View Full Version : Roy Jones Jr.'s Legacy


Stoppage
10-05-2009, 05:25 PM
Even though Roy Jones Jr. is still fighting today, how would you rate him in history?

You can without a doubt say that he was p4p one of, if not the, best of his era. You can also say that when he was in his prime, he was near perfect.

The thing that most people frown on him for is his lack of great opponents during the most part of his career. While that can be said, remember that he beat the following:

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Felix Trinidad
Antonio Tarver
Mike McCallum

Those alone are a great list of opponents.

So how would you rate him in history?

GJC
10-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Great fighter think you'd have to be pretty stingy not to have him top 20/30 PfP ATG

Benncollinsaad
10-05-2009, 06:18 PM
Great fighter think you'd have to be pretty stingy not to have him top 20/30 PfP ATG

I agree. He's def past his prime now, but I rate him very high.

bojangles1987
10-05-2009, 09:01 PM
I'm a nuthugger, I honestly think he belongs in the top 20, there are very few that would beat a prime RJ.

Obama
10-05-2009, 09:03 PM
Even though Roy Jones Jr. is still fighting today, how would you rate him in history?

You can without a doubt say that he was p4p one of, if not the, best of his era. You can also say that when he was in his prime, he was near perfect.

The thing that most people frown on him for is his lack of great opponents during the most part of his career. While that can be said, remember that he beat the following:

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Felix Trinidad
Antonio Tarver
Mike McCallum

Those alone are a great list of opponents.

So how would you rate him in history?

-Hopkins wasn't prime till '97. Jones fought him in '93.
-Toney had to lose 44 lbs in 6 weeks. He tried to fight Roy at LHW instead, Roy refused.
-Trinidad was over the hill. The man hasn't been prime or credible since Bernard knocked his ass out at Middleweight. He fought Roy at Light Heavyweight.
-He didn't really beat Tarver, ever. Can't ignore Tarver's two revenge wins either.
-Mike McCallum was over the hill.

Roy fought 3 great body punchers all at opportune times. Did he have the balls to fight McCallum when he was still elite like Toney did? Roy and Toney started their careers at roughly the same time. While Roy beat on club fighters, James Toney fought the best of the best and earned his way to p4p #1. Then Roy cherry picked it from him in opportunistic fashion, and never defended the p4p title against a worthy challenger.

Roy was a hype job who doesn't make the top 10 in any weight class besides Super Middleweight, the biggest joke division (historically speaking) of them all.

I rate him somewhere between 50 and 75 p4p.

D-MiZe
10-05-2009, 09:06 PM
I'm a nuthugger, I honestly think he belongs in the top 20, there are very few that would beat a prime RJ.

Anyone who has the speed and skill to catch him would beat him.

If Tarver got to him, then I can think of about 40 other fighters that could.

nachorjj
10-05-2009, 09:08 PM
-Hopkins wasn't prime till '97. Jones fought him in '93.
-Toney had to lose 44 lbs in 6 weeks. He tried to fight Roy at LHW instead, Roy refused.
-Trinidad was over the hill. The man hasn't been prime or credible since Bernard knocked his ass out at Middleweight. He fought Roy at Light Heavyweight.
-He didn't really beat Tarver, ever. Can't ignore Tarver's two revenge wins either.
-Mike McCallum was over the hill.

Roy fought 3 great body punchers all at opportune times. Did he have the balls to fight McCallum when he was still elite like Toney did? Roy and Toney started their careers at roughly the same time. While Roy beat on club fighters, James Toney fought the best of the best and earned his way to p4p #1. Then Roy cherry picked it from him in opportunistic fashion, and never defended the p4p title against a worthy challenger.

Roy was a hype job who doesn't make the top 10 in any weight class besides Super Middleweight, the biggest joke division (historically speaking) of them all.

I rate him somewhere between 50 and 75 p4p.
the prime of hopkins was in 97 and roy 95/99

Obama
10-05-2009, 09:11 PM
the prime of hopkins was in 97 and roy 95/99

There isn't much difference between Roy's prime and pre-prime. You have to remember he should have been an Olympic gold medalist and his style relied 90% on athleticism, which is at it's peak in youth.

robjr
10-05-2009, 09:16 PM
1st 15 Pro fights all won by KO/TKO.

Jorge Vaca
knocked out Jorge Vaca in 1st round. Jones 1st step up in competition in his career. Vaca a former welterweight world champion. TKO'd mark breland in his previous match before Jones.

Jorge Fernando Castro
Jones won a wide UD. 1 judge gave castro 2 rounds. Castro is a former wba middleweight champion. He is 130-11 with 90KO's

Percy Harris
Jones won by TKO in round 4. Harris defeated Thomas Tate for the IBF Inter-Continental middleweight title.

Glenn Wolfe
Jones TKO'd him in the 1st round. Wolfe went the distance with a young James Toney.

Bernard Hopkins
Only Clear defeat of Hopkins whole career. Any other was contraversial. including 2 Split decisions. Only defeat the hopkins admits he feels he truly lost. Jones defeated hopkins for the IBF middleweight title. Jones had an injured right hand in this fight and basicly won the fight 1 handed, watch the fight and you will see how rarely he throws the right. 116-112 on all jufges scorecards. hopkins status as a fighter is self explanatory, I dont need to go into specifics. You all know what he has doen and is still doing.

Thulani Malinga
Jones knocked out Malinga in the 6th round. Completely dominating him the whole fight. Malinga only stopped 3 times in his career. the other 2 were the last 2 fights of his career when he was 44 and 45 yrs old. Malinga lost a split decision to Chris Eubank for the WBO super middleweight title, Malinga was knocked down in the 5th round. Malinga won a split decision against Nigel Benn for the WBC super middleweight title. Lost a split decision to Vincenzo Nardiello. Won a unanimous decision against a prime Undefeated Robin Reid to retain the WBC super middleweight title, Malinga was 42 yrs old in this fight.

Thomas Tate
TKO'd in round 2 by Jons. Went the distance with Hard punching Julian Jackson to lose a 116-111 decision for the wbc middleweight title. Defeated Joseph Kiwanuka who has wins over Segundo Mercado and Glen Johnson. KO'd Merqui Sosa who is known to have a great chin. Lost 2 decisions late in his career to otke, in germany, enough said. At 36 years old he won a split decision against Fulgencio Zuniga and also TKO'd Omar sheika in round 4.

James Toney
Jones moved up from middleweight to defeat Toney for the IBF super middleweight title. Toney was undefeated at the time and arguably the #1 pound for pound fighter at that present time. Jones won a UD 108-119 109-118 110-117. Jones knocked Toney down in round 3. Toney is a world title holder in 3 weight classes. And you all know what he has doen and who he has beat.

Vinny Pazienza
Jones TKO'd pazienza in round 6. there was a round where pazienza didnt land 1 punch. Pazienza is a world champion in 2 wieght classes. has defeated Joseph Kiwanuka at 170lbs. Paz started career at lightweight. defeated roberto duran at 168.

Tony Thornton
Jones won by TKO in round 3. Lost a majority decision to Steve Collins. won a split decisions against Merqui Sosa. Lost a close UD to undefeated chris eubank for the super middleweight title, fight was in the UK. Went distance with toney in 93.

Merqui Sosa
Jones won by TKO against sosa in round 2. Sosa lost a split decision to James Toney in 1991. Sosa was knocked down in this fight and lost a point for low blows. Lost 116-112 decision to Nunn. Sosa won a unanimous decision against Glen Johnson and knocked out Segundo Mercado.

Eric Lucas
Jones won by TKO in round 12. Lucas is a Former WBC super middleweight champion, with 3 defenses. Lost it to Markus beyer in a split decision in Germany.. He knocked out Segundo Mercado. Won Unanimous Decisions against Vinny pazienza and Omar Sheika.

Bryant Brannon
Jones won by TKO in round 2 against brannon. Brannon defeated Eric Lucas.

Mike McCallum
World Champion in 3 Weight Classes. TKO'd and undefeated Julian Jackson in round 2. knocked out donald curry. won a split decision against Sumbu Kalambay. Won a split decision against herol graham. Won a unanimous decision against undefeated steve collins. Had a draw with James Toney in 1991.

Montell Griffin
Jones lost by DQ in 1st fight. fought 5 months later and knocked the undefeated Griffin out in the 1st round. Griffin is a former wbc light heavyweight champion. Won a majority decicion to james toney in 1995, and then a unanamious decision against toney in 1996.

Virgil Hill
Jones won by KO in round 4 with a body shot. Jones only fighter to knock Hill out. Hill a world title holder in 2 weight classes. Hill was succesful in 10 title defenses of his wba light heavywiehgt title before losing a close decision to thomas hearns in 1991. Beat 3 undefeated fighters: Fabrice Tiozzo, Lou Del Valle, and Henry Maske.

