These 2 men must be the most intimidating HWs of all Time, Although Foreman Was also intimidating i dont beleave Anyone was More Feared Then Tyson and Liston.

if these two had fought, Prime for Prime, who do you see winning? Do you see intimidation playing a big part? Lets hear your View.
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What's this, another anti Tyson vid and thread in which you're going to discredit him? Just making sure lad.

What's this, another anti Tyson vid and thread in which you're going to discredit him? Just making sure lad.


LMAO! First off, thanks for the Bump,
Second, How is this Anti Tyson? its a subject for Everyone to discuss, i cant see any Anti Tyson remarks in my post.

LMAO! First off, thanks for the Bump,
Second, How is this Anti Tyson? its a subject for Everyone to discuss, i cant see any Anti Tyson remarks in my post.

You broke your promise mate. You wouldn't talk to me no more but i'm a charming lad so I don't blame you.
You hardly ever make Tyson look good and most of his matchups vids you have him losing. What are you trying to prove, wanker?

You broke your promise mate. You wouldn't talk to me no more but i'm a charming lad so I don't blame you.
You hardly ever make Tyson look good and most of his matchups vids you have him losing. What are you trying to prove, wanker?


LoL I show Tyson Lossing? lmao , Mate most of the video is Both men Training Stop being a baby.:bottle:

As for not talking to you...yes i did break my promise, but to be honest you dont really Bother me any more, I feel sorry for you, Your lack of any sense and the fact no one likes you , really upsets me, Because i know that its not your fault you are stupid, you have just been possessed by a retarded ghost.

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]LoL I show Tyson Lossing?

If you mean losing, then yes. You have proven yourself to be a gigantic hater of the man so why is there an endless need of crappy editing vids of him?

As for not talking to you...yes i did break my promise, but to be honest you dont really Bother me any more, I feel sorry for you, Your lack of and sense and the fact no one likes you , really upsets me, Because i know that its not your fault your are stupid, you have just been possessed by a retarded ghost

A retarded ghost. Good one, took you a long time to make that one up innit?

And thanks for your concern. The feeling is mutual, as you might thank me later for getting your precious vids taken down for copyright infringements. I wouldn't mind ending the only thing you have in life, mate.

After watching Liston get Khan'd in ali 2 i reckon Tyson could do simmilar

If you mean losing, then yes. You have proven yourself to be a gigantic hater of the man so why is there an endless need of crappy editing vids of him?



A retarded ghost. Good one, took you a long time to make that one up innit?

And thanks for your concern. The feeling is mutual, as you might thank me later for getting your precious vids taken down for copyright infringements. I wouldn't mind ending the only thing you have in life, mate.


Good for you

the ref. both of these might quit. tyson by a shade' he was qiucker. liston could be awfully slow but had a very hard hook. both had decent chins, both were not tough guys, mentally tough. you woulndt see either getting valor medals

the ref. both of these might quit. tyson by a shade' he was qiucker. liston could be awfully slow but had a very hard hook. both had decent chins, both were not tough guys, mentally tough. you woulndt see either getting valor medals

You're the typical Joe Louis fanboy,discreding any other great heavyweight who could take a flush shot because you are insecure of Louis's suspect chin and suspect resume.

A shot Tyson recieved an absolute pasting from Lennox Lewis for six and a half rounds and never quit,Sonny Liston recieved a broken jaw and fought on to finish the fight.What's your history of being brave,tough guy? Did you scratch your knee when you were a child and cry? Yeah,you probably did.

Unfortunately,I will be the only one willing to call you out on your blatant trolling here,others will ignore it as they don't see anything wrong with discredting the Sonny Liston's and Mike Tyson's of this world.

You're the typical Joe Louis fanboy,discreding any other great heavyweight who could take a flush shot because you are insecure of Louis's suspect chin and suspect resume.

A shot Tyson recieved an absolute pasting from Lennox Lewis for six and a half rounds and never quit,Sonny Liston recieved a broken jaw and fought on to finish the fight.What's your history of being brave,tough guy? Did you scratch your knee when you were a child and cry? Yeah,you probably did.

Unfortunately,I will be the only one willing to call you out on your blatant trolling here,others will ignore it as they don't see anything wrong with discredting the Sonny Liston's and Mike Tyson's of this world.


I agree with that, I couldnt beleave the punishment Mike took against Lewis, also Sonny when he had his jaw broken, He took some HUGE shots before dropping, Two Good chins no doubt, Sonny is discredited mostly because of the Ali fight.

I'd favor Sonny in this matchup. He'd use his excellent jab to keep Tyson at bay and in close, he could do quite a number on Tyson as well. Tyson could have his moments but I think Sonny stops him sometime after the 5th round.

I think Liston stops him, and I don't think it's a close fight. Tyson would have to walk through Liston's jab, the most underrated in heavyweight history in my opinion, and even if he did, which he wouldn't, Tyson would have to contend with solid in-fighting and most importantly, no fear. Not to say that Tyson and Patterson are carbon copies by any means, but they are more similar than most give credit for, and look at how easily Liston dismissed the D'Amato trained "elusive agression". Some other points of interest:
Liston's reach, 84" (the same as Lennox "Too Big" Lewis, by the way), and monsterous
15" fists (bigger than Primo Carnera, and a whole 3 inches bigger than LL). Liston was probably about 40 years old or older when he fought Cassius Clay (no one, including him, knows how old he really is, read The Devil And Sonny Liston by Nick Tosches for more details), so placing that version of Liston as an example of "prime" is to be ignored. I'm really, really not underrating Tyson here, but in my opinion Liston on his best night beats every heavyweight, ever. Except Ali.

I'd favor Sonny in this matchup. He'd use his excellent jab to keep Tyson at bay and in close, he could do quite a number on Tyson as well. Tyson could have his moments but I think Sonny stops him sometime after the 5th round.

Tyson still is able to avoid a good jab...even from taller fighters with a long reach. He is able to do so because he is fast, bobs/weaves, and can move and position himself in quick fashion...and then he unloads. Tyson isn't a straight-forward type fighter where he just sits there and plods along...not at his best. Liston would have to do a lot more than just jab. And people seem to forget how fast, hard, and accurate Tyson's own jab was. He could double up and even triple up on the Jab. The smaller in height the opponent the easier and more likely he can use his jab. Sonny isn't that much taller than Tyson so he would be using his own jab against Liston.

I think speed wins so Tyson would be my pick.
If Liston is to win this, he would have to be able to get it into the late rounds and be able to absorb the punishment from Tyson.

I think Liston stops him, and I don't think it's a close fight. Tyson would have to walk through Liston's jab, the most underrated in heavyweight history in my opinion, and even if he did, which he wouldn't, Tyson would have to contend with solid in-fighting and most importantly, no fear. Not to say that Tyson and Patterson are carbon copies by any means, but they are more similar than most give credit for, and look at how easily Liston dismissed the D'Amato trained "elusive agression". Some other points of interest:
Liston's reach, 84" (the same as Lennox "Too Big" Lewis, by the way), and monsterous
15" fists (bigger than Primo Carnera, and a whole 3 inches bigger than LL). Liston was probably about 40 years old or older when he fought Cassius Clay (no one, including him, knows how old he really is, read The Devil And Sonny Liston by Nick Tosches for more details), so placing that version of Liston as an example of "prime" is to be ignored. I'm really, really not underrating Tyson here, but in my opinion Liston on his best night beats every heavyweight, ever. Except Ali.

:pat: Did you even see the Patterson vs. Liston fight and know the story behind it?
Patterson was scared ****less and fought like it. D'Amato didn't want Patterson to fight Liston because he knew what was going to happen.
For Tyson and D'Amato: Cus actually told Tyson that he was basically the only fighter he ever had that he wouldn't have to protect; he could fight anybody.

