View Full Version : Is Floyd Mayweather Jr an All Time Great?


klipsch speaker
10-06-2009, 09:32 AM
To me his selling points for greatness are his skills relative to other greats.

The problem I have with it is that its hypothetical at best.

Most posters here specially there at NSB are stating that he hypothetically beats a genuine ATG like Roberto Duran or Alexis Arguello.

Some maybe right, others maybe wrong. But at the end of the day it is just that. HYPOTHETICAL.

Where in hell can you find greatness with that?

What say you people?

mickey malone
10-06-2009, 10:12 AM
Yep... Who gets/got hit less???

Nicolino Locche?
Willie Pep?

They're the only 2 in my mind, & neither had a particularly sound offence...

Obama
10-06-2009, 10:58 AM
To me his selling points for greatness are his skills relative to other greats.

The problem I have with it is that its hypothetical at best.

Most posters here specially there at NSB are stating that he hypothetically beats a genuine ATG like Roberto Duran or Alexis Arguello.

Some maybe right, others maybe wrong. But at the end of the day it is just that. HYPOTHETICAL.

Where in hell can you find greatness with that?

What say you people?

I know Floyd beats the ATGs tailor made to lose against him. Stylistically he's a nightmare for the less polished ATGs. How he'd do against SRL, Pernell Whitaker, Willie Pep, Joe Gans, Salvador Sanchez, etc, is a different story. Mayweather has yet to showcase his ability to make polished fighters look bad, much less a polished great fighter (which I wouldn't expect him to make any look bad, a win would be enough).

But he's definitely an ATG. How great? Don't know yet. Might find out later...

1SILVA
10-06-2009, 11:00 AM
To me his selling points for greatness are his skills relative to other greats.

The problem I have with it is that its hypothetical at best.

Most posters here specially there at NSB are stating that he hypothetically beats a genuine ATG like Roberto Duran or Alexis Arguello.

Some maybe right, others maybe wrong. But at the end of the day it is just that. HYPOTHETICAL.

Where in hell can you find greatness with that?

What say you people?

He's an ATG because in his era, you can make a valid argument that he was the greatest fighter of his era. The record speaks for itself

Obama
10-06-2009, 11:04 AM
If Mosley ices Berto at age 38 it puts Mayweather's undefeated record in serious question if the two don't meet before the end of 2010.

He'll prolly fight the winner of Pac/Cotto in March, but that doesn't particularly interest me as I have no doubts he'll be winning. That's not to diminish the win or anything, the winner of Pac/Cotto is unquestionably going to make the HOF.

mickey malone
10-06-2009, 11:50 AM
Whoever can't see that the ****y prick is a particularly unique & offensive radar system, seriously need to go back to the drawing board..

JMM was the housewives favourite, & got to the pinnacle of winning less, but lasting 2 rounds longer than the fat English wanker, Ricky Hatton...
On the strength of what I've seen, Hatton would smash Marquez like an Xmas tree ball ball..

Come again?

Obama
10-06-2009, 11:57 AM
On the strength of what I've seen, Hatton would smash Marquez like an Xmas tree ball ball..

.......................................

IMDAZED
10-06-2009, 12:52 PM
Great fighter, hasn't tested himself in many, many years.

Silencers
10-06-2009, 02:08 PM
Skillwise, he's definitely a great fighter. Resume wise, I don't think so yet, I mean I do think his resume at 135 and below is very, very good, he beat a lot of good to very good fighters there but I think in order for him to reach true greatness, he needs to test himself against the best at the weightclass he's fighting at now, welterweight.

MANGLER
10-06-2009, 02:09 PM
Yea he is.

IMDAZED
10-06-2009, 02:10 PM
Skillwise, he's definitely a great fighter. Resume wise, I don't think so yet, I mean I do think his resume at 135 and below is very, very good, he beat a lot of good to very good fighters there but I think in order for him to reach true greatness, he needs to test himself against the best at the weightclass he's fighting at now, welterweight.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

bojangles1987
10-06-2009, 02:19 PM
Right now, I think he belongs in the 30-50 range, but if he beats Mosley, Cotto, and Pac, there is potential based on how he does it to be easy top 20.

He's never beaten another ATG though, it's hard to really judge how good Mayweather actually is.

