View Full Version : Bert Sugar Top 10 Heavyweights


sonnyboyx2
01-04-2010, 06:39 AM
From his top 100 list he has the Heavyweights in this order.

1/. Joe Louis
2/. Muhammad Ali
3/. Jack Dempsey
4/. Jack Johnson
5/. Gene Tunney
6/. Rocky Marciano
7/. Ezzard Charles
8/. George Foreman
9/. Joe Frazier
10/. Evander Holyfield

Great list which i agree with... here is my take on it

1/. Louis -- longest reign + most title defences
2/. Ali -- 3 time champ who fought best oppostion
3/. Dempsey -- ferocious fighting machine
4/. Johnson -- ruled for a decade, brilliant defensive master
5/. Tunney -- 1st ever scientific style fighter & undefeated
6/. Marciano -- 49-0
7/. Charles -- brilliant boxer/fighter who could do it all
8/. Foreman -- Hardest puncher ever & oldest ever champ
9/. Frazier -- brilliant pressure fighter who won FOTC
10/. Holyfield -- 4 times champion

The Stone Roses
01-04-2010, 06:41 AM
terrible list....Bert Sugar is only a journalist, he's about as credible as Brian Kenny.....Larry Holmes?? Lennox Lewis???....and Joe Louis ahead of Ali???? c'mon who are you kidding

sonnyboyx2
01-04-2010, 07:06 AM
terrible list....Bert Sugar is only a journalist, he's about as credible as Brian Kenny.....Larry Holmes?? Lennox Lewis???....and Joe Louis ahead of Ali???? c'mon who are you kidding

Bert has Larry Holmes at No11
no place for Lennox Lewis and rightly so..
Joe Louis ahead of Ali... a case can be made for it.

Rocker
01-04-2010, 10:22 AM
Tunney at #5? He only had a few fights at heavyweight.

Ziggy Stardust
01-04-2010, 10:24 AM
Must be a newer list because as of the late 80s early 90s Sugar still had Jack Johnson ranked #1 and Ali didn't crack his top-5 :rofl:

Poet

LeeVanCleef
01-04-2010, 10:35 AM
No way Lennox Lewis is on the Top 10. By the time he fought a shot Tyson but fought 2 good matches with Holyfield, he ran out of good Heavyweight fighters.

hhascup
01-04-2010, 12:28 PM
Here's the 2 lists that Bert Sugar listed that I saw:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u1:WordDocument> <u1:View>Normal</u1:View> <u1:Zoom>0</u1:Zoom> <w :D oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u1:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes
Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic


<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u2:WordDocument> <u2:View>Normal</u2:View> <u2:Zoom>0</u2:Zoom> <w :D oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u2:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson<o></o>

I am suppose to be with him this coming Sunday in New York at the Ring 8 Christmas Party at Russo's on the Bay.

The Stone Roses
01-04-2010, 12:31 PM
Here's the 2 lists that Bert Sugar listed that I saw:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u1:WordDocument> <u1:View>Normal</u1:View> <u1:Zoom>0</u1:Zoom> <w :D oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u1:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes
Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic


<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u2:WordDocument> <u2:View>Normal</u2:View> <u2:Zoom>0</u2:Zoom> <w :D oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u2:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson<o></o>

I am suppose to be with him this coming Sunday in New York at the Ring 8 Christmas Party at Russo's on the Bay.
Tell him we don't give a ****e about his lists.....he aint a historian, he is a journalist

hhascup
01-04-2010, 12:44 PM
Tell him we don't give a ****e about his lists.....he aint a historian, he is a journalist

Well, I knew Bert for many years and we had some long talks. Most knowledgeable boxing people would disagree with you. I know he gets carried away telling all his stories and at times makes some mistakes BUT you have to remember, most of the time he is doing this off the chuff.

By the way, what is your top 10. Honestly, I have seen most of the top boxing Historians top 10 lists and no one lists them in the same order.

