what are the 2 best martial arts to be diciplined in? [Archive]

Spartacus Sully

11-11-2009, 03:28 AM

Lol what successful mixed martial artists do you see using any of your styles listed.

none of course im pretty sure the audience couldn't handle the blood and violence. unfortunately those styles arnt ways to simply restrain some one with out hurting them like BJJ. which never made sense to me, like say some one has a knife pointed at me well i could grip up their arm wrestle around with them, assuming their some what large i might have a difficult time, finally get them on the ground then do some type of arm bar till they submit or i break their arm. as opposed to a quick (im not sure of the name but i think its called phoenix eye where you have your index finger knuckle pointed out with your thumb backing it) phoenix eye to the inside of their arm at the elbow as you knock their hand away with your other hand then step in for a chop to the throat, completely incapacitating the person all in a matter of a second perhaps even less if your good.

do you guys even learn how to punch and defend punches in bjj? or is it just locks and stuff and as far as defending and punching do you only learn that sparring?

DiLLiNGER

11-11-2009, 05:15 AM

wing tsun (not wing chun)
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xzworks

11-11-2009, 05:20 AM

Judo. since most fight (street fights) involving grabbing the clothes and wrestling to the ground..

BlueberryMuffin

11-11-2009, 06:35 AM

tough choice...

You definitely need a ground game, bjj would allow you to finish the fight on the ground while wrestling would allow you to dominate position. As far as stand up goes boxing would give you great footwork, teach you how to move your head and make your hands lethal, but Muay thai looks tempting as well.

vinnie7731

11-11-2009, 07:11 AM

none of course im pretty sure the audience couldn't handle the blood and violence. unfortunately those styles arnt ways to simply restrain some one with out hurting them like BJJ. which never made sense to me, like say some one has a knife pointed at me well i could grip up their arm wrestle around with them, assuming their some what large i might have a difficult time, finally get them on the ground then do some type of arm bar till they submit or i break their arm. as opposed to a quick (im not sure of the name but i think its called phoenix eye where you have your index finger knuckle pointed out with your thumb backing it) phoenix eye to the inside of their arm at the elbow as you knock their hand away with your other hand then step in for a chop to the throat, completely incapacitating the person all in a matter of a second perhaps even less if your good.

do you guys even learn how to punch and defend punches in bjj? or is it just locks and stuff and as far as defending and punching do you only learn that sparring?

i took some bjj classes for a while and there was not much time spent on striking. but i am guessing if you are with gracie jiu jitsu in nyc or a big name like that fighting for a team, they spend more time on stiking and have boxing coaches ect..

Yaman

11-11-2009, 11:52 AM

The most complete 2 would imo be;
Judo: excellent grappling in clinches and takedowns, and you'll know submissions as well. Judo is excellent for grappling.
Muay Thai enables you to be skilled at basicelly every strike. But having great Boxing skills seems to be important as the best in MMA all have great hands..

kymira

11-11-2009, 12:17 PM

If I only could pick two, then It would be: Muay Thai + Wrestling

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:03 PM

Kung Fu and Boxing.

People keep basing limitations on which art to study off of the limited amount of MMA history there has been. Whereas there is a wealth of history beforehand they are ignoring.

kymira

11-11-2009, 01:08 PM

Kung Fu and Boxing.

People keep basing limitations on which art to study off of the limited amount of MMA history there has been. Whereas there is a wealth of history beforehand they are ignoring.

kung fu???

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:10 PM

kung fu???

yep.

Bagua to be more specific.

Open your mind

Do not allow...oh... 30-40 years of precedent, at best, offset thousands of years.

You all just haven't seen a true kung fu master in MMA yet. They are a rare breed.

kaps

11-11-2009, 01:12 PM

LOL @ TMA's. They're good for forms and ****, but in reality, it doesn't work. www.bullshido.com

Learn somthing...

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:14 PM

LOL @ TMA's. They're good for forms and ****, but in reality, it doesn't work. www.bullshido.com

Learn somthing...

That's why they took their system to actual life and death combat before the advent of gun powder?

Please. MMA is just playing around in a sandbox compared to that.

Even Bruce Lee, your godfather of MMA, was 80% TMA

kaps

11-11-2009, 01:16 PM

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:19 PM

But there have been better Martial arts invented since then, and even Bruce Lee, my so called god father of mma said himself. "If a person Wrestles for 1 year and boxes for 2 he would defeat 80% of Traditional Martial artists".

That's because traditional martial artists have gotten soft.. Most guys that do it..like that guy that lost to Royce Gracie at the Gracie gym, had horrible form. The others are too casual with it, they don't train hardcore enough.

I'm talking about the top 5-10%

Y'all ain't seen none of them.

Name a kung fu practitioner that has done MMA that was within the top 5%, so I can laugh at you

kaps

11-11-2009, 01:29 PM

Where are these Kung Fu rankings?

Check out the link I left you, what you will see is TMA guys who make crazy claims getting pwned over and over.

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:33 PM

haha where are the rankings indeed.

We don't do rankings in TMA... we do lineages.

Alot of these guys have false, wack, or made up lineage.

And wack physicality to add insult to injury

I don't care about those overzeaolus TMA guys trying to win over a crowd on a site that is already set to be biased against them..I'm me, and I'm not making wild claims.

Just name me a kung fu guy in MMA, for starters,

We'll go from there.

kaps

11-11-2009, 01:35 PM

I don't know any, mainly because eye gouging and groin shots are illegal....

kaps

11-11-2009, 01:37 PM

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:38 PM

I don't know any, mainly because eye gouging and groin shots are illegal....

Smh.

Kung fu has that in its repertoire, but its not the only tool.

In Bagua, they prefer to take out the knee, actually. That is allowed, yes?

And you want ME to learn something?

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:42 PM

BTW the site doesn't have many TMA's on there, the site seaks out these people making claims and challenges them to back up there claimes in a fight. Most use the same old excuse of "My art is too deadly or dangerous for me too use in a fight." Which makes me wonder why you would learn it in the first place?

So you are witchhunting people with wack, weak, or made up lineages and then crucifying all of TMA ?

Yes there are LOTS of con artists in the MA.

This is well known public domain, fact.

kaps

11-11-2009, 01:44 PM

If it's so good where are the kung fu guys in mma? Why are they not jumping on the opportunity to make some good money and prove that there martial art is the best? BTW how do you take out someones knee when you're on your back with an elbow in your face?
I got no beef with TMA's really. It teaches discipline and some low level self defence such as eye gouging and groin shots. What I got beef with is people who claim it's the best martial art and unbeatable but won't put there money where there mouth is and actually fight to prove it...

kaps

11-11-2009, 01:46 PM

So you are witchhunting people with wack, weak, or made up lineages and then crucifying all of TMA ?

Yes there are LOTS of con artists in the MA.

This is well known public domain, fact.

No, they're witchhunting people who make ridiculous claims such as no touch knockouts and putting out challenges that they have no intentions of backing up, just so they can dupe some poor kid into paying money to learn a martial art that is basically useless. Make since?

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:54 PM

If it's so good where are the kung fu guys in mma? Why are they not jumping on the opportunity to make some good money and prove that there martial art is the best? BTW how do you take out someones knee when you're on your back with an elbow in your face?

You can't hurt anyone's knee from

what is it you call it... full guard?

The idea is to stay on your feet... with... I believe you call it takedown defense.

Kung Fu has it, contrary to popular belief. A mixture of mobility, footwork, low center of gravity, and superb inside fighting skills/sensitivity.

Where you can hurt someones knee from is if they are foolish enough to try standup with you. quick v step to the outside, ducking, deflecting, and blocking any strikes... Side thrust kick to the knee. Done fighter. I notice mma doesn't utilize the side thrust too much, electing for the muay thai type of pendulum kick, which takes longer to throw, and leaves you more open to attack...

I got no beef with TMA's really. It teaches discipline and some low level self defence such as eye gouging and groin shots. What I got beef with is people who claim it's the best martial art and unbeatable but won't put there money where there mouth is and actually fight to prove it...

Its a good question. Most great TMA's have a school and teach, and aren't worried about narcissistic values as long as they can do what they love. They also are very adamant about don't attack unless you or a loved one, is in danger.

See, what you fail to take into account is the philosophy that is ingrained with the training.

MMA lacks that.

Overall, I don't have beef with MMA either. My only problem with it is they took the art and soul out of it, and made it a science/formula.

So... you will have a lot of good fighters that way...but very few legends.

Syf

11-11-2009, 01:55 PM

No, they're witchhunting people who make ridiculous claims such as no touch knockouts and putting out challenges that they have no intentions of backing up, just so they can dupe some poor kid into paying money to learn a martial art that is basically useless. Make since?

no touch knockout is false..made up... as far as I know

so that coincides with what I was saying..

that there are a lot of con artists.

I agree with you there.

But the legitimate top guys, you have never seen in MMA

TBEC2

11-11-2009, 02:06 PM

From a sports perspective i would have to say that wrestling is probably the most important base with some solid muay thai skills, the rest will be easier to develop having those two already working for you.