Lou Del Valle
Lost wide UD 119-108 to Jones. Lost close decision to Virgil Hill. Del Valle is a former WBA light heavyweight title holder.

Otis Grant
TKO loss to Jones in round 10. Grant a former WBO middleweight title holder.

Reggie Johnson
Jones won a Unanimous decision against Reggie Johnson 120-106 on all cards. Only other losses came by 2 contraversial split decision losses in argentina against Jorge castro, a split decision loss to tarver in 2002, another close UD loss to john david Jackson in argentina, and a split decision loss to James Toney in 1991. Johnson knocked down toney for the 1st time in his career, where he actually looked hurt. Won a majority decision to Steve Collins. And recently at age of 42 he defeated Julio Cesar Gonzalez. All of Johnsons losses were extremely close or contraversial robberies. Jones was only one to completley dominate him. Reggie Johnson a former world title holder in 2 weight classes.

Eric Harding
Defeated Montell Griffin and Antonio Tarver.

Derrick Harmon
Jones won by TKO in round 11. Harmon Won a unanimous decision against Glen Johnson in 2002.

Julio Cesar Gonzalez
Jones beat the undefeated at the time Gonzalez by a wide 119-106 unanimous decision. Gonzalez is a former WBO light heavyweight title holder. Has wins against Joseph Kiwanuka, Glen Johnson, and the undefeted at the time Dariusz Michalczewski. Lost a UD to erdei in Germany. also has a win against Montell Griffin.

Glen Kelly
Jones won by KO 7. Kelly has wins against Sam Soliman and TKO'd John Mugabi.

Clinton Woods
Jones won because woods corner threw towel in 6th round. Jones only fighter to stop Woods. Woods is a former IBF light heavyweight title holder with 5 defenses. has 2 wins over Glen Johnson, a win over Julio Cesar Gonzalez, TKO'd Rico Hoye.

John Ruiz
Jones moved up in weight to defeat John Ruiz in a unanumous decision to win the WBA Heavyweight World Title. Jones weighed 193, Ruiz 226.


Jones Losses

Jones vs. Tarver I & II
Jones regained his old belt by beating Antonio Tarver. Jones looked weak after coming down from heavyweight to light heavyweight losing 25 plus pounds of muscle. Jones won by majority decision, the judges giving him 117-111,116-112 and 114-114.

On May 15, 2004, Jones faced Tarver in a rematch. Jones was heavily favoured to win, but Tarver scored a KO at 1:41 of the second round. Jones had won the first round, but in the second, as Jones tried a combination, he was caught by a big counter-hook left from Tarver. Jones got on his feet by the count, but was unable to continue.

Glen Johnson
Johnson knocked out Jones 49 seconds into the ninth round. Johnson was ahead on all three judges***8217; scorecards at the time of the knockout (77-75, 77-75, 78-74). Jones clearly not recovered from the KO from Tarver, looked scared the whole fight.

Jones vs Tarver III
After almost a year away from the ring. Clearly not recoevred from to straight brutal KO losses Tarver won by unanimous decision (117-111, 116-112, 116-112)

Calzaghe
Undefeated top 3 pound for pound fighter Jones on a comeback trail got a fight at nearly age 40 a match against Joe Calzaghe. Jones looked good in the 1st couple rounds knocking down Calzaghe in the 1st round. Half way through the fight Jones sustained a cut that never got any improvement from cutman which impaired his vision for the 2nd half of the fight. not very active no legs, calzaghe won a clear unanimous decision.

Key Points
Jones became the first former middleweight title holder to win a heavyweight title in 106 years. Jones also became the first fighter to start his career as a jr. middleweight and win a heavyweight title.

Before the 1st fight with Ruiz Jones lost 10 rounds at most in his whole career.

Former Middleweight World Champion

Former Super Middleweight World Champion

Former Light-Heavyweight World Champion

Former Heavyweight World Champion

Pound for Pound King from 1994-2003

mikeyh1015
10-05-2009, 09:23 PM
Roy jones Jr is the greatest fighter of All Time!!!!! There is no question. 20 yrs from now he will be finally noticed and recognized. Our era will prove it.

Bigmacpoper
10-05-2009, 09:27 PM
Ignore dunce,he knows that Roy Jones would clown his beloved drug addicted,fight throwing boy from PHILLAY in Harold Johnson so badly.

Dunce fancies himself a bit of a boxing historian and pretty much agree's with every word online boxing historians spout and then parrots their opinions on this forum.

Toney got clowned by Jones,there was no issue with being weight drained,he simply got clowned like the overrated clodge that he was,why the f*ck would Jones fight that fat clodge at 175? the fight was scheduled and had a belt on the line of which Toney was defending at 168.

Hopkins wasn't in his prime but he was a top middleweight at the time and still qualifies as a very good win.


Roy Jones got knocked out twice past his prime by two elite fighters in Glen Johnson and Antonio Tarver.

Harold Johnson at 26 years old was getting stopped by bums like Oakland Billy Smith inside of two rounds

Dan...
10-05-2009, 11:03 PM
-Hopkins wasn't prime till '97. Jones fought him in '93.
-Toney had to lose 44 lbs in 6 weeks. He tried to fight Roy at LHW instead, Roy refused.
-Trinidad was over the hill. The man hasn't been prime or credible since Bernard knocked his ass out at Middleweight. He fought Roy at Light Heavyweight.
-He didn't really beat Tarver, ever. Can't ignore Tarver's two revenge wins either.
-Mike McCallum was over the hill.

Roy fought 3 great body punchers all at opportune times. Did he have the balls to fight McCallum when he was still elite like Toney did? Roy and Toney started their careers at roughly the same time. While Roy beat on club fighters, James Toney fought the best of the best and earned his way to p4p #1. Then Roy cherry picked it from him in opportunistic fashion, and never defended the p4p title against a worthy challenger.

Roy was a hype job who doesn't make the top 10 in any weight class besides Super Middleweight, the biggest joke division (historically speaking) of them all.

I rate him somewhere between 50 and 75 p4p.


Couldn't be bothered responding to all this. I've had my say on Roy a million times now and I'm completely done discussing his career and where he should be placed in terms of all time rankings.

All I will say is that I find it a little funny/odd that you spend several paragraphs ragging on every win he ever had, calling him gutless, a cherry-picker, etc. and saying that he was a "hype job" before then going on to say that he could rate as high as 50 in the all-time pound 4 pound rankings.

I think that shows pretty clearly that you are a bit of a clueless cunt to be honest.

Mr Boxing9
10-05-2009, 11:47 PM
-Hopkins wasn't prime till '97. Jones fought him in '93.
-Toney had to lose 44 lbs in 6 weeks. He tried to fight Roy at LHW instead, Roy refused.
-Trinidad was over the hill. The man hasn't been prime or credible since Bernard knocked his ass out at Middleweight. He fought Roy at Light Heavyweight.
-He didn't really beat Tarver, ever. Can't ignore Tarver's two revenge wins either.
-Mike McCallum was over the hill.

Roy fought 3 great body punchers all at opportune times. Did he have the balls to fight McCallum when he was still elite like Toney did? Roy and Toney started their careers at roughly the same time. While Roy beat on club fighters, James Toney fought the best of the best and earned his way to p4p #1. Then Roy cherry picked it from him in opportunistic fashion, and never defended the p4p title against a worthy challenger.

Roy was a hype job who doesn't make the top 10 in any weight class besides Super Middleweight, the biggest joke division (historically speaking) of them all.

I rate him somewhere between 50 and 75 p4p.

Wow talk about downgrading Roy's legacy, I could do that do virtually all fighters from Joe Louis to Pep. You're one of the worst posters on here!

JAB5239
10-06-2009, 02:41 AM
Toney got clowned by Jones,there was no issue with being weight drained,he simply got clowned like the overrated clodge that he was,why the f*ck would Jones fight that fat clodge at 175? the fight was scheduled and had a belt on the line of which Toney was defending at 168.

Jones was beating Toney Regardless, but tell us again why James never fought at 168 again? I mean its not as if he wasn't a sought after football recruit out of high school weighing more than 160, was it? Your bias is never ending.

Bigmacpoper
10-06-2009, 02:58 AM
Oh look,GABBy comes along to try challenge me and prove his manhood once again,Toney never made 168 again because he was a great fat git who couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar.

He wasn't a heavyweight,he wasn't a cruiserweight and he wasn't even a light-heavyweight,he was a 160-168 fighter and his natural build was fit for such weight classes.


