View Full Version : Did Liston take a dive in Ali 2?


Infern0
10-11-2009, 12:15 AM
opinions please!:feedback:

billionaire
10-11-2009, 12:23 AM
it was a real knockdown you can see on the slow motion.....whether liston shouldve been down for 10 seconds is another story...

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Benny Leonard
10-11-2009, 01:39 AM
I don't think he took a dive. He got hit by a punch he didn't see coming while he was moving in. Ali knocked Williams down backing up so it wasn't unheard of with Ali. Ali was getting strong at this point in time which is a shame since he only had a short while after before he went into exile and then...eh...diminished overall ability...although fights were certainly more interesting when he came back.

Liston looks like his equilibrium was thrown off after the punch landed. I've always thought if it was fixed he would have just stayed down like he was dead instead of rolling around trying to catch his balance to get up.

.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .......

"I think Sonny gave that second fight away [to Muhammad Ali]. I swear. He said, 'No, you win and you lose.' I said, 'In the first round?' " says Liston's widow Geraldine on ESPN Classic's SportsCentury series.

http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Liston_Sonny.html

mickey malone
10-11-2009, 03:37 AM
Good vid!.. Very clearly showing the punch, from a much different angle to the fight I have on tape..

The punch doesn't appear to have KO power, but it does appear to connect on the side of Listons temple.. I know from experience, those kind of shots can switch you off momentaraly, but that's all, so I'm of the opinion that he quit on his back, as opposed to getting KTFO..

sonnyboyx2
10-11-2009, 05:09 AM
i have watched the fight many many times and i always come to the same conclusion that if the `FIX`was in, then it had nothing to do with Muhammad Ali, yet i cannot say the same for referee Jersey Joe Walcott who`s actions leave a lot to be desired... i dont think we will ever know what really happened

Benny Leonard
10-11-2009, 05:18 AM
i have watched the fight many many times and i always come to the same conclusion that if the `FIX`was in, then it had nothing to do with Muhammad Ali, yet i cannot say the same for referee Jersey Joe Walcott who`s actions leave a lot to be desired... i dont think we will ever know what really happened

Can you expound on why?

sonnyboyx2
10-11-2009, 05:28 AM
Can you expound on why?
yes... Walcott walks across the ring to the timekeeper very hesitantly then comes back over and picks up the count on Liston even tho he has been on the floor for around 12 seconds, he does not tell Ali who is standing over Liston shouting `Get up` to go to a neutral corner, he waves the fighters on then stops the fight.. i cannot recall any referee ever doing what Walcott done, IMO if Liston took a dive Walcott was in on it

Benny Leonard
10-11-2009, 05:33 AM
yes... Walcott walks across the ring to the timekeeper very hesitantly then comes back over and picks up the count on Liston even tho he has been on the floor for around 12 seconds, he does not tell Ali who is standing over Liston shouting `Get up` to go to a neutral corner, he waves the fighters on then stops the fight.. i cannot recall any referee ever doing what Walcott done, IMO if Liston took a dive Walcott was in on it

Or maybe it was an inexperienced ref in Walcott?

Ali was jumping around and Walcott was trying to control the crazy man first.

When Liston finally got up, Walcott whipped his gloves to let him fight again but stopped the fight when someone yelled out that Liston was down more than 10 seconds...or something like that.

Mersey
10-11-2009, 05:34 AM
I think it was a dive.

The main reason I think that is Listons actions on the floor. He tried to get back up and then 'rolled' back over. It looked so forced it was unreal.

There is no way Sonny Liston was hurt by that punch IMO.

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4 mins into the vid.

Benny Leonard
10-11-2009, 05:41 AM
I think it was a dive.

The main reason I think that is Listons actions on the floor. He tried to get back up and then 'rolled' back over. It looked so forced it was unreal.

There is no way Sonny Liston was hurt by that punch IMO.

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4 mins into the vid.

But Why would he bother to fake it like that. Do what the rest did...lie down and play dead.

Liston was drunk at that point and was trying to regain his balance. Everything is slow and moving on him so he is trying to focus in regaining his equilibrium. And then he did get back up...so why even try to get up?
Even when he was falling down, he stuck out his arms to break his fall or try to keep his balance to stay up.

At least that is what I think.



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Mersey
10-11-2009, 05:50 AM
But Why would he bother to fake it like that. Do what the rest did...lie down and play dead.

Liston was drunk at that point and was trying to regain his balance. Everything is slow and moving on him so he is trying to focus in regaining his equilibrium. And then he did get back up...so why even try to get up?
Even when he was falling down, he stuck out his arms to break his fall or try to keep his balance to stay up.

At least that is what I think.



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I know, the whole thing is a mystery to me. Why would he do what he did? I have no idea to be honest.

It just doesn't look right when he tries to get up and falls back down again. It's not like he colapses to the ground like Berbick did. He rolls over slowly. Maybe he was trying to make it look more realistic by trying to get up again?

Benny Leonard
10-11-2009, 06:00 AM
I know, the whole thing is a mystery to me. Why would he do what he did? I have no idea to be honest.

