As of the Roy Jones loss (which followed on the heels of the Lennox Lewis retirement, the Evander Holyfield degeneration, the Darius Michaejewski loss, the Mike Tyson losses, and the De La Hoya loss) it is official that the old men who so long held boxing in their strangle grip and tantalized fans with their fights are done. Unfortunately, it has not happened the way it has in the past. Great champions have not replaced great champions. Indeed, the time for champions to replace other champions was probably about 6 or 7 years ago. It has actually gotten to the point where great champions are losing to fighters who are relatively average in many respects. Even Vitali Klitchko is simply too old. He is nothing but a transition champion waiting for another Mike Tyson or Cassius Clay or even Evander Holyfield to rocket up the ranks and depose him from the throne.

agreed. boxing is definitely heading for a lull. The signs are all there.

The media champions like Jones and Oscar are gone now. Say what he wants, Oscar is not going to draw a million people on a PPV no matter who he fights. I don't think it was the body shot that did it as much as his reaction to it. He should have sucked it up a little and not shown so much pain. Combine that with the fact that an unheralded Sturm beat him up like a schoolgirl and the judges still gave him the win and his draw is over.

Jones KO'd twice in a row has ended his career at long last.

The heavyweight division has no "real" champion.

Vitali has proven he's tough, but he still has that Chris Byrd loss hanging over him. He quit in the middle of a fight e was winning because his shoulder hurt. wtf????

Chris Byrd lost to Oquendo regardless of what the judges said. He's not a money draw because he's not exciting to watch at all.

Lamon Brester? I don't think he will hold up against a real heavyweight fighter. Assuming one comes along.

John Ruiz... Here's someone I can't seem to get a handle on. Roy picked him to fight because he's plodding and slow. He's definitely tough, but easy to point against if you have any handspeed whatsoever.

What a dark day for boxing.

agreed. boxing is definitely heading for a lull. The signs are all there.

The media champions like Jones and Oscar are gone now. Say what he wants, Oscar is not going to draw a million people on a PPV no matter who he fights. I don't think it was the body shot that did it as much as his reaction to it. He should have sucked it up a little and not shown so much pain. Combine that with the fact that an unheralded Sturm beat him up like a schoolgirl and the judges still gave him the win and his draw is over.

Jones KO'd twice in a row has ended his career at long last.

The heavyweight division has no "real" champion.

Vitali has proven he's tough, but he still has that Chris Byrd loss hanging over him. He quit in the middle of a fight e was winning because his shoulder hurt. wtf????

Chris Byrd lost to Oquendo regardless of what the judges said. He's not a money draw because he's not exciting to watch at all.

Lamon Brester? I don't think he will hold up against a real heavyweight fighter. Assuming one comes along.

John Ruiz... Here's someone I can't seem to get a handle on. Roy picked him to fight because he's plodding and slow. He's definitely tough, but easy to point against if you have any handspeed whatsoever.

What a dark day for boxing.

i agree but hey , miguel cotto , the return of tito , mayorga crazyness , floyd mayweather and even ricky hatton all make for futures stars and or superfights.

the loss of "too sharp" is a sign too , the guy was the most skilled fighter of this generation.

i also have to add that I hate it when people take things away from fighters after they are relics. People watch Evander Holyfield and say "this guy was always second rate) they watch Jones and De La Hoya and say "this man is overrated". Its disgraceful. NO people Jones would not ahve been beaten by Tarver or Johnson or anyone else when he was in his prime. They are just not in the same league.

Vitali saved his career he was smart.

I have plenty to look forward to. I will be interested in Vitali and how he will defend his belts. I look forward to seeing what Toney will do in the HW division. I'm looking forward to Miguel Cotto's takeover of boxing. :)

I also want to see how Morales/Barrera/Pac/JMM organize their fights amongst each other.

there are some exciting younger fighters out there, but it will take them a few more years to develop to the exciting levels that we have seen this year.

Manny Pacquiao and Ricky Hatton are both exciting fighters, but I kinda think Manny was exposed a little in the fight with Marquez. Then he blamed it on his socks? wtf?

Vitali saved his career he was smart.