Patterson was a Middle-weight in the Olympics and increased his weight to become a HW (in that era of smaller HWs). Sure, great for under 200 pounders like Archie Moore who he blew out or even someone like Ingemar Johansson who was around 200 pounds (although he still had lots of trouble with him), but not someone like Liston. Not someone as big, strong, tough, and even skilled as Liston.
Floyd's chin wasn't going to hold up to a 200+ big power puncher with skill and a solid chin like Liston.

Tyson is a 215+ pound fighter who trained to keep his weight down...much different than Patterson who trained/ate his way up and was still under 200 pounds.

Patterson isn't taking this type of shot from Ruddock who was even bigger and faster than Liston...but Tyson could.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/46754/tyson-s.gif (http://www.gifsoup.com/view/46754/tyson.html)
Create Animated GIFs With GIFSoup.com (http://www.gifsoup.com)

Patterson wasn't going to land this type of punch on Liston because he was too afraid of him.

But what a puncher Floyd was.
http://www.gifsoup.com/view/43663/knock-out-s.gif (http://www.gifsoup.com/view/43663/knock-out.html)
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[QUOTE=Benny Leonard;6478642]:pat: Did you even see the Patterson vs. Liston fight and know the story behind it?
Patterson was scared ****less and fought like it. D'Amato didn't want Patterson to fight Liston because he knew what was going to happen.
For Tyson and D'Amato: Cus actually told Tyson that he was basically the only fighter he ever had that he wouldn't have to protect; he could fight anybody.

Patterson was a Middle-weight in the Olympics and increased his weight to become a HW (in that era of smaller HWs). Sure, great for under 200 pounders like Archie Moore who he blew out or even someone like Ingemar Johansson who was around 200 pounds (although he still had lots of trouble with him), but not someone like Liston. Not someone as big, strong, tough, and even skilled as Liston.
Floyd's chin wasn't going to hold up to a 200+ big power puncher with skill and a solid chin like Liston.

Tyson is a 215+ pound fighter who trained to keep his weight down...much different than Patterson who trained/ate his way up and was still under 200 pounds.

Patterson isn't taking this type of shot from Ruddock who was even bigger and faster than Liston...but Tyson could.

QUOTE]

I have seen their fights many times, or else I wouldn't mention them. I pointed out that Tyson and Patterson are stylistically similar, but different fighters. That body shot that Patterson hit Johannson with a second before the KO is a vintage Tyson-style punch, delay, punch KO. For better or for worse, I was pointing out that Liston dispatched a stylistically similar fighter without being troubled by a bobbing and weaving "elusive aggressive" style at all. Not at all the main reason why I think Liston beats him, and I said so. I decided to leave out the fact that I think Patterson had better handspeed than Tyson, too.
I don't get where you're going with Razor Ruddock, however. First of all, not at all convinced Patterson doesn't KO Ruddock, and 2nd, are you implying that because Tyson could take Ruddock's punches that he could take Liston's? Tyson, who was buckled by Tony Tucker and Frank Bruno? Hurt and knocked out by medium punchers Holyfield and Douglas?

QUOTE=blacklodge;6478761

I have seen their fights many times, or else I wouldn't mention them. I pointed out that Tyson and Patterson are stylistically similar, but different fighters. That body shot that Patterson hit Johannson with a second before the KO is a vintage Tyson-style punch, delay, punch KO. For better or for worse, I was pointing out that Liston dispatched a stylistically similar fighter without being troubled by a bobbing and weaving "elusive aggressive" style at all. Not at all the main reason why I think Liston beats him, and I said so. I decided to leave out the fact that I think Patterson had better handspeed than Tyson, too.
I don't get where you're going with Razor Ruddock, however. First of all, not at all convinced Patterson doesn't KO Ruddock, and 2nd, are you implying that because Tyson could take Ruddock's punches that he could take Liston's? Tyson, who was buckled by Tony Tucker and Frank Bruno? Hurt and knocked out by medium punchers Holyfield and Douglas?

Patterson fought scared and didn't do anything which is why Liston had no trouble. Ability, Speed, etc....took no part in that fight. Patterson was frozen stiff.

Ruddock had power, size, strength, height, etc. One shot from him and Patterson goes down. Patterson would not take his shots.

Ah, Tucker was a Big Man and had a solid punch and Bruno as well. Only Bruno hurt him out of the two and both were punches that were thrown as Tyson was throwing which is a great time to hurt someone...and in both cases Tyson struck back and won...didn't go down. Patterson would have dropped to the floor.

Douglas: McCall said Douglas could hit. In fact, Douglas hit him harder than Lennox Lewis. And, if you hadnt' seen the fight (which I doubt), how many times did Douglas hit him again before he went down?
What round?
And what shape was Tyson in?

Holyfield: Again, an unfit Tyson who even Evander said knew he had the advantage because Tyson hadn't been hit since he got out of jail (which was 3 years rotting away). And how many rounds and how many hits did it take Tyson to get knocked out on his feet from a swollen version of Holyfield?


"If he could go fight Lewis and not train, he'd do it. He'd just show up and take his best shot on sheer ability. Mike only trained for two weeks, and he made it 11 rounds with Holyfield."
Tommy Brooks

http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarowski_adrian/1317765.html

To be a fighter you should be well trained...you should be prepared both mentally and physically to fight. Every corner you cut in camp is one strike against you going into a fight.

If Tyson had Patterson's chin he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did. After Spinks, Tyson stood taller and moved his head less and less. The Big Guys would have taken him out early if not for his chin. His training habits were already suspect after he left Rooney which means his stamina was going to be even more suspect...and when your stamina isn't good, and when you are tired, you are more likely to get knocked out.


Cooper and Banks knocked Ali down.
Moore and Walcott knocked Marciano down.
Foreman was knocked out by Ali.
Lewis was knocked out by Rahman and McCall.
Liston was knocked out by Ali.

And the list goes on and on.


Tyson's Chin:


"Now, were they (Tyson's media critics) at the same fight I was? I mean, what do they want from this guy? Here's Ruddock, who everyone agreed had the greatest single shot in boxing, his left hook, and he tags Mike several times right on the button with it, and Mike doesn't go down.

"I used to think Larry (Holmes) had the greatest chin I ever saw. After Friday, I changed my mind. No one, ever, had a better chin than Mike's." Richie Giachetti

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-06/sports/sp-1610_1_tyson-fights

And there is enough commentating from Ferdie Pacheco in that second fight to tell you all you need to know about Tyson's ability to take a punch.

Point is, Tyson fought big punchers as well as Big men in general...so he proved his worth more than Patterson to stand and take the risk to fight back. Now add in Tyson's head-movement, he gets hit less.

Liston wasn't the fastest of punchers either.

Lot's of arguing in this thread, none of it about the fight.

Liston had a great, strong jab, and that would help him keep Tyson away. I think he wins a decision in really good fight.

Lot's of arguing in this thread, none of it about the fight.

Liston had a great, strong jab, and that would help him keep Tyson away. I think he wins a decision in really good fight.

Debating; not arguing.

I'm talking about the Jab.

In my opinion, even with Listons jab, it is still slow enough for Tyson to counter...counter behind his own jab which was fast, accurate, hard, can be thrown in 2's and 3's...and Tyson was good at timing.

Tyson = Bang! bang! bang! bang! bang!

Liston = Bang! scuff skim swing splosh

This is easy.. Tyson by brutal early KO!

Debating; not arguing.

I'm talking about the Jab.

In my opinion, even with Listons jab, it is still slow enough for Tyson to counter...counter behind his own jab which was fast, accurate, hard, can be thrown in 2's and 3's...and Tyson was good at timing.
Dunno Benny,

Thinking back when Tyson was at his peak I always thought about the sort of fighter who would beat him and had in my mind a fighter with decent reach, who knows how to use that reach, good jab, can control the centre of the ring, needs to take a good shot.
Liston ticks a lot of boxes?

