in his own day would lap it up today. He had the perfect body to walk through a lot of divisions and his skill and will to win would have made titles in each of those divisions nearly a definite.

I don't know, but, what I do know is that Robinson beat more great fighters over a longer period of time than probably any other fighter ever. That is why he is considered the GOAT.

TheHolyCross
01-07-2010, 08:04 AM
I don't rate Hopkins's win over JD Jackson. Castro was taking a brutal beating from Jackson and was nearly stopped until KO'ing Jackson with one punch. He was tough, about the toughest fighter I ever saw, but not a good boxer at all.

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5gNJsdRDQYw&hl=en_US&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5gNJsdRDQYw&hl=en_US&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="425" height="344" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true"></embed></object>

This hardly proves anything about his boxing skills.



They fought a bunch of bums, every fighter has, but they also fought and beat numerous contenders, champions and hall of famers, more so than most of today's fighters.



If it's coming to the point where you have to call the likes of Joey Maxim "****" then there's no use in even arguing. I don't rate Maxim as one of the greatest but he was hardly a bum and the fight was at light heavyweight anyway. Robinson started out as a lightweight.

Patterson wasn't good? Care to point out why? You're just throwing out big statements about how LaMotta, Maxim and Patterson weren't any good without actually saying why.

And Roy Jones can't even compete against decent opposition these days. Danny Green couldn't get past European level fighters like Markus Beyer yet he looked like a destroyer against Jones. Robinson was still world class in his late 30's while Jones is far from it.

i never said that patterson was ****, i said if he was'nt green he would've beaten maxim and also that he wasn't THAT good as some people would suggest

and to be fair to jones, he has a **** chin and robinson fought only "boxers", none of those guys came rushin in like danny green and glenn johnson

so i dont think it's the skills that got robinson by, because i really do believe jones is much more skilled, it was robinsons toughness and mediocre(green is below mediocre) boxers pretending to be elite-boxers

and benny, the polymetrics exercises haven't changed that much to make a differrence.
As for nutrition, would it be difficult for them to just pick up a bannana, apples etc eat some lean meat and fish(which was probabley better than todays without all the chemicals)?

Roger Yomama
01-07-2010, 08:27 AM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

Funniest thing I have read on here in ages!!!

Obama
01-07-2010, 09:35 AM
i never said that patterson was ****, i said if he was'nt green he would've beaten maxim and also that he wasn't THAT good as some people would suggest


Had nothing to do with it, Patterson peaked early. The problem was he just got robbed.


and to be fair to jones, he has a **** chin and robinson fought only "boxers", none of those guys came rushin in like danny green and glenn johnson


:rofl::rofl:

Gene Fullmer is the most dangerous in-rusher Robinson fought, and he fought a prime Fullmer nearly a decade past his own prime. Gene Fullmer is considered one of the all time great Middleweights. Danny Green and Glen Johnson will never be ATG anything.

Ziggy Stardust
01-07-2010, 10:02 AM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, ***8220;What Lightweight career?***8221;. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW ***8211; 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW ***8211; 1940, LW Champ ***8211; 1941, #2 LW ***8211; 1943, #8 WW ***8211; 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW ***8211; 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ ***8211; 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ ***8211; 1940, #3 WW ***8211; 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ ***8211; 1939, #6 WW ***8211; 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW ***8211; 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW ***8211; 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW ***8211; 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW ***8211; 1942, #1 MW ***8211; 1943, #2 MW ***8211; 1944, #3 MW ***8211; 1945, #1 MW ***8211; 1946)
(#5 MW ***8211; 1947, #3 MW ***8211; 1948, MW Champ ***8211; 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW ***8211; 1940, #8 WW ***8211; 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW ***8211; 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW ***8211; 1941, #3 WW ***8211; 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW ***8211; 1943, #4 WW ***8211; 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ ***8211; 1938 & 1939, #1 WW ***8211; 1940, #2 WW ***8211; 1942, #1 WW ***8211; 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW ***8211; 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW ***8211; 1946, #2 WW ***8211; 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW ***8211; 1947, #2 WW ***8211; 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW ***8211; 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW ***8211; 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW ***8211; 1945, #7 WW ***8211; 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW ***8211; 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW ***8211; 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ ***8211; 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW ***8211; 1948, #5 MW ***8211; 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW ***8211; 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW ***8211; 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW ***8211; 1949, #8 MW ***8211; 1950, #9 MW ***8211; 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW ***8211; 1950, #8 WW ***8211; 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW ***8211; 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW ***8211; 1952, MW Champ ***8211; 1953 & 1954, #1 MW ***8211; 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW ***8211; 1952, #5 MW ***8211; 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW ***8211; 1953, #3 MW ***8211; 1954, #6 MW ***8211; 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW ***8211; 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW ***8211; 1951 & 1952, MW Champ ***8211; 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW ***8211; 1946, MW Champ ***8211; 1947, #10 MW ***8211; 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW ***8211; 1953, #2 MW ***8211; 1954, #5 MW ***8211; 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW ***8211; 1956, MW Champ ***8211; 1957, #2 MW ***8211; 1957 & 1958, #1 MW ***8211; 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ ***8211; 1955 & 1956, MW Champ ***8211; 1957, #1 MW ***8211; 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW ***8211; 1961, #6 MW ***8211; 1962, JMW Champ ***8211; 1963, #9 MW ***8211; 1968, #2 MW ***8211; 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW ***8211; 1961, #3 WW ***8211; 1962, #4 WW ***8211; 1963, JMW Champ ***8211; 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)


As surprising as it may be to some to see me write this, that's a great bit of work there and SHOULD end this "discussion" once and for all. Sadly though, it probably won't: Trolls never let facts get in the way of their agenda.

Green K given.

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
01-07-2010, 10:03 AM
There might be people in the game with all the qualities that he held, but there is one quality that very few fighters in history have ever held and will ever hold His will to win and keep winning against all odds.

Being the GOAT is not just a matter of skill. It is as much a matter of skill and will. The difference between most guys now and Robinson is not only his will but the sheer amount of great fighters he beat too.

You're right though. Robinson probably wouldn't beat Jones. In fact, I definitely don't think he would. So what? Jones was a huge MW that could only stay there for a small amount of time because he was too big for it. He was a natural LHW and in Robinson's day of weigh ins, he would never have been a MW. He would have been a LHW straight away because there was no SMW. Strip that, he may have been a MW for a very brief period but would have had to leave well before winning a title.

Not only that but Robinson was a WW and it's a different story if you put both of them in a P4P sense. Jones may still have won. I wouldn't discount him, but you also have to factor in today's plyometric exercises,new strength and conditioning stuff for speed and strength etc etc which these guys would have done and so champions from whatever era they were in would be as dominant in today's as there were then. That's how P4P works. If everything were the same, who would win? Weight, technology, how dominant, height, reach, speed, class of opposition etc etc etc.

Consider this: If he fought today, he would have been able to shrink down to 130 easily. He started fighting at 135 and stayed there for about two years beating many great LW's. With day before weigh ins and today's dehydration and rehydration techniques, he could have been a 130 pounder without any trouble at all. Possibly even less with the emphasis placed on getting down so low today too. He would have been able to win some kind of title at 130 without any problems. He could have won another at 135, another at 140, 147, 154, 160, and, dare I say it, 168, and probably 175 too. After all, he only lost his LHW title shot because it was a fifteen rounder in stinking, sweltering non air-conditioned heat. Very different from today.

There was one title in his day and he beat great champions from the LW division to nearly winning the LHW title. One title in each division, meaning you had to fight the one and only guy at the top. Today, he could fought the guy that would have simply given him any title, ie. the worst title holder out of the four/five/six or whatever in each division. Being able to get down to 130 easily, hypothetically he could have won eight titles pretty easy all things considered. He nearly did it fighting the absolute best each division had to offer with same day weigh ins and without the latest in dehydration and rehydration techniques.

Most people don't think about that stuff though do they? You have to take everything into consideration from each era, both old and new. The amount of titles available today is laughable and someone as good as Robinson, able to win as much as he was in his own day would lap it up today. He had the perfect body to walk through a lot of divisions and his skill and will to win would have made titles in each of those divisions nearly a definite.

I don't know, but, what I do know is that Robinson beat more great fighters over a longer period of time than probably any other fighter ever. That is why he is considered the GOAT.

Excellent!

Amazinger
01-07-2010, 10:08 AM
if, by overrated, you mean the best fighter to ever walk the planet, then yeah he was overrated ;)



Good answer!!!

Amazinger
01-07-2010, 10:10 AM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.


Who do you think should take his place.....Surely not Leonard I hope.

Let's hope your opinion matter in the near future once you duplicated SRR's feat.

Slimey Limey
01-07-2010, 10:38 AM
I offer up a spirited debate, he comes back with "TOUGH GUY huh?". Classic example of Slimey not willing to back up his words out of fear of more embarrassment. Sad, ain't it G?

You offered a spirited debate? Is that what you call it?

You're an idiot.


So are you.

I'll debate either of you clowns and embarrass the hell out of you. Bank on it.

Your lies are too easy to expose. Somebody coming at me with "Yo man you're an idiot and I would beeez destroying you in any debate!" is obviously trying to be an internet tough guy.

And as far as your 'infractions' go, two can play that game you crying child. You and Poetta offer more flaming than debating so it could be easy to get you banned as well.

Ziggy Stardust
01-07-2010, 10:42 AM
And as far as your 'infractions' go, two can play that game you crying child. You and Poetta offer more flaming than debating so it could be easy to get you banned as well.

This coming from someone who's been banned how many times? Not to mention the number of times your alts have been banned :bottle:

Poet

Slimey Limey
01-07-2010, 10:50 AM
This coming from someone who's been banned how many times? Not to mention the number of times your alts have been banned :bottle:

Poet

I am altless, old man. You never brought any proof and others haven't dared to call me an alt lately.
If I get banned for going too far from time to time I await and take my ban like a man. The reason I get banned however is because of sensitive groupies like you who can't handle negative facts about your idols. It twists your brain. My advice is, leave and make your own forum if all you want to hear is positive things, mate.

