View Full Version : Increasing strength.


jack_the_rippuh
03-21-2005, 10:43 AM
You ever wrestle with one of your friends who were about the same size as you, but they were just physically stronger than you?

How do you train for strength? How do you train for strength and not muscle, because that's what I'm more interested in. I don't really want to get all bulky, I just want to stay the way I am and become stronger, is that possible?

jeffmills
03-21-2005, 11:20 AM
Well leave the weights and do only calisthenics, including things like handstand press-ups and neck bridging(do the latter very carefully however). Add plyometrics to this.

Also do things like you mentioned above, try freestyle or greco roman wrestling.

Also chopping wood, lifting uncoventional things like logs or large rocks. A good thing to try is farmers walks, where you hold two heavey dumbells in either hand and fast walk 50m, turn then and fast walk 50m the other way.

Or get a hold of some sandbags. Grab one, run 50m, trun and run 50back, rest then repeat.

boxernyc
03-21-2005, 11:21 AM
You ever wrestle with one of your friends who were about the same size as you, but they were just physically stronger than you?

How do you train for strength? How do you train for strength and not muscle, because that's what I'm more interested in. I don't really want to get all bulky, I just want to stay the way I am and become stronger, is that possible?

Do the prison work out minus the weights. Sit ups, push-ups, squats. Use your body weight and you won't get big but you will get more cut and definitely stronger. Or you could use light weights and a lot of reps until you hit failure. I am ususally that guy that people who are pretty much the same size as me underestimate my power. I have just been doing this type of working out for many years and though I may not look very cut or big I have done it since a young age so I think the mucle is well conditioned and more importantly, I have learned how to use the muscles in a well coordinated way to get more strength than someone who may have a slightly bigger build. Please note, by no way am I saying I am a strength expert or that I am bruce lee type cut. This is just how I have trained and I have found it to be effective.

jeffmills
03-21-2005, 11:22 AM
Oh and lots of running and interval training eg.sprinting will give you plenty of explosiveness.

PunchDrunk
03-21-2005, 11:22 AM
It's certainly possible to become much stronger with a limited weigth gain. You have to stay in the low reps (1-6), and refrain from training to failure. Say you're doing 3 sets of 6 reps on a given excercise. You should actually be able to do 7 or 8 reps on the weight you're choosing for 6 reps. This limits the muscle breakdown, that is the main factor in inducing hypertrophy (excercise wise, cal intake and other factors are equally important).

PunchDrunk
03-21-2005, 11:32 AM
It's not that what you're saying is wrong.... However, bodyweight work can be just as effective for hypertrophy as barbells and dumbells. It's all about rep schemes and whether you go to failure or not. Look at olympic Gymnasts. Those guys have arms most bodybuilders would die (or shoot up) for. Generally they use only bodyweight strength training. On the other hand, if you take a look at lower weight class olympic weight lifters, they're really not that big, muscle wise, but they're STRONG!!
There's a lifter at my gym who's about 150 lbs., like me. He's taller and therefore skinnier than me, and he just squatted 352 lbs. the other day! Weightlifters never train over 6 reps (usually 1-3) and the result is great strength and limited size (remember, they compete in weight classes as well.).

pinaldino
03-21-2005, 01:25 PM
Interesting stuff, punch drunk.
A good (and 100% safe) exercise is to use water resistance in a swimming pool. Go to the shallow part of the pool, stay where the water level is about your shoulders. Then u can simulate weighlifting exercises and develop all the upper body.
The faster u move ur hands, the greater the resistance so you cannot hurt yourself and u can increase the difficulty as u progress.
also shadowbox under water can help u develop power and strength on the inside, I think the great hagler was doing it.
and there are always some nice ladies around to watch if you need motivation for the pool ;)

Rockin'
03-21-2005, 09:40 PM
You can lift weights for strength without bulking yourself up. I would actually recommend using weights. Just do high repetition with low weight. burn that muscle out man, build its endurance and build its strength. You wont get bulked up from this, your muscles will just get leaner, tighter and stronger.

