I thought of an idea that could create some great debate and historical analysis.

Excluding Sugar Ray Robinson or Henry Armstrong from this entire thread, pick a fighter and make an argument why they should be ranked the best p4p fighter ever.

I'll start by picking Harry Greb.

Greb beat a who's who of great fighters during his era, including giving Gene Tunney his only loss. Never accused of ducking anybody, but it has often been said that heavyweight champ Jack Dempsey ducked him.

Muhamamd Ali. Beat the best heavyweights during the '60s and '70s that includes several all-time great heavyweights. Was nearly unbeatable in his prime.

Muhamamd Ali. Beat the best heavyweights during the '60s and '70s that includes several all-time great heavyweights. Was nearly unbeatable in his prime.

Ok, here's where the fun starts.

Im going to discredit Ali in favor of Harry Greb. This is by no means a knock on any fighters, only an entertaining exercise in boxing history.

while Ali resume is superb, it isn't quite as good as Grebs and he was in entirely to many controversial fights to be considered number one. In his prime he was almost put out by a small Henry Cooper and given fits by Doug Jones.

On the other hand, Harry Greb was taking it to all the top fighters of the day all the way from middleweight to heavyweight.

Ok, here's where the fun starts.

Im going to discredit Ali in favor of Harry Greb. This is by no means a knock on any fighters, only an entertaining exercise in boxing history.

while Ali resume is superb, it isn't quite as good as Grebs and he was in entirely to many controversial fights to be considered number one. In his prime he was almost put out by a small Henry Cooper and given fits by Doug Jones.

On the other hand, Harry Greb was taking it to all the top fighters of the day all the way from middleweight to heavyweight.

Maybe so. But at least he didn't get beat by the same fighter (Tunney) a billion times.

Maybe so. But at least he didn't get beat by the same fighter (Tunney) a billion times.

Gene Tunney is probably on most top 50 p4p lists and was also heavyweight champion. No shame in losing to him, but a great accomplishment just beating him.

Greb is hard to argue. But echoing another thread, I put forth Ezzard Charles. Greatest LH ever, dominated the entire decade of the 40s, beat Archie Moore 3 times (3-0), beat Joey Maxim 4 times (4-0), beat Charley Burley twice (2-0), etc. (long list of quality opponents). Never got a shot at the title at 175. Moved up to heavyweight, beat Jersey Joe Walcott for the vacant title, became the 2nd man to beat (faded) Joe Louis, then beat Walcott again. Lost to Walcott twice, then stuck around and challenged Rocky Marciano twice (by which time Lou Gehrig's Disease was setting in), and came as close as anyone to beating Marciano in their 2nd fight on cuts.
I have him at 3 behind Robinson and Armstrong. Ahead of Greb, Duran, and Pep.

Sam Langford could be argued on resume..

He faught from LW to HW with most of his fights being from MW to HW..

Here are the highlights of his career

Harry Wills x 23
Sam McVey x 15
Joe Jeannette x 14
Jim Barry x 12
Jeff Clark x 11
Jack Thompson x 9
Battling Jim Johnson x 12
Fireman Jim Flynn x 6
Bill Tate x 8
Young Peter Jackson x 4
Jack Blackburn x 4
Fred Fulton x 2
Dixie Kidd x 2
Larry Temple x 3
Gunboat Smith x 2
Phily Jack O'Brien
Iron William Hague
Willie Meehan
Kid Norfolk

With the exceptions of Wills, Barry, Meehan & Fulton, Langford had the better of all the above exchanges..

Most importantly, although never being allowed to fight for a title, here is his record of the world champs that he fought..

Won Joe Gans
Won Tiger Flowers
Won Stanley Ketchell
Drew Joe Walcott
Lost Jack Johnson

I'd say Langford was a P4P ATG, wouldn't you?

Sam Langford could be argued on resume..

He faught from LW to HW with most of his fights being from MW to HW..

Here are the highlights of his career

Harry Wills x 23
Sam McVey x 15
Joe Jeannette x 14
Jim Barry x 12
Jeff Clark x 11
Jack Thompson x 9
Battling Jim Johnson x 12
Fireman Jim Flynn x 6
Bill Tate x 8
Young Peter Jackson x 4
Jack Blackburn x 4
Fred Fulton x 2
Dixie Kidd x 2
Larry Temple x 3
Gunboat Smith x 2
Phily Jack O'Brien
Iron William Hague
Willie Meehan
Kid Norfolk

With the exceptions of Wills, Barry, Meehan & Fulton, Langford had the better of all the above exchanges..

Most importantly, although never being allowed to fight for a title, here is his record of the world champs that he fought..

Won Joe Gans
Won Tiger Flowers
Won Stanley Ketchell
Drew Joe Walcott
Lost Jack Johnson

I'd say Langford was a P4P ATG, wouldn't you?

Going on resume alone.....Langford is tough to argue.
I was actually waiting to see his name come up (how couldn't i?) to see the real arguments start. I'll attempt to present an argument tomorrow, bit intoxicated at the moment.

Ummmmm bob fitzsimmons

first to win titles in middle light heavy and heavy. beat corrbet sharkey rulhin non parriell dempsey george gardner and almost beat chyonisky by ko if it wernt for the police. 45 out of 50 wins were ko's. ko'ed 7 men in one night 200+ and all over 6 foot only took 19 rounds.

notable battles with philly jack obrien and jim jeffries.

all at 5' 11 1/2" and weighing around 170

Going on resume alone.....Langford is tough to argue.
I was actually waiting to see his name come up (how couldn't i?) to see the real arguments start. I'll attempt to present an argument tomorrow, bit intoxicated at the moment.