1SILVA
01-07-2010, 11:01 AM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)


Once again, Obama, you outdid yourself. Excellent work

paSSion
01-07-2010, 01:30 PM
never seen his full fights, just tributes, but he looks good

donkim
01-07-2010, 02:43 PM
Let's hope your opinion matter in the near future once you duplicated SRR's feat.


What a stupid response.


You need to understand the era to understand why those fights weren't made. There simply wasn't any money in it for him. Im not excusing it, only pointing out a fact. He did beat both Gavilan and Armstrong though, as well as Aaron Wade..




So you admit that he avoided them then?

Avoiding certain fighters and being able to do so because they weren't white.

TheGreatA
01-07-2010, 02:55 PM
Avoiding certain fighters and being able to do so because they weren't white.

The only one you could legit accuse him of avoiding is Charley Burley, the rest were middleweights/light heavyweights by the time Robinson got on the scene.

Sugar Ray actually fought the most underrated of the underrated black welterweights, who often got the better of the so-called "Murderer's Row", such as California Jackie Wilson and George Costner who were also top rated in Robinson's division. To this date they're underrated and forgotten despite their achievements.

Robinson also fought and beat middleweight contender Georgie Abrams whom one could call a "white" member of the Murderer's Row. No one wanted any part of him, so he fought the likes of Cocoa Kid (beating him by a split decision) and Charley Burley (drawing with him).

JAB5239
01-07-2010, 03:18 PM
So you admit that he avoided them then?

Avoiding certain fighters and being able to do so because they weren't white.

I didn't say that, did I? As much as I would have liked to see some of those fights have been made, there was nothing in it for him. Its exactly the reason Charley Burley was never bitter towards Robinson and even said he would have done the same thing had he been in Ray's shoes.

CCobra
01-07-2010, 03:41 PM
Not really surprising that the SRR haters seem to have overlooked Obama's post. :rolleyes:

JAB5239
01-07-2010, 03:45 PM
Not surprising that the SRR haters seem to have overlooked Obama's post. :rolleyes:

No ****, huh? If Slimey and company want to make a believer out of me refute Obama's post. Right now that is the gold standard.

CCobra
01-07-2010, 03:52 PM
No ****, huh? If Slimey and company want to make a believer out of me refute Obama's post. Right now that is the gold standard.

Which they cannot do. I've been reading some pretty ridiculous stuff about Robinson recently. One guy on another forum said that Robinson would be a B-level contender if he was fighting today. :rofl:

Slimey Limey
01-07-2010, 06:39 PM
Refute his post? Basicely you want me to claim Gay Robinson was actually a bum and not an ATG?
What you nuthugging fools seem to fail to realise is that my main problem is that Gay is rated #1, I never said he wasn't an ATG. And most of all, that Gay is rated #1 BLINDLY by the majority of people is what makes Gay overrated.

So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion

That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)


(I had to cut a part out of this terrible post because it was too long to post)
See this is what I already explained earlier. It is all mostly based on stats. These same nuthuggers will tell you that today's fighters with their unbeaten perfect records mean nothing. Mostly based on stats, and if you look at the quality of opposition you can find other ATG's who were greater than GAY Robinson.

GJC
01-07-2010, 07:01 PM
Refute his post? Basicely you want me to claim Gay Robinson was actually a bum and not an ATG?
What you nuthugging fools seem to fail to realise is that my main problem is that Gay is rated #1, I never said he wasn't an ATG. And most of all, that Gay is rated #1 BLINDLY by the majority of people is what makes Gay overrated.



(I had to cut a part out of this terrible post because it was too long to post)
See this is what I already explained earlier. It is all mostly based on stats. These same nuthuggers will tell you that today's fighters with their unbeaten perfect records mean nothing. Mostly based on stats, and if you look at the quality of opposition you can find other ATG's who were greater than GAY Robinson.
ok i'll ask again and give you the chance to be constructive for a change, where do you rank SRR all time? 5th, 10th, 50th?
And give us your top 5?
I await your answer with baited breath, we both know you will not answer the question though.
Going by previous form I'm expecting something along the lines of "I wouldn't give you the satisfaction......"

donkim
01-07-2010, 07:06 PM
In regards to dunce's post,I suggest that he find a hobby in future.I find it difficult to give him credit considering he copy and pasted most of this crap from other sites.


Dunce relies heavily on what the internet boxing historians say and he has admitted as much in the past.



We excuse Robinson for avoiding all these elite black fighters because they may have been a little bigger than him.Robinson's record indicates that he had no trouble fighting middleweights.Many of these elite blacks were alot smaller than Jake Lamotta was.

The_Demon
01-07-2010, 07:21 PM
compared too who?

in terms of skills and accomplishments,he is definitly the greatest,and that will never change

dagrtst
01-07-2010, 08:27 PM
Are his accomplishments? No. I believe he beat more hall of famers and world champions than anyone else in the history of boxing.

Are his skills? Somewhat. Some fans tend to think that, because he's cited as the greatest fighters of all-time, he would've beaten anyone in his weight class(es).

Sure, he would have a great chance against all of them but that doesn't mean he was invincible. Take for example Roy Jones. I think Jones at middleweight could've beaten Robinson at middleweight.

In the end, though, you're not only ranked by your skills but your accomplishments, as well. With that said, I think Robinson is the greatest fighter of all-time.

BennyST
01-07-2010, 08:55 PM
Refute his post? Basicely you want me to claim Gay Robinson was actually a bum and not an ATG?
What you nuthugging fools seem to fail to realise is that my main problem is that Gay is rated #1, I never said he wasn't an ATG. And most of all, that Gay is rated #1 BLINDLY by the majority of people is what makes Gay overrated.



(I had to cut a part out of this terrible post because it was too long to post)
See this is what I already explained earlier. It is all mostly based on stats. These same nuthuggers will tell you that today's fighters with their unbeaten perfect records mean nothing. Mostly based on stats, and if you look at the quality of opposition you can find other ATG's who were greater than GAY Robinson.

Like who? I'm not trying to be a prick but I'm actually very interested in who you would have above Robinson based on opposition and who they beat?

Give us a list or something man. I've seen you say there are guys better than Robinson based on who they beat and how many 'greats' they beat. Why not help us see your point of view by listing them and telling us why, and their opponents which make them better? I'd love to see it.

mike19727
01-07-2010, 09:57 PM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)


This is by far the single best post I've ever seen on this site. Anyone calling Robinson overated should do their homework so they don't look stupid.

tanibanana
01-07-2010, 10:10 PM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, ***8220;What Lightweight career?***8221;. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW ***8211; 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW ***8211; 1940, LW Champ ***8211; 1941, #2 LW ***8211; 1943, #8 WW ***8211; 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW ***8211; 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ ***8211; 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ ***8211; 1940, #3 WW ***8211; 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ ***8211; 1939, #6 WW ***8211; 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW ***8211; 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW ***8211; 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW ***8211; 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW ***8211; 1942, #1 MW ***8211; 1943, #2 MW ***8211; 1944, #3 MW ***8211; 1945, #1 MW ***8211; 1946)
(#5 MW ***8211; 1947, #3 MW ***8211; 1948, MW Champ ***8211; 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW ***8211; 1940, #8 WW ***8211; 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW ***8211; 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW ***8211; 1941, #3 WW ***8211; 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW ***8211; 1943, #4 WW ***8211; 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ ***8211; 1938 & 1939, #1 WW ***8211; 1940, #2 WW ***8211; 1942, #1 WW ***8211; 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW ***8211; 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW ***8211; 1946, #2 WW ***8211; 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW ***8211; 1947, #2 WW ***8211; 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW ***8211; 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW ***8211; 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW ***8211; 1945, #7 WW ***8211; 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW ***8211; 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW ***8211; 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ ***8211; 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW ***8211; 1948, #5 MW ***8211; 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW ***8211; 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW ***8211; 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW ***8211; 1949, #8 MW ***8211; 1950, #9 MW ***8211; 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW ***8211; 1950, #8 WW ***8211; 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW ***8211; 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW ***8211; 1952, MW Champ ***8211; 1953 & 1954, #1 MW ***8211; 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW ***8211; 1952, #5 MW ***8211; 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW ***8211; 1953, #3 MW ***8211; 1954, #6 MW ***8211; 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW ***8211; 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW ***8211; 1951 & 1952, MW Champ ***8211; 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW ***8211; 1946, MW Champ ***8211; 1947, #10 MW ***8211; 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW ***8211; 1953, #2 MW ***8211; 1954, #5 MW ***8211; 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW ***8211; 1956, MW Champ ***8211; 1957, #2 MW ***8211; 1957 & 1958, #1 MW ***8211; 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ ***8211; 1955 & 1956, MW Champ ***8211; 1957, #1 MW ***8211; 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW ***8211; 1961, #6 MW ***8211; 1962, JMW Champ ***8211; 1963, #9 MW ***8211; 1968, #2 MW ***8211; 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW ***8211; 1961, #3 WW ***8211; 1962, #4 WW ***8211; 1963, JMW Champ ***8211; 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)

this post makes me subscribe to the topic..
great post..

as for SRR being overrated?
the question alone makes him underrated.

GameGod
01-08-2010, 05:12 AM
Refute his post? Basicely you want me to claim Gay Robinson was actually a bum and not an ATG?
What you nuthugging fools seem to fail to realise is that my main problem is that Gay is rated #1, I never said he wasn't an ATG. And most of all, that Gay is rated #1 BLINDLY by the majority of people is what makes Gay overrated.



(I had to cut a part out of this terrible post because it was too long to post)
See this is what I already explained earlier. It is all mostly based on stats. These same nuthuggers will tell you that today's fighters with their unbeaten perfect records mean nothing. Mostly based on stats, and if you look at the quality of opposition you can find other ATG's who were greater than GAY Robinson.

