When Browsing the forums for the last few years I've read countless times about americans being the most dominant country in Mixed Martial Arts. The grossly biased american rankings fuel this false conception with almost every weightclass having 50-60% americans in the top 10.

Example:
http://www.insidefighting.com/mma_rankings.aspx?cat=3 )

Many posters feel the same way. I don't agree with this opinion, and here is why.

Mixed Martial arts is an expensive sport, especially if you attend seminars, and train with quality sparring partners ect. The majority of fighters from brasil come from wealthy families as most of the population are very poor by North American standards. Look at how well Brasil does in comparison to America, they're neck and neck in my eyes, I may even give the edge to Brasil. A small percentage of Brasil is capable of getting envolved in MMA where as any working man from America can just jump right in. The talent pool is way larger in America having almost all of the population being able to afford to train. It's like this has been overlooked or something.

The UFC also plays a huge part in this propaganda, drawing mostly from an american talent pool. The UFC has BSed their way to the top of the Rankings with overhyped fighters. Examples: Tim Sylvia, Phil Baroni, Tito Ortiz, Robby Lawler,ect. If you ask me America is on their way to stealing another sport. Tim Sylvia is a perfect example of a fighter who was argued by many posters on sherdog to be #1 in the world at one point. Same with Tito. Look where they are now in relation to the fighters on the opposite end of the spectrum ( Wanderlei Silva, Nog).

I strongly believe that America isn't the most dominate nation in MMA, Nor is it on it's way to that prestige, unless self proclaimed ofcourse.

To start with:

What you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

:D Sorry, had too, ya made a pretty poor case for your argument. Really though, I'm pretty new to the whole mma thing, and haven't really came across anyone proclaiming Americas "da bomb" at mma and everyone else sucks.

Looks like I offended someone. Go to Sherdog, many of them start threads about how america is the best. Also, I do have a valid point with the ranking issue. It's discusting.

Also, you didn't adress **** in what I wrote, prove me wrong sweetness.


You called my post a "responce". To what, if you haven't heard anything about the issue?

You sound like a typical arrogant yankee, lots of points, prrrff, lots of hard up guy's on the net eh!

Phil Baroni's records blows
http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=278

Inside fighting has him in the top ten.


http://www.insidefighting.com/mma_rankings.aspx?cat=3 )

I never heard anyone making any statements saying american fighters where better than anybody else, but I tend too stay away from Sherdog. I actually think that the russians are putting out the best fighters right now....

I think the US certainly is ARGUABLY number one in terms of ranked fighters. Brazil, Eastern Europe, Japan and Holland also produce many good fighters. What rankings do you feel reflect the fighter's rankings best?

Where are you from btw?

I think the US certainly is ARGUABLY number one in terms of ranked fighters. Brazil, Eastern Europe, Japan and Holland also produce many good fighters. What rankings do you feel reflect the fighter's rankings best?

Where are you from btw?

That's the thing, in terms of ranked fighters and the rankings are BS. Especially insidefighting. I could find at least one instance in every weightclass where an american fighter holds a spot that he shouldn't. On top of that, all the rankings are put together by americans so it's difficult to find unbiased ones. The rankings I find the best are usually the ones that envolve polls where people from all around the world vote.

And I HAVE run into alot of people on sherdog over the last few years that claim the U.S is the best. It's undeniable.

I'm from British Columbia by the way.

Another example:

Josh barnett Ranked #6 at inside fighting

http://www.insidefighting.com/mma_rankings.aspx?cat=1

In the last 3 years, he has done close to nothing, he has a win over schilt more then a year ago, aside from that he has a few wins over some cans, and a loss to Mirko(I don't care about the injury).

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=272

Why the **** is this guy ahead of fighters like Kharitonov, who's record is similar as of late, only his loss was an impressive dec against Nog, he handed a better asswhoopin to schilt.

There is no real world ranking system in MMA though. So what you get are guys that whoever decides the rankings likes on the list. About the UFC using mostly American fighters, yeah its true, because it is here in america. Just like Pride uses alot of Japanese fighters in there shows.....

There is no real world ranking system in MMA though. So what you get are guys that whoever decides the rankings likes on the list. About the UFC using mostly American fighters, yeah its true, because it is here in america. Just like Pride uses alot of Japanese fighters in there shows.....


