View Full Version : Evaluate George Foreman's Legacy Pre-First Retirement


Obama
12-19-2009, 03:13 AM
If George Foreman never came out of retirement following his loss to Jimmy Young in 1977, would he make your top 10 ATG Heavyweight list?

He wouldn't make mine. I'd have him in the top 20 tho.

George's Resume Pre-First Retirement:

Notable Wins:
Gregorio Peralta (x2)
George Chuvalo
Boone Kirkman
Joe Frazier (x2) [Undefeated]
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali [KO 8]
Jimmy Young [UD 12]

That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.

Silencers
12-19-2009, 03:18 AM
I think his ability to compete with the younger heavyweights in the 80s and 90s is what cemented his legacy as an ATG, if he hadn't come back I probably wouldn't call him a great heavyweight but he'd still go down as a very, very good one.

them_apples
12-19-2009, 03:22 AM
I think his ability to compete with the younger heavyweights in the 80s and 90s is what cemented his legacy as an ATG, if he hadn't come back I probably wouldn't call him a great heavyweight but he'd still go down as a very, very good one.

meh i dont even look at his 90's run, that was just icing on the cake. He fought in a very tough era and was one of the best. When 3 heavyweight names get brought up from the 70's, it's Foreman, Frazier and Ali.

GJC
12-19-2009, 09:20 AM
If George Foreman never came out of retirement following his loss to Jimmy Young in 1977, would he make your top 10 ATG Heavyweight list?

He wouldn't make mine. I'd have him in the top 20 tho.

George's Resume Pre-First Retirement:

Notable Wins:
Gregorio Peralta (x2)
George Chuvalo
Boone Kirkman
Joe Frazier (x2) [Undefeated]
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali [KO 8]
Jimmy Young [UD 12]

That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.
Depends how you rate fighters I guess. If your ratings are resume driven then Foreman's 1970's resume isnt the best. That said you could drive big holes through his 80's/90's wins if you wanted to be harsh. Moorer a pumped up light heavy was winning comfortably and the rest were a mixture of the mediocre or washed up.
If you do your ratings on who beats who then it becomes difficult to think of 10 HW's who would beat a prime Foreman.
Think he must have been near for the 70's and the comeback pushed him over the line.

sonnyboyx2
12-19-2009, 12:25 PM
If George Foreman never came out of retirement following his loss to Jimmy Young in 1977, would he make your top 10 ATG Heavyweight list?

He wouldn't make mine. I'd have him in the top 20 tho.

George's Resume Pre-First Retirement:

Notable Wins:
Gregorio Peralta (x2)
George Chuvalo
Boone Kirkman
Joe Frazier (x2) [Undefeated]
Ken Norton
Ron Lyle
Notable Losses:
Muhammad Ali [KO 8]
Jimmy Young [UD 12]

That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.

Foreman`s legacy as an ATG has very little to do with his comeback, Foreman was Olympic Gold Medalist and destroyed his first 38 opponents including George Chuvalo whom he butchered.. Foreman hammered Joe Frazier & Ken Norton both of who gave Muhammad Ali fits.. the manner of his victories was `awesome`and it was thought and rightly so by many boxing experts that Foreman was unbeatable, .. Muhammad Ali was a 7/1 dog going into his fight with Foreman and burst the guys bubble, it happens to almost all of them,
Roy Jones vs Tarver
Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas
Joe Frazier vs George Foreman
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey vs Gene Tunney

But do we say these are not ATGs ?

Obama
12-19-2009, 01:26 PM
Foreman`s legacy as an ATG has very little to do with his comeback, Foreman was Olympic Gold Medalist and destroyed his first 38 opponents including George Chuvalo whom he butchered.. Foreman hammered Joe Frazier & Ken Norton both of who gave Muhammad Ali fits.. the manner of his victories was `awesome`and it was thought and rightly so by many boxing experts that Foreman was unbeatable, .. Muhammad Ali was a 7/1 dog going into his fight with Foreman and burst the guys bubble, it happens to almost all of them,
Roy Jones vs Tarver
Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas
Joe Frazier vs George Foreman
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey vs Gene Tunney

But do we say these are not ATGs ?

You can't compare a prime Foreman losing to a faded Ali to the other great faded fighters losing to prime opponents.