Please, just get out of here. :lol1: The fighters in bold are rated as all-time greats. No one in history faced the same or greater quality of opposition and came out as well as Sugar Ray Robinson. This has been analyzed many times, and the same conclusion has been arrived at. Why is he rated as the #1 Welterweight of all-time? Because, short of Sugar Ray Leonard, he beat every other Welterweight on the Top 10 list conclusively and multiple times. Can you name another boxer who faced a higher quality opposition? I doubt it.

JAB5239
01-08-2010, 05:19 AM
Please, just get out of here. :lol1: The fighters in bold are rated as all-time greats. No one in history faced the same or greater quality of opposition and came out as well as Sugar Ray Robinson. This has been analyzed many times, and the same conclusion has been arrived at. Why is he rated as the #1 Welterweight of all-time? Because, short of Sugar Ray Leonard, he beat every other Welterweight on the Top 10 list conclusively and multiple times. Can you name another boxer who faced a higher quality opposition? I doubt it.

This is the problem GG, he wants to detract from Robinson for what he didn't do. He refuses to give credit for what he DID do and in comparison to other greats. Its a flawed logic that can't be taken seriously.

One more round
01-08-2010, 05:28 AM
Refute his post? Basicely you want me to claim Gay Robinson was actually a bum and not an ATG?
What you nuthugging fools seem to fail to realise is that my main problem is that Gay is rated #1, I never said he wasn't an ATG. And most of all, that Gay is rated #1 BLINDLY by the majority of people is what makes Gay overrated.



(I had to cut a part out of this terrible post because it was too long to post)
See this is what I already explained earlier. It is all mostly based on stats. These same nuthuggers will tell you that today's fighters with their unbeaten perfect records mean nothing. Mostly based on stats, and if you look at the quality of opposition you can find other ATG's who were greater than GAY Robinson.

And the ridiculous amount of names that appear on Ray's resume!!! Did you read the post!!!

Obama
01-08-2010, 06:10 AM
In regards to dunce's post,I suggest that he find a hobby in future.I find it difficult to give him credit considering he copy and pasted most of this crap from other sites.


Dunce relies heavily on what the internet boxing historians say and he has admitted as much in the past.



We excuse Robinson for avoiding all these elite black fighters because they may have been a little bigger than him.Robinson's record indicates that he had no trouble fighting middleweights.Many of these elite blacks were alot smaller than Jake Lamotta was.

You're a sad little boy who fabricates the truth to suit your perceptions of people. There is much anger in you, and it has nothing to do with anyone in the history section.

Feel free not to give me credit for my post, I know I wrote it. When I don't write something, I quote it / link to it. And that's the bottom line.

bklynboy
01-08-2010, 11:25 AM
You're a sad little boy who fabricates the truth to suit your perceptions of people. There is much anger in you, and it has nothing to do with anyone in the history section.

Feel free not to give me credit for my post, I know I wrote it. When I don't write something, I quote it / link to it. And that's the bottom line.

It was a great post Obama. Thx.

Refering to the OP and Slimey Limey, I think there is nothing wrong with thinking that Sugar Ray Robinson is not the greatest of all time PROVIDED you come up with an argument that explains otherwise. Who would you consider to be a possible alternative as the GOAT?

SlimeyLimey seems to be reflexive contrarian -- "Everybody thinks SRR is the greatest -- well I don't." Fine. Well, who should we consider as alternatives?

GJC
01-08-2010, 05:09 PM
It was a great post Obama. Thx.

Refering to the OP and Slimey Limey, I think there is nothing wrong with thinking that Sugar Ray Robinson is not the greatest of all time PROVIDED you come up with an argument that explains otherwise. Who would you consider to be a possible alternative as the GOAT?

SlimeyLimey seems to be reflexive contrarian -- "Everybody thinks SRR is the greatest -- well I don't." Fine. Well, who should we consider as alternatives?
It's never going to happen, Slimey will never put himself up like that and will content himself to take potshots.
Great post from Obama full of fact and opinion and available to someone to argue with, but Slimey just says its a terrible post. So then refute it or at least some of it?
Or you could say maybe Greb is a better fighter than Robinson and post why. But that would involve making a contribution and putting yourself out there.

Slimey Limey
01-08-2010, 05:24 PM
There are a couple of cases that are too sensitive for the type of people that you see in this thread. With bumbeater and Gay Robinson I usually do not bother wasting my time. No matter what "explanation" I would give you lads, there is something in your brain that triggers an immense refusal to be objective and an emotional response of lashing out with anger and refusal. Cause of the moment you became a boxing fan, you were spoonfed these things about these fighters and to this day you refuse to accept otherwise, because if you see someone disagreeing with those ideals, it goes against everything you were ever taught about Boxing. It just stuck with your characters. For me personally, my lists change all the time. And nothing is more obvious to me than Muhammed Ali being the greatest boxer ever, and I debated this in the past. I also started out as a parrot thinking SRR is God, #1 fo sheezy mah neezy. But when I developd my own mind and opinions, I came to the conclusion that he is overrated.

GJC
01-08-2010, 05:28 PM
There are a couple of cases that are too sensitive for the type of people that you see in this thread. With bumbeater and Gay Robinson I usually do not bother wasting my time. No matter what "explanation" I would give you lads, there is something in your brain that triggers an immense refusal to be objective and an emotional response of lashing out with anger and refusal. Cause of the moment you became a boxing fan, you were spoonfed these things about these fighters and to this day you refuse to accept otherwise, because if you see someone disagreeing with those ideals, it goes against everything you were ever taught about Boxing. It just stuck with your characters. For me personally, my lists change all the time. And nothing is more obvious to me than Muhammed Ali being the greatest boxer ever, and I debated this in the past. I also started out as a parrot thinking SRR is God, #1 fo sheezy mah neezy. But when I developd my own mind and opinions, I came to the conclusion that he is overrated.

Well in the middle of the usual nonsense we have your opinion rather than you slagging off other peoples opinions.
OK deep breath, next big step why do you consider Ali a better fighter than Robinson?

Obama
01-09-2010, 01:05 AM
Somehow I think these guys deeply resent the lack of African American elites on Robinson's resume, something Ali can't be accused of. There's 1 problem with that train of thought. There weren't any real elite White fighters out there for Ali to beat up on. The best available to him, Jerry Quarry, he fought twice.

Robinson simply had a much deeper pool available to him. With a pool so deep, this allows a great fighter to pick and choose fights that make the most sense monetarily without scrutiny from normal fight fans.

That said, a flip through the Ring Ratings in the WW/MW division would suggest that Charley Burley, Holman Williams, and Cocoa Kid were the only real AA threats out there for him whom he didn't fight.

donkim
01-09-2010, 02:59 AM
I came to the conclusion that he is overrated.


And nobody can tell you that you're wrong because it's your opinion.A case for Robinson being overrated has already been demonstrated in this thread.Those who see Robinson as untouchable to any form of criticism.


I listed a few fighters(quite a few who are highly regarded)who Robinson could have and perhaps should have fought and the excuse given is that there was no demand for such fights,as if the public had a say in every single one of Robinson's opponents.


Robinson and Louis fought alot of top ranked white opponents,but when it came to fighting the elite black fighters of their day they came up short in stepping in the ring with them.


Jack Dempsey to this day is still criticized for not fighting a few elite black fighters,why are Robinson and Louis not open for the same criticism?

JAB5239
01-09-2010, 04:01 AM
There are a couple of cases that are too sensitive for the type of people that you see in this thread. With bumbeater and Gay Robinson I usually do not bother wasting my time. No matter what "explanation" I would give you lads, there is something in your brain that triggers an immense refusal to be objective and an emotional response of lashing out with anger and refusal. Cause of the moment you became a boxing fan, you were spoonfed these things about these fighters and to this day you refuse to accept otherwise, because if you see someone disagreeing with those ideals, it goes against everything you were ever taught about Boxing. It just stuck with your characters. For me personally, my lists change all the time. And nothing is more obvious to me than Muhammed Ali being the greatest boxer ever, and I debated this in the past. I also started out as a parrot thinking SRR is God, #1 fo sheezy mah neezy. But when I developd my own mind and opinions, I came to the conclusion that he is overrated.

Whats funny to me is how will consistently contradict yourself when rating fighters. You've said Larry Holmes is overrated because He had some fights that were close and YOU consider robberies. Yet you have Ali p4p the best of all time despite the Young fight, the Norton fights, Doug Jones and both fights with Sonny Liston, which many consider controversial. Does your hypocrisy have no limits?

JAB5239
01-09-2010, 04:12 AM
And nobody can tell you that you're wrong because it's your opinion.A case for Robinson being overrated has already been demonstrated in this thread.Those who see Robinson as untouchable to any form of criticism.

Opinions are fine. But don't act like they're the end all if you refuse to back them up with facts.

I listed a few fighters(quite a few who are highly regarded)who Robinson could have and perhaps should have fought and the excuse given is that there was no demand for such fights,as if the public had a say in every single one of Robinson's opponents.

Of course there are fights we would have like to have seen. But does this detract from all the great fighters he did fight?

Robinson and Louis fought alot of top ranked white opponents,but when it came to fighting the elite black fighters of their day they came up short in stepping in the ring with them.

Who were the top black fighters Louis didn't get in the ring with?

As far as Robinson goes, you simply don't understand the climate of the times. And as I already pointed out, it still can't detract from all the great fighters he did fight.

Jack Dempsey to this day is still criticized for not fighting a few elite black fighters,why are Robinson and Louis not open for the same criticism?

Dempsey is criticized for not fighting Wills, a fighter he signed to fight twice only to have the fight scrapped by the powers that be. If you want to flip the script wills refused a fight with Gene Tunney. Should that be used against Wills whole career and all the great fighters he did get in the ring with and beat? I don't think so.

