View Full Version : Marciano considered a heavy hitter?


PeterTheGreat
10-12-2009, 05:11 AM
I mean back in rockys time they used 6 ounce gloves, so I guess he was a heavy hitter in his day. But now? Idk compared to all the heavy hitters after him, I dont think he is a heavy hitter now.

BEEHOP
10-12-2009, 05:51 AM
Agreed, John Ruiz hits much harder.

sonnyboyx2
10-12-2009, 06:14 AM
I mean back in rockys time they used 6 ounce gloves, so I guess he was a heavy hitter in his day. But now? Idk compared to all the heavy hitters after him, I dont think he is a heavy hitter now.

Marciano was a murderous puncher

T3dBundy
10-12-2009, 07:20 AM
i think dempsey,joe louis,tyson,wladimir were/are much harder punchers than rocky ever was.
but rocky had great stamina, and could threw 15 rounds long powerpunches.
soon or later his opponents were hurt.
if rocky would have fought sonny liston in 55, he would be 49-1 now.
he was smart to retire without getting beat by the big bear :D
nightmare for the rock to fight someone with a reach of 84".

Leakbeak
10-12-2009, 07:22 AM
I woulod say he was a good puncher but also an overrated bum:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195982

sonnyboyx2
10-12-2009, 08:01 AM
i think dempsey,joe louis,tyson,wladimir were/are much harder punchers than rocky ever was.
but rocky had great stamina, and could threw 15 rounds long powerpunches.
soon or later his opponents were hurt.
if rocky would have fought sonny liston in 55, he would be 49-1 now.
he was smart to retire without getting beat by the big bear :D
nightmare for the rock to fight someone with a reach of 84".
86" reach was what Liston had

TheGreatA
10-12-2009, 09:46 AM
i think dempsey,joe louis,tyson,wladimir were/are much harder punchers than rocky ever was.
but rocky had great stamina, and could threw 15 rounds long powerpunches.
soon or later his opponents were hurt.
if rocky would have fought sonny liston in 55, he would be 49-1 now.
he was smart to retire without getting beat by the big bear :D
nightmare for the rock to fight someone with a reach of 84".

Liston was struggling with light heavyweights like Marty Marshall in 1955. He was still very crude and amateurish at that point, until coming back from jail in 1958 when Marciano was already long retired.

Dempsey admitted that Rocky was a harder puncher than he was.

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mickey malone
10-12-2009, 09:47 AM
Rocky's thing was to wear down opponents with non stop numbing blows, and YES, he was a hard & relentless hitter with both hands.. However, I wouldn't say he had early one shot killing power like Liston, Tyson or Foreman..

A fight between Liston and Marciano would have been legendary.. Had that been the Rock's 50th fight, I think he may have retired with a blemish.. Prime for prime though, I'd back Marciano to take his heart..

Princemanspopa
10-12-2009, 03:38 PM
big bad Charles "Sonny" Liston would have bludgeoned Marciano,I can't think of a greater mismatch than Sonny Liston against Louis,Frazier,Dempsey and Marciano especially.




Prime for prime though, I'd back Marciano to take his heart..


An obvious dig at Liston here,guess what Malone? Liston wasn't in his prime against Cassius Clay.Prime Sonny Liston didn't quit and he would never even be in a position to quit against Marciano.

mickey malone
10-12-2009, 05:44 PM
big bad Charles "Sonny" Liston would have bludgeoned Marciano,I can't think of a greater mismatch than Sonny Liston against Louis,Frazier,Dempsey and Marciano especially.







An obvious dig at Liston here,guess what Malone? Liston wasn't in his prime against Cassius Clay.Prime Sonny Liston didn't quit and he would never even be in a position to quit against Marciano.
The thread's about Marciano, you spanner.. At what point did I bring Clay into it?.... But now you come to mention it lol, I'll play your silly guessing game & assume that you think Liston was prime when he beat Patterson the 1st time, but not prime when he lost the 1st time to Clay?

Yaman
10-12-2009, 08:30 PM
Rocky put his entire body into the punches, and had the same power for 15 rounds long. Yeah, he absolutely deserves the recognition for his power and is IMO one of the hardest hitters ever.

