View Full Version : Marciano one mans opinion


tommyhearns804
04-01-2005, 08:41 AM
Marciano: One man's opinion

22.10.03 - By Robert Bennett - I gave great respect for the achievements of Rocky Marciano. A champion can do no more then defeat the fighters placed in front of him, and make sure those fighters are the best available. Rocky Marciano did that, and regardless of the relative strength or weakness of a division in any era, a man that can do that is worthy of praise. How much praise is due however, is the question I pose.

Marciano is often ranked inside the top ten heavyweights of all time by various fans and writers, but one must wonder on what basis he is ranked. A record of 49-0 is impressive indeed but his record was only allowed to run to such extents because he was shut out of the title picture for so long. I rather imagine many a fighter in history would have also taken his record into the forties and fifties without loss if he wasn't fighting the cream of the division.

His first victory over a legitimate contender did not come until his 25th fight against Carmine Vingo. By the time he reached 40-0, Marciano had only four legitimate contenders on his resume, and one of those was the sad swansong of the great Joe Louis. Another was Roland LaStarza, who is famous for losing the barest of decisions to Marciano in a fight many observers felt he should have won. The other two fighters were Vingo of course, and Rex Layne, neither of which rate barely a mention in historical circles.

In stark comparison, Evander Holyfield was thrust into the top of the sport by his twelth fight, and remained undefeated until his 29th fight. The staggering difference is that by the time of his first defeat, Holyfield had faced and defeated at least fifteen contenders who were as good or better then the four Marciano had defeated by forty fights, and yet Holyfield himself struggles for recognition inside the top ten because unlike Marciano, he does not have the benefit of an undefeated record aiding his abilities in the eyes of many observers. As for Marciano's magical '0', that only remained because of the relatively short period of time that Marciano spent fighting at the top of the division. Count them eight fights, a heavyweight title eliminator and seven title fights. There are literally dozens of heavyweights who have remained active at the top for longer than that.

Whether intentional or not, Marciano was protected in much the same way that a Joe Mesi now is. Whether Mesi is a genuine talent is yet to be proven, but it is amazing that Marciano's record does not draw as much criticism as todays protected prospects. It is taboo, almost blasphemous to criticise the quality and depth of the names on Rocky's winlist, because of the mythical status that has been heaped upon his 'world record' 49-0.

Seven successful title fights is commendable, but when broken down not as impressive as many of his contemporaries. His two biggest name victims during his title reign were two victories each over Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. Charles was done as a top level fighter, as evidenced by the two decisions he dropped in the year before his first Marciano fight, and a little after a year after the second fight, had dropped a further four fights. As for Walcott, 23 years and 70 fights after his pro debut, many would have you believe that he remained a force to be reckoned with. No one is denying that Walcott was cagey and skillful, even in his advanced age, but putting him on a pedestal to lift the significance of Rocky's wins over him is a joke. No champion in history enjoyed the sort of longetivity attributed to Walcott, and Marciano was in danger of being defeated by both Walcott and Charles at some stage.

The trouble Marciano had with fighters like Walcott, Charles and LaStarza leads me to believe that a fighter like Roy Jones Jr would have taken him to school, as would the defensive marvel James Toney. Larry Holmes would have cut him up with his piston jab and stopped him. And due to both size and skill, Foreman, Lewis, Bowe and Vitali Klitschko would have decimated him. And to those that have fantasised about it, Marciano would have been no match for Muhammad Ali. Rocky struggled against far lesser fighters than Ali, and would not have been able to deal with the combination of speed, skill, power and smarts that felled more great heavyweights than any fighter before or after him.

Rocky Marciano, skilled and powerful, but vastly overrated in a historical sense.

The_One77
04-03-2005, 04:13 PM
nice post, totally agree.

The_One77
04-03-2005, 04:14 PM
or article, should i say

Komandos
04-09-2005, 11:00 AM
Thank's nice post.Thank you a lot.

uncle_rico
04-09-2005, 11:17 PM
i agreed with most of what you said, but that last paragraph was a bit absurd.

1. roy jones???
i love the guy but the man's chin is putty.
rj would dance and out point him but eventually get knocked out.

2. james toney
no. toney has the same reach as marciano, meaning the rock
gets in and pounds him. toneys defense just means the rock
pounds his arms and forearms and toney can't swing.
late round knock out for the rock. no doubt.

3.Larry Holmes would be an interesting matchup, but
based on how the rock looked against archie moore (who
was much much sharper and faster and knocked rocky down)
i think marciano would have too much heart and holmes
would be tko'd prolly the fight stopped.

4.Foreman was a big boy, but as ali showed, the mental
aspect is soooo important. foreman vs. marciano would not have
been like foreman vs.frasier, no way.
this is a tough one to call. based on foreman's performace against
ali (Was he out of shape? hehe, foreman was gonna pass out by the 10th round. the rock *never* stopped punching! heavyweights were not fat slobs back then),
i say the rock knocks him out in the later rounds if he makes it that far.


5.Lewis, Bowe and Vitali Klitschko, holy ****, you gotta be kidding me?!
look at heavyweights now. they are statues...
fighters then were in better shape, moved all the time, tremendous heart.
the rock *kills* all 3 here. klitschko was almost knocked out by corrie sanders! ha, and you talk about marciano's competetion..
lewis was notorious for not being mentally prepared or in shape, whatever,
and of rahman knocked him out, marciano would too. bowe... please, did you see the fight he just had?

6. as for ali, well he was unreal, so, he beats the rock 2 out 3 (frasier got him once, so can the rock).

you make great points on marciano's career and where he stands hystorically, but as for the hypothetical matchups, you don't put enough emphasis on heart.
if skills were all that mattered then
roy jones would still be champ, judah woulda beat tzyou, hearns beats hagler, mosley beats forrest, and on and on and on...

fighters back then were different, they destroy guys today.
i take lamotta and robinson over many of todays light heavies and crusiers.

Komandos
04-10-2005, 03:26 PM
Exelent article,thank's a lot.

BadMagick
04-10-2005, 04:09 PM
In regards to Roy. In a pound for pound sense, Roy wins on points. He'd simply be too fast for Marciano to keep up with. At HW, he loses, because he wasn't that fast. He didn't have a "putty" chin, as you put it. He was tagged with some good shots by strong fighters and was never put down until his fight with Gonzalez, which he came back to win. The shot Tarver gave him would have put ANY light heavy down. It was a perfect shot. The shot Johnson put him down with was from an accumulation of punishment. Jones wasn't in that fight, and he stood there for eight rounds.

It has nothing to do with Roy's heart. If he had no heart he would have postponed his fight against Hopkins with his broken hand; he would have never beaten Gonzalez; he wouldn't have KO'ed Griffin in 1 after the DQ; he would never have come back down to Light Heavy to fight Tarver; and last, but certainly not least, he would have quit boxing in '88 after being robbed in the Olympics. Jones had heart, he just lost the fire for the sport.

Since this isn't a topic about Roy, though, we'll go ahead with the rest.

Lewis would give Marciano some problems. He was a big, big man, and had a good jab. He moved decently, and had good defense, but he had a glass jaw. If Marciano caught him, with even one shot, he'd go down like a ton of bricks. Lewis by decision, or Marciano by KO.

Ali would have given him much more trouble that Lewis, but Marciano would have hurt him. They did an exhibition fight after those computer things, and Ali complained of his arms being hurt by Marciano's punches. Marciano wasn't in his prime, he was old by then, and Ali was still very young. Marciano MIGHT have won, but Ali could have taken him as well. You're probably right that Ali wins 2 of 3 fights.

Holmes, one of the most underrated heavyweights ever, would have given Marciano a run for his money too. Marciano's relentless style would make fight. Holmes wins by UD, or stoppage, though. He's kind of like Lewis, in a sense, good jab, and good power. The difference is I think he had a better chin than Lewis did.

Komandos
04-10-2005, 04:37 PM
Roj??This is artikle of Rocky

M26
04-10-2005, 06:54 PM
Rocky Marciano would lose against George Foreman. Too big and powerful with a style that was made for swarmers such as Marciano.
Foreman by brutal tko.

In a fight versus Lennox Lewis, I believe Marciano could win. Lewis would be alot bigger and would make it difficult for Marciano with his reach and power. How ever, Marciano would never give up and Lewis would tire after 7-8 rounds. Considering Lewis´ weak chin, Marciano would only need one solid shot. A tired, worn down Lewis would not be able to keep Marciano off him for long, and sooner or later the "Susie Q" would reach its target.
Marciano by ko.

Roy Jones Jr would present a bigger problem for Marciano than would Lewis in my opinion. His speed and incredible boxing ability would make it very difficult for Marciano to catch him. But the key would be Marcianos stamina and heart. He would keep on coming. Even though Jones would control the fight and be way ahead on the score cards, Marciano would more likely than not get to him in the later rounds.
Marciano by late ko.

Muhammad Ali would most likely defeat Marciano by decision (or possibly by cut - Marciano cut easily and Ali had a ripping jab). How ever, he would have to struggle for his victory. This would be no walk in the park for Ali. Marciano would put pressure on him and make him fight. This is something Ali always hated, and he was in great disadvantage against a good swarmer. Still, Ali had lots of stamina and a solid chin. He fought some of the hardest punchers the ring has ever seen, and was never knocked out. This gives him the edge.
Ali by UD.

Larry Holmes would struggle even more than would Ali, but I also see him surviving to win by decision. He had an iron chin and was very skillful with an incredible jab. A late knockout by Marciano would not surprise me very much, but 2 out of 3 times, Holmes makes it to the final bell and takes home a comfortable win.
Holmes by UD.

A Marciano-Toney fight would be an all out war. Marciano would make this a slugfest, and no way in hell would Toney survive trading bombs with Marciano. His power, chin, heart and stamina makes it impossible for Toney to defeat him.
Marciano by ko.

V. Klitschko is a big man, but I see Marciano using his lesser height to his advantage, moving in under Klitschkos reach and pounding his body with ripping shots. Then he would follow up with some crushing blows to the head, and Vitali sucks canvas.
Marciano by early ko.

tysonortiz
04-15-2005, 12:11 PM
Nice article.

tommyhearns804
04-29-2005, 11:00 PM
i would bash you for saying vitali would be knocked out by a 180 pound man m26 but at least you know he would be destroyed by foreman so you are cool with me

dmar
06-27-2005, 08:09 PM
why the knock on marciano..not overated but perhaps underated..roy jones jr taking rocky to school please..a no heart fighter..great talent yes untill u hit back..rocky hits back..jones down in 3.why knock charles..an all time great skilled fighter thats beyond jones jr..today rocky would be a cruiseweight..49-0 with 48 kos..rocky was a gentleman a quiet humble confidence and a credit to the game which has had its share off smelly people..rocky was refreshing..we need more marcianos louis ses robinsons in the game and less loud mouth flashes who want millions or sit and dont fight..

ricecrispi
06-27-2005, 09:44 PM
I'll admit it, I'm a Rocky fan. Why, because despite all of his weaknesses, he found a way to win.

You know what, he fought the top opposition in his final 8 fights and won them all. No tune ups or ducking fights. In all rocky rematchs he dominated the fights and after that anyone up against Rock would be unfair. There was no one left to fight and little money to make in rematchs you dominate. He said he had a few more fights left in him but no one to fight.

In the end, I think the top heavies have a good chance at beating Rocky the first time on points because Rocky was a slow starter, but in rematchs Rocky gets them all.

Edit: You can't use Rocky's size to determine if he wins or not. You got to match up his style. You have to think shorter Joe Frazier with a little more power in the body punchs and a stonger right hand. Rocky has a high work rate in about 20 punchs a round and that was why he weighed 185, because he had great stamina. Rocky could gain weight but didn't need too, at 185 because he had great punching power from leavrage. Rocky's size as makes him hard to hit and his reach doesn't matter fights, because of his swarmer style. He was a slow starter and needed 15th rounds. With 12 round fights he would get decisioned more.


RJJ, has skills and speed but his punches wouldn't hurt Rocky. So I think Rocky would get knock down a few times but not respect RJJ's power, walk thru one of the punchs and knock him out in the mid-late rounds.

Lewis would be killed against a hard hitting active fighter because he would not be able to hide behind that jab of his for 12 rounds. Lewis might get a knock down or two but Rocky gets up fired up, tires out Lewis in the late rounds and find his mark on that weak jaw eventually.

Foreman, He might lose because Frazier and Rocky had similiar fight style. Frazier was tough as well. On paper Foreman has the edge.

