Who do you have in this great matchup between one of the greatest and one of the most underated fighters ever.

I'm not a true believer in McCallum as many others are, and I've never been a fan of Leonard. I think Leonard, the truest boxer-puncher I've ever seen, picks his spots, possibly scores a knockdown, wins a clear but competative UD. McCallum was a great inside fighter, but didn't have the wormy, mauling style to disrupt Leonard's great inside skills (why Hagler didn't do the job on the inside either), and Leonard's handspeed would make the difference.

ray had troubles outboxing noticably taller men with great jabs. he couldnt outbox hearns to save his life and its well known mccallum usually got the better of his sparring sessions with the hitman at the kronk. also mccallum could take much more punishment and was more complete. mccalum could certainly hang with ray as far as ring IQ, jabbing, angles and counterpunching goes. boxing basicly. and with his size and excellent bodypunching he would be a bit too much imo, maybe be able to break leonard down a bit and perhaps even stop him in the later rounds.

ray had troubles outboxing noticably taller men with great jabs. he couldnt outbox hearns to save his life and its well known mccallum usually got the better of his sparring sessions with the hitman at the kronk. also mccallum could take much more punishment and was more complete. mccalum could certainly hang with ray as far as ring IQ, jabbing, angles and counterpunching goes. boxing basicly. and with his size and excellent bodypunching he would be a bit too much imo, maybe be able to break leonard down a bit and perhaps even stop him in the later rounds.

True Ray had issues with Hearns. That was it. Hearns is not McCallum. Just because they have sparring sessions that mcCallum did well in means nothing about Ray. The issue with hearns that Leoanrds camp stated Befroe the 1st fight, is not so much hearns outboxing him, which is totally plausible as hearns was 6'2 78 inch reac and quick hands great jab. It is that with HEARNS you can not be caught on the end of his right hand, you do not have the problem with McCallum. Thus everything changes. With hearns, leonard did had to move out of reach, thus keeping him out of hearns right hand, but also since he had shorter reach, he was out side of his reach too. You notice that in the 1st fight, when ray chose to engage, he got the best of hearns, rounds 3, 6.7.8,13, 14. Rounds in which he was on the outside either trying to stalk or chase hearns (later rounds) or simply avoiding get hit with a big right (early rounds) and as they plan was to zap some of his legs. Ray's plan worked, What many many people do not know, is that in the sports illustrated labled the show down. Dundee almost to the round spelled out exactly how the fight would go. Go research for yourselves, I have the edition. 9/10/81 version of sports illustrated labled the showdown.... they verdict was leoanrd to win by 14th round stoppage. Seriously go get it. They said most people think Ray would outbox hearns, but most did not know hearns was a master boxer with out ko power in the amateurs, so he was perfectly capable of boxing.

McCallum while he is a very good boxer, very intelligent, great body puncher, simply would get embarrased. Prime Ray, boxing wise was a beast. He was a supreme boxer puncher. McCallum could not hurt Ray, and you know what happened when Ray does not feel you can hurt him...mayweather sr, kalule, Geraldo,,,These are all fighters that simply could not hurt him, and they were either good fighters, with speed or bigger. Ray simply overwhelmed them, and stopped 2 of them, and the 3rd clealry won the decsion. ]

Ray's speed jaw, style, etc would have been to much for him..

I think Leonard would of won but i could not disagree more that he would get embarrassed, no one ever! embarrassed McCallum, not close to his prime anyway, although i think Ray would win it would be a competitive fight with Leonard probably winning a clear decision.

Leonard would probably outquick McCallum imo, however it would still be close and competitive, what McCallum did not have in speed he made up for with a good jab and terrific timing, Leonard was also known to want to bang it out at times so i think the fight would be closer than anticipated.

McCallum is so smart & his timing is so good that even when he is being outquicked a little(Curry) he is smart enough to work the opponent, he feinted to Curry's body, Curry brought the feint and he was on his back next thing he knew, it was a perfect set up shot.

Leonard wins but not easy, McCallum's fights with Toney were as close as it gets, that was a prime Toney who was pretty quick himself at 160, which gets overlooked imo.

I think Leonard would of won but i could not disagree more that he would get embarrassed, no one ever! embarrassed McCallum, not close to his prime anyway, although i think Ray would win it would be a competitive fight with Leonard probably winning a clear decision.

Leonard would probably outquick McCallum imo, however it would still be close and competitive, what McCallum did not have in speed he made up for with a good jab and terrific timing, Leonard was also known to want to bang it out at times so i think the fight would be closer than anticipated.