There is alot more americans in the UFC then Japanese in Pride. Infact waaay more. Infact I think it's pretty clear that Pride makes a solid effort to scout fighters from all over the world, where as the UFC makes a Solid effort to scout fighters from the U.S only, creating the illusion that Americans are the best at fighting. Just because there is no real world ranking system doesn't mean you shouldn't take into account fighters from all over the world. I've noticed a pattern in the last few years with american ranks aswell, The americans are always ranked higher then fighters of another nationality untill it's undeniable that the american can't be number one.

Example: Tito was ranked higher then silva for over a year, infact it took close to a year of inactivity for them to drop him to number 2. Then Randy came along, he was also ranked higher then Silva for a while. Silva was always active, and always winning. It has taken years for them to Rank Silva #1.

O ya, and how in the hell can those bastards at inside fighting and elsewhere not have Chonan in the top ten.

http://www.insidefighting.com/mma_rankings.aspx?cat=3

Chonan has 3 wins in the last 6 months 2 of which are over Anderson Silva and Carlos newton. Seeing how insidefighting has Randleman in the top ten heavyweight list(which must be from his one fluke over Cro-Cop), you'd think under this logic one of Chonans wins would but him in the top ten but NOPE!!!!!! He not American so he's not the best I guess.

See a pattern here?


Chonan's record

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=1831

And why the hell is Nathan Marquardt in the top ten? The guy has 1 win in the last 16 months and it's not very impressive.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=1712

OOOOO what a coinsidence, he's from Colorado. Prrrrrf.

Chonan would own this amateur.

There's no way to rank MMA on a global scale due to the fact that the fighters from the UFC don't compete against the ones in Pride so any "top ten" list is purely speculation on the writer's behalf. You could try by using a fighter's record, strength of opponents, etc. but it would still be bias due to the fact that the fighters from the big two promotions hardly ever compete against each other.
Also, inside fighting is mainly a boxing web site. Using their "top ten" as an example isn't fair. You should look at MMA Weekly's top ten. I think it's a little closer to reality http://www.mmaweekly.com/this_week/top10/index.htmleven though it's out dated and not completly accurate

edited to fix link

There is a reason why the best fighters don't fight that much. It's because they are busy running their own schools full of hundreds of students that want to learn from them because they are the best. Marquardt is very deserving of his rank. The guy pushed Almeida pretty good and Ricardo was basically #1 when he retired. And you can't blame the fighters for who the organization picks out for them to fight either. Honestly using Chonan isn't the best example because you picked a guy who was getting owned in his last fight, but a completely unranked fighter, until very bias reffing allowed him to get a win. Chonan is good, top 10 good, but I wouldn't push it much beyond that. Takase beat A.Silva and Newton and you don't see him in any top 30's let alone top 10's because he's not that good.

Besides, it doesn't matter. It's not like Pride or the UFC would make match ups according to who actually deserved a title shot

There is a reason why the best fighters don't fight that much. It's because they are busy running their own schools full of hundreds of students that want to learn from them because they are the best. Marquardt is very deserving of his rank. The guy pushed Almeida pretty good and Ricardo was basically #1 when he retired. And you can't blame the fighters for who the organization picks out for them to fight either. Honestly using Chonan isn't the best example because you picked a guy who was getting owned in his last fight, but a completely unranked fighter, until very bias reffing allowed him to get a win. Chonan is good, top 10 good, but I wouldn't push it much beyond that. Takase beat A.Silva and Newton and you don't see him in any top 30's let alone top 10's because he's not that good.

Takase got the judges dec over Newton but he didn't win that fight. Takase did beat Silva though. Chonan has 3 wins in the last 6 months 2 of which to Anderson and newton both fighters very good. I would argue anderson Silva to be in the top 5.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=1831

Good post though the last 2 were pretty good.

Americans dominate a few weight classes actually. Look at the 205 lb divison. Out of the top 5 fighters, 4 are americans. Couture Liddel Jackson and Ortiz with Silva being the only non american.

At heavyweight, they are lacking with Mir being the only one you could argue is top 5 behind Fedor Arlovski Cro Cop Nogueria and thats not even a lock as there are two other fighters who you could easily argue deserve to be number 5.

At 185 you have guys like Tanner Horn and Lindland, all 3 of whom would beat Chonan pretty easily. Espically Tanner and Lindland.

At 170 its guys like Penn Trigg Hughes Sherk that are all dominating. St Pierre is the only non american in my top 10 actually. Americans own the welterweight divison.