Frazier, Rocky fought the same style and was better at it, tougher, and hit harder. Rocky gets the nod

Vitali klitskho, who he win against? Look at who beat him? How many hall of famers has he won against? Yeah he has size but that makes him a lot slower and a bigger target for Rocky. You think Klitskho good fighting on the inside? Hell, no

Ali, when Rocky was 45 and Ali was 26, Ali got knockd down against Rocky with a single body shot in an exhibition match. He had a hard time even hitting Rocky and keeping him away with his jab for a one min round. Ali was out of shape though but still in his prime while Rocky was 12 years removed from boxing.
Edit: Ali had problems against Frazier who had the same style as Marciano, short and a swarmer. Frazier should've won 2/3 and Marciano had a little more power in both hands. Marciano wins 2/3.

Holmes, The jab would be enough to stop Rocky. Late round stoppage. EDIT: I think Holmes has a good chance at pulling a decision as well if he doesn't get TKO or stoppage on cuts. Rocky would win in a 15 round fight but not 12 rounder. Rematch, Rocky wins all the way, mid round KO. Rocky figure out te jab by then.

Edit: Toney has a a great defense but Archie moore was known for a great, maybe greatest defense. That's why he had such a long career. Rocky win against Toney like he did against Moore. Toney's defense is not that good for a combo puncher like Rocky with power in both hands. Toney have to bring both hands up and lack the offense to keep Rocky away.

Kid Achilles
06-27-2005, 10:35 PM
This guy isn't worth arguing with Rice. He has his own opinions, many of them based on his racist theory of blacks being superior athletes to whites, and he'll never change them.

The only thing I agree with him on is that Tyson is overrated and in his prime would have been destroyed by Foreman. Never discuss a white fighter with him however, as he'd sooner die than give them credit.

ricecrispi
06-27-2005, 10:59 PM
Go to wwww.******** boxing.com /news/bearden2309.php
east side boxing
Read yourself on Marciano and Walcott fight and Marciano gruesome power 1/3 way down the page. Who thinks Rocky needed more weight to hurt people when you can knock their teeth into the jaw.

Kid Achilles thanks for the word but I want everyone else to know the truth.

tommyhearns804
06-27-2005, 11:02 PM
Lol Racist views?You are white and think some little 180 pound white man could beat 230 pound black men but i am racist?Name one 230 pound black man Marciano beat.Name one 230 pound black man Maricano beat who was a world class fighter.Charles lost 30 fights in his career and had a glass chin.Walcott lost about 20 or 30 times and had a glass chin and Marciano could barely beat him.Archie Moore and Charles were both natural middleweights and Moore had Marciano down with one punch.Moore probably had the worse chin of any champion in boxing history.Moore has been down more than 30 times in his career but yet Marciano had to beat on him for 8 or 9 rounds before he finally put a 45 year old Moore away.Moore said himself Durelle hits way harder than Marciano does.And since he fought both of them i think he would know more about his than you do.
If you are going to say Roy Jones has a glass chin then as i said Moore Charles Louis and Walcott has a glass chin.They all have been knocked out waaaaaay more than Jones has.And if you think size isnt important then why havent more 180 pound fighters moved up to heavyweight and did anything?Is Marciano special because he is white?Do whites always have to bring him up when we are talkng about true greats?Marciano is in no way better than Frazier.Tua Tyson Ibeabuchi Lewis ect ect would crush Marciano.The only ones who cant see it is racial biased whites who need to have a white as a all time heavyweight great.Marciano wouldnt even do shyt in the cruiserweight division today.He couldnt duck black guys until they were in their 40's or just duck all top black fighters all together.Marciano couldnt box.The little boy was slow as hell.It isnt as if he could use speed to out box bigger guys.It isnt as if he could use a jab to keep anybody at away.He came right to his man.This worked great against complete bums.But this would be suicide against any decent 220 plus pound fighter.When another slow white 180 pound heavyweight comes along and rule the heavyweight division .Not racism just logic.And it isnt as if just whites are biased so are blacks.There are black guys who will come in this room and still say Tyson could be Vitali because he is white.Then lets say Vitali knocks him out some other black guy will come along and say Tyson could beat Wladamir when we know he cant.Or a black guy will come in here and say Tyson has more heart than Quarry when we all know quarry has more balls than just about any fighter who ever lived.
Marciano is a over rated white fighter who is only known because of his color.Not a top 10 heavyweight of all time because he isnt a heavyweight.Top 10 crusierweight?Nope.Top 10 white cruiserweight?Maybe

Imira
06-28-2005, 03:42 AM
I'm wondering where you're getting your information. Jersey Joe Walcott only lost 18 fights and only 6 of those were by stoppage and the guys who put Walcott down for the count had high KO percentages. Ezzard Charles has 25 losses but only 8 of those were by KO. Archie Moore only lost 8 or 9 of 25 by KO. And that in a career that saw 184 wins with 141 by KO. Also, you fail to mention that, although he took a beating in his first fight with Durelle, he came back and won the fight by KO. So your diminishing three incredible boxers just to trash Rocky is ridiculous because you don't even know what you're talking about.

ricecrispi
06-28-2005, 05:40 AM
How can you basically call three hall of famers bums??

Walcott knocked out Joe Louis in a sparring match and both were about the same age when they fought and Walcott got fired. He did it later when they fought again and dominated Joe Louis in both fights until he got dropped by Joe Louis comeback KO in the 2nd fight. Walcott lost often because he was so desperate to make money he took fights on a weeks notice or less to feed his family. Sometimes, he jump off the fishing or shipping boats and fight 2-3 days later. Ali copied his shuffle and the term "sucker punch" was coined by Walcott. IF Walcott was a bum it was in the streets and not in the ring.

plus roy jones never fought 100 + fights like Moore or close to the number of matchs like Charles or Walcott. If he did, he be dropped more times and lose more fights. Roy fought a slow ass no skills Ruiz to beat a heavyweight. These guys were not in one fight and gone the next, they were heavyweights much like Holyfield was one. Roy couldn't even contend for a light heavy weight crown at his age and he doesn't have that much ring wear.
These guys were contending for the crown at the same age.

If you did read my link, Marciano was ripping peoples heads off at 185. 15 more pounds and it would be overkill.

He was breaking jaws, ripping teeth, and breaking bones. I never heard Lewis ever do that or Tyson or Klitskhos or even Frazier for that fact, even with bum fighters. Yeah they knocked guys out but not in the same fashion as Marciano.

Marciano got knocked down because of bad boxing footwork, not because of his chin or getting hurt. The fact is, he said he was never ever hurt in the ring.

Kid Achilles
06-28-2005, 06:46 PM
You are white and think some little 180 pound white man could beat 230 pound black men but i am racist?Name one 230 pound black man Marciano beat.Name one 230 pound black man Maricano beat who was a world class fighter.

Already you sound like a ****ing racist idiot. Who the hell cares if a fighter is black or white? I'll answer it for you: a racist. Marciano knocked out several 220+ lb fighters on the way up. Yeah they were white but who, besides you, gives a ****?

What, do you think black people have thicker skulls and are more difficult to knock out than white fighters? So you agree with that white supremacist pseudoscience bull****? If you don't, shut the **** up with the "black man" and "white man" bull**** and just say you think Marciano was too small for modern heavyweights. And if you do, shut the **** up because you're a racist.

Foreman
06-29-2005, 02:06 AM
A lot of people thought Holyfield couldn't make it at heavyweight because he started at 176lbs. All he did was beat everyone in the division. All he did was kick Tyson's ass, twice even though he was "shot". If Holy could put on some pounds , so could the Rock if need be.

ricecrispi
06-29-2005, 06:58 PM
Excellent point on Holyfields size. I say the same with Marciano. Marciano worked so hard not even Holyfield match him in stamina. If marciano worked that hard he could easily gain 15 pounds.

As for the article stating Holyfield was hitting the big leagues earlier in his career compared to Rocky. Holyfield was a gold medalist and had early recognition so he didn't have to wait. Marciano's situation was just like how Winky Wright had to wait 5 years compared to Tito, DLH, or Vargas. It's part of the game sometimes.
I don't understand how someone doesn't get that concept and be allowed to write a boxing article. Sham of a writer

BTW: Comparing Mesi to Marciano because they Italian white boxers is total BS. Mesi is doing what now? How many IBoHF he beat. How many top ranked fighters he beat. Sham, sham of an article

Mike Tyson Jr.
06-29-2005, 10:38 PM
i agree with this opinion.
marciano is overated. he gets
all that credit just because he
was white.

dansweeney
06-29-2005, 10:42 PM
i agree with this opinion.
marciano is overated. he gets
all that credit just because he
was white.


49-0 43knockouts, nothing more needs to be said. does sugar ray robinson get credit for being the best p4p ever because he was black? i doubt it dude.

dansweeney
06-29-2005, 10:46 PM
Marciano: One man's opinion

22.10.03 - By Robert Bennett - I gave great respect for the achievements of Rocky Marciano. A champion can do no more then defeat the fighters placed in front of him, and make sure those fighters are the best available. Rocky Marciano did that, and regardless of the relative strength or weakness of a division in any era, a man that can do that is worthy of praise. How much praise is due however, is the question I pose.

Marciano is often ranked inside the top ten heavyweights of all time by various fans and writers, but one must wonder on what basis he is ranked. A record of 49-0 is impressive indeed but his record was only allowed to run to such extents because he was shut out of the title picture for so long. I rather imagine many a fighter in history would have also taken his record into the forties and fifties without loss if he wasn't fighting the cream of the division.

His first victory over a legitimate contender did not come until his 25th fight against Carmine Vingo. By the time he reached 40-0, Marciano had only four legitimate contenders on his resume, and one of those was the sad swansong of the great Joe Louis. Another was Roland LaStarza, who is famous for losing the barest of decisions to Marciano in a fight many observers felt he should have won. The other two fighters were Vingo of course, and Rex Layne, neither of which rate barely a mention in historical circles.

In stark comparison, Evander Holyfield was thrust into the top of the sport by his twelth fight, and remained undefeated until his 29th fight. The staggering difference is that by the time of his first defeat, Holyfield had faced and defeated at least fifteen contenders who were as good or better then the four Marciano had defeated by forty fights, and yet Holyfield himself struggles for recognition inside the top ten because unlike Marciano, he does not have the benefit of an undefeated record aiding his abilities in the eyes of many observers. As for Marciano's magical '0', that only remained because of the relatively short period of time that Marciano spent fighting at the top of the division. Count them eight fights, a heavyweight title eliminator and seven title fights. There are literally dozens of heavyweights who have remained active at the top for longer than that.

Whether intentional or not, Marciano was protected in much the same way that a Joe Mesi now is. Whether Mesi is a genuine talent is yet to be proven, but it is amazing that Marciano's record does not draw as much criticism as todays protected prospects. It is taboo, almost blasphemous to criticise the quality and depth of the names on Rocky's winlist, because of the mythical status that has been heaped upon his 'world record' 49-0.

Seven successful title fights is commendable, but when broken down not as impressive as many of his contemporaries. His two biggest name victims during his title reign were two victories each over Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. Charles was done as a top level fighter, as evidenced by the two decisions he dropped in the year before his first Marciano fight, and a little after a year after the second fight, had dropped a further four fights. As for Walcott, 23 years and 70 fights after his pro debut, many would have you believe that he remained a force to be reckoned with. No one is denying that Walcott was cagey and skillful, even in his advanced age, but putting him on a pedestal to lift the significance of Rocky's wins over him is a joke. No champion in history enjoyed the sort of longetivity attributed to Walcott, and Marciano was in danger of being defeated by both Walcott and Charles at some stage.

The trouble Marciano had with fighters like Walcott, Charles and LaStarza leads me to believe that a fighter like Roy Jones Jr would have taken him to school, as would the defensive marvel James Toney. Larry Holmes would have cut him up with his piston jab and stopped him. And due to both size and skill, Foreman, Lewis, Bowe and Vitali Klitschko would have decimated him. And to those that have fantasised about it, Marciano would have been no match for Muhammad Ali. Rocky struggled against far lesser fighters than Ali, and would not have been able to deal with the combination of speed, skill, power and smarts that felled more great heavyweights than any fighter before or after him.

Rocky Marciano, skilled and powerful, but vastly overrated in a historical sense.

this guy is an idiot, to put vitali in this article ruins all credibility for this guy, really vitali is nothing in a historical sense

Pugnacious_Z
06-30-2005, 12:19 AM
**** MAN YOUSE AER DUMB, i agree 100% with kid achiles. fuk youse are dumb, marciano had cap skills compared to tpodays fighters, youse are living in the past, and eat a dick u pufters, youse lost it, lewis wud kill him b4 6th round and u put i think a bit 2 much emphasis on heart, heart means hell get beat twice as much b4 the fight stops, fukin 180lb italian, any top 20 heavy wud eat him now, his punch power is nowhere near todays heavies so go and get a job u tosser

ricecrispi
06-30-2005, 04:19 AM
Today, Sept. 23rd, 2002, is the 50th anniversary of Rocky Marciano taking the heavyweight crown from Jersey Joe Walcott with a 13th round, come-from-behind knockout. It was the kind of win that makes a champion, one punch changing the course of heavyweight history.