And he didn't destroy Chuvalo. What fight did you watch? On Chuvalo's standards, the fight barely got started by the time it was stopped. Chuvalo was much, much, much more durable and resilient than the ref gave him credit for. He also didn't destroy Peralta the first time, he barely won the damn fight in reality.

Anyways, we don't base ATG lists on picking 10 guys who'd beat a prime fighter based off speculation. If we did, Roy Jones and Mike Tyson would be top 20 p4p fighters.

However, considering what Jimmy Young did to Foreman, I think the list of guys that beat him could well approach 10.

donkim
12-19-2009, 01:56 PM
That's all he had to show for himself in 47 fights. Some say he didn't even beat Peralta the first time. Lyle nearly knocked him out. His fight with Chuvalo was stopped waaaaaay too early. Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him. And Boone Kirkman (do you even know him?) is easily the 5th or 6th best guy he beat at the time.


LMAO,Chuvalo's own managed asked the referee to stop the fight, idiot.Don't give me this crap about Norton and frazier being tailor made for him either.You can discredit anybody's win by claiming the other guy was "tailor made".

foreman deserves credit for actually fighting the dangerous Ron Lyle head on,Shavers did the same thing and was brutally knocked out cold with his face planted on the canvas.

Obama
12-19-2009, 02:06 PM
LMAO,Chuvalo's own managed asked the referee to stop the fight, idiot.Don't give me this crap about Norton and frazier being tailor made for him either.You can discredit anybody's win by claiming the other guy was "tailor made".

foreman deserves credit for actually fighting the dangerous Ron Lyle head on,Shavers did the same thing and was brutally knocked out cold with his face planted on the canvas.

Whether his manager asked the ref to stop the fight or not, Chuvalo was far from ready to go. I also re-looked at the 3rd round of that fight, and the referee didn't look over at anyone before he stopped the fight. His eyes were on the two fighters, no one else. The commentator said the manager asked for the fight to be stopped, but the ref didn't even hear him, also stated by the commentator.

Point about the tailor made business was Foreman didn't beat anyone of even a semi-elite caliber that was a problem stylistically for him. Not one single guy out of 47.

cooper5
12-19-2009, 04:03 PM
I believe his underrated in his first career but I do find hard to place him in the all time top ten based on just part of his career. Add to it the miracle comeback and he's in.

bklynboy
12-19-2009, 05:47 PM
Foreman`s legacy as an ATG has very little to do with his comeback, Foreman was Olympic Gold Medalist and destroyed his first 38 opponents including George Chuvalo whom he butchered.. Foreman hammered Joe Frazier & Ken Norton both of who gave Muhammad Ali fits.. the manner of his victories was `awesome`and it was thought and rightly so by many boxing experts that Foreman was unbeatable, .. Muhammad Ali was a 7/1 dog going into his fight with Foreman and burst the guys bubble, it happens to almost all of them,
Roy Jones vs Tarver
Mike Tyson vs Buster Douglas
Joe Frazier vs George Foreman
Joe Louis vs Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey vs Gene Tunney

But do we say these are not ATGs ?



Foreman was considered a monster -- but then so was Sonny Liston and Liston barely makes anyone's top 10.

If Foreman is a top 10 who among the following does he displace?

Jim Jeffries (maybe / yes)
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney (maybe)
Joe Louis
Jersey Joe Walcott (yes)
Ezzard Charles (yes)
Marciano (maybe) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Floyd Patterson (maybe)
Sonny Liston (yes)
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier (yes) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield (maybe)
Lennox Lewis (maybe)

In my opinion Foreman was a border-line top 10 fighter based on his 1970s career.

Heru
12-19-2009, 06:28 PM
Frazier and Norton were tailor made to lose to him.

Are you deducting points for this?

Foreman's second career bumped him up some 5-10 spots.

Obama
12-19-2009, 06:43 PM
Are you deducting points for this?

Foreman's second career bumped him up some 5-10 spots.

Nah, not deducting, just not adding extra. If the man beat Larry Holmes in the late 70s I'd rate him top 5. But he wanted nothing to do with classical boxers, thus he never beat an impressive one until his miracle KO of Michael Moore in the mid 90s.