Dunno Benny,

Thinking back when Tyson was at his peak I always thought about the sort of fighter who would beat him and had in my mind a fighter with decent reach, who knows how to use that reach, good jab, can control the centre of the ring, needs to take a good shot.
Liston ticks a lot of boxes?

Honestly, I've always seen this as a bad, bad stylistic matchup for Tyson. It's pretty much a carbon-copy of a prime-Foreman Vs. Tyson matchup which I've always seen as pretty much a replay of Foreman Vs. Frazier I. Just a bad styles match that exaggerates the qualitative differences between the fighters.

Poet

Patterson fought scared and didn't do anything which is why Liston had no trouble. Ability, Speed, etc....took no part in that fight. Patterson was frozen stiff.

Ruddock had power, size, strength, height, etc. One shot from him and Patterson goes down. Patterson would not take his shots.

Ah, Tucker was a Big Man and had a solid punch and Bruno as well. Only Bruno hurt him out of the two and both were punches that were thrown as Tyson was throwing which is a great time to hurt someone...and in both cases Tyson struck back and won...didn't go down. Patterson would have dropped to the floor.

Douglas: McCall said Douglas could hit. In fact, Douglas hit him harder than Lennox Lewis. And, if you hadnt' seen the fight (which I doubt), how many times did Douglas hit him again before he went down?
What round?
And what shape was Tyson in?

Holyfield: Again, an unfit Tyson who even Evander said knew he had the advantage because Tyson hadn't been hit since he got out of jail (which was 3 years rotting away). And how many rounds and how many hits did it take Tyson to get knocked out on his feet from a swollen version of Holyfield?


"If he could go fight Lewis and not train, he'd do it. He'd just show up and take his best shot on sheer ability. Mike only trained for two weeks, and he made it 11 rounds with Holyfield."
Tommy Brooks

http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarowski_adrian/1317765.html

To be a fighter you should be well trained...you should be prepared both mentally and physically to fight. Every corner you cut in camp is one strike against you going into a fight.

If Tyson had Patterson's chin he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did. After Spinks, Tyson stood taller and moved his head less and less. The Big Guys would have taken him out early if not for his chin. His training habits were already suspect after he left Rooney which means his stamina was going to be even more suspect...and when your stamina isn't good, and when you are tired, you are more likely to get knocked out.


Cooper and Banks knocked Ali down.
Moore and Walcott knocked Marciano down.
Foreman was knocked out by Ali.
Lewis was knocked out by Rahman and McCall.
Liston was knocked out by Ali.

And the list goes on and on.


Tyson's Chin:


"Now, were they (Tyson's media critics) at the same fight I was? I mean, what do they want from this guy? Here's Ruddock, who everyone agreed had the greatest single shot in boxing, his left hook, and he tags Mike several times right on the button with it, and Mike doesn't go down.

"I used to think Larry (Holmes) had the greatest chin I ever saw. After Friday, I changed my mind. No one, ever, had a better chin than Mike's." Richie Giachetti

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-06/sports/sp-1610_1_tyson-fights

And there is enough commentating from Ferdie Pacheco in that second fight to tell you all you need to know about Tyson's ability to take a punch.

Point is, Tyson fought big punchers as well as Big men in general...so he proved his worth more than Patterson to stand and take the risk to fight back. Now add in Tyson's head-movement, he gets hit less.

Liston wasn't the fastest of punchers either.

Geez, where to start? Let me first say that we can debate this without condesending remarks about what fights I have or haven't seen. Let's keep it real, and let the takes speak for themselves. And come on, do I sound like the kind of cat who would show his mug on a boxing history board without seeing Tyson-Douglas? 14 year old blond girls from Australia have seen that fight.
Anyway, I don't see what Ruddock being able to KO Patterson has anything to do with Tyson-Liston. That's not even a stretch, it's a different topic. I never said Tyson was chinny, or that his ability to take a punch was comparable to Patterson at all. Tyson could take a punch, but you are vastly overrating his ability to take a punch. I don't think undertraining makes Marvin Hagler turn into Thomas Hearns. And are you saying that Marciano, Foreman and Ali weren't in shape for the fights you mentioned? The fact remains that Tony Tucker made a prime Tyson skip a bit late in their fight, Bruno wobbled him, Douglas hurt Tyson several times, having him out on his feet twice, as did Holyfield, and Liston hit harder than all of them by a considerable magin. Bruno aside, I stand by my take on Douglas and Holyfield (and certainly Tucker) having a medium punch, at best.
I expect Oliver McCall to say something like Douglas hit harder than Lewis, which is preposterous and he knows it, since Douglas beat him and he beat Lewis. Also, I don't expect realist information from Brooks and Giachetti (no one outside of his fat greasy head thought Ruddock had "the greatest single shot in boxing", that's crazy talk), two guys on Tyson's payroll at one time or another. And Ferdie Pacheco is an outright buffoon.
Tyson did NOT fight big punchers. He was always troubled by a good jab. Liston had a tremendous jab. Liston had the skills, size, mentality and power to take Tyson to pieces, and I think he would.

I wouldn't say Patterson fought scared, he fought stupid. I've seen pre-fight interviews with Patterson before the Liston fight and he seemed confident in his chances. He fought with an aggressive style as he did many times and it ended up being the wrong strategy. Had he stayed away and boxed, he may have gone a couple of more rounds but still not many more.

In the second fight he did freeze but that was after having already been knocked out in one round by Liston.

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Tyson had a good chin but he could be hurt and discouraged. Ruddock was way too one-dimensional by the time he fought Tyson, earlier on he had been more of a boxer. During the Tyson fights he could only throw a telegraphed left hand with which he thought he could knock anybody out. Didn't happen.

the ref. both of these might quit. tyson by a shade' he was qiucker. liston could be awfully slow but had a very hard hook. both had decent chins, both were not tough guys, mentally tough. you woulndt see either getting valor medals

Liston fought 8 rounds with a broken jaw early in his career against a seasoned and experienced pro.Liston lost a close decision,but he was hitting his opponent so hard in the 10th and final round that he stepped out of the ring!!

I believe Liston was more menacing and intimiting.Sonny also had one of the best chins in Heavyweight history(Everybody knows the 2nd Ali-Liston fight was fixed)

I believe Mike Tyson was made for Liston.His STYLE was made for Liston.

I see a quick end to a very brutal fight.Something like Liston's two fights against hard hitting Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams,but Tyson's style is even more made for Liston than Williams.

Liston in 2 rounds of a very entertaining and great fight,and very brutal.

Liston wins by the 3 knock down rule.

I wouldn't say Patterson fought scared, he fought stupid. I've seen pre-fight interviews with Patterson before the Liston fight and he seemed confident in his chances. He fought with an aggressive style as he did many times and it ended up being the wrong strategy. Had he stayed away and boxed, he may have gone a couple of more rounds but still not many more.

In the second fight he did freeze but that was after having already been knocked out in one round by Liston.

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Tyson had a good chin but he could be hurt and discouraged. Ruddock was way too one-dimensional by the time he fought Tyson, earlier on he had been more of a boxer. During the Tyson fights he could only throw a telegraphed left hand with which he thought he could knock anybody out. Didn't happen.


Liston can be hurt as well.

It's the punch you don't see that hurts you....Tyson was good at that.

And still, we are talking about a fighter that won the Olympic Gold at MW and then started to put on weight to get to HW in an era where 175+ was good...going up against a 200+ pound HW in Sonny Liston.
Patterson was more of a LH to me.

Could you imagine LH Roy Jones beating young Tyson...even the HW version of Roy?

Maybe Patterson wasn't scared but I did read an article that said he was from people that saw him before the fight...but that could be their opinion.

I saw the interviews before with Patterson talking about Liston but that was Patterson: calm and collected...very genial. He was far away from the battle.