Champion Joe Walcott, though 37 years old, was in excellent shape and by all accounts of the time was considered a late-bloomer, a fighter with a late prime, such as Lennox Lewis is showing. Marciano was considered a strong, tough, but crude brawler who stood little chance to beat the slick Walcott in the opinions of many of the experts of the time. For those who don't know of Walcott, or just know his age when he lost to Marciano, and think that tells all you need to know, read up on the man. He was a superb boxer. He did a baffling move with his feet called the Walcott
Shuffle, which Ali would copy and rename. It was a shift of his feet, first one, then the other leading. He didn't change from righty to southpaw as some try now, but he confused his opponents with his footwork. His grandson says even Bruce Lee studied films of Walcott for the way he moved his feet. Watch a film of Jersey Joe, then a Bruce Lee film and you can see the similarity.

His jab was a work of art. Ring magazine once did a frame by frame comparison of Walcott's jab and Ali's jab at similar stages of their careers and found that Jersey Joe threw four jabs in the time Ali threw three. And they were more in the nature of the jabs of Larry Holmes or Joe Louis, striking with power behind them.

He also had a sneak left hook, which Ezzard Charles called a "sucker" punch. He would do his foot moves, move his shoulders, then come out of nowhere with the hook. He dropped Joe Louis with it twice, he dropped Marciano with it, and he knocked Ezzard Charles out with it.

When Louis was training to fight Schmelling the first time, Walcott was hired as a sparring partner. In the first round of sparring he dropped Louis. They fired him; a bad mistake. If they'd kept him around, he might have showed them why Louis was so hittable; instead they had to let Schmelling show them in the ring when he beat Louis from pillar to post and knocked him out in 11.

When Walcott fought Louis for real years later in 1947, he showed he still had the Brown Bomber's number. He dropped Louis twice, closed his left eye, and was declared the winner by the referee, the crowd, and Louis himself. However, the two judges were too much Louis fans to let him lose on decision and gave the fight to Louis. He had actually left the ring in defeat when the judges declared he was the winner and not Walcott.

Marciano, on the other hand, wasn't a smooth boxer. He was a brawler, a tough, give-and-take Italian-American kid who counted on brute strength and endurance to win fights. He was the ultimate attrition fighter, a swarmer who could throw 85+ punches a round and keep it up for a full 15. His training methods are almost legendary, a fanaticism with conditioning that shut out family, friends, and the outside world for much of his eight years as a fighter. He pushed himself beyond the limits of almost any other fighter who ever lived, till he was an unstoppable machine that never tired and never backed away. Archie Moore said he was the best conditioned fighter of that entire era, in any weight class. Boxing experts agree he was the best conditioned heavyweight champion of them all. His opponents LaStarza, Walcott, Charles, and Moore all said the same thing, "He never stopped punching."


Later champion George Foreman said, "The bell would ring and Marciano would be on you. The bell would ring to stop the round and he'd quit. The bell would ring again and he'd be right back on you. He was relentless." He threw punches from all angles, with equal power in either hand, and all were meant to do damage. He broke bones when he hit. LaStarza tried to cover up against him, an early rope-a-dope, and Marciano beat his arms till he broke the bones in the elbows and ruptured the blood vessels in the forearms. Roland had to have operations on both arms after the fight. He hit
big Rex Layne with a right hand that sent his mouth piece flying. His front teeth went with it. As one of his handlers said, "His front teeth were sheared off at the gums."


He hit Lee Savold with upper cuts that drove his teeth up into his jaw, requiring hospitalization. He put Carmine Vinga into a coma and ended his career. After their fight, Archie Moore was asked which of Marciano's punches had hurt him. He said, "Man, they all hurt!" He added, "After fighting Marciano, you feel like you've been beaten with a blackjack or hit with rocks." It would be the fearsome punching power and willingness to take punishment of the challenger against the experience and excellent boxing skill of the champion. Just as with Ali and Frazier in years to come, it was the fight fan's dream match, the boxer against the slugger, the contrast of styles that often lead to the best fights.

When Walcott was matched against Marciano, the odds slightly favored the younger challenger, but the odds had been 5-1 against Joe when he knocked out Ezzard Charles to take the title. Most of those in the know expected Walcott to beat Rocky, too. Walcott and his manager continued work on setting up a fight in England for after the Marciano fight. Others were jockeying for position to claim the next bout with Jersey Joe.

Walcott said of Marciano, "If I can't beat this bum, take my name off the record books. I guess he can punch, but he's got two left feet. He can't box a little bit. I've never seen anybody easier to hit." Such was Joe's opinion of Marciano before the fight. Afterwards he would concede, "With all respect to Joe Louis, Marciano hits harder."


As a strange aside to the fight, the word spread through the underworld that Marciano would not be allowed to take the title, unless he knocked Walcott out. Walking to the ring, Rocky was told by a detective Weill had hired to look into the rumors, "You can't win a decision. You have to knock him out to win." Some time later, word came out that even the referee, Charley Taggert, was bought.

There were other odd occurrences. Marciano was one of the coolest, most confident men to ever fight. Like Joe Louis, he would sleep in the dressing room before the fight. In the Walcott match, they had planned on waking him 45 minutes before fight time to warm up. But, he was woken when someone ran to the dressing room and said, "They're starting the fight early. He has to be in the ring in 15 minutes!" With no time to warm up, coming out of a sleep, Marciano was hurried to the ring.

In the first round Waclott caught Marciano with two left hooks. The first lifted Rocky's right foot off the canvas and put him off-balance. The second one dropped him. Walcott knew it was a solid punch, it had knocked out Charles and dropped Louis twice, but he didn't realize how strong Marciano was. Archie Moore, who was there, said of it: "Walcott, you could see his chest swell five inches. He just turned around and walked away. He turned his back. That's where he lost his man right there. Man been in the ring long as Walcott and me, he knows where the ropes is. He knows where the corner is. He don't have to turn around. Walcott turned his back, then went over to the ropes thinkin' he just wait for the man to count him out. He swung around again ... man was on his feet. Marciano didn't take a count. Got right up!" Moore said Walcott jumped in surprise, something the film didn't catch as it was focused on Marciano. "But he looked, jumped. He lost his rhythm right there. He was out of the rhythm of his fight."

The referee started counting, Marciano's corner was yelling for him to take the eight count, but Rocky got right up. The referee later said he knew Marciano wasn't hurt because just as he started to count Marciano rose to a knee, looked across at Walcott, and said, "You son-of-a-*****! I'll get you!"

ricecrispi
06-30-2005, 04:20 AM
The fight that followed was classic. Walcott the master boxer moving, jabbing, hooking, and Marciano boring in, throwing punches from all angles. It was the matador and the bull, and though the bull was getting in his licks, the matador was making him pay a blood price. By round 6, despite the knockdown, Marciano was 4-2 on the referee's card, 3-3 on one judge's and 3-3 on the others. It was a close fight. But coming back to his corner in the 6th, after a clash of heads, Marciano complained, "There's something in my eyes. They're burning." When he came to his corner after the 7th round, Marciano said, "My eyes are getting worse. Do something! I can't see!"

"We suspected it was some kind of medication used on Walcott," Allie Columbo, Marciano's cornerman, said. "But we didn't know what to do about it. We just kept trying to wash the stuff out of his eyes, but they seemed to be getting worse all the time."

"What're they doing? What're they doin' to Rocky?" Al Weill, his manager, yelled at the referee. Then referring to Walcott he demanded, "Check his gloves, check his gloves! They've got something on his gloves!" Rather than check the gloves, referee Taggert ordered Weill to sit down and shut up or he'd have him removed from the arena. On the TV broadcast version of the fight you can hear the exchange clearly, yet Taggert claimed afterwards he wasn't aware of any vision problem Marciano was having, nor did anyone ask him to check Walcott's gloves.

"It seemed like Walcott had some stuff between his neck and shoulder where I rested my head when we got in close. Every time we came together, my eyes would start smarting again," Rocky later said. But Hall of Fame promoter Sam Silverman said, "They blinded him in his own corner. I was sitting ringside, right next to them. I think it was poor work, a mistake by his own handlers, that blinded Rocky. Whatever they used on his head got into his eyes."

If so, the substance was a caustic mix called "dynamite". It would burn the skin, closing a wound during a fight. Afterwards, the damaged skin tissue needed to be removed by a surgeon to prevent a bad scar. Dynamite could cause permanent eye injury if it got in the eyes. From the 7th through the 10th rounds Marciano was virtually blind. Some said medication, the "dynamite" used to seal the head wound he received from an accidental butt or to seal a wound on Walcott, did it. Others said something was put on Walcott's gloves. Whatever it was, for those 4 rounds Marciano was unable to see Walcott and took a terrible beating.

"Walcott had the legs of a twenty-year-old," Silverman said. "He was having the best fight of his career. He must've put Rocky into two hundred head-on collisions. It was one of the worst lickings I ever seen a guy get...The poor kid couldn't see. He was getting the **** punched out of him."

Rocky said, "I couldn't see Walcott at all...couldn't see the punches coming. The only time I felt safe was when we were touching, so I kept following after him to get in close." Walcott would later say, "If there was something in his eyes, it had to be medication."

Rocky's corner washed his eyes out between rounds, dousing them with ice water, and slowly they began to clear. By the 10th round he was able to see Walcott and by the 11th his eyes were clear. In films of the fight you can see Marciano rubbing his eyes with his gloves every time Walcott clinches with him and in still photos his bloodshot eyes are obvious. Ali would suffer the same fate against Liston over a decade later.

As Marciano's eyes cleared, he came after Walcott with renewed fury, heedless of the damage he received from his charges. He was after blood. In the 11th, Walcott went all out to finish him, and Marciano took a battering. At one point, Walcott held with his right hand and delivered a series of powerful left hooks to Marciano's head. The challenger, mad with frustration, took the punches and never ceased to throw his own in return. Walcott learned, as did all others who made it into the later rounds with Marciano (and there weren't many who did), that Rocky never tired. His incredible stamina, his super-human conditioning, made him able to absorb unbelievable amounts of punishment and still retain his strength.

In the 13th, Walcott stepped back to the ropes and did a shift to sucker Marciano into range, and threw a right. At the same time, Rocky started a right of his own. Marciano's landed first, snapping Jersey Joe's head around. He slumped to the floor, one arm briefly dangling over a rope. The
referee counted him out, then rolled him onto his back, still unconscious. There were many at ringside who thought he was dead. As The Ring, December 1952 issue said, "While Charley Daggert kept counting over the fallen champion, there was never a twitch from Walcott as he lay crumpled on the canvas. The spectators looked on in awe. Many feared that old Jersey Joe had been fatally injured, so tense was his body."

The Ring issue said, "It wasn't so much old age that beat Jersey Joe. It wasn't a decrepit old man who faced the Brockton Block Buster. Walcott put up one of the best fights of his long career, a most remarkable one. Had he not been up against the ropes when the mighty crash felled him, he might have carried on to win the nod of the three officials. It was a miscalculation of a trick he often had used to good advantage that cost him the fight. With back against the ropes, he shifted his body in an effort to baffle his opponent, and that movement brought him in direct line for the
right that put him away."

It was the beating Marciano took during the fight, and especially those 4 rounds when he was unable to see the punches, and the later fight with Charles where he overcame a nose split in two to knock Ezzard out, that cemented his legacy as one of the toughest SOBs to ever enter a ring.

tommyhearns804
06-30-2005, 05:30 AM
How tought you believe he is has nothing to do with him beating 230 pound black men.He didnt face or beat any black men who weighed this in his career so why would you think he could?Joe Frazier was blind in one eye.Joe Frazier was tough as hell but did that help him when Foreman beat him down?Tough has nothing to do with your brain bouncing around your skull leaving you knocked out.The point again for the billionth and hopefully last time Maricano wasnt a heavyweight.Even decent heavyweights would crush him.

gravity62
06-30-2005, 06:10 AM
Great Artical, tommyhearns804. I agree with it 100%.

ricecrispi
06-30-2005, 06:47 PM
Tommyhearns804, your reasoning is so warped. You pick a Foreman
as an example as a 230 pound fighter but he is a top 3-6 Heavyweight. Why pick Foreman when he can easily beat Marciano whose like Frazier? To make an easier arguement?