Princemanspopa
10-12-2009, 09:00 PM
The thread's about Marciano, you spanner.. At what point did I bring Clay into it?.... But now you come to mention it lol, I'll play your silly guessing game & assume that you think Liston was prime when he beat Patterson the 1st time, but not prime when he lost the 1st time to Clay?

Now you're making assumptions malone,very typical of you.No Liston wasn't in his prime against Patterson or Clay,anybody who has followed his career would know this,but I didn't expect anything less from you,you've only seen Liston's fights against Patterson and Clay.

ThegreatA brought up Liston in an attempt to discredit him and you followed it up by questioning Liston's heart.


Read your own posts you clodge.

TheGreatA
10-12-2009, 09:16 PM
Now you're making assumptions malone,very typical of you.No Liston wasn't in his prime against Patterson or Clay,anybody who has followed his career would know this,but I didn't expect anything less from you,you've only seen Liston's fights against Patterson and Clay.

ThegreatA brought up Liston in an attempt to discredit him and you followed it up by questioning Liston's heart.


Read your own posts you clodge.

I didn't attempt to discredit Sonny Liston. I stated facts, he was green and nowhere near to being a contender for Marciano's title in 1955.

I believe Liston would give Rocky a beating at his best but saying Marciano ducked him is revisionist history. He didn't make his mark until 1958-1959 when Marciano was long retired.

them_apples
10-12-2009, 09:52 PM
I mean back in rockys time they used 6 ounce gloves, so I guess he was a heavy hitter in his day. But now? Idk compared to all the heavy hitters after him, I dont think he is a heavy hitter now.

I didnt think they used 6 oz gloves..

Maybe 8's or 10's at HW

Eitherway, I think he was a solid puncher with a ton of stamina. I don't think he was a huge puncher though.

The man was a very, VERY small heavyweight, although strong I think his small size is what allowed him to keep going and not tire. The mans reach is 67" which is the same as Miguel Cotto, his chest was smaller than Juan Manuel Marquez'

Benny Leonard
10-12-2009, 10:24 PM
I didnt think they used 6 oz gloves..

Maybe 8's or 10's at HW

Eitherway, I think he was a solid puncher with a ton of stamina. I don't think he was a huge puncher though.

The man was a very, VERY small heavyweight, although strong I think his small size is what allowed him to keep going and not tire. The mans reach is 67" which is the same as Miguel Cotto, his chest was smaller than Juan Manuel Marquez'

8oz gloves. Not sure with all fights but I do remember watching some of the Joe Louis fight footage(s) and hearing the commentator mention that Joe is wearing 8oz gloves...as well as hearing it on other fights from back then. I think 10oz gloves are a new thing. 10oz gloves also bother me because now we saw Vegas move the glove size up even in the lower-weight division, like the WW division on up. Not sure if that is mandatory still but it is not something I like. Gloves shouldn't be higher than 8oz for a fight. This is a fight, not sparring. If anything, lower weight classes should have the choice to wear 6-8oz gloves...with the HWs being 8oz.

Stamina:
Besides being incredibly conditioned, Rocky stayed relaxed when fighting...that helps stamina. But yes, I do agree that weight had something to do with it as well. Rocky was not a big 200+ pound HW...he was more like a modern LH (who comes in at 185+ by fight-time). To compare his stamina, it is best to compare it with others around his weight and not the 200+ pound HWs. Either way, he was superb.

We also have to remember that stamina can be depleted based on the opponent's ability to apply pressure and punches on you. Someone like a prime Foreman could take the steam out of you with his body punches which is also why I don't agree with posters that say, "All you have to do is last to this round and then you can take this opponent." Well, only true if you haven't taken a lot of hits yourself and still have the stamina to do it because one or several of those blows could have affected your stamina.
Here is a quick example: Margarito had very good stamina but I think that big shot to the mid-section early from Shane depleted Margarito fast and he never recovered...and then was worn down by Shane's attack.
Smaller guys can also be worn down by fighting bigger, stronger, heavier opponents that know how to use their weight and strength to their advantage.