155 has a couple good americans. Edwards Thomson and Ludwig, although Ludwig is really inactive in MMA, are right at the top. This divison is really split 3 ways between Americans, Japanese and one fighter from brazil.

So yes, Americans are dominating MMA right now. At every divison except heavyweight they are the majority of top 10 fighters.

Americans dominate a few weight classes actually. Look at the 205 lb divison. Out of the top 5 fighters, 4 are americans. Couture Liddel Jackson and Ortiz with Silva being the only non american.

At heavyweight, they are lacking with Mir being the only one you could argue is top 5 behind Fedor Arlovski Cro Cop Nogueria and thats not even a lock as there are two other fighters who you could easily argue deserve to be number 5.

At 185 you have guys like Tanner Horn and Lindland, all 3 of whom would beat Chonan pretty easily. Espically Tanner and Lindland.

At 170 its guys like Penn Trigg Hughes Sherk that are all dominating. St Pierre is the only non american in my top 10 actually. Americans own the welterweight divison.

155 has a couple good americans. Edwards Thomson and Ludwig, although Ludwig is really inactive in MMA, are right at the top. This divison is really split 3 ways between Americans, Japanese and one fighter from brazil.

So yes, Americans are dominating MMA right now. At every divison except heavyweight they are the majority of top 10 fighters.


See this is exactly what I'm talking about, you fall back on these BS american rankings. The Welterweight Div is the only weight class I'd agree with you on. As for the 205 lb div, There are alot of good americans, and they hold their own but rankings in the U.S are mostly based on an american wrestling/organization in the UFC, and is a crock of ****.

I think you better read Curly's first post, I found it interesting. Aside from the heavyweight div which is more decisive, rankings mean ****. Your country isn't dominating MMA no matter how much you doctor the rankings.

By the way, Tanner is overrated and has wins over mostly cans.

Ludwig, only has his world class stand up and no takedown defence, he's not a good example. As for Ortiz, I'm a little insulted you would say he's top 5. That's absurd. The guy's only meaningfull win in the last year and a half is over Vitor, and he hardly won. If that fight was in Pride he would have definately lost.

Arona's record is more impressive. Alot more actually. He may have had a tough break with the Rampage fight but hey, that's Rampage.

Take a good look at Tanner's record.

http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterid=212

In the last 2 years he's 5-1, but 2 of his wins are over Baroni(which is the most overhyped joke in the UFC, and another win over Lawler which is close to the same thing. Tanner is a perfect example of a guy with a big long pretty record filled with wins over less the steller apponnent which happen to be mostly american. In the U.S it's americans fighting american so naturally you'll end up with americans with kick ass records springing them to the top ten. Anybody that truely buy's into all this crap has to take a good look at fighters from around the world particularly in the light weight divs.

You are calling Evan Tanner a joke? Tanner is an excellent fighter who has only lost twice in the past 5 1/2 years. Both of thoses loses were to excellent fighters in Ortiz and Franklin. Evan Tanner just beat the crap out of who a lot of people were calling the next big thing in the middleweight divison. Anderson Silva wouldn't stand a chance against Tanner. He is nothing on the ground and belive me, it would end up on the ground. As for Gumby, Horn wouldn't beat him ethier. Horn is the most over-rated fighter in MMA just because no one gets to see him fight because the biggest show he fights is KOTC. His biggest win in the past 2 years was David Loiseau. Other than that, he hasnt beaten anyone I would consider a A level opponent.

Also, when it comes to Ortiz, he is still a top 5 fighter. Its retarded to think anyone else should be in that position. Couture is number 1, Silva is number 2, Jackson is 3, Liddel 4 and Ortiz 5th. Maybe Nogueira or Henderson but Henderson is a natural 200 pounder, unlike Ortiz who cuts down from about 225. Nogueira could be there but he hasn't fought any of the top 5 guys. He looked great against Overeem but lost to Matyushenko who Ortiz dominated for 5 rounds. Arona has only fought against 2 top 10 light-heavy and only one top 5 fight and he lost that fight. He is 1-1 against the divisons best. Ortiz on the other hand is 5-2 against people who were top 10 at the time he fought them. Tell me why ethier of them should be ahead of Ortiz?

As for the lightweight divisons, you are right about that. A lot of people don't even know the names of 2 of the 3 top 155 fighters in the world. If you say the name of Vitor Ribeiro or Tatsuya Kawajiri people will look at you funny.