JAB5239
01-04-2010, 12:58 PM
Berts list....

1/. Joe Louis
2/. Muhammad Ali
3/. Jack Dempsey
4/. Jack Johnson
5/. Gene Tunney
6/. Rocky Marciano
7/. Ezzard Charles
8/. George Foreman
9/. Joe Frazier
10/. Evander Holyfield

My list...


12. frazier
11. Dempsey
10. Marciano
9. Holyfield
8. Liston
7. Tyson
6. Foreman
5. Lewis
4. Johnson
3. Holmes
2. Ali
1. Louis

sonnyboyx2
01-04-2010, 01:29 PM
Berts list....

1/. Joe Louis
2/. Muhammad Ali
3/. Jack Dempsey
4/. Jack Johnson
5/. Gene Tunney
6/. Rocky Marciano
7/. Ezzard Charles
8/. George Foreman
9/. Joe Frazier
10/. Evander Holyfield

My list...


12. frazier
11. Dempsey
10. Marciano
9. Holyfield
8. Liston
7. Tyson
6. Foreman
5. Lewis
4. Johnson
3. Holmes
2. Ali
1. Louis

IMO Bert`s list has credibility the former only favouritism

JAB5239
01-04-2010, 01:45 PM
Berts list....

1/. Joe Louis
2/. Muhammad Ali
3/. Jack Dempsey
4/. Jack Johnson
5/. Gene Tunney
6/. Rocky Marciano
7/. Ezzard Charles
8/. George Foreman
9/. Joe Frazier
10/. Evander Holyfield

My list...


12. frazier
11. Dempsey
10. Marciano
9. Holyfield
8. Liston
7. Tyson
6. Foreman
5. Lewis
4. Johnson
3. Holmes
2. Ali
1. Louis

IMO Bert`s list has credibility the former only favouritism

Thats interesting. I'd be happy to debate my list if you'd like.

I'll start with our top 5's and let you start the 6-10, ok?

Bert and I have the same picks for the 1,2 and 4 spots. At number 3 he has Dempsey, I have Holmes. While I consider Dempsey a great fighter he simply wasn't as impressive as Holmes. Larry had more longevity and better wins in my opinion as well as 20 consecutive title defenses.

At number 5 I have Lennox Lewis, Bert has Gene Tunney. I don't even consider this debatable. While both beat every man the ever faced Lennox Lewis cleared out his division and was easily the best heavyweight of his era. Tunney was an excellent fighter who beat a faded inactive legend, that it.

sonnyboyx2
01-04-2010, 02:31 PM
Thats interesting. I'd be happy to debate my list if you'd like.

I'll start with our top 5's and let you start the 6-10, ok?

Bert and I have the same picks for the 1,2 and 4 spots. At number 3 he has Dempsey, I have Holmes. While I consider Dempsey a great fighter he simply wasn't as impressive as Holmes. Larry had more longevity and better wins in my opinion as well as 20 consecutive title defenses.

At number 5 I have Lennox Lewis, Bert has Gene Tunney. I don't even consider this debatable. While both beat every man the ever faced Lennox Lewis cleared out his division and was easily the best heavyweight of his era. Tunney was an excellent fighter who beat a faded inactive legend, that it.

your entitled to your opinion which i am not knocking, however IMO i rate Berts choice above your choice.. Bert had Holmes at No11 and you say Holmes in your opinion would beat Dempsey.. i am cool with that.. However i have made my case a few times on this forum against Lewis, sorry i dont agree with your statement that Lewis vs Tunney is not debatable or that he cleaned-out a division.