Bigchill79
10-06-2009, 02:25 PM
One of the best to ever lace them up fella

Obama
10-06-2009, 02:38 PM
Common myth about Floyd's resume is saying it used to be good but lately it's not. You take away Corrales and Castillo, 2 former top 10 p4p fighters which he beat in their prime, and his resume since is no worse than it was before. In fact it's better. Beating DLH at 154, Judah, and an undefeated Ricky Hatton trump his other wins to be honest. Also, Floyd hasn't fought a BUM (ie a guy who accomplished nothing noteworthy) since Bruseles in early 2005. And the ONLY reason he fought Bruseles was because Cotto's people were interested in fighting Floyd but wanted to throw Cotto's stable mate in their to test the waters first. Cotto actually predicted Bruseles would win the fight. :nonono:

Then of course Floyd did his thing...and the fight never came off. Floyd moved to 147, and somehow then "ducked" Cotto, who to this day has never called him out. :nonono:

IMDAZED
10-06-2009, 02:49 PM
Common myth about Floyd's resume is saying it used to be good but lately it's not. You take away Corrales and Castillo, 2 former top 10 p4p fighters which he beat in their prime, and his resume since is no worse than it was before. In fact it's better. Beating DLH at 154, Judah, and an undefeated Ricky Hatton trump his other wins to be honest. Also, Floyd hasn't fought a BUM (ie a guy who accomplished nothing noteworthy) since Bruseles in early 2005. And the ONLY reason he fought Bruseles was because Cotto's people were interested in fighting Floyd but wanted to throw Cotto's stable mate in their to test the waters first. Cotto actually predicted Bruseles would win the fight. :nonono:

Then of course Floyd did his thing...and the fight never came off. Floyd moved to 147, and somehow then "ducked" Cotto, who to this day has never called him out. :nonono:

Take away Corrales & Castillo and Floyd's whole resume drops about three loads.

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 04:11 PM
He's a great fighter with superb technical skills but I just wish he would pick up the slack and fight better fighters that are actually in his weight class. I think, at this point, he needs to face Mosley, Pacquiao and Cotto.

Other than that, I would say he maybe edges it out as an all-time great.

GJC
10-06-2009, 04:30 PM
Ironic thing is a lot of fighters have their ATG status questioned simply because the opposition in their weight wasn't that strong in their era. Seen Marciano, Bob Foster and Hagler been questioned in that way even though it isn't their fault really they beat who was in front of them.
Mayweather has the opportunity to meet the fighters to test himself and cement his place but doesn't, its a shame.

Obama
10-06-2009, 07:15 PM
Ironic thing is a lot of fighters have their ATG status questioned simply because the opposition in their weight wasn't that strong in their era. Seen Marciano, Bob Foster and Hagler been questioned in that way even though it isn't their fault really they beat who was in front of them.
Mayweather has the opportunity to meet the fighters to test himself and cement his place but doesn't, its a shame.

The man is still prime....I think he has time. Floyd fights for money now, and all the easy big money fights have happened already, save Pacman. People claim now that a Pac fight isn't easy, but after the fight happens, we will hear a different tune guaranteed. Pac will be dismissed as too small and tailor made for Floyd one way or another.

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 07:17 PM
The man is still prime....I think he has time. Floyd fights for money now, and all the easy big money fights have happened already, save Pacman. People claim now that a Pac fight isn't easy, but after the fight happens, we will hear a different tune guaranteed. Pac will be dismissed as too small and tailor made for Floyd one way or another.

If Mayweather beats Pacquiao, after Pacquiao beats Cotto, I would give him full credit for that.

GJC
10-06-2009, 07:36 PM
The man is still prime....I think he has time. Floyd fights for money now, and all the easy big money fights have happened already, save Pacman. People claim now that a Pac fight isn't easy, but after the fight happens, we will hear a different tune guaranteed. Pac will be dismissed as too small and tailor made for Floyd one way or another.
He certainly needs the Pac fight, I hope that it isn't a weight too far for him and he can give a good account of himself.

Obama
10-06-2009, 07:59 PM
Cotto going to beat Pac anyways. This is problematic because I'd fully expect Mayweather to fight Pac for a 70/30 split just because he'd make a lot more money that way than fighting Cotto for 60/40. He'd prolly then hold off on Cotto and fight Mosley end of 2010 for 70/30 again. Then maybe we see him fight Cotto in 2011. Given the brutal fights Cotto seems to get himself into, he may not even be good by then.

Oselav
10-07-2009, 12:33 AM
Is he looking for a legacy or looking to make money?