Part of the original German fanbase speaks?
I think that Vitali has good skills. I think he would have beaten Lewis had the fight been allowed to continue, but that fight with Byrd sort of spelled out where his heart lies.
He was well ahead in that fight and could have continued to fight one-handed and won the fight, even if he lost the last 3 rounds. There was no danger of Chris Byrd knocking him out.
There was little danger, with only 9 minutes left to fight, that he would have injured his shoulder irreparably in that fight. He doesn't have the heart to fight through pain.
Before you say it, yes I saw how badly his face was cut vs Lewis, but cuts to the face like that, while terrible to look at, aren't really all that painful.
He should have continued on in that fight and to quit because of a twinge in the shoulder is inexcusable in a heavyweight champion. How many chamions have fought with broken hands, broken jaws, pulled muscles, etc, etc, etc, and still gone on to have a career?

there are some exciting younger fighters out there, but it will take them a few more years to develop to the exciting levels that we have seen this year.

Manny Pacquiao and Ricky Hatton are both exciting fighters, but I kinda think Manny was exposed a little in the fight with Marquez. Then he blamed it on his socks? wtf?



Part of the original German fanbase speaks?
I think that Vitali has good skills. I think he would have beaten Lewis had the fight been allowed to continue, but that fight with Byrd sort of spelled out where his heart lies.
He was well ahead in that fight and could have continued to fight one-handed and won the fight, even if he lost the last 3 rounds. There was no danger of Chris Byrd knocking him out.
There was little danger, with only 9 minutes left to fight, that he would have injured his shoulder irreparably in that fight. He doesn't have the heart to fight through pain.
Before you say it, yes I saw how badly his face was cut vs Lewis, but cuts to the face like that, while terrible to look at, aren't really all that painful.
He should have continued on in that fight and to quit because of a twinge in the shoulder is inexcusable in a heavyweight champion. How many chamions have fought with broken hands, broken jaws, pulled muscles, etc, etc, etc, and still gone on to have a career?

There is a difference between those injuries and a torn rotator cuff which had he continued fighting with could have ruined his career.

Part of the original German fanbase speaks?

What a complete ****tard.....

How many chamions have fought with broken hands, broken jaws, pulled muscles, etc, etc, etc, and still gone on to have a career?
Jesus Chavez fought Erik Morales with one arm.

fighting with broken hands doesn't stand a chance of ending a boxer's career? A torn bicep?

A torn rotator cuff isn't a debilitating injury. All it takes is time to heal, and rarely surgery.

Most rotator cuff problems are treated without surgery. Early problems usually resolve with home treatment, such as ice and resting the shoulder. Physical therapy may also help. Medications to reduce inflammation and relieve pain may be recommended.

Symptoms that appear to be related to impingement are usually first treated with conservative home treatment measures and rehabilitation techniques. If this treatment does not sufficiently reduce symptoms, surgery may be considered.1

If a partial or complete rotator cuff tear is suspected, treatment will depend upon the amount of degeneration that is present. Surgery may be the first treatment choice for a young person who injures or tears an otherwise healthy cuff. A young person will usually have little or no degeneration of the rotator cuff, which makes surgery likely to repair the problem successfully. In addition, the rotator cuff usually heals well following the procedure, resulting in overall improved function. However, most people over age 25 with rotator cuff problems have some degree of degeneration complicating treatment decisions. For these people, home treatment and physical therapy are often recommended before surgery is considered.

Surgery can repair a tear of the rotator cuff, but it cannot reverse problems that occur with advanced degeneration, such as the accumulation of scar tissue and tendons that are tough and fibrous. Physical therapy benefits most people with degeneration, whether or not they have surgery.

Again, he was ahead on all 3 cards, the least of which had him 5 points ahead. 9 minutes, minimize the use of the arm as much as possible, maybe even lose those rounds and you still win while protecting the injury as much as possible. That's what a real champion would do, anyway...

What a complete ****tard.....
no insult was intended, but I've noticed that a significant number of the original German fanbase seems to feel the K Bros can do no wrong.

Apparently you don't watch very much baseball.

apparently you don't know the difference between a punch, which requires limited rotation of the shoulder, and a throw, which often requires full rotation.

2 different sports, 2 different actions, 2 different consequences.

