View Full Version : Look at the physical shape the heavyweights were in during the 70's


them_apples
12-27-2009, 04:42 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zW287BSApo

these guys all took there jobs seriously. Unlike todays fat bums

Even Vitali looks soft as hell compared to these guys.

remember to click HQ

Third Degree MM
12-27-2009, 04:47 AM
Arreola and Toney would knock them out

GoogleMe
12-27-2009, 05:52 AM
Ken Norton looks like a beast!

Davros?
12-27-2009, 08:24 AM
Norton always looked in great shape.

boxing_great
12-27-2009, 09:07 AM
**** that george foreman is a monster hitter, he must be the hardest hitting heavyweight ever.

bojangles1987
12-27-2009, 09:22 AM
Big part of the decline. Heavyweights then had to be in great shape to even crack the top ten. These days lazy fat guys like Arreola can walk into a ring and end up with a title shot. Heavyweights today outside the Klitschkos and David Haye are all fat.

Notice how Eddie Chambers turned his career around this year? He also got into shape this year.

TheGreatA
12-27-2009, 11:26 AM
It doesn't even have to be the 70's. Today's heavyweights simply do not have the ambition of their predecessors. The current practise is to build an undefeated record and then cash in against one of the Klitschko brothers without putting up much of an effort. Atleast that's how I see it.

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deezdominates
12-27-2009, 11:42 AM
We can thank the media, the association, and the league for the decline

NICE GUY
12-27-2009, 02:46 PM
The physical fitness and athleticism of today's heavyweights are a lot worse than most of the past. It's a shame how some of the top contenders, right now, are basically overweight.

bklynboy
12-27-2009, 03:24 PM
The physical fitness and athleticism of today's heavyweights are a lot worse than most of the past. It's a shame how some of the top contenders, right now, are basically overweight.

Absolutely. Extra weight has an advantage for linemen but has few benefits for boxers. A perfectly timed punch for a 210 pound guy who "put on" 20 pounds of fat -- and is now 230 -- should do more damage. But the extra 20 pounds of fat will cut down on endurance, his ability to avoid punches and to close the gap. I don't know why people think you need to put on weight to match the Ks and other big heavyweights. Sonny Liston and George Foreman weighed 20-40 pounds less and easily had the power to KO either Vitaly or Wladimir.

Not to mention South African golf pros.

DeepSleep
12-27-2009, 06:30 PM
The athletes that used to go into boxing are playing football and basketball. Boxing gets the elite athletes in the smaller weight classes because those people are too small to play any other sport. The athletic 6'3" 200lb kids are playing football not going to the boxing gym, the smaller weight classes still get elite talent so we still get great fighters down at those weight classes.

bklynboy
12-27-2009, 07:01 PM
The athletes that used to go into boxing are playing football and basketball. Boxing gets the elite athletes in the smaller weight classes because those people are too small to play any other sport. The athletic 6'3" 200lb kids are playing football not going to the boxing gym, the smaller weight classes still get elite talent so we still get great fighters down at those weight classes.


ESPN has an article where this Florida businessman is trying get ex-college football players who didn't get into the NFL to turn to boxing. It seems a little late to start boxing but I wish him well.

http://insider.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/insider/news/story?id=4744548

Davros?
12-28-2009, 06:50 AM
The athletes that used to go into boxing are playing football and basketball. Boxing gets the elite athletes in the smaller weight classes because those people are too small to play any other sport. The athletic 6'3" 200lb kids are playing football not going to the boxing gym, the smaller weight classes still get elite talent so we still get great fighters down at those weight classes.

True in America, If you want to watch old school heavyweight fights you have to watch the cruiserweight division. Mormeck vs Bell 1 and 2, Mormeck vs Braithwaite, Haye vs Mormeck, Adamek vs Cunningham, Toney vs Jirov.

sonnyboyx2
12-28-2009, 07:52 AM
Absolutely. Extra weight has an advantage for linemen but has few benefits for boxers. A perfectly timed punch for a 210 pound guy who "put on" 20 pounds of fat -- and is now 230 -- should do more damage. But the extra 20 pounds of fat will cut down on endurance, his ability to avoid punches and to close the gap. I don't know why people think you need to put on weight to match the Ks and other big heavyweights. Sonny Liston and George Foreman weighed 20-40 pounds less and easily had the power to KO either Vitaly or Wladimir.

