I know but who do you think has ?

ase on hellbound.... more than held his own, ****ted on em.

Papa doc..

I think Jay-z actually had the better verses on Renegade. Also, I think Sticky Fingaz had the better showing on Remember me?

I agree, i do not think em "killed him on his own ****"

I made a thread a while back where I broke down the verses on the songs. The only thing that eminem had going for him over jay was multis. But as far as the actual lyrics, what they were saying, the logic behind what they were saying, I think Jay-z had the better verse.

I made a thread a while back where I broke down the verses on the songs. The only thing that eminem had going for him over jay was multis. But as far as the actual lyrics, what they were saying, the logic behind what they were saying, I think Jay-z had the better verse.

There were 2 verses though.

I think Eminem dominated the first round and Jay took the second.

Royce Da 5'9 murdered Em on his own **** a couple of times like the original Renegade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cqzEILqCL8

Jay > Em..

I think Jay took both rounds on renegades. And, yeah, Jay-z > Eminem. But then again, that isn't a knock on Eminem as Jay-z is possibly the greatest rapper ever.

Juice >>>> Em..

Masta ace >>>>>em...but hahahahahhahaha at jay getting em on renegade.this is the first time i have ever ever heard anyone say this...i mean this is just crazy.em delivered a classic and i dont like jay but i dont blame his for getting bodied.em was just crazy

T.Ali got best Em on Touchdown

Juice >>>> Em..

i agree that MC Juice is ill,
but you've got to give some solid evidence here. this is an argument. you can't just throw out a artist>>>>>>>artist
there is no argument in that. it's just your opinion. provoke some discussion here. give some examples.

Masta ace >>>>>em...but hahahahahhahaha at jay getting em on renegade.this is the first time i have ever ever heard anyone say this...i mean this is just crazy.em delivered a classic and i dont like jay but i dont blame his for getting bodied.em was just crazy

Only thing Eminem had over Jay-Z was multis. the first several lines of the song were filler, the rest was filled with bad logic and more filler.

His verse wasn't that great if you look past the multis.

Jay killed renegades but he still got raped by eminem...im with killa right on this, I have never seen anyone try to say Jay won. Its more then just multi's, eminem came with that witty flow. He was better lyrically and his flow was better, he did everything better...and thats coming from someone that doesnt even really like Eminem. And i see we got a few more Jay-z fans on here apparently, so just to avoid an argument...eminem is not on the level of Jay-Z and will never be. Jay-Z is a legitimate GOAT candidate, Eminem is not because many of his songs are not timeless...they are geared towards middle school/high school kids, hence the reason why they are silly.

Lyrically Jay got em on renegade

I had to hustle, my back to the wall, ashy knuckles
Pockets filled with a lot of lint, not a cent
Gotta vent, lot of innocent of lives lost on the project bench
Whatchu hollerin? Gotta pay rent, bring dollars in
By the bodega, iron under my coat, feelin braver
Doo-rag wrappin my waves up, pockets full of hope
Do not step to me - I'm awkward, I box lefty often
My pops left me an orphan, my momma wasn't home
Could not stress to me I wasn't grown; 'specially on nights
I brought somethin home to quiet the stomach rumblings
My demeanor - thirty years my senior
My childhood didn't mean much, only raisin green up
Raisin my fingers to critics; raisin my head to the sky
Big I did it - multi before I die (*****)
No lie, just know I chose my own fate
I drove by the fork in the road and went straight

I really feel the bolded line.. I been there

I like ems flow better then jayz on this song, but lyrically jay z ate EM

What was so lyrical about Eminem's first verse?

Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids and they listen
I ain't no politician but I'll kick it with 'em a minute
Cause see they call me a menace; and if the shoe fits I'll wear it
But if it don't, then y'all'll swallow the truth grin and bear it

A bunch of multis, nothing really that stands out
Now who's these king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics
Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics
Usin' his music to steer it, sharin his views and his merits
But there's a huge interference - they're sayin you shouldn't hear it
again, a bunch of multis, first few lines were pretty redundant, filler

Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit
Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish
But I'm debated disputed hated and viewed in America
as a mother****in drug addict - like you didn't experiment?
Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror
and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrased
again, this is really not that mind blowing. He's trying to imply that because someone did something in the past that they should't tell other not to do that thing. That's weak logic.

And I got nothin' to do but make you look stupid as parents
You ****in do-gooders - too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!
(Ha ha!)
Lame. Neither could you.
And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't
think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo
Cause here we go - he's {*Jigga joint Jigga-chk-Jigga*
And I'm the sinister, Mr. Kiss-My-Ass it's just the
not a really great verse


Jay-z verse was better. I liked how he was saying he brings the ills of the ghetto to the forefront of the media and that if those same dudes in the media acting all stuck up and high and mighty were in his position that they'd lose their tie and shirt, basically would not be so clean if they had to live in the ghetto.

I think alot of people think because nas said em killed jay z, that means its the truth.. People need to start thinking with their own mind. Not nas mind..


"I bring it through the ghetto without ridin 'round
hidin down duckin strays from frustrated youths stuck in they ways
Just read a magazine that ****ed up my day
How you rate music that thugs with nothin relate to it?
I help them see they way through it - not you
Can't step in my pants, can't walk in my shoes
Bet everything you worth; you lose your tie and your shirt"


Em aint ****in wit dat ^^

you guys cant be serious, Em killed that song

@ 4:04 its em and Percee
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P clearly kills em.

Juice >>>> Em..

you mean juice the guy signed to game's record label? damn




5'9 and P clearly held their own against Em.

I think Jay took both rounds on renegades. And, yeah, Jay-z > Eminem. But then again, that isn't a knock on Eminem as Jay-z is possibly the greatest rapper ever.

again with the bull**** :tragedy:

in other words--hell no---jay z, game, royce, 50, dre, snoop, lil wayne, drake, biggie, even tupac--although they never really made a song together--neither did him and biggie--pretty much everybody who he's rapped with--he's outshined---jay z especially---em outshines other rappers on their own ****--fact--and has never not outshined them---

What was so lyrical about Eminem's first verse?

Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids and they listen
I ain't no politician but I'll kick it with 'em a minute
Cause see they call me a menace; and if the shoe fits I'll wear it
But if it don't, then y'all'll swallow the truth grin and bear it

A bunch of multis, nothing really that stands out
Now who's these king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics
Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics
Usin' his music to steer it, sharin his views and his merits
But there's a huge interference - they're sayin you shouldn't hear it
again, a bunch of multis, first few lines were pretty redundant, filler

Maybe it's hatred I spew, maybe it's food for the spirit
Maybe it's beautiful music I made for you to just cherish
But I'm debated disputed hated and viewed in America
as a mother****in drug addict - like you didn't experiment?
Now now, that's when you start to stare at who's in the mirror
and see yourself as a kid again, and you get embarrased
again, this is really not that mind blowing. He's trying to imply that because someone did something in the past that they should't tell other not to do that thing. That's weak logic.

And I got nothin' to do but make you look stupid as parents
You ****in do-gooders - too bad you couldn't do good at marriage!
(Ha ha!)
Lame. Neither could you.
And do you have any clue what I had to do to get here I don't
think you do so stay tuned and keep your ears glued to the stereo
Cause here we go - he's {*Jigga joint Jigga-chk-Jigga*
And I'm the sinister, Mr. Kiss-My-Ass it's just the
not a really great verse