It was Toney's balooning up inbetween fights which prevented him from ever making 160 and 168 again

Dan...
10-06-2009, 03:00 AM
Oh look,GABBy comes along to try challenge me and prove his manhood once again,Toney never made 168 again because he was a great fat git who couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar.

He wasn't a heavyweight,he wasn't a cruiserweight and he wasn't even a light-heavyweight,he was a 160-168 fighter and his natural build was fit for such weight classes.


It was Toney's balooning up inbetween fights which prevented him from ever making 160 and 168 again

Thats cool, but what does it do to prove that James wasnt weight drained as a result? If he was weight drained it was clearly because he was ballooning, not because he was trying to make a weight that was unhealthy for his body.

JAB5239
10-06-2009, 03:22 AM
Oh look,GABBy comes along to try challenge me and prove his manhood once again,Toney never made 168 again because he was a great fat git who couldn't keep his hand out of the cookie jar.

He wasn't a heavyweight,he wasn't a cruiserweight and he wasn't even a light-heavyweight,he was a 160-168 fighter and his natural build was fit for such weight classes.


It was Toney's balooning up inbetween fights which prevented him from ever making 160 and 168 again

Thats cool, but what does it do to prove that James wasnt weight drained as a result? If he was weight drained it was clearly because he was ballooning, not because he was trying to make a weight that was unhealthy for his body.

It doesn't prove a thing Dan, just another biased opinion. Pooper thinks he knows Toneys personal history, yet he'll never come up with a reasonable excuse why Toney never made 168 again. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

MANGLER
10-06-2009, 03:28 AM
RJ is an ATG. Had he quit earlier, he'd be remembered better. I understand his fall off has hurt his historical standin, but it shouldn't hurt it as bad as some make it sound.

Silencers
10-06-2009, 04:05 AM
I think in hindsight a lot of the criticism he got when he was in his prime was unwarranted because a lot of the guys he fought went on to have good careers or some of them were already pretty accomplished before they fought him.

So I think his resume is more solid than some people give him credit for and his athleticism is quite possibly the best there has ever been in the history of the sport. Great fighter, doesn't mean he couldn't have accomplised more though, there were opponents out there that he didn't fight for various reasons but I don't think it knocks his legacy too much.

CCobra
10-06-2009, 04:20 AM
-Hopkins wasn't prime till '97. Jones fought him in '93.
-Toney had to lose 44 lbs in 6 weeks. He tried to fight Roy at LHW instead, Roy refused.
-Trinidad was over the hill. The man hasn't been prime or credible since Bernard knocked his ass out at Middleweight. He fought Roy at Light Heavyweight.
-He didn't really beat Tarver, ever. Can't ignore Tarver's two revenge wins either.
-Mike McCallum was over the hill.

Roy fought 3 great body punchers all at opportune times. Did he have the balls to fight McCallum when he was still elite like Toney did? Roy and Toney started their careers at roughly the same time. While Roy beat on club fighters, James Toney fought the best of the best and earned his way to p4p #1. Then Roy cherry picked it from him in opportunistic fashion, and never defended the p4p title against a worthy challenger.

Roy was a hype job who doesn't make the top 10 in any weight class besides Super Middleweight, the biggest joke division (historically speaking) of them all.

I rate him somewhere between 50 and 75 p4p.

This is right. But many people refuse to accept this. Roy was as talented as they come but the fact remains - he never fought the best on a consistent basis like - say - James Toney did.

They started their careers about 7 or 8 months apart. By the time they met in 1994, Toney was widely regarded as a top P4P fighter in the sport. He'd fought, and beat, Merqui Sosa, Reggie Johnson, Doug DeWitt, Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Dell'Aquila, Glenn Wolfe, Iran Barkley, Tim Littles, Dave Tiberi, Charles Williams & Tony Thornton.

Compare that to Jones level of competition: Bernard Hopkins, Thomas Tate, Thulani Malinga, Glenn Thomas, Jorge Fernando Castro, Jorge Vaca & Thomas Tate.

There is simply no comparison. Toney fought his way up to P4P top fighters, Jones didn't. Toney lost 44lbs in 6 weeks to make the SMW limit and was weight drained. Ask yourself this - why did Roy Jones turn down a $7million offer for a rematch with Toney at LHW back in Roy's supposed prime years?

Jones cherry-picked his way to the top, and when he got to the top he stayed there by cherry-picking again. He sat on his comfortable HBO contract collecting $3million fighting guys like Glenn Kelly & Richard Hall on a consistent basis. Jones level of competition picked up post-Ruiz and that's because Roy was shot and knew he had an excuse for every loss. He never did beat Tarver btw, who clearly outpointed him in the first bout.

JAB5239
10-06-2009, 04:28 AM
This is right. But many people refuse to accept this. Roy was as talented as they come but the fact remains - he never fought the best on a consistent basis like - say - James Toney did.

They started their careers about 7 or 8 months apart. By the time they met in 1994, Toney was widely regarded as a top P4P fighter in the sport. He'd fought, and beat, Merqui Sosa, Reggie Johnson, Doug DeWitt, Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Dell'Aquila, Glenn Wolfe, Iran Barkley, Tim Littles, Dave Tiberi, Charles Williams & Tony Thornton.

Compare that to Jones level of competition: Bernard Hopkins, Thomas Tate, Thulani Malinga, Glenn Thomas, Jorge Fernando Castro, Jorge Vaca & Thomas Tate.

There is simply no comparison. Toney fought his way up to P4P top fighters, Jones didn't. Toney lost 44lbs in 6 weeks to make the SMW limit and was weight drained. Ask yourself this - why did Roy Jones turn down a $7million offer for a rematch with Toney at LHW back in Roy's supposed prime years?

Jones cherry-picked his way to the top, and when he got to the top he stayed there by cherry-picking again. He sat on his comfortable HBO contract collecting $3million fighting guys like Glenn Kelly & Richard Hall on a consistent basis. Jones level of competition picked up post-Ruiz and that's because Roy was shot and knew he had an excuse for every loss. He never did beat Tarver btw, who clearly outpointed him in the first bout.

While I agree with much of what you've said, Jones did unify the 175 division and defend against the best rated op. While I don't rank him as high as many you can't really fault him any more than one could fault Marciano for his era.

Obama
10-06-2009, 07:50 AM
Ignore dunce,he knows that Roy Jones would clown his beloved drug addicted,fight throwing boy from PHILLAY in Harold Johnson so badly.

Dunce fancies himself a bit of a boxing historian and pretty much agree's with every word online boxing historians spout and then parrots their opinions on this forum.

Toney got clowned by Jones,there was no issue with being weight drained,he simply got clowned like the overrated clodge that he was,why the f*ck would Jones fight that fat clodge at 175? the fight was scheduled and had a belt on the line of which Toney was defending at 168.

Hopkins wasn't in his prime but he was a top middleweight at the time and still qualifies as a very good win.


Roy Jones got knocked out twice past his prime by two elite fighters in Glen Johnson and Antonio Tarver.

Harold Johnson at 26 years old was getting stopped by bums like Oakland Billy Smith inside of two rounds

Listen clown, at LHW RJJ was nothing special, Antonio Tarver was never elite, and Glen Johnson was inconsistent as all hell, tho he did seem to manage to show up against RJJ.

Also, Oakland Billy Smith > Lou Delle Valle. If Smith put Roy down like Valle did, who says he gets back up in time? Besides, Johnson was still feeling the effects of the last Moore fight at the time. When Johnson worked his way back to the top, it was no coincidence that Moore ducked him and had to be stripped of the title. Harold Johnson was the best LHW in the world from '56 to '64, as he was clearly robbed by Pastrano in '63. Even Ali wanted no part of the early to mid 60s Johnson after what Doug Jones put on his ass, a guy Harold easily toyed with.

And if you haven't figured out my opinions are my own yet, something is seriously wrong with you clown. :nonono:

Couldn't be bothered responding to all this. I've had my say on Roy a million times now and I'm completely done discussing his career and where he should be placed in terms of all time rankings.

All I will say is that I find it a little funny/odd that you spend several paragraphs ragging on every win he ever had, calling him gutless, a cherry-picker, etc. and saying that he was a "hype job" before then going on to say that he could rate as high as 50 in the all-time pound 4 pound rankings.

I think that shows pretty clearly that you are a bit of a clueless cunt to be honest.

I didn't call him gutless. Stop interpreting what I said and just take it for what it is. I talked about what the man didn't do, things that I feel a truly great top 20 p4p fighter should have to do. It's obvious the man was very talented despite all of that, so he clearly is an ATG regardless, but he must not rate among the ranks of the ATGs who truly proved themselves in the ring.