Here is something: Shamrba Mitchell talked a lot of trash about Kostya Tszyu before their fight....will take the second fight for example...and he seemed relatively confident he would beat Tszyu. Anyway, when people saw him before the fight, in the locker-room...like Emanuel Steward and Tyson, they said he looked scared and were even surprised.

Geez, where to start? Let me first say that we can debate this without condesending remarks about what fights I have or haven't seen. Let's keep it real, and let the takes speak for themselves. And come on, do I sound like the kind of cat who would show his mug on a boxing history board without seeing Tyson-Douglas? 14 year old blond girls from Australia have seen that fight.
Anyway, I don't see what Ruddock being able to KO Patterson has anything to do with Tyson-Liston. That's not even a stretch, it's a different topic. I never said Tyson was chinny, or that his ability to take a punch was comparable to Patterson at all. Tyson could take a punch, but you are vastly overrating his ability to take a punch. I don't think undertraining makes Marvin Hagler turn into Thomas Hearns. And are you saying that Marciano, Foreman and Ali weren't in shape for the fights you mentioned? The fact remains that Tony Tucker made a prime Tyson skip a bit late in their fight, Bruno wobbled him, Douglas hurt Tyson several times, having him out on his feet twice, as did Holyfield, and Liston hit harder than all of them by a considerable magin. Bruno aside, I stand by my take on Douglas and Holyfield (and certainly Tucker) having a medium punch, at best.
I expect Oliver McCall to say something like Douglas hit harder than Lewis, which is preposterous and he knows it, since Douglas beat him and he beat Lewis. Also, I don't expect realist information from Brooks and Giachetti (no one outside of his fat greasy head thought Ruddock had "the greatest single shot in boxing", that's crazy talk), two guys on Tyson's payroll at one time or another. And Ferdie Pacheco is an outright buffoon.
Tyson did NOT fight big punchers. He was always troubled by a good jab. Liston had a tremendous jab. Liston had the skills, size, mentality and power to take Tyson to pieces, and I think he would.

My point with the "Chin" is that most fighters, even the Greats, have been put on their ass. With Tyson, it was always from accumulation...and he was more vulnerable when he stopped training properly. Head-movement and your own attack = less chance of being hit. Highly conditioned and Mentally focused to fight = less chance of being hurt.
Being poorly conditioned and not focused to fight, not focused to take punches, will leave you on the ground. We see this all the time with past prime fighters fighting for a paycheck.

Ali wasn't a "puncher" yet he was able to KO Liston and Foreman...even hurt Frazier. Many factors as to why: Liston was past his prime which can hurt a bit. Liston couldn't see the punches coming which also hurts. That's why he was knocked out in the second fight; he didn't see the punch coming.

Foreman: exhausted himself and made himself vulnerable for Ali to tag him but it wouldn't be the last time he was dropped. Lyle knocked him down and so did Young.

Marciano: always in shape but got dropped twice by solid shots.

Ali: Dropped and nearly knocked out by Cooper and Banks had him down.

All fighters known for their "Chin" yet all went down and were hurt.

That's boxing.


I doubt Liston hit harder than Tucker, Douglas, and Bruno by "considerable margin." This is one things fans get way out of hand with by saying fighters hit 10x hard than another when in truth, there may be a difference but it isn't day and night difference. Hard punchers are hard punchers.
Shavers can probably hit harder than Foreman but not by a lot; the same with Foreman and Tyson and so on. They are all punchers. They are all big 200+ pound fighters.

McCall said Douglas hit him harder than Lewis so maybe Lewis is a soft puncher. Holyfield also mentioned that one thing that made him cautious and train for Douglas was because he also saw the power in Douglas, specifically his Jab...a Jab that had rocked and knocked an opponent down.
Plus, again, accumulation. How many times did Douglas nail Tyson clean throughout that fight?
Then, remember, you are more vulnerable when you are in poor condition both mentally and physically. A lot goes into being able to absorb punishment.

This is why I brought up Holyfield as well: Holyfield said Tyson hadn't taken a hit since getting out of jail so he knew he could get to Tyson.
Take for example Ali: When he came out of jail he changed his method in sparring to allow sparring partners to unload on him in order to get his body adjusted to taking punches again and build his tolerance. Without that, he isn't lasting against Frazier and Foreman.
For Tyson, he slacked off in training as mentioned in the article I put up.
And then again, condition: If you are not in shape you start to exhaust and once you exhaust your body is susceptible to being hurt.


expect Oliver McCall to say something like Douglas hit harder than Lewis, which is preposterous and he knows it, since Douglas beat him and he beat Lewis. Also, I don't expect realist information from Brooks and Giachetti (no one outside of his fat greasy head thought Ruddock had "the greatest single shot in boxing", that's crazy talk), two guys on Tyson's payroll at one time or another. And Ferdie Pacheco is an outright buffoon.


Let's just go ahead and discount what anybody in boxing says.

That's their opinion and you have yours.


But you would think, a 6'5, 240 pound Heavy Puncher in Lennox Lewis would have taken out a Shot version of Tyson in round 1 since I guess in your opinion, Tyson's chin was just above average.

Even Lewis said he was amazed at what Tyson could take. And that is from a fighter that wasn't training properly, wasn't motivated, and had already taken beatings in and outside of the ring.

Liston can be hurt as well.

It's the punch you don't see that hurts you....Tyson was good at that.

I wouldn't argue that but I was mostly responding to Giachetti's claim that Tyson had the "greatest chin of all time". Now that's an overstatement.

Razor Ruddock threw bombs but Tyson pretty much knew they were coming and just grit his teeth. No variety from Ruddock whatsoever.

I wouldn't argue that but I was mostly responding to Giachetti's claim that Tyson had the "greatest chin of all time". Now that's an overstatement.

Razor Ruddock threw bombs but Tyson pretty much knew they were coming and just grit his teeth. No variety from Ruddock whatsoever.

Well that may be a stretch but he still had a point. Tyson's chin was solid.

Liston didn't hit as fast as Ruddock and was coming in from more eye-level...Tyson couldn't prepare himself for Liston's punches?


Some of the punches Ruddock did land landed on Tyson's blind side...second fight.

Ruddock did hurt Tyson in their second fight as well but Tyson still stood up and fought back.
He was catching Tyson clean at times as well.

Well that may be a stretch but he still had a point. Tyson's chin was solid.

Liston didn't hit as fast as Ruddock and was coming in from more eye-level...Tyson couldn't prepare himself for Liston's punches?


Some of the punches Ruddock did land landed on Tyson's blind side...second fight.

Tyson had a solid chin, even Teddy Atlas would agree with you on that.

Liston had much better variety. Against Patterson he seemed to anticipate Patterson's movements before Floyd even made his move. He could hurt people with jabs, right hands, hooks and uppercuts from either hand.

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Tyson had a solid chin, even Teddy Atlas would agree with you on that.

Liston had much better variety. Against Patterson he seemed to anticipate Patterson's movements before Floyd even made his move. He could hurt people with jabs, right hands, hooks and uppercuts from either hand.

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Notice anything different between Patterson and Tyson (besides size)?

Ruddock vs. Tyson: What "time" do you want me to look at?


Foreman actually thought Tyson was done at this point {Ruddock fight}

Notice anything different between Patterson and Tyson (besides size)?

Ruddock vs. Tyson: What "time" do you want me to look at?


Foreman actually thought Tyson was done at this point {Ruddock fight}

I notice a lot of things different with Patterson and Tyson and I wouldn't compare the two really. Liston beating Patterson doesn't necessarily mean a thing regarding this particular match-up.

I was trying to point out that Liston was a much "better" puncher than Ruddock was, who had fallen in love with his left hand and evidently so had the rest of the boxing world.