It just doesn't look right when he tries to get up and falls back down again. It's not like he colapses to the ground like Berbick did. He rolls over slowly. Maybe he was trying to make it look more realistic by trying to get up again?

Same effect as being drunk...and it could depend on the person.

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mickey malone
10-11-2009, 06:15 AM
yes... Walcott walks across the ring to the timekeeper very hesitantly then comes back over and picks up the count on Liston even tho he has been on the floor for around 12 seconds, he does not tell Ali who is standing over Liston shouting `Get up` to go to a neutral corner, he waves the fighters on then stops the fight.. i cannot recall any referee ever doing what Walcott done, IMO if Liston took a dive Walcott was in on it
Sound account!... And Ali wouldn't be yelling at him to 'Get up' for nothing..

It suggests that Ali himself, did not consider the punch worthy of registering a KO..
It could also be the reason why the follow up left, flew way over the top of a canvas bound Liston, as if to suggest that Ali didn't expect to see him down there..

I don't really have an answer for Walcott's actions.. Just very very odd..
Does anyone know how many fights he officiated in ?

Benny Leonard
10-11-2009, 06:22 AM
Sound account!... And Ali wouldn't be yelling at him to 'Get up' for nothing..

It suggests that Ali himself, did not consider the punch worthy of registering a KO..
It could also be the reason why the follow up left, flew way over the top of a canvas bound Liston, as if to suggest that Ali didn't expect to see him down there..

I don't really have an answer for Walcott's actions.. Just very very odd..
Does anyone know how many fights he officiated in ?

Yes, but how could Ali know that Sonny even saw the punching coming?
It's the punch that you didn't see that hurts you the most, right?

6:37 start to finish
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mickey malone
10-11-2009, 06:44 AM
Ref: Benny Leonard

I agree with regard to not seeing the punch coming, but you don't expect someone like Sonny Liston to roll around like a soccer star..

sonnyboyx2
10-11-2009, 07:23 AM
very strange series of events in this fight and we will never know what really happened, however if you watch the documentary "The Final Round" about George Chuvalo you will see a totally different camera angle to this KO and Chuvalo is in the 3rd row ringside, Chuvalo says the punch would not have squashed a grape, he then gets in the ring and starts argueing and scuffling with Muhammad Ali.. From Chuvalo`s point of view `it was a fix` BTW that Documentary is Fantastic viewing

Benny Leonard
10-11-2009, 09:18 AM
Ref: Benny Leonard

I agree with regard to not seeing the punch coming, but you don't expect someone like Sonny Liston to roll around like a soccer star..

:lol1: very true. I would have found it shocking as well if I was living in that era and I grew up with Liston...but strange and shocking things have happened throughout boxing history.

Maybe age had a part to play in this as well. Liston wasn't exactly "prime" and the ability to react properly can decline with age...as well as the ability to take a punch...especially if not trained properly both mentally and physically.

Yaman
10-11-2009, 11:07 AM
Thanks for the high quality clips being posted. Great stuff.

I don't believe Liston took a dive. But what I still want to know is, I consider dives 10 times worse than stoppage losses. It seems to me like the believers don't.

Stoppage
10-11-2009, 02:53 PM
I think it was fixed. Maybe it was a real knockdown but I don't think it was a real knockout.

Liston almost rose up and then went back down again. Looked as if he was acting, in my opinion. After the count of ten, he got up while Walcott went to check the time. He looked as if was ready to fight again.

We'll never know, for sure, but I think it was fixed.

Obama
10-11-2009, 04:10 PM
No, Liston didn't take a dive. He was waiting for a count so he could maximize his recover time. Walcott didn't give him one so he didn't get up. Then Walcott let's someone else outside of the ring tell him the fight's over and waves it off without counting to 10. Walcott never reffed a fight again. :nonono:

JAB5239
10-11-2009, 06:56 PM
No, Liston didn't take a dive. He was waiting for a count so he could maximize his recover time. Walcott didn't give him one so he didn't get up. Then Walcott let's someone else outside of the ring tell him the fight's over and waves it off without counting to 10. Walcott never reffed a fight again. :nonono:

Exactly. Walcott had no control over this fight and blew it by letting Nat Fliesher make an important, and wrong decision for him.

"Shion"
10-11-2009, 07:02 PM
Lol @ Walcott.

I beleive Liston didn't take a dive, but it was still a good fight. :D

Princemanspopa
10-12-2009, 12:32 AM
Don't discredit Sonny Liston,he's not and idiot and he had been in the game long enough to know how to throw a fight convincingly.

If he were to have taken a dive,then I can assure you,that he was smart enough to have atleast made it look convincing and there was nothing convincing about that knockout,he wasn't hurt,he was embarrassed,made a half assed attempt at getting up and then called it quits only to realise Joe Walcott was an incompetent official and hadn't even bothered to administer a count and then got back to his feet to resume the fight.

People seem to forget that Sonny actually did get back up to continue the fight.


The ever smug old cunt that was Nat Fleischer dropped Sonny Liston from the Ring's top ten list and apparently told him “Frankly, you are the forgotten man.”