Not to mention South African golf pros.

i have said for a long time on this forum that "Weight is a handicap".. take as an example Lennox Lewis, when Lewis fought at 225lbs he was a far better fighter than when he fought at 245+lbs

GJC
12-28-2009, 01:01 PM
There does seem to be school of thought that height and weight equals power of punch. Punching power is timing in my opinion, think you can learn to make the most of what you have but to a point you are born with punching power. Likewise balance and a good chin.
Think what we have at the moment in the heavyweight ranks is a paraphrase of the old truism a good big un beats a good little un, in that a bad big un will beat a bad little un.

bklynboy
12-28-2009, 01:54 PM
There does seem to be school of thought that height and weight equals power of punch. Punching power is timing in my opinion, think you can learn to make the most of what you have but to a point you are born with punching power. Likewise balance and a good chin.
Think what we have at the moment in the heavyweight ranks is a paraphrase of the old truism a good big un beats a good little un, in that a bad big un will beat a bad little un.

Absolutely. People think weight automatically equalls power.

All sports have examples of smaller guys having as much power, if not more, than big guys. Adding muscle will not make a pitcher throw harder. There were a lot of skinny pitchers who barely tipped the scales at 160-170 who threw harder than guys weighing 50 pounds more.

There was this skinny guy in golf -- also weighing about 160 -- who hit balls further than anyone. Tiger Woods has put on weight as he got older but he isn't hitting the ball any further.

geribeetus
12-28-2009, 10:05 PM
there's no excuse for showing up looking like arreola, but there's always been heavyweights in imperfect shape. i remember wepner looked blubbery as hell against ali. joe frazier never came close to a six pack. you could tell when joe bobbed under a punch he had a little meat on him. tim witherspoon and tony tubbs never looked great from what i remember. same with ray mercer. tommy morrison always had moobs. lennox lewis got pretty soft in his late 20s, early 30s. larry holmes had a good bit of fat on him in his early 30s. the klitschkos will never get credit because of a few fat guys in their division and it's pretty ridiculous.

nomadman
12-28-2009, 10:56 PM
A lot of the Eastern European fighters might not be ripped to the bone, but they're not in that bad a condition, really. Guys like Chagaev, Ibragimov, Boytsov and Povetkin seem no worse, conditioning-wise, to many top heavyweights of the past. It's the Americans who seem to be letting the side down mostly (plus guys like Solis and Peter). The state some of those guys come into the ring with is sickening. I'm looking at you Arreola.

nomadman
12-28-2009, 11:06 PM
The athletes that used to go into boxing are playing football and basketball. Boxing gets the elite athletes in the smaller weight classes because those people are too small to play any other sport. The athletic 6'3" 200lb kids are playing football not going to the boxing gym, the smaller weight classes still get elite talent so we still get great fighters down at those weight classes.

Sorry, I've always thought that theory is a load of hooey. Being a good athlete doesn't equal being a good fighter. A fighter is determined by upbringing and culture. America just doesn't have as many run-down, dirt-poor neighbourhoods as the former-Soviet states, hence your lack of decent HW fighters.

JAB5239
12-29-2009, 01:36 AM
A lot of the Eastern European fighters might not be ripped to the bone, but they're not in that bad a condition, really. Guys like Chagaev, Ibragimov, Boytsov and Povetkin seem no worse, conditioning-wise, to many top heavyweights of the past. It's the Americans who seem to be letting the side down mostly (plus guys like Solis and Peter). The state some of those guys come into the ring with is sickening. I'm looking at you Arreola.

I disagree completely. These guys throw hardly any punches compared to the top fighters of the past and they fight fighters who throw hardly any punches. To top that off they're pretty much spent after 7 or 8 rounds. Can you imagine them having to fight a fight where they were forced to throw twice as many punches as they normally did? Can you imagine them defending against a guy like Frazier or Marciano who throws non stop for 15 rounds? I can, and its not a pretty thought.

