View Full Version : Is Holyfield a more accomplished fighter than Tyson?


STILL_DETOX
10-03-2009, 07:09 PM
at CW
at HW
overall? wat do u guys think.

Stoppage
10-03-2009, 07:27 PM
Holyfield is more accomplished than Tyson. He even beat Tyson twice. He was a lot older than him and was considered a great underdog in their first fight. Plus, he's a 4-time heavyweight champion.

Mersey
10-03-2009, 08:20 PM
Holyfield had a better carreer overall. Tyson could have acheived great things (maybe). But the fact is, he didn't do that much compared to Holyfield.

RightCross94
10-03-2009, 08:21 PM
Hell yes, how is this even a question?

Undisputed CW champ

2 Time Undisputed HW champ

2 Time HW titlist

Wins over Qawi, De Leon, Dokes, Tillis, Bowe, Moorer, Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, Cooper, Stweart, Ruiz etc

STILL_DETOX
10-03-2009, 08:42 PM
i shoudl show this thread to my friend who disagrees..


also:

won a 15 round fight
still fighting at 46
the 1 and only 4 time HW champ
The Ring Fighter of the Year for 1987, 1996, 1997.

RightCross94
10-03-2009, 08:52 PM
i shoudl show this thread to my friend who disagrees..


also:

won a 15 round fight
still fighting at 46
the 1 and only 4 time HW champ
The Ring Fighter of the Year for 1987, 1996, 1997.

That too.....

Was Holy-Qawi I the FOTY?

Stoppage
10-03-2009, 09:29 PM
That too.....

Was Holy-Qawi I the FOTY?

Nope. The fight of the year for that year went to a featherweight championship fight.

crold1
10-04-2009, 07:50 PM
Nope. The fight of the year for that year went to a featherweight championship fight.

One of a number of stupid FOTY calls by Ring to include:
NOT naming Pryor-AA I FOTY (preferring Chacon-Boza I believe)
Ali-Spinks II instead of Holmes-Norton
Gatti-Ward III over Jirov-Toney
and I dare anyone to watch McGuigan-Cruz and Holy-Qawi I back to back and say "Yeah, good call."

Obama
10-04-2009, 09:03 PM
It's close. 4 best people Holyfield beat are better than the 4 best Tyson beat (Tyson, Bowe, Mercer, Moorer), but under them Tyson's resume and performance is better. Holyfield also lost to Moorer and Bowe and got a decision that could have easily went to Mercer.

The Tyson of '96 that Holy beat is also not the same Tyson of '88.

crold1
10-04-2009, 09:26 PM
It's close. 4 best people Holyfield beat are better than the 4 best Tyson beat (Tyson, Bowe, Mercer, Moorer), but under them Tyson's resume and performance is better. Holyfield also lost to Moorer and Bowe and got a decision that could have easily went to Mercer.

The Tyson of '96 that Holy beat is also not the same Tyson of '88.

The Holy of 96 wasn't the offensive machine Holy of the late 80s/early 90s either.

GJC
10-04-2009, 09:28 PM
Sort of a matter of unloading the question really.
Is Holyfield a better HW than Tyson, in my view no, not prime for prime.
Tyson always struck me as a fighter with a great plan A and no plan B to fall back on whereas Holyfield I think could dig in and claw a result out better.
Think Holyfield had more ring smarts than Tyson.
So I guess to sum up I think Holy had a broader range of skills than Tyson so if that makes him more acomplished then yes.

Obama
10-04-2009, 09:30 PM
The Holy of 96 wasn't the offensive machine Holy of the late 80s/early 90s either.

Yea, but he was like the Ali that beat George Foreman. Tyson never had moments of brilliance in his later years. He loaded up to score 1 punch KOs, if he couldn't land that 1 punch he didn't win. There was no plan B.

Bushidō
10-04-2009, 11:11 PM
those years in prison messed up Tyson. And his messing around with woman and probably drugs contributed to him falling off so quickly

Verstyle
10-05-2009, 12:34 AM
I'm going with Holyfield, too much accomplishments there.

mickey malone
10-05-2009, 05:51 AM
This is a No Brainer.. Tyson was shot, around the same age that Holyfield was in his prime...