You pick the biggest baddest puncher and say he is unbeatable. We'll he has a flaw and that was he couldn't go pass 8 rounds and win in his prime. He didn't have heart. That is why he isn't #1 because that is just as important as skill, toughness, weight, style, heart, or a chin. He didn't have the desire to fight Ali again or prove himself. That is why he's lower in the ranks. You remember how pathetic it was to see Foreman before the Lyle fight. Beatup no name 3-4 bums a single night to prove he was tough. Those guys were such bums they don't even show up on his record. I can say a Foreman after Ali could never beat a Marciano.

Foreman has skills but 10x more than most current 230 heavyweights. If your "current" 230 pounders "BLACK" fighters are so good tell them to fight Chris Byrd , a "blown up middlewieght" and see how many will win. Now imagine if Byrd had a little more KO power, a better defense than leaning on ropes, has a better chin and doesn't slap. He dominate the Heavies today.

What you would have is Archie Moore who was good enough to fight about 5 years after Marciano and lose 3 fights, one to IBOHF Patterson and one to Ali. If current Heavys can't beat Byrd, how they gonna knockout a better defensive fighter in Moore who also hits harder and tougher.

If weight is so important then why hasn't Ruiz knocked anyone out for his last few fights and weigh in at 235. He didn't even knock out an old over the hill Holyfield.

So when does toughness not count in a fight. If it wasn't important a lot fighters be ranked higher and win more fights.

Who has knocked out Holyfield? Mike Tyson no. A 250 pound Foreman, no. 225 pounder Rahman who knocked out Lewis, no. A 245 pound top 10 heavy Lennox Lewis in his prime hiding behind a jab and holding an over the hill Holyfield, hell no. He has been hurt and that is where toughness comes in.
Who Ko'ed holyfield 235 Bowe did it and a blown up middlewieght James Toney. 225 pound Larry donald couldn't
Ko Holyfield and this is after the Toney fight. so much for the theory on weight be the determinate in the fight.

My point is weight and size can determine a fight but guys like Frazier, Holyfield, Marciano, and Byrd and Toney in the future, have dealt with it being shorter or smaller. They come to fight and come to win. Marcinao wouldn't be beat by a decent heayweight of today. He would even give trouble to the top 10 Heavyweight fighters of the 70's. That is why he's in the top 10

Joe Louis, ranked #1-2 all time was quoted he couldn't beat him in his prime. He weighed in only at 200 and fought smaller guys. If weight was so important he wouldn't be rank #1-2 and decent heavyweight's today would have a chance at him then because they out weigh him 30 pounds.

Ali respected Marciano and his skill when they had an exhibition fight when Marciano was 45 and Ali was 26. He said if Marciano was that tough at 45, he couldn't imagine him in his prime. Game recognizes game mofo. If the top 2 ranked all time heavyweights can respect that man, I can't see why you can't. Give the man his due

tommyhearns804
06-30-2005, 09:04 PM
Kid the get the hell out of here.Number one Marciano isnt Holyfield.Holyfield had boxing skills.Foreman couldnt knock him out because he was 42 years old.Holyfield made a living fight black 220 pound black guys.Maricano made a living fighting moslty 150 to 190 pound white guys.
Number 2 Joe Louis was overrated.And just becuase he said he couldnt beat Marciano in his prime means what?Louis was only 200 pounds himself and had a glass chin.And Louis said in the late 70's that Foreman was the best heavyweight he ever seen.And Ali never said Marciano was tough at 45.And if he did it was to be nice.Marciano is white.If Ali bad mouthed a white fighter like Marciano the press would of ripped him.Ali also said besides himself Foreman was the best fighter he seen.Archie Moore said Durelle hit way harder than Marciano did.
This is continued from the second thing.Holyfield fought world class black fighters who were in their primes who weighed 220 pounds.How many world class fighters Rocky fought in his prime period?Zero.A washed up Joe Louis a old Archie Moore a old washed up and overrated Walcott a small past his prime Charles.So based on that you are trying to compare him to Holyfield?And then you bring up James Toney?Who in the hell did Toney beat who was a heavyweight?Holyfield=Cruiserweight.Booker=Cruiser weight bum=Ruiz=Cruiserweight bum.
As i said before Marciano was unskilled.He was slow as hell.He couldnt box at all.He came forward looking for the ko.Sure it worked against little bums but did he ever show he could beat any real true 220 pound plus heavyweights?Hell no.The only reason we are talking about Marciano is because he is white.Micheal Moorer was a vicious puncher at 175 pounds and was never knocked down at that weight but as he went up his punching power decreased just like every other fighter who moved up.So why would you think Marciano would continue to be effective?Bob Foster was a vicious puncher at light heavyweight but was he anything special at heavyweight?But since Marciano is white he could do something no other fighter in boxing history could do right?Marciano struggled to beat every black fighter he faced no matter how old or washed up he was.But because in your little mind he could beat guys like Lewis or Bowe he could right?There is no point in trying to get you to comprehend logic so why even bother anymore.

Imira
06-30-2005, 09:24 PM
He didn't have the desire to fight Ali again or prove himself.

Hold on ricecispi. You've got something backwards. It was ALI who refused to fight Foreman a second time. Foreman would have killed himself to get a rematch against Ali. That's why he fought the 5 round exhibition in Toronto and challenged, Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier and Jimmy Young. He did want a rematch with Ali. Ali, for some unknown reason, did not give him a rematch.

You pick the biggest baddest puncher and say he is unbeatable. We'll he has a flaw and that was he couldn't go pass 8 rounds and win in his prime.

Again, you're wrong. Before he fought Ali, he did go the distance and won the decision against Peralta, Forte and another fighter, I can't think of his name right now. His fights against Ali and Young had less to do with his stamina and more to do with the fact that he fought the wrong fight against Young and Ali could take his punch better than any of his other opponents.

ricecrispi
07-01-2005, 12:27 AM
Hold on ricecispi. You've got something backwards. It was ALI who refused to fight Foreman a second time. Foreman would have killed himself to get a rematch against Ali. That's why he fought the 5 round exhibition in Toronto and challenged, Ron Lyle, Joe Frazier and Jimmy Young. He did want a rematch with Ali. Ali, for some unknown reason, did not give him a rematch.

Again, you're wrong. Before he fought Ali, he did go the distance and won the decision against Peralta, Forte and another fighter, I can't think of his name right now. His fights against Ali and Young had less to do with his stamina and more to do with the fact that he fought the wrong fight against Young and Ali could take his punch better than any of his other opponents.

1.) Foreman didn't want one or asked and Ali never gave him one anyways. Foreman took those series of fights to prove to himself he was tough. You ever watch Beyond the Glory for Fox sports. Foreman said it himself, his words. I'm not BS it and blow out my ass. He thought he was invincible and Ali did a job on him and punkd him. He did fight hoping to get attention for a rematch but he said his heart wasn't in it. That why the Lyle fight so so sloppy and the Young fight he lost.


2.) Yeah, Foreman went the distance in those fights. I don't mean to diss but who are those guys? The point was if Foreman workrate went too high he gas out. It was a weakness nonetheless. I like Foreman, I have him #3 pass Marciano.

ricecrispi
07-01-2005, 12:47 AM
TommyHearns
There's a reason Joe Louis is ranked by many as number one or two and you **** on his name like that. Most top 10 heavies would have him up there and you say "overrated". Wow! Now you pissed me off! You basically spit in the name of two of the top heavyweights and call me KID!!
YOU ARE a RACIST MOFO of a pig. If they were white, Marciano beat 3 hall of famers. IF they were mexican they be 3 hall of famers. It's not the skin color KID, it's the skill.

Well, Marciano never fought a 150 pound man mofo, he fought 185-200 fighters heavyweights and an occasional 225 because that was all that was available! They added more weight class my man, that was why he was 185. To bad you ain't smart enough to figure it out.

"If Ali bad mouthed a white fighter like Marciano the press would of ripped him"
Ali HATED WHITE PEOPLE back in those days. He thought they should all be bombed and killed. You think he cared about the press. Please you moron. He said FUK U to the ARMY, government, whites, and boxing commission and you think he cares about the press. The press pissed all over Ali's name. You are getting the wool pulled over the eys by journalistic writers polishing Ali's image the last 20 years. He was by no means is a saint and an angel like they make him seem today. I'm not goona bad mouth Ali because that's the past.

Joe Walcott was not over the hill. He was like Lewis or Hopkins, better with time just like wine. You call him over the hill because he was 37. Hopkins is 40 and even if he loses he's still top 10 P4P. Walcott was the Ali predecessor. Ali molded himself after him. The headmovement and the footwork. Walcott was so good it could've been Walcott or Joe Louis but he got sick and was in poverty so he couldn't fight.

If Archie was so washed up how he fight for 6 more years with what you called a glass chin. Foreman didn't fight for even 4 years after Ali punkd him.
How many Hall of famers he face after Ali, Frazier who he already beat. Foreman was up washed before all the guys you called bums were washed up. Moore said he never been hit that hard in his life, not Durelle hit harder then Marciano fool. Get it right and don't make up stuff to prove yourself.

Moore said that because he covered up the whole fights against Marciano vs. getting clocked clean by Durelle. He also said Marciano punching you was rocks hitting you and got KO'ed 5 times in that fight and never asked for a rematch!

ricecrispi
07-01-2005, 12:47 AM
If the current heavyweights are so good, tell them to fight Chris Byrd. No they avoid him because his middlewight ass would take them to elementary boxing school. Archie Moore was even better than Byrd. I brought up Holyfield and Toney because Lewis in his "prime" and couldn't knock him out Holyfield, Rahmin couldn't, Ruiz couldn't. Toney did it. I don't care who he's fought, he did it. A blown up middlewight. You say a middlewight can't comeup and hurt a 230 pound fighter. You say cruiserwights and middlweights can't compete with todays fighters, all they have to do is move up in weight. looks like you think like a little KID. You think Marcinao can't move up in weight. Yeah, a 185 pound Marciano might not compete at one 185-190 but I bet a 205-210 pound Marciano could. They guy worked harder than Holyfield.

Mike Moore, who he knock out at Heavyweight, hardly no one. He got stoppages but no knock outs. He was never a KO artist like Marciano. Look at the KO percentages of Marciano. Bad comparision. Pick a better one Kid.

Lennox Lewis
Lets say he's the best of the current top 230+ Heavyweights.
Your Lewis at 245 couldn't knock a 225 pound Holyfield. He was a cruiserweight.
He couldn't do it to Tua. Lose to Rahman in his prime.
Never fought vitali again
The guy holds to a level which was never allowed in the past.

tommyhearns804
07-01-2005, 03:56 AM
Lol kid number one Marciano fought 155 pound fighters.Moore was a natural middleweight and so was Charles.They both gained weight when they got older but they were both still middleweights.2 Walcott was 40 years old jack ass.He never was good to began with .The man had 20 or 30 loses.He is built up just so people can say well Marciano fought some good fights like Walcott.Good fighters dont finish their careers wiht 50 wins 30 loses and 30 ko's.
Haha Moore said Durelle hit harder than any fighter he ever fought and let me see he fought Marciano so that must of ment Durelle hit harder than he did.
Ali puncked Foreman?Dont make me laugh kid.Foreman tried to get a re-match and Ali didnt give him one.Foreman kept fighting until he lost to Young.And then retired.Foreman fought Ron Lyle a 230 pound black man who could punch like hell.Lyle was better than the white bums Marciano fought.
Wow Marciano knocked out Moore.Big freaking deal.Moore was ko'd alot of times in his career and knocked down countless other times.And again he was a natural middleweight so no big deal.
Foreman says alot of things since he got older.He would tell you now that he was the worse fighter ever and most women could beat him.The people who know Foreman and were around him said he wanteed a re-match bad because he still felt he was the champion and he wanted to show the world he still was.
Peralta is better than Charles or Walcott combine.I believe his record was 99 wins 9 loses compared to the 30 loses Walcott had and 30 or 40 Charles had.Peralta fought Foreman 2 times Bonevena 2 times Ron Lyle 2 times.The man fought tough guys and held his own.So if he isnt nothing special then neither are any of the guys Marciano fought.
And i am racist?Lol that is the funniest crap i ever seen.Besides Foreman all of my other favorite atheletes are white.I am a black guy who lives in a black city but i can't see a black man ever beating a white man in a fight unless he had a gun.Kid you dont know me.You are just a racist little white who gets hurt when somebody tells the truth about that bum Marciano.But i could care less though.Marciano will always be a piece of trash who gets built up by racist white guys and Tyson will always be a rapist coward who is built up by black men

Imira
07-01-2005, 04:00 AM
He did fight hoping to get attention for a rematch but he said his heart wasn't in it.

True, but he was still clamoring for a rematch. And Ali never gave him his rematch. We all know he was doubting himself, but the fact remains that, out of all of Ali's opponents, Foreman was the only one who never got a rematch.