Spartacus Sully
12-29-2009, 01:48 AM
Sorry, I've always thought that theory is a load of hooey. Being a good athlete doesn't equal being a good fighter. A fighter is determined by upbringing and culture. America just doesn't have as many run-down, dirt-poor neighbourhoods as the former-Soviet states, hence your lack of decent HW fighters.

you dont need to be raised in a dirt poor neighbor hood you just need to be raised right, with the mind set that you can do anything you want if you work hard enough.

and yes alot of kids in America grow up with asperiations of football or basketball. while your probably not going to succeed and make a pro career out of it, it does get you to college.

JAB5239
12-29-2009, 01:58 AM
Sorry, I've always thought that theory is a load of hooey. Being a good athlete doesn't equal being a good fighter. A fighter is determined by upbringing and culture. America just doesn't have as many run-down, dirt-poor neighbourhoods as the former-Soviet states, hence your lack of decent HW fighters.

Than what made Muhammad Ali so tough? He was raised middle class and never got into fights when he was growing up, now he's considered by many to be the greatest heavyweight ever.

nomadman
12-29-2009, 06:59 AM
Than what made Muhammad Ali so tough? He was raised middle class and never got into fights when he was growing up, now he's considered by many to be the greatest heavyweight ever.

There are always exceptions, but as a general rule many of the best boxers didn't exactly have the nicest of upbringings. Boxing, more than any other sport I can think of, relies on mental toughness, and that sort of toughness is most frequently cultivated in hardship and poverty. It takes a certain type of person to become a professional boxer, and you're more likely nowadays to find that type of person outside of the States.

Takamura!!!
12-29-2009, 09:20 AM
**** that george foreman is a monster hitter, he must be the hardest hitting heavyweight ever.

Ernie shavers was the hardest hitting in my opinion:boxing:

Yeah, today so many heavyweights look flabby compared to back then

http://www.boxingcraze.com/imagesFighters/Norton_Ken.jpg

http://assets.sbnation.com/imported_assets/5028/p1_toney_0320_medium.jpg

Bit of a downgrade eh?

GJC
12-29-2009, 01:10 PM
Sorry, I've always thought that theory is a load of hooey. Being a good athlete doesn't equal being a good fighter. A fighter is determined by upbringing and culture. America just doesn't have as many run-down, dirt-poor neighbourhoods as the former-Soviet states, hence your lack of decent HW fighters.

No I think there is something in that theory and it backs up your point. Boxing has traditionally been a window to the less advantaged which is why there are far far fewer Jewish, Italian and Irish fighters these days than there were in the past as they have generally prospered and moved out of the ghettos etc. Now being English I'm not in the best position to say for sure but maybe American Football and Basketball are less segregated than they were in the past and so giving coloured kids more opportunities to compete?
I realise that boxing didn't cover itself in glory re equality but there was always opportunities for coloured fighters to earn money just not as many opportunities as white fighters.
I know that a lot of kids get schoolarships based on their skill at American football.
Given the choice would you rather play baseball American football or box?
I know in Egland there were lots of boxing gyms when I was a kid and now there are very few I would imagine the same is in America?

sonnyboyx2
12-29-2009, 01:52 PM
I disagree completely. These guys throw hardly any punches compared to the top fighters of the past and they fight fighters who throw hardly any punches. To top that off they're pretty much spent after 7 or 8 rounds. Can you imagine them having to fight a fight where they were forced to throw twice as many punches as they normally did? Can you imagine them defending against a guy like Frazier or Marciano who throws non stop for 15 rounds? I can, and its not a pretty thought.