From a self defense perspective Krav Maga, Kajukenbo and even Brazilian Jujitsu (with gi) are excellent self defense systems.

kswizzy99

11-11-2009, 02:32 PM

easy,

xingyi/bagua/taiji

and anything else.

nobody here knows much about other martial arts it seems. i keep seeing bjj, wrestling, boxing, and mt over and over.

some of u guys need to get out more. there are a helluva lot more options.

I agree. jiu-jitsu was considered a joke until the gracies started using it and winning. karate wasn't taken as seriously as kick-boxing or muay-thai until machida showed ppl that it can be very effective in mma.

I'm sure a lot of disciplines are gonna be introduced into mma that haven't been seen before.

I'm most interested in brazilian capoeira. it would be sick to see that being used in mma.

mrboxer

11-11-2009, 02:38 PM

kaps

11-11-2009, 03:03 PM

kaps

11-11-2009, 03:04 PM

Phenomkidd

11-11-2009, 03:05 PM

I agree. jiu-jitsu was considered a joke until the gracies started using it and winning. karate wasn't taken as seriously as kick-boxing or muay-thai until machida showed ppl that it can be very effective in mma.

I'm sure a lot of disciplines are gonna be introduced into mma that haven't been seen before.

I'm most interested in brazilian capoeira. it would be sick to see that being used in mma.

I doubt that Capoeira will become effective in MMA other than possibly one or two moves. The style itself is flamboyant and is a dance (which it is was to be disguised as such by the slaves who created it).

Karate in MMA was't taken that serious, but Karate itself has faired pretty well in kickboxing (it is a kickboxing style art), you can find some very good practitioners in K-1 (which was made by a karate master). But the style used by the founder and practitioners such as Andy Hug (very good fighter) is a Full Contact style suchs as Kyokushin, Enshin, Seidokaikan (the originating style of K-1), etc. These are different then point-fighting karate style's such as Shotokan Karate (Machida's ORIGINAL Karate style). Traditionally anyway, I assume his family has modified it to be a Full Contact style now, I think its worth noting that his Karate style is now called Machida Karate, signifying its difference.

kaps

11-11-2009, 03:10 PM

I doubt that Capoeira will become effective in MMA other than possibly one or two moves. The style itself is flamboyant and is a dance (which it is was to be disguised as such by the slaves who created it).

Karate in MMA was't taken that serious, but Karate itself has faired pretty well in kickboxing (it is a kickboxing style art), you can find some very good practitioners in K-1 (which was made by a karate master). But the style used by the founder and practitioners such as Andy Hug (very good fighter) is a Full Contact style suchs as Kyokushin, Enshin, Seidokaikan (the originating style of K-1), etc. These are different then point-fighting karate style's such as Machida Karate (which I think is the official term for his style now). Traditionally anyway, I assume his family has modified it to be a Full Contact style now.

GSP also practiced Kyokushin....

Phenomkidd

11-11-2009, 03:20 PM

Never said he didn't?
Also I think wrestling is a far more important skill set in GSP's game.

kaps

11-11-2009, 03:27 PM

Never said he didn't?
Also I think wrestling is a far more important skill set in GSP's game.

I was just adding him to you're list of fighters that used TMAs. I think wrestling is the most important skill set in GSP's game...

Phenomkidd

11-11-2009, 03:29 PM

Oh, I thought I said something wrong when I saw those "..." lol.

kaps

11-11-2009, 03:44 PM

Oh, I thought I said something wrong when I saw those "..." lol.

No it's just a habit of mine....

Left2theliver

11-11-2009, 03:59 PM

in a real life street defense situation
Gun FU, not gung fu but GUN FU

For MMA I like Muay Thai and BJJ, but Muay thai/Wrestling, Boxing/BJJ, Boxing/Wrestling all work.

Left2theliver

11-11-2009, 04:02 PM

GroundSt.Pound

11-11-2009, 04:17 PM

Wrestling + Muay Thai.

Also Sambo is very efficient.

Spartacus Sully

11-11-2009, 04:27 PM

Id say jeet kune do and judo. need mainly standing skill and some kind of ground if it gets there.

Syf

11-11-2009, 04:29 PM

lol @ gun fu. Yeah..that'll beat most anything every time.

yeah, but too bad all this, crane stance horse stance rabbit 1000 punch **** dont work...

crane type stuff is to develop balance

horse is to develop leg strength and good spine alignment/posture..

you don't actually use them in real time application too much.. wtf

but in training and transitioning between movements, yes. Mostly u just use a "Ready stance". The other stances are used to strengthen you in case you are ever twisted into an awkward position..or up on one foot. If you do your stance work in training, then in those situations you won't be as out of your element.

But carry on with your ignorance. Notice I avail myself to know about what I'm talking about...I've watched MMA and know all the categories, and am a boxer as well.

Actually...I am kind if an MMA'er though it pains me to say so. Kung fu and boxing. but im about... 60-55% TMA.. The rest boxing.. or vice versa, depending on the day :lol1:

Spartacus Sully

11-11-2009, 04:36 PM

Horse stance....the mother of all stances.......kinda like you mma guys doing squats cept we are learning to hold the static pose and ground our selfs(grow roots) from it what do you guys lean from your squats? how to get big beefy thighs?

ever try tai chi? better then any leg routine you will ever do.

Syf

11-11-2009, 04:50 PM

ever try tai chi? better then any leg routine you will ever do.

Yessir..!

I been doing Tai Chi once a week or so for about 3 years, to balance out the more external stuff that I study.

I know the whole Yang long form, at least nominally. Sections 1-3. I'm just working on flow of details now, which is an endless procedure!

Good post

DiLLiNGER

11-11-2009, 07:05 PM

one thing is for sure,doesn't matter what martial art you do you should always do boxing on the side,at the end of the day boxing is the most effective art in a street fight.

most people won't be able to use all those moves they learned in a martial art class when they are scared..when fear and confusion hits the brain the best thing to do is to use your boxing because is simple and brutal,left right left right dont stop till he drop.

DiLLiNGER

11-11-2009, 07:06 PM

But i must also add someone who practises wing tsun 4 years or more will beat most people out there.

Sandwich

11-11-2009, 09:32 PM

Muay Thai/Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

Muay Thai/Wrestling would work, but it leaves glaring holes in your game that will be exploited when you fight someone with really good jiu jitsu.

Most Mixed Martial Artists train wrestling, BJJ, Muay Thai, and Boxing. Though there are quite a few who only work on boxing with a little muay thai (need to learn how to defend against these techniques), or who leave out boxing in favour of Muay Thai.

The Slaughter

11-11-2009, 09:54 PM

it all comes down to how good you can put your game together.
if you dont have any ground skills you will lose alot of fights, wrestling is good but you have to learn submissions as well and not just rely on ground and pound.

stand-up skills are just as important, but boxing is nowhere as effective as muay-thai. its pretty easy to defend yourself against a boxer in MMA, you know he will try to land his punches.
muay-thai has many advantages when fighting from a distance(kicks+punches) and even more when clinching(knees+elbows+throws/takedowns).

I stopped fighting almost 1 year ago (new years eve).
I started training muay-thai 21 years ago(12 years old). after 12 years of muay-thai I spend 4 years boxing. some of the guys I trained muay-thai with where starting with MMA at this point and I went to train with them. I decided to start with MMA instead of boxing. My standup skills where better than the other guys coming from different backgrounds, but I needed to work hard on my ground-game so I started doing alot of submission-wrestling and after a while I competed in some grabling and submission tournaments just to get better. a short period I trained BJJ, but that style didnt suit my game as much as submission-wrestling, but most important I learned how to defend against BJJ-fighters.

I have spend 5 years with MMA, but the way I fight doesnt fit ppl coming from wrestling, sambo or BJJ backgrounds ( just to mention a few).
my biggest advantage is my striking of course, but boxing is a very small part of that, its 95% muay-thai.

if you train to become complete as a fighter and you are only allowed to pick 2 diciplines then muay-thai should be your first choice, second choice is not as important as long as you choose something like wrestling, BJJ, sambo or submission-wrestling.

martial arts like wing tsun, tae kwon do and karate(except full contact) is not usefull in todays MMA

Phenomkidd

11-11-2009, 11:17 PM

Dorian

11-11-2009, 11:40 PM

Muay Thai + Wrestling, everything else will develop overtime

gorasikawannabe

11-11-2009, 11:42 PM

boxing and bjj

Wrestling and boxing...
Good ideas, but if you were good enough in boxing you wouldn't need the other stuff! That's what Mayweather means by MMA is for bums who are not good enough for boxing. When a good martial artist (like Vitali) is good enough to box, they usually quit martial arts in pursuit of excellence. The difference with MMA is, they have people like Silva and Kimbo who were not good enough to box!
boxing......only

Boxing and fencing.That's more like it

Phenomkidd

11-11-2009, 11:46 PM

Umm, get out? Boxing is not the end-all martial art.

kaps

11-12-2009, 12:18 AM

Good ideas, but if you were good enough in boxing you wouldn't need the other stuff! That's what Mayweather means by MMA is for bums who are not good enough for boxing. When a good martial artist (like Vitali) is good enough to box, they usually quit martial arts in pursuit of excellence. The difference with MMA is, they have people like Silva and Kimbo who were not good enough to box!