The push ups and chin ups and all of that is a given, always do those..............Rockin'

pinaldino
03-22-2005, 05:50 AM
You can lift weights for strength without bulking yourself up. I would actually recommend using weights. Just do high repetition with low weight. burn that muscle out man, build its endurance and build its strength. You wont get bulked up from this, your muscles will just get leaner, tighter and stronger.

The push ups and chin ups and all of that is a given, always do those..............Rockin'

Just to make sure...what do you call high reps? like 20, 30, more?
and do you keep going until failure?

PunchDrunk
03-22-2005, 08:44 AM
You can lift weights for strength without bulking yourself up. I would actually recommend using weights. Just do high repetition with low weight. burn that muscle out man, build its endurance and build its strength. You wont get bulked up from this, your muscles will just get leaner, tighter and stronger.

The push ups and chin ups and all of that is a given, always do those..............Rockin'

If you lift weights like that, you're NOT really building any strength. Only thing you're working on is muscle endurance, and in my opinion you're better of working on heavy bags, sparring and other more boxing related stuff. That's where you get your endurance. Low weights are a waste of time for boxers. You HAVE to lift heavy (0-100% of 1RM) to get stronger. Read my earlier posts on how to do this without bulking up.

Read up on your training theory Rock... :p

IwatchBoxing
03-22-2005, 08:56 AM
Punch a boxing bag(20 min a day), do push-ups(30 a day), sit ups(30 a day?), jumping jacks(whatever), run(30 min), swim(whatever), and thats basicly it, doing that *minium* would increase your arms, legs, and give you a natural build, while harderning yourself, making you more pyshicaly fit slash stronger, you can just do the push-ups, and something esle a day (non-stoping, full 30)for two weeks to feel the differnce, got that from bootcamp(the idea), nothing big, but makes you feel alot better.

boxerman
03-23-2005, 12:55 AM
man. its just weird hearing people talk about trying to not gain size and muscle. dont get me wrong, i box and understand the dilema. however, coming from a football and track ( dabbled in bodybuilding ) background, this is a concept i am still trying to get a grip on. i also HATE the high repetition of bodyweight stuff. I do it, but HATE it.

icedog11
03-23-2005, 06:00 PM
You ever wrestle with one of your friends who were about the same size as you, but they were just physically stronger than you?

How do you train for strength? How do you train for strength and not muscle, because that's what I'm more interested in. I don't really want to get all bulky, I just want to stay the way I am and become stronger, is that possible?
The question you should ask your self is it strength you want or power they are two different things. Absolute strength is measured force ie. how much you bench press 1 rep max. Relative strenght is your 1 rep max minus your body weight. Power is the rate of aplication of strength. check out Adam Archuleta freak of trainning on dvd.this skinny kid benched more reps at his combine than most o linemen

Rockin'
03-23-2005, 06:17 PM
If you lift weights like that, you're NOT really building any strength. Only thing you're working on is muscle endurance, and in my opinion you're better of working on heavy bags, sparring and other more boxing related stuff. That's where you get your endurance. Low weights are a waste of time for boxers. You HAVE to lift heavy (0-100% of 1RM) to get stronger. Read my earlier posts on how to do this without bulking up.

Read up on your training theory Rock... :p

Im just telling you what I experienced over the two years that I was lifting and boxing. And endurance is strength in the boxing ring. Once one of these power punching guys gets tired, they are no longer powerfull. I have never read for my theorys on boxing training. It was all first hand experience and the knowledge passed on to me from the fighters and trainers before me. Just because you read something does not make it so. Read these medical books from 10 years ago, you will see many descrepancies with the thinking of today. The thoughts and discoveries of today are often found to be mislead in their thoughts with in only a few years. Go to any boxing gym and take your book with you. Discuss your findings with any knowledgable trainer and then get back with me.........Rockin'