100% correct.. it is laughable to think that Heavyweights of the last 15yrs could compete with the likes of Frazier & Marciano.. yet there is literally 100s of members who claim Vitali, Lewis, Haye, Wlad would completely destroy Joe Frazier within 2rds, they even claim that those same 4 would beat Muhammad Ali at least 4 times out of 10 fights should they have ever fought, they also claim they would demolish the 73 version of George Foreman because they are taller and weigh more.. :pat: the same people will avoid this Topic

Ziggy Stardust
12-29-2009, 02:04 PM
No I think there is something in that theory and it backs up your point. Boxing has traditionally been a window to the less advantaged which is why there are far far fewer Jewish, Italian and Irish fighters these days than there were in the past as they have generally prospered and moved out of the ghettos etc. Now being English I'm not in the best position to say for sure but maybe American Football and Basketball are less segregated than they were in the past and so giving coloured kids more opportunities to compete?
I realise that boxing didn't cover itself in glory re equality but there was always opportunities for coloured fighters to earn money just not as many opportunities as white fighters.
I know that a lot of kids get schoolarships based on their skill at American football.
Given the choice would you rather play baseball American football or box?
I know in Egland there were lots of boxing gyms when I was a kid and now there are very few I would imagine the same is in America?

The major team sports in America integrated in the 1950s. The thing is, the NFL and NBA were not big money sports until the 1980s. Case in point, in 1972 a typical star NFL running back was making around $60,000 a year and that's a marquee position: Imagine what less glamorous players like linemen were making. Compared to that top boxers stood a good chance of making significantly more than that during that time frame so if someone was a superior athlete growing up and fit the body type of a Heavyweight fighter/football player/basketball player boxing would be seen as a lucrative possibility. In the 1980s the money in the NFL and NBA exploded with even seldom used reserves making $1,000,000 a year to do nothing. That makes boxing's potential payoff look MUCH less attractive. And with the fall off of boxing's popularity there's less money to be had for lower tier fighters which makes it even less attractive an option for a young athlete.

Poet

rockybalboa1
12-29-2009, 02:10 PM
The heavyweight division is a joke, today. There are a few good fighters but they wouldn't last with the heavyweights of other eras.

GJC
12-29-2009, 03:13 PM
The major team sports in America integrated in the 1950s. The thing is, the NFL and NBA were not big money sports until the 1980s. Case in point, in 1972 a typical star NFL running back was making around $60,000 a year and that's a marquee position: Imagine what less glamorous players like linemen were making. Compared to that top boxers stood a good chance of making significantly more than that during that time frame so if someone was a superior athlete growing up and fit the body type of a Heavyweight fighter/football player/basketball player boxing would be seen as a lucrative possibility. In the 1980s the money in the NFL and NBA exploded with even seldom used reserves making $1,000,000 a year to do nothing. That makes boxing's potential payoff look MUCH less attractive. And with the fall off of boxing's popularity there's less money to be had for lower tier fighters which makes it even less attractive an option for a young athlete.

Poet
Thankyou I must admit I didn't have too much knowledge as such to back up my theory lol. I have little knowledge of baseball,basketball and American football but have heard of Jackie Robinson re baseball and am I right in thinking the Harlem Globetrotters were a result of segregation within basketball?
Would the sporting schoolarships in colleges have an effect too?
I know in "soccer" a proper world wide sport ;) the money has exploded in the last 10 years, in the 60's they still had a maximum wage. So after the war when even the less glamourous clubs used to get 50-70,000 people through the turnstiles the owners knew what their wage bill was every week and generally took the lions share of money out of the game. The certainly didn't spend it on the stadiums!.
Generally the footballers earned twice the average wage for a career that lasted 15 years. We now have gone to the other extreme where very average players can earn 50'000 a week. One positive on the old days was a team's star player generally saw out their career at their home club as there was zero financial benefit to moving to a bigger club which meant that the league was a little more level.

DeepSleep
12-29-2009, 03:55 PM
The major team sports in America integrated in the 1950s. The thing is, the NFL and NBA were not big money sports until the 1980s. Case in point, in 1972 a typical star NFL running back was making around $60,000 a year and that's a marquee position: Imagine what less glamorous players like linemen were making. Compared to that top boxers stood a good chance of making significantly more than that during that time frame so if someone was a superior athlete growing up and fit the body type of a Heavyweight fighter/football player/basketball player boxing would be seen as a lucrative possibility. In the 1980s the money in the NFL and NBA exploded with even seldom used reserves making $1,000,000 a year to do nothing. That makes boxing's potential payoff look MUCH less attractive. And with the fall off of boxing's popularity there's less money to be had for lower tier fighters which makes it even less attractive an option for a young athlete.

