View Full Version : Top 10 Most OVERRATED Fighters


0Rooster4Life0
10-13-2009, 08:22 PM
I havent Put My List Together Yet, But Would Like To Hear Some Of Yours

Dondi33O
10-13-2009, 08:27 PM
Naseem Hamed
Joe Calaghe
Rocky Marciano
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr and Jr
Just to name a few.

Ziggy Stardust
10-13-2009, 09:04 PM
I havent Put My List Together Yet, But Would Like To Hear Some Of Yours

All time or just right now lol?

PS. Every fighter gets overrated by their hardcore nuthuggers.

Poet

1SILVA
10-13-2009, 09:27 PM
I havent Put My List Together Yet, But Would Like To Hear Some Of Yours

Gerry Cooney
Zab Judah
Julio Cesar Chavez Jr
Hector camacho
Arturo Gatti
Ray mancini
Vinny Pazienza
Naseem hamed
David haye
Nigel Benn

Dynamite Kid
10-13-2009, 09:29 PM
Gerry Cooney
Zab Judah
Julio Cesar Chavez Jr
Hector camacho
Arturo Gatti
Ray mancini
Vinny Pazienza
Naseem hamed
David haye
Nigel Benn



Ray Mancini is one of my favourite fighters, he was such a warrior, that said he was very beatable and limited, terrific heart, chin and stamina though.

0Rooster4Life0
10-13-2009, 09:59 PM
All time or just right now lol?

PS. Every fighter gets overrated by their hardcore nuthuggers.

Poet


All Time =)

JAB5239
10-13-2009, 10:33 PM
Gerry Cooney
Zab Judah
Julio Cesar Chavez Jr
Hector camacho
Arturo Gatti
Ray mancini
Vinny Pazienza
Naseem hamed
David haye
Nigel Benn

I would argue both Cooney and Camacho are underrated and Paz and "Boom boom" get rated pretty much where they belong.

Panamaniac
10-13-2009, 10:35 PM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.

JAB5239
10-13-2009, 10:45 PM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Cory Spinks
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.


How are Pep, Holy or Pea overrated my friend?

Panamaniac
10-13-2009, 11:09 PM
How are Pep, Holy or Pea overrated my friend?Pep was a legendary fighter, but with a rating undeserving of a power-deficient fighter.

Holyfield (is/was) good but not as good as many would have you believe. In his prime, Tyson would chewed him up and spat him out. (Bad metaphor, given what Mike did to his ear) :D

Sweet Pea was a bore with only defensive and no offensive skills to speak of. He was strictly a counter-puncher. If the other guy didn't initiate hostilities, they would stare at each other all night long...

Ziggy Stardust
10-13-2009, 11:17 PM
Pep was a legendary fighter, but with a rating undeserving of a power-deficient fighter.

Holyfield (is/was) good but not as good as many would have you believe. In his prime, Tyson would chewed him up and spat him out. (Bad metaphor, given what Mike did to his ear) :D

Sweet Pea was a bore with only defensive and no offensive skills to speak of. He was strictly a counter-puncher. If the other guy didn't initiate hostilities, they would stare at each other all night long...

One could also say that a prime Holyfield would have dished out an even worse beating then the past-prime Holyfield gave Tyson.

Poet

mhager91490
10-13-2009, 11:20 PM
Ricardo Lopez- I think people rate him way to highly historically for someone who accomplished so little. I think it is somewhat hypocritical to rate him higher than Calzaghe because he didn't accomplish anymore if even as much. I believe the reason why people rate him so highly is due to his tidy offensive style. The only a few really good fighters on his resume most notably Rosendo Alvarez, who fought Lopez closely two times albeit with controversey about the weight and Saman Sorjaturong who went on to kind of justify himself as a good opponent by beating a faded Humberto Gonzalez. Also he never moved up and took on Carbajal, Johnson or Gonzalez. I am not saying he is a good fighter but he is remembered better than he actually was.

JAB5239
10-13-2009, 11:20 PM
Pep was a legendary fighter, but with a rating undeserving of a power-deficient fighter.

Holyfield (is/was) good but not as good as many would have you believe. In his prime, Tyson would chewed him up and spat him out. (Bad metaphor, given what Mike did to his ear) :D

Sweet Pea was a bore with only defensive and no offensive skills to speak of. He was strictly a counter-puncher. If the other guy didn't initiate hostilities, they would stare at each other all night long...

with all due respect, I see these as personal opinions that have little to do with their accomplishments.

BEEHOP
10-13-2009, 11:34 PM
Vitali Klitschko

sonnyboyx2
10-13-2009, 11:46 PM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Cory Spinks
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.


The subject says `over-rated` this is a list of ATGs

Pretty Boy Flaw
10-14-2009, 12:07 AM
Wladimir Klitschko
Roberto "No Mas" Duran
JCC
Leonard
Joe Louis
Maricano
Wilfred Benitez
Hagler
Pacman
MAB

1SILVA
10-14-2009, 12:08 AM
I would argue both Cooney and Camacho are underrated and Paz and "Boom boom" get rated pretty much where they belong.

The Camacho that fought up until the Rosario fight was an exciting, charismatic, excellent boxer. After that fight he became a runner. I was so disappointed by this, as he was on his way to greatness before that war with Rosario. It really upset me that Cooney was introduced as though he was the champion in his fight with Holmes. How could the heavyweight champ be introduced first? Cooney fought a valiant fight, but he was never a championship fighter

sonnyboyx2
10-14-2009, 12:12 AM
1/. David Tua
2/. Steve Collins
3/. Ricky Hatton
4/. David Haye
5/. Kelly Pavlik
6/. Marco Antonio Berrera
7/. Jeff Fenech
8/. Mikkel Kessler
9/. Lennox Lewis
10/.Kostya Tszyu

10 `Vastly Underated fighters`

1/. Floyd Patterson
2/. Buster Douglas
3/. Gene Tunney
4/. Michael Spinks
5/. John Conteh
6/. Muhammad Ali
7/. Evander Holyfield
8/. James Toney
9/. Emile Griffith
10/. Tony Zale

Panamaniac
10-14-2009, 02:10 AM
One could also say that a prime Holyfield would have dished out an even worse beating then the past-prime Holyfield gave Tyson.

PoetNot only could one say it, you just did. And quite well, I might add.

Clyde Barrow
10-14-2009, 02:17 AM
Wladimir Klitschko
Roberto "No Mas" Duran
JCC
Leonard
Joe Louis
Maricano
Wilfred Benitez
Hagler
Pacman
MAB

The unbolded I can see a mild complaint for. Wladimir is not overrated at all. In fact, he gets a lot of undue criticism simply due to his division being somewhat stale. And the bolded? Wow. This is nonsense. Please stop rubbishing this forum mate. It's better to keep your mouth shut and let others think you're a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Panamaniac
10-14-2009, 02:29 AM
I havent Put My List Together Yet, But Would Like To Hear Some Of Yours


with all due respect, I see these as personal opinions that have little to do with their accomplishments.I gather from the thread starter (above) that he was soliciting our personal opinion, which I gave. In fact, I'm revising my initial list (below). I'm removing Cory Spinks and inserting Lennox Lewis, instead.


In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.

Panamaniac
10-14-2009, 02:46 AM
The subject says `over-rated` this is a list of ATGs(See post #15) You think Klitschko, Spinks, Jones,Jr., Whitaker and Benitez are all time greats?

sonnyboyx2
10-14-2009, 03:01 AM
(See post #15) You think Klitschko, Spinks, Jones,Jr., Whitaker and Benitez are all time greats?

Jones jr. - Top 5 all time P4P
Whitaker - P4P No1 for a full decade
Bentiz - Youngest World Champ ever
W.Klitschko - Dominant for a decade
Spinks - 2 time champ with great skills

Panamaniac
10-14-2009, 03:03 AM
Jones jr. - Top 5 all time P4P
Whitaker - P4P No1 for a full decade
Bentiz - Youngest World Champ ever
W.Klitschko - Dominant for a decade
Spinks - 2 time champ with great skillsYou're entitled to your opinion.

Dynamite Kid
10-14-2009, 07:00 AM
Roberto Duran
Roy Jones
Hagler

Not because they were not great fighter but because of the exaggeration there is about them as fighters, Duran gets put up in the 4 ATG list above Leonard at times, Jones is considered by some as the best fighter ever even though his resume leaves a lot to be desired, Hagler gets a free pass for beating WW's while Hopkins gets hammered for it.


Underrated

McCallum
Sumbu Kalambay

mickey malone
10-14-2009, 07:23 AM
Dempsey
Johnson
Liston

All 3 are ATG's but I disagree with a lot of people who rate them top 5..

JAB5239
10-14-2009, 07:27 AM
I gather from the thread starter (above) that he was soliciting our personal opinion, which I gave. In fact, I'm revising my initial list (below). I'm removing Cory Spinks and inserting Lennox Lewis, instead.

Its all good my friend.

Ziggy Stardust
10-14-2009, 07:44 AM
Any fighter with a cult following of nuthuggers ie. Floyd Mayweather and the Klitschkos.

Poet

sonnyboyx2
10-14-2009, 07:52 AM
Dempsey
Johnson
Liston

All 3 are ATG's but I disagree with a lot of people who rate them top 5..
Your Top 10 Heavies has 5/. Lennox Lewis
ahead of Tyson, Holyfield, Frazier, Marciano, Liston
Prime 4 Prime Lewis is a 2rd KO for all those guys, if McCall and Rahman can put Lewis to sleep any one of those guys ` ends Lewis career`

Benncollinsaad
10-14-2009, 08:13 AM
Gerry Cooney
Zab Judah
Julio Cesar Chavez Jr
Hector camacho
Arturo Gatti
Ray mancini
Vinny Pazienza
Naseem hamed
David haye
Nigel Benn
:chairshot:****you:

1SILVA
10-14-2009, 09:11 AM
:chairshot:****you:

You are a funny guy. I apologize for my bias towards British fighters. I have had that bias ever since Alan minter and John Conteh

Benncollinsaad
10-14-2009, 09:17 AM
1.Lennox Lewis
2.Larry Holmes
3.Zab Judah
4.Markus Beyer
5.Ricardo Mayorga
6.George Foreman(comeback)
7.Shannon Briggs
8.Pernell Whitaker
9.Muhammed Ali
10.Hasim Rahman

Spray_resistant
10-14-2009, 09:18 AM
1.Lennox Lewis
2.Larry Holmes
3.Zab Judah
4.Markus Beyer
5.Ricardo Mayorga
6.George Foreman(comeback)
7.Shannon Briggs
8.Pernell Whitaker
9.Muhammed Ali
10.Hasim Rahman

Who is highly rating Rahman?

Benncollinsaad
10-14-2009, 09:21 AM
Who is highly rating Rahman?

Well, he WAS highly rated before. Especially when he beat Lewis.

Spray_resistant
10-14-2009, 09:24 AM
Well, he WAS highly rated before. Especially when he beat Lewis.

I always thought it was a fluke and it was proven to be so months later when Lewis was actually paying attention that time around.....I have never heard anyone personally who was on their soapbox going on about how great Rahman was.

TheGreatA
10-14-2009, 09:40 AM
Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor
Sandy Saddler

Benncollinsaad
10-14-2009, 10:15 AM
Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor
Sandy Saddler

How the hell was Dempsey overated??

Stoppage
10-14-2009, 10:38 AM
Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor
Sandy Saddler

I agree with Pryor. Also, with Dempsey.

He was a great fighter but I've seen him in some top 10 all-time great lists. That, to me, is ridiculous.

1SILVA
10-14-2009, 10:43 AM
Jack Dempsey
Aaron Pryor
Sandy Saddler

Saddler beat Pep three out of four times. Does that make Pep overrated as well? A lot of fighters ducked Pryor during his era

TheGreatA
10-14-2009, 11:24 AM
How the hell was Dempsey overated??

He is rated top 10 p4p by many. I just don't see it.

Saddler beat Pep three out of four times. Does that make Pep overrated as well? A lot of fighters ducked Pryor during his era

People look far too much into the Pep fights. He may have gotten the best of Pep (after Pep nearly died in a plane crash), by questionable methods in my opinion (except in the first fight), but he wasn't better than Pep.

I don't agree about a lot of fighters ducking Pryor. Jim Watt may have but that was about it. He himself screwed up potential fights with Leonard, Duran and he did eventually get a huge fight against Arguello, a fight after which he went onto ruin his career with drugs.

How does Pryor rate over Thomas Hearns for example? He has two notable wins, an ancient Antonio Cervantes and Arguello in his 4th weight class.

sonnyboyx2
10-14-2009, 12:06 PM
I always thought it was a fluke and it was proven to be so months later when Lewis was actually paying attention that time around.....I have never heard anyone personally who was on their soapbox going on about how great Rahman was.
its quite amazing how these excuses come out time and again for the twice Lewis got Poleaxed..
1/. He was under-trained
2/. he was making a movie so not focused
3/. it was a lucky punch
4/. the referee stopped it to quickly
5/. Lewis never trained properly
6/. it was a lucky shot McCall had his eyes closed
7/. he was not paying attention
8/. etc
9/. etc
10/. etc

Benncollinsaad
10-14-2009, 12:29 PM
its quite amazing how these excuses come out time and again for the twice Lewis got Poleaxed..
1/. He was under-trained
2/. he was making a movie so not focused
3/. it was a lucky punch
4/. the referee stopped it to quickly
5/. Lewis never trained properly
6/. it was a lucky shot McCall had his eyes closed
7/. he was not paying attention
8/. etc
9/. etc
10/. etc
I know, it annoys me. He got ktfo by Rahman, get over it.

Dynamite Kid
10-14-2009, 01:21 PM
People make just as many excuses for Tyson's losses. Tyson lost to Douglas and Holyfield. Holyfield who was older than him, been in many wars but still beat him up.

1SILVA
10-14-2009, 01:43 PM
He is rated top 10 p4p by many. I just don't see it.



People look far too much into the Pep fights. He may have gotten the best of Pep (after Pep nearly died in a plane crash), by questionable methods in my opinion (except in the first fight), but he wasn't better than Pep.

I don't agree about a lot of fighters ducking Pryor. Jim Watt may have but that was about it. He himself screwed up potential fights with Leonard, Duran and he did eventually get a huge fight against Arguello, a fight after which he went onto ruin his career with drugs.

How does Pryor rate over Thomas Hearns for example? He has two notable wins, an ancient Antonio Cervantes and Arguello in his 4th weight class.

Hearns would have ko'd Pryor in the pros because of the size differential. I would have loved to have seen a Pryor-Duran fight.

1SILVA
10-14-2009, 01:45 PM
He is rated top 10 p4p by many. I just don't see it.



People look far too much into the Pep fights. He may have gotten the best of Pep (after Pep nearly died in a plane crash), by questionable methods in my opinion (except in the first fight), but he wasn't better than Pep.

I don't agree about a lot of fighters ducking Pryor. Jim Watt may have but that was about it. He himself screwed up potential fights with Leonard, Duran and he did eventually get a huge fight against Arguello, a fight after which he went onto ruin his career with drugs.

How does Pryor rate over Thomas Hearns for example? He has two notable wins, an ancient Antonio Cervantes and Arguello in his 4th weight class.

You have to admit the first fight with Arguello, any other 140 pounder that night would have been ko'd by Alexis. Arguello hit Pryor with some hellacious shots that night

JB16
10-14-2009, 01:46 PM
Hearns would have ko'd Pryor in the pros because of the size differential. I would have loved to have seen a Pryor-Duran fight.

Pryor claims the reason that him and Duran never fought was, when Panama Lewis got with him he made Pryor promise that he would never agree to fight Duran because he had, had a baby to Duran's sister, and Pryor kept to his promise.

elgaringo
10-14-2009, 02:00 PM
Wladimir Klitschko
Roberto "No Mas" Duran
JCC
Leonard
Joe Louis
Maricano
Wilfred Benitez
Hagler
Pacman
MAB

Again a list of ATG fighters that achieved soooo much. sad really that you could think they're overrated!

TheGreatA
10-14-2009, 02:15 PM
You have to admit the first fight with Arguello, any other 140 pounder that night would have been ko'd by Alexis. Arguello hit Pryor with some hellacious shots that night

Any other 140 pounder in the division at the time maybe, but not all-time. Alexis wasn't at his best at 140 pounds.

Benncollinsaad
10-14-2009, 02:36 PM
Does anybody think Trinidad is overated?

1SILVA
10-14-2009, 03:24 PM
Any other 140 pounder in the division at the time maybe, but not all-time. Alexis wasn't at his best at 140 pounds.

No, he wasn't, but that night he hit Pryor as hard as he ever hit anyone in his entire career. Just four months earlier he knocked out welterweight Kevin Rooney with one shot. Arguello, like Hearns and Pacquaio, carried his power with him as he went up in weight. Alexis was at his best at 130.

Mersey
10-14-2009, 03:24 PM
its quite amazing how these excuses come out time and again for the twice Lewis got Poleaxed..
1/. He was under-trained
2/. he was making a movie so not focused
3/. it was a lucky punch
4/. the referee stopped it to quickly
5/. Lewis never trained properly
6/. it was a lucky shot McCall had his eyes closed
7/. he was not paying attention
8/. etc
9/. etc
10/. etc

Nice 8, 9 and 10 :rofl:

:moon:

DeepSleep
10-14-2009, 06:34 PM
Joe Calzaghe comes to mind; when your entire career is defined by beating two fighters who were in their prime 10 years ago it speaks volumes about your quality of work.