Obama
01-09-2010, 06:51 AM
Only real African American threat Louis ducked was a prime Jimmy Bivins. 1 dude, big whoop. Dempsey ducked AA fighters when ALL the elite fighters happened to be AA. And I'm talking about before he won the title. Forget his fights afterwards, "product of the time" theory applies there. It also doesn't help Dempsey's case that the one respectable AA opponent he faced, John Lester Johnson, he couldn't beat and ended up with a gift draw.

Joe Louis on the other hand fought a prime Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles after he was already past it (especially in the Charles fight), defending his title twice against Walcott in the process. Only other real AA threats Louis didn't fight (Bivins aside) were Light Heavyweights who hadn't really proven themselves worthy at Heavyweight (at the time).

One more round
01-09-2010, 07:57 AM
There are a couple of cases that are too sensitive for the type of people that you see in this thread. With bumbeater and Gay Robinson I usually do not bother wasting my time. No matter what "explanation" I would give you lads, there is something in your brain that triggers an immense refusal to be objective and an emotional response of lashing out with anger and refusal. Cause of the moment you became a boxing fan, you were spoonfed these things about these fighters and to this day you refuse to accept otherwise, because if you see someone disagreeing with those ideals, it goes against everything you were ever taught about Boxing. It just stuck with your characters. For me personally, my lists change all the time. And nothing is more obvious to me than Muhammed Ali being the greatest boxer ever, and I debated this in the past. I also started out as a parrot thinking SRR is God, #1 fo sheezy mah neezy. But when I developd my own mind and opinions, I came to the conclusion that he is overrated.

Oh the hypocrisy! :bounce:

GJC
01-09-2010, 08:22 AM
Only real African American threat Louis ducked was a prime Jimmy Bivins.

I discussed this on here with GreatA a while back and we pretty much came to the conclusion that the timing wasn't right more than anything.
Bivins great peak year was 43 I believe when Louis had the title on ice.
I guess you could say he took care of Bivins in his later years when both were shot so maybe indicates the result had both been prime?

donkim
01-09-2010, 08:33 AM
Doug Jones


The less said about Ali's fight with Doug Jones the better.It's quite clear that most have never seen this fight,or won't ever make the effort to go watch it and see that Jones never won more than three rounds.


If it were not for the fact that there is complete footage of this fight available,we would have been led to believe that Jones actually deserved the decision against Ali.

GJC
01-09-2010, 09:04 AM
The less said about Ali's fight with Doug Jones the better.It's quite clear that most have never seen this fight,or won't ever make the effort to go watch it and see that Jones never won more than three rounds.


If it were not for the fact that there is complete footage of this fight available,we would have been led to believe that Jones actually deserved the decision against Ali.
Must say that I never thought Jones won this, put up a good show but thats about it.
One thing I have learnt over the years is some fights just get closer and closer with time.

Slimey Limey
01-09-2010, 09:39 AM
And nobody can tell you that you're wrong because it's your opinion.A case for Robinson being overrated has already been demonstrated in this thread.Those who see Robinson as untouchable to any form of criticism.


I listed a few fighters(quite a few who are highly regarded)who Robinson could have and perhaps should have fought and the excuse given is that there was no demand for such fights,as if the public had a say in every single one of Robinson's opponents.


Robinson and Louis fought alot of top ranked white opponents,but when it came to fighting the elite black fighters of their day they came up short in stepping in the ring with them.


Jack Dempsey to this day is still criticized for not fighting a few elite black fighters,why are Robinson and Louis not open for the same criticism?

Well put mate.

Whats funny to me is how will consistently contradict yourself when rating fighters. You've said Larry Holmes is overrated because He had some fights that were close and YOU consider robberies. Yet you have Ali p4p the best of all time despite the Young fight, the Norton fights, Doug Jones and both fights with Sonny Liston, which many consider controversial. Does your hypocrisy have no limits?

Neither Liston fights are controversial because nobody has ever brought forward evidence to back up their claims. It's all speculation. Ali ripped his heart out, that's the only controversial thing about it.

Doug Jones fight wasn't close at all. I think lads like you got a bit too excited seeing a pre mature Ali get knocked down. If he lost then anyone who gets knocked down has lost the fight.

The Young and third Norton fight were close. I scored both fights for Ali but I can see if people saw it diffirently.

That's 2 compared to 4-5 from Lar "queer style" Holmes. Any other fighter you want to discredit in this thread just to defend your boys?

jkaisen41
01-09-2010, 09:43 AM
I mean he fought a bunch of mediocre fighters 200 times is that grounds for P4P.

SRL IMO has the better resume just by beating Hearns and Hagler.

That is all.

If you fought as many fights as SRR did there is no way that everyone one of them could be great or very good. Of course he has some fighters on his resume who are mediocre.

SRL ain't fought guys like Hagler and Heanrs all the time either.

If guys like Graziano or Fullmer are only seen as tough guys without skill you still have to consider that a) toughness, determination is a part of boxing too and b) this was a time where there was only one champion... not like today where you can choose the weakest champion... so if only toughness won it them... they had to be damn tough *loooooooooooooooooool*

He ruled WW... an era were there were pretty good WW's... he was still very, very good at MW... not untouchable anymore... but still competive with them all... he also I think avenged all of his looses up until his 200 fights...

Some may make him look invincible which he wasn't... but he was pretty hard to beat even way after his prime. I think he deserves what he gets as a boxer and pretty much every other boxer would tell you the same I guess

TheGreatA
01-09-2010, 10:39 AM
I don't think Louis really ducked Bivins. Truthfully it was the war that ruined his chances, when Louis came back from the war Bivins ended up losing to Walcott which ended his prime as a contender. The two fought numerous exhibitions against each other and Louis stated that Bivins was the toughest opponent he ever fought in boxing exhibitions.

Another black fighter that Louis is said to have avoided was Elmer 'Violent' Ray whom Louis personally disliked. It is overlooked though that Louis knocked him out cold in an exhibition. Lem Franklin was real close to getting a title shot against Louis in the early 1940's but he was derailed by Bob Pastor.

Most of the men that Sugar Ray is accused of ducking were competing at higher weight classes and weren't ranked in Robinson's division. Unlike Dempsey, Robinson did fight the highly rated black fighters of the day, Kid Gavilan, George Costner, Tommy Bell and California Jackie Wilson, all among the top 3 at the time, not to mention Henry Armstrong who was still number 1 rated. Randy Turpin was also black but he seems to be dismissed by the critics as a challenger because he was British. Considering that Robinson fought all these men, it can't be said that he was drawing a "color line" of any kind.

TheGreatA
01-09-2010, 10:47 AM
Jack Dempsey was actually very close to fighting Joe Jeannette one time, but he turned the opportunity down, or to be more accurate his manager did. He was supposed to box an easy opponent and was surprised to see an older but still competent Jeannette in the ring calling him out. According to newspaper reports, Dempsey seemed ready to fight Jeannette but his manager called the fight off. It was thought to be a disgrace to boxing.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JMQaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1946,1002575

sonnyboyx2
01-09-2010, 01:44 PM
I don't think Louis really ducked Bivins. Truthfully it was the war that ruined his chances, when Louis came back from the war Bivins ended up losing to Walcott which ended his prime as a contender. The two fought numerous exhibitions against each other and Louis stated that Bivins was the toughest opponent he ever fought in boxing exhibitions.

Another black fighter that Louis is said to have avoided was Elmer 'Violent' Ray whom Louis personally disliked. It is overlooked though that Louis knocked him out cold in an exhibition. Lem Franklin was real close to getting a title shot against Louis in the early 1940's but he was derailed by Bob Pastor.

Most of the men that Sugar Ray is accused of ducking were competing at higher weight classes and weren't ranked in Robinson's division. Unlike Dempsey, Robinson did fight the highly rated black fighters of the day, Kid Gavilan, George Costner, Tommy Bell and California Jackie Wilson, all among the top 3 at the time, not to mention Henry Armstrong who was still number 1 rated. Randy Turpin was also black but he seems to be dismissed by the critics as a challenger because he was British. Considering that Robinson fought all these men, it can't be said that he was drawing a "color line" of any kind.

Robinson vs George Costner-- in the weeks leading up to their fight Costner was telling all the reporters that he was the real sugar and he would prove it in the ring with his boxing skills.. on fight night as both fighters was getting the referee`s instructions at ring centre, Robinson leaned forward and said to Costner `Touch gloves now coz this fight is only lasting one round, you aint sugar, that name is mine`.. Robinson knocked Costner cold in the opening round, Costner had to be taken from the ring on a stretcher.

Slimey Limey
01-09-2010, 02:22 PM
Robinson vs George Costner-- in the weeks leading up to their fight Costner was telling all the reporters that he was the real sugar and he would prove it in the ring with his boxing skills.. on fight night as both fighters was getting the referee`s instructions at ring centre, Robinson leaned forward and said to Costner `Touch gloves now coz this fight is only lasting one round, you aint sugar, that name is mine`.. Robinson knocked Costner cold in the opening round, Costner had to be taken from the ring on a stretcher.

He didn't enjoy beating a man up badly after he killed that poor fella, that's for sure.

billionaire
01-09-2010, 09:13 PM
Jack Dempsey was actually very close to fighting Joe Jeannette one time, but he turned the opportunity down, or to be more accurate his manager did. He was supposed to box an easy opponent and was surprised to see an older but still competent Jeannette in the ring calling him out. According to newspaper reports, Dempsey seemed ready to fight Jeannette but his manager called the fight off. It was thought to be a disgrace to boxing.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JMQaAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fEkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=1946,1002575

this is the biggest bull**** ever, if you really wanna fight someone you wouldnt let your manager hold you back....that goes for any fighter throughout history...

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 03:47 AM
]Must say that I never thought Jones won this[/B], put up a good show but thats about it.
One thing I have learnt over the years is some fights just get closer and closer with time.

Agreed. It was a very close fight, much the same way Holmes-Williams was a close fight. Im just curious about the double standard slimey has set here.

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 03:55 AM
Neither Liston fights are controversial because nobody has ever brought forward evidence to back up their claims. It's all speculation. Ali ripped his heart out, that's the only controversial thing about it.