Poet

Hit the nail on the head, for example Brandon Jacobs(Starting Running back for the Giants for the non-NFL fans on here) was 30 - 0 as an amateur boxer, yet he gave up boxing for football even though he didn't begin at a big name Division 1 college program. Now he just signed this year a 4 year $25 Million dollar contract with the giants. He is getting on average $6.25 Million a year, significantly higher than any Heavyweight boxer makes today through boxing other than perhaps one of the Klitsckho Bros. and he isn't even one of the best at his position.

Back in the day the great big athletes turned into boxers:
Fastforward to today:

Vernon Gholston NFL LOLB/DE:
http://blogg.visir.is/nfl/files/2008/04/golst.jpg

vs.

Arguably Top American Heavyweight Eddie Chambers:
http://bradydillsworth.com/Blog_Images/berlinboxing_021.jpg

Luckily they only poach the Heavyweights from us; we still get to keep just about all the athletes from LHW down to Minimumweight.

them_apples
12-29-2009, 04:05 PM
I disagree completely. These guys throw hardly any punches compared to the top fighters of the past and they fight fighters who throw hardly any punches. To top that off they're pretty much spent after 7 or 8 rounds. Can you imagine them having to fight a fight where they were forced to throw twice as many punches as they normally did? Can you imagine them defending against a guy like Frazier or Marciano who throws non stop for 15 rounds? I can, and its not a pretty thought.

co sign, there are a lot of factors. Even in a one sided fight, they might be able to throw a lot of punches without taking anything back. If they are eating shots, moving, and throwing leather back, then we would see an exhausted boxer.

Guys like Norton, Frazier Ali etc, fought at a very high energy consumption rate something the stationary heavies don't do any more.

If they fought like George Foreman they would be panting after 2 rounds.

them_apples
12-29-2009, 04:08 PM
Than what made Muhammad Ali so tough? He was raised middle class and never got into fights when he was growing up, now he's considered by many to be the greatest heavyweight ever.

he didn't really have a nice upbringing either. If I recall, his reason to start boxing was because of his stolen bike no? Times back then kids just fought more anyways. Even in Canada my dad could always recall which kids were always scrapping and causing trouble.

It's nowadays, everyone seems to be so soft. They rely on intimidation and friends. It's a very easy generation to be honest.

them_apples
12-29-2009, 04:12 PM
there's no excuse for showing up looking like arreola, but there's always been heavyweights in imperfect shape. i remember wepner looked blubbery as hell against ali. joe frazier never came close to a six pack. you could tell when joe bobbed under a punch he had a little meat on him. tim witherspoon and tony tubbs never looked great from what i remember. same with ray mercer. tommy morrison always had moobs. lennox lewis got pretty soft in his late 20s, early 30s. larry holmes had a good bit of fat on him in his early 30s. the klitschkos will never get credit because of a few fat guys in their division and it's pretty ridiculous.

Joe in his prime was only 204 lbs, he didn't have much meat on him. You wuold be suprised how light these heavyweights can get.

areolla has a 77" reach and is 6'3. If he was truly cut he would probably fight at 210.

Foreman was 218-224 in his prime.

He was 260 in his comeback, and he wasn't nearly as soft as Aereolla.

Toney was a middleweight in his prime, so he probably came in at 170 lbs on fight night. He went all the way up to 230+ at HW. He looked like the softies of today.

donkim
12-29-2009, 05:16 PM
he didn't really have a nice upbringing either. If I recall, his reason to start boxing was because of his stolen bike no?

Well any kid can get their bike stolen.It doesn't necessarily mean that it was a rough area that he grew up in.


When your black and not dirt poor,you're usually regarded as middle class.If Ali was white,he and his family would be regarded as a simple working class family.


I have never heard of a middle class family who's occupations include cleaning houses and painting billboards for a living.