For Power: I don't think Marciano had the power of a Foreman or Shavers.
People have to remember that he threw a lot of punches for a reason...he wore them down...unless someone wants to say that he rarely landed out of those 80+ or so punches he was said to throw a round. It's not like he was a fighter that was holding back with his power either like some fighters do to just box and pick you off.
He did have power though, no question about that.

louis54
10-12-2009, 11:30 PM
liston and marciano almost went at it int the sixties. liston told marciano he would have whipped him in a wise guy manner and marciano said, really well lets see right after this interview, ill get my gear right now and well see right now, im seriuos. they had to hustle liston away from marciano.

Benny Leonard
10-12-2009, 11:45 PM
liston and marciano almost went at it int the sixties. liston told marciano he would have whipped him in a wise guy manner and marciano said, really well lets see right after this interview, ill get my gear right now and well see right now, im seriuos. they had to hustle liston away from marciano.

Yeah, I read about that too. There is an article that mentioned it. Can't remember if it was actually in the S.I. vault or something else.

I think Marciano would have been way over his head and pride got in the way.

Liston's team weren't going to let him get in any tustle with Marciano because of the Mob...is what my guess is. Plus the perception of it to the public (especially in that era).

0Rooster4Life0
10-13-2009, 02:52 AM
Rocky was a fantastic Puncher,

he didnt have a Punch Like George Foreman, or a Sonny Liston

His Power Was more like a clubbing punch, He would Beat You down.

the morning after a fight you are usally Sore on the face arms and Torso.

When you fight rocky you wake up the next morning and feel like you have been put through a meat tenderizer, You would Hurt From the top of your head down to the bottom of your feet.


To Answer the Q, Is he a Heavyhitter? Ofcourse He Is.

mickey malone
10-13-2009, 05:36 AM
Now you're making assumptions malone,very typical of you.No Liston wasn't in his prime against Patterson or Clay,anybody who has followed his career would know this,but I didn't expect anything less from you,you've only seen Liston's fights against Patterson and Clay.

ThegreatA brought up Liston in an attempt to discredit him and you followed it up by questioning Liston's heart.


Read your own posts you clodge.
I know bundles about Liston, but there's not much point in discussing them with you, because YOU will ASSUME that I've consulted BOXREC, which is your favourite accusation isn't it?... Universally handed out to all who disagree with you..

However, the truth is that Sonny DID have 2 dubious fights with Clay, and YES, I would question his heart against a dynamo like Marciano..
As good as Liston was, he wasn't great.. I'd say he peaked around the time he KO'd Folley, but other than Folley & Patterson who did he beat?... Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, who had already lost to Patterson, and a past prime Nino Valdez..

Hardly murderers row is it?

Princemanspopa
10-13-2009, 07:52 PM
However, the truth is that Sonny DID have 2 dubious fights with Clay, and YES, I would question his heart against a dynamo like Marciano..
As good as Liston was, he wasn't great.. I'd say he peaked around the time he KO'd Folley, but other than Folley & Patterson who did he beat?... Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, who had already lost to Patterson, and a past prime Nino Valdez..

Hardly murderers row is it?

I ask this,why do you insist on making yourself look like a prat? Liston beat Machen four years before Floyd had fought him.Considering how much you frequent Boxrec,I would have assumed that you would have known this already.

Cleveland Williams,Zora Folley,Floyd Patterson,Eddie Machen were all top heavyweights with a working pulse when they fought Liston.Can you say the same for Rocky Marciano's resume?

Don't try and cut down Sonny Liston's resume and accomplishment,it's quite clear you know nothing about the man,the fighter and legacy of this legitimate all time great.

JAB5239
10-13-2009, 09:14 PM
I ask this,why do you insist on making yourself look like a prat? Liston beat Machen four years before Floyd had fought him.Considering how much you frequent Boxrec,I would have assumed that you would have known this already.

Cleveland Williams,Zora Folley,Floyd Patterson,Eddie Machen were all top heavyweights with a working pulse when they fought Liston.Can you say the same for Rocky Marciano's resume?

Don't try and cut down Sonny Liston's resume and accomplishment,it's quite clear you know nothing about the man,the fighter and legacy of this legitimate all time great.