Yeah, Foreman went the distance in those fights. I don't mean to diss but who are those guys? The point was if Foreman workrate went too high he gas out. It was a weakness nonetheless

The point isn't "who are they?", the point is that if he can go the distance with "nobodies" it still says something for his stamina. And, to be honest, if Ali, Holyfield, Roy Jones or any other boxer, punches too often, he will eventually get tired. It's a weakness, but not Foreman's alone.

He lost his first Ali fight because he fought the wrong fight. Period. He didn't change or adapt his style and that's why he lost. Shavers is a big guy who punches hard and has stamina issues. However, when he fought Ali, he had very little problem going the distance because he fought the right fight that night.

Oh, and I wouldn't bother getting so upset with TommyHearns. He'll never change his opinion, no matter how much you try to reason with him.

ricecrispi
07-01-2005, 11:00 PM
True, but he was still clamoring for a rematch. And Ali never gave him his rematch. We all know he was doubting himself, but the fact remains that, out of all of Ali's opponents, Foreman was the only one who never got a rematch.



The point isn't "who are they?", the point is that if he can go the distance with "nobodies" it still says something for his stamina. And, to be honest, if Ali, Holyfield, Roy Jones or any other boxer, punches too often, he will eventually get tired. It's a weakness, but not Foreman's alone.

He lost his first Ali fight because he fought the wrong fight. Period. He didn't change or adapt his style and that's why he lost. Shavers is a big guy who punches hard and has stamina issues. However, when he fought Ali, he had very little problem going the distance because he fought the right fight that night.

Oh, and I wouldn't bother getting so upset with TommyHearns. He'll never change his opinion, no matter how much you try to reason with him.

I agree on the Ali thing. I don't remembering if Foreman said he would not take it but he did fight to try to get attention. I think in a rematch he would still lose. Ali punked the man in front of the world.

You make a good 2nd point
My point of Foreman weakness is these bums went the distance with Foreman. If a bum can do it then I beat some 10 top heavies could. He did fight the wrong fight but that was in his fault in training style. In historic match fight, if fighters saw the Ali foreman fight, that aura of invinciblity like with Mike Tyson would be gone and more fighters would try to have Foreman outwork himself. I know a lot of fighters have that weakness I'm just say Heorge has one.

As fo Tommy Hearns. His racist rant is worth getting mad. I just can't get over hearing the fact he basically calling 5 hall of famers bums.

Kid Achilles
07-01-2005, 11:07 PM
This Hearns guy has been around for awhile and keeps changing his name. You can tells it's him because the enter button seems to be broken on his keyboard. Don't consider him as anything more than comic relief.

Yogi
07-01-2005, 11:23 PM
This Hearns guy has been around for awhile and keeps changing his name. You can tells it's him because the enter button seems to be broken on his keyboard. Don't consider him as anything more than comic relief.

Yeah, it's pretty obvious by the writing style and the "love" he has for Marciano, that he is that Inmorwa (or whatever the name was) guy that was banned previously on a couple of other occasions.

It's really not worth the effort of even reading his posts, nevermind trying to debate/discuss something with him.

tommyhearns804
07-02-2005, 03:59 AM
Lol did i ask you to follow me from post to post?Some simple minded racist white boy who lives in the past.I will be comic relief while my black race rules boxing.You can live in the 50's when 180 pound pieces of trash could duck black fighters until they were 40.You can live in the past when the mafia contolled boxing.
I will continue to live in 2005 while all of the top pound for pound boxers are black or mexican or puerto rican.I could care less what you thin.You arent worth it.Why try to bother explaining to a racist?Or are you just mentally retarded?If in your little brain being white makes you a better boxer then great for you.If you are stupid enough to think some 180 pound bum could compete with my 230 pound plus black heavyweights then that is great for you as well.
But when you see a post made by me Tommyhearns804 dont enter it.I make post for the guys who come here who arent racist and know their boxing.I could care less what trash like you type here.But you do care about me.That is why you are respondingto my post.But i am done here.I dont go to post you make to began with so you dont have to worry about me going there.So if you have half a brain which i know you dont then dont come to my post.

ricecrispi
07-02-2005, 04:35 AM
Moore wasn't a natural middlewight. Thats 160 range. He was 175-195 pound range for plus 10 years so he was lighthheavy to cruiserweight.
That's like saying Thomas Hearns is a natural welterwight because thats where he started..... Peralta foughts bums and was 180-200. Lyle lost to top competetion in the 70s but was an excellent B+ level fighter. He determined if you were top ranked material.

To the real point
BTW
I seen plenty black guys being beat by white guys and vice versa. You need to get out more. One of my old buddies who I trained with is Quetin "Rampage" Jackson. My ***** is black and down and dirty as it gets. About 6 months ago he got knocked out cold and was out for 10 mins in a rematch against the champ, a brazilian "white dude". I didn't anyone could do it to my boy, I seen him take 3-4 kicks to the head and shake it off. Most guys are down on the first one. Anyways, My boy beats whites, blacks, japanese, brazilian, mexican, or who ever wants to fight him. He's was street brawler/werstler turned pro fighter. I was a boxing amateur and help him learn some defense and a jab. The funny thing was only 130 lbs back than and he's an easy 210 but his fundamentals where so bad I had to help him.

BTW,
I'm asian, read the name foo. Name like that and you think i'm white. Hell no I ain't white. I eat rice crispies, an asian rice snack before americans remade it. Remember rice, Asians eat it, a lot.

My trainer was white and a golden gloves middlewieght winner from Brockton, sound familiar? Brockton, Hagler sound familiar? My trainer was Hagler's occasional sparring partner at uncle P's gym in Brockton. Marciano went to the same gym in Brockton.

BTW
I don't like Marciano because he 's white, I would give a **** if he was black, mexican, european or like tiger woods. I like Marciano for what he represented in term of the old saying you should know if you from the ghetto. It's not the size of dog in the fight, it's the size the fight in the dog. I respect fighters for there skills and accomplishments in the ring not there skin. I know about Marciano being Italian and the Mob trying to fixing fights. Fixed fights happened in the 40's, 50's 60's, 70's ,80's, 90's, and now.
Marciano hated it because it took away from what he worked hard for. He's a working class man and worked hard to win fights. I heard how strong he was and he's training regiment. He's no ***** like you make him out to be. Go buy his fights on dvd and watch the beating he took.

BTW
You and "your other than foreman all my favorite atheletes are white." Please man, like we can't see past your ****. I bet you name more black guys than white anyways. They are just more black atheletes in modern sports so it's very hard to do.

gravity62
07-02-2005, 04:42 AM
Ali HATED WHITE PEOPLE back in those days. He thought they should all be bombed and killed. You think he cared about the press.

Ali didn't hate all white people, he felt opressed by some whites (big difference) and felt that way with good reason. How could he hate all whites when his trainer, Angelo Dundee, was white. And for the record, Ali did care about his image, probably moreso than any other fighter in history. And I do believe he was trying to be respectful to a fighter like Marciano.

Walcott was the Ali predecessor. Ali molded himself after him. The headmovement and the footwork. Walcott was so good it could've been Walcott or Joe Louis but he got sick and was in poverty so he couldn't fight.

Actually Ali molded himself after Sugar Ray Robinson not Joe Walcott. Walcott wasn't any where near as skilled a fighter as Ali or Robinson. Ali was totally against fighting flat-footed which Walcott certainly was when he fought. Ali never liked that style so the above quote is just flat out wrong.

Edit: I didn't read any of the posts after the one I quoted.

ricecrispi
07-02-2005, 04:44 AM
BTW I can go anywhere I want and type what i want. You scared of the TRUTH. Is that what it is? I try to bring the truth and you just scared that your mind can't accept this black and white thing in your head.

You call me a racist but you say black this, white this, black this, white this for the entire post. 2-3 pages

I mention it once and you go crying about how I'm racist. Typical of a racist to say that. Can't even see there own flaws and go point the same flaw that they think they see in other people.
All I got to say about that is. Takes one to know one and you are wrong about me. If i hate on some one, it's because i hate them not because of of some skin pigment.

ricecrispi
07-02-2005, 04:54 AM
Ali didn't hate all white people, he felt opressed by some whites and with good reason. How could he hate all whites when his trainer, Angelo Dundee, was white. And for the record, Ali did care about his image, probably moreso than any other fighter in history. And I do believe he was trying to be respectful to a fighter like Marciano.

Actually Ali molded himself after Sugar Ray Robinson not Joe Walcott. Walcott was no where near as skilled a fighter as Ali or Robinson. Ali was totally against fighting flat-footed which certainly Walcott was when he fought. Ali never liked that style so the above quote is just flat out wrong.

Ali's changed through te years and a lot of journalistic writing cleansed his past. You forget the crew he hung out with. The Nation of Islam. What they represented and preached about whites being bomb and going to war was being preached in sermons Ali was attending! They were kinda nazi like. I know Angelo was white but he felt that way about "white people" in general and viewed the public in those terms.

I agree on Walcott being not an exact mold, but the shuffle? I was kinda pissed about Hearns calling walcott a bum. Ali took a couple of things from several previous heavies. Walcott was skilled, enough to match Joe Louis. He's no Sugar Ray Robinson or Ali that's for sure.

dumb donnie
07-03-2005, 01:32 PM
Interesting discussion, thanks.

Kid Achilles
07-03-2005, 01:38 PM
Walcott was extremely skilled. Yes he did ocassionally fight flat footed but so did Louis and often so does James Toney. Boxing skill is not limited to just dancing around and jabbing.

DudeManGuy216
07-04-2005, 10:21 AM
Lol kid number one Marciano fought 155 pound fighters.Moore was a natural middleweight and so was Charles.They both gained weight when they got older but they were both still middleweights.

Rocky Marciano never fought a guy below 170 pounds. The heaviest fighter he fought was 254 pounds,the result, knockout in round 1, proving weight is not the only thing that matters as you seem to believe.

Ezzard Charles started fighting in the 160s but 10 years before meeting Marciano he fought between 170 and 180 pounds. five years before fighting Marciano he fought between 180 and 190 pounds, so i think he was at a good fighting weight.Also if he is such a natural middlewight wouldn't he have gone for that title or the lightheavyweight title but he didn't,the only title he fought for was the heavyweight title. He obviously was in great shape for the Rocky fight as he became the first and only man to make the Rock go the 15 round distance. He isn't the bum you're trying to make him out to be as he fought the greatest fighters of his era and beat them all. Those include Archie Moore,Joey Maxim, Joe Louis, Rex Layne, and Jersey Joe Walcott, with wins over all them. Marciano agreed to saying his fights with Charles were the most painful.Charles was only 2 years older than Marciano, still in his age group.In Charles 123 fights, 20 year career most of his 25 losses came in his last 4 years.

Archie Moore had a very long career starting in the 160s gradually moving between weights of 170 to 190 pounds. Even though he was older than Marciano by about 10 years,he was the one who campaigned for this fight whle rocky was getting ready to retire.In 222 fights he only lost 24 times, 3 of those losses came after he fought Marciano ,two being to future world champions Floyd Patterson and Muhammed Ali. His 145 knockouts is a world record.

You trying put down Rocky by saying his opposition was crappy when they were all time greats you don't know or care about. You say Rocky fought small guys but he was the smallest of all with guys usually outweighing him.He stayed in the 180 range because he was comfortable their and unlike todays heavyweights he didn't gain 10 to 20 pounds for their next fight, gaining 5 pounds at most.I think everything you said sas proven wrong already so I can stop.

uncle_rico
07-04-2005, 12:39 PM
i think the heart of the matter is, hearns thinks 180+ lbs guys, can't knock out a 230+ lbs guys, black or white? is that correct?
hearns, feel free to correct me if i'm wrong about the point you're trying to make, but i think that's it.
so hearns, you would argue that marciano would be knocked out by klitchko and frazier would be knocked out by lewis?
if that's the case, then i disagree.
first, i think older fighters were tougher than todays fighters
(black and white).
look at guys like sugar ray robinson and jake lamotta.
they were animals who would destroy anyone today from
140 - 160.
second, obviously weight matters (otherwise why would boxing have weight classes?), but for heavies, i think it's overrated.
the day roy beat ruiz, he would have beat lewis and klitchko and mcline, all guys with what, 50 - 75lbs on roy at his heaviest?

but to help throw race out the window, let's consider this:
i think frazier and marciano are extremely similar. personally, i think marciano was slightly "better". (by better i mean a harder puncher and took less punishment.) now, some may say frazier was a little better, he fought great fighters and beat the best, some would say the rock was better, but either way, they are very very similar fighters. if you throw color out the window, i think most people would agree they were about the same.

now, it's no secret joe would gladly take 3 in order to give you 1, but against guys like foreman, that just doesn't work.
so, since i consider them the same kind of fighter, i'd say if marciano fought foreman the way frasier did, then the rock woulda lost as well.
ali beat foreman cuz he was able to outsmart him.
i think if frasier would have boxed and countered and tried to
get foreman into the later rounds, he could have beat foreman,
and i think if the rock did the same, he could beat foreman as well.
so, i think if the smaller fighter has the right plan, they can beat an equally skilled bigger guy.
notice i said "equally skilled". fraziano (frazier and marciano), would destroy guys like joe mesi and riddick bowe, even without the right plan
even those guys are huge.

frazier fought ali at what 200? 205? ali was what, 210? (the first time they fought) and they'd destroy today's heavies.

again, i think weight at the heavyweight level is overrated.
i believe fraziano could beat any of todays heavies.
i believe fraziano would destroy lewis but have more trouble
with a younger, lighter, more mobile holyfield.
i believe fraziano would destroy both klitchsco's.