If it is the later, then his career is one of the greatest.

He, and his fans, put to much emphasis on the no loss factor as equating to ATG. What % of boxing fans really believe that Marciano was a better fighter than Louis, Ali, Dempsey and Johnson?

I would love to see FMJ fight a range of great fighters. SRL and Willie Pep had to contend with the exceedingly tall, long armed mean dude in Hearns and Saddler. They didn't always look good or win but they won applause for taking the challenge and participating in some great fights. Based on that criteria I would love to see FMJ in with equivalent of this generation - Paul Williams. FMJ might lose but if he made a great fight of it I would be more impressed then him showing off his amazing defensive skills against smaller, slower guys punching up at him that have to get hit to get in range.

If FMJ retired today, how many boxing fans would bother to check out his fights in 50 years time?

Obama
10-07-2009, 12:48 AM
If FMJ retired today, how many boxing fans would bother to check out his fights in 50 years time?

A lot I'd imagine. Top rated boxing ability makes for good footage. People will have to use it when kids 50 years from now claim the fighters of today simply weren't on the skill level of the fighters in the future. :rofl:

dionysius
10-07-2009, 01:50 AM
40 wins? I don't think so. :alucard:

Leakbeak
10-07-2009, 02:56 AM
this thread is useless without a poll. Are some people retarded or are computers really that hard to use?

BOX-A-LOT
10-07-2009, 03:07 AM
Floyd has not earned his stripes to be considered amongst the greats.

Considering Floyd a great cheapens the ATG thing

Bushidō
10-07-2009, 03:19 AM
In his era yes.

JFB629
12-04-2009, 07:02 PM
Whether you love him or hate him, you can't deny that Floyd Mayweather is a incredible talent. At his best and focused his would be a problem for any fighter past or present.

Mayweather is a defensive master. He has mastered the art of the shoulder roll defence. His parrying, blocking, and slipping is second to none. He is also one of the fastest fighters to put on a pair of gloves, Mayweathers punchers are that fast and crisp, most of the time who don't even see them coming.

He is also a master at fighting off the ropes, and he can adapt to any situation and style. When in the Prizering, he is as relaxed as can be, he almost look's at times like his is as comfortable in a ring as he is in his home. He has cat like reflexes, and seems to see punchers coming from a mile away.

Kevin Iole said that the late great Eddie Futch said that he's seen Floyd Mayweather make moves that he hasn't seen anyone make in 50 years.

He is also one of the most dedicated fighters of all time, not drinking or smoking, and in the gym all year round. It dosen't get tested often due to his defence and reflexes, but Mayweathers chin and toughness also seem to be superb.

He was one of the best Super Featherweights of all time. He won the WBC Featherweight Title at just 21, and defended it 8 times, in a span of three years.

In that time he beat the likes of Genaro Hernandez, Angel Manfredy, and the then unbeaten 33-0 Diego Corrales.

Alot of people were picking Corrales to beat Mayweather, but in Mayweathers finest hour, he treated Corrales like a second rate amature. His speed, accuarcy and timing in that fight was incredible, he stopped Corrales in 10 one sided rounds.

He would then go onto move to defeat number #1 Rated Lightweight Jose Luis Castillio twice, and defend his Lightweight title 3 times.

Before moving up and winning the WBC 140 Title by outclassing Arturo Gatti, and making it look easy.

He then moved up another weight class to win the IBF 147b Title from slick Zab Judah.. After handing a boxing lesson to number #1 Welterweight Carlops Baldomir.

Mayweather took icon and 6 weight division champion Oscar De La Hoya, in the biggest PPV fight of time. De La Hoya was coming of spectacular KO victory over WBC champion Ricardo Mayorga.

The fight was at 154lb. In a close and tactical affair. Mayweather took a SD. I always thought Mayweather won the fight, without much controversy.

Then in one of Mayweathers best performances, he defeated the 43-0 140lb King and WBA 147 Title holder Ricky Hatton. Hatton was considered one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world, but Mayweather slowly took him apart and stopped him in 10.

In his last fight, Mayweather put on another Boxing clinic. Coming back from a 2 year layoff, Mayweather took on P4P #2 Juan Manuel Marquez.

Although Marquez was a fair bit smaller tha Mayweather, Marquez had been very active over the last five years, and in that time had two fights with number #1 P4P Manny Paciquao, alot of people thought Marquez beat Pac both times, he drew and lost the two bouts.