Maybe you should run to the good karma thread and beg for green. Completely red after 13 posts? Bwaaahhaahaahhaa!!!!!!!

Ziggy Stardust
10-13-2009, 10:01 PM
Maybe you should run to the good karma thread and beg for green. Completely red after 13 posts? Bwaaahhaahaahhaa!!!!!!!

Damn straight! I smacked him with red the moment he slithered back out from under his rock.

Poet

sleazyfellow
10-13-2009, 10:19 PM
Damn straight! I smacked him with red the moment he slithered back out from under his rock.

Poet

I havent hit him yet, I wont bother to do it again, since he comes right back.

On topic though, yes, marciano was a hard hitter, but as a puncher he did little to set up punches, he just wore his opponents down with a volume of hard shots. Frazier did the same, but he did better at setting up his punches.

The Iron Man
10-14-2009, 12:04 AM
He was knocking people the **** out, thats why he is considerd as a heavy hitter!!

mickey malone
10-14-2009, 07:39 AM
I ask this,why do you insist on making yourself look like a prat? Liston beat Machen four years before Floyd had fought him.Considering how much you frequent Boxrec,I would have assumed that you would have known this already.

Cleveland Williams,Zora Folley,Floyd Patterson,Eddie Machen were all top heavyweights with a working pulse when they fought Liston.Can you say the same for Rocky Marciano's resume?

Don't try and cut down Sonny Liston's resume and accomplishment,it's quite clear you know nothing about the man,the fighter and legacy of this legitimate all time great.
Big deal.. I made a mistake with regard to Patterson Vs Machen which prooves that I haven't got my head burried in Boxrec.. But the facts remain the same, Williams, Folley & Machen were all fairly mediocre contenders.. Liston never fought a Lyle, Quarry or Shavers did he?..

Williams was known to be chinny, Folley had built up a 50 something record on bums, and prior to Liston, was beaten by the limited Henry Cooper.. Machen lacked power, & was never going to trouble someone like Liston..

Liston's resume as champ amounted to two 1 round KO's of the much smaller and weaker chinned Patterson, and after Clay, he lost to Leotis Martin & beat Chuck Wepner..
Sonny had a good resume, but nothing great, and in my opinion, would not be able to thwart a prime and rampaging Marciano..

Benny Leonard
10-14-2009, 07:41 AM
He was knocking people the **** out, thats why he is considerd as a heavy hitter!!

Short and to the point :fing02:

JAB5239
10-14-2009, 08:23 AM
Big deal.. I made a mistake with regard to Patterson Vs Machen which prooves that I haven't got my head burried in Boxrec.. But the facts remain the same, Williams, Folley & Machen were all fairly mediocre contenders.. Liston never fought a Lyle, Quarry or Shavers did he?..

Williams was known to be chinny, Folley had built up a 50 something record on bums, and prior to Liston, was beaten by the limited Henry Cooper.. Machen lacked power, & was never going to trouble someone like Liston..

Liston's resume as champ amounted to two 1 round KO's of the much smaller and weaker chinned Patterson, and after Clay, he lost to Leotis Martin & beat Chuck Wepner..
Sonny had a good resume, but nothing great, and in my opinion, would not be able to thwart a prime and rampaging Marciano..

Liston ducked Mac Foster.

masta
10-14-2009, 09:26 AM
Rocky would always try to go for a knockout but before that would happen he would wear his opponent down. Sometimes he would hurt his opponents arm so badly that they couldn't punch or defend themselves for the rest of the fight.

Rocky also had that one punch knockout power. Just look at what he did to Walcott in their first fight. And 43 knockouts in 49 fights is amazing.

TheGreatA
10-14-2009, 10:22 AM
Big deal.. I made a mistake with regard to Patterson Vs Machen which prooves that I haven't got my head burried in Boxrec.. But the facts remain the same, Williams, Folley & Machen were all fairly mediocre contenders.. Liston never fought a Lyle, Quarry or Shavers did he?..

Williams was known to be chinny, Folley had built up a 50 something record on bums, and prior to Liston, was beaten by the limited Henry Cooper.. Machen lacked power, & was never going to trouble someone like Liston..