Lmao!! Neither were controversial, huh? You really are a laugh a minute.

Doug Jones fight wasn't close at all. I think lads like you got a bit too excited seeing a pre mature Ali get knocked down. If he lost then anyone who gets knocked down has lost the fight.

Maybe you should watch the fight again.

The Young and third Norton fight were close. I scored both fights for Ali but I can see if people saw it diffirently.

That's 2 compared to 4-5 from Lar "queer style" Holmes. Any other fighter you want to discredit in this thread just to defend your boys?

2? The young fight, the 2 fights Ali got the nod over Norton and the Jones fight. You might want to try a remedial math course because by my count thats 4. :lol1:

Slimey Limey
01-10-2010, 11:42 AM
Lmao!! Neither were controversial, huh? You really are a laugh a minute.

How convenient to leave out the other crucial part of my post. Tell me, do you have actual evidence to back up your claims? Because without that, it's a fact that Ali made Liston quit and the second time he knocked him down and the referee screwed the rest up.
And how does this compare to what I was reffering to about Holmes mate? Old man, I know you're slow but this is getting redicilous. I'm talking about close fights that most people saw as robberies. Was Liston robbed by Ali?:luvbed:


Maybe you should watch the fight again.

Take your own advice. Even your God thegreatA-hole doesn't think Douggie won that fight.

2? The young fight, the 2 fights Ali got the nod over Norton and the Jones fight. You might want to try a remedial math course because by my count thats 4.

Don't try to make this a math game old man, because you wouldn't win that.
Ali definitely won the second fight against Norton. Only his haters like you argue otherwise and love to claim he lost 3 fights against Norton. It's only the 3rd fight that could have gone either way. Same for the Young fight.

2 against 4-5. Holmes has more gift decisions than any other ATG. He's as overrated as bumbeater.

Now, which other fighter do you want to discredit just to defend your lads?

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 05:05 PM
How convenient to leave out the other crucial part of my post. Tell me, do you have actual evidence to back up your claims? Because without that, it's a fact that Ali made Liston quit and the second time he knocked him down and the referee screwed the rest up.
And how does this compare to what I was reffering to about Holmes mate? Old man, I know you're slow but this is getting redicilous. I'm talking about close fights that most people saw as robberies. Was Liston robbed by Ali?:luvbed:


Do you really need evidence that the fight was controversial? Come on, not even you can be that dense.

Take your own advice. Even your God thegreatA-hole doesn't think Douggie won that fight.


And you show me where I said Jones won, right? I didn't, but quite a few have.

Don't try to make this a math game old man, because you wouldn't win that.Ali definitely won the second fight against Norton. Only his haters like you argue otherwise and love to claim he lost 3 fights against Norton. It's only the 3rd fight that could have gone either way. Same for the Young fight.

I've already won. You were either to blind or to stupid to count past two, ya ta ta.

2 against 4-5. Holmes has more gift decisions than any other ATG. He's as overrated as bumbeater.

Lmao!!! It must burn you up that most respected historians have Louis in the top 2 and Holmes anywhere between 3 and 7 all time huh?

Now, which other fighter do you want to discredit just to defend your lads?

(yawn) Im growing tired now. You're like an old joke. Amusing at first, now you're just boring. Try harder Slimey.:rofl:

TBear
01-10-2010, 05:20 PM
Everybody in history was overrated! Sugar Ray Robinson was just a little better than all them.

GJC
01-10-2010, 05:23 PM
Everybody in history was overrated! Sugar Ray Robinson was just a little better than all them.
Well put sir

donkim
01-10-2010, 06:41 PM
Agreed. It was a very close fight, much the same way Holmes-Williams was a close fight. Im just curious about the double standard slimey has set here.


A very close fight would suggest that the result could be debated.I am still waiting for somebody to put forward a decent argument as for Doug Jones winning anything more than three rounds.


It's a joke that Doug Jones is being credited for having great "facial defense".


He lost a clear decision.

Slimey Limey
01-10-2010, 06:51 PM
Do you really need evidence that the fight was controversial? Come on, not even you can be that dense.

My post went over you head again innit, old man. My statement you are trying to refute is the fact that Holmes probably had the most gift decisions from all the ATG HW's. Are the Ali-Liston fights close, yes or no?
Come on, it's not that hard to answer the question mate.

And you show me where I said Jones won, right? I didn't, but quite a few have.

Actually only Ali haters claim it was close. Objective boxing fans do not doubt Ali's victory. Why don't you try to answer donkim?


I've already won. You were either to blind or to stupid to count past two, ya ta ta.

If it makes ya sleep better at night, then NO you didn't win ****e, old man:luvbed:


Lmao!!! It must burn you up that most respected historians have Louis in the top 2 and Holmes anywhere between 3 and 7 all time huh?

It seems to me that it is burning you up that I don't rate bumbeater and Holmes highly.

(yawn) Im growing tired now.

Getting sleepy already, old man? Or have you forgotten to take you medication.

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 11:05 PM
A very close fight would suggest that the result could be debated.I am still waiting for somebody to put forward a decent argument as for Doug Jones winning anything more than three rounds.


It's a joke that Doug Jones is being credited for having great "facial defense".


He lost a clear decision.

The two judges scored the fight 5-4-1 for Ali. Do you not agree many of the rounds were close? Is it not a fact that many people called this fight fixed? It was a close fight, thats all there is to it. If they had fought again I think Ali would have given him a beating, but they didn't so this is it.

JAB5239
01-10-2010, 11:18 PM
My post went over you head again innit, old man. My statement you are trying to refute is the fact that Holmes probably had the most gift decisions from all the ATG HW's. Are the Ali-Liston fights close, yes or no?
Come on, it's not that hard to answer the question mate.

Nope, just controversial even to this day.

Actually only Ali haters claim it was close. Objective boxing fans do not doubt Ali's victory. Why don't you try to answer donkim?

Lol, anyone who doesn't agree with you is either a hater or a hugger. You're the MOST unobjective poster on these boards.


If it makes ya sleep better at night, then NO you didn't win ****e, old man:luvbed:

. Yup I know. Whats 2+2= again? 3+1=? 6-2=? 9-5=? 2x2=? 4x1=? all basic math. You really should have stayed in school.

It seems to me that it is burning you up that I don't rate bumbeater and Holmes highly.

Your opinion doesn't mean crap to me or anybody else. Hell, you have Wlad in your top 10, you're an idiot.

Getting sleepy already, old man? Or have you forgotten to take you medication.

Slimey, you're gonna have to do better than "old man" if you want to get under my skin. I mean seriously, is that all you got? Is that your best? :lol1:

Slimey Limey
01-11-2010, 12:52 AM
Nope, just controversial even to this day.

And does that have ****e to do with my main argument? No, so you failed in a very epic way there mate.


Lol, anyone who doesn't agree with you is either a hater or a hugger. You're the MOST unobjective poster on these boards.

The only people that claim Douggie won that fight are either trying to discredit Ali or simply hate him. Go ahead, make an argument as to how Doug won that fight. Lets hear it.

Yup I know. Whats 2+2= again? 3+1=? 6-2=? 9-5=? 2x2=? 4x1=? all basic math. You really should have stayed in school.

Kudos mate. Now, lets try that again without a modern device.

Your opinion doesn't mean crap to me or anybody else. Hell, you have Wlad in your top 10, you're an idiot.

Now you're just blatantly telling lies lad. My opinion means everything to you. I get more responses from my posts in a month than you have gotten from yours your entire stay in this website. I have people going mad only because I don't worship Gay and Louis like they were flawless Gods.


Slimey, you're gonna have to do better than "old man" if you want to get under my skin. I mean seriously, is that all you got? Is that your best?

Actually, that has gotten under your skin more than anything else I've thrown at you so far, because I made you go on an offtopic emotional rant, and even pissed you off badly enough for you to give me about 3 infractions.:luvbed: Obviously i'm getting under your wrinkly skin, old man.

Lets also hear more about your boxing career, killer. I wanna know what a tough guy you were.

BoxingTech718
12-24-2010, 10:19 AM
http://i835.photobucket.com/albums/zz275/GAGTP/Thread%20Tools/youfail.gif

kendom
05-24-2011, 05:17 PM
Roy Jones hit harder than Robinson a man rated by ring magazine 11th on greatest punchers of all time and knocked out a man who had never been of his feet before with one punch. Roy Jones may be faster but he is nowhere near the skill level of Robinson which is why he became washed up once his speed eroded, Jones had a shaky chin at best Ray Robinson would have knocked him out. Robinson is not overrated he had it all apeed, boxing skill and power in both hands

Terry A
05-24-2011, 10:22 PM
Even though Ray Robinson is my favorite fighter ever, I can not tell a lie.

So, being careful to not let the fact that Ray Robinson is my all-time #1 favorite fighter ever cloud my judgement, or skew my honesty in posting a totally subjective opinion, I have to admit, in all honesty, that.....Ray Robinson is the best P4P fighter ever.

Most assuredly NOT over-rated. They'll still be talking about him a hundred years from now as being an all time great. When the very best fighters are ever mentioned, his name will be brought up.

That a big majority of boxing historians (that's US) DO rank him so high is meaningful.

ny123
05-24-2011, 10:27 PM
I wonder how many people who comment actually have sat down and watched one or more full fights? I only have seen highlights so I couldn't tell you honestly.

Barnburner
05-25-2011, 04:49 AM
I have Greb ahead of him these days.

Pastrano
05-25-2011, 07:48 AM
He may be overrated slightly. He lost to LaMotta and Turpin clearly, but also beat them in the rematches. He lost quite many fights, but also won awfully many. I think Basilio was the one to really prove that he was kinda overhyped. Public was turning him into this invincible machine type of fighter and he certainly wasn't invincible. And Gene Fullmer beat him twice, tho that was in the twilight of SRR's career.