Princemanspopa
10-14-2009, 06:37 PM
1.) Joe Frazier - Entire legacy based off of one win over one past his prime fighter who lost to ring rust,and then two decisive losses to the very same man and two beat downs by the only puncher he ever faced and that's his legacy.Failed to fight the top heavyweights of his era,ducked virtually every puncher of his era and the two times that he did,he got put down eight times.Gets ranked in a position that he clearly isn't deserving of,

2.) Roberto Duran - Supposedly one of the most dominant champions of all time and yet failed to defend his title against the greatest contenders on a consistent basis,padded record consisting of no hopers and lost to bums like Kirkland Laing and Robbie Simms.There's an excuse for ever loss he ever suffered but the cold hard truth is that he just wasn't as good as his fanboys claimed.

3.) Aaron Pryor - Entire legacy is written by the newbs who watched HBO's legendary night series and bought into the stupid myths and lies such as Leonard and Hearns ducking this man.His resume is piss poor,with two wins over faded champions such as Cervantes and Arguello.He isn't p4p material and he isn't even the greatest in his own division,very overrated fighter.

4.) Gene Fullmer - Very similar situation with Frazier,entire legacy based off of two wins over Sugar Ray Robinson,who was a good five years past his prime the first time they fought.Two wins over a welterweight who was never an impressive middleweightt and he probably used his head more than he did his hands in those fights.Met Mr Dick Tiger and boy did he get a wake up call.His style woudl fail miserably today,not so much because he was a one dimensional brawler,but because no legitimate official would tolerate his dirty tactics.

5.) James Toney - Very few fighters have as much of a padded record,benifited from so many gift decisions and recieved more chances than his fat slob,who at one time actually did have talent.His knockout victory over Michael Nunn is where his legacy started and where it ended.The greatest fighter he ever fought beat him on a landslide,it wasn't competitive,it wasn't close,Toney was brought in a glorified sparring partner and he got clowned.



Five will do for now.

Mugwump
10-14-2009, 07:10 PM
I never fail to be surprised at the ability of NSB posters to separate words from meaning.

Calzaghe and Haye are OVERRATED? Since when? For years the former was known as "Stay at home Joe" and when he finally arrived in the States his victories were written off as meaningless because his opponents were old men.

As for David Haye, even his biggest fans didn't have him as favourite going in to either Klitschko bout.

Princemanspopa
10-14-2009, 09:13 PM
6.) Salvador Sanchez - Harsh but true,his career and life ended unfortunately at the young age of 23,but his accomplishments and victories have been overblown to great porportions since his death,he wasn't that much of an accomplished fighter,certainly no great as he never had the chance to prove as such.His two greatest wins are over Wilfredo Gomez,a super bantamweight who was untested as a featherweight and a very young,very green Azumah Nelson,and at the time it wasn't a great win as Nelson had proven nothing at the time.Nelson despite his loss,will go down as the greater,more accomplished fighter in history

7.) Joe Louis - Devoid of a serious threat to his prime for the most part,most of the top challengers consisted of one dimensional slobs who were just made for Joe Louis.He met a faded counter puncher,near enough his prime and got taken to school and beaten down and out into submission,Louis would gain revenge but one can learn alot more from eleven rounds than they can one round.Twenty five successful title defenses and two black men.

8.) Marco Antonio Barrera - A very smart,calculated man and that played through into his boxing career,his greatest win was against Naseem Hamed,whom he waited three years before finally signing the contract,at this point Hamed was a shell of his former self.Dispathced in a mismatch against Pacquiao and fought to survive in the rematch.Barrera was knocked out by unhearalded Junio Jones who's chin had been found out by two journeymen in John Jackson and Darrly Pickney,so his chin was most certainly suspect and quitting against Amir Khan,you have to question his heart.

9.) Terry Norris - What do Ray Leonard,Meldrick Taylor,Donald Curry and John Mugabi have in common? Why they all happened to be washed up and they all happen to be Terry Norris's greatest wins.Never has a fighter ever benefited from a legacy of washed up victims as Terry Norris has.He attempted to add Simon Brown to his list of old timers but Terry Norris was exposed as having a glass jaw and suffered a humiliating defeat.Norris would fight just one top fighter in his prime and he would get knocked out in just the second round.

10.) Manny Pacquiao - Supposedly boxing's current p4p best and unfortunately many of the mainstream media agree with this.Many have spoken of Pacquiao's develoment as a fighter,how he has been able to develop his right hand to be as effective as his left hand,how he has matured into a smarter fighter who doesn't throw caution to the wind,tho they have neglected to mention Pacquiao's greatest development,and that is his match making ability.Pacquiao was exposed badly against a washed up Erik Morales,who still possesed enough left to expose Pacquiao as badly as he did,Pacquiao would beat a shot Erik Morales twice later on but not before Zahir Raheem was able to do so.Pacquiao was exposed in both fights with Juan Manuel Marquez,Marquez was knocked down three times in just one round but was able to come back and score a draw and was blatantly robbed in the rematch.Wins over a shot,washed up,weight drained Oscar De La Hoya and a overrated,faded Ricky Hatton do not confirm this mans greatness,rather expose how carefully matched he was

Bushidō
10-15-2009, 01:57 AM
1.) Joe Frazier - Entire legacy based off of one win over one past his prime fighter who lost to ring rust,and then two decisive losses to the very same man and two beat downs by the only puncher he ever faced and that's his legacy.Failed to fight the top heavyweights of his era,ducked virtually every puncher of his era and the two times that he did,he got put down eight times.Gets ranked in a position that he clearly isn't deserving of,

2.) Roberto Duran - Supposedly one of the most dominant champions of all time and yet failed to defend his title against the greatest contenders on a consistent basis,padded record consisting of no hopers and lost to bums like Kirkland Laing and Robbie Simms.There's an excuse for ever loss he ever suffered but the cold hard truth is that he just wasn't as good as his fanboys claimed.

3.) Aaron Pryor - Entire legacy is written by the newbs who watched HBO's legendary night series and bought into the stupid myths and lies such as Leonard and Hearns ducking this man.His resume is piss poor,with two wins over faded champions such as Cervantes and Arguello.He isn't p4p material and he isn't even the greatest in his own division,very overrated fighter.

4.) Gene Fullmer - Very similar situation with Frazier,entire legacy based off of two wins over Sugar Ray Robinson,who was a good five years past his prime the first time they fought.Two wins over a welterweight who was never an impressive middleweightt and he probably used his head more than he did his hands in those fights.Met Mr Dick Tiger and boy did he get a wake up call.His style woudl fail miserably today,not so much because he was a one dimensional brawler,but because no legitimate official would tolerate his dirty tactics.

5.) James Toney - Very few fighters have as much of a padded record,benifited from so many gift decisions and recieved more chances than his fat slob,who at one time actually did have talent.His knockout victory over Michael Nunn is where his legacy started and where it ended.The greatest fighter he ever fought beat him on a landslide,it wasn't competitive,it wasn't close,Toney was brought in a glorified sparring partner and he got clowned.



Five will do for now.

is this a real list?

JAB5239
10-15-2009, 02:07 AM
is this a real list?

It's a really idiotic list.

mickey malone
10-15-2009, 02:38 AM
Your Top 10 Heavies has 5/. Lennox Lewis
ahead of Tyson, Holyfield, Frazier, Marciano, Liston
Prime 4 Prime Lewis is a 2rd KO for all those guys, if McCall and Rahman can put Lewis to sleep any one of those guys ` ends Lewis career`
I don't allow personal feelings to interupt my train of thought.. The facts are, that Lewis had 2 defeats & 1 draw that were efficiently avenged..
Dempsey was unable to avenge Tunney, Frazier was unable to avenge Foreman, Liston was unable to avenge Ali, Foreman never avenged Young & so on... Lewis is no5 for me whether you like it or not...

blacklodge
10-15-2009, 02:59 AM
I think this is reliant upon who is doing the rating, under or over. Oscar De La Hoya, for example, is simultaniously overrated and underrated. The so-called casual boxing fan usually vastly, cosmically overrates him. At the same time, it's been my perception that the so-called hardcore boxing fans tend to underrate him. I was booted off an unnamed boxing message board for daring to state to the meathead haters that DLH fought a lot of good fighters and beat most of them. He's far, far from SRR, but he qualifies as a great, I think.
A similar but opposite phenominon is Mike McCallum. Utterly ignored by the casuals, but overrated by the hardcores, I think. I rate by accomplishment more than skill set. Who ducks who has to be tossed as well. How can we really know? That said, his opposition at 154 was mainly mediocre with a sprinkling of Julian Jackson and the lost Donald Curry (A fight that I think he was losing at the time of the KO, if memory serves). I don't consider Ayub Kalule to be a great win for SRL (who does?), so it's not special for McCallum either. He moved up, and lost to every elite level fighter he fought. How anyone can rate him as the greatest 154er of all time over Terry Norris is beyond me. And speaking of Norris, can we start talking about Paul Vaden and Vincent Pettway, just to name a couple, instead of SRL and Meldrick Taylor? He beat good fighters in their prime, actually, not just washed up former greats.

STILL_DETOX
10-15-2009, 03:21 AM
tyson,marciano,calzaghe

gibo
10-15-2009, 03:38 AM
I think this is reliant upon who is doing the rating, under or over. Oscar De La Hoya, for example, is simultaniously overrated and underrated. The so-called casual boxing fan usually vastly, cosmically overrates him. At the same time, it's been my perception that the so-called hardcore boxing fans tend to underrate him. I was booted off an unnamed boxing message board for daring to state to the meathead haters that DLH fought a lot of good fighters and beat most of them. He's far, far from SRR, but he qualifies as a great, I think.
A similar but opposite phenominon is Mike McCallum. Utterly ignored by the casuals, but overrated by the hardcores, I think. I rate by accomplishment more than skill set. Who ducks who has to be tossed as well. How can we really know? That said, his opposition at 154 was mainly mediocre with a sprinkling of Julian Jackson and the lost Donald Curry (A fight that I think he was losing at the time of the KO, if memory serves). I don't consider Ayub Kalule to be a great win for SRL (who does?), so it's not special for McCallum either. He moved up, and lost to every elite level fighter he fought. How anyone can rate him as the greatest 154er of all time over Terry Norris is beyond me. And speaking of Norris, can we start talking about Paul Vaden and Vincent Pettway, just to name a couple, instead of SRL and Meldrick Taylor? He beat good fighters in their prime, actually, not just washed up former greats.
if you claimed dlh to be anything above underated, you deserved to have been booted off! true boxing fans have realized that joya was a circus act. and non-boxing fans haven't figured out how they got taken into the ponzi scheme!

blacklodge
10-15-2009, 04:06 AM
You see, I'm glad you responded like that in order to provide an example of the mentality I was talking about. I didn't say everyone has to adore or even like him. I don't. But I'm not a hater either. A true boxing fan should realize that at the center of the circus was beating Quartey, Vargas, getting a perhaps undesereved decision over Whitaker, getting deservedly robbed of a Trinidad win, robbed of a Mosely win in their 2nd fight, beating Oba Carr, John John Molina (I scored it a draw), Genero Hernandez, Rafael Ruelas, Miguel Angel Gonzalez, and so forth. He fought some high quality opposition. More importantly, he took risks. He fought Hopkins. He lost badly, but he took the fight. If you want to talk about ponzi schemes, look no further than Floyd Mayweather or a post-Toney Roy Jones. Pernell Whitaker had a little pocket of unimpressive opposition (other than McGirt II) post-Chavez and pre-DLH as well.
Y'know, I understand. Girls screaming, that goofy record he cut, the commercials, the spectacles, the smiley yes man. But really, do you honestly think his whole career was a sham? Or do you just personally dislike him?

sonnyboyx2
10-15-2009, 04:10 AM
some unbelievable comments on this topic..
we should just close the forum and agree that every guy who ever laced a pair of gloves on was Sh*t

blacklodge
10-15-2009, 04:18 AM
some unbelievable comments on this topic..
we should just close the forum and agree that every guy who ever laced a pair of gloves on was Sh*t

Best post ever.

0Rooster4Life0
10-15-2009, 05:27 AM
This Thread Was good to see where Some Of You Guys Stand, it isvery Interesting and many Views i didnt see coming.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 06:40 AM
I think this is reliant upon who is doing the rating, under or over. Oscar De La Hoya, for example, is simultaniously overrated and underrated. The so-called casual boxing fan usually vastly, cosmically overrates him. At the same time, it's been my perception that the so-called hardcore boxing fans tend to underrate him. I was booted off an unnamed boxing message board for daring to state to the meathead haters that DLH fought a lot of good fighters and beat most of them. He's far, far from SRR, but he qualifies as a great, I think.
A similar but opposite phenominon is Mike McCallum. Utterly ignored by the casuals, but overrated by the hardcores, I think. I rate by accomplishment more than skill set. Who ducks who has to be tossed as well. How can we really know? That said, his opposition at 154 was mainly mediocre with a sprinkling of Julian Jackson and the lost Donald Curry (A fight that I think he was losing at the time of the KO, if memory serves). I don't consider Ayub Kalule to be a great win for SRL (who does?), so it's not special for McCallum either. He moved up, and lost to every elite level fighter he fought. How anyone can rate him as the greatest 154er of all time over Terry Norris is beyond me. And speaking of Norris, can we start talking about Paul Vaden and Vincent Pettway, just to name a couple, instead of SRL and Meldrick Taylor? He beat good fighters in their prime, actually, not just washed up former greats.

You mention Paul Vaden and Vincent Pettway for Norris, but not David Braxton, Milton McCrory, Luigi Minchillo, Sean Mannion for McCallum? Along with wins over Julian Jackson, Donald Curry and Ayub Kalule that's a better resume than Norris's at 154. At the end of his 154 run McCallum's record was 32 wins, 29 by KO, no losses.

Here's what happened to Norris against the best, prime light middleweight he ever fought:

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Here's what McCallum did to him:

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And no, he did not lose to every elite fighter he faced after moving up. He went 1-1 with Kalambay, 0-1-1 with Toney in two controversial bouts (I don't even count the third fight) and lost to Roy Jones when he was absolutely ancient. He also scored wins over Michael Watson, Herol Graham, Steve Collins and Jeff Harding.

I'd like to know what Norris ever did after moving up. Actually he never did.

Dynamite Kid
10-15-2009, 07:14 AM
You can make a case for Norris having a better record than McCallum at 154, although its debatable, but its quite clear who was the better fighter imo. McCallum.

Norris probably would of been the better fighter if he had better chin.

blacklodge
10-15-2009, 07:59 AM
You mention Paul Vaden and Vincent Pettway for Norris, but not David Braxton, Milton McCrory, Luigi Minchillo, Sean Mannion for McCallum? Along with wins over Julian Jackson, Donald Curry and Ayub Kalule that's a better resume than Norris's at 154. At the end of his 154 run McCallum's record was 32 wins, 29 by KO, no losses.
And no, he did not lose to every elite fighter he faced after moving up. He went 1-1 with Kalambay, 0-1-1 with Toney in two controversial bouts (I don't even count the third fight) and lost to Roy Jones when he was absolutely ancient. He also scored wins over Michael Watson, Herol Graham, Steve Collins and Jeff Harding.

I'd like to know what Norris ever did after moving up. Actually he never did.

I was pointing out that Terry Norris did more than just beat washed up vets like SRL, Curry, Taylor and Mugabi (was Mugabi that washed up anyway?), which seems to be the common manner he gets knocked down a peg. But since you pointed it out, I rank Vaden and Pettway as higher opposition than Braxton, Mannion, Minchillo and McCroy. Toss in Jorge Castro, Carl Daniels, Jorge Vaca, Gilbert Baptist (twice), Simon Brown (KO'd bad, but dominated the rematch, after which did we need a rubber match?), Maurice Blocker, Quincy Taylor, etc., and coupled with the amount of time he was champion and his defenses the body of work adds up to a better resume than McCallum at 154.
I don't have to counter that he lost to every elite fighter he faced after moving up, because you pointed it out yourself. Lost to Kalambay, and if I recall their rematch was years later. Lost to Toney in their rematch. Lost to Jones. Do you consider Collins, Harding, Watson and Graham to be elite fighters? I don't. I also don't find fault in staying in a division and dominating for the majority of a career, as Norris did (I'm more impressed with Hopkins' defenses at 160 than beating Tarver, Wright and Pavlik). I grant that McCallum's win over Jackson is more impressive than any one Norris win (In retrospect, mind you. Retrospect should also alter the quality of the Curry win), but it's about a body of work as opposed to a single fight.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 08:19 AM
I was pointing out that Terry Norris did more than just beat washed up vets like SRL, Curry, Taylor and Mugabi (was Mugabi that washed up anyway?), which seems to be the common manner he gets knocked down a peg. But since you pointed it out, I rank Vaden and Pettway as higher opposition than Braxton, Mannion, Minchillo and McCroy. Toss in Jorge Castro, Carl Daniels, Jorge Vaca, Gilbert Baptist (twice), Simon Brown (KO'd bad, but dominated the rematch, after which did we need a rubber match?), Maurice Blocker, Quincy Taylor, etc., and coupled with the amount of time he was champion and his defenses the body of work adds up to a better resume than McCallum at 154.
I don't have to counter that he lost to every elite fighter he faced after moving up, because you pointed it out yourself. Lost to Kalambay, and if I recall their rematch was years later. Lost to Toney in their rematch. Lost to Jones. Do you consider Collins, Harding, Watson and Graham to be elite fighters? I don't. I also don't find fault in staying in a division and dominating for the majority of a career, as Norris did (I'm more impressed with Hopkins' defenses at 160 than beating Tarver, Wright and Pavlik). I grant that McCallum's win over Jackson is more impressive than any one Norris win (In retrospect, mind you. Retrospect should also alter the quality of the Curry win), but it's about a body of work as opposed to a single fight.