Ziggy Stardust
12-19-2009, 09:55 PM
Foreman was considered a monster -- but then so was Sonny Liston and Liston barely makes anyone's top 10.

I happen to rank Liston #6 all-time at Heavyweight.


If Foreman is a top 10 who among the following does he displace?


Jim Jeffries - Yes
Jack Johnson - No
Jack Dempsey - No
Gene Tunney - A Light-Heavyweight who shouldn't be ranked as a Heavy.
Joe Louis - No
Jersey Joe Walcott - Yes
Ezzard Charles - The best at Light-Heavy so shouldn't be ranked a Heavy.
Marciano - Yes
Floyd Patterson - Yes
Sonny Liston - No
Muhammad Ali - No
Joe Frazier - Yes
Larry Holmes - No
Mike Tyson - Yes
Evander Holyfield - Tossup
Lennox Lewis - Yes

Poet

sonnyboyx2
12-20-2009, 12:29 AM
You can't compare a prime Foreman losing to a faded Ali to the other great faded fighters losing to prime opponents.

And he didn't destroy Chuvalo. What fight did you watch? On Chuvalo's standards, the fight barely got started by the time it was stopped. Chuvalo was much, much, much more durable and resilient than the ref gave him credit for. He also didn't destroy Peralta the first time, he barely won the damn fight in reality.

Anyways, we don't base ATG lists on picking 10 guys who'd beat a prime fighter based off speculation. If we did, Roy Jones and Mike Tyson would be top 20 p4p fighters.

However, considering what Jimmy Young did to Foreman, I think the list of guys that beat him could well approach 10.

you ask which fight i watched?.. i watched Foreman destroy Chuvalo, lifting him virtually off his feet and blungening him around the ring, Chuvalo was only seconds off going down when he turned away from the action looking for Hall of Fame referee Arthur Mercante to stop the fight..

Muhammad Ali was `Not faded`when he beat Foreman in Zaire, he was in incredible physical condition.

Jimmy Young edged a very debatable decision win over Foreman, Young never put Foreman on the canvas as many seem to believe, Foreman stumbled over Youngs feet and brushed his right glove on the canvas which is ruled a knock down and gave Young the decision, IMO Foreman won that fight 9-3rds

Foreman vs Lyle.... Lyle was a `monster`who if fighting today would have been the undisputed champion for the last 10yrs.

sonnyboyx2
12-20-2009, 12:35 AM
Nah, not deducting, just not adding extra. If the man beat Larry Holmes in the late 70s I'd rate him top 5. But he wanted nothing to do with classical boxers, thus he never beat an impressive one until his miracle KO of Michael Moore in the mid 90s.

you could not be more incorrect... Foreman would have destroyed Larry Holmes in the late 70s within a couple of rounds... Holmes was thought of as `nothing special`and a fighter with a weak chin after his fights with Ibar Arrington and Roy Williams.. Holmes was never in a position to fight Foreman..Foremans victories over Frazier & Norton were breathtaking with Norton being a great boxer who only lost by debatable split-decision to Holmes when at the very tail-end of his career.

TBear
12-20-2009, 12:48 AM
I voted yes but barely. He was the first to ever beat smoking Joe and to lose the Greatest was not as shameful as George probably felt on that day in Zaire. But he was almost unbeatable. Remember, Ali could not box him, he could not move around because George cut him off, he only cover up and George beat himself by throwing everything he had. But tough guys like Chuvalo and Frazier, they didn't stand a chance!

sonnyboyx2
12-20-2009, 12:52 AM
Foreman was considered a monster -- but then so was Sonny Liston and Liston barely makes anyone's top 10.

If Foreman is a top 10 who among the following does he displace?

Jim Jeffries (maybe / yes)
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney (maybe)
Joe Louis
Jersey Joe Walcott (yes)
Ezzard Charles (yes)
Marciano (maybe) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Floyd Patterson (maybe)
Sonny Liston (yes)
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier (yes) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield (maybe)
Lennox Lewis (maybe)

In my opinion Foreman was a border-line top 10 fighter based on his 1970s career.