That's more like it

The best boxer in the world would lose a street fight against a Division 3 wrestler 9 out of 10 times guaranteed. Boxing is useless when you're laying on your back. It's a great striking discipline but still lacks everything you need to be a complete fighter, such as takedown and kick defense.

Syf

11-12-2009, 12:27 AM

martial arts like wing tsun, tae kwon do and karate(except full contact) is not usefull in todays MMA

lol

and yet...Machida... one of your champs, is like..60-70% Karate

and how do you know Wing chun wouldn't work

Has there EVER been a wing chun practitioner in MMA?

BG_Knocc_Out

11-12-2009, 12:28 AM

Boxing &/or wrestling.

Hotsoup

11-12-2009, 12:29 AM

Judo and Boxing

Or Submission wrestling & Boxing

BG_Knocc_Out

11-12-2009, 12:30 AM

lol

and yet...Machida... one of your champs, is like..60-70% Karate

and how do you know Wing chun wouldn't work

Has there EVER been a wing chun practitioner in MMA?

He wins fights by being elusive and smart, not his fighting style. Anyone who can implement that trait has a big chance of winning. Plus Machida started out with Shotokan and is humbled by his roots, but he's extensively trained in BJJ, Sumo, and Muay Thai.

Syf

11-12-2009, 12:34 AM

He wins fights by being elusive and smart, not his fighting style. Anyone who can implement that trait has a big chance of winning. Plus Machida started out with Shotokan and is humbled by his roots, but he's extensively trained in BJJ, Sumo, and Muay Thai.

Nah, his strikes are nearly all karate, broham, as is his ready stance..I've watched the fights. Karate has clinching, knees, and kicks too, believe it or not.

as for the rest, that's why I didn't say 100% Karate...

He's about 60-70, though, I'd say. Its Karate he gives a lions share of the credit to in his interviews as well.

Phenomkidd

11-12-2009, 12:34 AM

kaps

11-12-2009, 12:34 AM

lol

and yet...Machida... one of your champs, is like..60-70% Karate

and how do you know Wing chun wouldn't work

Has there EVER been a wing chun practitioner in MMA?

Not true, Machida is a mixed martial artist. He was brought up on karate but still trains in BJJ with the Nog brothers and Muay Thai with Anderson Silva. GSP had a Kyokushin karate base too. Didn't Emin Boztep get tapped out by a Gracie?

kaps

11-12-2009, 12:36 AM

I like Sambo as a base martial art too, it's like a mixture of Judo and Boxing...

Syf

11-12-2009, 12:41 AM

I think his style of karate is Karate's traditional roots (with throws and submissions) modernized with aspects of other styles (Muay Thai, BJJ, etc). How he fights really is his style now. Its no longer a TMA, but "Machida Karate."

This I can go along with for the most part..

But the fact remains he took a TMA and modified it.

So the same can be done for any other art that is not deemed worthy of MMA.

Y'all just haven't seen the right fighter to utilize it yet.

You are basing your reality off a very limited history.

Not true, Machida is a mixed martial artist. He was brought up on karate but still trains in BJJ with the Nog brothers and Muay Thai with Anderson Silva. GSP had a Kyokushin karate base too. Didn't Emin Boztep get tapped out by a Gracie?

How is it not true? I didn't say he was 100% karate..but it is undoubtedly the base he has built his style off of.

Is there footage of this fight between Gracie and Boztep? I can spot a fake so called "25 year" practitioner at a glance..All I need to do is see his physicality and form.

Syf

11-12-2009, 12:47 AM

did a little checking around..his form actually looks pretty decent.

You sure Boztepe was tapped out?

Spartacus Sully

11-12-2009, 12:49 AM

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:01 AM

did a little checking around..his form actually looks pretty decent.

You sure Boztepe was tapped out?

I'm not 100%, I'll check around more, but I believe the story is that he accepted the Gracie challenge and lost to Rorion...

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:05 AM

Dosnt that cung le guy use isnt that kung fu or san shou or something. which is just a modern day martial art thats biased completely off traditional martial arts.

hes doing pretty good 17-0 kick boxing 6-0 mma

Again, he also trains in BJJ and Wrestling. Several fighters come from TMA's but the fact is there isn't a martial art out there that is the end all, the best fighters come from a mix of different disciplines....

Syf

11-12-2009, 01:08 AM

I'm not 100%, I'll check around more, but I believe the story is that he accepted the Gracie challenge and lost to Rorion...

i been googling it a little bit..

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FAEoKut5i14&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FAEoKut5i14&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Yeah, my hunch is this guy didn't get tapped. He's no delucia.

Also, stuff I'm coming across is saying the fight didn't materialize.

Larry Merchant

11-12-2009, 01:10 AM

Running. Getting away from a fight

Larry Merchant

11-12-2009, 01:10 AM

JK ..Sambo... wrestling and boxing

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:16 AM

i been googling it a little bit..

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FAEoKut5i14&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FAEoKut5i14&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

Yeah, my hunch is this guy didn't get tapped. He's no delucia.

Also, stuff I'm coming across is saying the fight didn't materialize.

Yeah, It didn't happen..
http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26953

Spartacus Sully

11-12-2009, 01:19 AM

Again, he also trains in BJJ and Wrestling. Several fighters come from TMA's but the fact is there isn't a martial art out there that is the end all, the best fighters come from a mix of different disciplines....

just pointing out that a tma with some kind of locking and ground skill is very effective over training in something like only bjj and wrestling. or only muay taih and boxing. In BJJ and wrestling you dont learn how to block or punch so you need something to make up for that and with stand up skills you have boxing muay taih kung fu's and karate for the most part. any of which can be effective when coupled with ground skills even kung fu if not more then the others even, especially in more of a self defense situation.

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:27 AM

just pointing out that a tma with some kind of locking and ground skill is very effective over training in something like only bjj and wrestling. or only muay taih and boxing. In BJJ and wrestling you dont learn how to block or punch so you need something to make up for that and with stand up skills you have boxing muay taih kung fu's and karate for the most part. any of which can be effective when coupled with ground skills even kung fu if not more then the others even, especially in more of a self defense situation.

That's why I picked Wrestling and Boxing, it covers both standing and the ground. The reason why I don't pick TMA's are because of the McDojos giving people belts for paying their gym dues on time and the fact that we've never seen them in use in sport. I've seen boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Combat Sambo, Judo, Kickboxing, and Muay Thai being used in fights and win fights. Every time I see a TMA guy fight a MMAer it looks like this...

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kaps

11-12-2009, 01:31 AM

Spartacus Sully

11-12-2009, 01:33 AM

That's why I picked Wrestling and Boxing, it covers both standing and the ground. The reason why I don't pick TMA's are because of the McDojos giving people belts for paying their gym dues on time and the fact that we've never seen them in use in sport. I've seen boxing, wrestling, BJJ, Combat Sambo, Judo, Kickboxing, and Muay Thai being used in fights and win fights. Every time I see a TMA guy fight a MMAer it looks like this...

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none the less Cung le is pretty sucessful with TMA....cant watch videos till im done work so.....yeah

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:35 AM

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:37 AM

Phenomkidd

11-12-2009, 01:37 AM

Syf

11-12-2009, 03:05 AM

This is one of my favorites. No Touch Ko guy gets touched...

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are you presenting these as the best top 5% TMA'ers?

LMAFOA> - So an MMA'er beat up a delusional old man and this is to be celebrated?

TKD guy um yeah he was lost and didn't know what to do after the first kick.. the "modern kung fu" guy was a joke... Delucia was probably the best of the bad bunch, but he was against Royce there, and not a master by any means...

Syf

11-12-2009, 03:18 AM

Well I'll always have a place in my heart for TMAs, especially Karate. My father is a Karate blackbelt and I've always been interested in doing Karate as a child but my dad woudln't let me since I was too young (according to him) so eventually I stopped asking nad lost some interest. But he also got me into MMA as a kid, I can remember watching Tank Abbott with my dad on tv. I owe my fighting interests to him undoubtly.

Strange.its never too young to start some kind of training/preparation.

I guess he just wanted you to have a regular childhood or something.

Tank Abbot was the ****, lol... just drank all night the day before the fight...fought... and then went and drank all night again :lol1:

I also remember guys like Dan Severn and Oleg Taktarov

kaps

11-12-2009, 10:04 AM

are you presenting these as the best top 5% TMA'ers?

LMAFOA> - So an MMA'er beat up a delusional old man and this is to be celebrated?

TKD guy um yeah he was lost and didn't know what to do after the first kick.. the "modern kung fu" guy was a joke... Delucia was probably the best of the bad bunch, but he was against Royce there, and not a master by any means...

I have no Idea if these are the top 5% TMAists, But I give them more props than Sifu Whoever sitting at home talking about his wing chung as the best and most deadly art in the world but doesn't have the guts to actually test it in actual hand to hand combat. The Gracie's have proven that BJJ works, Fedor has proved that Sambo works, GSP has proved that wrestling works, CroCop has proved that kickboxing works, Ect. Ect. Who has proved that Kung Fu works?