The_Demon
12-29-2009, 07:24 PM
some people on here still claim the HW division is no better or worse than its ever been,what a load of s*it!

back in the 70's it meant something too be a contender,nowadays it means nothing,apart from getting jabbed by a klitschko for a few rounds and getting payed enough too not even bother about fighting back,its f*cking pathetic

shogunn
12-30-2009, 01:43 AM
sad indeed. With all of today advancement in nutrition and physical fitness, there shouldnt be any excuses for ANY overweight boxers. Just look at everything below their classes. Aaerola telling us he can drink beer because michael phelps smoked weed (after the olympics mind you) makes heavyweight boxing in America almost a joke

I think Tor Hamer in a few years can give American heavyweight boxing some credibility again.

them_apples
12-30-2009, 04:48 AM
sad indeed. With all of today advancement in nutrition and physical fitness, there shouldnt be any excuses for ANY overweight boxers. Just look at everything below their classes. Aaerola telling us he can drink beer because michael phelps smoked weed (after the olympics mind you) makes heavyweight boxing in America almost a joke

I think Tor Hamer in a few years can give American heavyweight boxing some credibility again.

nothing replaces hard work.

Mikhnienko
12-31-2009, 08:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zW287BSApo

these guys all took there jobs seriously. Unlike todays fat bums

Even Vitali looks soft as hell compared to these guys.

remember to click HQ

Um, no.

Big part of the decline. Heavyweights then had to be in great shape to even crack the top ten. These days lazy fat guys like Arreola can walk into a ring and end up with a title shot. Heavyweights today outside the Klitschkos and David Haye are all fat.

Notice how Eddie Chambers turned his career around this year? He also got into shape this year.

Thanks to BALCO's Victor Conte who he and Ward are working with

I disagree completely. These guys throw hardly any punches compared to the top fighters of the past and they fight fighters who throw hardly any punches. To top that off they're pretty much spent after 7 or 8 rounds. Can you imagine them having to fight a fight where they were forced to throw twice as many punches as they normally did? Can you imagine them defending against a guy like Frazier or Marciano who throws non stop for 15 rounds? I can, and its not a pretty thought.

Cuz Vitali & Povetkin throwing 80+ punches a round on a regular basis wouldn't qualify right? Ibragimov and Boytsov throw alot too, quit talking out of your ass. I'd be shocked if you've even seen more the 2 fights from Boytsov, Ibragimov, or Povetkin.

Oh and i'm sure you'll bring up the Volodymyr - Ibragimov fight but again i wouldn't be suprised if that was the only Sultan fight you've seen. He was a very aggressive, high volume fighter until he hooked up with homo jeff mayweather, so thank him for that bull****.

Spartacus Sully
12-31-2009, 08:31 AM
Cuz Vitali & Povetkin throwing 80+ punches a round on a regular basis

perhaps you should take your own advice and


quit talking out of your ass.


unless you have some kind of proof that says otherwise? as ive found alot of stuff that says he dosnt average much more then 50-60 a round. as well as many other counts for other heavy weights showing not much more then 50-60 per round.

JAB5239
12-31-2009, 09:53 PM
Cuz Vitali & Povetkin throwing 80+ punches a round on a regular basis wouldn't qualify right? Ibragimov and Boytsov throw alot too, quit talking out of your ass. I'd be shocked if you've even seen more the 2 fights from Boytsov, Ibragimov, or Povetkin.

Neither Vitaly or Povetkin throw 80 punches a round on a regular basis. Have they done it before? Sure. Against and old out of shape Lewis Vitaly threw less than 75 a round and was exhausted by the time of the stoppage. How do you think he'd do in a 15 round fight against an Ali, Frazier or Marciano if he couldn't knock them out? Can you say TIMBER!!!?

Oh and i'm sure you'll bring up the Volodymyr - Ibragimov fight but again i wouldn't be suprised if that was the only Sultan fight you've seen. He was a very aggressive, high volume fighter until he hooked up with homo jeff mayweather, so thank him for that bull****.