But you're right. I find baseball almost as fun to watch as curling

no insult was intended, but I've noticed that a significant number of the original German fanbase seems to feel the K Bros can do no wrong.
I am an American and his career would have been over if he didn't throw in the towel: he had 4 hours of surgery, 6 months of daily rehab and has a very large scar there. My brother-in-law's professional baseball career was ruined by rotator cuff problems even after 4 surgeries. Maybe he is a quitter as well....

Either way Vitali never was able to gain back the power that he had before it.

apparently you don't know the difference between a punch, which requires limited rotation of the shoulder, and a throw, which often requires full rotation.

Maybe if you punch like a girl this might be true..... :confused:

jones was quick as hell.. he just dont got know fight left,, he aint old phyically but maybe mentally.. he got so much damn money he dont got nothin to fight for.. hopkins dont look too old to me .... tyson i think will reclaim the belts and holyfield got beat by an ali type fiight huge mismatch techniacally in james toney and toney is 36 so your very wrong goloata looks better then he ever has at 36 lewis was at his best against tyson at 36 the thirtys is the prime of knowledge and athletism combined..the guy who just knocked jones out looked better then i ever seen him at 35... this post is rediculous tarver is in his prime at 35 ,, you can not be serious lol... in this sense wisdoms kills... i think delahoya didnt know what he was gettin into i think he should fight pretty boy floyyd.. and i like him to win that...but jones is done he never was good technically .. he sux technically.. i agree jones is done he should of stayed at heavyweight to get his ass beat at least then he would of never lost to a light heavy and his speed would kill even more.. jones is a fool

study the mechanics of both actions.

Vitali is a straight puncher for the most part. he doesn't loop a lot of punches. never has.

Even in a wide left hook, the shoulder goes through a quarter rotation, max.

Almost any throw in baseball requires at least 50% rotation, except between the bases. It's a wider arc, larger range of motion and uses more of the muscles and tendons that comprize the rotator cuff. It's a much more debilitating injury for a baseball player than for a boxer.

It doesn't take much to see this if you're willing to.

Vitali is probably the best heavyweight out there right now, I just don't think he has what it takes to be considered a great champion. I honestly hope he proves me wrong.

wlad skills are supier to vitali especially his power and speed... he just has to learn his own style.. i think he needs to stand up and fight like vitali.. emanual steward can teach agility .. they gotta stand up stiff and tall

That's because you haven't seen very many Vitali fights. They are all on their site. Vitali used to throw a devastating right hook.

Again, limited rotation of the shoulder.

I'm not saying that he can't fight. I'm saying he has yet to display the heart I expect of a champion.

Besides, why would a left shoulder injury affect his right hook?

You have never seriously played any sport. You haven't the slightest idea of reality. You are completely hung up on the "rotator" part of rotator cuff. When one is unlucky enough to have a serious rotator cuff injury you can't even lift your arm away from your body. When a physician checks for this injury he will have you stand with your arms perpendicular to your body, he then takes his index finger and applies pressure to the top of each wrist while asking you to resist. Against Byrd Vitali could no longer hold his left arm up to parry,throw a jab or a hook. He could only flail about with it. He was smart enough to retire from the fight. His present SUCCESSFUL career vindicates his WISE but UNPOPULAR choice back then.

P.S. A pitcher doesn't have someone throwing punches at his face.....

Again, limited rotation of the shoulder.

I'm not saying that he can't fight. I'm saying he has yet to display the heart I expect of a champion.

Besides, why would a left shoulder injury affect his right hook?

He fights a lot more cautious now so he doesn't tear something again.

You have never seriously played any sport. You haven't the slightest idea of reality. You are completely hung up on the "rotator" part of rotator cuff. When one is unlucky enough to have a serious rotator cuff injury you can't even lift your arm away from your body. When a physician checks for this injury he will have you stand with your arms perpendicular to your body, he then takes his index finger and applies pressure to the top of each wrist while asking you to resist. Against Byrd Vitali could no longer hold his left arm up to parry,throw a jab or a hook. He could only flail about with it. He was smart enough to retire from the fight. His present SUCCESSFUL career vindicates his WISE but UNPOPULAR choice back then.