PunchDrunk
03-24-2005, 06:22 AM
I hear where you're coming from Rock. I never said I was all theory and no practice did I? Obviously, first hand experience is important. I have first hand experience with these things. I've never been a pro fighter, but I have fought as an amateur from 1986 'till 2002, so I do have experience in the ring. Since then I've been a trainer, and unlike most trainers, I haven't just used the "this is how we used to do it" approach most trainers seem to use. To be a trainer, you have to have first hand fight experience. Check, I have that. To be a trainer, you have to have experience as a trainer. Admittedly, I have much to learn here. But the final thing you need is education. You need to know WHY the body responds to certain things the way it does, so you know when to employ it in a training plan. Most trainers (from my experience) lack this. They scoff at training theory, mostly because they don't know anything about it.
The way I see it, that is exactly why there are SO MANY TRAINING MYTHS in boxing. I certainly agree that endurance is a key factor in boxing. No one is claiming it isn't. But power is also important. If you can't punch the skin off a cup of hot chocolate, all the endurance in the world won't help you. And vice versa, of course. The fact remains, lifting heavy increases max strength, which is a prerequisite to increase power. No one who knows anything disputes this. If you take that to a knowledgable trainer, he'll already know it. They do in every other sport in the world.
I'm out there in the real world training fighters already, so I'm basically ahead of what you suggested I do. Now, I suggest you actually try reading some stuff. It won't hurt you.
May I suggest "Periodization training for sports" by Tudor O. Bompa, or maybe go to Rossboxing and ask Ross about how to increase power with weights.

PunchDrunk
03-24-2005, 07:20 AM
To clear up my point:
Experience is good.

Theoretic knowledge is good.

Experience AND theoretic knowledge beats everything. :)

Rockin'
03-24-2005, 09:10 AM
Thats all good man, I respect your opinion. But to say that lifting lighter weights will not build strength is not something that I believe. I used to shadow box every day with 3 lb weights, my strength increased as well as my endurance. If you take say 100 lbs and bench press it until you are burned out, are you telling me that you would not improve in the strength department.

I appreciate and applaud the fact that you take the time to train fighters. So you must know the same as I do that being stronger in a fight does not neccesarily mean that you will win. Aswell, lifting heavyweights will increase your body mass and weight, something that most fighters do not want to do. They would rather stay at a natural weight and fight people their size.

And tell the things to Emmanuel Steward or Bill Miller, both world class trainers, that you just said to me and then get back with me on their replys to you. Your books are good for somethings I am sure. And the knowledge and experience that I get from trainers like these is good for me. So you keep your books and I'll keep the knowledge that has been passed down to me from these great people in boxing. And we will both just do our thing...............Rockin'

spinksjinx
03-24-2005, 09:58 AM
Medicine ball throws are a great strength builder Along with Matt Fureys Hindu exercises. The medicine ball throws have made my straight and jab so much stronger.

PunchDrunk
03-24-2005, 11:03 AM
If you take 100 lbs and bench press until you're burned out will make you stronger. That is, if you've never tried bench pressing before. So yeah, it works up to a certain point. But like all training, your body adapts to it, and then you have to go higher, to get any kind of strength gain. Say you can do 15 reps first time you try bench pressing 100 lbs. If you keep doing 15 reps for 5 years, will that increase your endurance? Obviously not. So why would benching the same low weight keep making you stronger? Again,this is VERY BASIC training theory, not some kind of theoretic knowledge that will change over the years, as you've tried to claim.
And lifing heavy weights will NOT NECESSARILY increase your body weight. This all depends on HOW you train. If you do low to middle rep training (3-12 reps), and you go to failure or beyond, yes you will gain weight. But that is bodybuilding, and no strength coach in his right mind would let a fighter train like that. For strength and power for a fighter you should do low reps (1-6) and never to failure. When you do 6 reps, you should be doing it with a weight that you could really do 8 reps with, and concentrate on putting speed on the bar.
I have no idea what Emanuel Stewart or Bill Miller thinks about all this. If they feel about it the same way you do, that just goes to show that NO ONE knows everything, and that everybody can learn something new. Who's to say that they can't be wrong, or just don't have the insight in some area of training (which is an area traditionally shunned by the boxing world) You're very fortunate if you're around people like that, and is able to learn from them. But you're blind if you think they're infallible. All this is really besides the point, since they haven't really uttered their opinion on this. Until they do it's all speculation, that they'd even agree with you. :)