Mayweather virtually whipe washed Marquez on route to a UD. Although Juan was much smaller, alot of fighters from the past such as Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Bob Fitzsimmons, and so on, would often give tons of weight away and still beat some of the best around.

So I feel Mayweather deserves some credit...........

But Mayweathers ****y, loudmouth persona often overshadows his greatness in the ring. Thus the reason so many people find it hard to give him credit for his in ring achivements.

He may not be on the level of the likes of Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, and Harry Greb for greatness. But few are. But Mayweather should be remembered as one of the most gifted fighters of all time and one of the best fighters of if not the best of this era.

Floyd Mayweathers Accomplishments
-P4P Rated best fighter in the world
-Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year in 1998 and 2007
-World Boxing Hall of Fame Fighter of the Year (2002)
-5 Weight Division Champion

Mayweathers Resume Of Wins
-Genaro Hernandez
-Angel Manfredy
-Diego Corrales (33-0)
-Jesus Chavez (35-1)
-Jose Luis Castillo X2
-Sharmba Mitchell
-Arturo Gatti
-Zab Judah
-Carlos Manuel Baldomir
-Oscar De La Hoya
-Ricky Hatton (43-0)
-Juan Manuel Marquez

Amature Accomplishments
-1993 National Golden Gloves Light Flyweight Champion
-1994 National Golden Gloves Flyweight Champion
-1995 United States Amateur Featherweight Champion
-1996 National Golden Gloves Featherweight Champion
-Bronze Medalist for the United States at the Olympics in Atlanta 1996

DonTaseMeBrah
12-04-2009, 08:56 PM
he's great but nowhere near what he or his delusional fan base claim he is. He hasnt fought a threatening opposition since jose luis castillo at 135 & please save me the zab judah, carlos baldomir, ricky hatton & oscar at 154 defense. He never fought the top dogs 140, 147, & 154. Even at 135 he chose a castillo who has somehow become HOF material over somebody like joel casamayor.

His talent is ATG, his resume & actual ATG status (at least what he & his fans claim) need to be verified. Verification in the form of fighting the top guys, again, & again......



& again.

1SILVA
12-04-2009, 09:19 PM
To me his selling points for greatness are his skills relative to other greats.

The problem I have with it is that its hypothetical at best.

Most posters here specially there at NSB are stating that he hypothetically beats a genuine ATG like Roberto Duran or Alexis Arguello.

Some maybe right, others maybe wrong. But at the end of the day it is just that. HYPOTHETICAL.

Where in hell can you find greatness with that?

What say you people?

Yes, he is an ATG

tyger
12-04-2009, 09:37 PM
Group 1
Joe Louis
Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Ray Leonard
Willie Pep
Muhammad Ali
etc

Group 2
Felix Trinidad
Oscar De La Hoya
Mike Tyson
Joey Maxim
Max Schmeling
etc

To me Floyd is a great and belongs among the greats in group 2

No way I believe he belongs in with group 1
He would have to take all challenges for the next four years to achieve that,
and he has alot of time to make up for.

Dynamite Kid
12-04-2009, 09:44 PM
When Jose Luis Castillo is the best name on your resume .............

He is an ATG but a second tear ATG

BennyST
12-04-2009, 10:35 PM
he's great but nowhere near what he or his delusional fan base claim he is. He hasnt fought a threatening opposition since jose luis castillo at 135 & please save me the zab judah, carlos baldomir, ricky hatton & oscar at 154 defense. He never fought the top dogs 140, 147, & 154. Even at 135 he chose a castillo who has somehow become HOF material over somebody like joel casamayor.

His talent is ATG, his resume & actual ATG status (at least what he & his fans claim) need to be verified. Verification in the form of fighting the top guys, again, & again......



& again.

Well, you know that Castillo beat Casamayor? They also had quite similar careers. Lots of good wins, and a few losses, though of course Castillo has many more losses and some pretty bad knock out losses in there too even before he fought Mayweather.

Weird career.

Obama
12-04-2009, 10:38 PM
Cotto going to beat Pac anyways.

So much for that prediction. :sad6:

Cotto could have won if he stuck to his jab and didn't trade when Pac finally managed to get a good shot in during the early rounds....he should have known he was too slow.

Anyways, unless Mayweather somehow loses all of his fights now....he's an ATG.