P.S. A pitcher doesn't have someone throwing punches at his face.....

What about if someone charges the mound.

You know nothing about me, but you can say I have never played any sport? I've played sports all my life, all of the contact variety. I have 2 ****ed knees, arthritis building in my left shoulder and 4 questionable disks to prove it.
Guess what? I still play football almost everyweekend with my friends, I still play on a softball team, I dive, I skydive and I work out daily.
I will likely suffer greatly for this in my old age, but oh well. At least I enjoy it now :)

Thank you for the medical information on how a doctor diagnoses a rotator cuff injury, but I already knew that.

Physically, V made the proper decision. No sense in causing it further injury. Financially, he made the wrong decision, and the decision he made probably did more damage to his career than the injury would have had he gone on and fought. Because of his decision, he will always have the ghost of it hanging over his head, people like me will always question his heart until he proves otherwise, and he will likely never enjoy a reign as a "popular" champion.
A sad as it is, the reality of boxing is that it's as much a business as it is a sport. He screwed himself in the business portion of it.

You know nothing about me, but you can say I have never played any sport? I've played sports all my life, all of the contact variety. I have 2 ****ed knees, arthritis building in my left shoulder and 4 questionable disks to prove it.
Guess what? I still play football almost everyweekend with my friends, I still play on a softball team, I dive, I skydive and I work out daily.
I will likely suffer greatly for this in my old age, but oh well. At least I enjoy it now :)

Thank you for the medical information on how a doctor diagnoses a rotator cuff injury, but I already knew that.

Physically, V made the proper decision. No sense in causing it further injury. Financially, he made the wrong decision, and the decision he made probably did more damage to his career than the injury would have had he gone on and fought. Because of his decision, he will always have the ghost of it hanging over his head, people like me will always question his heart until he proves otherwise, and he will likely never enjoy a reign as a "popular" champion.
A sad as it is, the reality of boxing is that it's as much a business as it is a sport. He screwed himself in the business portion of it.

Apparently you missed the HBO poll after the Vitali v. Sanders fight on who the true heavyweight champion is.

P.S. A pitcher doesn't have someone throwing punches at his face.....

and this relates to a rotator cuff injury how, exactly?

There's no doubt that V is the true heavyweight champion, but he is champion in an era when there are no serious contenders left.

Part of what it takes to be a popular champion is how many asses you can put in seats and how many fringe fans can tell someone anything about you.

Anyone with enough fan rabidity to be on this site will watch him fight, but how many casual fans will go out of their way to see him?

I noticed you never boxed...maybe that's the problem. Falling out of an airplane and drinking beer with middle aged married men hardly qualifies as serious competition but I get your point. I can sense who is truly a hard person, Vitali is a hard man. He COULD have just been an EX-BOXER now by not stopping the fight and not the present day WORLD CHAMPION so I really don't see how any sane person would be so contrary to his choice.

Well HBO's two highest rated boxing programs in 2003 were Lewis v. Klitschko and Klitschko v. Johnson. I also remember MSG and Staples Center being pretty full for his last 2 fights.

Actually, I work out at a boxing gym. I'm sort of a moving punching bag. I know my limits, though, and I know I'm not good enough to compete on a world level.

Also, I don't drink, and almost all my friends are in their mid-20s.

What, exactly, is your sports resume? Can I see your ring record somewhere online?

and this relates to a rotator cuff injury how, exactly?

It relates by the simple fact that in an orthodox fighter the left hand is the first parrying line of defense! He injured his left shoulder. His arm was reflexively flailing at Byrd's punches furthering the severity of the injury. This isn't Chinese arithmetic what the **** is the problem here?

All he had to do was protect himself for 3 rounds. If he had heart and skills, he could have done easily one-handed. Switch to southpaw and try to use that thunderous right as a jab for 9 minutes, move, do something, don't just quit.

Vitali is starting to get older. Even back then his time to shine was limited. Sure, he's the recognized World Champion right now, but who is going to remember who he is 20 years from now? If he had gone on and finished a fight he was WINNING, found the desire in his heart to be a great champion rather than a belt-holder, how might history have changed in his favor? How might he be remembered in history? How much sooner would his fight with Lewis come? How much more highly regarded would he be?
Yes, there is a chance that he could have been injured worse, but there is just a great a chance that he would have recovered just as well and possibly become legend. He blew that. I don't see how you don't understand my point. Want to just butt heads and call it a draw?