PunchDrunk
03-24-2005, 11:17 AM
I'm training this fighter who's at 132 lbs. He isn't very strong. SO over the summer, I started him on a strength training program. From May to August he went from 132 to 140. This was off season, so he didn't do as much training on the side as in season. He probably would have been at 135-8 if he hadn't done the weights during this period anyway. Now, come August and we start training at full steam again. From August to December he still does heavy weights 2 times a week, besides all the other training. Now the other coach at my gym is of the old school, and he was very sceptical about weights, as are most boxing coaches (because they know jack **** about actual training theory, it's all "this is how we've always done it). However, when I got this fighter in the ring, he was so much stronger than normal, and the other coach is a doubter no more. By December my guy was as low as 128 lbs. WITH the weight training, and it has improved his strength and speed in the ring. THAT is my personal experience, which is backed up by every sound training theory out there. If you haven't tried the heavy weights, done the right way, don't knock it...

Rockin'
03-24-2005, 12:11 PM
Steward and Miller know plenty about training theory, thats what they have done with their lives. You dont build champions by guessing and I highly doubt that they read books for the knowledge that they have. Hey, if the books work for you than good. But to say that these trainers dont know what they are talking about because the skill was passed to them and learned first hand is ridiculous. Your books make you feel superior, then stick with 'em, everybody has something that makes them tick. But please do not belittle these world class trainers because they may not follow your prescribed method.

All that I can say is that your the man, and the oldschool dont know ****. :) .............Rockin'

Rockin'
03-24-2005, 12:22 PM
All this is really besides the point, since they haven't really uttered their opinion on this. Until they do it's all speculation, that they'd even agree with you. :)


Tell you what punchdrunk,

I will go down and atleast see Bill because i know where he will be at. I will ask his opinion of it and get back. I dont know when I will run into Emmanuel, but when I do I will be certain to ask his opinion

Give me word for word the question that you would like me to ask them and then when I see them consider it done. I will post the reply regardless if it opposes what I may have said................Rockin'

PunchDrunk
03-24-2005, 12:49 PM
I'm certainly not belittling anybody. I'm just saying that nobody knows everything, and you don't have to know everything about lifting weights to make world champion boxers. Especially since most trainers have discouraged their boxers from using weights. Back when world class sprinters didn't lift weights, I'm sure you could make a world class sprinter without weights. Would that be possible today? No way. (not saying that you have to, now or ever, use weights to make world class boxers. Boxing is much more complex than sprinting)

Have you ever thought that maybe, just maybe, a great fighter could have been even better, if his training had been better? I'm certainly not saying that the old school doesn't know ****. They know LOADS more than I do. This is obvious, and I never claimed the opposite. I'm just saying that EVERYBODY can learn something new. If they don't know that low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power, well, then that's something they could learn to become even more masterful trainers. :)
Oh, be sure to ask the question right, don't just paint it out so they'll have to agree with you.
Here's my claim: "low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power"
As far as I've understood, your claim is this: "Low weight/lots of reps until you burn out is for strength"

Rockin'
03-24-2005, 01:00 PM
If they don't know that low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power, well, then that's something they could learn to become even more masterful trainers. :)
Oh, be sure to ask the question right, don't just paint it out so they'll have to agree with you.
Here's my claim: "low weight/high reps are for muscular endurance, and heavy weights/low reps are for strength/power"
As far as I've understood, your claim is this: "Low weight/lots of reps until you burn out is for strength"

My claim is that low weights/high reps will build strength. Obviously not the same as if they were power lifting but it will build strength.