50lbs from 150 to 200 is a big diff, but not so much from 200 to 250.
it's not a race thing, it's about styles and smarts.

i like fraziano over any of todays heavies.

tommyhearns804
07-04-2005, 03:40 PM
Cute post Rico but you are comparing 200 pound black fighters like Frazier who fought 200 plus pound black fighters like Foreman Ali ect ect to a 180 pound fighter like Marciano who basically fought 160 to 200 pound white fighters for the most part of his career.If you cant comprehend no 180 pound man could handle a 220 plus pound mans punch or hurt hims with his punch then as i said you are eithter retarded or racist.Name another 180 pound fighter that you think could move up to heavyweight and fight the stile Marciano had and do anything?You cant.You know why?Because Marciano is white and we all know whites are better than blacks at every thing right?Marciano was a average crusierweight who fought middleweights to crusierweights.He isnt a top 10 heavyweight or a top 100 heavyweight.Guys like Peters would rip his head off and handed it to him.People like a prime Jones would box his ass off.I never seen a more overrated athelete in my life time.How tough you think he is has nothing to do with him beating 220 plus pound guys.As i said before wasnt Frazier tough?Didnt he have alot of heart and balls?But did that matter when he fought Foreman?Nope.Foreman was to big and powerful for him.Frazier was much bigger and stronger than Marciano and Frazier wasnt a big heavyweight.And based on some of you people Foreman was the worse boxer ever.So imagine what a good figher would do to people like Maricano?
Get off this mans balls.If you want to pick a fighter because he is white then pick Vitali K.He never lost in the ring yet.He does fight black fighters.He does fight 220 plus pound men.

Kid Achilles
07-04-2005, 04:03 PM
like Marciano who basically fought 160 to 200 pound white fighters for the most part of his career.If you cant comprehend no 180 pound man could handle a 220 plus pound mans punch or hurt hims with his punch then as i said you are eithter retarded or racist.

**** this ****. You're the biggest moron on the site with an ignorance bordering on retardation. Marciano never fought a 160 lb fighter in his professional career. Not one. The vast majority of his opponents outweighed him, several were 220, and one was 254 pounds to his 183. He made a career out of beating bigger, more skilled men. That's the facts. Learn them or shut the **** up.

You put Foreman on a pedastal but he was dropped by light hitting Jimmy Young. Yes, it was mostly due to exhaustion but what does that tell you about Foreman's chances in the later rounds against the best conditioned heavyweight of all time? As for Frazier, the guy had a solid chin but was nearly put away by Bonavena who was a crude and good but not great puncher. No better than Walcott, and not better than Rex Layne. Just because Foreman bounced Joe all over the ring does not mean he'd do the same with Marciano who had an incredible constitution and could be hurt one second and completely clear headed the next.

Marciano and Frazier were two very different fighters. Marciano hit harder with both hands, had a better chin, and honestly even better endurance if you ask me. Frazier was cagiery than he is remembered for but the Rock wasn't that easy to hit clean either. I doubt you've ever even seen a Marciano fight from start to finish. You likely go by what your racist father told you. He's still bitter after losing all that money against Marciano back in the 50's.

uncle_rico
07-04-2005, 04:49 PM
hearns, i aint retarded and i aint a racist
and i aint on no one's balls.
the fighters we're talking about will never fight,
so, all we have is speculation, you can't get upset
when someone disagrees with you, cuz there is no right
answer, it's just speculation.
i personally believe the older heavies were much better than
todays, black and white.
for example, i think joe louis tears lennex louis apart.
now, if louis was white would my comment make me a racist?
c'mon man...
todays heavies are statues. that's my point.
i think size is overrated with heavy weights.
primo carnera, 6'6 260. a ****in monster,
even by todays standards would be a huge heavy.
you wouldnt say he's better than louis or marciano would you?
see where i'm going with this?
now, if you're arguing that at 6'6 260 carnera was a bum
cuz he's white and that if he was black would have dominated,
well, then you're the racist...

consider this, if tarver and jones never fought, or if johnson
and jones never fought and jones retired after
beating ruiz, what would people say about those
two "hypothetical" fights?
well, i'm a huge roy fan, so, i woulda said,
"are you nuts? tarver and johnson? those two guys are clowns compared to roy.
easy knock outs for roy in both fights".
well, as we both know, both those guys beat roy.

yes, a prime roy beats those guys easy, i totally agree, but
the point is if they never fought and someone said,
"i wonder about a fight between roy at the end of his career vs a prime tarver"
no one, i mean no one, not one person, would pick tarver.
yet, look what happened...

my point is simply this, keep an open mind cuz you never know...

more importantly, i think you need to get off the "black and white" nonesense,
cuz it has nothing to do with the discussion.
if you wanna say marciano was never really tested,
and he was a small heavyweight, that's fine.
if you wanna argue that todays athletes are bigger
and stronger than in the past (and happen to be predominantly black),
that's fine too. those are valid points.

but race has nothing to do with it.
do you think frazier can beat monsters like mcline?
how bout marciano?
if you're answer isn't "yes" to both,
then it's you who has the problem with race.

your original posts had some good points in it,
but now you're gettin emotional, like a little *****.
for real. just take it easy man.

ultimately, my opinion is, i think frazier destroys todays heavies,
and i think marciano is just as good or better than frazier,
so obviously i think marciano beats todays heavies, black and white.
i don't think the 10lb diff between marciano and frazier means anything at all.

now, your comment about frazier and foreman, yeah, joe got his ass handed to him and so would *anyone* if they fought foreman that way. if ali fought foreman the way frazier fought foreman, ali would have lost too!
ali beat foreman using his head not his size or strength. i think frazier could have done the same with a better fight plan, and maybe too could have marciano.

klitchko is a clown, so is mesi. marciano kills both those guys,
let's not discuss those guys.
plenty of other "old school" heavy weights, black and white,
destroys todays heavies.

so, leaving race out of this, your original post was that
you thought rocky did what he had to do during the time
he fought, but ultimately is overrated in an hystorical sense.
that's a fair comment, but being overrated is not the same
as saying he'd lose to tyson or tua. marciano would kill
both those guys. if marciano was black or frazier was
white would your opinions of them and who they could beat
change?

the fact is, frazier fought in what people call "the golden age of heavyweights".
so, historically, you have to rank him higher than marciano.
as a matter of fact, you have to rank him higher than holyfield even tho
holyfield in his prime prolly could have beat frazier 2 out of 3 times.
do, i believe rock could beat frazier and vice versa? sure, it could go either way,
but would i rank marciano ahead of frazier? no, cuz frazier fought
and beat the best and marciano didnt.
but again, race has nothing to do with it.

nohero
08-21-2005, 06:54 AM
See the thing about Rocky is that he always overcame his opponent when the going got tough. How can you possibly even begin to think you know what it takes or who it takes to beat Rocky when no one has ever done it? You can pick out all the flaws you want and boost up all your other heroes but each and every one of the other fighters you mentioned have lost, therefore you can easily say what it takes to beat them just by referencing their opponents' performances during those losses. With Rocky you can't say that someone is too fast (Archie Moore was not called the mongoose cause he liked to kill snakes) or too big (Rocky beat an undefeated 250 lb man very early in his career and sent him into retirement) or too technically good (Joe Louis at 37 is a better technical boxer than 99.9% of all fighters in history). No one has ever been too fast or too big or too good for Rocky and without that proof that someone could be better than him, you have no argument. With today's training and technological advances coupled with Rocky's legendary work ethic and determination he would easily be 200lbs+ and would ransack the heavyweight division like they were amateurs. You underestimate him like each of his opponents did...

tommyhearns804
08-21-2005, 02:56 PM
Lol Marciano is white you are white so of course you are going to be biased toward him.Marciano never fought a 160 pound fighter?Kid Achillies you have to be the biggest racist here or the biggest moron.Again Moore was a natural middleweight and so was Charles.Do you know how much a middleweight weighs?150 to 160 pounds.
The biggest fighter Marciano fought was Jerry Jackson a big fat tub of lard but i guess since Maricano fought him Jackson must of been better than any other fighter who ever lived right?Marciano was a 180 pound white fighter who fought basically 180 pound white fighters.
Every time Marciano fought a black fighter no matter how small they were they either dropped him or gave him the fight of his life.Niether of these black guys were true heavyweights.Basically middleweights to cruiserweight.Most of these guys were pushing 40 Moore had been down more than 30 times in his career and knocked out at least 10 a couple in the first round.Walcott had 15 plus loses when he fought Marciano and so did Charles but to try to validate that Maricano fought top fighters they are built up .
Awww Foreman was knocked down by Young your point being?Foreman went down because he was dead tired ...after the fight he was walking about butt naked claiming he seen god.Everybody here knows Foreman has one of the best chins in boxing history.Marciano is better than Frazier?At doing what ?Ducking black guys until they are almost 40?Wait at fighting natural middleweights like Moore and being knocked down with one punch?Or is it taking 9 round to knock out a 45 year old man who was knocked out by middleweights before but yet Maricano had to keep knocking Moore down over and over before he finally stayed down.Frazier fought legendary fighters in their primes.Foreman,Ali,Quarry,Bonevena.Who did Maricano fight?Big Bill Wilson and a bunch of other no named low level fighters.
Maricano is the most unskilled person to ever be called heavyweight champion.The man was only 180 pounds but his hand and foot speed was slower than any other heavyweight champion in mordern boxing history.If you want to talk about wide punches just watch how Marciano threw his punches.
Maricano's chin is highly overrated.He was knocked down by a middleweight with one punch.How many people think Foreman,Tyson,Frazier,Bower,Tua ect could be knocked down with one punch by a 45 year old middleweight?If a middleweight could drop him with one punch then can you imagine what a 230 pound man who could punch would do to Marciano?
Maricano's punching power is overrated.Who did he knock out worth mentioning?Just past their prime fighters who all had glass chins.Most of the other fighters he knocked out were light heavyweights.Look at Holyfields record when he was at cruiserweight.His ko percenatage was just as high as Marciano's and Holyfield didnt pile up his ko's fighting bums like Marciano did and nor did Holyfield fight in a era where he could use little gloves like Marciano wore.
When Holyfield moved up to fight 230 pound fighters what happeened?His power vanished.You know why?Because Holyfield isnt a true heavyweight and nor was Maricano so the same would of happened to him.The only difference was Holyfield didnt just fight small white guys he knew he could beat like Marciano did so Holyfields power at 190 pounds was actually real.
Holyfield also had skill.So he could counter punch and move and do other things besides try to go for the knock out.Marciano's goal was to come in and wing punches against bums until they went down.Trying this against the Tysons of the world would of gotten his face smashed in.
Let me say this first i know most of you whites aren't racist or biased at all.But the ones who are racist really take their stupidity to far.No man in sports history is built up like Marciano is.Marciano was a average fighter at best who was lucky he could be only 180 pounds and fight other 180 pounds but yet be considered a great heavyweight when he wasn't a heavyweight and he didnt fight heavyweights.Marciano was luck to be in a era where you could just fight white guys for the most part of your career ducking any black man you knew could beat you until they got really old.Maricano is lucky to fight in a era where the mafia controlled boxing .
Maricano isnt a top anything heavyweight because the man wasnt a heavyweight just a slow unskilled cruiserweight.

rocco1252
08-21-2005, 05:35 PM
Ali vs Marciano, computer fight who won? There you go