What makes Pettway and Vaden better than the names I brought up? Because they held an IBF belt? Saying Norris didn't just beat washed up vets and bringing up those two names as proof works against your argument. They are not recognized by anyone as elite fighters.

Gilbert Baptist? Jorge Vaca? Carl Daniels? Quincy Taylor? The latter three may have held some type of title belts but none of them were impressive fighters. Baptist was a journeyman.

Can you imagine how Terry Norris would have done against Toney, Jones, Kalambay, Watson, Harding, etc.? I can't see him standing much of a chance. The McCallum-Toney fights are debated to this day, neither man had a clear advantage, and bringing up the loss against Jones is just silly. He was 40, Norris was done at 29. I'm not here to bring up his losses against Mullings, Rosenblatt and Boudouani though.

Now I agree that Norris might have had a more extensive resume at 154 but his top wins aren't all too impressive, not to mention that he was blown out in two (by Jackson) and four rounds (by Brown) close to his prime. McCallum never lost at the weight.

Unlike you I don't rate Hopkins's 160 reign as too impressive. To me it's about fighting the best, not about fighting mediocrities and belt holders.

blacklodge
10-15-2009, 09:11 AM
What makes Pettway and Vaden better than the names I brought up? Because they held an IBF belt? Saying Norris didn't just beat washed up vets and bringing up those two names as proof works against your argument. They are not recognized by anyone as elite fighters.

Gilbert Baptist? Jorge Vaca? Carl Daniels? Quincy Taylor? The latter three may have held some type of title belts but none of them were impressive fighters. Baptist was a journeyman.

Can you imagine how Terry Norris would have done against Toney, Jones, Kalambay, Watson, Harding, etc.? I can't see him standing much of a chance. The McCallum-Toney fights are debated to this day, neither man had a clear advantage, and bringing up the loss against Jones is just silly. He was 40, Norris was done at 29. I'm not here to bring up his losses against Mullings, Rosenblatt and Boudouani though.

Now I agree that Norris might have had a more extensive resume at 154 but his top wins aren't all too impressive, not to mention that he was blown out in two (by Jackson) and four rounds (by Brown) close to his prime. McCallum never lost at the weight.

Unlike you I don't rate Hopkins's 160 reign as too impressive. To me it's about fighting the best, not about fighting mediocrities and belt holders.

Vaden and Pettway aren't elite fighters historically,and I don't want to imply that. But they were very good, elite for the mid-90s 154ers, and Norris dominated them. Again, I think fighters like them are more relevant to his resume than SRL, etc. The other guys like Castro and Daniels are just as good opposition as Mannion and McCroy, I think. I can't think of a quality fighter at 154 that passed through that Norris didn't fight, for better or for worse, between Jackson moving up and the arrival of David Reid and Fernando Vargas. McCallum hung around at 154 for less than 3 years, and when he did move up it's not like he took on the likes of Hearns, Barkley, Nunn, Benn, Eubanks, or even Olajide. If fighting the best of the best is what you're banking greatness on, then McCallum is not your man.
Don't get me wrong, head-to-head, McCallum beats Norris. Bringing up the fighters McCallum lost to was in no way a comparison or in context with Norris. I was referring to how he tends to be overrated as a ATG. I was referring to Kalambay and Toney (I think they split those fights), and you brought up Jones.
I find sitting champions to be very impressive, and it shouldn't deflate their legacy if they don't move up. Also, saying Norris is the best 154er isn't exactly a huge compliment. Kind of a weak division. Just a notch above declaring Holyfield to be the greatest cruiserweight of all time.

Dynamite Kid
10-15-2009, 09:33 AM
when he did move up it's not like he took on the likes of Hearns, Barkley, Nunn, Benn, Eubanks, or even Olajide.

I dont understand where you are going with this bit.

Kalambay gave Barkley a Boxing lesson!! he was also a better fighter than Benn & Eubank. McCallum also beat Collins whom beat both Benn and Eubank, he also beat Watson whom beat Benn & gave Eubank life and death twice.

Kalambay was an elite fighter, Eubank, Benn & Olajide were not.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 09:42 AM
Vaden and Pettway aren't elite fighters historically,and I don't want to imply that. But they were very good, elite for the mid-90s 154ers, and Norris dominated them. Again, I think fighters like them are more relevant to his resume than SRL, etc. The other guys like Castro and Daniels are just as good opposition as Mannion and McCroy, I think. I can't think of a quality fighter at 154 that passed through that Norris didn't fight, for better or for worse, between Jackson moving up and the arrival of David Reid and Fernando Vargas. McCallum hung around at 154 for less than 3 years, and when he did move up it's not like he took on the likes of Hearns, Barkley, Nunn, Benn, Eubanks, or even Olajide. If fighting the best of the best is what you're banking greatness on, then McCallum is not your man.
Don't get me wrong, head-to-head, McCallum beats Norris. Bringing up the fighters McCallum lost to was in no way a comparison or in context with Norris. I was referring to how he tends to be overrated as a ATG. I was referring to Kalambay and Toney (I think they split those fights), and you brought up Jones.
I find sitting champions to be very impressive, and it shouldn't deflate their legacy if they don't move up. Also, saying Norris is the best 154er isn't exactly a huge compliment. Kind of a weak division. Just a notch above declaring Holyfield to be the greatest cruiserweight of all time.

:thinking:

Indeed he didn't, he took on better fighters than that. Nunn is the only real name he didn't fight but he did fight Toney who beat Nunn. I'm afraid Hearns, Benn and Eubank wanted nothing to do with him. Barkley and Olajide would have been no contest.

If he split fights with Toney and Kalambay then he hardly lost to every elite fighter he ever faced, did he?

I don't think I can convince you about McCallum because you have a different idea of what a fighter should do in order to pursue greatness. I don't think sitting on your title and dominating a rather weak group of boxers is it. And it's not like Norris was as dominant as Hopkins was during his reign although he did fight better opponents, in my opinion.

mrboxer
10-15-2009, 09:51 AM
1.) Joe Frazier - Entire legacy based off of one win over one past his prime fighter who lost to ring rust,and then two decisive losses to the very same man and two beat downs by the only puncher he ever faced and that's his legacy.Failed to fight the top heavyweights of his era,ducked virtually every puncher of his era and the two times that he did,he got put down eight times.Gets ranked in a position that he clearly isn't deserving of,

2.) Roberto Duran - Supposedly one of the most dominant champions of all time and yet failed to defend his title against the greatest contenders on a consistent basis,padded record consisting of no hopers and lost to bums like Kirkland Laing and Robbie Simms.There's an excuse for ever loss he ever suffered but the cold hard truth is that he just wasn't as good as his fanboys claimed.

3.) Aaron Pryor - Entire legacy is written by the newbs who watched HBO's legendary night series and bought into the stupid myths and lies such as Leonard and Hearns ducking this man.His resume is piss poor,with two wins over faded champions such as Cervantes and Arguello.He isn't p4p material and he isn't even the greatest in his own division,very overrated fighter.

4.) Gene Fullmer - Very similar situation with Frazier,entire legacy based off of two wins over Sugar Ray Robinson,who was a good five years past his prime the first time they fought.Two wins over a welterweight who was never an impressive middleweightt and he probably used his head more than he did his hands in those fights.Met Mr Dick Tiger and boy did he get a wake up call.His style woudl fail miserably today,not so much because he was a one dimensional brawler,but because no legitimate official would tolerate his dirty tactics.

5.) James Toney - Very few fighters have as much of a padded record,benifited from so many gift decisions and recieved more chances than his fat slob,who at one time actually did have talent.His knockout victory over Michael Nunn is where his legacy started and where it ended.The greatest fighter he ever fought beat him on a landslide,it wasn't competitive,it wasn't close,Toney was brought in a glorified sparring partner and he got clowned.



Five will do for now. frazier,duran,fullmer and toney are overrated,pryor i think did enough to be an atg in his division:boxing:

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 09:53 AM
frazier is probably the most overrated boxer ever,duran is in a close second,fullmer is also overrated along with toney,but i think aaron pryor did enough to gain a atg in his division,after he beat arguello he came back and fought a tough 15 round war and got the decision against nicky furlano,after that win against furlano no one wanted to tangle with him,leonard,mancini,hearns,benitez,duran,hagler,al l declined:boxing:

That's right, all of those boxers were overrated except Aaron Pryor who had wins over Alexis Arguello and Nicky Furlano as well as imaginary wins over every boxer who ever fought because they ducked him (although they actually didn't).

Dynamite Kid
10-15-2009, 10:04 AM
Pryor did not look good against nicky furlano imo.

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 04:08 PM
That's right, all of those boxers were overrated except Aaron Pryor who had wins over Alexis Arguello and Nicky Furlano as well as imaginary wins over every boxer who ever fought because they ducked him (although they actually didn't).

As much as I think how great Sugar Ray Leonard is, I think he ducked Pryor.

Benncollinsaad
10-15-2009, 04:10 PM
Pryor did not look good against nicky furlano imo.

Again with this Furlano guy!:rolleyes: He was a nobody. You guys have the tenacity to say Eddie Mustafa was nobody of importance, yet you pull out this Furlano guy!

Princemanspopa
10-15-2009, 04:28 PM
As much as I think how great Sugar Ray Leonard is, I think he ducked Pryor.

Go ahead and explain why you think Sugar Ray Leonard ducked Aaron Pryor and do so without using HBO legendary nights as a source

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 04:46 PM
Go ahead and explain why you think Sugar Ray Leonard ducked Aaron Pryor and do so without using HBO legendary nights as a source

That's the only available footage that I know of which can help show that Leonard ducked Pryor. I also believe that Leonard was interviewed once and said that Pryor was too much of a risk but I can't confirm this.

There was no reason why he shouldn't have fought Pryor. Pryor had a good name and was a respected champion in another weight class. He was even willing to come up to Leonard's division in order to face him.

Say what you want but I think Leonard ducked Pryor.

IMDAZED
10-15-2009, 04:55 PM
That's the only available footage that I know of which can help show that Leonard ducked Pryor. I also believe that Leonard was interviewed once and said that Pryor was too much of a risk but I can't confirm this.

There was no reason why he shouldn't have fought Pryor. Pryor had a good name and was a respected champion in another weight class. He was even willing to come up to Leonard's division in order to face him.

Say what you want but I think Leonard ducked Pryor.

About as valid as the whole Mosley ducked Mayweather in 1999 debate.

Don't believe it for one second and firmly believe Ray woulda had his way with him.

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 05:25 PM
About as valid as the whole Mosley ducked Mayweather in 1999 debate.

Don't believe it for one second and firmly believe Ray woulda had his way with him.

I think Leonard would have beat him, also. But that's not a good reason to say why Leonard didn't duck Pryor.

Dynamite Kid
10-15-2009, 05:30 PM
I think Leonard would have beat him, also. But that's not a good reason to say why Leonard didn't duck Pryor.


Im a Pryor fan but Leonard may very well of taken Pryor out to. Pryor got decked in most of his fights and whilst that was down to leaving his chin hanging out none of his opponents had the finishing prowess of Leonard.

Leonard is the best finisher ive ever seen along with Mike Tyson, ironically enough Pryor was a very good finisher to.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 05:43 PM
That's the only available footage that I know of which can help show that Leonard ducked Pryor. I also believe that Leonard was interviewed once and said that Pryor was too much of a risk but I can't confirm this.

There was no reason why he shouldn't have fought Pryor. Pryor had a good name and was a respected champion in another weight class. He was even willing to come up to Leonard's division in order to face him.

Say what you want but I think Leonard ducked Pryor.

Here's an article from 1982:

"I had nothing but good dealings with Aaron," says Elkus. "Unfortunately, he's his own worst enemy. He isn't a bad kid, and he's a kid even though he's 27. I don't think Cincinnatians look at him as a professional athlete. I think they look at him as a kid from the ghetto who had the gall to say, 'I'm going to turn down a $500,000 offer to fight Ray Leonard.' Now they like to hear that Aaron had a paternity suit, that his attorney sued him, that he fired his business manager, that he doesn't want Buddy LaRosa in his corner anymore. But all that doesn't mean anything. The guy can fight. Aaron has his minuses, but he has a lot of pluses you never hear about."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1126084/2/index.htm

"If Aaron Pryor is anywhere in the audience, this is your opportunity, pal," said Leonard, challenging the WBA junior welterweight champion to a fight for the welterweight title.

Pryor had been making public challenges to Leonard.

"You'll be a tune-up," said Leonard.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=pbQRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=p-kDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5388,3313013&dq=ray+leonard+aaron+pryor&hl=en

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 06:00 PM
"I had nothing but good dealings with Aaron," says Elkus. "Unfortunately, he's his own worst enemy. He isn't a bad kid, and he's a kid even though he's 27. I don't think Cincinnatians look at him as a professional athlete. I think they look at him as a kid from the ghetto who had the gall to say, 'I'm going to turn down a $500,000 offer to fight Ray Leonard.' Now they like to hear that Aaron had a paternity suit, that his attorney sued him, that he fired his business manager, that he doesn't want Buddy LaRosa in his corner anymore. But all that doesn't mean anything. The guy can fight. Aaron has his minuses, but he has a lot of pluses you never hear about."

That's not proof. That's what another man claims Pryor said. It's the same as what I said before, with Bert Sugar claiming Leonard said that Pryor was too much of a risk. Not actual proof.

"If Aaron Pryor is anywhere in the audience, this is your opportunity, pal," said Leonard, challenging the WBA junior welterweight champion to a fight for the welterweight title.

Pryor had been making public challenges to Leonard.

"You'll be a tune-up," said Leonard.

"You'll be a tune-up," said Leonard, as if talking to Pryor, who was not present.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 06:18 PM
That's not proof. That's what another man claims Pryor said. It's the same as what I said before, with Bert Sugar claiming Leonard said that Pryor was too much of a risk. Not actual proof.

I'd imagine that one of Pryor's closest associates saying it at the time is more credible than proven myth spewer Bert Sugar talking about the fight 20 years later.

There's no proof whatsoever that Leonard ducked Pryor. No newspapers at the time thought so, Pryor himself didn't (he actually applauded Leonard for retiring), only after the HBO Legendary Nights did people begin to believe this myth.

Pryor called out Leonard in press conferences, Leonard called out Pryor during the post-fight press conference after beating Hearns. There were discussions but nothing came off of them, and Leonard retired before Pryor had his greatest victory against Alexis Arguello.

Here's Pryor in 1981 saying he doesn't expect to fight either Hearns or Leonard because they are "picking up weight":

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9FANAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-20DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7068,5930924&dq=pryor+leonard&hl=en

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 06:28 PM
There's no proof whatsoever that Leonard ducked Pryor. No newspapers at the time thought so, Pryor himself didn't (he actually applauded Leonard for retiring), only after the HBO Legendary Nights did people begin to believe this myth.

Just because there's no proof doesn't mean you can't assume. If you think Leonard didn't duck Pryor, that's fine. I think the other way.

Here's Pryor in 1981 saying he doesn't expect to fight either Hearns or Leonard because they are "picking up weight":

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=9FANAAAAIBAJ&sjid=-20DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7068,5930924&dq=pryor+leonard&hl=en

I don't see how that gives any proof. Him not expecting the fights because they're moving up in weight? Wouldn't that just add to the speculation of them ducking him?

Princemanspopa
10-15-2009, 06:30 PM
That's the only available footage that I know of which can help show that Leonard ducked Pryor. I also believe that Leonard was interviewed once and said that Pryor was too much of a risk but I can't confirm this.

There was no reason why he shouldn't have fought Pryor. Pryor had a good name and was a respected champion in another weight class. He was even willing to come up to Leonard's division in order to face him.

Say what you want but I think Leonard ducked Pryor.


Oh for the love of god.You watched HBO Legendary nights and came to this conclusion,just admit it.

Go ahead and tell me how Pryor was a name before he beat Arguello?

Go ahead and tell me how Pryor was even a factor in the welterweight division?

Pryor was a big fish in a small pond,who wasn't willing to step out of that tiny pond into the open sea that was the welterweight division.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 06:37 PM
Just because there's no proof doesn't mean you can't assume. If you think Leonard didn't duck Pryor, that's fine. I think the other way.

I don't see how that gives any proof. Him not expecting the fights because they're moving up in weight? Wouldn't that just add to the speculation of them ducking him?

You can assume what you want but I was wondering whether you had any proof other than the infamous HBO Legendary Nights episode to back up your claim. I've researched this somewhat and come to the conclusion that no ducking was going on. All facts seem to point out that way.

He said he didn't expect fights against Hearns and Leonard because they were "picking up weight", as in they were bigger. Pryor fought at 135-140 and never had a fight at 147 until fighting Bobby Joe Young in 1987, a fight he lost.