Damn greb and langford gone, or can we double up? I'll have a go at langford over greb, harry was only blind in one eye when he lost to tiger flowers twice, Sam was blind in both eyes when he beat flowers :)

Damn greb and langford gone, or can we double up? I'll have a go at langford over greb, harry was only blind in one eye when he lost to tiger flowers twice, Sam was blind in both eyes when he beat flowers :)

With all due respect to Sam, Harry was at the end of his days and arguably won those fights. Tough not to give Langford his due though, I have a hard time arguing against considering his circumstances. I'll come back with something later just for the sake of argument and ****s and giggles!

Damn greb and langford gone, or can we double up? I'll have a go at langford over greb, harry was only blind in one eye when he lost to tiger flowers twice, Sam was blind in both eyes when he beat flowers :)
True that! Well partially sighted, at least..

With all due respect to Sam, Harry was at the end of his days and arguably won those fights. Tough not to give Langford his due though, I have a hard time arguing against considering his circumstances. I'll come back with something later just for the sake of argument and ****s and giggles!

I would have picked Greb to champion 1st but it's your thread so I've piggy backed Mickey's pick. I do suggest one amendment to the game though, Robinson can be chosen but only by Slimey :)

True that! Well partially sighted, at least..partially sighted is generous think he only was winning at that stage because his hearing was good!

partially sighted is generous think he only was winning at that stage because his hearing was good!
Hahaha Very witty indeed, old boy!... You did make me laugh, but your not too far from the truth, shall we say?

With all due respect to Sam, Harry was at the end of his days and arguably won those fights.Tough not to give Langford his due though, I have a hard time arguing against considering his circumstances. I'll come back with something later just for the sake of argument and ****s and giggles!

Whoah just noticed you crafty sod! Agree Harry was at the end of his days as he was only how many years younger than Langford was in the relative Flowers fights. it does sound like Greb didn't get any favours in the decisions but maybe he should have been like Sam and carried the referee in his gloves :)

lol i can make an argument for so many now that you took those two out. someone already said ali which would be next for me. heres my argument for rjj. mabye not the best resume compared to all time greats. but he literally didnt lose a round in his hayday. arguably too fast for any fighter ever. best combination of speed and power ive seen since tyson.

floyd mayweather jr.- a solid resume considering he is still active and may add several more big time names to his list. one of the best technical fighters i have ever watched. he is one of the fastest fighters in the game, along with his second to none mind in the ring. top notch conditioning, floyd is a throwback could have been a 15 round fighter.

floyd mayweather jr.- a solid resume considering he is still active and may add several more big time names to his list. one of the best technical fighters i have ever watched. he is one of the fastest fighters in the game, along with his second to none mind in the ring. top notch conditioning, floyd is a throwback could have been a 15 round fighter.
I think you had better put a tin helmet on championing Mayweather, I wish you luck :)

Carlos "Escopeta" Monzon-nuff said.:boxing: A BEAST who could both punch and box you to death. And he never lost a serious fight. Beat Briscoe, Benvenuti, Napoles, Griffith, Bogs, Moyer, Bouttier, Valdez...

Carlos "Escopeta" Monzon-nuff said.:boxing: A BEAST who could both punch and box you to death. And he never lost a serious fight. Beat Briscoe, Benvenuti, Napoles, Griffith, Bogs, Moyer, Bouttier, Valdez...
I'd champion Monzon as the greatest ATMW, but not P4P.. In my opinion, these have to be the guys who won 100+ fights, or were great in more than one division..

In response to sammiza 567, Roy Jones is a good argument, but there's 2 arguments against Mayweather, too soon? or too late? He's the best technical fighter I've seen to, but he just isn't active enough.. Jimmy Wilde would be a better suggestion.. He had all the Mayweather moves, but a much harder punch, and would fight every day if you let him..

I'd champion Monzon as the greatest ATMW, but not P4P.. In my opinion, these have to be the guys who won 100+ fights, or were great in more than one division..

In response to sammiza 567, Roy Jones is a good argument, but there's 2 arguments against Mayweather, too soon? or too late? He's the best technical fighter I've seen to, but he just isn't active enough.. Jimmy Wilde would be a better suggestion.. He had all the Mayweather moves, but a much harder punch, and would fight every day if you let him..

Well, Monzon came close at 87 wins.;) :boxing: Name me one other famous fighter with 87 wins and only three losses.

Well, Monzon came close at 87 wins.;) :boxing: Name me one other famous fighter with 87 wins and only three losses.
Chavez, over 100 wins and a handful of losses

Chavez, over 100 wins and a handful of losses

But he had SIX losses.;) Whatever.

Well, Monzon came close at 87 wins.;) :boxing: Name me one other famous fighter with 87 wins and only three losses.
Duilio Loi had 115 wins and 3 defeats..

Duilio Loi had 115 wins and 3 defeats..

Where is he from? I'm sure he was in the lower classes. Not many mws can do what Monzon did really. The strength level is higher there.

Where is he from? I'm sure he was in the lower classes. Not many mws can do what Monzon did really. The strength level is higher there.

He was from Italy and fought in the light welterweight division. He beat Carlos Ortiz and Eddie Perkins.

But you're right. Monzon beat a lot more great fighters than Loi.

Where is he from? I'm sure he was in the lower classes. Not many mws can do what Monzon did really. The strength level is higher there.
I wouldn't argue with that, but Loi was the answer to your question..
Monzon was truly great, but not P4P greatness, as like Loi, he was only dominant in one division.. Just my opinion..

Jimmy Barry. 58-0, enough said.