He's a hype job because people claimed he was the GOAT before he got knocked out. A LOT of people claimed this. This was far from a reality. Hype is relative to the acclaim being received. If people were merely calling him an ATG, it wouldn't have been hype. But GOAT? Pure hype.

I'm one of the worst posters on here!

I know, you'll get better tho. I have faith.


While I agree with much of what you've said, Jones did unify the 175 division and defend against the best rated op. While I don't rank him as high as many you can't really fault him any more than one could fault Marciano for his era.

The following guys could have fought a prime RJJ at LHW:

Dariusz M
Joe Calzaghe
Steve Collins
James Toney (clearly robbed blind in the 2nd Griffin fight)

Also Bernard was willing to meet him at SMW.

Not going to blame Roy, but, hey, none of the fights came off. And all of the fights would have been deemed better wins than what he currently has on his LHW resume.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:00 AM
Bernard Hopkins
Only Clear defeat of Hopkins whole career. Any other was contraversial. including 2 Split decisions. Only defeat the hopkins admits he feels he truly lost. Jones defeated hopkins for the IBF middleweight title. Jones had an injured right hand in this fight and basicly won the fight 1 handed, watch the fight and you will see how rarely he throws the right. 116-112 on all jufges scorecards. hopkins status as a fighter is self explanatory, I dont need to go into specifics. You all know what he has doen and is still doing.


BS! Taylor beat Hopkins clearly both times and so did Calzaghe!

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:04 AM
BS! Taylor beat Hopkins clearly both times and so did Calzaghe!

Those victories are disputed. Prime for prime Hopkins would wreck them.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:06 AM
Those victories are disputed. Prime for prime Hopkins would wreck them.

Nobody knows that. Nobody CAN know. Taylor maybe, but no way he could wreck Calzaghe!

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:09 AM
Nobody knows that. Nobody CAN know. Taylor maybe, but no way he could wreck Calzaghe!

Go watch Calzaghe in his prime and then Hopkins in his prime. Then come back.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:13 AM
Go watch Calzaghe in his prime and then Hopkins in his prime. Then come back.

Prime Calzaghe destroyed Chris Eubank, who while not in his prime, was still tough and strong. And this was at 168. That coward Hopkins only fought at 160 in his prime.

sonnyboyx2
10-06-2009, 08:18 AM
Even though Roy Jones Jr. is still fighting today, how would you rate him in history?

You can without a doubt say that he was p4p one of, if not the, best of his era. You can also say that when he was in his prime, he was near perfect.

The thing that most people frown on him for is his lack of great opponents during the most part of his career. While that can be said, remember that he beat the following:

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Felix Trinidad
Antonio Tarver
Mike McCallum

Those alone are a great list of opponents.

So how would you rate him in history?

Top 5 P4P ATG

Obama
10-06-2009, 08:20 AM
BS! Taylor beat Hopkins clearly both times and so did Calzaghe!

:no:

Nobody knows that. Nobody CAN know. Taylor maybe, but no way he could wreck Calzaghe!

:nono:

Prime Calzaghe destroyed Chris Eubank, who while not in his prime, was still tough and strong. And this was at 168. That coward Hopkins only fought at 160 in his prime.

:nonono:

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:20 AM
Prime Calzaghe destroyed Chris Eubank, who while not in his prime, was still tough and strong. And this was at 168. That coward Hopkins only fought at 160 in his prime.

If by destroyed you mean winning the majority of the rounds, then yes. If you think that Eubank was serious then I don't know what to tell you.

The difference between Hopkins and Calzaghe is that one fought good competition and the other not.

It's funny how you call Hopkins the coward when he was virtually considered an old man and still fighting young, good fighters. While your hero Calzaghe's biggest fight was against a completely faded Roy Jones Jr. As soon as a new champion who actually posed a thread to Calzaghe came up and challenged him, he retired.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:20 AM
:no:



:nono:



:nonono:
Something wrong with your tastature??:lol1:

Obama
10-06-2009, 08:22 AM
Calzaghe should have stuck around and beat Dawson to claim ATG status. But he decided to bounce. He knew what would happen.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:25 AM
If by destroyed you mean winning the majority of the rounds, then yes. If you think that Eubank was serious then I don't know what to tell you.

The difference between Hopkins and Calzaghe is that one fought good competition and the other not.

It's funny how you call Hopkins the coward when he was virtually considered an old man and still fighting young, good fighters. While your hero Calzaghe's biggest fight was against a completely faded Roy Jones Jr. As soon as a new champion who actually posed a thread to Calzaghe came up and challenged him, he retired.

:haha: You serious man?? If you are, then I don't think there is no use in debating with you anymore.

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:28 AM
:haha: You serious man?? If you are, then I don't think there is no use in debating with you anymore.

I agree. You clearly don't understand the sport of boxing.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:32 AM
I agree. You clearly don't understand the sport of boxing.

:fing26: So long poncey!

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:34 AM
:fing26: So long poncey!

Great. Now that the kid took his nap, this thread got serious, again.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:38 AM
Great. Now that the kid took his nap, this thread got serious, again.

How about this: my rep power is bigger than yours!:D How's that for childish? Blow me.

Spray_resistant
10-06-2009, 08:40 AM
Wow, IDK where to even start with the biased hate on RJJ in this thread. First I would have him top 20 range ATG, no way anyone should have him past top 30. I saw more than once posters saying he never beat Tarver. Maybe you should actually watch the fight and see he won 8 rounds to 4 in the first fight. I really was wondering why they were even having a rematch when it was announced, because Jones so clearly won. Lastly, James Toney blowing up in weight in between fights in no way diminishes Roy's win over him. It is not Jones's obligation to regulate Toney's weight, and being weight drained when you are a champion and know you have to make weight to defend your title is never and excuse for a loss.

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:42 AM
How about this: my rep power is bigger than yours!:D How's that for childish? Blow me.

It's hilarious how you actually think you're winning this exchange. Just go take a long nap.

This section of the forum is for people who actually know stuff about boxing and who don't base their opinions on who their favorite fighters are.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:44 AM
It's hilarious how you actually think you're winning this exchange. Just go take a long nap.

This section of the forum is for people who actually know stuff about boxing and who don't base their opinions on who their favorite fighters are.

:rofl: Thats EXACTLY what you are doing! We all know you are a B-Hop nuthugger and thug-wannabe, so do us all a favor-zip up.

Youre a VERY biased guy and a hater. You are hating on Calzaghe because he beat your gangsta-rolemodel B-Hop.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:46 AM
And I don't wanna win no exchange with you, I just wanna get rid of you.

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:49 AM
:rofl: Thats EXACTLY what you are doing! We all know you are a B-Hop nuthugger and thug-wannabe, so do us all a favor-zip up.

Youre a VERY biased guy and a hater. You are hating on Calzaghe because he beat your gangsta-rolemodel B-Hop.

I'm a nuthugger because I, along with virtually everyone, thinks he beats Calzaghe in his prime?

Don't get me wrong, I watched the Calzaghe vs Hopkins fight and thought Calzaghe edged it out for the victory. But I'm also smart and realize that, prime for prime, Hopkins would wreck Calzaghe.

Like for real, I doubt you even watch entire boxing matches. You probably base your opinions off of highlight videos and www.boxrec.com.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:52 AM
I'm a nuthugger because I, along with virtually everyone, thinks he beats Calzaghe in his prime?

Don't get me wrong, I watched the Calzaghe vs Hopkins fight and thought Calzaghe edged it out for the victory. But I'm also smart and realize that, prime for prime, Hopkins would wreck Calzaghe.

Like for real, I doubt you even watch entire boxing matches. You probably base your opinions off of highlight videos and www.boxrec.com.

Virtually everyone on THIS BOARD, you mean?:lol1: Wow! I got scared now.

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 08:56 AM
Virtually everyone on THIS BOARD, you mean?:lol1: Wow! I got scared now.

You can make inside jokes of doubt to yourself all you want. Your posts are worthless. I can easily assure myself that your posts don't affect my opinion.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 08:58 AM
You can make inside jokes of doubt to yourself all you want. Your posts are worthless. I can easily assure myself that your posts don't affect my opinion.

:rolleyes: This fuqing guy won't quit.:rofl: Look sweetheart, sorry I hurt your feelings but you are talking pure crap and every REAL expert would tell you that there is NO WAY a prime Hopkins would wreck Joe Calzaghe. If so, why did he never call him out during the late 90's and early 00's?? Both guys were in their primes then.

No, instead the fake muslim hood waited for the right time, when he thought Calz was weakened after the Kessler fight and when he was old enough to be a "safe fight" for him. And he HAD to attack him verbally first, downgrading him as a fighter. Something Joe would never do.