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 06:59 PM
Oh for the love of god.You watched HBO Legendary nights and came to this conclusion,just admit it.

Actually, I was watching their fights before I saw the Legendary Nights episode and thought to myself: why didn't they fight? Then it hit me.

Also, your fascination with relating Legendary Nights episodes in almost every one of your posts shows your limited ability to reason out things.

Go ahead and tell me how Pryor was a name before he beat Arguello?

If Leonard can sell good crowds against opponents like Larry Bonds, Bruce Finch and Ayub Kalule, he should have no problem against Pryor.

And I'm guessing he had more credibility for beating better opponents than any of the fighters listed above did.

Go ahead and tell me how Pryor was even a factor in the welterweight division?

He hadn't fought in the welterweight division, at the time, but I don't doubt that he a threat to them.

He was the best in his division. Besides that, he beat Hearns in the amateurs, came off a knockout victory over an all-time great JWW in Cervantes, and was repeatedly calling out Leonard for a fight. Yet, he couldn't get a good fight.

KILLA RIGHT
10-15-2009, 07:05 PM
ali (i think he's a great fighter a atg fighter) but this is to the casual fan that says he is the greatest.
manny of course
oscar de la hoya
vargas
chavez sr

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 07:07 PM
If Leonard can sell good crowds against opponents like Larry Bonds, Bruce Finch and Ayub Kalule, he should have no problem against Pryor.

And I'm guessing he had more credibility for beating better opponents than any of the fighters listed above did.

In truth Kalule had a better record than Pryor did before Pryor fought Arguello.

Also it's not like Leonard didn't fight Benitez, Duran, Hearns, all-time great fighters. Yet he ducked a 140 lber whose best win was over an ancient Cervantes.

He hadn't fought in the welterweight division, at the time, but I don't doubt that he a threat to them.

He was the best in his division. Besides that, he beat Hearns in the amateurs, came off a knockout victory over an all-time great JWW in Cervantes, and was repeatedly calling out Leonard for a fight. Yet, he couldn't get a good fight.

When Hearns was a 130 lb matchstick with no punch.

Cervantes was an all-time great perhaps 5 years ago. He was washed up and no longer a factor in boxing at the time Pryor beat him.

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 07:16 PM
You can assume what you want but I was wondering whether you had any proof other than the infamous HBO Legendary Nights episode to back up your claim. I've researched this somewhat and come to the conclusion that no ducking was going on. All facts seem to point out that way.

Like I said before, it's not proof and I know that. I just assume one way and you assume the other. And that's how it's gonna be.

He said he didn't expect fights against Hearns and Leonard because they were "picking up weight", as in they were bigger. Pryor fought at 135-140 and never had a fight at 147 until fighting Bobby Joe Young in 1987, a fight he lost.

Picking up weight means you're gaining weight. If you're gaining weight, you're moving up to another weight class. Why would a natural LW/JWW want to move up to LM? He'd more than likely lose, big time.

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 07:22 PM
In truth Kalule had a better record than Pryor did before Pryor fought Arguello.
Cervantes was an all-time great perhaps 5 years ago. He was washed up and no longer a factor in boxing at the time Pryor beat him.

The names are what's important. Kalule fought no one of notice in America. In fact, all of his fights prior to Leonard were not in America. And all the money is in America.

Cervantes was at least known in America and he was highly regarded.

Also it's not like Leonard didn't fight Benitez, Duran, Hearns, all-time great fighters. Yet he ducked a 140 lber whose best win was over an ancient Cervantes.

I give him 100% credit for those wins but I still feel he ducked Pryor.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 07:41 PM
Like I said before, it's not proof and I know that. I just assume one way and you assume the other. And that's how it's gonna be.

I just don't think you've put too much thought or effort into this.

I've been reading about this for a long time and the timeline just doesn't match. Pryor had his best victory against Arguello after Leonard was already retired. No newspapers at the time mention anything about Leonard "avoiding" Pryor, in fact the talk seems to be about Pryor's own management problems.

Picking up weight means you're gaining weight. If you're gaining weight, you're moving up to another weight class. Why would a natural LW/JWW want to move up to LM? He'd more than likely lose, big time.

Pryor didn't mean they were moving up in weight. He meant that Leonard and Hearns were now bigger than him and it would be unlikely that he would fight them, since he was not a natural welterweight like they were. He was a 140 lber who held a piece of the title. Never stepped up to the WW division until 1987 as I said.

Pryor calling out Leonard is the equal of Timothy Bradley calling out Floyd Mayweather. Would you say Mayweather is ducking him?

The names are what's important. Kalule fought no one of notice in America. In fact, all of his fights prior to Leonard were not in America. And all the money is in America.

Cervantes was at least known in America and he was highly regarded.

Cervantes wasn't well-known in America. Leonard took on Kalule, an accomplished 154 lb champion, as a tune-up to his superfight against Thomas Hearns.

To be completely honest it seems like Pryor's fans try to point out that their man was ducked by everyone to defend against the fact that his record is not all that great outside of Alexis Arguello. In reality he screwed up a lot himself with drug abuse, inactivity and management problems.

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 08:04 PM
I just don't think you've put too much thought or effort into this.

I've been reading about this for a long time and the timeline just doesn't match. Pryor had his best victory against Arguello after Leonard was already retired. No newspapers at the time mention anything about Leonard "avoiding" Pryor, in fact the talk seems to be about Pryor's own management problems.

Leonard is and always will be the people's champion and I doubt they'd write bad about him. His critics' admiration is the equivalent of Oscar de la Hoya's during the 1990's.

Also, like we keep telling each other, there is no proof of ducking. I feel he ducked Leonard while you feel he didn't. You don't see too many sports writers writing an article about how they feel.

Pryor didn't mean they were moving up in weight. He meant that Leonard and Hearns were now bigger than him and it would be unlikely that he would fight them, since he was not a natural welterweight like they were. He was a 140 lber who held a piece of the title. Never stepped up to the WW division until 1987 as I said.

I doubt that, since Leonard and Hearns never fought below welterweight in their entire careers, as a professional. So 'moving up in weight' means something else. And I think that something else is 'moving up to another division'.

Pryor calling out Leonard is the equal of Timothy Bradley calling out Floyd Mayweather. Would you say Mayweather is ducking him?

The circumstances are different. Pryor was rated as the best in his division and he beat someone that was highly regarded.

But knowing Mayweather, lately, I wouldn't doubt it (that's just a joke).

Cervantes wasn't well-known in America. Leonard took on Kalule, an accomplished 154 lb champion, as a tune-up to his superfight against Thomas Hearns.

He already had a tune-up fight against Larry Bonds (who was a southpaw). Don't know why he didn't fight Hearns after that one. But we really shouldn't bring this in since arguments can go either way.

And you have to admit that Cervantes was more well-known than Kalule in America.

To be completely honest it seems like Pryor's fans try to point out that their man was ducked by everyone to defend against the fact that his record is not all that great outside of Alexis Arguello. In reality he screwed up a lot himself with drug abuse and management problems.

I actually like Leonard more than Pryor.

I agree that he screwed up his career, badly. The good old 'what could have been' can apply to Pryor.

blacklodge
10-15-2009, 08:09 PM
:thinking:

Indeed he didn't, he took on better fighters than that. Nunn is the only real name he didn't fight but he did fight Toney who beat Nunn. I'm afraid Hearns, Benn and Eubank wanted nothing to do with him. Barkley and Olajide would have been no contest.

If he split fights with Toney and Kalambay then he hardly lost to every elite fighter he ever faced, did he?

I don't think I can convince you about McCallum because you have a different idea of what a fighter should do in order to pursue greatness. I don't think sitting on your title and dominating a rather weak group of boxers is it. And it's not like Norris was as dominant as Hopkins was during his reign although he did fight better opponents, in my opinion.

It's not that I have a different idea of greatness, but I do also value sitting champions. Moving up and fighting only the best is also pursuant of greatnesss, maybe even more, I just don't think McCallum did it to the extent that he is almost always credited for by the boxing community. There are so many determining factors in boxing, mainly $$, that it's too wildly speculative to say who ducked who. Eubank is probably another story, but I don't think Benn or Hearns ducked anyone, including McCallum. I also don't see a McCallum-Barkley fight in '88-'89-'90 as a blowout. And the fact remains that McCallum did lose to Kalambay and Toney. With Toney, I realize the controversey, but not unlike SRR-Joey Maxim, I don't give retroactive credit for what should have happened. Of course, it shouldn't hurt McCallum historically as much as an outright draw and loss, but it shouldn't help him either. Then you have the second Kalambay fight, years later (3?)and at a higher weight. It's just not the same. It's not that I have no love for The Body Snatcher, but seeing him on top 30, 40 all time P4P lists just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for the peaceful discussion, by the way.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 08:47 PM
It's not that I have a different idea of greatness, but I do also value sitting champions. Moving up and fighting only the best is also pursuant of greatnesss, maybe even more, I just don't think McCallum did it to the extent that he is almost always credited for by the boxing community. There are so many determining factors in boxing, mainly $$, that it's too wildly speculative to say who ducked who. Eubank is probably another story, but I don't think Benn or Hearns ducked anyone, including McCallum. I also don't see a McCallum-Barkley fight in '88-'89-'90 as a blowout. And the fact remains that McCallum did lose to Kalambay and Toney. With Toney, I realize the controversey, but not unlike SRR-Joey Maxim, I don't give retroactive credit for what should have happened. Of course, it shouldn't hurt McCallum historically as much as an outright draw and loss, but it shouldn't help him either. Then you have the second Kalambay fight, years later (3?)and at a higher weight. It's just not the same. It's not that I have no love for The Body Snatcher, but seeing him on top 30, 40 all time P4P lists just doesn't make sense to me.
Thanks for the peaceful discussion, by the way.

Hearns might not have ducked anybody but Steward did not want McCallum to fight him. He signed a Duran-Hearns fight behind McCallum's back when McCallum was Duran's mandatory. Steward insists that Duran would have dropped the title and fought Hearns anyway but McCallum never forgave him that.

Benn was not to duck anyone, and he may not have ducked McCallum, but after McCallum dispatched Watson, what was then viewed as an old man was no longer an easy match-up for anybody in the middleweight division. Credit to Toney for taking him on.

I can't see Barkley being too competitive with McCallum. I view that as an ideal match-up for Mike who feasted on slower, crude brawlers but often struggled with quicker boxer types.

The Kalambay rematch was at the same weight actually, and Kalambay put up a very good effort but it was not quite enough in my opinion.

By the way I don't agree that he is top 30-40 either. Top 100 is another matter but even then, there have been hundreds of great fighters, many that people probably don't even know of.

JB16
10-15-2009, 08:48 PM
I to feel that the HBO Legendary night series, created a blown out of proportion myth regrading Leonard ducking Pryor. To create drama, thus making the episodes more interesting so to speak.

Like some have previously said, by the time Pryor got his biggest win defeating Arguello, Leonard was already in retirement.

In 1981 when Leonard was the best Welterweight in the world and had just beaten top 154 fighter Ayub Kalule, Pyor's only real win of true significane was a faded Antonio Cervantes, and the 140lb Pryor only the previous year had been a top contender in the 135lb division.

Both fighters had some verbal banter and a rivalry, dating back to there amature days.

Here's a quote from Pryor's wife, Frankie Pryor.
''The fight between Ray and Aaron was one many people wanted to see.
Aaron and Ray have been friends since they were in the early teens and boxed on the same USA Boxing team together. Aaron used to go to Palmer Park, MD and stay with Ray and his family for months at a time when they were working through the amateur ranks. In fact, Ray***8217;s mom advised both of them to not turn pro as she didn***8217;t think they would be able to make a living in boxing! We still see Sugar Ray a couple times a year and I always enjoy hearing their stories about the ***8220;good old days***8221;. But I think those ***8220;good old days***8221; stopped short any match-up as pros because they were both so knowledgeable of each other***8217;s styles from sparring together and being on the same boxing team. That is the one fighter Aaron does not flat out say he would have beaten but he always says he would have been one great fight no matter who won''

Both Ray and Aaron called out each other on different occasions. But lets not forget as someone already has said, Pryor in 1981 said he doesn't expect to fight either Hearns or Leonard because they are "picking up weight''

But to say Ray ran scared of Pryor and always ducked him are blowing things totally out of proportion as the facts prove, and that is mainly due to HBO.

If Leonard was willing to step up to the plate and fight, Hearns, Benitez, and Duran. I don't think he would of avoided Pryor.

Here's another quote from Leonard rearding a Pryor bout
''Aaron Pryor wants to get into the ring with me. He wants to be able to retire, and he will. For health reasons''

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 08:58 PM
Leonard is and always will be the people's champion and I doubt they'd write bad about him. His critics' admiration is the equivalent of Oscar de la Hoya's during the 1990's.

Leonard was accused of ducking Thomas Hearns for example, because Hearns was widely considered the number 1 challenger and to many the number 1 in the division over Leonard.

Pryor on the other hand was a light welterweight who as I've said many times, did not have any notable victories aside from one over Antonio Cervantes.

Also, like we keep telling each other, there is no proof of ducking. I feel he ducked Leonard while you feel he didn't. You don't see too many sports writers writing an article about how they feel.

I don't really "feel" he didn't. To me it's fairly certain that he didn't because there simply wasn't a window of opportunity for the match to ever happen.

I doubt that, since Leonard and Hearns never fought below welterweight in their entire careers, as a professional. So 'moving up in weight' means something else. And I think that something else is 'moving up to another division'.


He was probably thinking back about the times when Hearns and Leonard fought in the same divisions as him in the amateurs. Pryor stayed as a 135-140 pounder, while Hearns and Leonard got bigger and fought mainly at 147.

Thus saying that they were "picking up weight" and that it is unlikely he will fight either. He was not a natural welterweight and neither Hearns or Leonard were going to fight at 140.


The circumstances are different. Pryor was rated as the best in his division and he beat someone that was highly regarded.

But knowing Mayweather, lately, I wouldn't doubt it (that's just a joke).

I'm not sure if Cervantes at the time was any more highly regarded than Witter and Holt. I'm not saying that either of those two were on Cervantes's level at all but Cervantes really was getting up there in age, his performances had gotten worse and worse and it was basically a matter of time when he was going to lose his belt to somebody.

He already had a tune-up fight against Larry Bonds (who was a southpaw). Don't know why he didn't fight Hearns after that one. But we really shouldn't bring this in since arguments can go either way.

The promoters had staged a double-header with Leonard and Hearns both in main events, Leonard fighting Kalule, Hearns fighting an unknown Pablo Baez. Both won their fights in impressive fashion which further hyped up their eventual showdown.

And you have to admit that Cervantes was more well-known than Kalule in America.


Perhaps more so but even during the pre-fight analysis for the Pryor vs Cervantes fight it is mentioned that despite all his achievements, Cervantes is little known by the US fans.

Princemanspopa
10-15-2009, 09:35 PM
Actually, I was watching their fights before I saw the Legendary Nights episode and thought to myself: why didn't they fight? Then it hit me.


Also, your fascination with relating Legendary Nights episodes in almost every one of your posts shows your limited ability to reason out things.

Bull****! Your accusation and it's source is so damn obvious.These accusations of Leonard ducking Pryor didn't start until that episode came out,you watched that episode,saw Aaron Pryor making a feeble attempt at calling out Ray Leonard and put 1+1 together and came up with 3



If Leonard can sell good crowds against opponents like Larry Bonds, Bruce Finch and Ayub Kalule, he should have no problem against Pryor.

Good thinking idiot.You just named Bruce Finch and Larry Bonds,both of whom happened to actually be welterweights and Kalule who happened to be a junior middleweight champion(just an oppurtunity to pick up another belt)



He hadn't fought in the welterweight division, at the time, but I don't doubt that he a threat to them.


Who cares what you think,the fact of that matter is that,Pryor never had the balls to step up to 147 and perhaps you could answer why he didn't?

If anything there is a much greater argument to suggest that Aaron Pryor ducked Ray Leonard here,as he was given an offer and that he wasn't willing to step out of his own division despite making some moise about fighting bigger men.


He was the best in his division. Besides that, he beat Hearns in the amateurs, came off a knockout victory over an all-time great JWW in Cervantes, and was repeatedly calling out Leonard for a fight. Yet, he couldn't get a good fight.


Aarony Pryor was the best JWW at that time,what a great accomplishment that was,especially when the division was bursting with talent......:dunce:


Aaaron Pryor as a young man beat a skinny,pillow punching boy in Thomas Hearns in the amatuers,which doesn't mean **** in the professional rankings,the fact that you bring this up proves how shallow your argument is.

Stoppage
10-15-2009, 09:39 PM
I would quote everything you said and respond again but they'd all come down to the same thing. Different arguments with different opinions. I think it's safe to say that we should leave it as it is, since you're not going to make me admit that Leonard didn't duck Pryor.

Until I see an actual quote from Pryor admitting that he turned down the chance to fight Leonard, I won't believe it. I'm sure it's the same with you but with Leonard.

prinzmanspoper
12-09-2009, 02:33 AM
1.) Joe Frazier - Entire legacy based off of one win over one past his prime fighter who lost to ring rust,and then two decisive losses to the very same man and two beat downs by the only puncher he ever faced and that's his legacy.Failed to fight the top heavyweights of his era,ducked virtually every puncher of his era and the two times that he did,he got put down eight times.Gets ranked in a position that he clearly isn't deserving of,

2.) Roberto Duran - Supposedly one of the most dominant champions of all time and yet failed to defend his title against the greatest contenders on a consistent basis,padded record consisting of no hopers and lost to bums like Kirkland Laing and Robbie Simms.There's an excuse for ever loss he ever suffered but the cold hard truth is that he just wasn't as good as his fanboys claimed.