Liston's resume as champ amounted to two 1 round KO's of the much smaller and weaker chinned Patterson, and after Clay, he lost to Leotis Martin & beat Chuck Wepner..
Sonny had a good resume, but nothing great, and in my opinion, would not be able to thwart a prime and rampaging Marciano..

I'm not so sure about Williams, Folley, Machen being "mediocre" compared to Lyle, Shavers & Quarry. In fact I think the latter get overrated while the former get underrated.

Machen early on was a puncher, until running into the fists of Ingemar Johansson. From then on he became a defensive specialist. Even at an old age he was good enough to beat a younger, undefeated Jerry Quarry.

His undefeated run before losing to Johansson was very impressive in my opinion, with wins over contenders Nino Valdes, Hurricane Jackson, Bob Baker, Johnny Summerlin, Joey Maxim, John Holman and a draw with Folley.

Folley was one of the best textbook boxers at the time, and avoided by all young contenders. If not for a suspect chin, he could have been a champ. The first Cooper fight was a bit of a hometown decision in my opinion, and he went onto destroy Cooper in a rematch.

During his 17 year career he scored wins over Eddie Machen, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo, Nino Valdes, Wayne Bethea Doug Jones, Bob Foster, Bob Cleroux, Mike DeJohn, Henry Cooper, Henry Clark... That's a very solid list of contenders.

Cleveland Williams was the big puncher of his time. He was avoided and didn't get too many fights but he did KO Ernie Terrell, the only time Terrell was KO'd aside from his very last fight. Most observers thought he had the better of Machen and Terrell in the rematch but he didn't receive the decision. He was about to fight Terrell again for the WBA version of the heavyweight title, until being shot by a police officer and nearly dying. He was never the same after that.

On film it's clear that he had awesome speed and power and he also had no stamina problems, unlike a certain Earnie Shavers.

Lyle, Quarry and Shavers were a solid bunch of contenders but they get overrated due to their association with Ali.

Princemanspopa
10-14-2009, 01:39 PM
Malone is clearly trolling at this point and has been doing so or quite a while now.I assume he thinks this is the only way to counter my arguments,trolling the troll(even though I am clearly not a troll).

It doesn't work Malone,simple facts are easy to check up on and you made a stupid claim and it turned out to be completely off the mark and not even close.

You still haven't explained how Rocky Marciano has a greater resume than Charles "Sonny" Liston


And in response to TheGreatA,you claim that Lyle, Quarry and Shavers are overrated "due to their association with Ali",well can you now finally admit that Joe frazier is also overrated due to his association with Ali?




Maybe you should run to the good karma thread and beg for green. Completely red after 13 posts? Bwaaahhaahaahhaa!!!!!!!


You really need to get over me Gabby.I know you are still hurting like a victim of a verbal raping but like I already told you,it's getting very worrying now.I really do hope that Poet hasn't made that much of an impression on you.

Chr0nic
10-14-2009, 01:45 PM
he punched alot that might have somethin to do with ko'ing peeps past prime

mickey malone
10-15-2009, 05:40 AM
Malone is clearly trolling at this point and has been doing so or quite a while now.I assume he thinks this is the only way to counter my arguments,trolling the troll(even though I am clearly not a troll).

It doesn't work Malone,simple facts are easy to check up on and you made a stupid claim and it turned out to be completely off the mark and not even close.

You still haven't explained how Rocky Marciano has a greater resume than Charles "Sonny" Liston


And in response to TheGreatA,you claim that Lyle, Quarry and Shavers are overrated "due to their association with Ali",well can you now finally admit that Joe frazier is also overrated due to his association with Ali?






You really need to get over me Gabby.I know you are still hurting like a victim of a verbal raping but like I already told you,it's getting very worrying now.I really do hope that Poet hasn't made that much of an impression on you.
Marciano's resume wasn't a lot better than Liston's, but he was never KO'd and never quit.. He never disappointed his fans in the way Liston disgracefully did..
What we have to remember here, is that Sonny didn't like getting hit, and that Marciano didn't give a fuk..

mickey malone
10-15-2009, 06:01 AM
I'm not so sure about Williams, Folley, Machen being "mediocre" compared to Lyle, Shavers & Quarry. In fact I think the latter get overrated while the former get underrated.