ROSS CALIFORNIA
12-04-2009, 10:45 PM
I think he needs this win over Pac to solidify his ATG status. Personally I see him beating most, if not all the ATG's of the past in his weight class. He's an amazing fighter and I think he will prove that against Pac, but you just never know until it happens.

ROSS CALIFORNIA
12-04-2009, 10:49 PM
So much for that prediction. :sad6:

Well, at least you git this one right:
Given the brutal fights Cotto seems to get himself into, he may not even be good by then.
A lot of guys thought he got KO'd just because Margarito cheated.

JAB5239
12-05-2009, 04:38 AM
Whether you love him or hate him, you can't deny that Floyd Mayweather is a incredible talent. At his best and focused his would be a problem for any fighter past or present.

Mayweather is a defensive master. He has mastered the art of the shoulder roll defence. His parrying, blocking, and slipping is second to none. He is also one of the fastest fighters to put on a pair of gloves, Mayweathers punchers are that fast and crisp, most of the time who don't even see them coming.

He is also a master at fighting off the ropes, and he can adapt to any situation and style. When in the Prizering, he is as relaxed as can be, he almost look's at times like his is as comfortable in a ring as he is in his home. He has cat like reflexes, and seems to see punchers coming from a mile away.

Kevin Iole said that the late great Eddie Futch said that he's seen Floyd Mayweather make moves that he hasn't seen anyone make in 50 years.

He is also one of the most dedicated fighters of all time, not drinking or smoking, and in the gym all year round. It dosen't get tested often due to his defence and reflexes, but Mayweathers chin and toughness also seem to be superb.

He was one of the best Super Featherweights of all time. He won the WBC Featherweight Title at just 21, and defended it 8 times, in a span of three years.

In that time he beat the likes of Genaro Hernandez, Angel Manfredy, and the then unbeaten 33-0 Diego Corrales.

Alot of people were picking Corrales to beat Mayweather, but in Mayweathers finest hour, he treated Corrales like a second rate amature. His speed, accuarcy and timing in that fight was incredible, he stopped Corrales in 10 one sided rounds.

He would then go onto move to defeat number #1 Rated Lightweight Jose Luis Castillio twice, and defend his Lightweight title 3 times.

Before moving up and winning the WBC 140 Title by outclassing Arturo Gatti, and making it look easy.

He then moved up another weight class to win the IBF 147b Title from slick Zab Judah.. After handing a boxing lesson to number #1 Welterweight Carlops Baldomir.

Mayweather took icon and 6 weight division champion Oscar De La Hoya, in the biggest PPV fight of time. De La Hoya was coming of spectacular KO victory over WBC champion Ricardo Mayorga.

The fight was at 154lb. In a close and tactical affair. Mayweather took a SD. I always thought Mayweather won the fight, without much controversy.

Then in one of Mayweathers best performances, he defeated the 43-0 140lb King and WBA 147 Title holder Ricky Hatton. Hatton was considered one of the best pound for pound fighters in the world, but Mayweather slowly took him apart and stopped him in 10.

In his last fight, Mayweather put on another Boxing clinic. Coming back from a 2 year layoff, Mayweather took on P4P #2 Juan Manuel Marquez.

Although Marquez was a fair bit smaller tha Mayweather, Marquez had been very active over the last five years, and in that time had two fights with number #1 P4P Manny Paciquao, alot of people thought Marquez beat Pac both times, he drew and lost the two bouts.

Mayweather virtually whipe washed Marquez on route to a UD. Although Juan was much smaller, alot of fighters from the past such as Sam Langford, Henry Armstrong, Bob Fitzsimmons, and so on, would often give tons of weight away and still beat some of the best around.

So I feel Mayweather deserves some credit...........

But Mayweathers ****y, loudmouth persona often overshadows his greatness in the ring. Thus the reason so many people find it hard to give him credit for his in ring achivements.

He may not be on the level of the likes of Ray Robinson, Henry Armstrong, and Harry Greb for greatness. But few are. But Mayweather should be remembered as one of the most gifted fighters of all time and one of the best fighters of if not the best of this era.