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 09:09 AM
:rolleyes: This fuqing guy won't quit.:rofl: Look sweetheart, sorry I hurt your feelings but you are talking pure crap and every REAL expert would tell you that there is NO WAY a prime Hopkins would wreck Joe Calzaghe. If so, why did he never call him out during the late 90's and early 00's?? Both guys were in their primes then.

Are the real experts actually real? Or do they consist of your collectible action figures you play with in the bathtub?

And let me run over the scenario for you. Why would Hopkins, who was dominating his division and actually making a legacy for himself, challenge an unrecognized champion, who fights meaningless opponents, in a division that was not popular whatsoever.

Also, Hopkins the "coward", as you call him, was chasing a fight with the number one P4P fighter in the world, at the time. Unlike Calzaghe who sticked to fighting B- fighters.

We make a lot of arguments and I'm actually going to be the one to end this one. I realize there's no point in debating with you because you live in a mind state of your own.

IT'S CALLED STUPIDITY.

Good day, sir.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 09:16 AM
Are the real experts actually real? Or do they consist of your collectible action figures you play with in the bathtub?

And let me run over the scenario for you. Why would Hopkins, who was dominating his division and actually making a legacy for himself, challenge an unrecognized champion, who fights meaningless opponents, in a division that was not popular whatsoever.

Also, Hopkins the "coward", as you call him, was chasing a fight with the number one P4P fighter in the world, at the time. Unlike Calzaghe who sticked to fighting B- fighters.

We make a lot of arguments and I'm actually going to be the one to end this one. I realize there's no point in debating with you because you live in a mind state of your own.

IT'S CALLED STUPIDITY.

Good day, sir.
Any comments anyone?

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 09:48 AM
Even though Roy Jones Jr. is still fighting today, how would you rate him in history?

You can without a doubt say that he was p4p one of, if not the, best of his era. You can also say that when he was in his prime, he was near perfect.

The thing that most people frown on him for is his lack of great opponents during the most part of his career. While that can be said, remember that he beat the following:

Bernard Hopkins
James Toney
Felix Trinidad
Antonio Tarver
Mike McCallum

Those alone are a great list of opponents.

So how would you rate him in history?

Roy Jones resume should be stronger than it is, that said he did away with some credible opponents quite decisively and made them look like average fighters, Glenn Wolfe went 12 with James Toney whilst Jones dealt with him in 1 round on the Barkley /Toney undercard. Toney went 10 with Glen Thomas and although he was dominant he still went the distance with Thomas, where as against Roy he was starched off the ropes with a beautiful left hook. Thornton went the distance with Toney & Eubank, whilst Roy dropped him and forced a stoppage (debatable)

Malinga beat Benn twice as far as im concerned, although he did not get the verdict first time around, he also lost a split decision to Eubank, Jones knocked him out.

Reggie Johnson barely won one round against Roy Jones, yet he beat Steve Collins decisively.

Eric Harding outboxed Tarver and broke one his ribs in what was a boring !! fight, Roy beat Harding of coarse.

Virgil Hill self explanatory.

Griffin outboxed James Toney twice, albeit he might not have deserved the second fight.

I dont know why people use the McCallum fighg to build up Roy's resume, its not a great win for Jones, McCallum lost clearly to Fabrice Tiozzo not long before that and he looked his age in that fight, McCallum's last good performance before that was Jeff Harding.

Gonzalez went on to beat DariuszMichalczewski after getting dominated by Jones.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 10:37 AM
Roy Jones resume should be stronger than it is, that said he did away with some credible opponents quite decisively and made them look like average fighters, Glenn Wolfe went 12 with James Toney whilst Jones dealt with him in 1 round on the Barkley /Toney undercard. Ive not seen the Toney vs Glen Thomas fight but im pretty sure Thomas did okay against Toney, where as against Roy he was starched off the ropes with a beautiful left hook. Thornton went the distance with Toney & Eubank, whilst Roy dropped him and forced a stoppage (debatable)

Malinga beat Benn twice as far as im concerned, although he did not get the verdict first time around, he also lost a split decision to Eubank, Jones knocked him out.

Reggie Johnson barely won one round against Roy Jones, yet he beat Steve Collins decisively.

Eric Harding outboxed Tarver and broke one his ribs in what was a boring !! fight, Roy beat Harding of coarse.

Virgil Hill self explanatory.

Griffin outboxed James Toney twice, albeit he might not have deserved the second fight.

I dont know why people use the McCallum fighg to build up Roy's resume, its not a great win for Jones, McCallum lost clearly to Fabrice Tiozzo not long before that and he looked his age in that fight, McCallum's last good performance before that was Jeff Harding.

Gonzalez went on to beat DariuszMichalczewski after getting dominated by Jones.

Yea, but that was a faded Michalczewski. He was 35 by then and rusty after waiting for so many years for a title fight with Jones and fighting too many second rate fighters.

Obama
10-06-2009, 10:48 AM
Wow, IDK where to even start with the biased hate on RJJ in this thread. First I would have him top 20 range ATG, no way anyone should have him past top 30. I saw more than once posters saying he never beat Tarver. Maybe you should actually watch the fight and see he won 8 rounds to 4 in the first fight.

Look here Allentown, maybe you should make a list of the 20 guys ahead of him and the 20 guys right after him to show you have a clue about how many great fighters there have been.

As far as seeing fights goes, seen them. Roy got the nod, I don't argue with it too much, but it was far from a decisive victory and it could have easily gone the other way.

Roy Jones resume should be stronger than it is, that said he did away with some credible opponents quite decisively and made them look like average fighters, Glenn Wolfe went 12 with James Toney whilst Jones dealt with him in 1 round on the Barkley /Toney undercard. Ive not seen the Toney vs Glen Thomas fight but im pretty sure Thomas did okay against Toney, where as against Roy he was starched off the ropes with a beautiful left hook. Thornton went the distance with Toney & Eubank, whilst Roy dropped him and forced a stoppage (debatable)


Malinga beat Benn twice as far as im concerned, although he did not get the verdict first time around, he also lost a split decision to Eubank, Jones knocked him out.


Eubank had just put Watson in a coma. He was psychologically disturbed and never got the fire in his belly again.

The win over Benn in '96 means little. He was done as a top fighter after McClellan.


Reggie Johnson barely won one round against Roy Jones, yet he beat Steve Collins decisively.


Reggie Johnson was over the hill against Jones. And Steve Collins fans would beg to differ on the outcome of that fight, albeit I thought Johnson won.


Eric Harding outboxed Tarver and broke one his ribs in what was a boring !! fight, Roy beat Harding of coarse.


What did Tarver do to Harding in the rematch? Given the adversity Tarver went through in the first fight, he gets a pass.


Virgil Hill self explanatory.


You're right, he was past his prime and had already been dethroned by the guy Jones should have fought instead, Dariusz M.


Griffin outboxed James Toney twice, albeit he might not have deserved the second fight.


Griffin got 2 gifts. There was no out boxing in either fight, there was only out hustling, and only in the first fight. Your boy Timothy Bradley also out hustles people. Did you think he was out boxing Nate Campbell, or out boxed Kendall Holt? If so, you don't know what out boxing means at all.


I dont know why people use the McCallum fighg to build up Roy's resume, its not a great win for Jones, McCallum lost clearly to Fabrice Tiozzo not long before that and he looked his age in that fight, McCallum's last good performance before that was Jeff Harding.


At least you're on point here.


Gonzalez went on to beat DariuszMichalczewski after getting dominated by Jones.

Dariusz M fell off, what can I say? He was clearly better than Gonzalez in his prime. His problem was he tried to chase Rocky's number, always a mistake.

mickey malone
10-06-2009, 10:49 AM
Well if he's that great, why did he lose (convincingly) to Joe Calzaghe who was only 4 years younger with 2 (many times broken) slapping hands??

Why did he ruin his longevity to show off against one of the biggest wankers (Johnny Louise) the HW division has ever seen, only to come back down to L/H & get whacked out by Glenn Johnson (20-30 on all sensible lists) & Tarver, who's made a career out of 20 something fights & a Rocky movie..

All said, he was the best MW/SMW I've ever seen, but his order in 'Greatness' needs some serious evaluation..

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 11:16 AM
Look here Allentown, maybe you should make a list of the 20 guys ahead of him and the 20 guys right after him to show you have a clue about how many great fighters there have been.

As far as seeing fights goes, seen them. Roy got the nod, I don't argue with it too much, but it was far from a decisive victory and it could have easily gone the other way.



Eubank had just put Watson in a coma. He was psychologically disturbed and never got the fire in his belly again.

The win over Benn in '96 means little. He was done as a top fighter after McClellan.