The Slaughter

11-12-2009, 10:50 AM

I have no Idea if these are the top 5% TMAists, But I give them more props than Sifu Whoever sitting at home talking about his wing chung as the best and most deadly art in the world but doesn't have the guts to actually test it in actual hand to hand combat. The Gracie's have proven that BJJ works, Fedor has proved that Sambo works, GSP has proved that wrestling works, CroCop has proved that kickboxing works, Ect. Ect. Who has proved that Kung Fu works?

no one has ever proved that any type of kung fu works in MMA, a few guys came from kung fu made it, but they went on to train other martial arts and barely uses anything from kung fu.
all this wing tsun talk about how deadly it is.. its a art of defence and surprising your opponent. WT is very usefull if someone attacks you on the streets, but not in the ring where you opponent know whats going to happen.
the WT artist who tried to compete in MMA got beaten up very bad and very quick, one of them by Tank Abbott whos just a brawler with no technique at all, it just dont work!!
however WT is one of the best arts to learn for protecting yourself, you dont need to be strong to use WT so its very suited for girls and kids to learn for protection, but of course this is the only art that was developed by women so it figures..

Syf

11-12-2009, 11:05 AM

I have no Idea if these are the top 5% TMAists, But I give them more props than Sifu Whoever sitting at home talking about his wing chung as the best and most deadly art in the world but doesn't have the guts to actually test it in actual hand to hand combat. The Gracie's have proven that BJJ works, Fedor has proved that Sambo works, GSP has proved that wrestling works, CroCop has proved that kickboxing works, Ect. Ect. Who has proved that Kung Fu works?

You give that pathetic (shame on his students for making him think he was that powerful!) no-touch guy more props than a legit martial artist that just decides not to fight for money?

Ok, I don't. But that's your choice.

Again, you are basing your entire world and reality off of a very limited body of history.

Emin Boztepe may or may not have ducked the Gracies. It is not proven all the ducking was on his end. I have always thought the Gracies cherrypicked the kung fu guys they bring to their studios for demonstration purposes. I've never seen the Gracies fight an actually great kung fu guy. In fact, I have never even seen video footage that supposedy debunks a TMA art that I didn't think that TMA'er was wack on some level.

If you gonna claim dominance over a system, fight their best, or don't even bother, unless you just trying to build rep for $$$ purposes, as the Gracies do..

Syf

11-12-2009, 11:25 AM

no one has ever proved that any type of kung fu works in MMA, a few guys came from kung fu made it, but they went on to train other martial arts and barely uses anything from kung fu.

All systems have common ground. You say that guys like Cung Lee doesn't use his kung fu concepts and techniques, when in his head he probably still does. Same goes for Machida with Karate. What I find interesting is, you give these fighters props, but only for the arts you approve of. The TMA's they know are just dismissed, because they learned a little BJJ or wrestling? This is a logical leap I don't understand.

all this wing tsun talk about how deadly it is.. its a art of defence and surprising your opponent. WT is very usefull if someone attacks you on the streets, but not in the ring where you opponent know whats going to happen.

Most martial arts are about defense. I agree. But defense that can flow into offense.

the WT artist who tried to compete in MMA got beaten up very bad and very quick, one of them by Tank Abbott whos just a brawler with no technique at all, it just dont work!!

this was before weight classes, no?

what was the WT artist's name?

Syf

11-12-2009, 11:37 AM

this was before weight classes, no?

what was the WT artist's name?

please tell me it wasn't THIS guy...

In 1996, he became an alternate on the United States Olympic team in Judo. Reynolds fought Tank Abbot, Ken Shamrock, and Bart Vail, among others. He has also been inducted into the 2000 Black Belt International Hall of Fame. Reynolds has a sixth degree black belt in Judo, a fourth degree black belt in Jujitsu, a fourth degree black belt in Kempo, a sixth degree black belt in Kendo, and first dans in Iki-jitsu, Itio, and Wing Chun. Reynolds MMA record is 34 wins and 6 losses. In Muay-tai he fought 40-2, in Shoot Fighting his record is 7-2, and his record in Pancrase is 8-1.

First off, his techniques are so watered down with so much input, you can't consider him a true Wing chun guy. Secondly, you can't get first dan in no wing chun, which leads me to believe that's a paper rank. Thirdly, the dude, despite all that, doesn't even have that bad of a record.

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:02 PM

All systems have common ground. You say that guys like Cung Lee doesn't use his kung fu concepts and techniques, when in his head he probably still does. Same goes for Machida with Karate. What I find interesting is, you give these fighters props, but only for the arts you approve of. The TMA's they know are just dismissed, because they learned a little BJJ or wrestling? This is a logical leap I don't understand.

Because they are now no longer a TMAist, they're a mixed martial artist. Get it? They have to learn more than 1 art to be a complete fighter, no TMA covers all aspects of the fight game...

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:12 PM

You give that pathetic (shame on his students for making him think he was that powerful!) no-touch guy more props than a legit martial artist that just decides not to fight for money?

He actually put up his own money to test his skills, maybe he believed he was actually koing people without touching them. I don't know, but atleast he had the balls to test his skills, and how do you know what is lineage or anything is?

Again, you are basing your entire world and reality off of a very limited body of history.

Limited? Sure. But proven History. It's shown that it works. There is no proof anywhere of Kung Fu working in combat. Just hearsay....

Emin Boztepe may or may not have ducked the Gracies. It is not proven all the ducking was on his end. I have always thought the Gracies cherrypicked the kung fu guys they bring to their studios for demonstration purposes. I've never seen the Gracies fight an actually great kung fu guy. In fact, I have never even seen video footage that supposedy debunks a TMA art that I didn't think that TMA'er was wack on some level.

Emin has been challenged by more than the Gracies and turned down those challenges as well even though he advertises that he'll take on all challengers. Gracie's did not seek out the Karate, Kung Fu, and other challengers. They came to the GJJ gym to try and collect on the Gracie Challenge.

If you gonna claim dominance over a system, fight their best, or don't even bother, unless you just trying to build rep for $$$ purposes, as the Gracies do..

If you're gonna send someone to challenge the dominance of a system, send your best, like Japan did when they sent there top Judokai to fight Helio.....

Syf

11-12-2009, 01:16 PM

Because they are now no longer a TMAist, they're a mixed martial artist. Get it? They have to learn more than 1 art to be a complete fighter, no TMA covers all aspects of the fight game...

Its that same way for every art.

BJJ isn't a complete system. They bank on spending so much time on the ground, but in a multiple opponent situation that is suicide. So only for sport then.. and even then, Royce eventually lost because...they took his GI away..and he lacked knockout ability

Neither is Muay Thai which lacks the ability to cope with the best BJJ types.

wrestling lacks "striking game".

I mean..what is your point? Its not a new concept to adapt to your opponents strength. Y'all are so smug acting like you reinvented the wheel or something.

I am somewhere inbetween the mindset of a gung ho MMA'er and a pious TMA'er.

I am not against studying more than one thing.. I never said I was... I AM against cookie cutter formulas, and syphoning all the art and soul out of your practice.

Most of those guys might as well call themselves Mixed Martial... because there is very little "art" involved.

Syf

11-12-2009, 01:27 PM

He actually put up his own money to test his skills, maybe he believed he was actually koing people without touching them. I don't know, but atleast he had the balls to test his skills, and how do you know what is lineage or anything is?

I don't need to know the lineage. I can't believe you cats are holding a victory over a delusional, out of shape, old man as something to be proud of. That guy that fought him should have been ashamed.

Limited? Sure. But proven History. It's shown that it works. There is no proof anywhere of Kung Fu working in combat. Just hearsay....

I don't know quite what to say. So all events that transpire outside the scope of a video camera are hearsay? This includes the thousand + years before MMA?

Wow dude. As a student of history I am just appalled by that.

Emin has been challenged by more than the Gracies and turned down those challenges as well even though he advertises that he'll take on all challengers. Gracie's did not seek out the Karate, Kung Fu, and other challengers. They came to the GJJ gym to try and collect on the Gracie Challenge.

Or so it says on your little Bullshido site.. A site hell bent on proving all TMA false and wrong. Like they would portray the man in a good light. Ya right!

If you're gonna send someone to challenge the dominance of a system, send your best, like Japan did when they sent there top Judokai to fight Helio.....

Who sent those scrubs? They sent themselves. No great master I have known... (I've known two, with one on the fringe) would even sanction fighting in the MMA, ie...wouldn't offer their blessing.

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:36 PM

Its that same way for every art.

BJJ isn't a complete system. They bank on spending so much time on the ground, but in a multiple opponent situation that is suicide. So only for sport then.. and even then, Royce eventually lost because...they took his GI away..and he lacked knockout ability

I never said it was. How often do you get attacked by multiple attackers? Royce eventually lost because other people seen that he was defeating everyone with BJJ, they figured they ought to learn how to defend against it. There are also plenty of great NoGi BJJ fighters like the Diaz brothers, Mayhem, BJ Penn, ect. ect.

Neither is Muay Thai which lacks the ability to cope with the best BJJ types.

wrestling lacks "striking game".

I mean..what is your point? Its not a new concept to adapt to your opponents strength. Y'all are so smug acting like you reinvented the wheel or something.

I never said they where complete arts, but they're proven, I've seen muay thai used to KO guys, I've seen wrestling used to take someone down and pound them out. I have never seen Kung Fu used effectively in any fight ever. When I do see it it always looks like fancy movement fallowed by sloppy striking, and a swift and brutal ass whipping to the practitioner...