Floyd Mayweathers Accomplishments
-P4P Rated best fighter in the world
-Ring Magazine Fighter of the Year in 1998 and 2007
-World Boxing Hall of Fame Fighter of the Year (2002)
-5 Weight Division Champion

Mayweathers Resume Of Wins
-Genaro Hernandez
-Angel Manfredy
-Diego Corrales (33-0)
-Jesus Chavez (35-1)
-Jose Luis Castillo X2
-Sharmba Mitchell
-Arturo Gatti
-Zab Judah
-Carlos Manuel Baldomir
-Oscar De La Hoya
-Ricky Hatton (43-0)
-Juan Manuel Marquez

Amature Accomplishments
-1993 National Golden Gloves Light Flyweight Champion
-1994 National Golden Gloves Flyweight Champion
-1995 United States Amateur Featherweight Champion
-1996 National Golden Gloves Featherweight Champion
-Bronze Medalist for the United States at the Olympics in Atlanta 1996

Your posts have been great and I got nothing but respect, but I will disagree with you and the esteemed Mr. Futch on the part bolded. I believe both James Toney and Bernard Hopkins were doing many of the same moves as Floyd before him. Probably many others too. Floyd just makes it look so good though. I can't stand Floyd, but this is no knock on him. nThere are many things Floyd can be criticized for.....his skill and talent are not one of them.

cooper5
12-05-2009, 04:59 AM
NO, he is good but not in any "all time" catagory. He could have suck around and cleaned out a division. I feel his best accomplishments were at junior lightweight, but looking back even at that, it doesn't stand out as spectular. Don't get me wrong I think he's great champion, just not an all time great.

JAB5239
12-05-2009, 05:11 AM
NO, he is good but not in any "all time" catagory. He could have suck around and cleaned out a division. I feel his best accomplishments were at junior lightweight, but looking back even at that, it doesn't stand out as spectular. Don't get me wrong I think he's great champion, just not an all time great.

Like I've already said, I don't like Floyd one bit. His dominance at 130 was spectacular though. I only rate Alexis Argeullo higher than him at that weight all time. Jmo.

Marcov
12-05-2009, 06:05 AM
Floyd was great at 130, but I myself don't consider Manfredy, Corrales(God rest his soul) and Hernandez great. Remember most of the all timers cleaned out divisions when there was only one champion per division. Even fighters like Hagler had all the titles and took on all challengers for years, because he had to.
Today fighters may be great or good and pick and choose opponents. It is more a sign of the times and not limited to any one fighter. ATG's like Joe Louis never had the option of not fighting another champion or contender in his own weight class because he didn't want to take the risk.

But I do agree Mayweather should go down in history as an All Time Great Super Featherweight. But thats it for me.

Of course I respect the opinions of those who do, I just don't see it that way myself.

Cash Cow
12-05-2009, 06:14 AM
To me his selling points for greatness are his skills relative to other greats.

The problem I have with it is that its hypothetical at best.

Most posters here specially there at NSB are stating that he hypothetically beats a genuine ATG like Roberto Duran or Alexis Arguello.

Some maybe right, others maybe wrong. But at the end of the day it is just that. HYPOTHETICAL.

Where in hell can you find greatness with that?

What say you people?

Without a doubt......ATG....one of the best all around fighters I have ever seen. The fact that he has moved up 5 weight classes, faced top notch guys (a few duds here and there like everyone else), and has NOT sustained any punishment is amazing....

People don't appreciate him now but when he retires we will all wish he was still fighting.

JAB5239
12-05-2009, 06:32 AM
Without a doubt......ATG....one of the best all around fighters I have ever seen. The fact that he has moved up 5 weight classes, faced top notch guys (a few duds here and there like everyone else), and has NOT sustained any punishment is amazing....

People don't appreciate him now but when he retires we will all wish he was still fighting.

He makes my top 50, but when you put his accomplishments under a microscope they aren't so astounding. Besides Castillo, his level of comp above 130 really isn't that impressive. He's never unified a division and rarely takes on the best until there is no one else left. The BEST fighters in history took on the best comp in their divisions. His talent says greatness, but waiting for the last man standing taints much of what he's done compared to most other all time greats.

Ziggy Stardust
12-05-2009, 12:42 PM
He makes my top 50, but when you put his accomplishments under a microscope they aren't so astounding. Besides Castillo, his level of comp above 130 really isn't that impressive. He's never unified a division and rarely takes on the best until there is no one else left. The BEST fighters in history took on the best comp in their divisions. His talent says greatness, but waiting for the last man standing taints much of what he's done compared to most other all time greats.

It's like I always say: How can you really tell how skilled (and how good) a fighter is until he shows it against really good in-prime opponents. It's just too easy to look better than you really are against sub-par opposition. This is why fighters who dominate weak eras lose standing on the all-time lists: Not because there resume is weaker (which it obviously is) but rather because their weak opposition makes their true abilities a question mark. It's not JUST what you do and how you do it: It's also who you do it against and when you do it against them.