I guess Americans NEED to have a fighter that they can worship and say NOBODY else was like him or even close. Which is nonsense, hogwash. His longevity is the only reason he's considered nr.1 ATG. If Leonard or Floyd lasted as long, they might even surpass him.

fitefanSHO
05-25-2011, 10:56 AM
You can tell a thread about Sugar Ray Robinson being "overrated" is not going to go well when the OP can't even be bothered to spell out Robinson's name. Not sure which is a bigger sign of disrespect. I mean, it's bad enough to suggest he was anything but the GREATEST fighter who ever lived, but then to lazily call him SRR. Man, kids these days... :nonono:

No respect.

Barnburner
05-25-2011, 11:01 AM
Robinson was way past his prime for Basilio and beat him in the rematch as well.

He lost to LaMotta 1 out of 6 times while weight asa WW.

IIIX JACK XIII
05-25-2011, 11:05 AM
So you want to know why Sugar Ray was the greatest...


Undefeated Amateur Featherweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated Amateur Lightweight Golden Gloves Champion
Undefeated & Uncrowned Lightweight Champion
Undefeated Welterweight Champion
5 Time World Middleweight Champion
And Nearly the Light Heavyweight Champion


Amateur Career:


Overall, Robinson had an open record of 85-0, winning both the Featherweight and Lightweight Golden Gloves Championships in the process. 65 of the wins came by KO, 40 of which took place in the first round.


Lightweight Career:


You're probably asking yourself, “What Lightweight career?”. Although a brief one, Robinson did in fact have a substantial Lightweight career. He beat the NBA and soon to be World Lightweight Champion (Sammy Angott) after all, whilst maintaining a record of 21-0 with 18 KOs. His additional notable opponents included Pete Lello and Maxie Shapiro.


Welterweight Career:


As a Welterweight, Robinson was undefeated. Going against the likes of Fritzie Zivic, Henry Armstrong, and Kid Gavilan, this was an impressive feat. Counting Robinson's actual amount of Welterweight fights is rather tricky considering he often mixed it up with Middleweights as well. Nonetheless I have calculated that it was about 58 fights. He won them all without draws, and did so with no real controversial victories, the closest to controversy being the first fight with Kid Gavilan. It's also important to note that whilst still being a natural Welterweight, Robinson had beat Jake LaMotta 4 out of 5 times.


Middleweight Career:


Robinson's MW Record before becoming World Champion for the 1st time
*Includes his winning of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Jake LaMotta (x5)
Vic Dellicurti (x3)
Lou Woods
Jose Basora
Jimmy Mandell
Tony Riccio
Freddie Flores (x2)
Freddie Wilson (x2)
Vinnie Vines
Artie Levine
Georgie Abrams
Eddie Finazzo
Ossie Harris (x2)
Henry Brimm (x2)
Don Lee (x2)
Earl Turner
Cecil Hudson (x2)
Steve Belloise
Charley Dodson
Aaron Wade
Cliff Beckett (x2)
Ray Barnes
Robert Villemain (x2)
Billy Brown
Joe Rindone
Bobo Olson
Jean Stock
Luc van Dam
Hans Stretz

Losses:
Jake LaMotta II

Draws:
Jose Basora
Henry Brimm

That's 43 Middleweight wins with only 1 loss and 2 draws upon winning the World Championship.


Robinson's MW Record from after winning the title for the 1st time to losing it for the last time
*Does not include his first winning of the title
*Does not include his last loss of the title
*Fighters in bold are notable

Wins:
Holley Mims
Don Ellis
Kid Marcel
Jean Wanes
Jan de Bruin
Jean Walzack
Gerhard Hecht (Although declared a NC, for all intensive purposes it's a win)
Cyrille Delannoit
Randy Turpin
Bobo Olson (x3)
Rocky Graziano
Joe Rindone
Johnny Lombardo
Ted Olla
Garth Panter
Rocky Castellani
Bob Provizzi
Gene Fullmer
Carmen Basilio
Bob Young

Losses:
Randy Turpin I
Joey Maxim
Ralph Jones
Gene Fullmer I
Carmen Basilio I


That's 22 Middleweight wins with 5 losses, but 1 was at LHW.

So lets do some math here, 46 + 26 = 72. Robinson essentially had 72 Middleweight fights before you could officially label him as washed up (when he finally lost his MW title for the last time). Of those 72 fights, he won 65, lost 5, and drew twice. One loss came in a fight where he was outweighed by 16 lbs, and three came after he returned from retirement. Randy Turpin's win over Robinson is perhaps the only really meaningful one. Yet when Turpin beat Robinson, Ray had already previously had 132 professional bouts. Everyone who beat Robinson, aside from Tiger Jones (who caught Robinson nearly just out of retirement), was a great fighter. The names on his resume speak for themselves, the man truly was the greatest.


Robinson's Unquantified-but-Detailed Complete Career Resume:

*Info below uses Ring Annual Ratings
*Hall of Famers in bold

Pete Lello (#3 LW – 1940)
Sammy Angott (#1 LW – 1940, LW Champ – 1941, #2 LW – 1943, #8 WW – 1945)
Maxie Shapiro (#8 LW – 1942)
Marty Servo [Undefeated] (WW Champ – 1946)
Fritzie Zivic (WW Champ – 1940, #3 WW – 1941, #8 WW 1942)
Maxie Berger (JWW Champ – 1939, #6 WW – 1940)
Norman Rubio (#10 WW – 1941)
Reuben Shank (#8 MW – 1943)
Tony Motisi (#9 WW – 1942)
Jake LaMotta (#6 MW – 1942, #1 MW – 1943, #2 MW – 1944, #3 MW – 1945, #1 MW – 1946)
(#5 MW – 1947, #3 MW – 1948, MW Champ – 1949 & 1950)
Izzy Janazzo (#2 WW – 1940, #8 WW – 1941 & 1943)
Vic Dellicurti (#10 MW – 1944)
Al Nettlow (couple close fights with Bob Montgomery, beat Maxie Berger)
California Jackie Wilson (#2 WW – 1941, #3 WW – 1942)
Ralph Zannelli (#5 WW – 1943, #4 WW – 1947)
Henry Armstrong (WW Champ – 1938 & 1939, #1 WW – 1940, #2 WW – 1942, #1 WW – 1944)
Sheik Rangel (#10 WW – 1942)
George Martin (beat Ralph Zannelli, Garvey Young, V. Vines, Pedro Montanez, Battling Battalino, Andy Callahan)
Tommy Bell (#1 WW – 1946, #2 WW – 1947)
George Costner (#5 WW – 1947, #2 WW – 1949)
Jimmy McDaniels (#4 WW – 1944)
O'Neill Bell (just beat George Costner, Jackie Wilson, and Fritzie Zivic back to back to back)
Joe Curcio (beat Fritzie Zivic, Cecil Hudson, and Johnny Green)
Vinnie Vines (beat Sam Baroudi and Jackie Alzek)
Ossie Harris (beat Tommy Bell, Reuben Shank, and Fritzie Zivic)
Cecil Hudson (beat Tommy Bell, Fritzie Zivic, Freddie Dixon, Ossie Harris, & Sheik Rangel)
Artie Levine (beat Jimmy Doyle, Marvin Bryant, Vic Dellicurti, Herbie Kronowitz, & Joe Agosta)
Georgie Abrams (#5 MW – 1946)
Jimmy Doyle (#2 WW – 1945, #7 WW – 1946)
Billy Nixon (beat Johnny Green, Buster Tyler, & Johnny Hutchinson)
Chuck Taylor (beat Frankie Abrams, Tony Pellone, and Honeychile Johnson)
Henry Brimm (beat Vic Dellicurti, Holman Williams, Joey DeJohn, Arte Towne, & Tony Elizondo)
Bernard Docusen (#3 WW – 1948 & 1949)
Kid Gavilan (#1 WW – 1948, 1949, 1950, & 1951, WW Champ – 1952 & 1953)
Bobby Lee (beat Livio Minelli, Billy Nixon, Nava Esparza, Dorsey Lay, Honeychile Johnson, Chico Varona, & Gene Burton)
Don Lee (beat Jimmy McDaniels, Vince Foster, Sheik Rangel, Joe Danos, Howard Bleyhl, Billy Tierney)
Earl Turner (beat Sheik Rangel, Fred Apostoli, Cecil Hudson, Cocoa Kid, Don Lee, Jackie Wilson, George Costner, George Duke, etc)
Steve Belloise (#2 MW – 1948, #5 MW – 1949)
Al Mobley (beat Fritzie Zivic, Georgie Benton, Honeychile Johnson, George Martin, Sylvester Perkins, Otis Graham, & Bert Linam)
Aaron Wade (#7 MW – 1945)
Ray Barnes (#7 MW – 1950)
Robert Villemain (#3 MW – 1949, #8 MW – 1950, #9 MW – 1951)
Charley Fusari (#3 WW – 1950, #8 WW – 1951)
Jose Basora (#4 MW – 1943 & 1944)
Joe Rindone (beat Ralph Zannelli, Paul Pender, Bob Murphy, Pierre Langlois, Joe Blackwood, Charley Zivic, & Henry Lee)
Bobo Olson (#3 MW – 1952, MW Champ – 1953 & 1954, #1 MW – 1955)
Bobby Dykes (#2 WW – 1952, #5 MW – 1953)
Jean Stock (beat Randy Turpin, Bobby Dawson, Omar Kouidri, Cyrille Delannoit, Robert Charron, Edouard Tenet)
Luc van Dam (beat Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Jacques Royer Crecy, Albert Finch, Bep van Klaveren, & Felix Wouters)
Hans Stretz (beat Randy Turpin, Jacques Royer Crecy, Al Mobley, Peter Mueller, Rudi Pepper)
(Carl Schmidt, Heinz Sanger, Alex Buxton, Johnny Sullivan, Franco Festucci)
Holley Mims (#8 MW – 1953, #3 MW – 1954, #6 MW – 1955)
Cyrille Delannoit (#5 MW – 1948)
Randy Turpin (#1 MW – 1951 & 1952, MW Champ – 1951)
Rocky Graziano (#3 MW – 1946, MW Champ – 1947, #10 MW – 1948 & 1951)
Garth Panter (beat Pierre Langlois, Walter Cartier, and Earl Turner)
Rocky Castellani (#1 MW – 1953, #2 MW – 1954, #5 MW – 1955)
Gene Fullmer (#1 MW – 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #2 MW – 1957 & 1958, #1 MW – 1959, 1960, 1961, & 1962)
Carmen Basilio (WW Champ – 1955 & 1956, MW Champ – 1957, #1 MW – 1958)
Denny Moyer (#9 MW – 1961, #6 MW – 1962, JMW Champ – 1963, #9 MW – 1968, #2 MW – 1969)
Ralph Dupas (#2 WW – 1961, #3 WW – 1962, #4 WW – 1963, JMW Champ – 1963)
Yoland Leveque (beat Bennie Briscoe, Jacques Marty, Art Hernandez, & Bo Hogberg)


Wow, if you did something similar for a bunch of great fighters and made it in to a book id definately buy it, i like the straight facts and stats with no fairytale bull****.