Jay-z verse was better. I liked how he was saying he brings the ills of the ghetto to the forefront of the media and that if those same dudes in the media acting all stuck up and high and mighty were in his position that they'd lose their tie and shirt, basically would not be so clean if they had to live in the ghetto.just coz you relate to jay's verse better--doesn't mean it was--coz it damn sure wasn't---em, at the time, had a bunch of negative press about his impact on young children with his content of his songs--and the parents of these children had a huge judgement on his perona in hip hop--so did the media----he put it all into perspective beautifully in this soong and crushed jay z in every aspect of the word crushed, and jay's verses weren't even bad if you talk about his message just like em's message was summed up amazing(so you have to take into thoughtheir flow in this case and delivery and rhymsescheme coz they both had amazing messages with their verses)---em's verses, however, were just that good in these departments---and don't ge me started on his songs with snoop, dre, 50, game, lil wayne, and hwoever else you guys got including royce who has never outshined em on any song--he may have held his own, but that kudos toroyce---em is on another level from these cats, i'm telling--the only rapper i see holding his own very well with eminem is joe buddens right now---nas, rakim, and big l are all time greats who would hold their own against em, but not outshine him---em is to brilliant an artist to be outshined by any rapper---

you didn't even break em's fcontent down, you broke down his delivery of the lines, what the **** were you thinking--i's like you didn't even follow em, but made an opinion about his lines--his lines were absolutely brilliant---

and for the guy talking about em's songs being for middle school kids and too gooofy---you're on some serious ****---i wouldn't call songs like---

lose yourself
stan
one day at a time
renagades
rock bottom
murder murder
quitter
love me
stimulate
sing for the moment
soldier
like toy soldiers
313
white america
mosh
still don't give a ****
the way i am
we ain't going
how come
rabbit run
you don't know
i remember
nail in the coffin
the sauce
we as americans
my darling
beautiful
ti'll i collaspe
forever remix
bitophobia
evil demons
cleaning out my closet
jealous woes
revelation
marshall mathers
warning shot
assassins
drop the world with lil wayne
dead wrong
yellow brick
when i'm gone
deja vu


shall i go on? i have plenty more of his serious songs for your dumb asses----trust me--he's a ****ing legends and the most conscience rapper i've ever listened to----

in other words--hell no---jay z, game, royce, 50, dre, snoop, lil wayne, drake, biggie, even tupac--although they never really made a song together--neither did him and biggie--pretty much everybody who he's rapped with--he's outshined---jay z especially---em outshines other rappers on their own ****--fact--and has never not outshined them---

@ 4:04 its em and Percee
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again, PERCEE P outshines him period, just listen

Renegades is one of my favorite tracks, but I've never thought Em outshined Jay on that track. The flow and delivery was crazy from Marshal as usual, but as far as the lyrics I gave it to Jay. He was putting some real things in there.

just coz you relate to jay's verse better--doesn't mean it was--coz it damn sure wasn't---em, at the time, had a bunch of negative press about his impact on young children with his content of his songs--and the parents of these children had a huge judgement on his perona in hip hop--so did the media----he put it all into perspective beautifully in this soong and crushed jay z in every aspect of the word crushed, and jay's verses weren't even bad if you talk about his message just like em's message was summed up amazing(so you have to take into thoughtheir flow in this case and delivery and rhymsescheme coz they both had amazing messages with their verses)---em's verses, however, were just that good in these departments---and don't ge me started on his songs with snoop, dre, 50, game, lil wayne, and hwoever else you guys got including royce who has never outshined em on any song--he may have held his own, but that kudos toroyce---em is on another level from these cats, i'm telling--the only rapper i see holding his own very well with eminem is joe buddens right now---nas, rakim, and big l are all time greats who would hold their own against em, but not outshine him---em is to brilliant an artist to be outshined by any rapper---

you didn't even break em's fcontent down, you broke down his delivery of the lines, what the **** were you thinking--i's like you didn't even follow em, but made an opinion about his lines--his lines were absolutely brilliant---

and for the guy talking about em's songs being for middle school kids and too gooofy---you're on some serious ****---i wouldn't call songs like---

lose yourself
stan
one day at a time
renagades
rock bottom
murder murder
quitter
love me
stimulate
sing for the moment
soldier
like toy soldiers
313
white america
mosh
still don't give a ****
the way i am
we ain't going
how come
rabbit run
you don't know
i remember
nail in the coffin
the sauce
we as americans
my darling
beautiful
ti'll i collaspe
forever remix
bitophobia
evil demons
cleaning out my closet
jealous woes
revelation
marshall mathers
warning shot
assassins
drop the world with lil wayne
dead wrong
yellow brick
when i'm gone
deja vu


shall i go on? i have plenty more of his serious songs for your dumb asses----trust me--he's a ****ing legends and the most conscience rapper i've ever listened to----