3.) Aaron Pryor - Entire legacy is written by the newbs who watched HBO's legendary night series and bought into the stupid myths and lies such as Leonard and Hearns ducking this man.His resume is piss poor,with two wins over faded champions such as Cervantes and Arguello.He isn't p4p material and he isn't even the greatest in his own division,very overrated fighter.

4.) Gene Fullmer - Very similar situation with Frazier,entire legacy based off of two wins over Sugar Ray Robinson,who was a good five years past his prime the first time they fought.Two wins over a welterweight who was never an impressive middleweightt and he probably used his head more than he did his hands in those fights.Met Mr Dick Tiger and boy did he get a wake up call.His style woudl fail miserably today,not so much because he was a one dimensional brawler,but because no legitimate official would tolerate his dirty tactics.

5.) James Toney - Very few fighters have as much of a padded record,benifited from so many gift decisions and recieved more chances than his fat slob,who at one time actually did have talent.His knockout victory over Michael Nunn is where his legacy started and where it ended.The greatest fighter he ever fought beat him on a landslide,it wasn't competitive,it wasn't close,Toney was brought in a glorified sparring partner and he got clowned.



Five will do for now.





6.) Salvador Sanchez - Harsh but true,his career and life ended unfortunately at the young age of 23,but his accomplishments and victories have been overblown to great porportions since his death,he wasn't that much of an accomplished fighter,certainly no great as he never had the chance to prove as such.His two greatest wins are over Wilfredo Gomez,a super bantamweight who was untested as a featherweight and a very young,very green Azumah Nelson,and at the time it wasn't a great win as Nelson had proven nothing at the time.Nelson despite his loss,will go down as the greater,more accomplished fighter in history

7.) Joe Louis - Devoid of a serious threat to his prime for the most part,most of the top challengers consisted of one dimensional slobs who were just made for Joe Louis.He met a faded counter puncher,near enough his prime and got taken to school and beaten down and out into submission,Louis would gain revenge but one can learn alot more from eleven rounds than they can one round.Twenty five successful title defenses and two black men.

8.) Marco Antonio Barrera - A very smart,calculated man and that played through into his boxing career,his greatest win was against Naseem Hamed,whom he waited three years before finally signing the contract,at this point Hamed was a shell of his former self.Dispathced in a mismatch against Pacquiao and fought to survive in the rematch.Barrera was knocked out by unhearalded Junio Jones who's chin had been found out by two journeymen in John Jackson and Darrly Pickney,so his chin was most certainly suspect and quitting against Amir Khan,you have to question his heart.

9.) Terry Norris - What do Ray Leonard,Meldrick Taylor,Donald Curry and John Mugabi have in common? Why they all happened to be washed up and they all happen to be Terry Norris's greatest wins.Never has a fighter ever benefited from a legacy of washed up victims as Terry Norris has.He attempted to add Simon Brown to his list of old timers but Terry Norris was exposed as having a glass jaw and suffered a humiliating defeat.Norris would fight just one top fighter in his prime and he would get knocked out in just the second round.

10.) Manny Pacquiao - Supposedly boxing's current p4p best and unfortunately many of the mainstream media agree with this.Many have spoken of Pacquiao's develoment as a fighter,how he has been able to develop his right hand to be as effective as his left hand,how he has matured into a smarter fighter who doesn't throw caution to the wind,tho they have neglected to mention Pacquiao's greatest development,and that is his match making ability.Pacquiao was exposed badly against a washed up Erik Morales,who still possesed enough left to expose Pacquiao as badly as he did,Pacquiao would beat a shot Erik Morales twice later on but not before Zahir Raheem was able to do so.Pacquiao was exposed in both fights with Juan Manuel Marquez,Marquez was knocked down three times in just one round but was able to come back and score a draw and was blatantly robbed in the rematch.Wins over a shot,washed up,weight drained Oscar De La Hoya and a overrated,faded Ricky Hatton do not confirm this mans greatness,rather expose how carefully matched he was




This was actually a very good list.I went into a little more detail than the rest of the jokers who simply listed a few fighters.

Quite hilarious that the one Duran apologist would list Sugar Ray Leonard and Wilfred Benitez on his list,two fiighters who clowned Duran quite badly.I'm sure he has an excuse just like his hero does for those two clowning sessions.





Until I see an actual quote from Pryor admitting that he turned down the chance to fight Leonard, I won't believe it. I'm sure it's the same with you but with Leonard.


funnily enough,there was a qoute from Pryor stating that he turned down the chance to fight Ray Leonard.There was also a thread made on it a month or so ago.

GJC
12-09-2009, 04:46 PM
Pep was a legendary fighter, but with a rating undeserving of a power-deficient fighter.

Holyfield (is/was) good but not as good as many would have you believe. In his prime, Tyson would chewed him up and spat him out. (Bad metaphor, given what Mike did to his ear) :D

Sweet Pea was a bore with only defensive and no offensive skills to speak of. He was strictly a counter-puncher. If the other guy didn't initiate hostilities, they would stare at each other all night long...
It is the noble art of self defense?
Few different styles going, no one rates either Pep or Whitaker as a one punch KO artist it is their defensive skills that put them up the list.
Why not Billy Conn then following that theory?

GJC
12-09-2009, 05:03 PM
7.) Joe Louis - Devoid of a serious threat to his prime for the most part,most of the top challengers consisted of one dimensional slobs who were just made for Joe Louis.He met a faded counter puncher,near enough his prime and got taken to school and beaten down and out into submission,Louis would gain revenge but one can learn alot more from eleven rounds than they can one round.Twenty five successful title defenses and two black men.



I thought you had Louis as a top 3 ATG HW in fact i'm pretty sure thats what you said when I asked you? If you have him as top 3 and I believe most have him top 2 behind Ali it's not a huge overrate is it?

Ziggy Stardust
12-09-2009, 05:07 PM
I thought you had Louis as a top 3 ATG HW in fact i'm pretty sure thats what you said when I asked you? If you have him as top 3 and I believe most have him top 2 behind Ali it's not a huge overrate is it?

You have to forgive the poor dolt: He's gotten his wires crossed and thought he was posting under his banned Slimey Limey alt :rofl:

Poet

Ziggy Stardust
12-09-2009, 05:10 PM
It is the noble art of self defense?
Few different styles going, no one rates either Pep or Whitaker as a one punch KO artist it is their defensive skills that put them up the list.
Why not Billy Conn then following that theory?

Where does he get Whitaker not having offensive skills from? Whitaker was fine offensively, very active in letting his hands go unlike Mayweather. I'm I supposed to believe that if a fighter doesn't have one puch KO power then he automatically doesn't have offensive skills? :grumble:

Poet

GJC
12-09-2009, 05:20 PM
10/. Tony Zale

Just goes to show how opinions differ I would be thinking of putting Zale in my over rated list to be honest. He was champion in a strong MW era but didn't fight many of the likes of Moore,Williams,Burley and La Motta.

GJC
12-09-2009, 05:21 PM
You have to forgive the poor dolt: He's gotten his wires crossed and thought he was posting under his banned Slimey Limey alt :rofl:

Poet
Which is why I made point of asking him his opinion of Louis and got the top 3 reply.

Dynamite Kid
12-09-2009, 08:06 PM
You know what the irony is about Poopascoopa ? he tears down all these great fighters and yet he is a fan of the biggest hype/fraud of entire era, Naseem Hamed!!

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 08:07 PM
You know what the irony is about Poopascoopa ? he tears down all these great fighters and yet he is a fan of the biggest hype/fraud of entire era, Naseem Hamed!!

Why are you posting in the history section? I thought idiots weren't allowed. Surely anyone who thinks he's overrated must be an idiot.

Dynamite Kid
12-09-2009, 08:18 PM
Why are you posting in the history section? I thought idiots weren't allowed. Surely anyone who thinks he's overrated must be an idiot.

Well why are there so many people who think it? perhaps because he never beat an elite fighter and got smacked about by the likes of Augie Sanchez, Kevin Kelly? got embarrassed infront of the whole world, then retired in disgrace.

Biggest hype job of the whole era.

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 08:22 PM
Well why are there so many people who think it? perhaps because he never beat an elite fighter and got smacked about by the likes of Augie Sanchez, Kevin Kelly and god embarrassed infront of the whole world, then retired in disgrace.

Biggest hype job of the whole era.

Maybe because they're knowledgeable.

He became a three-time world featherweight champion (should've been four) and beat eight world champions, six of them being in the featherweight division.

Get your head straight, junior.

Dynamite Kid
12-09-2009, 08:25 PM
Maybe because they're knowledgeable.

He became a three-time world featherweight champion (should've been four) and beat eight world champions, six of them being in the featherweight division.

Get your head straight, junior.


He beat faded fighters past their best and got beat with ease!! when he stepped up the competition.

Overrated/hype.

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 08:33 PM
He beat faded fighters past their best and got beat with ease!! when he stepped up the competition.

Overrated/hype.
Barrera (the better competition, as you say) beat a crap, out of action version Hamed. The same one that put on the worst performance of his entire career in his next and final fight. But yes, he gets credit for it.

That "faded fighter" excuse his lame. They only became faded when he beat them. So stop trying to act like a smart kid on this site when you're just digging more holes into your own stupidity.

I could even use the man in your sig (Timothy Bradley) as an example of this. Who did he beat? A faded Nate Campbell? A couple of overrated fighters in Kendall Holt and Junior Witter? But the truth is that it isn't like that.

Now, go watch some cartoons.

Dynamite Kid
12-09-2009, 08:40 PM
Barrera (the better competition, as you say) beat a crap, out of action version Hamed. The same one that put on the worst performance of his entire career in his next and final fight. But yes, he gets credit for it.

That "faded fighter" excuse his lame. They only became faded when he beat them. So stop trying to act like a smart kid on this site when you're just digging more holes into your own stupidity.

I could even use the man in your sig (Timothy Bradley) as an example of this. Who did he beat? A faded Nate Campbell? A couple of overrated fighters in Kendall Holt and Junior Witter? But the truth is that it isn't like that.

Now, go watch some cartoons.



Hamed lost because he was a hype job. Even if there is validity to your claim he was not dedicated to the sport etc etc, he still has to overcome stylistic problems in the fight that he could not deal with the first time. Barrera won because he technically more skilled, more intelligent fighter and just on another level as he proved.

Hamed was a puncher that is all, he got took to Boxing school and retired like the fraud of era he always was, good day.

Bradley has not retired yet so there is not point in going into that.

Ziggy Stardust
12-09-2009, 08:42 PM
He beat faded fighters past their best and got beat with ease!! when he stepped up the competition.

Overrated/hype.

DK, meet incredibleman: SlimeyPoophead's latest alt :rofl:

Poet

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 08:47 PM
Hamed lost because he was a hype job. Even if there is validity to your claim he was not dedicated to the sport etc etc, he still has to overcome stylistic problems in the fight that he could not deal with the first time. Barrera won because he technically more skilled, more intelligent fighter and just on another level as he proved.

Hamed was a puncher that is all, he got took to Boxing school and retired like the fraud of era he always was, good day.

Bradley has not retired yet so there is not point in going into that.

In case you didn't know (and you didn't), I was using the out of prime, past it Hamed theory as an example to prove my point.

If Hamed was in good fighting condition, as you say, then so were Hamed's 36 victims.

You're right. Hamed wasn't a great boxer. He was more of a puncher than anything else.

You know who else weren't great boxers? George Foreman and Rocky Marciano. I guess they're overrated.

Dynamite Kid
12-09-2009, 08:47 PM
DK, meet incredibleman: SlimeyPoophead's latest alt :rofl:

Poet

I already suspected as much.


Shall we hit the "Report" just out of affection for him? i think so.:boxing:

Dont you just love this Poet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPbuMcJWjIQ

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 08:48 PM
DK, meet incredibleman: SlimeyPoophead's latest alt :rofl:

Poet

No need to introduce you to this moron. You probably know each other. The man who I'm currently 2-0 in debates in.

Feel like improving my record to 3-0?

Ziggy Stardust
12-09-2009, 08:52 PM
No need to introduce you to this moron. You probably know each other. The man who I'm currently 2-0 in debates in.

Feel like improving my record to 3-0?

As GreatA has told you many times getting in the last word does not constitute "winning" the debate :loser:

Poet

Dynamite Kid
12-09-2009, 08:52 PM
In case you didn't know (and you didn't), I was using the out of prime, past it Hamed theory as an example to prove my point.

If Hamed was in good fighting condition, as you say, then so were Hamed's 36 victims.

You're right. Hamed wasn't a great boxer. He was more of a puncher than anything else.

You know who else weren't great boxers? George Foreman and Rocky Marciano. I guess they're overrated.



Im saying that for arguments sake not because i believe it.

I will say it again for you, even if!! he was not in good fighting condition, how does he overcome the stylistic problems he faced in the fight? face it, it does not matter which Hamed (fraud) turned up to fight MAB he still Boxes his big ears off.

Hamed biggest fraud of the era, big puncher with not much else, shaky chin to BTW

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 08:55 PM
Im saying that for arguments sake not because i believe it.

I will say it again for you, even if!! he was not in good fighting condition, how does he overcome the stylistic problems he faced in the fight? face it, it does not matter which Hamed (fraud) turned up to fight MAB he still Boxes his big ears off.

Hamed biggest fraud of the era, big puncher with not much else, shaky chin to BTW

Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure you'll end up believing it one day.

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 08:58 PM
As GreatA has told you many times getting in the last word does not constitute "winning" the debate :loser:

Poet

Of course it doesn't. What does is reading my last post, having no comeback argument, and then running off. You've done it twice. Therefore, I'm 2-0.

Ziggy Stardust
12-09-2009, 09:07 PM
Of course it doesn't. What does is reading my last post, having no comeback argument, and then running off. You've done it twice. Therefore, I'm 2-0.

:bottle: Awwww, poor exposed baby whinging again :bottle:

Poet

incredibleman
12-09-2009, 09:14 PM
:bottle: Awwww, poor exposed baby whinging again :bottle:

Poet

Like you've done before, you only resort to this when you know you're losing or if you've already lost. Either way, it shows who's right and who's wrong.

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 03:01 AM
I thought you had Louis as a top 3 ATG HW in fact i'm pretty sure thats what you said when I asked you? If you have him as top 3 and I believe most have him top 2 behind Ali it's not a huge overrate is it?


I actually said he was the second best heavyweight in the very least.He accomplished simply too much to be considered anything less.




You know what the irony is about Poopascoopa ? he tears down all these great fighters and yet he is a fan of the biggest hype/fraud of entire era, Naseem Hamed!!


I apologise for stating the truth in that Hamed had quite clearly declined as a fighter leading up to his fight with barrera.I know you love barrera and it must pain you to hear it all the time but that's the reality of it all.

How overrated does that make Marcy then,eh? In that his single greatest win was over a hypejob.


I know one thing in that Hamed was never sparked out cold like Marcy was,he was never dispatched in a complete mismatch like Marcy was and he never quit on his stool like Marcy did either.




Hamed biggest fraud of the era, big puncher with not much else, shaky chin to BTW



A barrera fan is in no position to be accusing others of having suspect chins.Junior Jones had no issue in knocking out barrera and yet he ran with his tail between his legs rather than fight Hamed.Atleast Jones was open in his ducking of Hamed.

Dynamite Kid
12-10-2009, 03:16 AM
I actually said he was the second best heavyweight in the very least.He accomplished simply too much to be considered anything less.


I apologise for stating the truth in that Hamed had quite clearly declined as a fighter leading up to his fight with barrera.I know you love barrera and it must pain you to hear it all the time but that's the reality of it all.

How overrated does that make Marco then,eh? In that his single greatest win was over a hypejob.



A barrera fan is in no position to be accusing others of having suspect chins.Junior Jones had no issue in knocking out barrera and yet he ran with his tail between his legs rather than fight Hamed.Atleast Jones was open in his ducking of Hamed.



Stating the truth? All you did was get owned because you could not answer my question. You know why? because there is no answer to the fact Barrera owned him stylistically, that has nothing to do with being at your peak, unless you are shot to **** like Roy Jones. It dont bother me pal, Barrera won that fight and gets his props off majority of fans so it does not really matter what you think does it. Hamed gets called a coward for retiring and chastised for beating nobodies then getting royal owned infront of the whole world lol

How overrated does that make Marco then,eh? In that his single greatest win was over a hypejob.


Morales is his greatest win lol

A Barrera fan can say what he likes to a Hamed fan, Barrera is considered a legend and an elite fighter, Hamed is not worth mentioning in the same breath. There is a reason people see the credentials of the two fighters that way. One was a fraud (Hamed) the other a proven quantity at the elite end of Boxing.

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 03:36 AM
Stating the truth? All you did was get owned because you could not answer my question. You know why? because there is no answer to the fact Barrera owned him stylistically, that has nothing to do with being at your peak, unless you are shot to **** like Roy Jones. It dont bother me pal, Barrera won that fight and gets his props off majority of fans so it does not really matter what you think does it. Hamed gets called a coward for retiring and chastised for beating nobodies then getting royal owned infront of the whole world lol.