Pastrano
05-25-2011, 11:12 AM
Robinson was way past his prime for Basilio and beat him in the rematch as well.

He lost to LaMotta 1 out of 6 times while weight asa WW.

Fullmer kicked his butt twice and if SRR didnt have the power, he wouldnt ever have beaten Fullmer, not past prime. He beat him by ko. Same as Turpin. So its a bit unfair to say he was ATG best TECHNICIAN, coz he wasn't. Pep, Leonard, Locche and Benitez were all smarter and had better defense. As were/did Langford, Gans and Wilde.

Barnburner
05-25-2011, 11:16 AM
fullmer kicked his butt twice and if srr didnt have the power, he wouldnt ever have beaten fullmer, not past prime. He beat him by ko. Same as turpin. So its a bit unfair to say he was atg best technician, coz he wasn't. Pep, leonard, locche and benitez were all smarter and had better defense. As were/did langford, gans and wilde.
what ****ing age was he???????????????????

Fullmer was a great fighter and losing to him while in your late thirties shoulnt be critisized, especially if you win once and draw once out of 4.

hhascup
05-25-2011, 11:48 AM
I love lists and stats as most of you that know me know, and Obama's list is outstanding. I also have many of those lists as well.

Robinson actually fought a total of 62 bouts that were against fighters that were rated in the top 10 when he fought them, out of his 200 bouts. That's a percentage of 31%. Just to let you know, the all-time best for HOF'ers was Ali's who was over 60%.

He also fought 71 different opponents a total of 108 times, that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another, for a percentage of 54%. Just to let you know, the all-time best for HOF'ers was Ali's who was over 80%.

Here's what I have on Maxie Rosenbloom (http://api.getsmartlinks.com/r?app_id=opencandy&guid=814C5C13-C565-E033-645D-E04B3EB2B323&time=130633676&ref_hash=5b25a39b&url=http:%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FMaxie_Ros enbloom&pid=1&cid=437&link_id=3208111&score=2.13&sense=RckTnGOjKbQwnWyYkg9_eA&hash=97ace1b03ac342d3e37d72cf6c3fe395&v[scoring2en]=ctr2SimAnc&v[adk_prio2]=c2v)

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:DoNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--> Opponent-Time Rated-Months Rated-Highest Rating-Record Against

Jimmy Delaney 2/25-2/27 3 8 - 0-1-0
Jack Delaney 2/25 –1/29 10 1 - 0-1-0 HOF
Young Stribling x2 2/25-2/33 54 1 - 0-2-0 HOF
Jimmy Slattery x7 2/25-2/32 50 1 - 3-4-0 HOF
Leo Lomski x6 2/26-4/31 34 1 - 3-1-2
George Manley x2 4/28-4/33 29 1 - 0-2-0
King Levinsky 11/30-8/36 52 2 - 1-0-0
Jim Braddock x2 2/28-4/38 48 C - 1-0-0 (1 NC) HOF
Cuban Bobby Brown x4 7/28-10/29 12 5 - 4-0-0
Tiger Jack Payne x4 9/28-8/29 9 6 - 3-0-1
Pete Latzo x2 2/25-7/31 28 C - 1-1-0
Lou Scozza x7 8/28-5/34 58 1 - 4-3-0
Charley Belanger x3 5/28-10/31 27 5 - 3-0-0
Fred Lenhart x3 9/29-5/38 41 2 - 1-1-1
Billy Jones x3 8/29-12/34 49 1 -2-1-0
Dave Maier 1/32-8/32 8 1 - 0-1-0
Al Gainer x2 11/30-2/42 98 1 - 1-0-1
Bob Olin 12/30-2/39 47 C - 0-1-0
Joe Knight x2 8/31-5/36 54 1 - 0-1-1
Adolf Heuser 4/32-2/40 40 1 - 1-0-0
Bob Godwin x7 12/31-5/35 36 1 - 3-1-3
Bob Pastor 12/36-2/43 67 1 - 0-0-1
Jimmy Adamick x2 2/38-2/39 8 6 - 1-1-0
Lou Nova 2/38-8/45 50 1 - 1-0-0
John Henry Lewis x5 1/33-1/40 86 C - 3-2-0 HOF
Tony Shucco x2 8/32-2/43 48 1 - 1-1-0
Clyde Chastain x3 4/30-6/34 5 1 - 0-1-2
Mickey Walker x2 2/25-9/34 67 C - 1-1-0 HOF
Johnny Miler x3 1/35-2/35 2 7 - 2-0-1
Leo Kelly x4 3/35-9/37 19 1 - 3-0-1
Tiger Jack Fox x3 6/37-11/44 36 1 - 1-1-1
Tiger Flowers x3 2/25-2/28 4 1 - 1-0-2 HOF
Johnny Wilson x2 2/25-2/25 1 5 - 2-0-0
Jock Malone 2/25-12/29 4 6 - 0-1-0
Dave Shade x2 2/25-2/35 78 1 - 2-0-0 HOF
Roland Todd 2/26-2/26 1 9 - 1-0-0
Phil Kaplan x2 2/26-9/30 18 2 - 2-0-0
Tommy Milligan 2/26-9/28 4 2 - 0-1-0
Jack McVey x2 2/26-4/31 37 3 - 2-0-0
Frankie Schoell x6 2/25-6/29 15 6 - 3-1-2
Ace Hudkins 2/26-2/32 36 1 - 1-0-0
Harry Ebbets 4/28-8/33 42 1 - 1-0-0
Harry Greb 2/25-2/26 2 1 - 0-1-0 HOF
Owen Phelps 10/31-12/32 3 7 - 1-0-0
Art Weigand 2/26-8/28 6 7 - 0-1-0

60-33-19 (1 NC) = 113

Roscoe Toles x1 6/37-5/43 49 4 - 1-0-0
Joe Anderson x4 2/27-12/28 6 4 - 3-0-1
Yale Okun xx2 2/26-6/32 8 2 - 1-0-1
Osk Till x2 2/27-4/29 2 6 - 2-0-0
Lee Ramage x4 5/32-5/37 21 7 - 1-2-1
Leroy Haynes x2 4/36-2/39 11 3 - 2-0-0
Larry Johnson x3 2/30-2/32 16 1 - 3-0-0

that’s well in excess of 100 fights against the best middles, light heavies and heavies. Plenty of Hall of Famers as well.

73–35-22 (1 NC) = 131

He also fought the following boxers that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another.

Young Johnny Burns – 0-0-1
George Courtney – 1-0-0
Allentown Joe Gans – 1-0-0
Frank Moody – 1-0-0
Young Tony Marullo – 1-0-0
Tiger Thomas – 1-0-0
Harry Dillon – 1-0-0
Leo Williams – 2-0-0
Joe Sekyra – 1-0-0
George Hoffman – 1-0-0
Abie Bain – 1-0-0
Joe Banovic – 2-0-0
Dick Daniels – 1-0-0
Gordon Fortenbberry – 2-0-0
Don “Red” Barry – 1-0-0
Natie Brown - 1-0-0
KO Christner - 1-0-0
Rosy Rosales - 2-0-0
Wilson Dunn - 1-0-0
Charley Massera – 1-1-0
Leroy Brown - 1-0-0
Frank Rowsey – 3-0-0
Oscar Rankin - 1-0-0
Ford Smith - 1-0-0
Hank Hankinson – 0-2-0
Alberto Santiago Lovell – 0-1-0
Bob Nestell - 1-0-0
Al Ettore - 1-0-0
Battling Bozo – 1-0-3
Patsy Perroni - 1-0-0

106-39-26 (1 NC) = 172

That is by far the most Top 10 contenders that one boxer ever fought. The next highest is 109. If you go by percentage wise, Ali is on top with over 80% (49 out of 61). These last figures are based on boxers that were rated in the Top 10 at one time or another. Ali was 32-5 against boxers that were rated in the top 10 at the time he fought them.

Maxie also beat Ted Kid Lewis, BUT even though Lewis was a Champion, he was never rated in the Top 10 by Ring because they didn't have ratings until 1925 and Lewis was past his prime by then.

hhascup
05-25-2011, 11:50 AM
Here's what I have on Harry Greb, who fought almost all his carer before they had a rating system.