Here is my other claim, That pure strength is not needed in boxing. Endurance is. Proper execution is.

Tommy Hearns wasnt a weight lifter and he dropped people left and right. Boxing is not about pure strength. Its about setting your man up with the shots and then letting them fly.

I fought a power lifter when I was 16 years old. Just a skinny **** with big gloves on the end of my arms. I fought this guy that was 23 years old and big time ripped. I beat the hell out of him, gave him standing 8 counts and recieved none myself. The guy actually quit boxing after that fight. I went down to the sal and they said as soon as I walked in, hey you da boy dat made calvin quit..............Rockin'

Rockin'
03-24-2005, 01:13 PM
From August to December he still does heavy weights 2 times a week, besides all the other training. Now the other coach at my gym is of the old school, and he was very sceptical about weights, as are most boxing coaches (because they know jack **** about actual training theory, it's all "this is how we've always done it)

:D ..........Rockin'

PunchDrunk
03-24-2005, 04:32 PM
My claim is that low weights/high reps will build strength. Obviously not the same as if they were power lifting but it will build strength.

Here is my other claim, That pure strength is not needed in boxing. Endurance is. Proper execution is.

Tommy Hearns wasnt a weight lifter and he dropped people left and right. Boxing is not about pure strength. Its about setting your man up with the shots and then letting them fly.

I fought a power lifter when I was 16 years old. Just a skinny **** with big gloves on the end of my arms. I fought this guy that was 23 years old and big time ripped. I beat the hell out of him, gave him standing 8 counts and recieved none myself. The guy actually quit boxing after that fight. I went down to the sal and they said as soon as I walked in, hey you da boy dat made calvin quit..............Rockin'

What do you mean by pure strength? Maximum strength? Absolute strength? Relative strength?
Relative strength and explosive strength are important to boxing. Why relative strength? Obvious. There's a reason boxing goes by weight classes. If relative strength didn't matter, weight classes wouldn't be needed. A 98 lbs guy would be able to beat a 250 lbs guy. Not in the real world. That is relative strength. Now, in a set weight class, the stronger you are the better. This should be obvious to you.
Explosive strength is just as obvious. The faster you can accelerate your fists, the harder your punches (I know, I know, you need technique, but one doesn't exclude the other, you need both!).
And please don't misunderstand, I'm not saying that these things are the only thing you need to be a good boxer. I'm fully aware that you need SKILL and ENDURANCE. Never said otherwise. What I'm saying is you need the FULL PACKAGE. Skill, endurance, power and speed. Endurance isn't power, like you seem to think. Endurance merely lets you keep the power you already have for longer in the fight.
One last thing: I never said you have to be a weight lifter to be a good fighter. I'm just saying that a good fighter might be a better fighter, if he does the right kind of weight training. Just like a good fighter who's never hit the pads in his life might become a better fighter if his trainer started using that tool in his training as well. :)

Rockin'
03-24-2005, 08:31 PM
This is my whole point on this debate. Lifting weights to improve strength is not bad, it is good. Lifting heavy weights to improve strenght is bad, not good for boxers. I dont disagree with lifting weights, I just disagree with the method and process that you suggest.

I believe that you are putting to much emphasise on the power category. Most of the best fighters in the world, when fighting with in their weight classes, dont lift heavy weights. The pull ups, the push ups and all of the cals are all that are really needed. Lifting heavy weights will increase your muscle mass as well as limiting your flexibility. Not to mention possibly requiring you to step up to another weight division.