McCallum is so smart & his timing is so good that even when he is being outquicked a little(Curry) he is smart enough to work the opponent, he feinted to Curry's body, Curry brought the feint and he was on his back next thing he knew, it was a perfect set up shot.

Leonard wins but not easy, McCallum's fights with Toney were as close as it gets, that was a prime Toney who was pretty quick himself at 160, which gets overlooked imo.

i go along with your assessment here Kid... and what a great fight this would have been, IMO McCallum never really reached his full potential until later in his career and he had problems with many of his opponents, Graham, Kalambay, Toney and i think Leonard is a touch better all round.. but what a great fight it would have been, we can only summize how it would have unfolded

just add a little tit-bit here - McCallum said Roy Jones was the best he had ever been in with when interviewed after their fight.

Who do you have in this great matchup between one of the greatest and one of the most underated fighters ever.
In any other era this fight would have been compulsory..
But I think it's now common knowledge that as McCallum was a consumate professional, and always in top shape, chicken Ray would have insisted on special circumstances in order to fight him.. I can only suggest, McCallum didn't like the idea of giving his belts away, so Leonard went chasing after Lalonde instead..

154 would have been McCallums fight, and no one knew that better than Ray..

Malone,shut the f*ck up,you silly cunt.You were fed some story from a retarded Duran apologist and now you think you know everything.Go and watch a Sonny Liston fight that doesn't feature Muhammad Ali before you ever make another post.I assumed that I had already run out all the old,bitter boxing bully boy posters,who like to lure morons like you into their way of thinking,but apparently I was wrong,tie me kangaroo down sport is still around it and has exposed himself as one of these lonely old men.

Malone,shut the f*ck up,you silly cunt.You were fed some story from a retarded Duran apologist and now you think you know everything.Go and watch a Sonny Liston fight that doesn't feature Muhammad Ali before you ever make another post.I assumed that I had already run out all the old,bitter boxing bully boy posters,who like to lure morons like you into their way of thinking,but apparently I was wrong,tie me kangaroo down sport is still around it and has exposed himself as one of these lonely old men.
And why would I take the advice of an intellectualy challenged pants pisser, like yourself?

ray had troubles outboxing noticably taller men with great jabs. he couldnt outbox hearns to save his life and its well known mccallum usually got the better of his sparring sessions with the hitman at the kronk. also mccallum could take much more punishment and was more complete. mccalum could certainly hang with ray as far as ring IQ, jabbing, angles and counterpunching goes. boxing basicly. and with his size and excellent bodypunching he would be a bit too much imo, maybe be able to break leonard down a bit and perhaps even stop him in the later rounds.


Kalambay outboxed a prime mccallum first time round, a past prime donald curry was outboxing him until geting caught, herol graham went to the wire with mccallum a fight that could of gone either way, james toney outboxed a just past his best mccallum, so a prime learnad beats mike he has to many tools for mccallum and is the over all better fighter. Also i have always heard that the sparring between mike and tommy was more or less 50/50, manny steward said some of the best sparring he has ever seen. A prime ray Learnard was a different type of animal

True Ray had issues with Hearns. That was it. Hearns is not McCallum. Just because they have sparring sessions that mcCallum did well in means nothing about Ray. The issue with hearns that Leoanrds camp stated Befroe the 1st fight, is not so much hearns outboxing him, which is totally plausible as hearns was 6'2 78 inch reac and quick hands great jab. It is that with HEARNS you can not be caught on the end of his right hand, you do not have the problem with McCallum. Thus everything changes. With hearns, leonard did had to move out of reach, thus keeping him out of hearns right hand, but also since he had shorter reach, he was out side of his reach too. You notice that in the 1st fight, when ray chose to engage, he got the best of hearns, rounds 3, 6.7.8,13, 14. Rounds in which he was on the outside either trying to stalk or chase hearns (later rounds) or simply avoiding get hit with a big right (early rounds) and as they plan was to zap some of his legs. Ray's plan worked, What many many people do not know, is that in the sports illustrated labled the show down. Dundee almost to the round spelled out exactly how the fight would go. Go research for yourselves, I have the edition. 9/10/81 version of sports illustrated labled the showdown.... they verdict was leoanrd to win by 14th round stoppage. Seriously go get it. They said most people think Ray would outbox hearns, but most did not know hearns was a master boxer with out ko power in the amateurs, so he was perfectly capable of boxing.