Well HBO's two highest rated boxing programs in 2003 were Lewis v. Klitschko and Klitschko v. Johnson. I also remember MSG and Staples Center being pretty full for his last 2 fights.
Lewis was the draw in the first fight, and LA always sells out heavyweight fights.

Fights in MSG generally sell out, too, now that it's a venue again. When Johnson walked into the ring that night, the first thought to hit my mind was, "holy ****! it's the Pillsbury Homeboy!"
Johnson, at that time, was considered to be a heavy prospect in the division, so he brought his own part of the draw to that fight, too.

I think you are confusing the fantasy league world with reality.

I think you are confusing the fantasy league world with reality.
that's the best you can come up with?

the normal route for debate is to counter an argument with your own facts/opinions, unless you have no counter.

while I understand that my first post to you could have been seen as insulting, it was not my intent and I apologized. You have continued to insult, question who and what I am, without offering anything to lend weight to your opinion in this argument.
You questioned my background, I answered. You insulted.
I questioned yours, you had no answer, you insulted.

It's quite obvious that we have different opinions, while I try to support mine with both facts and further opinions, you have no answers but childish insults.
I have said, quite clearly, that I understand your opinion, I just don't share it.
Unless you can do more than insult, I see no point in carrying on this discussion with you.

Are you sure that you are not on a handicapped intramural debating team? Here are the facts: He had an injury. He withdrew from a fight. He had surgery. He had rehabilitation. He is now the champion. Although the injury he suffered has ended hundreds of successful professional careers you would rather parse words and dollop out very unclever sophistry to cloud the issue into some type of mythical gestalten narrative more indicative of the Aeneid . Now who is dealing with facts and who is dealing in bull****?

that's the best you can come up with?

the normal route for debate is to counter an argument with your own facts/opinions, unless you have no counter.

while I understand that my first post to you could have been seen as insulting, it was not my intent and I apologized. You have continued to insult, question who and what I am, without offering anything to lend weight to your opinion in this argument.
You questioned my background, I answered. You insulted.
I questioned yours, you had no answer, you insulted.

It's quite obvious that we have different opinions, while I try to support mine with both facts and further opinions, you have no answers but childish insults.
I have said, quite clearly, that I understand your opinion, I just don't share it.
Unless you can do more than insult, I see no point in carrying on this discussion with you.

VB, Don't worry, it's the way Nickledick, deals with his childhood, which is full of child molestation, dead mothers, and sexual fantasies about Vitalia Klitcshko.

As traceylee says Nig****in, is a jackass, who has nothing better to do then pick on Spelling Mistakes.
If only the world was as cool as him.

Don't worry about him, he's a ****ing Jackass Pinhead.

Random capitalization has begun......resistance is futile.

Random capitalization has begun......resistance is futile.

Oh Yes, It's on!.

Bring It!

Are you sure that you are not on a handicapped intramural debating team? Here are the facts: He had an injury. He withdrew from a fight. He had surgery. He had rehabilitation. He is now the champion. Although the injury he suffered has ended hundreds of successful professional careers you would rather parse words and dollop out very unclever sophistry to cloud the issue into some type of mythical gestalten narrative more indicative of the Aeneid . Now who is dealing with facts and who is dealing in bull****?
Again, rather than dealing in facts, you hand out insults. This time you even broke out the dictionary. I'm proud of you. claps all around for Nicht.

Yes, he had an injury. Yes, he withdrew from a fight. Yes, he is now one of four world champions.

As I have no facts to back up my opinion that he could have continued, you have none to back up your opinion that had he done so it would have ended his career.

My argument is that had he continued on to win a fight that he was going to win anyway, he could have possibly come to the forefront of the heavyweight division earlier in his career, when there were still people out there to make compelling fights with, and become a historic champion rather than someone who holds a belt in a division now depleted of talent.
He weighed the probablity of legend against the possibility of a foreshortened career and chose in favor of a mediocre career. Everything I have read and heard in the boxing world leads to the fact that he is considered the best of 4 people who wouldn't hold the crowns if there was any serious talent left in the division.