I am somewhere inbetween the mindset of a gung ho MMA'er and a pious TMA'er.

I am not against studying more than one thing.. I never said I was... I AM against cookie cutter formulas, and syphoning all the art and soul out of your practice.

Why are you against formulas that are proven to work? Are you saying that because you use your art in competition it has no soul?

Most of those guys might as well call themselves Mixed Martial... because there is very little "art" involved.

Do you still believe in magic and Santa clause too?

Syf

11-12-2009, 01:40 PM

1. I never said it was. How often do you get attacked by multiple attackers? Royce eventually lost because other people seen that he was defeating everyone with BJJ, they figured they ought to learn how to defend against it. There are also plenty of great NoGi BJJ fighters like the Diaz brothers, Mayhem, BJ Penn, ect. ect.

2. I never said they where complete arts, but they're proven, I've seen muay thai used to KO guys, I've seen wrestling used to take someone down and pound them out. I have never seen Kung Fu used effectively in any fight ever. When I do see it it always looks like fancy movement fallowed by sloppy striking, and a swift and brutal ass whipping to the practitioner...

3. Why are you against formulas that are proven to work? Are you saying that because you use your art in competition it has no soul?

4. Do you still believe in magic and Santa clause too?

1- Royce wasn't the same after they took his GI away from him.

2- Then, you haven't seen enough Kung Fu... you watch too many movies, and... are busy worshipping the few examples you have that deligitimize an entire echelon of systems and thousands of years of martial study.

3- Because each person should have their own formula. If you are busy trying to copy someone else, you will become good perhaps, but not great. You should find what works for you.

4- there is no correlation between what I said and what you said, whatsoever.

djteo

11-12-2009, 01:43 PM

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:48 PM

I don't need to know the lineage. I can't believe you cats are holding a victory over a delusional, out of shape, old man as something to be proud of. That guy that fought him should have been ashamed.

What makes you believe this? That guy probably believed in his Kung Fu as much as you believe in yours. Probably more so since he actually tried to test it. He may have been taught by the grand master pubah or whatever the ****. You don't know. 90% of TMA's are watered down from years of false claims and fake lineages, none of which can be proven and you're mad because a group of Brazilians have debunked you're beloved TMA as nothing more than a dance really....

I don't know quite what to say. So all events that transpire outside the scope of a video camera are hearsay? This includes the thousand + years before MMA?

Wow dude. As a student of history I am just appalled by that.

People used too fight wars by standing in front of eachother and firing in order. Does that mean that it's still the best way to fight a war?

Or so it says on your little Bullshido site.. A site hell bent on proving all TMA false and wrong. Like they would portray the man in a good light. Ya right!

From this quote I can see you didn't even read the entire thread, or fallow any of the links posted in the thread, to other TMA sites that have called this guy out too.

Who sent those scrubs? They sent themselves. No great master I have known... (I've known two, with one on the fringe) would even sanction fighting in the MMA, ie...wouldn't offer their blessing.

Probably there master or sensei or whatever you want to call them. It wasn't a mma fight, it was a style vs style matchup to see which one was the best, and we all know who won.

Beware of the 5 finger exploding heart technique.
http://antonazucar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Pai-Mei-sitting.jpg

kaps

11-12-2009, 01:50 PM

only two? lets see, you need striking and grappling.

for stand up - muay thai, this incorporates kicking and punching. boxing is best for punching, but it can't block a leg kick.

for ground game - wrestling, the oldest form of martial arts. a good wrestler would dominate other styles such as bjj.

I've wrestled for over 15 years, but BJJ wins unless the wrestler knows how to defend against it or decideds to keep the fight standing...

Syf

11-12-2009, 02:25 PM

1. What makes you believe this? That guy probably believed in his Kung Fu as much as you believe in yours. Probably more so since he actually tried to test it. He may have been taught by the grand master pubah or whatever the ****. You don't know. 90% of TMA's are watered down from years of false claims and fake lineages, none of which can be proven and you're mad because a group of Brazilians have debunked you're beloved TMA as nothing more than a dance really....

2. People used too fight wars by standing in front of eachother and firing in order. Does that mean that it's still the best way to fight a war?

3. From this quote I can see you didn't even read the entire thread, or fallow any of the links posted in the thread, to other TMA sites that have called this guy out too.

4. Probably there master or sensei or whatever you want to call them. It wasn't a mma fight, it was a style vs style matchup to see which one was the best, and we all know who won.

Beware of the 5 finger exploding heart technique.
http://antonazucar.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/Pai-Mei-sitting.jpg

1. you don't have enough cases, or any quality cases, of that to debunk hundreds of different systems. And thank you for incorporating what I said earlier about watered down lineages and false claims. Glad I could teach you a bit. Pontificate all you want homie, y'all still ain't seen the top 5% or even 10%

2. Its actually a good point. They used to fight like dumbasses with those muskets and what not. But war was vastly different before the invention of gunpowder. Guys didn't develop their skills in an MMA sandbox. They developed them in a pitched battlefield, where life and death hung by a thread. With such a harsh learning curve, those warriors that actually managed to pass the trial by fire of dozens of campaigns were bound to be much better than anyone from nowadays.

3. No I didn't. Because it was a Bullshido link. I've been on that site from time to time and they seek out the most outrageous extremes.. cultists, con artists, and ect and then try to paint with a wide brush and crucify all of TMA. And guys like you eat it up in bulk.

4. We already talked about this. the "modern kung fu" guy had horrible reflexes and bad form. and Delucia, didn't even have his hands up in a guard to create distance and a nominal defense, he had his arm down the side of his body like a showboating idiot. That was enough for me to dismiss them both outright as far as being legitimate ambassadors of Kung Fu is concerned . So where are more examples of Gracies "super PWNGING OMFG Kung FUU guyz??"

Lol at the pic. cute.

but it only goes to prove something I said earlier

Then, you haven't seen enough Kung Fu... you watch too many movies, and... are busy worshipping the few examples you have that deligitimize an entire echelon of systems and thousands of years of martial study.

The Slaughter

11-12-2009, 02:38 PM

I have no Idea if these are the top 5% TMAists, But I give them more props than Sifu Whoever sitting at home talking about his wing chung as the best and most deadly art in the world but doesn't have the guts to actually test it in actual hand to hand combat. The Gracie's have proven that BJJ works, Fedor has proved that Sambo works, GSP has proved that wrestling works, CroCop has proved that kickboxing works, Ect. Ect. Who has proved that Kung Fu works?

Its that same way for every art.

BJJ isn't a complete system. They bank on spending so much time on the ground, but in a multiple opponent situation that is suicide. So only for sport then.. and even then, Royce eventually lost because...they took his GI away..and he lacked knockout ability

Neither is Muay Thai which lacks the ability to cope with the best BJJ types.

wrestling lacks "striking game".

I mean..what is your point? Its not a new concept to adapt to your opponents strength. Y'all are so smug acting like you reinvented the wheel or something.

I am somewhere inbetween the mindset of a gung ho MMA'er and a pious TMA'er.

I am not against studying more than one thing.. I never said I was... I AM against cookie cutter formulas, and syphoning all the art and soul out of your practice.

Most of those guys might as well call themselves Mixed Martial... because there is very little "art" involved.

what makes you think that?? on the ground no of course, but standing BJJ have no weapons against muay thai..

I understand that you really want to believe kung fu could be usefull, but face it its a show-sport and not usefull at all against other martial arts.
if kung fu was as good as you make it out to bem, then why isnt everybody practicing kung fu?? the guys I have known that came from kung fu all admitted it was a waste of time when it comes to MMA..

Syf

11-12-2009, 02:51 PM

what makes you think that?? on the ground no of course, but standing BJJ have no weapons against muay thai..

I understand that you really want to believe kung fu could be usefull, but face it its a show-sport and not usefull at all against other martial arts.
if kung fu was as good as you make it out to bem, then why isnt everybody practicing kung fu?? the guys I have known that came from kung fu all admitted it was a waste of time when it comes to MMA..

Notice, I said the best BJJ guys. The ones that shoot in for the takedown like quicksilver, and have the beard to take a few of your shots to do so.

I find it interesting you call Kung Fu the show sport, when it is derived, and forged, through hundreds and hundreds of years of combat in medieval China.

As for why most Kung Fu guys are disappointing... you have problems nowadays of fair weather practitioners. We get them all the time in my studio. They join up with all this fire and vim and expect to become a master like a video montage in a Van Damme movie or something. But when it sinks in they have to dedicate years, and decades to it, they fade away, inevitably.

And, even if they do stick around, they aren't hardcore or dedicated enough in training. I don't care what art you do, if you aren't in fighting form to do it, its useless.