Harry Greb (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9019&cat=boxer)
Young Ahearn (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11269&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Soldier Bartfield (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11280&cat=boxer) 3-1-1
Jack Blackburn (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11022&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Lou Bogash (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11329&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Joe Borrell (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11242&cat=boxer) 2-1-1
Bill Brennan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10603&cat=boxer) 4-0-0
Martin Burke (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11333&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
George Chip (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11253&cat=boxer) 3-2-0
Jimmy Delaney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11340&cat=boxer) 3-0-0
Jack Dillon (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11273&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Bryan Downey (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11330&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Tiger Flowers (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11336&cat=boxer) 1-2-0
Allentown Joe Gans (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=40820&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Mike Gibbons (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11267&cat=boxer) 1-1-0
Tommy Gibbons (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11254&cat=boxer) 2-2-0
Leo Houck (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11295&cat=boxer) 3-0-0
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) 6-0-0
Tommy Loughran (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11326&cat=boxer) 4-1-1
Tony Marullo (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11353&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Al McCoy (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10530&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Eddie McGoorty (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11292&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Mike McTigue (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11287&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Willie Meehan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10585&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Billy Miske (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10592&cat=boxer) 2-0-1
Frank Moody (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11334&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Ted Moore (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11335&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Kid Norfolk (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11318&cat=boxer) 1-1-0
Mike O'Dowd (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11286&cat=boxer) 0-1-0
Owen Phelps (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11357&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Augie Ratner (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11283&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Jack Renault (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11315&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Quintin Romero Rojas (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=40120&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Maxie Rosenbloom (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11349&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Billy Shade (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11321&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Jimmy Slattery (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11337&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Gunboat Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11290&cat=boxer) 2-0-0
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer) 7-0-0
Roland Todd (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11354&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Gene Tunney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9046&cat=boxer) 1-3-1
Mickey Walker (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9035&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Art Weigand (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11358&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Charley Weinert (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=13546&cat=boxer) 1-0-0
Chuck Wiggins (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11300&cat=boxer) 7-0-2
Johnny Wilson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11328&cat=boxer) 3-0-0

87-15-7 = 109

Harry Greb best Wins

Gene Tunney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9046&cat=boxer) (1) – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11326&cat=boxer) (4) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Slattery (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11337&cat=boxer) (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11349&cat=boxer) (1) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jack Dillon (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11273&cat=boxer) (2) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) (6) – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mickey Walker (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9035&cat=boxer) (1) – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Billy Miske (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10592&cat=boxer) (2) – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Tommy Gibbons (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11254&cat=boxer) (2) – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Mike Gibbons (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11267&cat=boxer) (1) – Hall of Famer – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Tiger Flowers (http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11336&cat=boxer) (1) – Hall of Famer - World Middleweight Champion
Kid Norfolk (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11318&cat=boxer) (1) – Hall of Famer
Mike McTigue (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11287&cat=boxer) (2) – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Al McCoy (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10530&cat=boxer) (2) – World Middleweight Champion
George Chip (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11253&cat=boxer) (2) – World Middleweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11328&cat=boxer) (3) – World Middleweight Champion
Eddie McGoorty (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11292&cat=boxer) (1) – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10585&cat=boxer) (2) – Beat Dempsey twice
Gunboat Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11290&cat=boxer) (2) – Top Heavyweight
Bill Brennan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10603&cat=boxer) (4) – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Augie Ratner (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11283&cat=boxer) – (2) - Defeated four world champions in his career

Jack Blackburn (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11022&cat=boxer) – (1) – Hall of Famer as a trainer
Young Ahearn (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11269&cat=boxer)
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer)
Soldier Bartfield (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11280&cat=boxer)
Leo Houck (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11295&cat=boxer)
Tommy Robson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11298&cat=boxer)
Bartley Madden (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11303&cat=boxer)
Tommy Robson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11298&cat=boxer)
Joe Borrell (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11242&cat=boxer)
Bob Moha (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11264&cat=boxer)
Chuck Wiggins (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11300&cat=boxer)
Jack Renault (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11315&cat=boxer)
Charley Weinert (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=13546&cat=boxer)
Billy Shade (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11321&cat=boxer)
Homer Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10589&cat=boxer)
Lou Bogash (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11329&cat=boxer)
Bryan Downey (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11330&cat=boxer)
Jackie Clark (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11259&cat=boxer)
Jimmy Delaney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11340&cat=boxer)
Jack Reddick (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11345&cat=boxer)
Roland Todd (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11354&cat=boxer)
Allentown Joe Gans (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=40820&cat=boxer)

hhascup
05-25-2011, 11:51 AM
Harry Greb best Wins
Young Ahearn (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11269&cat=boxer) 69-14-12
Al McCoy (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10530&cat=boxer) 69-33-30 – World Middleweight Champion
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer) 28-13-1
George Chip (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11253&cat=boxer) 62-20-8 – World Middleweight Champion
Jack Dillon (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11273&cat=boxer) 166-14-24 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) 136-29-26 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer) 30-14-1
George Chip (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11253&cat=boxer) 65-23-9 – World Middleweight Champion
Willie Meehan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10585&cat=boxer) 65-12-33 – Beat Dempsey twice
Augie Ratner (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11283&cat=boxer) 34-3-3
Jack Dillon (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11273&cat=boxer) 168-19-26 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11287&cat=boxer) 44-16-3 – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Al McCoy (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10530&cat=boxer) 70-38-31 – World Middleweight Champion
Soldier Bartfield (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11280&cat=boxer) 96-20-19
Gunboat Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11290&cat=boxer) 75-30-9 – Top Heavyweight
Soldier Bartfield (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11280&cat=boxer) 96-21-19
Soldier Bartfield (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11280&cat=boxer) 97-22-19
Eddie McGoorty (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11292&cat=boxer) 77-13-15 – Claimed World Middleweight Champion
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) 143-32-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Billy Miske (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10592&cat=boxer) 43-9-10 – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Leo Houck (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11295&cat=boxer) 109-23-18
Soldier Bartfield (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11280&cat=boxer) 99-24-22
Tommy Robson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11298&cat=boxer) 41-14-6
Bill Brennan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10603&cat=boxer) 40-8-5 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) 146-34-30 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Leo Houck (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11295&cat=boxer) 113-24-18
Bill Brennan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10603&cat=boxer) 40-9-5 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Billy Miske (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10592&cat=boxer) 48-11-10 – Hall of Famer - Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Leo Houck (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11295&cat=boxer) 116-26-18
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) 147-35-30 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Willie Meehan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10585&cat=boxer) 73-16-35 – Beat Dempsey twice
Bartley Madden (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11303&cat=boxer) 20-9-4
Tommy Robson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11298&cat=boxer) 43-17-6
Joe Borrell (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11242&cat=boxer) 50-25-10
Mike Gibbons (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11267&cat=boxer) 87-3-9 – Hall of Famer
Bill Brennan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10603&cat=boxer) 40-11-6 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) 148-37-31 – Hall of Famer – World Champion
Bill Brennan (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10603&cat=boxer) 40-12-6 – Fought Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer) 41-19-1
Battling Levinsky (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10598&cat=boxer) 151-38-31 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Mike McTigue (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11287&cat=boxer) 51-19-5 – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Tommy Robson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11298&cat=boxer) 49-20-7
Bob Moha (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11264&cat=boxer) 39-18-9
Tommy Gibbons (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11254&cat=boxer) 49-0-3 – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Bob Moha (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11264&cat=boxer) 39-19-9
Chuck Wiggins (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11300&cat=boxer) 23-5-3
Gunboat Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11290&cat=boxer) 81-41-14
Bartley Madden (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11303&cat=boxer) 25-14-5
Bob Moha (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11264&cat=boxer) 40-20-9
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer) 57-21-2
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer) 57-22-2

(http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11315&cat=boxer)

hhascup
05-25-2011, 11:52 AM
Harry Greb Best Wins Cont:

Jack Renault (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11315&cat=boxer) 15-1-2
Bartley Madden (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11303&cat=boxer) 26-17-5
Kid Norfolk (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11318&cat=boxer) 59-7-1 – Hall of Famer
Chuck Wiggins (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11300&cat=boxer) 31-12-6
Charley Weinert (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=13546&cat=boxer) 53-12-3
Billy Shade (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11321&cat=boxer) 38-9-18
Homer Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=10589&cat=boxer) 38-11-4
Chuck Wiggins (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11300&cat=boxer) 35-14-6
Jeff Smith (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11274&cat=boxer) 65-25-3
Tommy Gibbons (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11254&cat=boxer) 75-1-3 – Hall of Famer – Went 15 rounds with Dempsey for Heavyweight Title
Gene Tunney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9046&cat=boxer) 48-0-2 – Hall of Famer – World Heavyweight Champion – Beat Dempsey twice
Tommy Loughran (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11326&cat=boxer) 25-1-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Tommy Loughran (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11326&cat=boxer) 27-3-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Tommy Loughran (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11326&cat=boxer) 27-4-3 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11328&cat=boxer) 70-16-4 – World Middleweight Champion
Lou Bogash (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11329&cat=boxer) 75-9-15
Chuck Wiggins (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11300&cat=boxer) 44-25-9
Bryan Downey (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11330&cat=boxer) 74-26-16
Tommy Loughran (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11326&cat=boxer) 33-7-4 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Johnny Wilson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11328&cat=boxer) 73-17-4 – World Middleweight Champion
Jackie Clark (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11259&cat=boxer) 112-53-38
Jimmy Slattery (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11337&cat=boxer) 48-1-0 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Jimmy Delaney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11340&cat=boxer) 40-5-5
Augie Ratner (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11283&cat=boxer) 60-23-9 - Defeated four world champions in his career
Jimmy Delaney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11340&cat=boxer) 40-7-5
Johnny Wilson (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11328&cat=boxer) 75-21-4 – World Middleweight Champion
Jack Reddick (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11345&cat=boxer) 25-5-3
Mickey Walker (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9035&cat=boxer) 49-9-1 – Hall of Famer – World Welterweight & Middleweight Champion
Maxie Rosenbloom (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11349&cat=boxer) 32-3-5 – Hall of Famer – World Light Heavyweight Champion
Roland Todd (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11354&cat=boxer) 60-11-3
Jimmy Delaney (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11340&cat=boxer) 46-10-6
Allentown Joe Gans (http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=40820&cat=boxer) 30-11-9

studentofthegam
05-25-2011, 12:00 PM
He earned it. He would have been good in any era. Fast, powerful and fearless is a pretty good combo. I only think he was overrated as a genuinely swell gentleman. Thats the biggest joke I heard but as a fighter he was top notch.