Reggie Johnson was over the hill against Jones. And Steve Collins fans would beg to differ on the outcome of that fight, albeit I thought Johnson won.



What did Tarver do to Harding in the rematch? Given the adversity Tarver went through in the first fight, he gets a pass.



You're right, he was past his prime and had already been dethroned by the guy Jones should have fought instead, Dariusz M.



Griffin got 2 gifts. There was no out boxing in either fight, there was only out hustling, and only in the first fight. Your boy Timothy Bradley also out hustles people. Did you think he was out boxing Nate Campbell, or out boxed Kendall Holt? If so, you don't know what out boxing means at all.



At least you're on point here.



Dariusz M fell off, what can I say? He was clearly better than Gonzalez in his prime. His problem was he tried to chase Rocky's number, always a mistake.


Eubank had put Watson in a coma so he could not dominate Malinga with his Boxing skills? sounds like an excuses to me. Bottom line is he he won a SD whilst Jones knocked him out.

I dont think it matters that Benn lost to Malinga after the McClellan fight, Malinga handled him before that but got jobbed, once again Jones knocked Malinga out.

Well Steve Collins fans dont know how to score a fight because Reggie Johnson was giving it to Steve Collins by the end of that fight, infact he might have stopped him had it been a 15 round fight because he also hurt him towards the end.

He gets a pass because HARDING broke his rib, he did not enter the ring like that Harding broke his rib so he gets full credit for that, plus he was winning the fight anyway before Tarver went down.


Griffin got two gifts decision if you believe everything that comes through on the HBO telecast, but if you actually watch the fight without taking in all the BS Griffin won the first fight, he ring generaled James Toney. The second fight was debatable as i said but please!!! dont act like James Toney was robbed. I bet in 24 rounds neither Griffin nor Toney won many rounds decisively, that were the kind of fights they were, they were both low contact fights with little to choose between.

Obama
10-06-2009, 11:30 AM
Yea it's an excuse for Eubank, a GOOD exuse. They do exist you know. Facts are facts and he was never the same fighter again. His record before/after speaks for itself.

Also, you got the Harding vs Tarver fight all wrong. From hbo.com:


Tarver, then undefeated in 16 fights, suffered his first professional defeat at the hands of Eric Harding.

In a hard-fought, 12-round title eliminator, Tarver dominated the first half of the bout. After having his jaw broken in the ninth round, however, it became an uphill battle. Harding finished strong, knocking Tarver down in the 11th round en route to winning by decision. Although it was a tough defeat to swallow, Tarver displayed the heart of a champion.

"I am not making excuses, but, if you look at the fight, I dominated until my jaw got broke," Tarver said. "With the broken jaw, I was unable to finish as strongly as I wanted to. Look at the first nine rounds. It is obvious who the better fighter was."

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 11:38 AM
Yea it's an excuse for Eubank, a GOOD exuse. They do exist you know. Facts are facts and he was never the same fighter again. His record before/after speaks for itself.

Also, you got the Harding vs Tarver fight all wrong. From hbo.com:



That is not a fact its an opinion, whats a fact is that he won a SD.


I dont care what HBO's interpretation of the fight was ive seen the fight myself so i dont really care how someone else viewed it, Harding was infront on my card before Tarver went down, it was a very close fight but Harding's counter punching was a little sharper than Tarver's throughout.

Bob Papa commentated on the telecast i saw and he had it about the same

Obama
10-06-2009, 11:42 AM
That is not a fact its an opinion, whats a fact is that he won a SD.


I dont care what HBO's interpretation of the fight was ive seen the fight myself so i dont really care how someone else viewed it, Harding was infront on my card before Tarver went down, it was a very close fight but Harding's counter punching was a little sharper than Tarver's throughout.

Bob Papa commentated on the telecast i saw and he had it about the same

You said he broke Tarver's ribs, not jaw. Yet you've seen the fight? I find your analysis of bouts in general to be highly questionable...

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 11:43 AM
In a hard-fought, 12-round title eliminator,

The fact that the article says it was a hard fought battle lets you know about the reliability of the person that write it, it was a boring tactical fight for majority of the way with very few punches in the rounds.

You should do yourself a favour and you know, actually watch the fight yourself instead of nit picking what i post and using HBO's interpretation so you can diss Jones's resume some more.

Watch that fight and you will come back and tell me it was a tactical low contact fight most of the way, that what kind of fight it was.

Obama
10-06-2009, 11:45 AM
In a hard-fought, 12-round title eliminator,

The fact that the article says it was a hard fought battle lets you know about the reliability of the person that write it, it was a boring tactical fight for majority of the way with very few punches in the rounds.

You should do yourself a favour and you know, actually watch the fight yourself instead of nit picking what i post and using HBO's interpretation so you can diss Jones's resume some more.

Watch that fight and you will come back and tell me it was a tactical low contact fight most of the way, that what kind of fight it was.

Stop telling me to watch fights I've seen. You've already poorly scored plenty of other fights I highly disagree with, why should this be any different?

Do YOURSELF a favor and stifle. Also, hard fought has nothing to do with whether the fight was entertaining. :nonono:

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 11:48 AM
You said he broke Tarver's ribs, not jaw. Yet you've seen the fight? I find your analysis of bouts in general to be highly questionable...



I mistyped and put jaw instead of rib, infact i did not even know mistyped jaw until you just said.

Question it all you like im not one of these morons that speaks about fights ive not seen because that is just silly. I watched Tarver vs Johnson, Harding on the same night.

I posted earlier that i had not seen the Toney vs Glen Thomas fight, guess what ive just finished watching about 15 min ago, Toney vs Thomas.

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 11:58 AM
Stop telling me to watch fights I've seen. You've already poorly scored plenty of other fights I highly disagree with, why should this be any different?

Do YOURSELF a favor and stifle. Also, hard fought has nothing to do with whether the fight was entertaining. :nonono:



You have seen it but you are pulling HBO articles out your ass instead of telling me what you!! think happened, of coarse now you will scour the net looking for a read up and give me your interpretation lol

How can ive scored Toney v Griffin, Harding v Tarver poorly when they were both low contact fights with very little to choose between round by round, i realize it was a close fight where you can argue Toney won but it was not a robbery and i had Griffin winning myself, yet you call Toney vs Griffin a robbery even though it was a low contact fight with little to choose between the two. Im not poor at scoring fights its just i dont get swept along like a lemming with what HBO telecasts say or articles written by HBO about a fight nor do i exaggerate and call tactical fights hard fought.

I stand by what i said about the fight because ive seen it and anyone who reads my post about the fight and watches it will no it was a tactical fight, not hard fought :lol1: i would not argue if someone had Tarver infront because it was that kind of fight where the rounds were so tight that they could of swung one way or another, but to say Tarver was winning clearly is stupid. I had Harding winning a close fight but the KD sealed the deal.

Obama
10-06-2009, 12:16 PM
You have seen it but you are pulling HBO articles out your ass instead of telling me what you!! think happened, of coarse now you will scour the net looking for a read up and give me your interpretation lol

How can ive scored Toney v Griffin, Harding v Tarver poorly when they were both low contact fights with very little to choose between round by round, i realize it was a close fight where you can argue Toney won but it was not a robbery and i had Griffin winning myself, yet you call Toney vs Griffin a robbery even though it was a low contact fight with little to choose between the two. Im not poor at scoring fights its just i dont get swept along like a lemming with what HBO telecasts say or articles written by HBO about a fight nor do i exaggerate and call tactical fights hard fought.

I stand by what i said about the fight because ive seen it and anyone who reads my post about the fight and watches it will no it was a tactical fight, not hard fought :lol1: i would not argue if someone had Tarver infront because it was that kind of fight where the rounds were so tight that they could of swung one way or another, but to say Tarver was winning clearly is stupid. I had Harding winning a close fight but the KD sealed the deal.

You know, 50% of the problem with you is you don't understand what I tell you, or why I tell you it. I can't argue with a guy that doesn't even understand my position.

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 12:37 PM
You know, 50% of the problem with you is you don't understand what I tell you, or why I tell you it. I can't argue with a guy that doesn't even understand my position.



Thats convenient isn't it.

Mr Boxing9
10-06-2009, 12:39 PM
I talk ****, and don't now nothing about boxing, because I am a complete turd of the highest order. I have my own forum, but it only has 2 members and one is me, and no one will register on my forum because I talk horse ****

At least we agree on something.