Poet

cotto16
12-05-2009, 02:10 PM
It's like I always say: How can you really tell how skilled (and how good) a fighter is until he shows it against really good in-prime opponents. It's just too easy to look better than you really are against sub-par opposition. This is why fighters who dominate weak eras lose standing on the all-time lists: Not becuase there resume is weaker (which it obviously is) but rather because their weak opposition makes their true abilities a question mark. It's not JUST what you do and how you do it: It's also who you do it against and when you do it against them.

Poet

So why do you rank Carlos Zarate and Migeul Canto so high then? Floyd fought and beat better oppostion than both, and both Zarate's and Canto oppostion arent much to speak of.:thinking:

Ziggy Stardust
12-05-2009, 02:32 PM
Floyd fought and beat better oppostion than both

You mean guys like these?

Carlos "I Suck But I Have A Really Cool Name" Baldomir
Oscar "I'm So Washed Up But I Want A Big Pay-Day" De La Hoya
Angel "I Have No Talent But I DO Have Awesome Tattoos" Manfredy
Mickey "I'm A Punching Bag But I'm Brit So I Get Grossly Overrated" Hatton
Diego "I'm Overrated Because I'm Posthumous" Corrales
Juan Manuel "I'm A Past-It Featherweight" Marquez
Zab "I Choke In Every Big Fight" Judah
Sharmba "I'm Even More Washed Up Than De La Hoya" Mitchell
Arturo "I Only Get Big Fights Because I Bleed" Gatti
Genero "I'm Older Than Floyd's Crackhead Daddy" Hernandez
DeMarcus "I Sould Be Fighting On ESPN" Corley

cotto16
12-05-2009, 02:36 PM
You mean guys like these?

Carlos "I Suck But I Have A Really Cool Name" Baldomir
Oscar "I'm So Washed Up But I Want A Big Pay-Day" De La Hoya
Angel "I Have No Talent But I DO Have Awesome Tattoos" Manfredy
Mickey "I'm A Punching Bag But I'm Brit So I Get Grossly Overrated" Hatton
Diego "I'm Overrated Because I'm Posthumous" Corrales
Juan Manuel "I'm A Past-It Featherweight" Marquez
Zab "I Choke In Every Big Fight" Judah
Sharmba "I'm Even More Washed Up Than De La Hoya" Mitchell
Arturo "I Only Get Big Fights Because I Bleed" Gatti
Genero "I'm Older Than Floyd's Crackhead Daddy" Hernandez
DeMarcus "I Sould Be Fighting On ESPN" Corley

That can be done to virtyually all fighters resume's do. But you never answered my question, you say you like to judge fighters ability on who they were fighting, but Zarate and Canto never been much oppostion of note, and floyd beat the better fighters.

But yet you have Zarate and Canto in your top 20.:thinking:

WTF..............

project xxx1
12-05-2009, 02:38 PM
of course he is,it doesnt matter if you like him or not,if your not a pbf hater you will agree:fing26:

Ziggy Stardust
12-05-2009, 02:50 PM
That can be done to virtyually all fighters resume's do. But you never answered my question, you say you like to judge fighters ability on who they were fighting, but Zarate and Canto never been much oppostion of note, and floyd beat the better fighters.

But yet you have Zarate and Canto in your top 20.:thinking:

WTF..............

Completely missing the point that I don't think Floyd beat the better fighters. You can assert that he did until you're blue in the face but logically, like any gratuitous assertion, it can be equally gratuitously denied.

Poet

GJC
12-05-2009, 03:45 PM
He will show in most ATG lists but probably not as high as his talent warrants

zoneman99
12-05-2009, 03:49 PM
I think he fits into a top 50 ATG list. He has the skills, but does he have the resume?

Lac'em up
12-05-2009, 09:27 PM
How can he call himself an all time great? he hasn't fought the best in the division. He has so many challenges too conquer still. He beat Marquez but he didn't even make the weight! He has too much to do still before he can go down as an ATG. One of those things is actually fight other champions in the same division; Paul williams, Margarito, Mosley, Berto, etc, etc. No more catchweight crap either.

JAB5239
12-06-2009, 06:55 AM
He will show in most ATG lists but probably not as high as his talent warrants

......Agreed.