Machen early on was a puncher, until running into the fists of Ingemar Johansson. From then on he became a defensive specialist. Even at an old age he was good enough to beat a younger, undefeated Jerry Quarry.

His undefeated run before losing to Johansson was very impressive in my opinion, with wins over contenders Nino Valdes, Hurricane Jackson, Bob Baker, Johnny Summerlin, Joey Maxim, John Holman and a draw with Folley.

Folley was one of the best textbook boxers at the time, and avoided by all young contenders. If not for a suspect chin, he could have been a champ. The first Cooper fight was a bit of a hometown decision in my opinion, and he went onto destroy Cooper in a rematch.

During his 17 year career he scored wins over Eddie Machen, Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo, Nino Valdes, Wayne Bethea Doug Jones, Bob Foster, Bob Cleroux, Mike DeJohn, Henry Cooper, Henry Clark... That's a very solid list of contenders.

Cleveland Williams was the big puncher of his time. He was avoided and didn't get too many fights but he did KO Ernie Terrell, the only time Terrell was KO'd aside from his very last fight. Most observers thought he had the better of Machen and Terrell in the rematch but he didn't receive the decision. He was about to fight Terrell again for the WBA version of the heavyweight title, until being shot by a police officer and nearly dying. He was never the same after that.

On film it's clear that he had awesome speed and power and he also had no stamina problems, unlike a certain Earnie Shavers.

Lyle, Quarry and Shavers were a solid bunch of contenders but they get overrated due to their association with Ali.
Informative as ever, A.. Maybe I've appeared to underrate them in order to get my argument across... But I'd still have a stack of money on my 3 to beat his 3, any day of the week..

Spartacus Sully
10-15-2009, 06:32 AM
Marciano not so much a heavy hitter more so a powerful hitter. where when you get hit you feel your muscles being crushed between his fists and the bone.

on a side note marciano would have eaten listons still beating heart right out of his chest.

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 07:24 AM
Informative as ever, A.. Maybe I've appeared to underrate them in order to get my argument across... But I'd still have a stack of money on my 3 to beat his 3, any day of the week..

I think Lyle and Shavers would KO Folley but Folley would possibly outbox Quarry, after all Jimmy Ellis did. Lyle and Shavers would have problems with Machen for the same reasons as they had trouble with Jimmy Young and a young Quarry did lose to an older Machen. Cleveland Williams vs Lyle/Shavers could go either way, Quarry might have what it takes to beat him since he was good against punchers although none as fast as Williams.

People always say the 1950's contenders were horrible but I think it's mostly due to people not having seen too much film of them.

Look at Bob Baker for example (shorter man, all white trunks), fighting against the sloppy but hard-hitting Nino Valdes:

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I think he could hold his own against contenders of any era.

Benny Leonard
10-15-2009, 07:33 AM
Marciano's resume wasn't a lot better than Liston's, but he was never KO'd and never quit.. He never disappointed his fans in the way Liston disgracefully did..
What we have to remember here, is that Sonny didn't like getting hit, and that Marciano didn't give a fuk..

Fighters are more likely to disappoint their fans when they are past their prime. We never saw Marciano show up out of shape because he was always in shape which was a credit to him...and we never saw him slide off because he retired right before the great fall when fighters become more vulnerable on the slide from their prime. And for never being knocked out...well, he didn't fight big HWs like Ali in their prime. It's also about who you fought. Frazier was knocked out by Foreman, someone Marciano most likely gets KO'd against as well. I even think Liston could most likely knock out Marciano.
It's about who you fight and how dangerous they are.


Marciano also didn't fight the fighters Liston fought.

I would say it is much easier fighting past prime Light-Heavyweights that were already defeated many times over including being knocked out in their past than fresher fighters, especially bigger fighters that are good.

Spartacus Sully
10-15-2009, 07:40 AM
I would say it is much easier fighting past prime Light-Heavyweights that were already defeated many times over including being knocked out in their past.
It is certainly a confidence booster to fight someone like that.

like moore and um...um....um.....um.....

but he did fight and beat former/current world undisputed heavy weight title holders...walcolt, charles, and louis

how many did liston beat? 1? to get his title then lost it after how many defense's? 1?