The 1973 George Foreman would IMO

Foreman vs Tyson --- Foreman by KO2
Foreman vs Holyfield -Foreman by KO5
Foreman vs Lewis ----Foreman by KO2
Foreman vs Holmes --Foreman by KO4
Foreman vs Marciano - Foreman by KO4
Foreman vs Walcott --- Foreman by KO4
Foreman vs Jeffries ---- Foreman by KO3
Foreman vs Patterson -- Foreman by KO2

George may struggle with the others listed.. yet do not forget that George Foreman was the `Hardest puncher in Boxing history`

Ziggy Stardust
12-20-2009, 12:47 PM
yet do not forget that George Foreman was the `Hardest puncher in Boxing history`

Second hardest puncher. Earnie Shavers is the concensus pick for hardest puncher by boxing historians.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
12-20-2009, 01:00 PM
Second hardest puncher. Earnie Shavers is the concensus pick for hardest puncher by boxing historians.

Poet

Thats OK its about opinion, but other than Norton who did Shavers ever knock out other than a bunch of tomato cans.

Foreman lifted 210lbs Frazier off the canvas with a punch

bklynboy
12-20-2009, 01:29 PM
I happen to rank Liston #6 all-time at Heavyweight.





Jim Jeffries - Yes
Jack Johnson - No
Jack Dempsey - No
Gene Tunney - A Light-Heavyweight who shouldn't be ranked as a Heavy.
Joe Louis - No
Jersey Joe Walcott - Yes
Ezzard Charles - The best at Light-Heavy so shouldn't be ranked a Heavy.
Marciano - Yes
Floyd Patterson - Yes
Sonny Liston - No
Muhammad Ali - No
Joe Frazier - Yes
Larry Holmes - No
Mike Tyson - Yes
Evander Holyfield - Tossup
Lennox Lewis - Yes

Poet

I've never really liked making hard and fast top 10s. There's a whole lot of problem making them. The biggest problem I face are match-ups. I'm a believer in "styles makes fights." I think that Marciano would give Ali problems in the same way that Frazier gave Ali problems. But does that mean that Marciano was better than Ali. Hell No. So Marciano would be below Ali. I think that Foreman would always KO Frazier, but does that make him better? No. Frazier and Marciano (IMHO) would always give Louis and Ali problems, but Ali and Louis would beat the clubbing, wide-armed Foreman. I hate ranking fighters by match-ups. Too problematic and ultimately we'll never know.

I place Foreman as a top 10, but barely. In my mind Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali are definately better than George Foreman. They are -- in my opinion -- definately top 5 heavyweights.

But there are at least 5 or 6 other fighters -- if not more -- who are borderline top 10 heavyweights with Foreman. Jim Jeffries, Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson and George Foreman are top 10 fighters. But a case can be made for Jersey Joe, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.

I think Jersey Joe would beat Foreman -- but as said before I don't like judging TOP 10 lists by who would beat who.

bklynboy
12-20-2009, 01:33 PM
The 1973 George Foreman would IMO

Foreman vs Tyson --- Foreman by KO2
Foreman vs Holyfield -Foreman by KO5
Foreman vs Lewis ----Foreman by KO2
Foreman vs Holmes --Foreman by KO4
Foreman vs Marciano - Foreman by KO4
Foreman vs Walcott --- Foreman by KO4
Foreman vs Jeffries ---- Foreman by KO3
Foreman vs Patterson -- Foreman by KO2

George may struggle with the others listed.. yet do not forget that George Foreman was the `Hardest puncher in Boxing history`

He was among the hardest hitters, true. But he threw very wide punches. I for one think that Jersey Joe would take Foreman apart as Hopkins destroyed Pavlik.

boxerca
12-20-2009, 04:54 PM
Like someone stated in this thread, his legacy would be similar to that of Sonny Liston's and I don't have Liston in my top 10. Top 20? Sure. But not top 10.

It was because of his comeback that he deserves to be a top 10 heavyweight of all-time.

tstyle
12-21-2009, 01:36 AM
I also agree that he would not have made the list if not for the comeback, but taking nothing away from "Big George Foreman".