However, my point is that no other country in the world has as many top 10 fighters as America does. Yes, other countries produce great fighters, top 5 fighters. However, do the japanese have a fighter at 205+ thats top 5? Do the russians have a top 5 lightweight? Does brazil have a top 5 welterweight? Does Canada, my county, have a top 5 light-heavy wegiht? No. Do the americans? Yes. In each and every one of MMA's weight classes the americans are the only ones with at least one fighter you could argue is top 5.

Also, as to saying its pointless to do top 10 lists, thats just retarded. Its common sense in a lot of cases, although the order can vary. There isn't as much of a difference between 1 and 2 as there is in boxing in most cases but it can still be done. All top 10 lists are done with a little bit of guesswork. Thats why we get surprises. Upsets. Thats what makes the sport so enjoyable. Testing your knowlage of who should win and why and then seeing if you are right. A lot of times we get surprised.

I think I lost my point some where in that rant. Anyway, I will just close by saying prove my point about the americans being the only country in the world with at least one fighter in each weight class that could legitimately be on a top 5 list wrong. That was your original post wasnt it?

How can you say Arona's record is more impressive than Tito's? I believe Arona is a better fighter but he only has 1 finish on his entire MMA record. The rest are decisions and his loss' to Fedor and Rampage...

How can you say Arona's record is more impressive than Tito's? I believe Arona is a better fighter but he only has 1 finish on his entire MMA record. The rest are decisions and his loss' to Fedor and Rampage...

Are you kidding, a win is a win, and you can't really discredit Arona for his decisions, the level of competition he has wins over are higher, Dan henderson, Murilo ninja, Guy mezger etc. When ever Tito fights that level of competition he either get's owned, or eeks out a dec(the Silva fight) The fight's that he "finishes" Are over less then stellar apponents.

You are calling Evan Tanner a joke? Tanner is an excellent fighter who has only lost twice in the past 5 1/2 years. Both of thoses loses were to excellent fighters in Ortiz and Franklin. Evan Tanner just beat the crap out of who a lot of people were calling the next big thing in the middleweight divison. Anderson Silva wouldn't stand a chance against Tanner. He is nothing on the ground and belive me, it would end up on the ground. As for Gumby, Horn wouldn't beat him ethier. Horn is the most over-rated fighter in MMA just because no one gets to see him fight because the biggest show he fights is KOTC. His biggest win in the past 2 years was David Loiseau. Other than that, he hasnt beaten anyone I would consider a A level opponent.

Also, when it comes to Ortiz, he is still a top 5 fighter. Its retarded to think anyone else should be in that position. Couture is number 1, Silva is number 2, Jackson is 3, Liddel 4 and Ortiz 5th. Maybe Nogueira or Henderson but Henderson is a natural 200 pounder, unlike Ortiz who cuts down from about 225. Nogueira could be there but he hasn't fought any of the top 5 guys. He looked great against Overeem but lost to Matyushenko who Ortiz dominated for 5 rounds. Arona has only fought against 2 top 10 light-heavy and only one top 5 fight and he lost that fight. He is 1-1 against the divisons best. Ortiz on the other hand is 5-2 against people who were top 10 at the time he fought them. Tell me why ethier of them should be ahead of Ortiz?

As for the lightweight divisons, you are right about that. A lot of people don't even know the names of 2 of the 3 top 155 fighters in the world. If you say the name of Vitor Ribeiro or Tatsuya Kawajiri people will look at you funny.

However, my point is that no other country in the world has as many top 10 fighters as America does. Yes, other countries produce great fighters, top 5 fighters. However, do the japanese have a fighter at 205+ thats top 5? Do the russians have a top 5 lightweight? Does brazil have a top 5 welterweight? Does Canada, my county, have a top 5 light-heavy wegiht? No. Do the americans? Yes. In each and every one of MMA's weight classes the americans are the only ones with at least one fighter you could argue is top 5.

Also, as to saying its pointless to do top 10 lists, thats just retarded. Its common sense in a lot of cases, although the order can vary. There isn't as much of a difference between 1 and 2 as there is in boxing in most cases but it can still be done. All top 10 lists are done with a little bit of guesswork. Thats why we get surprises. Upsets. Thats what makes the sport so enjoyable. Testing your knowlage of who should win and why and then seeing if you are right. A lot of times we get surprised.

I think I lost my point some where in that rant. Anyway, I will just close by saying prove my point about the americans being the only country in the world with at least one fighter in each weight class that could legitimately be on a top 5 list wrong. That was your original post wasnt it?