Troy Fine
08-22-2005, 10:58 AM
listen im tired of these dumb basards that have only seen like 2 of marciano's fights and think they know the world, listen ali didnt really have that much better of competion it was just he was famous so they got famous, and then all of a sudden they fight better? Charles i believe would of beat any of ali's opponenets you know how i know becuase he was amazing i watch him fight he has skill i watch a forman or frazier though they are badass arent that skilled and they were unorthodox as hell

tommyhearns804
08-22-2005, 04:25 PM
Lol Foreman and Frazier were unskilled but Maricano is skilled?Yeah only to racist white guys who have to pull white fighters out of their ass all the time.I seen at least 10 or Maricano's fights child.He wasn't skilled period.No heavyweight fighter who ever won the title was as unskilled as Maricano.
Lol and Rico just dont make anymore post period.Maricano would kill Tua?That comment makes you the most racist guy i ever seen make a post in any boxing forum.Maricano had problems knocking out Moore a glass chin middleweight who was knocked out at least 10 times in his career and knocked down at least 30 more.But some how Maricano would knock out Tua?A man who never been down as a pro.A man who fights skilled 230 plus pound men who can punch but just walks through their punches as if they were nothing.Foreman is my favorite heavyweight and i can't even imagine him putting Tua down.
Your stupidity is alarming.Marciano was knocked down by both Walcott and Moore with one punch.Tua is a far better puncher than Moore or Walcott could ever dream of becoming.Tua would literally kill Marciano.If Maricano got out of one round with Tua it would be the biggest shock in boxing history.
Vitali Klitchko has never been down as a pro and if far more skilled than Tua who is far more skilled than Marciano.Vitali is 6'8 250 pounds and has fought guys like Lewis who is about what 6'5 240 pounds and never been down but yeah if he fouht a 5'9 180 pound slow little cruiserweight he would be destroyed right?
Let me try to break this down for you slow again since it seems when somebody mentions how pathetic Maricano was it hurts your little feelings.How many people of this post think Foster could knock out guys like Tyson,Frazier,Foreman ect ect ect?As a light heavyweight Foster was never hurt and his power was incredible.Foster is only about 5 or so pounds smaller than Maricano was and is far more skilled.What happened when Foster moved up?He was knocked out by every decent fighter he fought right?So what makes Marciano so special?
Lets do another example.Micheal Spinks.He too was a light heavyweight only a few pounds lighter than Maricano.He did more than Foster did at heavyweight but not much more.He fought Holmes a guy with no punch and robbed Holmes twice,He beat Cooney when Cooney was strong out on cocaine,And then Tyson beat the shyt out of him.
Moorer is the last example.As a light heavyweight he knocked out everybody he faced which means he could punch at that weight class.Moorer was never hurt period as a light heavyweight.The only fighters to hurt Moorer were people naturally alot bigger than him.Moorer is very skilled by did that matter when he fought guys who were bigger and stronger than he was?Moorer didn't keep knocking out his opponents so again why would Maricano be able to do this?
The only reason i can think of is his skin color.Whites need to put Marciano on a pedistal and blacks need to put fighters like Tyson on a pedistal.Maricano fans will never get that Marciano isn't a heavyweight period.95 percent of the guys he fought were either cruiserweights or light heavyweights.You can't compare 180 pound man who fights 180 pound men to guys who fight 230 plus pound fighters.Tyson fans will never get that Tyson never beat any world class fighters in his prime.They will never get that Tyson was a coward who was destroyed everytime he faced somebody who didnt have a glass chin or were not afraid of him.
I could try to explain this to you until i am blue in the face but you will never get it.If you people keep being dumb i will find you all and beat you right in the head. :boxing:

DMikeS4321
08-28-2005, 05:41 AM
I've watched many Marciano tapes and your post is the most accurate reflection of the kind of fighter he was. Rocky was what Mike Tyson was SUPPOSED to be, a FREAKISHLY strong heavyweight in a smaller frame, someone whose punching power was WAY out of proportion to his size and weight. Ali did need to recover after an exhibition match with Rocky, and Marciano was deep into his 40's, having done only a little warm-up before the filming of their famous "computer scored" fight, which Rocky won. If I remember correctly, Ali, with all his ego, still said he would not have wanted to face Rocky in his prime. There was no bullsh*t from Ali about Marciano, just respect, and it wasn't because Ali was overly polite.

DMikeS4321
08-28-2005, 06:07 AM
Hearns,

You said:

"Number 2 Joe Louis was overrated.And just becuase he said he couldnt beat Marciano in his prime means what?Louis was only 200 pounds himself and had a glass chin."

So, even Joe Louis was punk??

"And Louis said in the late 70's that Foreman was the best heavyweight he ever seen."

What happened to Foreman then, when he fought Ali??

"And Ali never said Marciano was tough at 45."

The hell he didn't!! It was no secret that the "exhibition" between the two was brutal, and Ali (and his camp) were clear about it afterward. I saw Ali speak about Marciano after their encounter, and there was no bluff, no BS, just respect.

"And if he did it was to be nice.Marciano is white.If Ali bad mouthed a white fighter like Marciano the press would of ripped him."

Now we all know you've been smoking too much crack. Ali didn't give a SH*T about what the press said about him. He had already been ripped about his refusal to go to war, and he sure wasn't shy about his Nation of Islam affiliation. You are grasping as straws here...

Put down the pipe, look up some Maricano fight tapes and read about some of the things he did to his opponents. An earlier post mentioned teeth driven into gums, broken jaws, dislocated shoulders. Today's heavyweights don't fight like that; they just aren't that tough. This point is obvious given the 12 round limit; the pacing and drive was different in those days, and the fighters just had to be tougher. Remember when football players used leather helmets with no faceguards? Remember when hockey goalies didn't wear masks? Same thing.

Best Regards

Popeye
09-01-2005, 01:19 AM
he's still rated in the top 5 in my book, easily, tough guy...helluva puncher....

kmac
09-02-2005, 09:49 PM
Hard to rank any fighters of different generations. He dominated his and two good opponents with Charles and Walcott. I think he is a top five heavy of all time

karlygash
09-07-2005, 03:09 PM
***1099;***1082;***1083;***1085;***1077;***1083;***1076;***1075; ***1100;***1088;***1087;***1083;***1088;***1076;***1073;***1085;***1075;***1086;***1076; ***1077;***1085;***1083;***1086;***1077;***1085;***1083;***1076;***1085;***1076;

Dempsey 1919
03-08-2006, 05:53 PM
I do believe marciano is overrated. but he is not as bad as tommyhearns804 makes him out to be.

marciano would beat any fighter today in a boxing match, and do it handily. no way toney a natural middleweight or lighthw would beat him. and as for ruiz, he would get pounded. valeuv would be handled with ease and be stopped early. tua would lose a md or ud, i doubt he has the skills to beat the rock.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-08-2006, 05:59 PM
I do believe marciano is overrated. but he is not as bad as tommyhearns804 makes him out to be.

marciano would beat any fighter today in a boxing match, and do it handily. no way toney a natural middleweight or lighthw would beat him. and as for ruiz, he would get pounded. valeuv would be handled with ease and be stopped early. tua would lose a md or ud, i doubt he has the skills to beat the rock.

he'd beat Many (not all persay) fighters from all era's its just they wouldn't be as easy as bloated middleweights

Da Iceman
03-08-2006, 08:07 PM
I do believe marciano is overrated. but he is not as bad as tommyhearns804 makes him out to be.

marciano would beat any fighter today in a boxing match, and do it handily. no way toney a natural middleweight or lighthw would beat him. and as for ruiz, he would get pounded. valeuv would be handled with ease and be stopped early. tua would lose a md or ud, i doubt he has the skills to beat the rock.
nice to see you own up

smasher
03-08-2006, 08:57 PM
Marciano: One man's opinion

22.10.03 - By Robert Bennett - I gave great respect for the achievements of Rocky Marciano. A champion can do no more then defeat the fighters placed in front of him, and make sure those fighters are the best available. Rocky Marciano did that, and regardless of the relative strength or weakness of a division in any era, a man that can do that is worthy of praise. How much praise is due however, is the question I pose.

Marciano is often ranked inside the top ten heavyweights of all time by various fans and writers, but one must wonder on what basis he is ranked. A record of 49-0 is impressive indeed but his record was only allowed to run to such extents because he was shut out of the title picture for so long. I rather imagine many a fighter in history would have also taken his record into the forties and fifties without loss if he wasn't fighting the cream of the division.

His first victory over a legitimate contender did not come until his 25th fight against Carmine Vingo. By the time he reached 40-0, Marciano had only four legitimate contenders on his resume, and one of those was the sad swansong of the great Joe Louis. Another was Roland LaStarza, who is famous for losing the barest of decisions to Marciano in a fight many observers felt he should have won. The other two fighters were Vingo of course, and Rex Layne, neither of which rate barely a mention in historical circles.

In stark comparison, Evander Holyfield was thrust into the top of the sport by his twelth fight, and remained undefeated until his 29th fight. The staggering difference is that by the time of his first defeat, Holyfield had faced and defeated at least fifteen contenders who were as good or better then the four Marciano had defeated by forty fights, and yet Holyfield himself struggles for recognition inside the top ten because unlike Marciano, he does not have the benefit of an undefeated record aiding his abilities in the eyes of many observers. As for Marciano's magical '0', that only remained because of the relatively short period of time that Marciano spent fighting at the top of the division. Count them eight fights, a heavyweight title eliminator and seven title fights. There are literally dozens of heavyweights who have remained active at the top for longer than that.

Whether intentional or not, Marciano was protected in much the same way that a Joe Mesi now is. Whether Mesi is a genuine talent is yet to be proven, but it is amazing that Marciano's record does not draw as much criticism as todays protected prospects. It is taboo, almost blasphemous to criticise the quality and depth of the names on Rocky's winlist, because of the mythical status that has been heaped upon his 'world record' 49-0.

Seven successful title fights is commendable, but when broken down not as impressive as many of his contemporaries. His two biggest name victims during his title reign were two victories each over Ezzard Charles and Jersey Joe Walcott. Charles was done as a top level fighter, as evidenced by the two decisions he dropped in the year before his first Marciano fight, and a little after a year after the second fight, had dropped a further four fights. As for Walcott, 23 years and 70 fights after his pro debut, many would have you believe that he remained a force to be reckoned with. No one is denying that Walcott was cagey and skillful, even in his advanced age, but putting him on a pedestal to lift the significance of Rocky's wins over him is a joke. No champion in history enjoyed the sort of longetivity attributed to Walcott, and Marciano was in danger of being defeated by both Walcott and Charles at some stage.

The trouble Marciano had with fighters like Walcott, Charles and LaStarza leads me to believe that a fighter like Larry Holmes would have cut him up with his piston jab and stopped him. And due to both size and skill, Foreman, would have decimated him. And to those that have fantasised about it, Marciano would have been no match for Muhammad Ali. Rocky struggled against far lesser fighters than Ali, and would not have been able to deal with the combination of speed, skill, power and smarts that felled more great heavyweights than any fighter before or after him.

Rocky Marciano, skilled and powerful, but vastly overrated in a historical sense.

I agree with most of this. I altered the last paragraph on the article to suit my opinion. Jones, Toney and Klitchko is a bit of a stretch while I'm undecided abot Lewis and Bowe.

RockyMarcianofan00
03-08-2006, 10:00 PM
I agree with most of this. I altered the last paragraph on the article to suit my opinion. Jones, Toney and Klitchko is a bit of a stretch while I'm undecided abot Lewis and Bowe.
hey all i can say is that he beat who they put in front of him and the only "controversial decision" had a reason for it, also wouldn't have happened in 70's because they would have stopped the fight against vingo and then he would have trained harder for lastarza and it wouldn't have been controversial

i mean most of the fights he had he easily won, so can't ask for much more

smasher
03-08-2006, 10:11 PM
hey all i can say is that he beat who they put in front of him and the only "controversial decision" had a reason for it, also wouldn't have happened in 70's because they would have stopped the fight against vingo and then he would have trained harder for lastarza and it wouldn't have been controversial

i mean most of the fights he had he easily won, so can't ask for much more

You can only beat who they put in front of you and Marciano did just that.

Heckler
03-09-2006, 01:08 AM
I'll admit it, I'm a Rocky fan. Why, because despite all of his weaknesses, he found a way to win.

You know what, he fought the top opposition in his final 8 fights and won them all. No tune ups or ducking fights. In all rocky rematchs he dominated the fights and after that anyone up against Rock would be unfair. There was no one left to fight and little money to make in rematchs you dominate. He said he had a few more fights left in him but no one to fight.

In the end, I think the top heavies have a good chance at beating Rocky the first time on points because Rocky was a slow starter, but in rematchs Rocky gets them all.

Edit: You can't use Rocky's size to determine if he wins or not. You got to match up his style. You have to think shorter Joe Frazier with a little more power in the body punchs and a stonger right hand. Rocky has a high work rate in about 20 punchs a round and that was why he weighed 185, because he had great stamina. Rocky could gain weight but didn't need too, at 185 because he had great punching power from leavrage. Rocky's size as makes him hard to hit and his reach doesn't matter fights, because of his swarmer style. He was a slow starter and needed 15th rounds. With 12 round fights he would get decisioned more.