Chr0nic
10-06-2009, 12:39 PM
Reggie Johnson was over the hill against Jones. And Steve Collins fans would beg to differ on the outcome of that fight, albeit I thought Johnson won.wow, reggies only losses before jones were all disputed(except his very first which i did'nt watch)
he without a doubt got robbed against toney(i thought he won that handily)
close fight against john jackson(according to th cards, did'nt watch)
two split decision loses against fernando castro(which roy jones walked right through)
and then loses EVERY round, getting knocked down twice and TOYED with against roy jones jr
his next lose is against antonio tarver, which came by another split decision

i dont care wht the **** you say cuz you got your head too far up your ass to be doin anything other than talkin ****, roy jones annihilated a very good fighter in reggie johnson, without breaking a sweat

mickey malone
10-06-2009, 12:57 PM
Eubank had put Watson in a coma so he could not dominate Malinga with his Boxing skills? sounds like an excuses to me. Bottom line is he he won a SD whilst Jones knocked him out.

I dont think it matters that Benn lost to Malinga after the McClellan fight, Malinga handled him before that but got jobbed, once again Jones knocked Malinga out.

Well Steve Collins fans dont know how to score a fight because Reggie Johnson was giving it to Steve Collins by the end of that fight, infact he might have stopped him had it been a 15 round fight because he also hurt him towards the end.

He gets a pass because HARDING broke his rib, he did not enter the ring like that Harding broke his rib so he gets full credit for that, plus he was winning the fight anyway before Tarver went down.


Griffin got two gifts decision if you believe everything that comes through on the HBO telecast, but if you actually watch the fight without taking in all the BS Griffin won the first fight, he ring generaled James Toney. The second fight was debatable as i said but please!!! dont act like James Toney was robbed. I bet in 24 rounds neither Griffin nor Toney won many rounds decisively, that were the kind of fights they were, they were both low contact fights with little to choose between.
What a load of ****!... What are you trying to say?....

A fight is a fight, & if 2 guys have trained to punch through walls & break bones, it's hardly surprising is it!?

RockyB
10-06-2009, 12:59 PM
I'd say Roy Jones is at least top 15, maybe 10 p4p.
its not easy finding guys that could beat him, especially not from his own era

IMDAZED
10-06-2009, 01:02 PM
Top 15-25.

Phenomenal accomplishments and while he didn't fight everyone his resume is still excellent, probably underrated. A true ATG.

Dynamite Kid
10-06-2009, 01:16 PM
.........................I dont understand what your trying to say MM

Leakbeak
10-06-2009, 01:52 PM
What he has done past his prime is about as relevant as Ali's fight with Burbick. RJJ is without doubt the p4p of his generation and the best fighter in this century so far. History will be kind to the king!

I like Floyd but he is p4p of the following generation, and not this century so far. His reflexes ae not as good as Roy's, and neither are his feakish natural qualities. RJJ was such a huge puncher too, even though he was reluctant to kill. Commentators (usually british) who say Floyd is most naturally talented fighter since Ray Leonard need a ****ing slap

GJC
10-06-2009, 03:19 PM
This forum has got some good posters getting very personal.
Come on gentlemen you guys are better than that.
Be boring if we agreed on everything but politeness always will have me listening to your views even if I don't agree whereas I tune out on rudeness even if the poster is making a valid argument.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 03:29 PM
The problem is that Jones never fought Michalczewski, Benn, Eubank or Collins. Without that, we can never know how great he was.

IMDAZED
10-06-2009, 03:44 PM
The problem is that Jones never fought Michalczewski, Benn, Eubank or Collins. Without that, we can never know how great he was.

Yeah, that's true. No one can say they're great until they fight those guys, regardless of who they beat :rolleyes:

Stoppage
10-06-2009, 04:01 PM
This forum has got some good posters getting very personal.
Come on gentlemen you guys are better than that.
Be boring if we agreed on everything but politeness always will have me listening to your views even if I don't agree whereas I tune out on rudeness even if the poster is making a valid argument.

In the end, you're right. But I still felt it was needed for this certain poster because of his insane favoritism.

Mr Boxing9
10-06-2009, 04:30 PM
Yeah, that's true. No one can say they're great until they fight those guys, regardless of who they beat :rolleyes:

Gotta agree with that...........:lol1:

IMDAZED
10-06-2009, 04:45 PM
Gotta agree with that...........:lol1:

:lol1:

Reminds me of that old George Foreman comment, when he came out of left field with, "No one can say they're pound for pound until they beat James Page."

Mr Boxing9
10-06-2009, 05:01 PM
:lol1:

Reminds me of that old George Foreman comment, when he came out of left field with, "No one can say they're pound for pound until they beat James Page."

:lol1::lol1::lol1:

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 05:35 PM
Yeah, that's true. No one can say they're great until they fight those guys, regardless of who they beat :rolleyes:

That's right.;) Glad you got that bit.:D

Obama
10-06-2009, 08:16 PM
wow, reggies only losses before jones were all disputed(except his very first which i did'nt watch)
he without a doubt got robbed against toney(i thought he won that handily)
close fight against john jackson(according to th cards, did'nt watch)
two split decision loses against fernando castro(which roy jones walked right through)
and then loses EVERY round, getting knocked down twice and TOYED with against roy jones jr
his next lose is against antonio tarver, which came by another split decision

i dont care wht the **** you say cuz you got your head too far up your ass to be doin anything other than talkin ****, roy jones annihilated a very good fighter in reggie johnson, without breaking a sweat

You know Reggie debuted in '84, right? You know Jones fought him in '99, right? You realize I never said Reggie wasn't an elite fighter in his prime, right? It's a good win for Jones, far from a great one. Perhaps the manner in which he beat Reggie was great, but the victory itself was not. Roy Jones, like Mike Tyson, blew fighters out of the water who weren't close to his level. It's just what they were good at. This does not translate to their ability to beat great fighters.

What he has done past his prime is about as relevant as Ali's fight with Burbick.

Wrong. What Roy does NOW (or maybe even a little after now) is that relevant. What Roy did in '04 however? Far from it. What Roy did in '04 is to be compared to what Ali did around '73 to '75. In '74 Ali beat Frazier and Foreman, in '04 Roy got KOed by Tarver and Johnson.

Now tell me, which guy seemed to be the greater fighter post-prime? Post-prime always matters. It's when the guy is completely shot (what Ali was against Berbick) is when it doesn't matter that he gets beat up.

Steward
10-06-2009, 08:54 PM
Why do people keep saying Hopkins wasn't in his prime? When is his prime? he had just won 22 fights in a row.... Hopkins is a testament as to how good Jones is... Hopkins was clever enough to realise, when Jones went up in weight he could own a whole division, Jones had pretty much cleared it out. Thats why he never fought Jones again at light heavyweight. Not a good reason not to, it's Hopkin's natural weight it was offered (all the youtube videos with their squabble on) He was too good for his own good.

Say all you want about his legacy, there was no one more exciting to watch....

Useless you want to wait around another 106 years....

Obama
10-06-2009, 09:06 PM
When is his prime?

'97 to '03.

JAB5239
10-06-2009, 09:29 PM
The following guys could have fought a prime RJJ at LHW:

Dariusz M
Joe Calzaghe
Steve Collins
James Toney (clearly robbed blind in the 2nd Griffin fight)

Also Bernard was willing to meet him at SMW.

Not going to blame Roy, but, hey, none of the fights came off. And all of the fights would have been deemed better wins than what he currently has on his LHW resume.

I agree they would have added to his legacy at 175. Thing is, none of them put themselves into a mandatory position to fight Roy at that weight, and neither Roy or DM would budge and try and meet in the middle. I think a prime Roy would beat all of them, but I would have preferred the fights to have been made so we could know for sure.

By the way, PissPooper has been banned again.

IMDAZED
10-06-2009, 11:16 PM
Hopkins, like JONES, wasn't in his prime in 1993. Nevertheless, both were good enough to go without defeat for eons after meeting.

wpink1
10-06-2009, 11:36 PM
Anyone who has the speed and skill to catch him would beat him.

If Tarver got to him, then I can think of about 40 other fighters that could.

Your right...However your leaving out a major issue,,,No one ever had the speed he had at middle through Light heavy. Tarver would not have touched a prime Roy Jones, and you know it. Mighty funny everyone is talking about roy after 36, but still rank Ali high (which i do) look at the ass whipping he took. Lost to spinks who had only 10 fights stopped by holmes and lost to berbick...

Prime Roy is top 2-3 middleweight of all time, just to fast, strong, unorthodox, for other middles...made a lot of mistaks, but no one could touch him. he was faster at middle than SRL was at welter.