I didn't call Tanner a joke I said Baroni was a joke. As for the rest of it, I just don't agree, I won't waste my time with your post because You just don't see it. Your especially wrong about Ortiz. And the Level of competition Tanner has fought just isn't that good. Anderson Silva Has a good shot at beating him.

You just don't see it, MMA as a sport in the U.S only focuses on americans, You keep referring to the rankings being filled with americans but the Rankings ar BS. They're are fighters all over russia that would stomp many americans but nobody knows about them. Fedor came out of nowhere. Russia is notorious for having excellent fighters that knowone knows about because they fight for titles more then money, so it's hard to get popular. The U.S is just good at documenting records and making up phoney top ten lists.

You are a perect example of what I'm Talking about.

Double post.

Since September of 2002, Lil Nog has wins over Alistair Overeem, 2 wins over Nakamura, Sakuraba, Alex Steibling, Guy Mezger, and TK.


http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=2270


Since September of 2002, Tito has 2 losses which happen to be the only to great fighters he's fought in the last few years. A win over Cote, and a win over Shamrock. He put up a good fight against Belfort but he hardly won. Even if we do count the Vitor win that's half the fights Lil Nog has won.

If you actually think that Ortiz belongs ahead of Lil Nof in the Rankings, Your goiong on my ignore list.

Tanner is an excellent fighter who has only lost twice in the past 5 1/2 years.

Yes but who has he beaten in the last 5 1/2 years?

Both of thoses loses were to excellent fighters in Ortiz and Franklin.

Ortiz and Franklin are Not excellent fighters, I won't get into the semantics of it. Both those guys are overrated.

Evan Tanner just beat the crap out of who a lot of people were calling the next big thing in the middleweight divison.

Who's that, Terrell? He's 5-2, what are you talking about? A win over Lindland doesn't make you the next big thing. Or were you talking about Lawler? That would be even worse.

Anderson Silva wouldn't stand a chance against Tanner.

*Cough* Bull**** *Cough*

Also, when it comes to Ortiz, he is still a top 5 fighter. Its retarded to think anyone else should be in that position. Couture is number 1, Silva is number 2, Jackson is 3, Liddel 4 and Ortiz 5th. Maybe Nogueira or Henderson but Henderson is a natural 200 pounder, unlike Ortiz who cuts down from about 225. Nogueira could be there but he hasn't fought any of the top 5 guys. He looked great against Overeem but lost to Matyushenko who Ortiz dominated for 5 rounds. Arona has only fought against 2 top 10 light-heavy and only one top 5 fight and he lost that fight. He is 1-1 against the divisons best. Ortiz on the other hand is 5-2 against people who were top 10 at the time he fought them. Tell me why ethier of them should be ahead of Ortiz?


That's is the biggest load of trash I have read for along time. Randy ahead of Silva. I like both fighters equally but come on, Even the bias U.S rankings have Silva at Number one. Your Logic is flawed.

I guess I ended up wasting my time anyway.

Any arguement with Creed is a waste of time

I'll remember that for the future.

Its because I am right. I rarely agree with Kaps on anything MMA related but if he agrees with me about Ortiz being ahead of Arona, then you know I am right.

Your original post had americans weren't dominating the rankings. I have yet to see you come up with anything to prove that to be true. I, on the other hand, have given you my arguments. Americans have the most fighters in the top 5 and the top 10 out of all of the weight divisons. Prove me wrong.

Kaps and I have alot of the same MMA thinking while 95% of the time I disagree with you. Ortiz ahead of Arona? I don't see how he would not be. In a fight between the two I would pick Arona and honestly think he would win fairly easily but as for a ranking of the two Tito has accomplished alot more in MMA thus far.

I think putting Randy ahead of Silva is so stupid but it doesn't really matter because they are 1-2 anyway and will never fight. Randy is 3-1 at LHW while Silva is 26-3-0 and has been on top a very long time. You can't just have some newcomer to the division win some fights and be ranked above the champ. And honestly there is almost nothing that Couture could do that would have me put him above Silva short of defeating him. Silva has beat everyone they put infront of him (minus Hunt at HW) so Randy can't really beat anyone at 205 that would put him as #1. Maybe if Couture came out and utterly destroyed Hunt I would consider it. But Silva have been too dominate for too long to be ousted by a guy with 4 fights in the division. Bash his fight card all you want but he has taken out alot more than 3 good opponents in his career.

i think this wizard guy is another incarnation like money - just on topic.

http://mmafighting.com/mma/topten/5_march2005.html

How bout these rankings?