By the way, I have yet to see you post anything regarding your sports background or ring record. Is it because the only sport you engage in is insulting via the internet?

By the way, I have yet to see you post anything regarding your sports background or ring record. Is it because the only sport you engage in is insulting via the internet? Whoaaaahhh there ponyboy you'll have to ask me out to dinner first! Take me to the Greek Halls of History Diner! Where legendary consumables are forged from the hands of mere mortals for the GODS of GLUTTONY!!!! When we clink water glasses together it will be a MONUMENTAL CLASH OF THE TITANS! An ALL TIME edible spectacle so fantastic that life itself will pale everlasting whence it ends!

in other words, you have nothing to offer in that regard either.

have a nice life :)

Whoaaaahhh there ponyboy you'll have to ask me out to dinner first! Take me to the Greek Halls of History Diner! Where legendary consumables are forged from the hands of mere mortals for the GODS of GLUTTONY!!!! When we clink water glasses together it will be a MONUMENTAL CLASH OF THE TITANS! An ALL TIME edible spectacle so fantastic that life itself will pale everlasting whence it ends!

This may be the most worthless post ever posted on Boxingscene.com.

Don't be so hard on yourself O.G. I think my quote moderated the worthless stupidity of your post.

No Nicht, your post was worthless. It was a waste of your energy. Never do it again.

O.G. when I want clarity I'll ignore you. When I want the mindless amusement of an organ grinder's little buddy you are at the top of the list. Ok there little fella?

You know nothing about me, but you can say I have never played any sport? I've played sports all my life, all of the contact variety. I have 2 ****ed knees, arthritis building in my left shoulder and 4 questionable disks to prove it.
Guess what? I still play football almost everyweekend with my friends, I still play on a softball team, I dive, I skydive and I work out daily.
I will likely suffer greatly for this in my old age, but oh well. At least I enjoy it now :)

Thank you for the medical information on how a doctor diagnoses a rotator cuff injury, but I already knew that.

Physically, V made the proper decision. No sense in causing it further injury. Financially, he made the wrong decision, and the decision he made probably did more damage to his career than the injury would have had he gone on and fought. Because of his decision, he will always have the ghost of it hanging over his head, people like me will always question his heart until he proves otherwise, and he will likely never enjoy a reign as a "popular" champion.
A sad as it is, the reality of boxing is that it's as much a business as it is a sport. He screwed himself in the business portion of it.

No because I ahve the sneaking suspicion that for a guy like Vitali, being called a quiter just makes him strive harder. I know that just sounds like stupid jargon but I honestly believe that Vitali is one of those treuly DRIVEN fighters. He is not like his brother, he never runs out of gas and he has a damn good chin. In my oppinion, if vitali ever reaches greatness, if he is ever more than jsut a big, tough guy, it will be partially because of his loss to byrd.

Yeah which makes boxing in big trouble because there is no upcoming big names.

And dont tell me trinidad will be around for long

I hope that's true, because we need a dominant heavyweight to keep boxing a viable sport. The only problem he will have now is lack of real competition to prove his greatness.
He will also need another Byrd-like situation to prove he wants it badly enough to risk all.

Yep it's a bleak outlook for boxing. However as a hardcore fan of the sport there are some deep divisions out there that is more exciting than the ones Roy and Hops came from when they were in their prime. Yes it's a cliche but it's these unscrupulous promoters that's f**kin' it up for themselves and the fighters, I mean you lose the fans there's nothing more to corrupt. It's been brought up a million times but it really starts at the grassroots level. We have to get kids back in the tent, the talent pool just isn't big enough. These young phenoms are bombing out, stay in the freakin' amateurs( I can't blame 'em though, thousands of dollars being waved in front of me who wouldn't bite). I was still young when boxing had it goin' on in the 80's, but the boxing community needs to take a page from that era, cause it just isn't happenin' the whole attitude of "taking our money and run" is gonna hurt everybody in the long run except King, Arum, and so on....

Arturo Gatti fought Micky Ward with a broken hand.