McCallum while he is a very good boxer, very intelligent, great body puncher, simply would get embarrased. Prime Ray, boxing wise was a beast. He was a supreme boxer puncher. McCallum could not hurt Ray, and you know what happened when Ray does not feel you can hurt him...mayweather sr, kalule, Geraldo,,,These are all fighters that simply could not hurt him, and they were either good fighters, with speed or bigger. Ray simply overwhelmed them, and stopped 2 of them, and the 3rd clealry won the decsion. ]

Ray's speed jaw, style, etc would have been to much for him..

thing is mccallum doesnt get tired, and although he wouldnt hurt ray with one punch he certainly would put some sort of dent in him everytime he touched him. mccallum wasnt a explosive puncher like hearns but he was heavyhanded. and a noticably bigger man than ray. comparing him to kalule, floyd sr and geraldo is just ignorant. kalule was a pretty good fighter but not on mccallums level. nobody in the history of boxing embarasses prime mccallum eighter.

I think Leonard's boxing skills and speed would've won him this fight and he had the chin to take McCallum's best shots, I think he'd do what Curry did to McCallum for 4 rounds except he would do it for the whole distance, McCallum would definitely have his moments though.

Kalambay outboxed a prime mccallum first time round, a past prime donald curry was outboxing him until geting caught, herol graham went to the wire with mccallum a fight that could of gone either way, james toney outboxed a just past his best mccallum, so a prime learnad beats mike he has to many tools for mccallum and is the over all better fighter. Also i have always heard that the sparring between mike and tommy was more or less 50/50, manny steward said some of the best sparring he has ever seen. A prime ray Learnard was a different type of animal


Kalambay is slicker than Ray Leonard though.

Ray was outboxed by Hearns, when all said and done both of them won those fights.

Toney did not beat McCallum either time as far as im concerned, infact if! Toney had not had a big finish in the first he surely would of lost, he was lucky to get a draw imo.

The second fight with Toney was more in McCallum's favour than the first fight was.

thing is mccallum doesnt get tired, and although he wouldnt hurt ray with one punch he certainly would put some sort of dent in him everytime he touched him. mccallum wasnt a explosive puncher like hearns but he was heavyhanded. and a noticably bigger man than ray. comparing him to kalule, floyd sr and geraldo is just ignorant. kalule was a pretty good fighter but not on mccallums level. nobody in the history of boxing embarasses prime mccallum eighter.

Irony is, McCallum beat Kalule worse than Ray did, he also beat Minchillo worse than Duran & Hearns.

I go with Ray by UD

I doubt SRL could take Mike's punches much better than the rest of his victims, especially bodypunches. I know he would be quite elusive, but not elusive enough for THE BODYSNATCHER!:boxing:

I doubt SRL could take Mike's punches much better than the rest of his victims, especially bodypunches. I know he would be quite elusive, but not elusive enough for THE BODYSNATCHER!:boxing:

I doubt you've ever seen either fight.Stop using smilies in every one of your posts aswell,it makes you look like a clueless ****.....oh wait.

thing is mccallum doesnt get tired, and although he wouldnt hurt ray with one punch he certainly would put some sort of dent in him everytime he touched him. mccallum wasnt a explosive puncher like hearns but he was heavyhanded. and a noticably bigger man than ray. comparing him to kalule, floyd sr and geraldo is just ignorant. kalule was a pretty good fighter but not on mccallums level. nobody in the history of boxing embarasses prime mccallum eighter.

Mike was good, but lets get one thing straight was not good enough to beat ray learnard one of the greatest fighters that ever lived! for me mccallum would not of beat duran or hagler, him and tommy i cant pick. Your really over rateing mccallum, yes he was great but not in rays league, you would not see a prime learnard geting beat by kalambay or going to the wire with graham, in a fight alot people thought graham won. A semi retired ray beat hagler, a just past his best mccallum could not beat toney. there on different levels

Mike was good, but lets get one thing straight was not good enough to beat ray learnard one of the greatest fighters that ever lived! for me mccallum would not of beat duran or hagler, him and tommy i cant pick. Your really over rateing mccallum, yes he was great but not in rays league, you would not see a prime learnard geting beat by kalambay or going to the wire with graham, in a fight alot people thought graham won. A semi retired ray beat hagler, a just past his best mccallum could not beat toney. there on different levels

We can never know, can we? None of those guys would fight McCallum. So you can ask yourself why they didn't? Its because he WAS phenomenal.