I just tend to say Sakuraba is God and then I work my way down from there.

Its because I am right. I rarely agree with Kaps on anything MMA related but if he agrees with me about Ortiz being ahead of Arona, then you know I am right.

Your original post had americans weren't dominating the rankings. I have yet to see you come up with anything to prove that to be true. I, on the other hand, have given you my arguments. Americans have the most fighters in the top 5 and the top 10 out of all of the weight divisons. Prove me wrong.

You agreeing with Kaps doesn't make you right, and you haven't proven ****. Good day.

Kaps and I have alot of the same MMA thinking while 95% of the time I disagree with you. Ortiz ahead of Arona? I don't see how he would not be. In a fight between the two I would pick Arona and honestly think he would win fairly easily but as for a ranking of the two Tito has accomplished alot more in MMA thus far.

Accomplished more in MMA, what are you talking about? So has Royce ****ing Gracie but you don't see him in the ranks because of his quality of apponents. In the last 2 years neither of the fighters have been very active. Arona, because of Prides distaste for his style and Tito, because he was being a *****. if you take a look at both fighters records another 2 years back, Arona's record is far more impressive. You follow? In the last 4 years Arona has 1 loss, and more impressive wins, were as Tito has wins of a washed up Shamrock, and some smaller apponents. I think that if you feel Tito has a better record, then you see what you want to see for the purpose of debate, or bias. This is a good example of why there are alot of Americans are high in the ranks, Because people like you take into account ancient victorys when MMA was in an earlier stage of evolution.


I think putting Randy ahead of Silva is so stupid but it doesn't really matter because they are 1-2 anyway and will never fight. Randy is 3-1 at LHW while Silva is 26-3-0 and has been on top a very long time. You can't just have some newcomer to the division win some fights and be ranked above the champ. And honestly there is almost nothing that Couture could do that would have me put him above Silva short of defeating him. Silva has beat everyone they put infront of him (minus Hunt at HW) so Randy can't really beat anyone at 205 that would put him as #1. Maybe if Couture came out and utterly destroyed Hunt I would consider it. But Silva have been too dominate for too long to be ousted by a guy with 4 fights in the division. Bash his fight card all you want but he has taken out alot more than 3 good opponents in his career.

I agree.

I really think the reasons why American fighters are not the best is cause most of them aren't fighting for the same reasons guys from Russia and Brazil are. I mean most of the fighters from these two countries used to be from the streets, they have no back-up plan if their careers don't work out.

I really think the reasons why American fighters are not the best is cause most of them aren't fighting for the same reasons guys from Russia and Brazil are. I mean most of the fighters from these two countries used to be from the streets, they have no back-up plan if their careers don't work out.


I think that motivation is what makes alot of fighters good, but it's not why americans aren't the best. Some fighters in america probably started from **** all. I think America has structured mma like boxing, and alot of the promoting and money gets fighters popularity. Everything is well documented in the states so they can prop up records because records sell tickets.

Since September of 2002, Lil Nog has wins over Alistair Overeem, 2 wins over Nakamura, Sakuraba, Alex Steibling, Guy Mezger, and TK.


http://www.sherdog.com/fightfinder/fightfinder.asp?fighterID=2270


Since September of 2002, Tito has 2 losses which happen to be the only to great fighters he's fought in the last few years. A win over Cote, and a win over Shamrock. He put up a good fight against Belfort but he hardly won. Even if we do count the Vitor win that's half the fights Lil Nog has won.

If you actually think that Ortiz belongs ahead of Lil Nof in the Rankings, Your goiong on my ignore list.

Out of all of the fighters Little Nog has beaten, only one of them is top 10, MAYBE. Ortiz has fought top level guys with some victories and some defeats. Nogueira has fought maybe one top 10 LHW and has had trouble with dominating wrestlers in the past.

Out of all of the fighters Little Nog has beaten, only one of them is top 10, MAYBE. Ortiz has fought top level guys with some victories and some defeats. Nogueira has fought maybe one top 10 LHW and has had trouble with dominating wrestlers in the past.