Can't put me on ignore like a coward here can you? It has everything to do with being at his peak you idiot,because at Hamed's peak,barrera didn't want to fight him.

You build up barrera's win over Hamed and yet you completely discredit him,which really doesn't make his win that credible does it?

Cowards run away after injuring another person in a car crash but cowards also throw cheap shots at opponents at press conferences,cowards quit on their stool as Marcy has already shown us.



Morales is his greatest win lol

A Barrera fan can say what he likes to a Hamed fan, Barrera is considered a legend and an elite fighter, Hamed is not worth mentioning in the same breath. There is a reason people see the credentials of the two fighters that way. One was a fraud (Hamed) the other a proven quantity at the elite end of Boxing.


barrera and Erik Morales are considered legends by the cheerleaders over at hbo,and obviously sheep like you actually believe that they are.

You have shown us that a barrera fanboy(as you are)can't simply say what they wish,at whatever time they wish as the average barrera fan knows the truth about his win over Hamed.They know how thin Marcy's legacy is without that win too.

Dynamite Kid
12-10-2009, 03:40 AM
Can't put me on ignore like a coward here can you? It has everything to do with being at his peak you idiot,because at Hamed's peak,barrera didn't want to fight him.

You build up barrera's win over Hamed and yet you completely discredit him,which really doesn't make his win that credible does it?

Cowards run away after injuring another person in a car crash but cowards also throw cheap shots at opponents at press conferences,cowards quit on their stool as Marcy has already shown us.



barrera and Erik Morales are considered legends by the cheerleaders over at hbo,and obviously sheep like you actually believe that they are.

You have shown us that a barrera fanboy(as you are)can't simply say what they wish,at whatever time they wish as the average barrera fan knows the truth about his win over Hamed.They know how thin Marcy's legacy is without that win too.

Im made a thread for you check it out. Benn calling Hamed for the coward he is.

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 03:44 AM
Im made a thread for you check it out. Benn calling Hamed for the coward he is.

Why would I care? I have no issue with Nigel and Hamed was out of line for bringing up Nigel's name like that.I do find it pathetic and sad that you would dig that up in hope of offending me lol,ya sad prick.

Dynamite Kid
12-10-2009, 03:54 AM
Why would I care? I have no issue with Nigel and Hamed was out of line for bringing up Nigel's name like that.I do find it pathetic and sad that you would dig that up in hope of offending me lol,ya sad prick.

Swearing at people because you dont like it. Your own little fanboy instincts are showing, tut tut lol

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 04:02 AM
Swearing at people because you dont like it. Your own little fanboy instincts are showing, tut tut lol

And yet you dug that article up and made an irrelevant thread on it.I don't need to create a thread on Marcy getting sparked out by an average Junior Jones because I'm not an insecure little fairy like you.You consistently get found out in topics such as these.


I don't put others on ignore so they can't respond to me either lol.

Dynamite Kid
12-10-2009, 04:05 AM
And yet you dug that article up and made an irrelevant thread on it.I don't need to create a thread on Marcy getting sparked out by an average Junior Jones because I'm not an insecure little fairy like you.You consistently get found out in topics such as these.

Nope. I just did that because i know ive been getting to you, hence the swear words in your two previous posts.

Ironic that you seek to exposes" fanboys" and seem to think they are pathetic when you are one yourself lol

GoogleMe
12-10-2009, 04:12 AM
Pep was a legendary fighter, but with a rating undeserving of a power-deficient fighter.

Holyfield (is/was) good but not as good as many would have you believe. In his prime, Tyson would chewed him up and spat him out. (Bad metaphor, given what Mike did to his ear) :D

Sweet Pea was a bore with only defensive and no offensive skills to speak of. He was strictly a counter-puncher. If the other guy didn't initiate hostilities, they would stare at each other all night long...
Do you base a fighter on what he can give the audience offensively? Cause defense is way underrated. If you love boxing for what it is, then defense is a beauty. Go watch MMA if you want a brawl!

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 04:18 AM
Nope. I just did that because i know ive been getting to you, hence the swear words in your two previous posts.

Ironic that you seek to exposes" fanboys" and seem to think they are pathetic when you are one yourself lol


"seek to exposes"? Good lord.You keep convincing yourself that you are getting to others through an internet forum(lol).I've used swear words many a times and you have shown yourself to be a fanboy too often to deny it.

The thread that you recently created demonstrates this perfectly.

Dynamite Kid
12-10-2009, 04:21 AM
"seek to exposes"? Good lord.You keep convincing yourself that you are getting to others through an internet forum(lol).I've used swear words many a times and you have shown yourself to be a fanboy too often to deny it.

The thread that you recently created demonstrates this perfectly.

Dont try and cover up. Exposed just like your hero.

Good lord.You keep convincing yourself that you are getting to others through an internet forum(lol

Again showing what a hypocrites you are. The above is all you ever do on this forum lol

nostrezz
12-10-2009, 04:24 AM
1. Floyd Jr.
2. Tito
3. P.Williams
4. Froch
5. Hearns
6. Haye
7. Martinez
8. Green
9. Malignaggi
10. Ali

JAB5239
12-10-2009, 04:27 AM
1. Floyd Jr.
2. Tito
3. P.Williams
4. Froch
5. Hearns
6. Haye
7. Martinez
8. Green
9. Malignaggi
10. Ali

Floyd, Tito, Hearns and Ali? Thats uh....thats some list.

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 04:36 AM
Dont try and cover up. Exposed just like your hero.

Good lord.You keep convincing yourself that you are getting to others through an internet forum(lol

Again showing what a hypocrites you are. The above is all you ever do on this forum lol


You're making this too easy - "hypocrites" that I am?

I never have to convince myself that I am winning an argument as many others(including yourself) do around here do.You also seem to be convinced that Hamed in my hero for some reason too.




1. Floyd Jr.
2. Tito
3. P.Williams
4. Froch
5. Hearns
6. Haye
7. Martinez
8. Green
9. Malignaggi
10. Ali

Good list,where's Pacquiao?

Dynamite Kid
12-10-2009, 04:40 AM
You're making this too easy - "hypocrites" that I am?

I never have to convince myself that I am winning an argument as many others(including yourself) do around here do.You also seem to be convinced that Hamed in my hero for some reason too.


Good list,where's Pacquiao?


You never have to convince yourself? all you ever do is make out you won arguments with people, they usually stop arguing because it becomes tedious. You on the other hands are so small minded and imature/sad that you could argue for a week about pointless stuff rather than use the forum for what its for, Boxing.

Oh wait you dont know anything about Boxing do you, my bad.

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 04:50 AM
You never have to convince yourself? all you ever do is make out you won arguments with people, they usually stop arguing because it becomes tedious. You on the other hands are so small minded and imature/sad that you could argue for a week about pointless stuff rather than use the forum for what its for, Boxing.

Oh wait you dont know anything about Boxing do you, my bad.

I on the other "hands"? Are you really this stupid? No,I never have to convince myself that I have won an argument as I'm not as insecure in my argument as you are in your own.

I'll have a serious discussion with those who don't have a cetain fighter's nuts in their mouth.

Larry Merchant
12-10-2009, 04:51 AM
Hatton, Pacman

Dynamite Kid
12-10-2009, 04:54 AM
I on the other "hands"? Are you really this stupid? No,I never have to convince myself that I have won an argument as I'm not as insecure in my argument as you are in your own.

I'll have a serious discussion with those who don't have a cetain fighter's nuts in their mouth.

Your a liar, that is exactly what you do. You come on here telling Poet your 2-0 , who are you trying to kid?

Would that be a serious discussion where you dont swear at the other person for saying your fav fighters got owned?

Your a hypocrite.

prinzmanspoper
12-10-2009, 05:22 AM
Your a liar, that is exactly what you do. You come on here telling Poet your 2-0 , who are you trying to kid?

Would that be a serious discussion where you dont swear at the other person for saying your fav fighters got owned?

Your a hypocrite.

You are = You're,not Your.


Doesn't look like I said anything about being 2-0 against anybody,unless you are suggesting that I made this post?


No need to introduce you to this moron. You probably know each other. The man who I'm currently 2-0 in debates in.

Feel like improving my record to 3-0?

RockyB
12-10-2009, 05:31 AM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.


No man... just no.

sonnyboyx2
12-10-2009, 05:50 AM
most british fighters over the last 20yrs

Mr Reality
12-12-2009, 12:43 PM
Most overrated fighter....easy Manny Pacquiao.
Pacquiao was a top fighter at Featerweight & Super Featerweight but is way overated above these weight classes. Only one fight at Lightweight, Wow he is a great lightweight chump. After a total of ONE fight at the Lifghtweight class, he went on to challenge two fighters a that had been savagely destroyed/KO'd in previous fights. Hand picked picked oponents who were not on the upswing and peaking by any means. These guys resembled fighters that were on the way down. Oh how could I forget, a weight drained old fart De La Hoya who has not fought at WW in over 5 years. Old Oscar even weighed less than Hyped up Pacquiao on fight night as he could rehydrate for the fight. His last real challenge was against Juan Manuel Marquez where he got beaten up (face and body) and had to attend the post fight interview with dark shades to cover up the beating he took. But he knocked him down one time so he won (delusional).

Hatton was a bit overrated, but a good champ at Jr WW/Super Lightweight. Fought a stupid fight vs Manny "The flying Philipino Duckman" Quckuiao by coming straight in with his hands low and his chin up.

Iceta
12-12-2009, 12:55 PM
In order:

Andre Berto (How anybody thinks he can beat Mosley is beyond me.)
Amir Khan (Only a matter of time til he gets sparked again.)
Chad Dawson (He'd lose to Hopkins contrary to popular belief on here.)
Miguel Cotto (His hardcore fans think he deserves to be in the HOF.)
Kelly Pavlik (A lot of people think he can beat Paul Williams.)
Josuha Clottey (He ducked both Margarito and Williams when the fights were offered to him.)
Jean Pascal (Good activity as far as staying busy, but he still lost to Froch.)
Paul Williams (Still underrated by a lot of people though.)
Jermaine Taylor (People think he'll still give Ward problems. LMAO.)
Sergio Martinez (That's to be expected after his good effort against P-Will.)

Smokin'J
12-12-2009, 07:43 PM
people calling me overrated

ji23
12-12-2009, 08:25 PM
mayweather
sugar ray leonard
hatton
khan
mike tyson
paul williams
naseem hamed
and ali...yea i said lol
that just to name a few

ji23
12-12-2009, 08:26 PM
mayweather
sugar ray leonard
hatton
khan
mike tyson
paul williams
naseem hamed
and ali...yea i said lol
that just to name a few

forgot valero

Junito-Rulez
12-12-2009, 08:44 PM
Ricky Hatton
P-Will
Kelly Pavlik
David Haye
Edwin Valero
Joe Calzaghe
Mike Tyson
Hasim Rahman
Tommy Morrison
De La Hoya

T3dBundy
12-12-2009, 08:44 PM
if ali is overrated, anybody in the history of boxing is, including boxing itself :D

Rane-Ex54
12-12-2009, 08:51 PM
Did Someone say David Tua was overratted? Thats crazy, I think he's highly underrated. Dude is a beast Anyhow, here is my list of people that come to mind of being overratted. No Particular order.

ODLH
Sugar Ray Leonard
Ricky Hatton
Chad Dawson
M. Kessler
Tyson
Calzaghe
Tarver
Pavlik
Chris John
Froch

TheNegation
12-12-2009, 09:32 PM
if ali is overrated, anybody in the history of boxing is, including boxing itself :D

Not really. I think people are misconstruing the term "overrated"

Overrated doesn't necessarily mean the guys sucks, it just means not as good as he's made out to be.

People make it seem like Ali could knock your head off with one finger and then take a **** down your neck while eating a chicken sandwich.

Earl Hickey
12-12-2009, 09:40 PM
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Nigel Benn
4. Chris Eubank
5. Ricky Hatton
6. Naseem Hamed
7. Amir Khan
8. Carl Froch
9. David Haye
10. Barry Mcguigan

SeattleSeahawks
12-13-2009, 02:16 AM
Oscar De La Hoya ( We all know why he is popular)
Manny Pac ( If I give you the reason he is overrated i will get banned.)
Mike Tyson
Joe Louis
Rocky Marciano
Jack Dempsey.
Lennox Lewis
Both Klitchko's

prinzmanspoper
12-13-2009, 02:30 AM
Not really. I think people are misconstruing the term "overrated"

Overrated doesn't necessarily mean the guys sucks, it just means not as good as he's made out to be.

People make it seem like Ali could knock your head off with one finger and then take a **** down your neck while eating a chicken sandwich.


I'm not sure if that was your attempt to get a laugh because it really wasn't funny.You made a good point and then ruined it with that attempt at humor.

Sherdog humor perhaps?


The man in your avatar is very overrated,as is his out of shape brother.




forgot valero

Are you a Pacquiao fan?



people calling me overrated


1.) Joe Frazier - Entire legacy based off of one win over one past his prime fighter who lost to ring rust,and then two decisive losses to the very same man and two beat downs by the only puncher he ever faced and that's his legacy.Failed to fight the top heavyweights of his era,ducked virtually every puncher of his era and the two times that he did,he got put down eight times.Gets ranked in a position that he clearly isn't deserving of,




Yes

TheNegation
12-13-2009, 11:32 AM
I'm not sure if that was your attempt to get a laugh because it really wasn't funny.You made a good point and then ruined it with that attempt at humor.

Sherdog humor perhaps?


The man in your avatar is very overrated,as is his out of shape brother.


Do you have a life? I've been a member at this site for just around 6 months and this is like your 7th alt. Is it gratifying making all these accounts just to irritate people who want to have rational, logical and intelligent discussions?


Aleks is not overrated because he's never been that highly touted compared to his brother.

And if out of shape mean he doesn't have a six pack or "toned muscles" then yes he certainly is, however you're views on what being in shape means are just as misconstrued as people views on what Overrated means.

Dynamite Kid
12-13-2009, 02:04 PM
Do you have a life? I've been a member at this site for just around 6 months and this is like your 7th alt. Is it gratifying making all these accounts just to irritate people who want to have rational, logical and intelligent discussions?


Aleks is not overrated because he's never been that highly touted compared to his brother.

And if out of shape mean he doesn't have a six pack or "toned muscles" then yes he certainly is, however you're views on what being in shape means are just as misconstrued as people views on what Overrated means.


No he would rather believe everyone else does not have life.

MexicanMauler
12-13-2009, 02:27 PM
1. Rocky Marciano

Ziggy Stardust
12-13-2009, 06:02 PM
1. Rocky Marciano

1. Arturo Gatti

prinzmanspoper
12-13-2009, 08:46 PM
Do you have a life? I've been a member at this site for just around 6 months and this is like your 7th alt. Is it gratifying making all these accounts just to irritate people who want to have rational, logical and intelligent discussions?


Aleks is not overrated because he's never been that highly touted compared to his brother.

And if out of shape mean he doesn't have a six pack or "toned muscles" then yes he certainly is, however you're views on what being in shape means are just as misconstrued as people views on what Overrated means.


This is my seventh alt? Do you actually know what an alt account is? I don't think that you do.Since I signed up back in July,I have consistently stuck with a similar name and similar avatar(beside the BigMacFoster account).

Unlike yourself,I don't post on several different forums.You don't know how to have a logical discussion.


Aleksander Emelianenko has been consistently ranked as a top heavyweight for many years,despite his resume lacking a notable ranking heavyweight in the last three years.

Out of shape is having more body fat than one is supposed to have - i.e Fedor Emelanenko.




No he would rather believe everyone else does not have life.



You don't know when to quit do you? You consistently try to start arguments with me and run away crying every time you're called out for your stupidity.You originally left this thread without responding to me and immediately come back once somebody else has responded to me.

Running off and reporting me to the moderators does very little in your favour also.

Dynamite Kid
12-13-2009, 09:30 PM
This is my seventh alt? Do you actually know what an alt account is? I don't think that you do.Since I signed up back in July,I have consistently stuck with a similar name and similar avatar(beside the BigMacFoster account).

Unlike yourself,I don't post on several different forums.You don't know how to have a logical discussion.


Aleksander Emelianenko has been consistently ranked as a top heavyweight for many years,despite his resume lacking a notable ranking heavyweight in the last three years.

Out of shape is having more body fat than one is supposed to have - i.e Fedor Emelanenko.








You don't know when to quit do you? You consistently try to start arguments with me and run away crying every time you're called out for your stupidity.You originally left this thread without responding to me and immediately come back once somebody else has responded to me.

Running off and reporting me to the moderators does very little in your favour also.


Am i trying to start an argument? just trying to point out your hypocrisy again!!


I already reported you today :lol1:

prinzmanspoper
12-13-2009, 10:47 PM
Am i trying to start an argument? just trying to point out your hypocrisy again!!


I already reported you today :lol1:


Do you even know what hypocrisy is? Obviously you don't.

You ran away from this thread when I had already responded to your post before and only returned once somebody else had responded to me.

You're a chicken**** and a coward.I already know that you run away crying to gabby to give me a warning for upsetting you.

JAB5239
12-13-2009, 10:57 PM
Do you even know what hypocrisy is? Obviously you don't.