However I disagree with people who are bringing up this " tailor made " idea of matchups and excuses. a W is a W , a L is a L. Every boxer knows the rules of the game, it's up to them to employ the fight.

sonnyboyx2
12-21-2009, 03:24 AM
I've never really liked making hard and fast top 10s. There's a whole lot of problem making them. The biggest problem I face are match-ups. I'm a believer in "styles makes fights." I think that Marciano would give Ali problems in the same way that Frazier gave Ali problems. But does that mean that Marciano was better than Ali. Hell No. So Marciano would be below Ali. I think that Foreman would always KO Frazier, but does that make him better? No. Frazier and Marciano (IMHO) would always give Louis and Ali problems, but Ali and Louis would beat the clubbing, wide-armed Foreman. I hate ranking fighters by match-ups. Too problematic and ultimately we'll never know.

I place Foreman as a top 10, but barely. In my mind Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali are definately better than George Foreman. They are -- in my opinion -- definately top 5 heavyweights.

But there are at least 5 or 6 other fighters -- if not more -- who are borderline top 10 heavyweights with Foreman. Jim Jeffries, Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson and George Foreman are top 10 fighters. But a case can be made for Jersey Joe, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.

I think Jersey Joe would beat Foreman -- but as said before I don't like judging TOP 10 lists by who would beat who.

i agee with what you say, Top 10s are opinions and `Not carved in Stone`... some have said Sonny Liston does not make their Top 10 yet guys like Vitali, Lewis, Jeffries, Wills & Walcott do, i cannot go along with that view, IMO Liston would simply walk right through those guys, Liston was a very good boxer when needed, yet never had to box in most fights simply because he had his opponents beaten before the 1st bell by `FEAR` Liston was an incredible physical speciman, "Huge-hands, telescopic-reach, knock-out drops in both hands, a chin made of granite, a stare like a laser-beam... many thought Liston would be champion for life`... if ever there was a heavyweight champion who was a certainty to be in the ATG Top 10 it was Charles`Sonny`Liston.

GJC
12-23-2009, 04:18 PM
i agee with what you say, Top 10s are opinions and `Not carved in Stone`... some have said Sonny Liston does not make their Top 10 yet guys like Vitali, Lewis, Jeffries, Wills & Walcott do, i cannot go along with that view, IMO Liston would simply walk right through those guys, Liston was a very good boxer when needed, yet never had to box in most fights simply because he had his opponents beaten before the 1st bell by `FEAR` Liston was an incredible physical speciman, "Huge-hands, telescopic-reach, knock-out drops in both hands, a chin made of granite, a stare like a laser-beam... many thought Liston would be champion for life`... if ever there was a heavyweight champion who was a certainty to be in the ATG Top 10 it was Charles`Sonny`Liston.
I agree, I think for people who wern't around at that time they underestimate how terryfying Liston was and just remember Ali taunting him

GJC
12-23-2009, 04:20 PM
I've never really liked making hard and fast top 10s. There's a whole lot of problem making them. The biggest problem I face are match-ups. I'm a believer in "styles makes fights." I think that Marciano would give Ali problems in the same way that Frazier gave Ali problems. But does that mean that Marciano was better than Ali. Hell No. So Marciano would be below Ali. I think that Foreman would always KO Frazier, but does that make him better? No. Frazier and Marciano (IMHO) would always give Louis and Ali problems, but Ali and Louis would beat the clubbing, wide-armed Foreman. I hate ranking fighters by match-ups. Too problematic and ultimately we'll never know.

I place Foreman as a top 10, but barely. In my mind Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali are definately better than George Foreman. They are -- in my opinion -- definately top 5 heavyweights.

But there are at least 5 or 6 other fighters -- if not more -- who are borderline top 10 heavyweights with Foreman. Jim Jeffries, Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson and George Foreman are top 10 fighters. But a case can be made for Jersey Joe, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.

I think Jersey Joe would beat Foreman -- but as said before I don't like judging TOP 10 lists by who would beat who.
Good post I agree with most of that

Calilloyd
12-24-2009, 11:05 PM
I believe his underrated in his first career but I do find hard to place him in the all time top ten based on just part of his career. Add to it the miracle comeback and he's in.

I agree with you. He had huge wins in the first part of his career but he left too early. That would leave him off the top 10 for me. But his comeback put him right back up there. Within top 5 IMO.

Calilloyd
12-24-2009, 11:16 PM
Foreman was considered a monster -- but then so was Sonny Liston and Liston barely makes anyone's top 10.