The Iron Man
10-05-2009, 01:38 PM
The Holy of 96 wasn't the offensive machine Holy of the late 80s/early 90s either.

But the 96 version of Holyfield was the best version for a match against Tyson.

THE REED™
10-05-2009, 01:39 PM
those years in prison messed up Tyson. And his messing around with woman and probably drugs contributed to him falling off so quickly

It was Cus dying that started entire downfall.

Bigmacpoper
10-05-2009, 01:59 PM
Greater Cruiserweight? Evander Holyield
Greater Heavyweight? Mike Tyson

But oh wait,Tyson never actually fought at cruiserweight so thats kind of irrelevant here.

But Mike Tyson was the greater,more accomplished fighter for certain.


It was Cus dying that started entire downfall.

Sure,if you wish to romanticize the whole story,but as shown,Tyson's performances hardly declined after the death of Cus D'amato.In fact,his competition was improved and he still looked like the destructive force that he did when he was knocking out journeyman as a prospect under the tutorledge of Cus D'amato.

Tyson destroyed a top heavyweight in Trevor Berbick just a year after Cus D'amato's death and destroyed lineal heavyweight champion in Michael Spinks just two and a half years after the death of Cus D'amato.

CCobra
10-05-2009, 02:04 PM
Tyson's involvement with the wrong people is what eventually led to him firing Kevin Rooney. Which effectively ended the Mike Tyson that we all knew. Destructive Tyson was the Tyson with head movement, footwork, speed & devastating combinations. Post-Rooney, Tyson began to forget the fundamentals and rely solely on his power.

Benncollinsaad
10-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Anybody who says no is a nuthugger.

GJC
10-05-2009, 07:44 PM
Sure,if you wish to romanticize the whole story,but as shown,Tyson's performances hardly declined after the death of Cus D'amato.In fact,his competition was improved and he still looked like the destructive force that he did when he was knocking out journeyman as a prospect under the tutorledge of Cus D'amato.
Tyson destroyed a top heavyweight in Trevor Berbick just a year after Cus D'amato's death and destroyed lineal heavyweight champion in Michael Spinks just two and a half years after the death of Cus D'amato.
I agree the major part of the Tyson story happened after D'Amato's death but I think if he'd have still been alive he might have kept Tyson on the straight and narrow and away from the Givens's and King's of this world.
Tyson's major problems were/are always been mental, might be more accurate to say his problems started after Jacobs death, who was another steadying influence?

bojangles1987
10-05-2009, 08:58 PM
Obviously. It's not even a real question.

Bigmacpoper
10-05-2009, 09:39 PM
I agree the major part of the Tyson story happened after D'Amato's death but I think if he'd have still been alive he might have kept Tyson on the straight and narrow and away from the Givens's and King's of this world.
Tyson's major problems were/are always been mental, might be more accurate to say his problems started after Jacobs death, who was another steadying influence?

Yes but that is Tyson's personal life we are talking about now and even when Cus was alive he allowed Tyson to get away with alot of his street antics without punishment.

I'm not trying to rubbish their relationship and Teddy Atlas is a bitter cunt but perhaps there was an element of truth there.


Didn't Tyson claim in that documentary of his that Jacobs and bill Clayton robbed him of a great deal of money?

ThegreatA posted a floyd Patterson article in which Patterson also accuses the two of doing the same to him


Anybody who says no is a nuthugger.

Or perhaps they just know more about this sport than you do,then again that's hardly an accomplishment is it?

I mean the average casual viewer who tuned into the Leonards,De La Hoya's,Ali's and Tysons has the same if not more knowledge on this sport than you do.



Obviously. It's not even a real question.

Go away and go watch Da Pacman or something.

GJC
10-05-2009, 09:51 PM
Didn't Tyson claim in that documentary of his that Jacobs and bill Clayton robbed him of a great deal of money?



I have to admit I have that documentary on dvd but still haven't watched it.
I do remember reading that Robin Gives when she was making a grab for Tyson's money had a forensic audit done on his "books" to prove thatClayton was ripping him off and it was discovered that Clayton had overpaid him!

I think maybe some of King's drival against Jacobs and Clayton got through re Tyson's claims?
I reckon Clayton and Jacobs probably trail a distant 3rd to Givens and KIng on who got the most Tyson money.