Mike was good, but lets get one thing straight was not good enough to beat ray learnard one of the greatest fighters that ever lived! for me mccallum would not of beat duran or hagler, him and tommy i cant pick. Your really over rateing mccallum, yes he was great but not in rays league, you would not see a prime learnard geting beat by kalambay or going to the wire with graham, in a fight alot people thought graham won. A semi retired ray beat hagler, a just past his best mccallum could not beat toney. there on different levels


McCallum would of beaten Duran comfortably, bigger, stronger, better chin, reach advantage, harder hitter and just as good inside. Duran was not a very good LMW, he lost to Laing, Benitez and looked average against Michillo, Nino Gonzalez and he also got KTFO by Hearns. McCallum stopped Minchillo something neither Hearns or Duran could do, he also stopped Kalule quicker than Leonard.

Kalambay was a very!! good fighter, infact more underrated than McCallum himself, he knocked out the durable Doug De Witt, something Hearns could not do, infact he gave Hearns a tough fight, Kalambay dispatched him with ease! Kalambay also schooled Iran Barkley, he beat McCallum & had a very close rematch with him that could of gone either way, he beat Robbie Sims who beat Duran, he beat Herol Graham twice, he beat Steve Collins who beat Eubank & Benn.

Im not saying McCallum would beat Leonard because i dont think he would, but you are seriously underrating him, there is overrating someone, which im dead set against, then there is not giving someone their props, that is what you are doing.

McCallum vs Hearns would of been interesting, but i still see Hearns getting KTFO, however i can understand why someone would think Hearns could beat him, but not Duran, not at 154 anyway.


Toney did not beat McCallum imo.

McCallum would of beaten Duran comfortably, bigger, stronger, better chin, reach advantage, harder hitter and just as good inside. Duran was not a very good LMW, he lost to Laing, Benitez and looked average against Michillo, Nino Gonzalez and he also got KTFO by Hearns. McCallum stopped Minchillo something neither Hearns or Duran could do, he also stopped Kalule quicker than Leonard.

Kalambay was a very!! good fighter, infact more underrated than McCallum himself, he knocked out the durable Doug De Witt, something Hearns could not do, infact he gave Hearns a tough fight, Kalambay dispatched him with ease! Kalambay also schooled Iran Barkley, he beat McCallum & had a very close rematch with him that could of gone either way, he beat Robbie Sims who beat Duran, he beat Herol Graham twice, he beat Steve Collins who beat Eubank & Benn.

Im not saying McCallum would beat Leonard because i dont think he would, but you are seriously underrating him, there is overrating someone, which im dead set against, then there is not giving someone their props, that is what you are doing.

McCallum vs Hearns would of been interesting, but i still see Hearns getting KTFO, however i can understand why someone would think Hearns could beat him, but not Duran, not at 154 anyway.


Toney did not beat McCallum imo.
That's a bloody good post, and I agree on eveything apart from Leonard being able to beat him.. I very much doubt that, and it's always amazed me that none of the fab 4 ever fought him..

Why is it amazing Malone? Leonard was retired and Hagler was a middleweight.McCallum was Duran's mandatory but Duran took the fight with Hearns instead,John Mugabi was mandatory challenger to Thomas Hearns JMW title but McCallum(former Kronk fighter) never was.

Why is it amazing Malone? Leonard was retired and Hagler was a middleweight.McCallum was Duran's mandatory but Duran took the fight with Hearns instead,John Mugabi was mandatory challenger to Thomas Hearns JMW title but McCallum(former Kronk fighter) never was.
Well Popper, If you can make Leonard Lalonde, you can make anything & when you consider that McCallum fought from LMW to LHW it does leave me somewhat dumbfounded to say the very least..

Good close fight, but I think Ray would have found a way to win. He always did and it wouldn't be different this time in my opinion. Still, McCallum was, and is, underrated and would have put up a great fight but I think Ray would have been just a little too quick and a little too smart. Would have been a great fight though either way.

KD: Did you really think Toney only just deserved a draw in their first fight? I always thought Toney won that fight quite comfortably. It always confused me that people think McCallum could have won it or that Toney was lucky in getting the draw. :thinking:

Good close fight, but I think Ray would have found a way to win. He always did and it wouldn't be different this time in my opinion. Still, McCallum was, and is, underrated and would have put up a great fight but I think Ray would have been just a little too quick and a little too smart. Would have been a great fight though either way.

KD: Did you really think Toney only just deserved a draw in their first fight? I always thought Toney won that fight quite comfortably. It always confused me that people think McCallum could have won it or that Toney was lucky in getting the draw. :thinking:


TBH BennyST its been so long since i saw it that i would have to watch it again, that said the last time i watched it i did think McCallum was winning the fight until McCallum came on strong at the end.