I posted the Ruddock fight in case you wanted to take another look at what Ruddock was doing and compare it to Sonny Liston. It's a repetitive fight with Ruddock throwing his big left hand, occasionally connecting, and taking heavy punishment to the body and at times below the belt.

It would be an exaggeration to say Tyson was done but he was very obviously a diminished fighter from the Tyson of 1988.

I notice a lot of things different with Patterson and Tyson and I wouldn't compare the two really. Liston beating Patterson doesn't necessarily mean a thing regarding this particular match-up.

I was trying to point out that Liston was a much "better" puncher than Ruddock was, who had fallen in love with his left hand and evidently so had the rest of the boxing world.

I posted the Ruddock fight in case you wanted to take another look at what Ruddock was doing and compare it to Sonny Liston. It's a repetitive fight with Ruddock throwing his big left hand, occasionally connecting, and taking heavy punishment to the body and at times below the belt.

It would be an exaggeration to say Tyson was done but he was very obviously a diminished fighter from the Tyson of 1988.

True. Liston was a threat with all punches and fought behind the jab...something that would have helped Ruddock throughout his career.

Patterson was backing up to much allowing Liston to extend his jab and do what he wanted. Tyson would be on him, bobbing and weaving in...even behind his own jab (which I do think he would use and land). Tyson wouldn't be scared/cautious because he knows he can take a punch and give it. As well as some other things.

"Done" as far as him being the same fighter.

Foreman changed as well I thought after he destroyed Frazier.

That's why I like that line Floyd Patterson used when asked what he would advise to Tyson (after he lost to Douglas): "Remember what got you there."




Here is a nice article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139899/1/index.htm

The Foreman quote was in one of the S.I. articles.


I don't know: I still can see Tyson beating Liston. I like Foreman over Tyson because he was taller, more aggressive and pushed people around...and I don't think he was as slow as some people make him out to be...not young George.



Found the quote and article:

On Friday night, Foreman paid $34.95 to watch the Tyson-Ruddock fight on pay-per-view television. "After the seventh round it looked like a lot of holding to me," said Foreman. "One guy would hit the other, and then he'd hope the other guy wouldn't hit him back. I think Tyson is gone. It's like Carl Lewis and some of those other runners: One year they are beating everybody, and the next year you never hear their names. Tyson has become average. And an average fighter can be beaten by anybody on a given night."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139727/3/index.htm




Foreman was more of a bad style matchup for Tyson than Liston in my opinion even though some people want to compare them.

True. Liston was a threat with all punches and fought behind the jab...something that would have helped Ruddock throughout his career.

Patterson was backing up to much allowing Liston to extend his jab and do what he wanted. Tyson would be on him, bobbing and weaving in...even behind his own jab (which I do think he would use and land). Tyson wouldn't be scared/cautious because he knows he can take a punch and give it. As well as some other things.

"Done" as far as him being the same fighter.

Foreman changed as well I thought after he destroyed Frazier.

That's why I like that line Floyd Patterson used when asked what he would advise to Tyson (after he lost to Douglas): "Remember what got you there."




Here is a nice article:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139899/1/index.htm

The Foreman quote was in one of the S.I. articles.


I don't know: I still can see Tyson beating Liston. I like Foreman over Tyson because he was taller, more aggressive and pushed people around...and I don't think he was as slow as some people make him out to be...not young George.



Found the quote and article:

On Friday night, Foreman paid $34.95 to watch the Tyson-Ruddock fight on pay-per-view television. "After the seventh round it looked like a lot of holding to me," said Foreman. "One guy would hit the other, and then he'd hope the other guy wouldn't hit him back. I think Tyson is gone. It's like Carl Lewis and some of those other runners: One year they are beating everybody, and the next year you never hear their names. Tyson has become average. And an average fighter can be beaten by anybody on a given night."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139727/3/index.htm




Foreman was more of a bad style matchup for Tyson than Liston in my opinion even though some people want to compare them.
Liston was an intimidating fighter with a very powerful and accurate left jab.. He also possessed a considerable size advantage over most of his opponets, much in the same way the Klitschko's do today..
Liston in fact was quite lucky to have a small guy like Patterson, to bully the title from..
I know you've heard it all before, but it's 100% true.. Anyone who was good enough to put Liston under pressure was able to expose him as a crude slugger with limited accuracy and timing..
Eddie Machen, in my opinion, showed the young Cassius Clay, exactly how to beat him.. I mean, how does a grown up monster like Liston lose inside the distance to a 21 year old kid?? I mean you can see it with Tyson beating someone like Berbick, whose limitations were universally recognized, but the all conquering Liston SHOULD, according to gospel, have done a hell of a lot better than he actually did..
His jab may have been the best of all time, but his attacking arsenal lacked definition & accuracy, with many of his power shots flailing wide off the mark..
With the lone exception of Clay, who did Liston fight who was anywhere near as good as Mike Tyson?? Please don't make me laugh with Patterson, Cleveland Williams or Leotis Martin, because they simply were not..
I hear all the echo's of 'bad style match up' but it doesn't wash.. Tyson was almost as tall as Liston, same power, twice as fast, 10 times more accurate, a bigger heart, and a better chin.. I won't detract, Mike would swarm all over him for a particularly brutal and early KO..

True. Liston was a threat with all punches and fought behind the jab...something that would have helped Ruddock throughout his career.

Patterson was backing up to much allowing Liston to extend his jab and do what he wanted. Tyson would be on him, bobbing and weaving in...even behind his own jab (which I do think he would use and land). Tyson wouldn't be scared/cautious because he knows he can take a punch and give it. As well as some other things.

Look at the first fight between Liston and Patterson though. Patterson was very aggressive but Liston used his underrated footwork to stay away and roughed him up in the clinches. Of course easier to do with Patterson than Tyson.

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"Done" as far as him being the same fighter.

Foreman changed as well I thought after he destroyed Frazier.

That's why I like that line Floyd Patterson used when asked what he would advise to Tyson (after he lost to Douglas): "Remember what got you there."

I don't know: I still can see Tyson beating Liston. I like Foreman over Tyson because he was taller, more aggressive and pushed people around...and I don't think he was as slow as some people make him out to be...not young George.

Found the quote and article:

On Friday night, Foreman paid $34.95 to watch the Tyson-Ruddock fight on pay-per-view television. "After the seventh round it looked like a lot of holding to me," said Foreman. "One guy would hit the other, and then he'd hope the other guy wouldn't hit him back. I think Tyson is gone. It's like Carl Lewis and some of those other runners: One year they are beating everybody, and the next year you never hear their names. Tyson has become average. And an average fighter can be beaten by anybody on a given night."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1139727/3/index.htm

I agree with the quote. Now Tyson wasn't done, he could still beat fighters on the level of Ruddock and Stewart and later after coming back from prison Frank Bruno, Frans Botha, Andrew Golota and Bruce Seldon but he was no longer the fighter D'Amato and Rooney trained, that much was obvious watching his fights against Ruddock.

Foreman was more of a bad style matchup for Tyson than Liston in my opinion even though some people want to compare them.

I agree it's a different match-up.

Liston was an intimidating fighter with a very powerful and accurate left jab.. He also possessed a considerable size advantage over most of his opponets, much in the same way the Klitschko's do today..
Liston in fact was quite lucky to have a small guy like Patterson, to bully the title from..

Liston had already taken Patterson's title by beating all the top contenders around while Patterson was fighting the likes of Brian London and Tom McNeeley. Their fight was just a confirmation that Liston was the better heavyweight of the two.

He fought plenty of people who were as big as him or bigger. Cleveland Williams obviously, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn was said to be 6'4 although he is listed at around 6'3, top 10 ranked Henry Clark much later in his career.