Benny Leonard
10-15-2009, 07:42 AM
like moore and um...um....um.....um.....

but he did fight former/current world undisputed heavy weight title holders...walcolt, charles, and louis

Ezzard Charles was a LH who won the HW crown because most of the fighters were small in that area. And Louis was SHOT, Charles was past his prime and had already been knocked out by Walcott who was also knocked out years before by a past prime Joe Louis. Charles, Walcott, and Charles were also under 200 pound HWs. All of them went through wars before facing Marciano.

Spartacus Sully
10-15-2009, 07:48 AM
but they were all still undisputed heavy weight title holders at one point in time.

where as Liston only fought and beat Patterson then almost immediately proceeded to lose his title.

im not saying Marciano's resume was much better im just saying it was better.

as far as power, stamina, and recovery liston dosnt even touch on what marciano had and after 5 rounds i dont even think linston would know what to do anymore because regardless of what he did it wouldnt stop the rock.

Benny Leonard
10-15-2009, 07:58 AM
but they were all still undisputed heavy weight title holders at one point in time.

where as Liston only fought and beat Patterson then almost immediately proceeded to lose his title.

Look at the era...that's a big part of it. And Louis was just a name on the resume. That wasn't JOE LOUIS. Wlad can go around beating up right now Ali, Frazier, Norton, etc. to get HOF fighters on his resume but it won't mean anything. Just names.

Again, under 200 pound fighters that started below 185 as well...except for maybe Walcott...not sure with that one. And Walcott's career was up and down.


Liston lost his title to Cassius Clay/Muhamamd Ali...the Greatest HW fighter of All Time and maybe #2 under SRR as the greatest Fighter boxing has had.
Liston was also past his prime and was avoided until Patterson finally gave him his shot. Liston lived a hard life and was always going to wear out quicker.
What age did Rocky retire?
Liston's age is disputed and he could have been about 36 (or something like that) by the time he fought Clay. And again, he fought possibly the Greatest HW of All Time.



Marciano doesn't get past a Prime Liston's jab. Lison is a Big HW compared to the rest of Marciano's opponents. Bigger, Stronger, more Powerful, and could take a better punch in his prime than the big name opponents Marciano fought. Marciano never fought someone like Sonny Liston.

mickey malone
10-15-2009, 08:05 AM
like moore and um...um....um.....um.....

but he did fight and beat former/current world undisputed heavy weight title holders...walcolt, charles, and louis

how many did liston beat? 1? to get his title then lost it after how many defense's? 1?
Says it all really!

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 09:26 AM
Unfortunately Liston didn't have the chance of getting Johansson and Marciano in the ring with him. As an older man he would have also had a fair chance against a young Frazier whose management did not want to put Joe against him.

I imagine he would have beaten an older Rocky and Ingemar Johansson, who retired instead of facing Liston in 1963.

He could have also beaten an older Ezzard Charles to a pulp but I'm glad that fight didn't happen.

mickey malone
10-15-2009, 02:29 PM
Unfortunately Liston didn't have the chance of getting Johansson and Marciano in the ring with him. As an older man he would have also had a fair chance against a young Frazier whose management did not want to put Joe against him.

I imagine he would have beaten an older Rocky and Ingemar Johansson, who retired instead of facing Liston in 1963.

He could have also beaten an older Ezzard Charles to a pulp but I'm glad that fight didn't happen.
I agree, Liston would have beaten the Marciano who fought Moore, and he would have also crushed Johansson, who I believe retired early rather than face him..
Your right about Charles to.. My argument was solely based on a prime for prime basis, in which I think Marciano would come out on top..
My reasoning is fairly simple.. The Rock had a much hungrier appetite for sustained violence, than anyone Liston ever engaged, & I'd say he's only 2nd to Ali in the granite chin department.. Sonny was used to hitting guys who stayed hit, where as Marciano would get back up & recover quickly.. Liston would surely lose heart, & get clobbered in the later rounds..