You didnt give any reason why eminems verse was better than jay z, Only thing em killed on renegade was his flow.. He rhymed his words together better.. But Lyrically Jay ate em.

You didnt give any reason why eminems verse was better than jay z, Only thing em killed on renegade was his flow.. He rhymed his words together better.. But Lyrically Jay ate em.yes i did---em's message was cut-throat, he had a huge impact on music andtons of controversy amongst teen kids and young kids--so at this time, when renegades came out, em already had the mmlp out, the album that got him that controversy--from parents to religious people to other groups of people, eminem explained and broke down his view on all of it--and did it with a rhymescheme so unique, and the timing of his lyrics to the beat and how he switched his flow and cadance in each verse put his verses over the top--

go to war with the mormons--take a bath with the catholics--in holy water--no wonder they tried to hold me under longer---brilliant line--that line right there sums his view on religious groups criticizing his music--calling it satan's music--he had many groups cussing his music--that is only one part of that verse also--he went in on this song---em killed it..

yes i did---em's message was cut-throat, he had a huge impact on music andtons of controversy amongst teen kids and young kids--so at this time, when renegades came out, em already had the mmlp out, the album that got him that controversy--from parents to religious people to other groups of people, eminem explained and broke down his view on all of it--and did it with a rhymescheme so unique, and the timing of his lyrics to the beat and how he switched his flow and cadance in each verse put his verses over the top--

go to war with the mormons--take a bath with the catholics--in holy water--no wonder they tried to hold me under longer---brilliant line--that line right there sums his view on religious groups criticizing his music--calling it satan's music--he had many groups cussing his music--that is only one part of that verse also--he went in on this song---em killed it..



em got ****ted on by Percee

yes i did---em's message was cut-throat, he had a huge impact on music andtons of controversy amongst teen kids and young kids--so at this time, when renegades came out, em already had the mmlp out, the album that got him that controversy--from parents to religious people to other groups of people, eminem explained and broke down his view on all of it--and did it with a rhymescheme so unique, and the timing of his lyrics to the beat and how he switched his flow and cadance in each verse put his verses over the top--

go to war with the mormons--take a bath with the catholics--in holy water--no wonder they tried to hold me under longer---brilliant line--that line right there sums his view on religious groups criticizing his music--calling it satan's music--he had many groups cussing his music--that is only one part of that verse also--he went in on this song---em killed it..


His first verse he repeated a lot of things. Some of the lines were just filler to fill the rhyme scheme. Also, his rebuttals were weak. He said that "you see yourself as a kid again and you get embarassed" how is that a good rebuttal to the parents that criticized his music? Again, it's saying that if you've done something in the past that you shouldn't or can't criticize someone who is doing or illustrating that thing. It's a weak argument.

Jay-Z's first verse had a lot more logic to it. He brought up how the media criticizes him for corrupting black youth with his lyrics. How they say rappers are ruining the ghettos, throwing all the blame at them yet they haven't done anything to help those kids in the hood. He says it's actually him and rappers like him that are renegades for brining out the ills of the hood to the forefront of the media and are who the kids in the ghettos can relate to.