Sonny should have held him and slapped him until the old man pissed his pants.....just like Sonny did to that Pro Wrestler who thought he was tough in Las Vegas one time.

Bsquared
10-12-2009, 12:55 AM
No it clearly wasn't a dive but it was not a fight ending knockdown, thats for sure.

sonnyboyx2
10-12-2009, 04:11 AM
a long time ago i read a brilliant article on this fight by the Legendary Boxing writer Peter Wilson, i cannot recall the article word for word but the crux of it was, Liston got himself into tremendous physical shape for the rematch and a couple of weeks before fight night the bout had to be cancelled due to Cassius Clay needing a hernia operation which postponed the fight for around 8 or 9 months, by the time Clay had gotten over the operation he had changed and grew from a boy into a man and at the press conferences Clay looked huge compaired to Liston, on fight night as both fighters was ring centre recieving the final instructions Clay done his "intimidating stare-out" he put his face right up to Listons and started chewing on his mouth piece while looking down into Listons eyes, Sonny was looking up with his bailfull stare but Clay had no fear and the "Bully" in Liston came to haunt him, because like all bullies they have a yellow streak down their back, which Cassius Clay knew... Liston just never fancied the job, he was not in great condition to fight like he had been months earlier before the cancelation, so he took the easy route out and went down.. Clay stood over him and shouted "Get up you yellow ******" and the rest is history... Peter Wilson was there, he covered the fighters and the fight from the moment it was announced and i believe his account... That stare-down by Clay was the most "Chilling" in boxing history, i have it on video and it tells the true tale of this fight.

sleazyfellow
10-12-2009, 04:44 AM
Liston threw the fight IMO, he had taken bombs from Williams before and Ali hit nowhere near as hard as he did.

Of course Ali tried to make it all seem like it was his plan all along after he won in 1 round, but he knew the fight was a farce.

Leakbeak
10-12-2009, 07:23 AM
it was a real knockdown you can see on the slow motion.....whether liston shouldve been down for 10 seconds is another story...

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He said he was waiting for the 8 count, and was later stopped on his feet by the dumb ref. That guy was no Collina!

sonnyboyx2
10-12-2009, 08:07 AM
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/most_feared.html

Excellent read

Special K
10-12-2009, 08:09 AM
it was a dive in my opinion.

larry x
10-13-2009, 04:46 PM
looking at the punch in slow motion..liston was hurt and dazed,,he got hit in the temple with a solid quick shot

boxingbuff
10-13-2009, 07:23 PM
Sonny Liston had one of the best chin's in Heavyweight History.

Watch his fights against hard hitting Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams,who had a murderous left hook.

Ali didn't hit very hard,and there is NO WAY he could KO Sonny Liston,let alone with one punch.

Liston was scared of the death threats from the muslims who said they were going to shoot him.The Mob(Who controled Liston) theatened to kill Muhammad Ali,and people were being searched for fire arms coming to the fight.Boxing writers at ring side where wearing bullet proof vests.Liston had to take a dive or he would have been shot(Or so he believed).

Read Muhammad Ali's book(The Greatest) and listen to his version about this fight,and how he sensed someone was pointing a gun at him in the 1st round.

Liston had a chin of granite,and NO WAY could Ali even knock him down,let alone out.

game20ver
10-14-2009, 10:04 AM
Ok, people get on my back, time to put this to sleep...

There was no fix, if there were Ali, Liston nor Walcott knew about it. The judges? We'll never know.

Walcott simply lost control, he had no buisness in the ring that night, he was far too inexperienced to officiate this high profile match up.

As for the fight, Ali hit Liston with a good shot, it was a flash knockdown, nothing more, but Sonny Liston realized this was the begining of the end, factor in the political issues surrounding this fight, and he wanted no part of it. He quit on his stool in the 1st fight, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't quit again.

Given he did get up to fight again, but only because he felt like a fool rolling around on the floor without being given a proper 10 count by the referee. Good Night, Sleep Tight.

T3dBundy
10-14-2009, 10:27 AM
Liston had a chin of granite,and NO WAY could Ali even knock him down,let alone out.



youtube.com/watch?v=LNdmySLkqyI[/url]


u can hear the punch landing.
the KD wasnt fake, 100%.

i think liston waited for the count and thats why he lost the fight in the first round.
and if u watch the first fight, liston was nearly going down again in round 5 or 6.
ali was all over liston.
liston cheated with some chemical on his gloves to make ali blind, and still couldnt beat him.
i like liston and believe he could beat any heavyweight today with his long arms, but a prime ali ? - no way :D

T3dBundy
10-14-2009, 10:35 AM
fandome.com/video/85762/Muhammad-Ali-vs-Sonny-Liston-I-Part-33


joe louis says that something is wrong with alis eyes.

liston lands so many left hooks and cant even move ali..

Benny Leonard
10-14-2009, 11:43 AM
Ali said Liston helped by running into the punch.

Benncollinsaad
10-14-2009, 01:33 PM
Everybody knows he took a dive. Why else would Ali shout at him to get up??! Its ludicrous to even ask this question. He was on the mob payroll and had to take a dive.