RJJ, has skills and speed but his punches wouldn't hurt Rocky. So I think Rocky would get knock down a few times but not respect RJJ's power, walk thru one of the punchs and knock him out in the mid-late rounds.

Lewis would be killed against a hard hitting active fighter because he would not be able to hide behind that jab of his for 12 rounds. Lewis might get a knock down or two but Rocky gets up fired up, tires out Lewis in the late rounds and find his mark on that weak jaw eventually.

Foreman, He might lose because Frazier and Rocky had similiar fight style. Frazier was tough as well. On paper Foreman has the edge.

Frazier, Rocky fought the same style and was better at it, tougher, and hit harder. Rocky gets the nod

Vitali klitskho, who he win against? Look at who beat him? How many hall of famers has he won against? Yeah he has size but that makes him a lot slower and a bigger target for Rocky. You think Klitskho good fighting on the inside? Hell, no

Ali, when Rocky was 45 and Ali was 26, Ali got knockd down against Rocky with a single body shot in an exhibition match. He had a hard time even hitting Rocky and keeping him away with his jab for a one min round. Ali was out of shape though but still in his prime while Rocky was 12 years removed from boxing.
Edit: Ali had problems against Frazier who had the same style as Marciano, short and a swarmer. Frazier should've won 2/3 and Marciano had a little more power in both hands. Marciano wins 2/3.

Holmes, The jab would be enough to stop Rocky. Late round stoppage. EDIT: I think Holmes has a good chance at pulling a decision as well if he doesn't get TKO or stoppage on cuts. Rocky would win in a 15 round fight but not 12 rounder. Rematch, Rocky wins all the way, mid round KO. Rocky figure out te jab by then.

Edit: Toney has a a great defense but Archie moore was known for a great, maybe greatest defense. That's why he had such a long career. Rocky win against Toney like he did against Moore. Toney's defense is not that good for a combo puncher like Rocky with power in both hands. Toney have to bring both hands up and lack the offense to keep Rocky away.

Sorry the 'marciano dropped ali' is a total myth. Ali beat Frazier twice, without a doubt. Beat him in manila, not only did he outpoint him (clearly IMO) in the 2nd fight he should of knocked him down int he 2nd round, the ref ****ed it up. There is not one historian on the planet i have come acreoss, or read opinions from that thinks marciano would beat Ali in a trilogy. Marciano wasn't great defensively, didn't move aswell as Frazier, and didn't have the handspeed or accuracy to neutralise Ali on the inside when he would OCASSIONALLY get on the inside. Any person that thinks clearly should conclude Ali would outpoint rocky or stop him on cuts at 2/3 times if not 3/3 times. Marciano barely beat Walcott, hes not going to beat Ali 2/3. Marciano was a great fighter and definately a top 10 if not 5, but probably the most overrated fighter ever. He fought nobody at the peak of their powers. Marciano although usually extremely effective with it, had a very simplistic style and Ali would find too many ways to adapt and neutralise him. The words of a wise historian 'Ali would be too fast and fancy for the rock', simplistic arguement but true.

Southpaw Stinger
03-09-2006, 08:29 AM
Sorry the 'marciano dropped ali' is a total myth. Ali beat Frazier twice, without a doubt. Beat him in manila, not only did he outpoint him (clearly IMO) in the 2nd fight he should of knocked him down int he 2nd round, the ref ****ed it up. There is not one historian on the planet i have come acreoss, or read opinions from that thinks marciano would beat Ali in a trilogy. Marciano wasn't great defensively, didn't move aswell as Frazier, and didn't have the handspeed or accuracy to neutralise Ali on the inside when he would OCASSIONALLY get on the inside. Any person that thinks clearly should conclude Ali would outpoint rocky or stop him on cuts at 2/3 times if not 3/3 times. Marciano barely beat Walcott, hes not going to beat Ali 2/3. Marciano was a great fighter and definately a top 10 if not 5, but probably the most overrated fighter ever. He fought nobody at the peak of their powers. Marciano although usually extremely effective with it, had a very simplistic style and Ali would find too many ways to adapt and neutralise him. The words of a wise historian 'Ali would be too fast and fancy for the rock', simplistic arguement but true.

Very true!

And a great article by tommyhearns

RockyMarcianofan00
03-09-2006, 04:38 PM
Sorry the 'marciano dropped ali' is a total myth. Ali beat Frazier twice, without a doubt. Beat him in manila, not only did he outpoint him (clearly IMO) in the 2nd fight he should of knocked him down int he 2nd round, the ref ****ed it up. There is not one historian on the planet i have come acreoss, or read opinions from that thinks marciano would beat Ali in a trilogy. Marciano wasn't great defensively, didn't move aswell as Frazier, and didn't have the handspeed or accuracy to neutralise Ali on the inside when he would OCASSIONALLY get on the inside. Any person that thinks clearly should conclude Ali would outpoint rocky or stop him on cuts at 2/3 times if not 3/3 times. Marciano barely beat Walcott, hes not going to beat Ali 2/3. Marciano was a great fighter and definately a top 10 if not 5, but probably the most overrated fighter ever. He fought nobody at the peak of their powers. Marciano although usually extremely effective with it, had a very simplistic style and Ali would find too many ways to adapt and neutralise him. The words of a wise historian 'Ali would be too fast and fancy for the rock', simplistic arguement but true.

not really, its cause he was blinded for a few rounds, if it wasn't for those 4 rounds ( i believe it was) then he would have been ahead on pts and would have Ko'd him much earlier so

SuzieQ49
03-13-2006, 06:59 PM
heckler u dont give marciano enough credit.


walcott and moore were certainly at there best when they fought rocky, charles fought the finest fight of his career in 1st marciano fight and though he was past it, he was still a great fighter who was extremely dangerous. all 3 were great fighters when they fought marciano


roland lastarza was at his peak, so was layne. louis was far gone, but still a formidable fighter.



i think frazier matches up better vs ali than marciano. but marciano was defintley the better inside fighter than frazier.

Kid Achilles
03-13-2006, 09:19 PM
Very true!

And a great article by tommyhearns

But he didn't write that article at all. Robert Bennett did.

Heckler
03-13-2006, 10:43 PM
There is always a convenient exscuse. Marciano was loosing on points because Walcott was able to easily outbox him due to the large disparity in SKILL. I give Marciano his due credit, but im going to BLINDLY buy into his fight record. He was undefeated because his opposition was weak, simple. Archie Moore was what 42? and a Light Heavyweight. Archie was at his best in the forties, not in HIS forties. He was a great fighter - and i am not denying this, but often overrated as a result of a couple of numbers that sit beside his name. People never research the circumstances behind these numbers. The only good figher he fought at their peak was Walcott, Ezzard was not at his peak but still put up a brilliant performance. Apart from Walcott, ezzard, and Moore... whom are RARELY in any historians top 10, who did he beat? Roland La Starza one might say.... La Starza was a solid boxer, but nothing spectacular.

Put Joe Frazier, George Foreman, Muhammad Ali, Larry Holmes, Sonny Liston, Joe Louis, maybe even Jack Dempsey and Mike Tyson against Rockys competition... and its quite likely they would be undefeated also.

SuzieQ49
03-13-2006, 11:28 PM
There is always a convenient exscuse. Marciano was loosing on points because Walcott was able to easily outbox him due to the large disparity in SKILL



woa woa woa. "easily outbox"?

the fight was close, alot closer than the myth many people buy into.


i had the fight scored 7 rounds to 5 walcott after 12 rounds, as do most people. thats a close fight!


also u forget to mention marciano lost 3 rounds due to blindess! if u take away those 3 rounds he lost BECAUSE HE COULDNT SEE guess what the scores are?


i know a guy who thinks rocky would have knocked walcott out in the 6th or 7th round if he didnt get blinded, because he felt rocky was really starting to get to walcott before he was blinded which shifted the momentum back in walcotts favor.



Archie Moore was what 42? and a Light Heavyweight. Archie was at his best in the forties, not in HIS forties.


archie was 38



archie was a better fighter in early 1950s than in the 1940s



besides archie moore had a long 12 year heavyweight career. archie when he fought marciano was in his heavyweight prime.


i rate moore in my top 35 heavyweights of all time. he deserves it!



lastarza was certainly a very good fighter, a master counterpuncher with great skill. I rate lastarza in my top 20 best heavyweights never to win a title.


joe louis was well past his prime, but he was still a formidable fighter when he fought rocky.

i think even a 1950s joe louis beats zora folley


it took great fighters like rocky and ezzard to beat a 1950s joe louis


rex layne in his short prime was a good heavyweight and dangerous top contender. he beat jersey joe walcott BEFORE walcott won the title and knocked out bob satterfield. layne was 34-1 (27) highly touted # 1 contender from utah. he was being touted as the next heavyweight champion.

layne was never the same fighter after suffering brutal back to back KO losses to marciano and charles.


here is a response from a joe C who saw rex layne fight live

"Throw out the record book on Layne, he was a rugged brawler with a quick, very heavy right. As he got shopworn and discouraged, more and more, he got outworked and beaten down.

But, when he first raged out of Utah -- full of piss and vinegar -- he'd have been a handful for anybody. He could crack with that right."




u say who did he beat?


yet charles, walcott, moore were all still great fighters when they fought rocky. thats 3 great fighters rocky beat.

add good fighters and dangerous top contenders joe louis, roland lastarza, rex layne, harry kid mathews



i mean what makes holmes compettion so much better? what makes listons so much better? what makes lennox lewis's so much better?



rocky lacks quantity. he did not beat a wide range of good depth which is why i take off points. but he did beat great list of quality.


rocky could have and probably should have fought a bob baker, nino valdes, earl walls, bob satterfield, clarence henry, hurricane jackson, but fact is he didnt need to fight these guys.

Marvelous63
03-13-2006, 11:34 PM
heckler u dont give marciano enough credit.


walcott and moore were certainly at there best when they fought rocky, charles fought the finest fight of his career in 1st marciano fight and though he was past it, he was still a great fighter who was extremely dangerous. all 3 were great fighters when they fought marciano


roland lastarza was at his peak, so was layne. louis was far gone, but still a formidable fighter.



i think frazier matches up better vs ali than marciano. but marciano was defintley the better inside fighter than frazier.


Ali is a bad matchup for Rocky. Ali's sharp, stinging punches would open up some bad cuts or some serious swelling on rocky. IMO, the fight gets stopped in somewhere around the 10th. with Ali winning about 8 of the rounds

dwidsid3d
03-04-2007, 09:49 AM
Rocky Marciano would lose against George Foreman. Too big and powerful with a style that was made for swarmers such as Marciano.
Foreman by brutal tko.

In a fight versus Lennox Lewis, I believe Marciano could win. Lewis would be alot bigger and would make it difficult for Marciano with his reach and power. How ever, Marciano would never give up and Lewis would tire after 7-8 rounds. Considering Lewis´ weak chin, Marciano would only need one solid shot. A tired, worn down Lewis would not be able to keep Marciano off him for long, and sooner or later the "Susie Q" would reach its target.
Marciano by ko.

Roy Jones Jr would present a bigger problem for Marciano than would Lewis in my opinion. His speed and incredible boxing ability would make it very difficult for Marciano to catch him. But the key would be Marcianos stamina and heart. He would keep on coming. Even though Jones would control the fight and be way ahead on the score cards, Marciano would more likely than not get to him in the later rounds.
Marciano by late ko.

Muhammad Ali would most likely defeat Marciano by decision (or possibly by cut - Marciano cut easily and Ali had a ripping jab). How ever, he would have to struggle for his victory. This would be no walk in the park for Ali. Marciano would put pressure on him and make him fight. This is something Ali always hated, and he was in great disadvantage against a good swarmer. Still, Ali had lots of stamina and a solid chin. He fought some of the hardest punchers the ring has ever seen, and was never knocked out. This gives him the edge.
Ali by UD.

Larry Holmes would struggle even more than would Ali, but I also see him surviving to win by decision. He had an iron chin and was very skillful with an incredible jab. A late knockout by Marciano would not surprise me very much, but 2 out of 3 times, Holmes makes it to the final bell and takes home a comfortable win.
Holmes by UD.

A Marciano-Toney fight would be an all out war. Marciano would make this a slugfest, and no way in hell would Toney survive trading bombs with Marciano. His power, chin, heart and stamina makes it impossible for Toney to defeat him.
Marciano by ko.

V. Klitschko is a big man, but I see Marciano using his lesser height to his advantage, moving in under Klitschkos reach and pounding his body with ripping shots. Then he would follow up with some crushing blows to the head, and Vitali sucks canvas.
Marciano by early ko.

YOUR JUST A ****** RACIST