I know you've heard it all before, but it's 100% true.. Anyone who was good enough to put Liston under pressure was able to expose him as a crude slugger with limited accuracy and timing..
Eddie Machen, in my opinion, showed the young Cassius Clay, exactly how to beat him.. I mean, how does a grown up monster like Liston lose inside the distance to a 21 year old kid?? I mean you can see it with Tyson beating someone like Berbick, whose limitations were universally recognized, but the all conquering Liston SHOULD, according to gospel, have done a hell of a lot better than he actually did..
His jab may have been the best of all time, but his attacking arsenal lacked definition & accuracy, with many of his power shots flailing wide off the mark..
With the lone exception of Clay, who did Liston fight who was anywhere near as good as Mike Tyson?? Please don't make me laugh with Patterson, Cleveland Williams or Leotis Martin, because they simply were not..
I hear all the echo's of 'bad style match up' but it doesn't wash.. Tyson was almost as tall as Liston, same power, twice as fast, 10 times more accurate, a bigger heart, and a better chin.. I won't detract, Mike would swarm all over him for a particularly brutal and early KO..

Liston lost to a 22 year old, a 22 year old Muhammad Ali perhaps the greatest heavyweight of all time. How does one lose to a fringe contender like Buster Douglas at 23 years of age? That's what Tyson did. I also don't even want to compare how Tyson would have done at 33-35 against a prime Muhammad Ali.

Eddie Machen to me showed that Liston could deal with a tricky opponent who put up the best fight of his life while Liston was expecting a one round knockout. It was Liston who came on in the late rounds to seal the decision win.

Aside from a 38 year old Holmes, the equivalent of Sonny beating up on an old Rocky Marciano, Tyson fought two men on the level of Liston and lost to them both on TKO's. His defining win and performance, a one round knockout of Michael Spinks, is second to Liston's two 1 round KO's over Patterson, a better heavyweight than Spinks.

Man, what's up with Leotis Martin? Liston was nearing 50 years old and was winning the fight easily at the point of the KO anyway. The burden here does not exclusively lie at the feet of Liston to take Tyson's punches, navigate Tyson's "impregnable defense" or to show heart, despite what the Ali fights may show you. I wouldn't propose the Tyson of '97 anymore than I would the Liston of '64. Age aside, Liston knows a thing or two about layoffs and jail time as well.
If Liston could take Cleveland Williams's best shot and quite a few of them, he could take Tyson's.
Unlike Tyson, Liston was comfortable moving forwards or backwards.
Unlike Tyson, Liston was capable of making adjustments throughout a fight.
Unlike Tyson, Liston wasn't discouraged, Tyson folded every time he lost a couple of rounds.
While different, Liston's power was equal to Tyson's in dispatching his opponents.
While different, Liston was just as adept at head and lateral movement as young Tyson.

You're not going to catch me saying Tyson doesn't have heart, he does. But really, people. Do you actually think Tyson would finish a fight while losing with a broken jaw?
Tyson is not "almost as tall" as Liston. Liston had about 2 inches on Tyson (who always had an exagerrated height anyway), and in terms of "boxing height" Tyson has a 71" reach versus Liston's 84". How often do you see a 13 inch reach advantage? Liston was the bigger, stronger man.
Regarding Foreman, he has always said that in his initial career Sonny Liston was the template for him, the fighter he aspired to be stylistically. Foreman's jab is Liston's jab.

[QUOTE=TheGreatA;6485942]Look at the first fight between Liston and Patterson though. Patterson was very aggressive but Liston used his underrated footwork to stay away and roughed him up in the clinches. Of course easier to do with Patterson than Tyson.

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I agree with the quote. Now Tyson wasn't done, he could still beat fighters on the level of Ruddock and Stewart and later after coming back from prison Frank Bruno, Frans Botha, Andrew Golota and Bruce Seldon but he was no longer the fighter D'Amato and Rooney trained, that much was obvious watching his fights against Ruddock.



I agree it's a different match-up.



Liston had already taken Patterson's title by beating all the top contenders around while Patterson was fighting the likes of Brian London and Tom McNeeley. Their fight was just a confirmation that Liston was the better heavyweight of the two.

He fought plenty of people who were as big as him or bigger. Cleveland Williams obviously, Nino Valdes, Mike DeJohn was said to be 6'4 although he is listed at around 6'3, top 10 ranked Henry Clark much later in his career.



Liston lost to a 22 year old, a 22 year old Muhammad Ali perhaps the greatest heavyweight of all time. How does one lose to a fringe contender like Buster Douglas at 23 years of age? That's what Tyson did. I also don't even want to compare how Tyson would have done at 33-35 against a prime Muhammad Ali.

Eddie Machen to me showed that Liston could deal with a tricky opponent who put up the best fight of his life while Liston was expecting a one round knockout. It was Liston who came on in the late rounds to seal the decision win.

Aside from a 38 year old Holmes, the equivalent of Sonny beating up on an old Rocky Marciano, Tyson fought two men on the level of Liston and lost to them both on TKO's. His defining win and performance, a one round knockout of Michael Spinks, is second to Liston's two 1 round KO's over Patterson, a better heavyweight than Spinks.

Sorry, It was Patterson who was 21, but at 22 Ali wasn't really expected to beat Liston, just as Tyson wasn't expected to be making his 9th (I think) title defense, while I'd suggest what should have been his pre-prime years..
Tyson kicks ass on resume, he was almost a veteran world champ at 23!
With ref to 'most' of Liston's opponents being smaller, they were, but yes, he did fight and beat some bigger men to.
With Macken, it's just the alternative view.. Liston at the time, was proposterosly overrated, and was expected to KO everyone he faced, & I believe he was even a slight favorite in the rematch with Ali! All Macken did was show the world that Liston was not invincible, just as James Smith had with Tyson.. Not saying Smith's better than Macken, but much like Leotis Martin or Mac Foster (who Liston ducked) was a danger man to anyone in the division..
Reach could cause an initial problem against Liston, but if he got underneath the jab of Sonny, which with his crouching darting style, I highly suspect he would, it'll be crash, bang, wallop, what a picture! I'm afraid...

Thomas, Tucker, Spinks, Holmes, Bruno, Tubbs, Smith.. All world champions in one way or another.. 2 KO merchants and 5 noted stylists, one being 38 yr old Holmes..
Then you've got Ruddock (who never fought for the title!) who once again would have been a major threat in any era, as would all the above.. Tyson didn't hang around, he fought a lot of good talent there, & KO'd 6 of them..

first of all they are not as tough as you make them out to be,if liston was fighting today he would not even be good enough to be a sparring partner,and if tyson were fighting today he would not even be ranked in the top 50,the fight game as changed boxers do not get intimidated,if tyson and liston were to fight liston would not last one round he would get kayoed:boxing:

Man, what's up with Leotis Martin? Liston was nearing 50 years old and was winning the fight easily at the point of the KO anyway. The burden here does not exclusively lie at the feet of Liston to take Tyson's punches, navigate Tyson's "impregnable defense" or to show heart, despite what the Ali fights may show you. I wouldn't propose the Tyson of '97 anymore than I would the Liston of '64. Age aside, Liston knows a thing or two about layoffs and jail time as well.
If Liston could take Cleveland Williams's best shot and quite a few of them, he could take Tyson's.
Unlike Tyson, Liston was comfortable moving forwards or backwards.
Unlike Tyson, Liston was capable of making adjustments throughout a fight.
Unlike Tyson, Liston wasn't discouraged, Tyson folded every time he lost a couple of rounds.
While different, Liston's power was equal to Tyson's in dispatching his opponents.
While different, Liston was just as adept at head and lateral movement as young Tyson.