You ran away from this thread when I had already responded to your post before and only returned once somebody else had responded to me.

You're a chicken**** and a coward.I already know that you run away crying to gabby to give me a warning for upsetting you.

Actually I am taking that upon myself because you continue to name call and troll. Tsk, tsk.

The Stone Roses
12-13-2009, 11:06 PM
In no particular order...these are the fighters who i think have been over-hyped by fanboys, the media and so called boxing experts (eg Bert Sugar)

1. Joe Calzaghe
2. Rocky Marciano
3. Manny Pacquiao
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Evander Holyfield
6. Hector Comacho
7. Marco Barrera
8. David Tua
9. Danny Green
10. Naseem Hamed

Dynamite Kid
12-14-2009, 11:02 AM
Do you even know what hypocrisy is? Obviously you don't.

You ran away from this thread when I had already responded to your post before and only returned once somebody else had responded to me.

You're a chicken**** and a coward.I already know that you run away crying to gabby to give me a warning for upsetting you.


Its like Great A keeps telling you, you dont win an argument because someone gets tired of bickering backward and foward.

Chicken ****? you never even made a point worthy of responding to, thats why i left it, it was a weak point so i saw it as the perfect opportunity to walk away from a silly argument. The only only reason i responded in this thread was because your a general idiot and it was an off the cuff comment, not a way of getting back at you because im aggrieved at your weak post that i apparently ducked lol

Actually I am taking that upon myself because you continue to name call and troll. Tsk, tsk.

Do it JAB, then he can cry about it in the Dome lol

prinzmanspoper
12-15-2009, 05:19 AM
Actually I am taking that upon myself because you continue to name call and troll. Tsk, tsk.


http://drunkenachura.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/internet-serious-business.jpg





Its like Great A keeps telling you, you dont win an argument because someone gets tired of bickering backward and foward.

I've never even had such a discussion with theGreatA.Where did you ever imagine such a conversation taking place?

Chicken ****? you never even made a point worthy of responding to, thats why i left it, it was a weak point so i saw it as the perfect opportunity to walk away from a silly argument. The only only reason i responded in this thread was because your a general idiot and it was an off the cuff comment, not a way of getting back at you because im aggrieved at your weak post that i apparently ducked lol


Perhaps you are unaware how much of a loser and a troll you come across by starting an argument and then running away from it.Because that's what you did.


Do it JAB, then he can cry about it in the Dome lol


Chicken ****?

Yes.

Dynamite Kid
12-15-2009, 08:47 AM
http://drunkenachura.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/internet-serious-business.jpg







I've never even had such a discussion with theGreatA.Where did you ever imagine such a conversation taking place?




Perhaps you are unaware how much of a loser and a troll you come across by starting an argument and then running away from it.Because that's what you did.



Yes.


Perhaps you are unaware that your last point was so weak/piss poor that i saw it as a perfect opportunity to stop posting thinking you would not be stupid enough to take it as a morale victory.


Casual fans like you should stay in NSB.

RockyB
12-15-2009, 05:16 PM
Joe Calzaghe

prinzmanspoper
12-16-2009, 03:57 AM
Perhaps you are unaware that your last point was so weak/piss poor that i saw it as a perfect opportunity to stop posting thinking you would not be stupid enough to take it as a morale victory.


Rather than you duck it,I will ask you again -

"Where did you ever imagine such a conversation taking place?"

In regards to this qoute



Its like Great A keeps telling you, you dont win an argument because someone gets tired of bickering backward and foward.



And yet you came back immediately once you had someone else backing you up.

Kiid Dynamite
12-16-2009, 02:39 PM
a lot of fighters from early 1900s are extremely overated

valero
12-16-2009, 04:35 PM
Joe Calzaghe

Definitely. Green K'd.

The_Demon
12-16-2009, 07:21 PM
Definitely. Green K'd.

edwin valero :nana:

Obama
12-16-2009, 07:53 PM
Muhammad Ali should be the first that comes to anyone's mind. He's actually considered the greatest by many. And they're not just talking about Heavyweights.

Heru
12-16-2009, 10:23 PM
Muhammad Ali should be the first that comes to anyone's mind. He's actually considered the greatest by many. And they're not just talking about Heavyweights.

From the lists I've seen, he's usually #2 on ATG lists. It might be a stretch just because he doesn't have as many fights as other ATG's, but his resume is pure substance. Ali is the best heavyweight ever.

pactard99
12-16-2009, 11:39 PM
Pernell Whitaker. this guys is as overrated as f*ck

Obama
12-17-2009, 01:00 AM
From the lists I've seen, he's usually #2 on ATG lists. It might be a stretch just because he doesn't have as many fights as other ATG's, but his resume is pure substance. Ali is the best heavyweight ever.

Louis was better period. And Johnson was better p4p.

Heru
12-18-2009, 01:19 AM
Louis was better period. And Johnson was better p4p.

Louis was better at what? As far as accomplishments go, Ali has wins over 2 of the top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time. How many does Louis have?... Ali also has almost as many good wins as Louis, so when combined with the great ones he has that Louis lacks. And as far as skills and talent goes, Ali beats him.

Johnson P4P was better at what? His best wins aren't better than Ali's, his quality wins don't out shine Ali's either.

wpink1
12-18-2009, 02:07 AM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.


This shows how dumb this guy is... He hypes up duran, but says leonard and benetiz are overrated. Both fighters beat Duran, leoanrd beat him twice.

Mayweather would have beaten duran at 135, 140, 147,

In fact panamiac, can you build a case beside just rooting for Duran that objectively qualities him based on quality of opposition he beat up to age 33, can you build and support a case for him to be considered a alltime great.

Keep in mind we can research his quailty of opposition, we all know he barely beat Leonard the first time by a combined total of 4 points in a fight Leonard chose to not box, then when ray did box him, Duran quit like a *****.

The most overrated is Clearly Duran. Who did he beat, his record vs great fighters even before age 33 was 1-4. Ohhh save the he moved up crap. Mayweather moved up, leoanrd moved up, Sweat pea moved up, Jones moved up, Pacman has moved up, Dlh has moved up, Mosley moved up...Robinson moved up, Armstrong moved up, Holyfield moved up,,,,the list goes on and on...Duran is simply overrated.

donkim
12-18-2009, 03:00 AM
Louis was better at what? As far as accomplishments go, Ali has wins over 2 of the top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time. How many does Louis have?... Ali also has almost as many good wins as Louis, so when combined with the great ones he has that Louis lacks. And as far as skills and talent goes, Ali beats him.

Arguing that Ali has a greater resume than Louis is like arguing that the sky is blue.

Dunce is as a dunce does.

Duran is simply overrated.

Not to mention one of his greatest victories was a clear gift of a decision.Duran's apologists have as many excuses for his losses as Duran does himself.

Obama
12-18-2009, 07:38 PM
Louis was better at what? As far as accomplishments go, Ali has wins over 2 of the top 10 greatest heavyweights of all time. How many does Louis have?... Ali also has almost as many good wins as Louis, so when combined with the great ones he has that Louis lacks. And as far as skills and talent goes, Ali beats him.

Johnson P4P was better at what? His best wins aren't better than Ali's, his quality wins don't out shine Ali's either.

Johnson wasn't really a Heavyweight is the point. Prime Ali had 25 lbs on a prime Johnson. Yet big powerful guys like Sam McVea, the Mike Tyson of his day, were no problem for Johnson.

And resumes are more than just BEST wins, all wins count. Ali is very top heavy, but lacks the depth of Louis. It's not close either:

Louis
Charley Massera
Lee Ramage (x2)
Patsy Perroni
Don ***8220;Red***8221; Barry
Natie Brown
Roy Lazer
Primo Carnera <Post-Prime>
King Levinsky
Max Baer
Paulino Uzcudun
Charley Retzlaff
Jack Sharkey <Over the hill>
Al Ettore
Bob Pastor (x2)
Jim Braddock
Tommy Farr
Nathan Mann
Max Schmeling <Post-Prime>
John Henry Louis <Past his prime> *Light Heavyweight Champion
***8220;Two Ton***8221; Toney Galento
Arturo Godoy (x2)
Johnny Paycheck
Red Burman
Gus Dorazio
Abe Simon (x2)
Tony Musto
Buddy Baer (x2)
Billy Conn (x2) <Both fighters past their prime in 2nd bout> *Light Heavyweight Champion
Lou Nova
Tami Mauriello
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Lee Savold <Both fighters over the hill>
Jimmy Bivins <Both fighters over the hill>

33 respectable opponents.

-----------

Ali
Doug Jones
Henry Cooper (x2)
Sonny Liston (x2) <Both fights past his prime>
Floyd Patterson (x2) <1st fight Past his prime> <2nd fight Over the hill>
George Chuvalo (x2) <2nd fight Over the hill>
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Cleveland Williams <Over the hill>
Ernie Terrell
Zora Folley <Over the hill>
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Oscar ***8220;Ringo***8221; Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Buster Mathis
Joe Bugner (x2)
Ken Norton (x2)
Joe Frazier (x2)
George Foreman <Undefeated>
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks

22 respectable opponents.

Like I said, not close. I also take into account the way the two fighters beat their opponents. Louis ran his over. Ali simply out lasted a lot of his. Most guys died of exhaustion before getting taken out by Ali. Then theirs the streak. Louis 25 defenses cannot be over looked.

GJC
12-18-2009, 08:10 PM
Not to mention one of his greatest victories was a clear gift of a decision.
How do you call it a clear gift, if you can name more than 4 rounds Leonard won i'll be very suprised.

Obama
12-18-2009, 08:43 PM
How do you call it a clear gift, if you can name more than 4 rounds Leonard won i'll be very suprised.

He was prolly talking about the Barkley fight, but come now, Leonard won more than 4 rounds in the first Duran fight. Duran gave the last 2 away for free for god's sake. You're telling me Leonard only won 2 of the first 13 rounds?

The Stone Roses
12-18-2009, 11:23 PM
Muhammad Ali should be the first that comes to anyone's mind. He's actually considered the greatest by many. And they're not just talking about Heavyweights.
HAHHAAHHAHA.......who is this clown?....Muhammad Ali is universally recognised as the Greatest Heavyweight ever....FACT

Obama
12-19-2009, 12:16 AM
HAHHAAHHAHA.......who is this clown?....Muhammad Ali is universally recognised as the Greatest Heavyweight ever....FACT

Learn how to read please.

"And they're not just talking about Heavyweights"

Third Degree MM
12-19-2009, 01:20 AM
Naseem Hamed
Joe Calaghe
Rocky Marciano
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr and Jr
Just to name a few.

Bull ShlT :Flush:

Third Degree MM
12-19-2009, 01:29 AM
Muhammad Ali should be the first that comes to anyone's mind. He's actually considered the greatest by many. And they're not just talking about Heavyweights.

true i would say he's overrated as well, but thats do to ignorance

donkim
12-19-2009, 02:26 AM
Louis 25 defenses cannot be over looked.

When you take into consideration the lack of pulse shown in many of Louis's opponents,then yes,it can be over looked.Do you recognize Joe Calzaghe as a true great?

Ali has the better good wins and he has the better great wins and more of them.





How do you call it a clear gift, if you can name more than 4 rounds Leonard won i'll be very suprised.


I said "one of" his greatest victories,not his greatest victory.I don't dispute the result of the first Leonard-Duran fight,as overrated and messy as that fight was.

Obama
12-19-2009, 02:42 AM
When you take into consideration the lack of pulse shown in many of Louis's opponents,then yes,it can be over looked.Do you recognize Joe Calzaghe as a true great?

Ali has the better good wins and he has the better great wins and more of them.


Joe Calzaghe is definitely 1 of the 200 greatest fighters of all time.

Anyways, a lot of Ali's opponents were past it too:

Sonny Liston (Still near prime in 1st fight)
Floyd Patterson (Still near prime in 1st fight, completely past it in second fight)
George Chuvalo (Over the hill in the 2nd fight)
Cleveland Williams (Shot, literally)
Zora Folley (Over the hill)

And Archie Moore isn't even credible period. The man had 2 feet in the grave and was half buried.

The corpse beating goes both ways.

BennyST
12-19-2009, 03:13 AM
1. Lennox Lewis
2. Joe Calzaghe
3. Nigel Benn
4. Chris Eubank
5. Ricky Hatton
6. Naseem Hamed
7. Amir Khan
8. Carl Froch
9. David Haye
10. Barry Mcguigan

Why not just come straight out and say every British/Euro fighter that has ever fought is overrated and really just ****? None of them were ever any good.

Obama
12-19-2009, 03:25 AM
Why not just come straight out and say every British/Euro fighter that has ever fought is overrated and really just ****? None of them were ever any good.

Hey, he could have listed guys like Jimmy Wilde, Ted Kid Lewis, Freddy Welsh, and Jim Driscoll. But clearly he knew all them and how great they were, thus he dare not list them as over rated. :boxing:

donkim
12-19-2009, 04:04 AM
Joe Calzaghe is definitely 1 of the 200 greatest fighters of all time.

Anyways, a lot of Ali's opponents were past it too:

Sonny Liston (Still near prime in 1st fight)
Floyd Patterson (Still near prime in 1st fight, completely past it in second fight)
George Chuvalo (Over the hill in the 2nd fight)
Cleveland Williams (Shot, literally)
Zora Folley (Over the hill)

And Archie Moore isn't even credible period. The man had 2 feet in the grave and was half buried.

The corpse beating goes both ways.


200? Grow up,dunce.

Patterson wasn't near his prime in either Ali fight.His prime ended when Sonny Liston smashed him twice,but at no point in his career was he ever shot.Patterson aged well when compared to others,he certainly was no legally blind John Henry Lewis,and he certainly was no Jack Sharkey.


Most importantly,Moore,Chuvalo,Williams and Folley are not regarded as Ali's greatest victories.Max Schmeiling is regarded as one of louis's greatest victories and in reality he wasn't as fresh as a daisy(not in the class of Patterson either).


For some odd reason,Billy Conn is generally regarded as a great win for Joe Louis,and when you look up on Ali's resume,you won't notice Bob Foster as one of his greatest victories.That right there tells you all you need to know.

Obama
12-19-2009, 04:24 AM
200? Grow up,dunce.

Patterson wasn't near his prime in either Ali fight.His prime ended when Sonny Liston smashed him twice,but at no point in his career was he ever shot.Patterson aged well when compared to others,he certainly was no legally blind John Henry Lewis,and he certainly was no Jack Sharkey.


Most importantly,Moore,Chuvalo,Williams and Folley are not regarded as Ali's greatest victories.Max Schmeiling is regarded as one of louis's greatest victories and in reality he wasn't as fresh as a daisy(not in the class of Patterson either).


For some odd reason,Billy Conn is generally regarded as a great win for Joe Louis,and when you look up on Ali's resume,you won't notice Bob Foster as one of his greatest victories.That right there tells you all you need to know.

What's wrong with 200? Too high or too low for him? Or do you just not care about fighters rated that "low". I mean there's only been a couple million pro boxers I'm sure....

The Schmeling Louis beat > The Patterson Ali beat

And Billy Conn actually beat legit, top rated Heavyweights. Bob Foster didn't. That's the difference.

JAB5239
12-19-2009, 04:36 AM
What's wrong with 200? Too high or too low for him? Or do you just not care about fighters rated that "low". I mean there's only been a couple million pro boxers I'm sure....

The Schmeling Louis beat > The Patterson Ali beat

And Billy Conn actually beat legit, top rated Heavyweights. Bob Foster didn't. That's the difference.

Poor Slimey just got owned again! Good post Obama!

donkim
12-19-2009, 05:36 AM
What's wrong with 200? Too high or too low for him? Or do you just not care about fighters rated that "low". I mean there's only been a couple million pro boxers I'm sure....

The Schmeling Louis beat > The Patterson Ali beat

And Billy Conn actually beat legit, top rated Heavyweights. Bob Foster didn't. That's the difference.


You have no such legitimate list, dunce.Don't claim to have such either.The top 100 is always the the maxium as anything more just downgrades such rankings.

I'm no fan of foster but he generally came up against superior heavyweights during his step up.

floyd Patterson still had a working pulse when he returned,Schmeling didn't at the time,and Schmeiling wasn't that good to begin with.Which made Louis getting schooled the way he did even more embarrassing.





Poor Slimey just got owned again! Good post Obama!



:bottle:

The fact that you would search for my posts and do this suggests how much I have really gotten into your head over the last few months.


Do tell us how Panama Lewis wasn't in Gatti's corner early on in his career and do tell us how James Toney had many more fights at 160 after Mccallum,forgotten them have you?

GJC
12-19-2009, 08:45 AM
He was prolly talking about the Barkley fight, but come now, Leonard won more than 4 rounds in the first Duran fight. Duran gave the last 2 away for free for god's sake. You're telling me Leonard only won 2 of the first 13 rounds?
4 may be a slight exageration but there were some very even rounds I think you would struggle to score it as simply as Duran wins 9-6 or 8-7 to be honest

GJC
12-19-2009, 08:53 AM
I said "one of" his greatest victories,not his greatest victory.I don't dispute the result of the first Leonard-Duran fight,as overrated and messy as that fight was.
Well I guess you mean the Barklay fight then? Not a clear win I grant you, a close fight which Duran shaded the decision with the knock down. Can't be the first time you have ever seen that happen surely? Clear gift implies a robbery, whatever your view you can't call it a robbery either way the result went.

krazyn8tive
12-19-2009, 08:56 AM
I cannot wrap my head around that someone would say lennox lewis was ovverrated. that is idiocy. you can call lennox an underachiever for 2 fights of his but he did get his get back for those 2. He is one of the few HW's ALL TIME, that can say he has defeated everyone he has faced.