People want to make excuses for Toney. Toney knew the date and the time of the fight..no excuses, he got his ass handed to him and lost almost every single round. Was not even close. Hopkins fought a one handed Roy Jones, fight was almost called off. Hopkins was green and so was Roy...So lets not make it like a vastly more professionally exprienced roy took advantange of Hopkins. roy beats hopkins 99 times out of 100 in their peak.

wpink1
10-06-2009, 11:47 PM
You know Reggie debuted in '84, right? You know Jones fought him in '99, right? You realize I never said Reggie wasn't an elite fighter in his prime, right? It's a good win for Jones, far from a great one. Perhaps the manner in which he beat Reggie was great, but the victory itself was not. Roy Jones, like Mike Tyson, blew fighters out of the water who weren't close to his level. It's just what they were good at. This does not translate to their ability to beat great fighters.



Wrong. What Roy does NOW (or maybe even a little after now) is that relevant. What Roy did in '04 however? Far from it. What Roy did in '04 is to be compared to what Ali did around '73 to '75. In '74 Ali beat Frazier and Foreman, in '04 Roy got KOed by Tarver and Johnson.

Now tell me, which guy seemed to be the greater fighter post-prime? Post-prime always matters. It's when the guy is completely shot (what Ali was against Berbick) is when it doesn't matter that he gets beat up.

You need to examine your facts. Roy faced 2 greats.. Stop with the excuses of making wieght..etc..then target roy for losing to Tarver.

If you look at roy for his first 15years, he is a top 15 all timer based on accomplishments. He beat 2 fighters who were not old and shot,but at their peak or enroute to it, rather easily. Some talk about all who toney had to fight, then that should have prepared him for Roy Correct. What happened inside the ring. No lets not whine about making weight. They are professional fighters, they both know the date and the time, it is a part of their profession to take care of their body so that they are primed for the fight.

Roy beat 22 champions 19 world champions, defended his title 13+ times between middle to light heavy. He was undefeated for 15years, and defended his light heavy title over 10 times beating number 1 challenger after number 1 challenger. He then moved up and beat a heavywieght champion clearly, not running but fought him and beat him. Then an only then did you see a decline after He had to rapidly lose muscle weight, and aged too.

Yes it is true that his lack of proper mechanis, how to hook and come back, jab, leaning back from the punch...etc.. All this impacted his ability after he lost his reflexes.. However if we judge fighters like chavez, duran, leonard, Ali up until physicially they are not the same, then lets do the same for Roy.

Finally what is stoppin hm from being top 5, is there are names out there he did not fight and should have. I make no excuses, he had every opportunty to fight DM, eubanks, Nunn, Collins. Outsideof Nunn at the time, who would have been favored to even compete with him? None of them. Yes you have to fight and beat them..I agree, but he beat damm near 20 world champions, and defended his light heavy title 13 times...maybe 12..Either way, he was the real deal. People say he had a glass jaw..Hmm where was this glass jaw the 1st 15 years of his career.

Obama
10-07-2009, 12:37 AM
My facts are accurate. How many of those 19 world champions were lineal or ring magazine champions? Even C level fighters win alphabet soup titles sometimes.

Some fighters have 10+ lineal/ring champs on their resume.

I bring up Toney because it's the ONLY elite fighter Roy ever beat. Had he beat more, Toney's weight could be over looked. But the fact is he didn't. Toney was even advised by doctors not to fight. The one fight Roy had a chance to successfully prove how great his skills were was a fight that is tainted, fact.

wpink1
10-07-2009, 01:31 AM
My facts are accurate. How many of those 19 world champions were lineal or ring magazine champions? Even C level fighters win alphabet soup titles sometimes.

Some fighters have 10+ lineal/ring champs on their resume.

I bring up Toney because it's the ONLY elite fighter Roy ever beat. Had he beat more, Toney's weight could be over looked. But the fact is he didn't. Toney was even advised by doctors not to fight. The one fight Roy had a chance to successfully prove how great his skills were was a fight that is tainted, fact.

I will agree that Roy had some horrible challenges. I often argued this. However, he did beat 19 world champions, and did unify the title at Light heavy, was clearly the best in the world for 10 years. When he faced Hopkins Roy was told not to fight, but he did not want to cancel the fight, and beat hopkinis with out a right hand, pretty much having to slap it. AS for Toney, you cant bring up excuses. Every fighter has an excuse when they lose. Have you ever seen a good fighter lose with out a excuse. Toney would not be roy on his best day. Styles make fights. Remember toney was losing to another speedster Michael nunn before he caught up to him, but Toney did not look good in that fight either.

Roy probably would/couild beat any middlweight that ever lived. That is a big statement but think about it he simply was too big and stong for Robinsonl, and he simply would clown all these other middles.

IMDAZED
10-07-2009, 09:38 AM
I will agree that Roy had some horrible challenges. I often argued this. However, he did beat 19 world champions, and did unify the title at Light heavy, was clearly the best in the world for 10 years. When he faced Hopkins Roy was told not to fight, but he did not want to cancel the fight, and beat hopkinis with out a right hand, pretty much having to slap it. AS for Toney, you cant bring up excuses. Every fighter has an excuse when they lose. Have you ever seen a good fighter lose with out a excuse. Toney would not be roy on his best day. Styles make fights. Remember toney was losing to another speedster Michael nunn before he caught up to him, but Toney did not look good in that fight either.

Roy probably would/couild beat any middlweight that ever lived. That is a big statement but think about it he simply was too big and stong for Robinsonl, and he simply would clown all these other middles.

That weight excuse for Toney is lame. Four months before Jones, he put one of his best performances at 168. Not to mention has always had weight issues - even as a heavy. Yet somehow only Jones managed to kick his a** in such a manner.

GJC
10-07-2009, 01:43 PM
My facts are accurate. How many of those 19 world champions were lineal or ring magazine champions? Even C level fighters win alphabet soup titles sometimes.

Some fighters have 10+ lineal/ring champs on their resume.

I bring up Toney because it's the ONLY elite fighter Roy ever beat. Had he beat more, Toney's weight could be over looked. But the fact is he didn't. Toney was even advised by doctors not to fight. The one fight Roy had a chance to successfully prove how great his skills were was a fight that is tainted, fact.
You're definately not a fan of RJJ. Sonnyboyx2 got Lennox and you got Roy lol.

Stoppage
10-07-2009, 03:14 PM
I think most of us can agree that every time an elite fighter loses people have to make up an excuse for it.

The Toney weight issue and the Hopkins not in his prime claims are ridiculous. You can twist any record you want around to make it seem good or bad.

For example, you can say Ray Robinson's victories over LaMotta were not a good because LaMotta was known for ballooning up after fights. Or Muhammad Ali's victory over Floyd Patterson is not a good one because Patterson wasn't in his prime.

The point is these are bogus. You can twist anyone's good wins around to make it seem bad.

Benncollinsaad
10-07-2009, 05:11 PM
Roy would stand no chance against Matthew Saad Muhammad.;) He would have no weapon against him. Saad LOVED a good, bloody brawl and could take punishment as well as anybody ever did. But Saad's power would be too much for Roy. Even if he outboxed him for 11 rounds, he'd get stopped in the 12th.

wpink1
10-08-2009, 01:18 AM
Roy would stand no chance against Matthew Saad Muhammad.;) He would have no weapon against him. Saad LOVED a good, bloody brawl and could take punishment as well as anybody ever did. But Saad's power would be too much for Roy. Even if he outboxed him for 11 rounds, he'd get stopped in the 12th.g

I agree that Saad's power would be too much. However peak roy, IMO would simply not be touched by Muhammad. He was so damme fast, and awkard. However your dead right, if the power lands, or Roy is stationary, then Muhammad wins.

robjr
10-12-2009, 04:39 AM
BS! Taylor beat Hopkins clearly both times and so did Calzaghe!

yer on somethin..

blacklodge
10-17-2009, 02:21 AM
RJJ's backer tend to point out the wasteland at 175 when defending his lack of quality opposition. What about these guys:
Nigel Benn
Chris Eubank
Steve Collins
Michael Nunn (at 168 and 175)
Gerald McClellan
Frank Liles
Julian Jackson
Reggie Johnson (at 160)
John David Jackson

There are others. Not to say that any of these guys would have beat him, not to say that any of these guys were lining up to fight him, but there were a lot of good fighters at both 160 and 168 that Jones just didn't fight. Doesn't matter why. He did this his whole career. ATGs don't pass up these guys and fight Tony friggin' Thorton and Bryant Brannon. You can't be top 30, 40, 50 P4P by fighting 1 great but mentally irregular fighter (Toney) and get retroactive credit for another (Hopkins). He could have been the greatest fighter ever to walk the planet, but you have to prove it, earn it. He didn't. It's not fair to the fighters who did earn it. In that sense, his bad losses to Tarver, Johnson and Calzaghe and the next one to Hopkins won't change a thing. He never was to begin with.