I watched the Skysports broadcast though, so maybe i got a different perception with what the commentators were saying, i would have to watch it again and score it next time.

They were both low contact fights that were extremely hard to call.

thing is mccallum doesnt get tired, and although he wouldnt hurt ray with one punch he certainly would put some sort of dent in him everytime he touched him. mccallum wasnt a explosive puncher like hearns but he was heavyhanded. and a noticably bigger man than ray. comparing him to kalule, floyd sr and geraldo is just ignorant. kalule was a pretty good fighter but not on mccallums level. nobody in the history of boxing embarasses prime mccallum eighter.

It is about styles,,my friend.. i am not saying McCallum was the level of fighter, I am saying when people get on here and say that hearns out boxed leoanrd, thus a bigger man can outbox leoanrd...They seem to not understand the strategy leoanrd employed vs hearns. Leoanrd could have danced vs hearns. Jab for jab,, try to mix it up, and take advantage of opportunities and elected to box as if to win each and every round, which he did vs 99% of his foes, but that put him in harms way of catching the most lethal Right hand ever at Welter, and remember Tommy at welter was 32-0 30 ko's and just literely destroyed Cuevas's cranium.... So leonard as far as boxing went elected to move outside of hearns right hand the 1st couple of rounds thus giving away rounds, they knew they would give away, and then make it a fight. Many still do not realize the fight (with the exception of hearn showing great boxing skills from 9th til 12th, and leonards eye) went exactly as planned exactly as they predicted it would a week before in the sports illustrated. Dundee went on record saying it would be ignorant for Ray to try to box this man with a killer right, and 78 inch reach...he would chop him dwn like tree he said, and all the while zapping his strenght by moving and making hearns expend energy chasing him.. it did not happen quit like that, as leoanrd expended the energy,,, but the damage done in the 6th and 7thh rounds was severe enought that hearns had respect for Ray even when Ray was frusterated by his closign eye and not being able to reach a fleet footed 6'1 fgither with reach...

McCallum was a great great great fighter that simly had the style that Ray leonard would eat up. You never ever saw a straight up fighter outbox peak ray. Ray had issues with a top 10 pound per pound all time fighter duran who was a tremendous pressure , fast, and very good defenive fighter, in which Ray fought the wrong style. Vs a McCallum ray could use all types of angles, speed, etc.. Would he have to ensure tht his jaw, body, speed, instincts where razor sharp..yes. But we forget just how devestating peak ray was. Many only refer back to his fights whith a fighter that he gave away physicans advantages too, and had to slug with(heanrs,) and he did it and won..beating the best slugger at welter ever....he frusterated a top 10 all time pound per pounder into quitting,,and he was much faster and better defensivly than Mccallum was, he out counter puched on of the best counter punchers ever...Benetiz....he then after 5 years, moved up and while he was actually only maybe 60%, no stamina after 6 rounds, reflexes not what they was,,,was able to take haglers best shots, used movement to beat him...Just imagine a 1982 version of Ray in vs hagler, or McCallum.

No sorry.... where McCallum strenghts are they simply would not be enough to beat peak ray at jr middle. Ray had a all time great jaw,,,never dropped before retiring..Had stamine, legs, ring smarts as did McCallum, angles, would easily rip counters and hooks off of Mccallums jabs etc.. McCallum would try to wear Ray down with body, shots, try to cut off the ring...Ray would box like he did Duran 2...countering effectivly, moving, landing at will, I would have it probably 9 round 3 Ray... As he simply would be too fast for McCallum..Curry was outboxing McCallum for the 1st 4 rounds,,then got worn down and rocked. We have nothing on record to show Ray Leonard getting worn down by anyone, when he was prime....Curry is not the boxer or have the speed of Ray...

That being said...87 verson of Ray gets beaten probably stopped...he had nothing after he came out of retirement, which makes it even more amazing he was able to beat active champions lalond and hagler,,,moving up to do so. Can you imagine a retired for 5 years mayweather moving up to fight winy wright, or pac moving up to fight 32 year old dlh after pac had been retired for 5 years... come on....

Sure Ray ducked Nunn, McCalllum all the younger beasts at 160...Jackson..Brown... He simply was not the same..hell he got damm near stopped by Taylor in training for Hagler fight. I make no arguemet for the post retirment ray.. two different fighters. But peak ray, beats McCallum Jackson (if he does not get slaughtered with a unseen shot,,damm jackon could punch), Brown, norris (he stops norris in 4 or 5 when he was peak), Nunn becasue of his size, and reach would pose issues for Ray.. Jones would destroy Ray at 160. Literally destroy him.