GJC
12-19-2009, 09:04 AM
he certainly was no legally blind John Henry Lewis,and he certainly was no Jack Sharkey.

.Max Schmeiling is regarded as one of louis's greatest victories and in reality he wasn't as fresh as a daisy(not in the class of Patterson either).

For some odd reason,Billy Conn is generally regarded as a great win for Joe Louis,and when you look up on Ali's resume,you won't notice Bob Foster as one of his greatest victories.That right there tells you all you need to know.

floyd Patterson still had a working pulse when he returned,Schmeling didn't at the time,and Schmeiling wasn't that good to begin with.Which made Louis getting schooled the way he did even more embarrassing.



Poop,it is Poop isn't it? So I'm getting confused here, Joe Louis you rank as the 2nd greatest HW all time but he never beat anyone good?


I'm no fan of foster but he generally came up against superior heavyweights during his step up.



So Frazier is good then?

Ziggy Stardust
12-19-2009, 09:30 AM
You have no such legitimate list, dunce.Don't claim to have such either.The top 100 is always the the maxium as anything more just downgrades such rankings.

I'm no fan of foster but he generally came up against superior heavyweights during his step up.

floyd Patterson still had a working pulse when he returned,Schmeling didn't at the time,and Schmeiling wasn't that good to begin with.Which made Louis getting schooled the way he did even more embarrassing.

:bottle:

The fact that you would search for my posts and do this suggests how much I have really gotten into your head over the last few months.

Do tell us how Panama Lewis wasn't in Gatti's corner early on in his career and do tell us how James Toney had many more fights at 160 after Mccallum,forgotten them have you?

Slimeypoophead's latest alt red Ked, reported, and ignored.

Poet

Obama
12-19-2009, 02:17 PM
floyd Patterson still had a working pulse when he returned,Schmeling didn't at the time,and Schmeiling wasn't that good to begin with.Which made Louis getting schooled the way he did even more embarrassing.

How does Schmeling go from best win of his career to "no working pulse" in 2 years, when he remained active as a fighter and didn't lose?

And would you like to poll the forum on who was better, Schemling or Patterson? I don't rate them far apart, #20 and #22 Heavyweights for me, but I'm positive people wouldn't overwhelmingly pick Patterson as the better fighter.

donkim
12-19-2009, 04:52 PM
How does Schmeling go from best win of his career to "no working pulse" in 2 years, when he remained active as a fighter and didn't lose?

And would you like to poll the forum on who was better, Schemling or Patterson? I don't rate them far apart, #20 and #22 Heavyweights for me, but I'm positive people wouldn't overwhelmingly pick Patterson as the better fighter.

I never stated that he was shot,being over the hill isn't shot, dunce.but Max Schmeiling was regarded by most at the time as being past it and that is why him thumping Louis the way he did shocked everybody.


Start a poll if you like,and if the majority pick Schmeling as the better fighter,then I will happily leave this forum and never return.

donkim
12-19-2009, 04:55 PM
Poop,it is Poop isn't it? So I'm getting confused here, Joe Louis you rank as the 2nd greatest HW all time but he never beat anyone good?


who's poop?

So Frazier is good then?


Sure he was good.I never said that he wasn't good.

Obama
12-19-2009, 05:07 PM
floyd Patterson still had a working pulse when he returned,Schmeling didn't at the time

How does Schmeling go from best win of his career to "no working pulse" in 2 years

I never stated that he was shot

So "no working pulse" isn't as bad as shot? :liar:

Start a poll if you like,and if the majority pick Schmeling as the better fighter,then I will happily leave this forum and never return.

:rofl:

You'll alt your way to rigging the results before that, troll.

Heru
12-19-2009, 05:22 PM
Johnson wasn't really a Heavyweight is the point. Prime Ali had 25 lbs on a prime Johnson. Yet big powerful guys like Sam McVea, the Mike Tyson of his day, were no problem for Johnson.

And resumes are more than just BEST wins, all wins count. Ali is very top heavy, but lacks the depth of Louis. It's not close either:

Louis
Charley Massera
Lee Ramage (x2)
Patsy Perroni
Don ***8220;Red***8221; Barry
Natie Brown
Roy Lazer
Primo Carnera <Post-Prime>
King Levinsky
Max Baer
Paulino Uzcudun
Charley Retzlaff
Jack Sharkey <Over the hill>
Al Ettore
Bob Pastor (x2)
Jim Braddock
Tommy Farr
Nathan Mann
Max Schmeling <Post-Prime>
John Henry Louis <Past his prime> *Light Heavyweight Champion
***8220;Two Ton***8221; Toney Galento
Arturo Godoy (x2)
Johnny Paycheck
Red Burman
Gus Dorazio
Abe Simon (x2)
Tony Musto
Buddy Baer (x2)
Billy Conn (x2) <Both fighters past their prime in 2nd bout> *Light Heavyweight Champion
Lou Nova
Tami Mauriello
Jersey Joe Walcott (x2)
Lee Savold <Both fighters over the hill>
Jimmy Bivins <Both fighters over the hill>

33 respectable opponents.

-----------

Ali
Doug Jones
Henry Cooper (x2)
Sonny Liston (x2) <Both fights past his prime>
Floyd Patterson (x2) <1st fight Past his prime> <2nd fight Over the hill>
George Chuvalo (x2) <2nd fight Over the hill>
Brian London
Karl Mildenberger
Cleveland Williams <Over the hill>
Ernie Terrell
Zora Folley <Over the hill>
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Oscar ***8220;Ringo***8221; Bonavena
Jimmy Ellis
Buster Mathis
Joe Bugner (x2)
Ken Norton (x2)
Joe Frazier (x2)
George Foreman <Undefeated>
Ron Lyle
Jimmy Young
Earnie Shavers
Leon Spinks

22 respectable opponents.

Like I said, not close. I also take into account the way the two fighters beat their opponents. Louis ran his over. Ali simply out lasted a lot of his. Most guys died of exhaustion before getting taken out by Ali. Then theirs the streak. Louis 25 defenses cannot be over looked.

Ali's opponent rankings

1962
Billy Daniels-#8
Archie Moore-9
1963
Doug Jones-3
Henry Cooper- #10 year before
1964
Sonny Liston
1965
Liston (Champion)
Floyd Patterson-2
1966
George Chuvalo-8
Brian London- 10 year before
Karl Mildenberg-5
Cleveland Williams- top 7 for 4 of 6 years before
1967
Ernie Terrell-10
Zora Folley- 2 year before
1970
Jerry Quarry-4
Oscar Bonavena-3
1971
Joe Frazier-Champion
1972
Mac Foster- 5 year before
Quarry- 2 year before
Patterson-5
1973
Ken Norton-3
Joe Bugner-8
1974
Frazier-2
George Foreman-Champion
1975
Chuck Wepner-9
Ron Lyle-5
Bugner-8
Frazier-3
1976
Jimmy Young-3
Norton-2
1977
Alfredo Evangelista-8
Earnie Shavers-6
1978
Leon Spinks-Champion

Keep in mind these are year end rankings, meaning after he beat them in that year (except for the champs). The ranking when he fought them was better.
How does Schmeling go from best win of his career to "no working pulse" in 2 years, when he remained active as a fighter and didn't lose?

And would you like to poll the forum on who was better, Schemling or Patterson? I don't rate them far apart, #20 and #22 Heavyweights for me, but I'm positive people wouldn't overwhelmingly pick Patterson as the better fighter.

What does it tell you when you're comparing Louis' best win against Ali's 4th best?

Obama
12-19-2009, 05:30 PM
You just did Ali's opponent rankings without doing the same for Louis....there's no argument to be made there. Doing it for Louis however would take all day, so I'm not even suggesting it.

Also, Max Baer was Louis' best win, not Max Schmeling.

And when I compare Louis' 20th to 30th best wins to Ali's 20th to 30th, Louis opponents win in each and every matchup. Ali's first 20 compared to Louis' first 20 is only an Ali edge by 65-70% at best. If you do the math, this doesn't offset going 0 for 10 from 20-30.

Heru
12-19-2009, 06:03 PM
You just did Ali's opponent rankings without doing the same for Louis....there's no argument to be made there. Doing it for Louis however would take all day, so I'm not even suggesting it.

Also, Max Baer was Louis' best win, not Max Schmeling.

And when I compare Louis' 20th to 30th best wins to Ali's 20th to 30th, Louis opponents win in each and every matchup. Ali's first 20 compared to Louis' first 20 is only an Ali edge by 65-70% at best. If you do the math, this doesn't offset going 0 for 10 from 20-30.

Heavyweights
July 1998 Ring Issue
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. George Foreman Ali
5. Larry Holmes
6. Rocky Marciano Louis
7. Sonny Liston Ali
8. Joe Frazier Ali
9. Jack Johnson
10. Jack Dempsey
11. Ezzard Charles Louis
12. Jim Jeffries
13. Jersey Joe Walcott Louis
14. Mike Tyson
15. Gene Tunney
16. Harry Wills
17. Sam Langford
18. John L. Sullivan
19. Max Schmeling Louis
20. Max Baer Louis

Ali 5-2 (4 KO) against 4 opponents in the top 10 GHOAT.

Louis 0-1 against 1 opponent from the top 10 GHOAT, 4-2 against the bottom half of the top 20. 4-3 (3 KO)

I'd do the same for Louis, but it'd take all day, but from what I've seen it's pretty much the same. I don't like this type of **** because these guys are the greatest, but Ali is the GHOAT.

Obama
12-19-2009, 06:21 PM
Heavyweights
July 1998 Ring Issue
1. Muhammad Ali
2. Joe Louis
3. Evander Holyfield
4. George Foreman Ali
5. Larry Holmes
6. Rocky Marciano Louis
7. Sonny Liston Ali
8. Joe Frazier Ali
9. Jack Johnson
10. Jack Dempsey
11. Ezzard Charles Louis
12. Jim Jeffries
13. Jersey Joe Walcott Louis
14. Mike Tyson
15. Gene Tunney
16. Harry Wills
17. Sam Langford
18. John L. Sullivan
19. Max Schmeling Louis
20. Max Baer Louis

Ali 5-2 (4 KO) against 4 opponents in the top 10 GHOAT.

Louis 0-1 against 1 opponent from the top 10 GHOAT, 4-2 against the bottom half of the top 20. 4-3 (3 KO)

I'd do the same for Louis, but it'd take all day, but from what I've seen it's pretty much the same. I don't like this type of **** because these guys are the greatest, but Ali is the GHOAT.

This comparison isn't remotely fair. It doesn't account for prime status of fighter / opponent at all.

Bottom line is Louis dominated his era more convincingly than Ali dominated his, based on official win/loss ratio and the manner in which the opponents were disposed. Ali fought in a better era, hence his best wins are better. That's not exactly Joe's fault. If Joe had the opportunity to fight Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, what do you think he'd do to them? Go life and death like Ali did? Highly unlikely.

Heru
12-19-2009, 06:59 PM
This comparison isn't remotely fair. It doesn't account for prime status of fighter / opponent at all.

Bottom line is Louis dominated his era more convincingly than Ali dominated his, based on official win/loss ratio and the manner in which the opponents were disposed. Ali fought in a better era, hence his best wins are better. That's not exactly Joe's fault. If Joe had the opportunity to fight Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, what do you think he'd do to them? Go life and death like Ali did? Highly unlikely.

Not fair? Ali was slurring his words and coming off a 2 year layoff when he lost to a prime Holmes and it was counted.

Let me update it, so it's "fair". Prime Ali 2-0 (2 KO) against top 10 GHOAT (against a Liston closer to prime than Schmeling), 3-1 (2 KO) past prime (against prime Frazier and Foreman).

Prime Louis 2-1 (2 KO) against top 20 GHOAT (against prime Baer and slightly past prime Scmeling (in the first) and past prime 2nd), past prime Louis 2-1 (1 KO) (against past prime Walcott and slightly past prime Charles).

Ali's era is regarded as the Golden Age of Heavyweights, Louis' wasn't. Not Joe's fault, but it hinders him nonetheless. You suggest as if, you think Frazier and Norton would have no shot at beating Louis. In fact, Frazier would take Louis to hell and back. Ali himself would have beaten Louis, just like Conn was, but without the stoppage.

Obama
12-19-2009, 07:57 PM
Not fair? Ali was slurring his words and coming off a 2 year layoff when he lost to a prime Holmes and it was counted.

Let me update it, so it's "fair". Prime Ali 2-0 (2 KO) against top 10 GHOAT (against a Liston closer to prime than Schmeling), 3-1 (2 KO) past prime (against prime Frazier and Foreman).

Prime Louis 2-1 (2 KO) against top 20 GHOAT (against prime Baer and slightly past prime Scmeling (in the first) and past prime 2nd), past prime Louis 2-1 (1 KO) (against past prime Walcott and slightly past prime Charles).

Ali's era is regarded as the Golden Age of Heavyweights, Louis' wasn't. Not Joe's fault, but it hinders him nonetheless. You suggest as if, you think Frazier and Norton would have no shot at beating Louis. In fact, Frazier would take Louis to hell and back. Ali himself would have beaten Louis, just like Conn was, but without the stoppage.

Liston was in worse shape than Schmeling. Liston completely fell off the wagon. His performances were disgraceful, didn't take a fighter of remotely Ali's caliber to get the job done.

Frazier was as past it as Ali was in the 2nd and 3rd outings. His prime window was short.

I give you Foreman.

Schmeling wasn't past it at all when he beat Louis. If anything, Louis wasn't prime yet. Not to mention Schmeling used the help of the great Jack Johnson to get the job done. Johnson helped him out of a personal vendetta against Louis.

Walcott was prime when Louis beat him, age has nothing to do with it. He was much better then as opposed to when he was young. Charles was prime too, just not at his best weight (He's a top 2 LHW).

donkim
12-19-2009, 08:56 PM
So "no working pulse" isn't as bad as shot? :liar:



Silly dunce.No it isn't.Shot is what Jack Sharkey and Primo Carnera were at the time,lack of pulse is what Jim Braddock suffered when he faced Louis and he still knocked Louis down :dunce:




You'll alt your way to rigging the results before that, troll.


Speaking of rigging

Since when is vaseline used for butt sex.

Obama
12-19-2009, 10:17 PM
Silly dunce.No it isn't.Shot is what Jack Sharkey and Primo Carnera were at the time,lack of pulse is what Jim Braddock suffered when he faced Louis and he still knocked Louis down :dunce:


Primo was not shot. Just a year before he met Louis he beat Loughran, a fight which you've asserted was not fixed.

psychoboy
12-29-2009, 09:51 PM
Over: Juanma Lopez

Under: Vic Darchinyan

XionComrade
09-19-2010, 02:10 AM
Mike ****ing Tyson, really wasn't that good at all...
Roy Jones
Floyd Mayweather
Joe Calzaghe
Jack Dempsey He was great, but should not be put up against more recent boxers...Throw that little ****er in a street fight though and he will probably eat the corpse
Rocky Marciano Both overrated in ways and underrated in ways
James Toney(As a heavyweight) No, just no
Michael ****ing Spinks how did he get to fight Tyson again?

JAB5239
09-19-2010, 02:37 AM
Mike ****ing Tyson, really wasn't that good at all...
Roy Jones
Floyd Mayweather
Joe Calzaghe
Jack Dempsey He was great, but should not be put up against more recent boxers...Throw that little ****er in a street fight though and he will probably eat the corpse
Rocky Marciano Both overrated in ways and underrated in ways
James Toney(As a heavyweight) No, just no
Michael ****ing Spinks how did he get to fight Tyson again?

Spinks should never be considered over rated. He probably beat the best crop of fighters in the best light heavyweight era. He then went on to beat an ATG Holmes in 2 close fights. The man shouldn't be judged by one fight with Tyson.

Greatest1942
09-19-2010, 03:25 AM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.


There are lots of Actual greats in your list....NOt overrated ones
Please tell me why are Pep and Benny Leonard overrated? Obviously you know nothing of their career to dish these two ATGs. They are actually rated too low by some people who think they know...For actual historians they rank pretty highly.

JAB5239
09-19-2010, 03:48 AM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.


I must have missed Leonard the first time around. Can you name a lightweight who fought a better resume of fighters?

Tiozzo
09-19-2010, 08:30 PM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.


you're ajoke, some of the names there aren't even debattable :****you::liar:

McGoorty
07-27-2011, 11:08 AM
Naseem Hamed
Joe Calaghe
Rocky Marciano
Julio Cesar Chavez Sr and Jr
Just to name a few.
OMG,....... Not Rocky.

McGoorty
07-27-2011, 11:16 AM
In the order they came to mind:

Floyd Mayweather, Jr.
Wladimir Klitschko
Lennox Lewis
Wilfred Benitez
Benny Leonard
Willie Pep
Sugar Ray Leonard
Pernell Whitaker
Evander Holyfield
Roy Jones, Jr.

Oh no, Not the Great Pep, I've seen everything now. AND BENNY LEONARD,......... Do you look at their records ?