Tunney was the first ever scientific boxer and a master craftsman who twice beat the great Jack Dempsey.. i have both their fights and Dempsey is as relentless in his aggresion as a prime Mike Tyson yet cannot trap the fleet footed Tunney.. Lewis with his "Two-Left-Feet" would have zero chance.. Tunney could also hit quite a bit with 48 of his 66 wins coming by KO.. Lewis would be knackered after 8rds and IMO Tunney would knock him out.. journeymen like McCall & Rahman poleaxed Lewis so a guy of the calibre of Tunney also has a great chance... i cannot go along with the case that Lewis is 4ins taller and 35lbs heavier.. IMO that would be a massive hinderence to him..

you say Lewis cleaned out a division.. i could go on all night about that quote.. so in a nutshell... Lewis was given the WBC belt in 1992 and retired 10yrs later.. during those 10yrs Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Mercer, Wlad Klitschko, Hide, Sanders, Bowe, Tyson all held versions or undisputed titles yet Lewis never faced them, Lewis won the undisputed title by a very desputed decision from Evander Holyfield in 1999 with 43 of the 48 ringside reporters having Holyfield the clear winner, Lewis then refused to fight the No1 contenders so was stripped of every belt, WBA for refusing to fight John Ruiz, IBF for refusing to fight Chris Byrd, WBC for refusing Vitali Klitschko.. now which ever way you look at it, you cannot dissagree that Lewis did not as you claim "Clean out the division".. as for beating every man he ever faced.. Lewis only ever faced 2 fighters who was at the top of their game, Rahman & McCall who both poleaxed him yet both are not elite level fighters.. the other fighters Lewis fought during that time was all on the slide or Class D fighters, Botha, Akinwande, Jackson, Grant, Butler, Fortune, Mavrovik, Morrison, Tucker, Bruno and when Lewis beat Tyson it was a shell of the former ATG he beat.. that Tyson was also beaten by Danny Williams & Kevin McBride..
You can pick holes in my analysis or try to make your case for Lewis but you cannot take away the case that Lewis refused to fight those No1 contenders... you cannot say Lewis beat Golota without stating that Golota was tranquilized in his dressing room only minutes before the opening belt, you cannot claim Lewis beat Tyson without stating that Tyson was "heavily sedated"... you cannot claim Lewis beat Morrison without saying Morrison was HIV... IMO there is no fighter in history whose resume can be called into question as Lewis can

Ziggy Stardust
01-04-2010, 04:25 PM
Tell him we don't give a ****e about his lists.....he aint a historian, he is a journalist

I understand you're new but please do NOT disrespect hhascup. Take all the shots you want at Sugar but leave Harry out of it please.

Poet

JAB5239
01-04-2010, 04:31 PM
your entitled to your opinion which i am not knocking, however IMO i rate Berts choice above your choice.. Bert had Holmes at No11 and you say Holmes in your opinion would beat Dempsey.. i am cool with that.. However i have made my case a few times on this forum against Lewis, sorry i dont agree with your statement that Lewis vs Tunney is not debatable or that he cleaned-out a division.

Tunney was the first ever scientific boxer and a master craftsman who twice beat the great Jack Dempsey.. i have both their fights and Dempsey is as relentless in his aggresion as a prime Mike Tyson yet cannot trap the fleet footed Tunney.. Lewis with his "Two-Left-Feet" would have zero chance.. Tunney could also hit quite a bit with 48 of his 66 wins coming by KO.. Lewis would be knackered after 8rds and IMO Tunney would knock him out.. journeymen like McCall & Rahman poleaxed Lewis so a guy of the calibre of Tunney also has a great chance... i cannot go along with the case that Lewis is 4ins taller and 35lbs heavier.. IMO that would be a massive hinderence to him..