You're not going to catch me saying Tyson doesn't have heart, he does. But really, people. Do you actually think Tyson would finish a fight while losing with a broken jaw?
Tyson is not "almost as tall" as Liston. Liston had about 2 inches on Tyson (who always had an exagerrated height anyway), and in terms of "boxing height" Tyson has a 71" reach versus Liston's 84". How often do you see a 13 inch reach advantage? Liston was the bigger, stronger man.
Regarding Foreman, he has always said that in his initial career Sonny Liston was the template for him, the fighter he aspired to be stylistically. Foreman's jab is Liston's jab.
I've answered a lot of this in my previous post to GreatA, and I'm still not sold on Liston beating Tyson.. Nothing against Martin whatsoever, just quoted him as a 'dangerman' in the other post, and I'm aware he KO'd an old Liston, but Bruno, Smith & Ruddock would have been 'dangermen' in any era..

And yeh, I'd be very confident that Tyson would finish a fight with a broken jaw as you had to seriously hurt him, but ultimately put him flat on his back to beat him.. Tyson always went out on his shield and was a braver man than Liston.. He'd have definately done the same to Patterson, before putting on a much better display against Ali..

Sorry, It was Patterson who was 21, but at 22 Ali wasn't really expected to beat Liston, just as Tyson wasn't expected to be making his 9th (I think) title defense, while I'd suggest what should have been his pre-prime years..
Tyson kicks ass on resume, he was almost a veteran world champ at 23!
With ref to 'most' of Liston's opponents being smaller, they were, but yes, he did fight and beat some bigger men to.
With Macken, it's just the alternative view.. Liston at the time, was proposterosly overrated, and was expected to KO everyone he faced, & I believe he was even a slight favorite in the rematch with Ali! All Macken did was show the world that Liston was not invincible, just as James Smith had with Tyson.. Not saying Smith's better than Macken, but much like Leotis Martin or Mac Foster (who Liston ducked) was a danger man to anyone in the division..
Reach could cause an initial problem against Liston, but if he got underneath the jab of Sonny, which with his crouching darting style, I highly suspect he would, it'll be crash, bang, wallop, what a picture! I'm afraid...

Thomas, Tucker, Spinks, Holmes, Bruno, Tubbs, Smith.. All world champions in one way or another.. 2 KO merchants and 5 noted stylists, one being 38 yr old Holmes..
Then you've got Ruddock (who never fought for the title!) who once again would have been a major threat in any era, as would all the above.. Tyson didn't hang around, he fought a lot of good talent there, & KO'd 6 of them..

Ali, then Cassius Clay, wasn't expected to beat Liston because he wasn't thought of as much. Ali obviously proved everyone wrong and went onto become possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time. I don't see the point in saying "Liston was favoured", "Ali wasn't highly regarded", it's still Muhammad Ali we are talking about.

Douglas too wasn't expected to beat Tyson (42 to 1 odds), he went onto get knocked out by Holyfield and balloon up to 400 pounds.

The names you listed were good but hardly comparable to Sonny Liston, aside from possibly Ruddock who as I already pointed out was much more one-dimensional.

I'd compare those fighters to Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Nino Valdes and so on. They would have been world champions as well had there been three or more titles around. Unfortunately there was only one and it belonged to Sonny Liston.

Ali, then Cassius Clay, wasn't expected to beat Liston because he wasn't thought of as much. Ali obviously proved everyone wrong and went onto become possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time. I don't see the point in saying "Liston was favoured", "Ali wasn't highly regarded", it's still Muhammad Ali we are talking about.

Douglas too wasn't expected to beat Tyson (42 to 1 odds), he went onto get knocked out by Holyfield and balloon up to 400 pounds.

The names you listed were good but hardly comparable to Sonny Liston, aside from possibly Ruddock who as I already pointed out was much more one-dimensional.

I'd compare those fighters to Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Nino Valdes and so on. They would have been world champions as well had there been three or more titles around. Unfortunately there was only one and it belonged to Sonny Liston.
Exactly I listed them in comparison to the fighters you listed, ie Listons opponents, NOT Liston himself, I'm just highlighting why a pre-Douglas Tyson, beats any version of Sonny Liston..

first of all they are not as tough as you make them out to be,if liston was fighting today he would not even be good enough to be a sparring partner,and if tyson were fighting today he would not even be ranked in the top 50,the fight game as changed boxers do not get intimidated,if tyson and liston were to fight liston would not last one round he would get kayoed:boxing:
To be fair what previous ATG could get into the current deep top 50 HW's?

It is so hard to crack look at what it took for Tua to get rated @ 12, he had to beat Shane Cameron in his first fight for 2 years.
Briggs is at 30 he has lost his only fight in 3 years.

If Tyson hit his postman he'd be in the top 20.

I can't get past Liston's jab and 84 inch reach on this one.
I don't think Tyson would either often enough before Liston put some serious hurt on him.

To be fair what previous ATG could get into the current deep top 50 HW's?

It is so hard to crack look at what it took for Tua to get rated @ 12, he had to beat Shane Cameron in his first fight for 2 years.
Briggs is at 30 he has lost his only fight in 3 years.

If Tyson hit his postman he'd be in the top 20.

Tyson's sparring partner Oliver McCall is top 50.

I can't get past Liston's jab and 84 inch reach on this one.
I don't think Tyson would either often enough before Liston put some serious hurt on him.

Exactly I listed them in comparison to the fighters you listed, ie Listons opponents, NOT Liston himself, I'm just highlighting why a pre-Douglas Tyson, beats any version of Sonny Liston..

What this discussion really boils down to is not so much how you view Tyson as it is how you rate Liston. There's a wide divergence of opinion as to how good he really was: Some think him grossly overrated some underrated. I tend to side with the latter as I rank Sonny the #6 all-time Heavyweight.

Poet

What this discussion really boils down to is not so much how you view Tyson as it is how you rate Liston. There's a wide divergence of opinion as to how good he really was: Some think him grossly overrated some underrated. I tend to side with the latter as I rank Sonny the #6 all-time Heavyweight.

Poet
I'd say that I'm probably in the minority in this debate, and don't rate him quite as highly as most of you guys.. He is by no means a slouch at 10 on my sig..

I'd say that I'm probably in the minority in this debate, and don't rate him quite as highly as most of you guys.. He is by no means a slouch at 10 on my sig..

Yeah, you and I basically flip Tyson and Liston. I have Liston 6 and Tyson 10 while you have Tyson 6 and Liston 10 :rofl:

Poet

I can't get past Liston's jab and 84 inch reach on this one.
I don't think Tyson would either often enough before Liston put some serious hurt on him.

I understand reach is a big deal but you are going to have to name me an opponent when Tyson was with Rooney and trained that reach prevented him from winning?

It's like people act like Tyson was the Giant in there when in the majority of his fights he was the smaller Man, both in height and weight....and was always at a disadvantage with reach.

Tucker was really the only one to give him fits with the jab and even him, at
6'5, 220+ and an 82 inch reach, started to get out-jabbed when Rooney demanded the 5'11, 215 pounds, and only a 71 inch reach Tyson to start using the jab. And Tucker was on the move and liked to clinch so it made it even harder.

Tyson has Speed, Accuracy, Timing and elusiveness...also the ability to double, triple up on his jab....specifically with smaller fighters closer to his height. Much harder to leap up and throw a jab against a 6'5 fighter that is moving like Tucker.

Liston isn't that fast and if you keep too far away from him, sure, that 84 inch reach comes in play more.
Tyson would have to worry about Liston's inside game which was very good...as well as Liston's ability to defend and understand distance when somebody is trying to attack him. Only Clay/Ali was Liston out-matched...although Liston was arguably past it...but I'm not quite sure how much it would have mattered because it was Ali.


But if you point me to some fights I may be over-looking, I'll take a look and consider it.

I understand reach is a big deal but you are going to have to name me an opponent when Tyson was with Rooney and trained that reach prevented him from winning?

The riposte to that, though, is that Tyson fought no one of Liston's calibre when he was Rooney trained let alone someone of Liston's calibre who had a huge reach advantage. It wasn't until Mike fought Lennox Lewis that it could be said that he had and in fairness to Tyson he was pretty much washed up by that point.