He brought up how the media, whites, are afraid to shine light on how really bad it is in the ghettos. They are afraid of it getting out. "The renegade; you been afraid
I penetrate pop culture, bring 'em a lot closer to the block where they
pop toasters, and they live with they moms
Got dropped roasters, from botched robberies *****z crotched over
Mommy's knocked up cause she wasn't watched over
Knocked down by some clown when child support knocked
No he's not around - now how that sound to ya, jot it down
I bring it through the ghetto without ridin 'round"

i agree that MC Juice is ill,
but you've got to give some solid evidence here. this is an argument. you can't just throw out a artist>>>>>>>artist
there is no argument in that. it's just your opinion. provoke some discussion here. give some examples.

MC Juice beat Eminem in a freestyle competition at scribble jam in 1997..

you mean juice the guy signed to game's record label? damn




5'9 and P clearly held their own against Em.

The original juice aka MC Juice, he's from chicago he beat em in a freestyle competition back in 97 at scribble jam.. Juice has skills never really got signed great underground artist

lol @ however is saying Jay-Z outshined Eminem on Renagade and Jay-Z can't see Em lyrically

lol @ however is saying Jay-Z outshined Eminem on Renagade and Jay-Z can't see Em lyrically

Jay z outshined em, and he is miles ahead lyrically..

Only thing em got an jay is FLOW.

The original juice aka MC Juice, he's from chicago he beat em in a freestyle competition back in 97 at scribble jam.. Juice has skills never really got signed great underground artist

oh yeah, how could i forget about the guy who killed em on the "rap olympics"

Percee P and MC Juice took a dump on Eminem case closed

Jay z outshined em, and he is miles ahead lyrically..

Only thing em got an jay is FLOW.

miles ahead Lyrically? ha!
how much does jay pay you for the **** cleaning?

miles ahead Lyrically? ha!
how much does jay pay you for the **** cleaning?

I get 2k each week bud

I get 2k each week bud

ha watch out for those hemorrhoids

lol, good **** beasty.

In all seriousness, though, Jay-z is one of the most underrated lyricist.

lol, good **** beasty.

In all seriousness, though, Jay-z is one of the most underrated lyricist.

what the ****, that muth****er is called "the greatest ever BY MILLIONS" explain to me how the **** is he underrated, Jay is a known superb Lyricist world wide

His first verse he repeated a lot of things. Some of the lines were just filler to fill the rhyme scheme. Also, his rebuttals were weak. He said that "you see yourself as a kid again and you get embarassed" how is that a good rebuttal to the parents that criticized his music? Again, it's saying that if you've done something in the past that you shouldn't or can't criticize someone who is doing or illustrating that thing. It's a weak argument.

Jay-Z's first verse had a lot more logic to it. He brought up how the media criticizes him for corrupting black youth with his lyrics. How they say rappers are ruining the ghettos, throwing all the blame at them yet they haven't done anything to help those kids in the hood. He says it's actually him and rappers like him that are renegades for brining out the ills of the hood to the forefront of the media and are who the kids in the ghettos can relate to.


He brought up how the media, whites, are afraid to shine light on how really bad it is in the ghettos. They are afraid of it getting out. "The renegade; you been afraid
I penetrate pop culture, bring 'em a lot closer to the block where they
pop toasters, and they live with they moms
Got dropped roasters, from botched robberies *****z crotched over
Mommy's knocked up cause she wasn't watched over
Knocked down by some clown when child support knocked
No he's not around - now how that sound to ya, jot it down
I bring it through the ghetto without ridin 'round"ohhh okay so because you like jay's line more--it makes it better than em's--and em's lines were fillers? what the **** are you on boy? em was talking about parents judging him--and it wasn't a weak rebuttal seeing how the parents' kids were the ones influenced by eminem---the parent's kids--that makes his lines that much more important, and defines him that much more as a renegade--just as much or more than jay z's verses---coz thye both had messages about how they are perceived through their music--but em summed his lines up with a better flow and a much needed message to parents and religious groups---him being an influence on young kids and teens--is very important seeing how yound kids are our furture---

ohhh okay so because you like jay's line more--it makes it better than em's--and em's lines were fillers? what the **** are you on boy? em was talking about parents judging him--and it wasn't a weak rebuttal seeing how the parents' kids were the ones influenced by eminem---the parent's kids--that makes his lines that much more important, and defines him that much more as a renegade--just as much or more than jay z's verses---coz thye both had messages about how they are perceived through their music--but em summed his lines up with a better flow and a much needed message to parents and religious groups---him being an influence on young kids and teens--is very important seeing how yound kids are our furture---