The only 2 "ranked" fighters tito has faught, took him to school.Vitor on the other hand, beat Tito, Tito was just awarded the victory because he was fighting in a wrestling/american biased organization. So that's one ranked fighter. Are you saying because of that small technicality Tito should be number five and lil nog shouldn't even be on the list or something. Lil Nog's victory over Saku is much more impressive to me then Tito's Sorry excuse for a win. I like Cote, be he's very underdeveloped and all he really has is that right hand.Tito couldn't finish him, he couldn't even hurt him that bad.

Tito's record reflects his skills, he isn't that great. It's common knowledge on sherdog not that it means to much. I'm not saying Lil Nog's great, but judging by the level of activity in the last few years(why look further back?) and the level of competition, Lil Nog's record is more impressive as of late.

Vitor did not beat Ortiz. Ortiz won that fight fair and square.

To be honest, I don't think I am the one that is bias here. You seem to have a hard-on for anyone thats not an american wrestler.

Vitor did not beat Ortiz. Ortiz won that fight fair and square.

To be honest, I don't think I am the one that is bias here. You seem to have a hard-on for anyone thats not an american wrestler.

Randy is one of my favorite fighters.

Accomplished more in MMA, what are you talking about? So has Royce ****ing Gracie but you don't see him in the ranks because of his quality of apponents. In the last 2 years neither of the fighters have been very active. Arona, because of Prides distaste for his style and Tito, because he was being a *****. if you take a look at both fighters records another 2 years back, Arona's record is far more impressive. You follow? In the last 4 years Arona has 1 loss, and more impressive wins, were as Tito has wins of a washed up Shamrock, and some smaller apponents. I think that if you feel Tito has a better record, then you see what you want to see for the purpose of debate, or bias. This is a good example of why there are alot of Americans are high in the ranks, Because people like you take into account ancient victorys when MMA was in an earlier stage of evolution.


Which is all Arona has. Ancient victories. Ortiz beating Belfort puts him ahead of Arona since Arona has only beat Ignashov in the past 50 years. If Ortiz has only beaten Cote than I would rank him lower but he took out Belfort......although I don't agree with the decision it was close and it goes down as a win. Ortiz was also UFC champ for many years while Arona has never won anything in MMA and many of his victories were controversial (Ninja, Mezger, Henderson). Those could easily be 3 more loses on his record. While Arona was getting some gift decision in Pride Tito was taking apart his competition in the UFC. Now they might not have been the same caliber but there were still decent. Everytime Arona has had the chance to do something big he gets injured or pulls out. You can't base rankings on potential, if they were I would be #1 at 205. Arona has better potential but hasn't proved it. Ortiz has been as far as he will go but it's still alot higher than Arona has been. End discussion.

Which is all Arona has. Ancient victories. Ortiz beating Belfort puts him ahead of Arona since Arona has only beat Ignashov in the past 50 years. If Ortiz has only beaten Cote than I would rank him lower but he took out Belfort......although I don't agree with the decision it was close and it goes down as a win. Ortiz was also UFC champ for many years while Arona has never won anything in MMA and many of his victories were controversial (Ninja, Mezger, Henderson). Those could easily be 3 more loses on his record. While Arona was getting some gift decision in Pride Tito was taking apart his competition in the UFC. Now they might not have been the same caliber but there were still decent. Everytime Arona has had the chance to do something big he gets injured or pulls out. You can't base rankings on potential, if they were I would be #1 at 205. Arona has better potential but hasn't proved it. Ortiz has been as far as he will go but it's still alot higher than Arona has been. End discussion.

I agree. I believe that Arona would win in a very boring fight between the two, but you cannot base rankings on speculation...

To be honest, I don't think I am the one that is bias here. You seem to have a hard-on for anyone thats not an american wrestler.
I think Creed has ankle-locked the correct. :boxing:

I agree. I believe that Arona would win in a very boring fight between the two, but you cannot base rankings on speculation...

Yes, you can only base them on bias dec wins!!!! *sarcasm*

Which Arona has more of....

Actually, from what I have seen of them I belive Ortiz would win. Mainly because we do have soem footage of them fighting in ADCC and Arona barely won that fight. He did win IMO, but it was razor thin. How could adding in striking and GnP possibly help Arona?

He fought Ortiz on his terms and his rules and barely won a decison. What do you think would happen if they came into MMA?

Arona has pretty decent standup, certainly on level with or above that of Ortiz and Ortiz has never impressed me with his GnP....neither has Arona. Bringing striking into the fold would only set up Arona's takedowns better.