And those Kung Fu guys that poured into your gym? They probably became just as discouraged as the people I mentioned. Because, Kung Fu requires you to memorize and contemplate a whole hell of a lot of stuff, and it takes longer, overall, for Kung Fu to "click" than with a lot of the other simpler arts. And even longer to commit everything to muscle memory.

kswizzy99

11-12-2009, 03:37 PM

there is only one and that is boxing anything else does not stand a chance,kungfu does not even compare to boxing,a boxer would kayo a kung fuer anytime, kung fu does not stand a chance against boxing,boxing beats kung fu by early kayo:boxing:

Chris Lytle
Boxing record: 13-1
MMA record: 27-17

as much as boxing is the ultimate punching art, there are a lot of punches in boxing that would be very dangerous to use in mma or just plain ineffective. for ex: a jab to the body. as hard as it might be for your douchebag mind to understand, even boxing needs to be conformed in order to work in mma.
Traditional Jiu Jitsu and Gracie Jiu Jitsu are 2 totally different beasts. Machida is not a karate fighter, he'll claim it as Machida karate but the fact is he's a mixed martial artist who practices all parts of the game including muay thai with Anderson and Jiu Jitsu with the Nog bros. BTW Shogun does capoeira...

well he doesn't really use muay thai(other than with shogun) or jiu-jitsu to win as much as his karate. I'm just saying that the karate tournament fighting style is what has helped machida win his big fights for the most part.

I doubt that Capoeira will become effective in MMA other than possibly one or two moves. The style itself is flamboyant and is a dance (which it is was to be disguised as such by the slaves who created it).

I think capoeira is a fighting style that takes a lot of guts to use. it's not a very safe style to use and it uses up a lot of energy but I truley believe that capoeira could be VERY effective in an mma fight.

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kaps

11-12-2009, 03:50 PM

If you want to learn forms and really cool looking but practically useless kicks, punching, ect, take a TMA like Kung Fu, Tae Kwan Do, or any other McDojo art. If you wan't to learn how to fight to win and be able do defend yourself properly learn a modern striking art coupled with a grappling art....

Konstantin

11-12-2009, 04:03 PM

Honestly styles dont really matter that much. Its the person. Machida would be successfull if he started off in TKD, he's just a special fighter.

dde91

11-12-2009, 04:12 PM

i have to Say the most diciplined style of KARATE is Goju Ryu. And i say this because i have been in Goju Ryu for the past 13 years. It is a Japanese/Okinawa style meaning hard and soft.
This MMA crap isn't nothing new to Goju Ryu. Goju Ryu is a smash and break style with breaking arms, legs, joints, whatever we can hit. And we focus striking with hits that smash anything we hit. I have to say it is one of the deadliest martial arts out there. So Basically for hundreds of years, Goju Ryu was a style that had influences from many style such as Kung Fu, Chinese Boxing, Muay Thai, etc. So its a combination of styles in some ways.

dde91

11-12-2009, 04:17 PM

Honestly styles dont really matter that much. Its the person. Machida would be successfull if he started off in TKD, he's just a special fighter.

Not really, its what your base is. He grew up with traditional japanese karate with his shotokon style which isn't to different from goju ryu. If you look at karate tournaments now days with competitive traditional jap/okwin karate in the oraganiation of WKF (WORLD KARATE FEDERATION) you can see most fighters have the same stance and same style as machida. If machida was in Kung Fu or Muay thai, then he wouldn't have the same disciplines in his fighting.

PowerpuG

11-12-2009, 04:32 PM

Hands down it's Shotokan Karate. It's all you need. No ground game needed. With Shotokan there's numorous attacks from long distances that keeps your oppponent from taking you down. You can keep him at bay with a Hadōken and follow up with Tatsumaki-Senpū kyaku. Your opponent can't take you down at that point so he will try an aerial attack and that's when you want to use Shōryū-ken.

kaps

11-12-2009, 05:04 PM

Syf

11-12-2009, 07:07 PM

Syf

11-12-2009, 07:13 PM

Phenomkidd

11-12-2009, 07:24 PM

I've wrestled for over 15 years, but BJJ wins unless the wrestler knows how to defend against it or decideds to keep the fight standing...

Cosign:
My best grappling partner is my friend who is a wrestler who has done so since he was a kid in elementary school. I got him into grappling and MMA 2 years ago and whenever we grapple its heated and lasts a bit. I currently have a winning record against him, 3-1 (hard to get him to verse me) despite the fact he is just as strong as me and has more than 8+/- years of grappling (wrestling) experience against my 3 1/2 months of MMA (not even pure BJJ). Submissions bring a whole new element to grappling. He is much better than me at positioning and control but the difference is I can fight off my back, on the top, on the side, etc.

Phenomkidd

11-12-2009, 07:30 PM

Chris Lytle
Boxing record: 13-1
MMA record: 27-17

as much as boxing is the ultimate punching art, there are a lot of punches in boxing that would be very dangerous to use in mma or just plain ineffective. for ex: a jab to the body. as hard as it might be for your douchebag mind to understand, even boxing needs to be conformed in order to work in mma.

well he doesn't really use muay thai(other than with shogun) or jiu-jitsu to win as much as his karate. I'm just saying that the karate tournament fighting style is what has helped machida win his big fights for the most part.

I think capoeira is a fighting style that takes a lot of guts to use. it's not a very safe style to use and it uses up a lot of energy but I truley believe that capoeira could be VERY effective in an mma fight.

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Yeah I've seen that video, MMA is MMA where one punch can change a fight. How many times do you wanna replay that with a skilled MMA fighter and a Capoeira based fighter? I will bank on the MMA fighter winning 99% of the time. It doesn't help the other fighter backed into a corner and was hesitant.

The Slaughter

11-12-2009, 07:47 PM

dde91

11-13-2009, 12:34 AM

I sure would love to see you bring your Goju Ryu(or shindokan as its also called) to the ring against any skilled MMA fighter, you might change your oppinion on how effective it is real quick!

LOL. i think i should. I mean i been in street fights and fought a couple of MMA fighters with gloves and they couldn't touch me (NOT TO BRAG) but i guess i could try it.

dde91

11-13-2009, 12:35 AM

Spartacus Sully

11-13-2009, 12:47 AM

what about pancration? pancration has both stand up and ground. i would combine this with fencing probably.

Spartacus Sully

11-13-2009, 12:48 AM

and why do i have to fight them in a ring?

what about no rules in a ring?

dde91

11-13-2009, 12:51 AM

what about no rules in a ring?

so straight blood sport style????? TIME 4 DA KUMITE :nutkick:

kswizzy99

11-13-2009, 12:51 AM

hahaha... Damn son

my boy was doing IT

Thanks for the vid, thoroughly enjoyed that one

That just goes to show some of what has been said in this thread false... Capoera, perhaps the most dance oriented of all the martial arts, can still tear a mother****er up
I'm glad you enjoyed it.
Yeah I've seen that video, MMA is MMA where one punch can change a fight. How many times do you wanna replay that with a skilled MMA fighter and a Capoeira based fighter? I will bank on the MMA fighter winning 99% of the time. It doesn't help the other fighter backed into a corner and was hesitant.
yeah but you can say that about any fighter. Rashad was backed in a corner against machida as well.

I think against an aggressive fighter who comes in careless, it would be very effective. especially a kick like the one in that video which is very hard to counter.

Phenomkidd

11-13-2009, 12:59 AM

what about pancration? pancration has both stand up and ground. i would combine this with fencing probably.

Greek Pankration (boxing + wrestling + etc) and the later Roman counterpart Pancratium are the predecessors to MMA. MMA is essentially the modernized form of this.

Spartacus Sully

11-13-2009, 01:03 AM

Greek Pankration (boxing + wrestling + etc) and the later Roman counterpart Pancratium are the predecessors to MMA. MMA is essentially the modernized form of this.

but its a complete fighting style where as mma is bjj and mt or boxing or blah blah blah id rather go with 2 complete styles or 1 complete style and 1 weapon form before 2 half styles.

theirs still people teaching it and im sure its evolved as well and if not then that makes it even more perfect.

yeah kumate or what ever like when you break their knee or collar bone its not your problem.

Phenomkidd

11-13-2009, 01:19 AM

but its a complete fighting style where as mma is bjj and mt or boxing or blah blah blah id rather go with 2 complete styles or 1 complete style and 1 weapon form before 2 half styles.

theirs still people teaching it and im sure its evolved as well and if not then that makes it even more perfect.

yeah kumate or what ever like when you break their knee or collar bone its not your problem.

Greek Pankration isn't all that complete, its a merger of styles just as MMA is. Its two core components are Greek Wrestling and Greek Boxing.

Aracibo04

11-13-2009, 01:24 AM

Spartacus Sully

11-13-2009, 01:32 AM

Greek Pankration isn't all that complete, its a merger of styles just as MMA is. Its two core components are Greek Wrestling and Greek Boxing.

It included open hand blows, punches, kicks, elbows, knees, clinching, takedowns, throw, sweeps, and submission holds (joint locks and chokes). Equal preference was given to both upright fighting (ano machia) as well as ground combat (kato machia). Only biting and gouging were banned although the militant Spartans allowed these, too, in their local festivals.

greek boxing was something diffrent which wasnt really even boxing at all it was 2 slaves hitting each other wearing studded leather gloves really no art at all.

DiLLiNGER

11-13-2009, 02:38 AM

most people in this thread commenting got no ****ing clue what going on,there is no such thing as the best martial art,theres people out there who never took a single martial arts lesson who would smash expirienced martial artist out in the street.

just read about the english brawlers or hooligans,MMA arena is not the street keep that in mind.