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 02:34 PM
I agree, Liston would have beaten the Marciano who fought Moore, and he would have also crushed Johansson, who I believe retired early rather than face him..
Your right about Charles to.. My argument was solely based on a prime for prime basis, in which I think Marciano would come out on top..
My reasoning is fairly simple.. The Rock had a much hungrier appetite for sustained violence, than anyone Liston ever engaged, & I'd say he's only 2nd to Ali in the granite chin department.. Sonny was used to hitting guys who stayed hit, where as Marciano would get back up & recover quickly.. Liston would surely lose heart, & get clobbered in the later rounds..

I think Liston's style would be poison for Marciano but obviously there's no way to prove this. Liston's courage is suspect due to the Ali fights but I believe he was a very determined man in his prime.

mickey malone
10-15-2009, 03:09 PM
I think Liston's style would be poison for Marciano but obviously there's no way to prove this. Liston's courage is suspect due to the Ali fights but I believe he was a very determined man in his prime.
I know he won a bout with a broken jaw, but had that injury been inflicted by Marciano, I doubt he'd have made it to the final bell..

TheGreatA
10-15-2009, 03:26 PM
I know he won a bout with a broken jaw, but had that injury been inflicted by Marciano, I doubt he'd have made it to the final bell..

I don't believe so either but then again I tend to believe that if Marciano were to break anyone's jaw, including Muhammad Ali, they would have a hard time going the distance, and very little chance of actually winning.

I was impressed how Liston came back from the first round beating Cleveland Williams inflected on him. He was really dominated in that round. The broken nose was pouring blood but Liston kept pouring it on and eventually caught Williams.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/Signaturet/listonwilliams.jpg

Against Eddie Machen, Liston could not catch the clever Machen with any solid blows and the referee was on him for every punch he threw to the body. Liston responded by putting on more and more pressure every round and won a convincing if not the most impressive decision.

Benny Leonard
10-15-2009, 03:34 PM
I agree, Liston would have beaten the Marciano who fought Moore, and he would have also crushed Johansson, who I believe retired early rather than face him..
Your right about Charles to.. My argument was solely based on a prime for prime basis, in which I think Marciano would come out on top..
My reasoning is fairly simple.. The Rock had a much hungrier appetite for sustained violence, than anyone Liston ever engaged, & I'd say he's only 2nd to Ali in the granite chin department.. Sonny was used to hitting guys who stayed hit, where as Marciano would get back up & recover quickly.. Liston would surely lose heart, & get clobbered in the later rounds..

Two things I've always wondered and anybody can answer this:


How do we know where Rocky***8217;s heart is in strength (since people jump on the greatest heart of all time talk), or maybe I should stick more with confidence (even though I think they are connected) since he never fought a young fighter that was 200+ pounds that was good and undefeated (who could test him)...especially a fighter that was say, 6'3+, 200+ pounds?
For example: How do we know how he reacts to a fighter like a Prime Ali...or a Prime Joe Frazier...or a Prime George Foreman and so on?


Chin: Rocky never fought guys like Shavers, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, etc. so how do we know how "great" his chin was compared to others that fought the bigger guys?




Edit name/spelling....Rocky.

mickey malone
10-16-2009, 07:39 AM
Two things I've always wondered and anybody can answer this:


How do we know where Ricky***8217;s heart is in strength (since people jump on the greatest heart of all time talk), or maybe I should stick more with confidence (even though I think they are connected) since he never fought a young fighter that was 200+ pounds that was good and undefeated (who could test him)...especially a fighter that was say, 6'3+, 200+ pounds?
For example: How do we know how he reacts to a fighter like a Prime Ali...or a Prime Joe Frazier...or a Prime George Foreman and so on?


Chin: Rocky never fought guys like Shavers, Frazier, Foreman, Lyle, Norton, etc. so how do we know how "great" his chin was compared to others that fought the bigger guys?




BBL
Yeah, Answer to the 1st question, would have to be: Superior conditioning

Answer to question 2, I'd say he'd probably lose to prime 200+ guys like Holmes, Ali, Foreman, Lewis etc.. Liston, would be the best he could beat.. I don't think height really comes into it.. Liston, for the record was just a half inch over 6ft..

I'd pick both Liston & Marciano to triumph over Shavers, Lyle and Norton..