Poet

Liston isn't that fast and if you keep too far away from him, sure, that 84 inch reach comes in play more.
Tyson would have to worry about Liston's inside game which was very good...as well as Liston's ability to defend and understand distance when somebody is trying to attack him.

Reach is important but only if the guy with the bigger reach knows how to use it. A lot of the fighters who Tyson was fighting when with Rooney were not even landing a jab on Tyson. Tyson was fast but they should have landed something, only problem was they were beaten before they got in there and were in pure survival mode. No one tried to control the centre of the ring behind their jab.
My problem with Tyson is that as you point out he isn't going to win inside either so long range I have Liston favourite and inside too.
Remember Bonecrusher outstrengthed Tyson and nullified him on the inside and limited Tyson to one shot combos so to speak, Tyson isn't going to knock out Liston with one punch in my view.
Both have good chins so I don't see a fast fight either way so after around 8 rounds I think Liston's jabs are going to count big time.
It is not a dead cert, Tyson has a chance for sure, but I favour the 59 Liston strongly.

The riposte to that, though, is that Tyson fought no one of Liston's calibre when he was Rooney trained let alone someone of Liston's calibre who had a huge reach advantage. It wasn't until Mike fought Lennox Lewis that it could be said that he had and in fairness to Tyson he was pretty much washed up by that point.

Poet

I can agree with that as far as the combination of the Liston's powerful long reaching jab mixed with his talents over Tyson's comeptition.


I thought Tucker at 6'5, 220+, 82 inch reach, and agile with skill...is still a decent look at what Tyson could do. However, Tucker hurt his right hand so it isn't a 100% accurate example as solidifying the statement because even with the Jab being Tucker's left hand, the right was part of his arsenal to keep an opponent off and think more.
Tucker is another one that let it all go. Something with those 80's Heavyweights.


I thought Lennox pawed with his jab too much like Holmes said.

Liston's jab was sharp and thunderous with the intention of hurting his opponent bad while knocking his opponents head back so that he could throw another punch behind it. But I understand what you are getting at.
Young Foreman, as seen in the Olympic Gold medal match, also had the same intention as Liston. I thought Foreman ditched that jab after Frazier and just thought he could blow people away with his other punches.
I really don't get why fighters don't remember to, in the words of Floyd Patterson, "Remember what got you there."

I can agree with that as far as the combination of the Liston's powerful long reaching jab mixed with his talents over Tyson's comeptition.

I thought Tucker at 6'5, 220+, 82 inch reach, and agile with skill...is still a decent look at what Tyson could do. However, Tucker hurt his right hand so it isn't a 100% accurate example as solidifying the statement because even with the Jab being Tucker's left hand, the right was part of his arsenal to keep an opponent off and think more.
Tucker is another one that let it all go. Something with those 80's Heavyweights.

I think partially it's because Tucker went into survival mode after he broke his hand. That may well get you to the final bell (which in Tucker's case it did) but it isn't conducive to landing punches.

Yeah, that's one of the reasons I think so poorly of '80s Heavyweights lol.


I thought Lennox pawed with his jab too much like Holmes said.

In fairness though really good Heavyweight jabs have been few and far between so when someone has an above average one it tends to stand out more.


I really don't get why fighters don't remember to, in the words of Floyd Patterson, "Remember what got you there."

Doesn't it, with some notable exceptions, always seem to be that way though?

Poet

The riposte to that, though, is that Tyson fought no one of Liston's calibre when he was Rooney trained let alone someone of Liston's calibre who had a huge reach advantage. It wasn't until Mike fought Lennox Lewis that it could be said that he had and in fairness to Tyson he was pretty much washed up by that point.

Poet
Maybe Tyson's opponents wern't as good as Liston, but those he did face were all the contenders of the day with whom he deposed of with effortless precision..
I find it difficult to remember him losing a round in title fights b4 Douglas..
When you consider the ease with which he won his fights, it could be suggested that Liston would have only extended him to pull out a career best performance..

Maybe Tyson's opponents wern't as good as Liston, but those he did face were all the contenders of the day with whom he deposed of with effortless precision..
I find it difficult to remember him losing a round in title fights b4 Douglas..
When you consider the ease with which he won his fights, it could be suggested that Liston would have only extended him to pull out a career best performance..

They may have been the best available for the era but not all eras are equal. Strength of opposition ie. who you do it against counts for a lot. For lost rounds in title fights see Pinklon Thomas and Tony Tucker for the two that immediately pop into my head. As for how he won, well let's just say knockouts don't really impress me. A quick KO counts the same for me as a lopsided decision. Liston inflicted his share of brutal KOs I might add (see the Bethea and two Williams fights).

Poet

Reach is important but only if the guy with the bigger reach knows how to use it. A lot of the fighters who Tyson was fighting when with Rooney were not even landing a jab on Tyson. Tyson was fast but they should have landed something, only problem was they were beaten before they got in there and were in pure survival mode. No one tried to control the centre of the ring behind their jab.
My problem with Tyson is that as you point out he isn't going to win inside either so long range I have Liston favourite and inside too.
Remember Bonecrusher outstrengthed Tyson and nullified him on the inside and limited Tyson to one shot combos so to speak, Tyson isn't going to knock out Liston with one punch in my view.
Both have good chins so I don't see a fast fight either way so after around 8 rounds I think Liston's jabs are going to count big time.
It is not a dead cert, Tyson has a chance for sure, but I favour the 59 Liston strongly.

Some of that "being beaten before they got in there" also had a lot to do with Tyson. Read my Tyson quote below in my sig. :D


Bonecrusher wouldn't throw and he used his Height, Weight, and Reach to grab at Tyson.
Tyson's style is partly based on making you throw, making you miss, and then him countering. And this would repeat until the fighter decides to pack it in for the night because he can't land his own punches and Tyson is landing his.
Even when he goes straight for you early on, you can either cover up or fight back to get him off you and hope he stops...he still has a plan of action.
One of those fighters that I can't see Tyson doing that against is Foreman who would come right at you and push you around like you were a little kid. It would be like a Father vs. Son matchup with Foreman being the Father. Of course the Father can be caught and dropped...but I would put my money on the Father to get back up and waive his finger and give his son the belt treatment after.


Tyson needs you to throw. He is small compared to his opponents in that era so it takes more work to break down the Bigger fighters.
Tyson was actually lucky he had a body attack during that time that wore out his bigger opponents because it would have caught up to him in the mid-late rounds if he hadn't taken something away from them early on...which is why he did it.

Some of that "being beaten before they got in there" also had a lot to do with Tyson. Read my Tyson quote below in my sig. :D


Bonecrusher wouldn't throw and he used his Height, Weight, and Reach to grab at Tyson.
Tyson's style is partly based on making you throw, making you miss, and then him countering. And this would repeat until the fighter decides to pack it in for the night because he can't land his own punches and Tyson is landing his.
Even when he goes straight for you early on, you can either cover up or fight back to get him off you and hope he stops...he still has a plan of action.
One of those fighters that I can't see Tyson doing that against is Foreman who would come right at you and push you around like you were a little kid. It would be like a Father vs. Son matchup with Foreman being the Father. Of course the Father can be caught and dropped...but I would put my money on the Father to get back up and waive his finger and give his son the belt treatment after.


Tyson needs you to throw. He is small compared to his opponents in that era so it takes more work to break down the Bigger fighters.
Tyson was actually lucky he had a body attack during that time that wore out his bigger opponents because it would have caught up to him in the mid-late rounds if he hadn't taken something away from them early on...which is why he did it.
You make a good case for Tyson Benny and looking how opinion is divided it looks like this fight could well be a coin toss. I'm still putting my £1 on Liston though :)