11-13-2009, 03:18 AM

syf, u study baguazhang? seriously? which lieneage. more a yin fu branch or cheng tinghua branch?

i think somebody asked about fighting records in "kung fu". btw, i dislike that term because it is not accurate. even in the bastardized way it is used includes actually every single art from the shaolin temple to the streets of taiwan.

there are several full contact fighting events: lei tai(which is what my crew usually fights in), sanda and sanshou, and various other national or global events have been recorded throughout hundreds of years.

my main teacher came from a school in taiwan which fought in national tournaments which included wrestlers, karateka, judo fighters, boxers, and damn near every type of art you can think of. among this staple of fighters, they were known to win the gold medals in every weight class in which the fighters entered. the rules were similar to modern mma, except grappling was not really allowed. throws, takedowns, everything you can think of. only striking exceptions were no kicks to the genitals or strikes to the eyes specifically. i have met and had breif trainings with 2 of the most famous fighters from that group in the 1970s. they are no joke.

sanshou is probably one most recognized platforms as cung le was made famous through it. he, btw, has training in vietnamese kung fu. as well as many of the best fighters in pro or am mma have backgrounds in traditional arts like karate as an example.

and... DiLLiNGER is right.... basically, it comes down to how hard the individual trains, which amounts to how much success he has. and while anyone is at it, search for my last thread on this section and you will find a plethora of real fighting clips from real chinese boxing.

or maybe you can just watch the Fightquest episode on Wing Chun in Hong Kong and ponder if you can beat tat guy who is teaching the smaller amatuer fighter. the other teacher who was teaching the big pro fighter/math teacher was less impressive. and u can always ask them if chinese boxing doesnt work too.

chinese martial arts have several ranking organizations

11-13-2009, 03:24 AM

btw, in the US, there are a few federations who have been listing open ranking for many, many years now.

and, i know there are quite a few damn good top ranked am mma guys who have a base in traditional arts. like dillenger said, it depends more on the person.

Syf

11-13-2009, 12:46 PM

some people here just don't know anything about kung fu except for what they watch in the damn movies...

Instead of kung fu, we should be calling them Chinese boxing or Chinese MA.
This is divided into 4 general fighting categories:
Kicking (Ti)
striking (Da)
wrestling (Shuai Jiao)
grappling by controlling joints and cavities.. (Qin Na)

a lot of these moves cannot be used in sport and therefore you only see modified versions.

As Syf said before, if you are in a street fight you want to stay on your feet. The style of wrestling used in chinese boxing is not what you know. Its different.

Look this up. and learn. san shou kuai jiao
many will say it similar to judo.

Nice post. I don't stress too much on set categories, because I feel it inhibits natural flow. That's exactly one of the things that is wrong with MMA, they have all these categories and don't sync them together cohesively enough, I feel. But you are right that a lot of what is in the curriculum would be too brutal for MMA, and many arts have "takedown defense", and even some "groundfighting" incorporated already. Which is downplayed or even outright denied on the strength of very limited and circumstantial evidence.

I cosign these cats watch entirely too many movies. Though... I'm not mad about it. Movies are what got me interested in MA in the first place. Its just they inspire unrealistic expectation which eventually has to be (and rarely is, hence the overwhelming amount of fair weather and discouraged practitioners) reckoned with..

Syf

11-13-2009, 01:02 PM

syf, u study baguazhang? seriously? which lieneage. more a yin fu branch or cheng tinghua branch?

Oh yes...

Though, I am a kung fu mutt, I must admit. I been doing this since 8 or so.. But since I moved around so much I studied several different styles. Southern mantis, hung ga, hsing-I, and even a bastardized form of Shaolin. I have settled on Bagua for the last 6 years or so though and am very happy with it as my Kung Fu of choice. Good benevolent people in my association too.

Lineage is Lu Shui-Tian, and our senior lineage disciple is Master Bok-Nam Park.

http://www.pa-kua.com/fyi13/fyib13.htm

http://www.pa-kua.com/fyi11/fyib11.htm

kaps

11-13-2009, 01:48 PM

Syf

11-13-2009, 02:04 PM

paul750

11-13-2009, 02:04 PM

RBSD people like Marc Macyoung say it's more about learning the proper physics rather than the art itself. That seems obvious - yet lots of people don't seem to think about it in simple terms like that.

Junito-Rulez

11-13-2009, 02:44 PM

Syf

11-13-2009, 02:51 PM

LMAO, and those kungfu clowns thought they could kill you with their devastating PALM STRIKES.
hahahahah

Im ok with that if they see it as an art and a discipline like gymnastics. But if they see that as a combat method, they're ****in hilarious.

heh.

In this video he is just going through the paces.

He's not going all out.\

and... this vid is for the most basic of beginners. But even so you can see the beginnings of the footwork that is used to outmaneuver an opponent..

A palm doesn't kill, that's more movie stuff talking.. but it can hurt just as much as a punch. Especially if you connect with the heel of the hand.

Why do you think most guys that break bricks ect, do it with their palm?

I'll answer for you. Just as much damage output, but less likely to hurt your hand.

RwK

11-13-2009, 03:07 PM

Judo and Muy Thai

or

Brazillian Jiu Jitsu and Greco Roman

Depending on your capacity to stand up or fight on the ground.

Using leverage standing up, or using leverage on the ground.

Syf

11-13-2009, 03:21 PM

kaps

11-13-2009, 04:50 PM

Syf

11-13-2009, 05:02 PM

Should've used a Bas Rutten video, also, no fist strikes where allowed in pancrase and Yuki Kondo in not a kung fu fighter. He's a wrestler...

Thank you for the info. Its allowed to punch the body though right? I thought only the face not allowed in Pancrase.

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yep..seems that way.

As for Yuki, his palm strikes were a bit wider in arc and not as direct, but a palm is a palm..regardless of style.

kaps

11-13-2009, 05:15 PM

Thank you for the info. Its allowed to punch the body though right? I thought only the face not allowed in Pancrase.

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yep..seems that way.

As for Yuki, his palm strikes were a bit wider in arc and not as direct, but a palm is a palm..regardless of style.

Fists to the body are ok. Bas had the best palm strikes IMO....

11-14-2009, 01:06 AM

ah, park bok-nam. i seen some of his stuff before. i hear he has some intresting dragon body exercises. i can always flip through my copy of pakua journal and brush up on that branch. gao style for me, but i focus on xingyi more. and, like u, i have training in a handful of arts and have experienced even more. and, if i have enough time, maybe i will try to grab a regional title next year.

there are some strictly dumb posters here. and i dont say that much. but, buddy(cotto rulez), i am sure GSP would not agree with you at all. especially since he himself is trained in traditional arts. so i guess u just owned yourself.

and hey, u can always fight instead of running your mouth kid.

if u dont know what u are talking about, simple rule - dont comment. because you sound like an idiot. clearly.

Nodogoshi

11-14-2009, 12:29 PM

easy,

xingyi/bagua/taiji

and anything else.

nobody here knows much about other martial arts it seems. i keep seeing bjj, wrestling, boxing, and mt over and over.

some of u guys need to get out more. there are a helluva lot more options.

Glad to see this post.

Chinese martial arts (Gung Fu) are a lot more diverse than people give credit for.

Phenomkidd

11-14-2009, 12:31 PM

I think its more people pick what they believe has been proven already as a MA that works.

Nodogoshi

11-14-2009, 12:33 PM

Should've used a Bas Rutten video, also, no fist strikes where allowed in pancrase and Yuki Kondo in not a kung fu fighter. He's a wrestler...

I thought the Kondo clip was interesting. I've seen the Bas Rutten clips/fights a thousand times.

snakey112

11-14-2009, 01:45 PM

tae kwon do

kaps

11-14-2009, 07:30 PM

there are some strictly dumb posters here. and i dont say that much. but, buddy(cotto rulez), i am sure GSP would not agree with you at all. especially since he himself is trained in traditional arts. so i guess u just owned yourself.

and hey, u can always fight instead of running your mouth kid.

if u dont know what u are talking about, simple rule - dont comment. because you sound like an idiot. clearly.

It'd be nice to see some kung fu guys fight instead of running their mouths. Don't tell people they don't know what they're talking about because you believe kung fu is great. The only martial art listed in this thread that has no proof of it's usefulness is kung fu....

BTW, Kakihara is the ****. Great movie...

kaps

11-14-2009, 07:32 PM

I thought the Kondo clip was interesting. I've seen the Bas Rutten clips/fights a thousand times.

There is nothing wrong with the Kondo clip. Just think Bas clips show more effective palm strikes...

Moon

11-14-2009, 08:11 PM

cupuzz

11-15-2009, 04:33 AM

Muay Thai and BJJ
Boxing and BJJ is good too i think

Spartacus Sully

11-15-2009, 05:06 AM

It'd be nice to see some kung fu guys fight instead of running their mouths. Don't tell people they don't know what they're talking about because you believe kung fu is great. The only martial art listed in this thread that has no proof of it's usefulness is kung fu....

BTW, Kakihara is the ****. Great movie...

Kung fu or gongfu or gung fu (功夫, Pinyin: gōngfu) is a Chinese term often used by speakers of the English language to refer to Chinese martial arts. Its original meaning is somewhat different, referring to one's expertise in any skill, not necessarily martial. The Chinese literal equivalent of "Chinese martial art" would be 中國武術 zhōngguó wǔshù.