If Foreman is a top 10 who among the following does he displace?

Jim Jeffries (maybe / yes)
Jack Johnson
Jack Dempsey
Gene Tunney (maybe)
Joe Louis
Jersey Joe Walcott (yes)
Ezzard Charles (yes)
Marciano (maybe) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Floyd Patterson (maybe)
Sonny Liston (yes)
Muhammad Ali
Joe Frazier (yes) -- NOT TALKING ABOUT MATCH-UP
Larry Holmes
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield (maybe)
Lennox Lewis (maybe)






In my opinion Foreman was a border-line top 10 fighter based on his 1970s career.

No way did Dempsey, Tunney or Pattterson accomplish more at heavyweight than Foreman. That's ridiculous. Dempsey defended his title 5 times in seven years. And the only truly top notch fighter he fought, he lost to. Dempsey never beat anybody on Joe Frazier's level. He lost to fighters like Willie Meehan. Not to mention he never fought Harry Wills. That would be like Foreman not fighting Norton. Tunney doesnt have enough wins at heavyweight to rate over Foreman. And Patterson got knocked out twice as heavyweight champion. He was knocked out twice in the first by Liston. None of those fighters careers surpass Foremans as a heavyweight. Or even match it. Theres nothing borderline about Foreman being top 10 unless you're using different standards for him that you're not using for other fighters.

Calilloyd
12-24-2009, 11:22 PM
I've never really liked making hard and fast top 10s. There's a whole lot of problem making them. The biggest problem I face are match-ups. I'm a believer in "styles makes fights." I think that Marciano would give Ali problems in the same way that Frazier gave Ali problems. But does that mean that Marciano was better than Ali. Hell No. So Marciano would be below Ali. I think that Foreman would always KO Frazier, but does that make him better? No. Frazier and Marciano (IMHO) would always give Louis and Ali problems, but Ali and Louis would beat the clubbing, wide-armed Foreman. I hate ranking fighters by match-ups. Too problematic and ultimately we'll never know.

I place Foreman as a top 10, but barely. In my mind Jack Johnson, Jack Dempsey, Joe Louis, Muhammad Ali are definately better than George Foreman. They are -- in my opinion -- definately top 5 heavyweights.

But there are at least 5 or 6 other fighters -- if not more -- who are borderline top 10 heavyweights with Foreman. Jim Jeffries, Rocky Marciano, Larry Holmes, Mike Tyson and George Foreman are top 10 fighters. But a case can be made for Jersey Joe, Floyd Patterson, Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis.

I think Jersey Joe would beat Foreman -- but as said before I don't like judging TOP 10 lists by who would beat who.

No way. Jersey Joe would go any time Foreman connected. Jersy Joe would be giving away too m uch size and strength. Walcott was knocked out by Abe Simon. So how is going to beat Foreman?

bojangles1987
12-25-2009, 08:18 AM
I don't know, he basically would be like Tyson to me if he hadn't come back, a guy that is an ATG heavyweight just because of what he did combined with his immense ability. Maybe as far as resume he wouldn't make top 10 but I couldn't name 10 heavyweights I would pick over 70's George Foreman.

bklynboy
12-27-2009, 01:01 PM
No way did Dempsey, Tunney or Pattterson accomplish more at heavyweight than Foreman. That's ridiculous. Dempsey defended his title 5 times in seven years. And the only truly top notch fighter he fought, he lost to. Dempsey never beat anybody on Joe Frazier's level. He lost to fighters like Willie Meehan. Not to mention he never fought Harry Wills. That would be like Foreman not fighting Norton. Tunney doesnt have enough wins at heavyweight to rate over Foreman. And Patterson got knocked out twice as heavyweight champion. He was knocked out twice in the first by Liston. None of those fighters careers surpass Foremans as a heavyweight. Or even match it. Theres nothing borderline about Foreman being top 10 unless you're using different standards for him that you're not using for other fighters.

Regarding Jack Dempsey and other early fighters:

It***8217;s hard to judge fighters from the 1950s with grainy film that doesn***8217;t catch the details and close to impossible to judge fighters from the 1920s and earlier when the film was hurky-jerky.