you say Lewis cleaned out a division.. i could go on all night about that quote.. so in a nutshell... Lewis was given the WBC belt in 1992 and retired 10yrs later.. during those 10yrs Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Mercer, Wlad Klitschko, Hide, Sanders, Bowe, Tyson all held versions or undisputed titles yet Lewis never faced them, Lewis won the undisputed title by a very desputed decision from Evander Holyfield in 1999 with 43 of the 48 ringside reporters having Holyfield the clear winner, Lewis then refused to fight the No1 contenders so was stripped of every belt, WBA for refusing to fight John Ruiz, IBF for refusing to fight Chris Byrd, WBC for refusing Vitali Klitschko.. now which ever way you look at it, you cannot dissagree that Lewis did not as you claim "Clean out the division".. as for beating every man he ever faced.. Lewis only ever faced 2 fighters who was at the top of their game, Rahman & McCall who both poleaxed him yet both are not elite level fighters.. the other fighters Lewis fought during that time was all on the slide or Class D fighters, Botha, Akinwande, Jackson, Grant, Butler, Fortune, Mavrovik, Morrison, Tucker, Bruno and when Lewis beat Tyson it was a shell of the former ATG he beat.. that Tyson was also beaten by Danny Williams & Kevin McBride..
You can pick holes in my analysis or try to make your case for Lewis but you cannot take away the case that Lewis refused to fight those No1 contenders... you cannot say Lewis beat Golota without stating that Golota was tranquilized in his dressing room only minutes before the opening belt, you cannot claim Lewis beat Tyson without stating that Tyson was "heavily sedated"... you cannot claim Lewis beat Morrison without saying Morrison was HIV... IMO there is no fighter in history whose resume can be called into question as Lewis can

I'll be back to respond after work, sonny.

hhascup
01-04-2010, 06:14 PM
I understand you're new but please do NOT disrespect hhascup. Take all the shots you want at Sugar but leave Harry out of it please.

Poet

Thanks Poet!

Just to let you know, I was just elected the President of the New Jersey Association of USA Boxing. Now I am the President of that organization, as well as the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame for 24 years, the New Jersey Diamond Gloves for almost as long (Plus the Historian of both Organizations for almost 30 years) and I am also the President of the North Jersey Majors Met League (Baseball).

Besides that I am on the International Boxing Hall of Fame selection Committee for both the modern and old-timers section. I am proud of that as all the boxers that were selected this year in both categories, 3 in each, I voted for.

Thanks again, Henry Hascup

GameGod
01-04-2010, 06:29 PM
terrible list....Bert Sugar is only a journalist, he's about as credible as Brian Kenny.....Larry Holmes?? Lennox Lewis???....and Joe Louis ahead of Ali???? c'mon who are you kidding

I agree that Sugar's lists are generally pretty bad, but your comment is flawed. Larry Holmes and Lewis would not necessarily make the Top 10 (though Lewis makes mine). Joe Louis can certainly be said to be better than Ali - many people have him at #1.

My real problem with the list is the lack of Mike Tyson in the place of, perhaps, Gene Tunney. Tunney is unquestionably a good fighter, but not really in the class of the prime Tyson - unless, of course, you are looking at fighters by the career, not by the prime.

JAB5239
01-05-2010, 03:08 AM
your entitled to your opinion which i am not knocking, however IMO i rate Berts choice above your choice.. Bert had Holmes at No11 and you say Holmes in your opinion would beat Dempsey.. i am cool with that.. However i have made my case a few times on this forum against Lewis, sorry i dont agree with your statement that Lewis vs Tunney is not debatable or that he cleaned-out a division.

Im not going to change your mind on Lewis, but as you said, we're both entitled to our opinions.

Tunney was the first ever scientific boxer and a master craftsman who twice beat the great Jack Dempsey.. i have both their fights and Dempsey is as relentless in his aggresion as a prime Mike Tyson yet cannot trap the fleet footed Tunney..

Dempsey hadn't fought in 3 years and just wasn't the same fighter for the duration of their fights. He had him moments in spurts. I also disagree Tunney was the first scientific fighter. Joe Gans, Benny Leonard and Jack Johnson come to mind.

Lewis with his "Two-Left-Feet" would have zero chance.. Tunney could also hit quite a bit with 48 of his 66 wins coming by KO.. Lewis would be knackered after 8rds and IMO Tunney would knock him out.. journeymen like McCall & Rahman poleaxed Lewis so a guy of the calibre of Tunney also has a great chance... i cannot go along with the case that Lewis is 4ins taller and 35lbs heavier.. IMO that would be a massive hinderence to him..