In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any skill. Gōngfu (功夫) is a compound of two words, combining 功 (gōng) meaning "achievement" or "merit", and 夫 (fū) which translates into "man", so that a literal rendering would be "human achievement". Its connotation is that of an accomplishment arrived at by great effort.

Kung fu can refer to bjj kung fu can refer to art kung fu can refer to cooking kung fu can refer to sex even. FYI

Nodogoshi

11-15-2009, 05:19 AM

Kung fu or gongfu or gung fu (功夫, Pinyin: gōngfu) is a Chinese term often used by speakers of the English language to refer to Chinese martial arts. Its original meaning is somewhat different, referring to one's expertise in any skill, not necessarily martial. The Chinese literal equivalent of "Chinese martial art" would be 中國武術 zhōngguó wǔshù.

In its original meaning, kung fu can refer to any skill. Gōngfu (功夫) is a compound of two words, combining 功 (gōng) meaning "achievement" or "merit", and 夫 (fū) which translates into "man", so that a literal rendering would be "human achievement". Its connotation is that of an accomplishment arrived at by great effort.

Kung fu can refer to bjj kung fu can refer to art kung fu can refer to cooking kung fu can refer to sex even. FYI
Thanks for the education (I was aware of most, but still insightful).

fathergll

11-15-2009, 12:54 PM

Two best disciplines for MMA? This is easy.

BJJ and Muai Thai or Sambo and Muai Thai. You get an excellent defensive/sub ground game and a standup that uses hands, feet, shins and knees at either close distance or at range.

Well if you could only be trained in 2 disciplines and fight then I would agree on BJJ for the ground aspect...... but I would say wrestling would be easily a better base to have if one were allow to cross train.

I dont understand why people would put boxing over muay thai? muay thai is a way more complete striking discpline. Why limit your self to just punches? Also in boxing your ****ed in the clinch where the vast majority of fights will end up at some point. Boxer in the clinch with a muay thai fighter = ****ed

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e179/torresl1/anderson-silva_rich-franklin.gif

PowerpuG

11-17-2009, 12:51 PM

Don't know what any of that **** is.

My younger brother takes Shotokan, he seems to like it.

but I still own him when we scrap :D

Tell him to focus on his Hadou. That will help with his ki. Before you know it his Hadōken will be unstoppable. Then he can go back to practicing his Tatsumaki-Senpū kyaku. You won't stand a chance after that.

kaps

11-17-2009, 02:29 PM

Tell him to focus on his Hadou. That will help with his ki. Before you know it his Hadōken will be unstoppable. Then he can go back to practicing his Tatsumaki-Senpū kyaku. You won't stand a chance after that.

I've seen Muay Thai used effectivly against this....

http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/2456/Image/SSF2T_Sagat.gif

PowerpuG

11-17-2009, 02:32 PM

I've seen Muay Thai used effectivly against this....

http://www.gameaxis.com/img/blog/2456/Image/SSF2T_Sagat.gif

Good point, but I think there was a considerable reach advantage.

kaps

11-17-2009, 02:36 PM

Good point, but I think there was a considerable reach advantage.

It should be noted though that the Shin Shōryū-ken caused the scar....

11-20-2009, 08:49 PM

It should be noted though that the Shin Shōryū-ken caused the scar....

yeah, kaps, ichi the killer is the shi...

anyways, why the hell are u doubting me? u are basically saying, not directly, that i cant fight, and that none of my elders can fight or have acheived anything. which, man, is very far from truth.

the tournaments are documented. i have met a few of the fighters from over 30 years ago who fought full contact, i train with guys who are current fighters and champs, and i have absolutely no doubts about chinese boxing. i also will except any open sparring match.

anyways, if you havent ever met a person who is really trained in chinese boxing, please dont make a decision on it. and you have no idea what u are missing.

i just had to point out that, what u said, if you meant that chinese boxing is unproven, then that is complete BS. and i do not see room for argument.

Move BRICKS™

11-20-2009, 09:05 PM

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b221/Wafool/akuma.gif

BrooklynBomber

11-20-2009, 09:24 PM

Marksmanship and sprinting. Cant beat a fast sniper.

res

11-20-2009, 11:17 PM

kaps

11-21-2009, 04:59 AM

Actually Kung Fu is one of the only styles being discussed right now that has been proven continually in REAL fights, not some freaking televised sport on a mat. We're talking centuries of use in actual life or death warfare.

Where are these fights? Do you like have to be a member of some club to see them?

11-22-2009, 03:54 PM

Where are these fights? Do you like have to be a member of some club to see them?

oh yeah! res, remember, if kaps didnt see it, it doesnt exist. lofl.

btw, it is not like there are no fights on the net. but, u should find them yourself. i really dont care what your small world is like. if u ever like to travel, and get the F outta your house, i can tell you who to challenge.

i mean, if you are even up to it.

kaps

11-23-2009, 02:38 PM

oh yeah! res, remember, if kaps didnt see it, it doesnt exist. lofl.

btw, it is not like there are no fights on the net. but, u should find them yourself. i really dont care what your small world is like. if u ever like to travel, and get the F outta your house, i can tell you who to challenge.

i mean, if you are even up to it.

BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing, and kickboxing have all been proven effective. Recently. I've yet to see anything from Kung Fu, Gungfu ect. this century. Just because people have been doing it for a long time does not mean it's the best way to do it. People adapt, make things better. I'm sorry if in my "small world" I don't believe in magic or 5 finger exploding heart techniques. Every video I come across is TMA vs TMA which always looks ridiculous or TMA vs MMA which the TMAer gets beat down. Just saying if you want people to take it seriously show some ****ing proof.....

Nodogoshi

11-23-2009, 03:18 PM

BJJ, Wrestling, Muay Thai, Boxing, and kickboxing have all been proven effective. Recently. I've yet to see anything from Kung Fu, Gungfu ect. this century. Just because people have been doing it for a long time does not mean it's the best way to do it. People adapt, make things better. I'm sorry if in my "small world" I don't believe in magic or 5 finger exploding heart techniques. Every video I come across is TMA vs TMA which always looks ridiculous or TMA vs MMA which the TMAer gets beat down. Just saying if you want people to take it seriously show some ****ing proof.....

I'm quite faded right now, but your posts display typical American ethnocentrism in my opinion.

The notion that Chinese martial arts are insignificant is absolutely flawed in my mind.

The fact that we have not seen a Chinese champion in MMA should have no barring whatsoever, imo.

While I am not entirely knowledgable on Chinese boxing/martial arts, I do know enough to say that they are serious ****ers who can most certainly kick some ass.

Furthermore (and more significantly), China is a huge country with a very rich history. To identify Chinese martial arts (e.g. kung fu) as a single style is basically the epitome of (simplistic) ignorance. In reality, 'kung fu' is a generic term, which is used to describe a concept, which is about as broad as the concept of 'Chinese cooking.'

I realize that most readers will not understand the comparison, but for those who do, more power to you.

kaps

11-23-2009, 04:13 PM

I'm quite faded right now, but your posts display typical American ethnocentrism in my opinion.

The notion that Chinese martial arts are insignificant is absolutely flawed in my mind.

The fact that we have not seen a Chinese champion in MMA should have no barring whatsoever, imo.

While I am not entirely knowledgable on Chinese boxing/martial arts, I do know enough to say that they are serious ****ers who can most certainly kick some ass.

Furthermore (and more significantly), China is a huge country with a very rich history. To identify Chinese martial arts (e.g. kung fu) as a single style is basically the epitome of (simplistic) ignorance. In reality, 'kung fu' is a generic term, which is used to describe a concept, which is about as broad as the concept of 'Chinese cooking.'

I realize that most readers will not understand the comparison, but for those who do, more power to you.

It's called being a skeptic, I don't follow or believe in things that are unproven. I do believe in things that are proven. How is this so hard for you to understand? It's not a racial issue about Chinese people. It's an issue of better martial arts for self defence and fighting being available. I use the term Kung Fu as an umbrella term for all of these unproven yet highly touted TMAs that spring up McDojo's all over the place making outlandish claims like no touch KO's and dim maks without having the nuts to prove there style is the best thru competition...

Walt Liquor

11-23-2009, 04:23 PM

combat sambo and kali, for real life, including weapons, primarily the knife, because when it gets down to it, no martial art can handle a skilled fighter with a knife, unless you can get there before he gets the knife out

Syf

11-23-2009, 05:30 PM

It's called being a skeptic, I don't follow or believe in things that are unproven. I do believe in things that are proven. How is this so hard for you to understand? It's not a racial issue about Chinese people. It's an issue of better martial arts for self defence and fighting being available. I use the term Kung Fu as an umbrella term for all of these unproven yet highly touted TMAs that spring up McDojo's all over the place making outlandish claims like no touch KO's and dim maks without having the nuts to prove there style is the best thru competition...

Skepticism is ruining the world, young grasshopper.

Love, faith, family, the divine, and apparently even TMA all fall under its dubious wrath.

:lol1: I can't decide if I was joking just then or not... but seriously, a little skepticism is healthy, but a balance should be struck between dogmatic skepticism and blind fanaticism. Both extremes lead you away from the truth.