I could care less about Volodymyr, whoever the hell he is. Are you trying to spell Wladimir, lol? I've seen Sultan fight a half dozen times or so and I can tell you for a fact that he would get murdered by the top heavyweights of the past. Wlad was the only fighter he fought that was decent and not shot, and Sultan had his worst performance by far. It was so bad that he hasn't fought since.

One more round
12-31-2009, 11:08 PM
I could care less about Volodymyr, whoever the hell he is. Are you trying to spell Wladimir, lol? I've seen Sultan fight a half dozen times or so and I can tell you for a fact that he would get murdered by the top heavyweights of the past. Wlad was the only fighter he fought that was decent and not shot, and Sultan had his worst performance by far. It was so bad that he hasn't fought since.

You tell him Jab :lol1:

them_apples
01-01-2010, 02:03 AM
I'd like to see them both pumping out 80 punches per round. It's easy to throw 80 punches at a punching bag, but slipping, moving and eating leather back is an entirely different story.

either way, it's BS, no heavyweight today has that kind of Workmate. lol

A lot of them are chinny to and can't go 12 rounds.

Mikhnienko
01-01-2010, 05:28 AM
perhaps you should take your own advice and



unless you have some kind of proof that says otherwise? as ive found alot of stuff that says he dosnt average much more then 50-60 a round. as well as many other counts for other heavy weights showing not much more then 50-60 per round.

Well vs Arreola and Johnson a 38 yr old Vitali averaged 80+ punches a round.

I'm not here to debate the exact number of fights where fighter X has throw 80 punches, but where you got this idea that Ali, Foreman, Norton etc threw 70+ punches for all 15 rounds is beyond me.


I could care less about Volodymyr, whoever the hell he is. Are you trying to spell Wladimir, lol? I've seen Sultan fight a half dozen times or so and I can tell you for a fact that he would get murdered by the top heavyweights of the past. Wlad was the only fighter he fought that was decent and not shot, and Sultan had his worst performance by far. It was so bad that he hasn't fought since.

I could already tell by your point of view on fighters but this certainly confirms that you're an American.

Volodymyr (***1042;***1086;***1083;***1086;***1076;***1080;***1084;***1080;***1088;) is Ukrainian
Wladimir is a German spelling of his Ukrainian name, the W pronounced as a V would be a pretty telling sign, if you weren't oblivious.

You tell him Jab :lol1:

re-read above genius

I'm not trying to say that Ibragimov would work over Foreman in a fight, but your claim that Vitali, Volodymyr, Povetkin etc are out of shape in comparison is absurd. Although this thread is probably 95% Americans so what else should i expect

JAB5239
01-01-2010, 06:45 AM
Well vs Arreola and Johnson a 38 yr old Vitali averaged 80+ punches a round.

I think we can all agree both Arreola and Johnson are a far cry from the top fighters of the 70's in both skills and endurance.

I'm not here to debate the exact number of fights where fighter X has throw 80 punches, but where you got this idea that Ali, Foreman, Norton etc threw 70+ punches for all 15 rounds is beyond me.

I don't recall anybody saying they did. But outside of Foreman all could apply and withstand pressure for 15 rounds against other skilled fighters. Can you honestly tell me Vitaly wasn't gassed against Lewis after what, 6 rounds? Thats really the only top notch fighter he fought and Lennox was out of shape himself. It was the only war he was in and he was exhausted. I just can't see where you would get the idea that his stamina is comparable to top fighters from other era's who fought 15 hard rounds against other skilled fighters.


I could already tell by your point of view on fighters but this certainly confirms that you're an American.

And what would that have to do with anything? Im as objective as they come, I just call it like I see it.

Volodymyr (***1042;***1086;***1083;***1086;***1076;***1080;***1084;***1080;***1088;) is Ukrainian
Wladimir is a German spelling of his Ukrainian name, the W pronounced as a V would be a pretty telling sign, if you weren't oblivious.