I disagree again, but this is and will be total guesswork by both of us. I will ask though, how many of Tunneys came at heavyweight against the caliber of fighter Lewis was?

you say Lewis cleaned out a division.. i could go on all night about that quote.. so in a nutshell... Lewis was given the WBC belt in 1992 and retired 10yrs later.. during those 10yrs Holmes, Foreman, Moorer, Mercer, Wlad Klitschko, Hide, Sanders, Bowe, Tyson all held versions or undisputed titles yet Lewis never faced them, Lewis won the undisputed title by a very desputed decision from Evander Holyfield in 1999 with 43 of the 48 ringside reporters having Holyfield the clear winner,

Holmes never had a belt again while Lewis was around. Foreman wanted no part of him. Bowe dumped his belt in the trash. Tyson paid him step aside money. Sanders never really put himself into a position to fight Lewis until he beat Wlad and was than stopped by V. Hide was no longer a factor after losing to V. Wlad was ko'd by both Brewster and Sanders. He fought Mercer and Vitaly. And if the second Holy fight was an injustice, the first fight was a travesty.

Lewis then refused to fight the No1 contenders so was stripped of every belt, WBA for refusing to fight John Ruiz, IBF for refusing to fight Chris Byrd, WBC for refusing Vitali Klitschko.. now which ever way you look at it, you cannot dissagree that Lewis did not as you claim "Clean out the division".. as for beating every man he ever faced.. Lewis only ever faced 2 fighters who was at the top of their game, Rahman & McCall who both poleaxed him yet both are not elite level fighters.. the other fighters Lewis fought during that time was all on the slide or Class D fighters, Botha, Akinwande, Jackson, Grant, Butler, Fortune, Mavrovik, Morrison, Tucker, Bruno and when Lewis beat Tyson it was a shell of the former ATG he beat.. that Tyson was also beaten by Danny Williams & Kevin McBride..

I may have jumped the gun by saying he cleaned out the division. He could have fought Byrd and Ruiz, but there was no public demand for it as both were looked at as easy victories for Lewis. Rahman and McCall may not have been elite, but they were both solid contenders. Tucker, Bruno, Morrison all held belts before and were looked at as dangerous. Akinwande was a number 1 contender I believe (not sure) and Im pretty sure Mavrovic was highly ranked by the WBC at the time. As for the others....every champion has some gimme's in there.

You can pick holes in my analysis or try to make your case for Lewis but you cannot take away the case that Lewis refused to fight those No1 contenders... you cannot say Lewis beat Golota without stating that Golota was tranquilized in his dressing room only minutes before the opening belt, you cannot claim Lewis beat Tyson without stating that Tyson was "heavily sedated"... you cannot claim Lewis beat Morrison without saying Morrison was HIV... IMO there is no fighter in history whose resume can be called into question as Lewis can

Golota was given a cortisone shot, not a tranquilizer. I have yet to see any reliable proof that Tyson was "heavily sedated", and Morrison didn't test positive for HIV until after the Lewis fight.

I respect most of your opinions Sonny, but Im not sure we're going to find any common ground on this one. Peace.

LeeVanCleef
01-05-2010, 03:26 AM
Thanks Poet!

Just to let you know, I was just elected the President of the New Jersey Association of USA Boxing. Now I am the President of that organization, as well as the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame for 24 years, the New Jersey Diamond Gloves for almost as long (Plus the Historian of both Organizations for almost 30 years) and I am also the President of the North Jersey Majors Met League (Baseball).

Besides that I am on the International Boxing Hall of Fame selection Committee for both the modern and old-timers section. I am proud of that as all the boxers that were selected this year in both categories, 3 in each, I voted for.