So how do we judge Jack Dempsey and others from that era? I take the opinion of people, especially professionals, who saw both them and later fighters who we have a better understanding of.

In the 30s, 40s and 50s there were many people who said that Jack Dempsey was perhaps the best ever. These were men who saw Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, Sharkey, Max Baer, Primo Carnera, Max Schmelling, Joe Louis, Jersey Joe Walcott, Ezzard Charles, and Marciano.

Even as late as the 1970s Nat Fleischer, Bert Sugar and others rated him above Joe Louis. Dude, I don***8217;t know. The film sucks so we can***8217;t tell from the film. One camera, to far away, with too low a resolution and not enough frames per second to be able to know what***8217;s happening.

Regarding ducking Harry Wills and not fighting enough as a champion; the people back then took that into consideration. It***8217;s hard enough to know if Mayweather is ducking Pacquaio, or had avoided Margarito, let alone really know what happened 80 years ago.

Regarding Tunney and Patterson I agree with you. I would put Foreman above both of them, that***8217;s why I put them in the maybe list. Nonetheless I***8217;ve heard many speak quite eloquently about both, putting them as definite TOP 10 fighters.

bklynboy
12-27-2009, 01:23 PM
No way did Dempsey, Tunney or Pattterson accomplish more at heavyweight than Foreman. That's ridiculous. Dempsey defended his title 5 times in seven years. And the only truly top notch fighter he fought, he lost to. Dempsey never beat anybody on Joe Frazier's level. He lost to fighters like Willie Meehan. Not to mention he never fought Harry Wills. That would be like Foreman not fighting Norton. Tunney doesnt have enough wins at heavyweight to rate over Foreman. And Patterson got knocked out twice as heavyweight champion. He was knocked out twice in the first by Liston. None of those fighters careers surpass Foremans as a heavyweight. Or even match it. Theres nothing borderline about Foreman being top 10 unless you're using different standards for him that you're not using for other fighters.

My previous post was getting long so I split this into two posts.

Foreman was a monster who intimidated his opponents and, in many cases, won before either fighter stepped into the ring, in much the same way as Liston did a generation earlier and Tyson did a generation later.

He destroyed people with his power but I think that Jersey Joe would defeat him much the same way Hopkins defeated Pavlik. The wide punches would not hit clean; Foreman would miss badly and get hit by two or three shots; rounds would go by and Foreman would get frustrated and run out of gas and be pummeled in the last few rounds. I’m not saying that Foreman couldn’t learn to fight differently – after all he did. If the Foreman who fought Moorer could be combined with the Foreman would destroyed Frazier then we’re talking about a definite TOP 5 if not the GOAT.

This is all to say that I can see one easily having Foreman at 8, 9, 10 on ones all-time list (I do) and it's not inconceivable for Foreman to be off the list.

Here's Burt Sugar from 1991.

Jack Dempsey
Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Gene Tunney
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
Larry Holmes
Sonny Liston
Mike Tyson

Foreman is not on the TOP 10 list. Now, I don't agree with this list, but so what? Burt Sugar is a knowledgeable man. I put it here to show that knowledgeable people put Dempsey and Tunney high on their list and Foreman isn't even on it.

bklynboy
12-27-2009, 01:45 PM
[/B]

No way. Jersey Joe would go any time Foreman connected. Jersy Joe would be giving away too m uch size and strength. Walcott was knocked out by Abe Simon. So how is going to beat Foreman?


Yeah, that's the problem with ATG match-ups. It's possible that I rate Walcott higher than I should. I remember my uncles and their friends talking about him and Archie Moore as the craftiest fighters ever; that Marciano and Liston had more power, Ali more speed, etc... but Walcott would defeat you with his head. When Foreman came up for his second run I started to understand even more this idea of craftiness. You might not have the speed, the reflexes but you have a ring guile that makes you tough to beat. I'm seeing that again in Hopkins. Now experience doesn't mean everything of course. Holmes had experience and some guile but it didn't help him against Tyson.

I just went back to boxrec to check up that fight. He fought that 3 weeks after his previous fight. This is not an excuse, but a reality for that period, lots of fighters were better than their record indicates. The favored fighters were able to fight on their time-table. The others literally took fights to put food on the table, sometimes with little to no preparation.