This is the last post that I will do on the subject until I am able to ask Bill or Emmanuel about it. I welcome you to post a reply but I am done until I find the thoughts of the ones who have been there and done that for most of their lives...........Rockin'

.::EnRiQuE::.
03-24-2005, 10:26 PM
if u want to gain strength do wat i do..........push-ups with you penis. it'll get you rock hard :D

PunchDrunk
03-25-2005, 04:00 AM
This is my whole point on this debate. Lifting weights to improve strength is not bad, it is good. Lifting heavy weights to improve strenght is bad, not good for boxers. I dont disagree with lifting weights, I just disagree with the method and process that you suggest.

I believe that you are putting to much emphasise on the power category. Most of the best fighters in the world, when fighting with in their weight classes, dont lift heavy weights. The pull ups, the push ups and all of the cals are all that are really needed. Lifting heavy weights will increase your muscle mass as well as limiting your flexibility. Not to mention possibly requiring you to step up to another weight division.

This is the last post that I will do on the subject until I am able to ask Bill or Emmanuel about it. I welcome you to post a reply but I am done until I find the thoughts of the ones who have been there and done that for most of their lives...........Rockin'

Actually I think we're not that far from each other... Not every fighter needs to work heavy weights. Obviously Mike Tyson had all the power he needed. I have this welterweight who's real explosive, knockin' out people left and right. He doesn't get to touch the weights. Partly because he has a much hardere time keeping the weight off, but mostly because he needs to put his emphasis on other things, like technique.

Again, lifting heavy weights won't necessarily make you heavier, or limit your flexibility. It's all a matter of doing it the right way.

The reason why I put emphasis on the power, is not for boxing in general, but for weights in general. My point about the weights is that if you're gonna use them, use them for something you aren't already doing. To me, endurance work with weights is a waste of time, since you're already doing endurance work a thousand other ways that are more specific, and way better suited for boxing. Ie. heavybag, cals, mitts and so on.

I hope that cleared my position up a bit. :)

Rockin'
03-25-2005, 04:26 AM
Your good with me dude, we had a good and it seemed sometime heated debate, but we came through it with out throwing garbage at each other. And we both made good points on old school and new school theories. But the main thin is we kept it respectable. I commend you and myself on that......Rockin'

Rockin'
03-25-2005, 04:41 AM
maybe one day I will have the chance to referee one of your boys and meet you at a national or something. Heck, maybe in the pros. Good luck with your team man...........Rockin'

PunchDrunk
03-25-2005, 09:37 AM
Yeah, it's like fighting. Shake hands after the fight, right? :)

You'd have to referee my boys at an international event, since I'm from Denmark. :D

Actually I have 2 kids (possibly 3)going to the U19 European Championships, in August.

mickst3r
03-25-2005, 12:06 PM
http://www.strengthcats.com/JDallmusclesnotequal.htm

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

these both clearly explain that to gain strength and size you must do sets of 1 - 5 reps around 90% of ur maximum.

this type of strength trainging trains your nervous system to force you muscles to work harder without inducin hypertrophy that will increase size but not so much strengthj

quote takin from a rossboxing forum
"..Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy (common in bodybuilding) involves the growth of the sarcoplasm (fluid like substance) and non-contractile proteins that do not directly contribute to muscular force production. Filament area density decreases while cross-sectional area increases, without a significant increase in strength.

Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to an increase in myosin-acting filaments. Contractile proteins are synthesized and filament density increases (Zatsiorsky 1995). This type of hypertrophy leads to increased strength production.
Myofibrillar hypertrophy occurs due to increases in the number of myosin/actin filaments (sarcomeres) inside the cell. This leads to increased strength and size of the contractile unit of muscle."

.::EnRiQuE::.
03-25-2005, 03:04 PM
did any of you try those penis push-ups? i've gotten extra strong since i began doin those. u'll be able to carry a heavy load :bukkake:

jack_the_rippuh
03-25-2005, 04:39 PM
:mad: Yo, man, don't even bring that **** up!

I'm scarred for life thanks to abdiel. I tried that penis push-up stuff now I got this penis what leans to the side. It's broken, damnit...