Thanks again, Henry Hascup

Nice to see you in this thread, Sir! :cool3:

BTW, congratulations on your election, Mr. President!

sonnyboyx2
01-05-2010, 05:10 AM
Golota was given a cortisone shot, not a tranquilizer. I have yet to see any reliable proof that Tyson was "heavily sedated", and Morrison didn't test positive for HIV until after the Lewis fight.

I respect most of your opinions Sonny, but Im not sure we're going to find any common ground on this one. Peace.

i have covered the Lennox Lewis topic on a few occasions in the past and my views are well known.. it is pointless me going in depth into it again, simply because it annoys quite a few people who see him in the same light as yourself and completely ignore his pitfalls and opportunist career moves.... To be the best you have to fight the best!
Lennox i am afraid IMO never done that .

The Iron Man
01-05-2010, 05:32 AM
Thanks Poet!

Just to let you know, I was just elected the President of the New Jersey Association of USA Boxing. Now I am the President of that organization, as well as the New Jersey Boxing Hall of Fame for 24 years, the New Jersey Diamond Gloves for almost as long (Plus the Historian of both Organizations for almost 30 years) and I am also the President of the North Jersey Majors Met League (Baseball).

Besides that I am on the International Boxing Hall of Fame selection Committee for both the modern and old-timers section. I am proud of that as all the boxers that were selected this year in both categories, 3 in each, I voted for.

Thanks again, Henry Hascup

Very impressive!. Good to see you back posting here aswell!


Just for comparison, here is Reg Gutteridges top 10 list's:

First 50 Years

Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney
Jack Dempsey
James J. Jeffries
Bob Fitzsimmons
James J. Corbett
John L. Sullivan
Tommy Burns
Max Schmeling
Max Baer

Last 50 Years

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Rocky Maricano
Mike Tyson
George Foreman
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Joe Frazier
Jersey Joe Waltott
Ezzard Charles

GJC
01-06-2010, 07:48 PM
Sonny what is the rough date of this list?
Also has it been gleaned from his top 100 pfp fighters? I only ask that because if so then it will skew the list a bit, re Charles and Tunney.
Great respect for Tunney but he had what 3 fights as a heavy?

GJC
01-06-2010, 07:52 PM
Here's the 2 lists that Bert Sugar listed that I saw:

<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u1:WordDocument> <u1:View>Normal</u1:View> <u1:Zoom>0</u1:Zoom> <w :D oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u1:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Sugar's top 10 heavyweights

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Dempsey
4. Jack Johnson
5. Gene Tunney
6. Rocky Marciano
7. Ezzard Charles
8. George Foreman
9. Joe Frazier
10. Larry Holmes
Source: "Ringside: The Ten Greatest Heavyweights," ESPN Classic


<!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <u2:WordDocument> <u2:View>Normal</u2:View> <u2:Zoom>0</u2:Zoom> <w :D oNotOptimizeForBrowser/> </u2:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]-->Bert Sugar, 1991

1.Jack Dempsey
2.Joe Louis
3.Muhammad Ali
4.Jack Johnson
5.Gene Tunney
6.Rocky Marciano
7.Joe Frazier
8.Larry Holmes
9.Sonny Liston
10.Mike Tyson<o></o>

I am suppose to be with him this coming Sunday in New York at the Ring 8 Christmas Party at Russo's on the Bay.
Sort of begs the question, who did Dempsey and Louis fight between the publication of the two lists to alter their standings?

hhascup
01-06-2010, 11:46 PM
Sort of begs the question, who did Dempsey and Louis fight between the publication of the two lists to alter their standings?


I had the same question, so I asked Bert and he said he learned listen to what other had to say. Meaning that he took the opinions of people that knew what they were talking about, like old time trainers, historians, etc.

I most likely will see him this Sunday. A few years ago he came with a book on the New York Golden Gloves and I said to him, how much are they. He said do you want one, and I said yes, how much are they. He said, for what you do for boxing, don't be silly, it's no charge for you. A few days later I received one through the mail.