I appreciate the language lesson, but to the entire world its spelled Wladimir.

re-read above genius

I'm not trying to say that Ibragimov would work over Foreman in a fight, but your claim that Vitali, Volodymyr, Povetkin etc are out of shape in comparison is absurd. Although this thread is probably 95% Americans so what else should i expect

How is absurd when they fight guys who are sucking wing themselves after 5 or 6 rounds. Who are the fighters they fought who were skilled and in shape? Lewis? Sam Peter? Ray Austin? Who? Wlad gassed against Puritty, Brewster and was holding on for dear life against Peter. Im sorry but nobody is gonna confuse those guys with top fighters from better era's. Povetkin hasn't fought anybody and I've already gone over Vitaly. What exactly are you basing your argument on?

dog1dog2
01-01-2010, 10:30 AM
there's no excuse for showing up looking like arreola, but there's always been heavyweights in imperfect shape. i remember wepner looked blubbery as hell against ali. joe frazier never came close to a six pack. you could tell when joe bobbed under a punch he had a little meat on him. tim witherspoon and tony tubbs never looked great from what i remember. same with ray mercer. tommy morrison always had moobs. lennox lewis got pretty soft in his late 20s, early 30s. larry holmes had a good bit of fat on him in his early 30s. the klitschkos will never get credit because of a few fat guys in their division and it's pretty ridiculous.Not exactly what point you were trying to make here....seems like you inadvertently countered your own point and solidified what the OP was driving at:

Joe Frazier- Maybe not shredded, but usually more or less pretty svelte.
Tim Witherspoon- Fought exactly 1 fight in the "70's"- at a trim 197.
Tony Tubbs- Did not fight professionally in the 70's
Ray Mercer- Did not fight professionally in the 70's
Tommy Morrison- Did not fight professionally in the 70's
Lennox Lewis- Did not fight professionally in the 70's
Larry Holmes- Was clearly in his best shape during the 70's

Mikhnienko
01-01-2010, 12:33 PM
How is absurd when they fight guys who are sucking wing themselves after 5 or 6 rounds. Who are the fighters they fought who were skilled and in shape? Lewis? Sam Peter? Ray Austin? Who? Wlad gassed against Puritty, Brewster and was holding on for dear life against Peter. Im sorry but nobody is gonna confuse those guys with top fighters from better era's. Povetkin hasn't fought anybody and I've already gone over Vitaly. What exactly are you basing your argument on?

Absurd argument?

Using your logic then, any amateur fighter used to 3 or 4 rounds would never be able to compete against a pro and is inferior due to their lesser conditioning.

Clearly not the case, They improve their conditioning and adapt.

Following that same train of thought i guess that the 70's era of god like fighters are extremely inferior to the guys who fought 1890's - 1920. Since guys like Fitz, Ketchel, Choynski, Jeanette, etc who fought 20, 30, 40 rounds must undoubtedly be better, right?

Would you automatically write off Toney, Jones, Mcclellan, from being able to compete against Monzon or Hagler since they only have experience going 12 rounds?

You get my point......

Ziggy Stardust
01-01-2010, 12:39 PM
Absurd argument?

Using your logic then, any amateur fighter used to 3 or 4 rounds would never be able to compete against a pro and is inferior due to their lesser conditioning.

Clearly not the case, They improve their conditioning and adapt.

Following that same train of thought i guess that the 70's era of god like fighters are extremely inferior to the guys who fought 1890's - 1920. Since guys like Fitz, Ketchel, Choynski, Jeanette, etc who fought 20, 30, 40 rounds must undoubtedly be better, right?

Would you automatically write off Toney, Jones, Mcclellan, from being able to compete against Monzon or Hagler since they only have experience going 12 rounds?

You get my point......

Completely missing the point. Regardless of whether they're accustomed to going 15 or 12 rounds they're STILL sucking air after 5 or 6 rounds let alone 12. If they're gassing inside the 12 round limit they're schedualed for what makes you think they're going to do better in an even longer fight?

Poet

JAB5239
01-02-2010, 12:11 AM
Completely missing the point. Regardless of whether they're accustomed to going 15 or 12 rounds they're STILL sucking air after 5 or 6 rounds let alone 12. If they're gassing inside the 12 round limit they're schedualed for what makes you think they're going to do better in an even longer fight?

Poet

Thank you, this is exactly what I was talking about. He knows it too, he just can't bare to admit it.