Jay z verse made a way more solid point for him to be a renegade over eminem.. Listen to jay he talks about hood life, how he struggled by him self just to make money for his family to survive.. Em just talked about white america who does not like to see a white man rap, and how they make him out to be some kind of druggy..

^^^^ you simply liked his subject matter better, thats it, over all Em killed jay with the FLOW, RHYME SCHEMES, Word Play, which is a big part of Emceeing, did you know that?


"Em just talked about white america who does not like to see a white man rap, and how they make him out to be some kind of druggy" with superb rhyme schemes and flow




Eminem killed Jay, thats that, how the **** is it even arguable?

They were'nt on a song together but Everlast killed him on Whitey Revenge, no bull**** brought up real life stuff on that. Killed him.

They were'nt on a song together but Everlast killed him on Whitey Revenge, no bull**** brought up real life stuff on that. Killed him.

how did he kill him? by spitting truth?

^^^^ you simply liked his subject matter better, thats it, over all Em killed jay with the FLOW, RHYME SCHEMES, Word Play, which is a big part of Emceeing, did you know that?


"Em just talked about white america who does not like to see a white man rap, and how they make him out to be some kind of druggy" with superb rhyme schemes and flow




Eminem killed Jay, thats that, how the **** is it even arguable?

Eminem focosed more on making everything sound better by rhyming things that made no sense.. I mean comeone he makes a ****in noise for a whole bar...

Jay z spit the truth in his rap, with a beasty flow.

ohhh okay so because you like jay's line more--it makes it better than em's--and em's lines were fillers? what the **** are you on boy? em was talking about parents judging him--and it wasn't a weak rebuttal seeing how the parents' kids were the ones influenced by eminem---the parent's kids--that makes his lines that much more important, and defines him that much more as a renegade--just as much or more than jay z's verses---coz thye both had messages about how they are perceived through their music--but em summed his lines up with a better flow and a much needed message to parents and religious groups---him being an influence on young kids and teens--is very important seeing how yound kids are our furture---

"Since I'm in a position to talk to these kids and they listen
I ain't no politician but I'll kick it with 'em a minute
Cause see they call me a menace; and if the shoe fits I'll wear it
But if it don't, then y'all'll swallow the truth grin and bear it
Now who's these king of these rude ludicrous lucrative lyrics
Who could inherit the title, put the youth in hysterics
Usin his music to steer it, sharin his views and his merits"

Tell me, what exactly is he saying in these lines that are so profound? He basically took 7 lines to say that he is labeled as a menace and that he is
in place to influence the youth. This is all stuff that we already knew before this verse, so him rehashing it is filler. Especially the last three lines of the lines I posted, he is just repeating himself.

Eminem is a renegade, for sure, but he didn't over rebuttals to his critics as well as Jay-z did.

Eminem focosed more on making everything sound better by rhyming things that made no sense.. I mean comeone he makes a ****in noise for a whole bar...
Jay z spit the truth in his rap, with a beasty flow.

thats how u know he's the best rapper he could just make a noise for a bar and still have people even other rappers feel like he had the better verse against someone as great as jay-z

Or it could prove how stupid people are for thinking he had a better verse. His verse was mediocre. What made it seem good was his flow and use of multis. Lyrically, it isn't special. Jay-z's first verse was better lyricallythen Eminems.

Eminem focosed more on making everything sound better by rhyming things that made no sense.. I mean comeone he makes a ****in noise for a whole bar...

Jay z spit the truth in his rap, with a beasty flow.


still in denial?
and you call that beasty flow, damn you got very low standards

to each their own