Silencers
10-06-2009, 04:06 AM
I think he is.

MANGLER
10-06-2009, 04:12 AM
Yea he is. Nobody will ever achieve the same rep Mike had, but Holy did more overall.

Benncollinsaad
10-06-2009, 09:40 AM
Yes but that is Tyson's personal life we are talking about now and even when Cus was alive he allowed Tyson to get away with alot of his street antics without punishment.

I'm not trying to rubbish their relationship and Teddy Atlas is a bitter cunt but perhaps there was an element of truth there.


Didn't Tyson claim in that documentary of his that Jacobs and bill Clayton robbed him of a great deal of money?

ThegreatA posted a floyd Patterson article in which Patterson also accuses the two of doing the same to him




Or perhaps they just know more about this sport than you do,then again that's hardly an accomplishment is it?

I mean the average casual viewer who tuned into the Leonards,De La Hoya's,Ali's and Tysons has the same if not more knowledge on this sport than you do.




Go away and go watch Da Pacman or something.


I don't claim to know that much about boxing, but I know more than you.;) I love boxing and that is enough. I don't go around bragging about my knowledge like certain people.:nonono:

So, once and for all-PISS OFF!

P.S. Learn how to write son, your columns are too wide apart from one another.

mickey malone
10-06-2009, 09:59 AM
I have to admit I have that documentary on dvd but still haven't watched it.
I do remember reading that Robin Gives when she was making a grab for Tyson's money had a forensic audit done on his "books" to prove thatClayton was ripping him off and it was discovered that Clayton had overpaid him!

I think maybe some of King's drival against Jacobs and Clayton got through re Tyson's claims?
I reckon Clayton and Jacobs probably trail a distant 3rd to Givens and KIng on who got the most Tyson money.
You need to watch that!... Superb, but there's a big fuss over the passing of D'Amato, and then, plenty of footage on Jacobs, but not a single word about his untimely death... Strange, but true! Which obviously suggests that he WAS ripped off by Cayton/Jacobs..

However, this wouldn't remotely compare to Robbing Givens, her cunt of a mother, or Potato Washington...

LondonRingRules
10-07-2009, 11:42 PM
The Holy of 96 wasn't the offensive machine Holy of the late 80s/early 90s either.

** The Unholy juggernaut was blown to smithereens by Big George, a supposedly easy 1st defense to give George a late retirement payday.

Holy absorbed unholy punishment and was hanging by a thread the last few rounds. His KO % drops from something like 80% to 20% from here on, and his stamina and boxing acumen seemed to give way to a brawler clubfighter style, not a brilliant offensive machine. He was clueless for much of the Cooper and Holmes followup fights for example, two guys who lacked the power, strength, and endurance of Big George. Cooper was considered shot and Larry had to hang on the ropes to keep from keeling over for much of the fight.

So, the answer to the question is a resounding NO. The unholy one never put together any consistency at heavy, his title record being 10-7-2 and likely enhanced beyond the norm by PED use. His heavy career reminds me of Saad Muhammed, always taking beatings, staging comebacks, and then hanging on far too long.

The current unlicensed phase of his career is only serving to throw an unwelcome spotlight on him and is damaging his health beyond repair.

RightCross94
10-08-2009, 12:01 AM
** The Unholy juggernaut was blown to smithereens by Big George, a supposedly easy 1st defense to give George a late retirement payday.

Holy absorbed unholy punishment and was hanging by a thread the last few rounds. His KO % drops from something like 80% to 20% from here on, and his stamina and boxing acumen seemed to give way to a brawler clubfighter style, not a brilliant offensive machine. He was clueless for much of the Cooper and Holmes followup fights for example, two guys who lacked the power, strength, and endurance of Big George. Cooper was considered shot and Larry had to hang on the ropes to keep from keeling over for much of the fight.

So, the answer to the question is a resounding NO. The unholy one never put together any consistency at heavy, his title record being 10-7-2 and likely enhanced beyond the norm by PED use. His heavy career reminds me of Saad Muhammed, always taking beatings, staging comebacks, and then hanging on far too long.

The current unlicensed phase of his career is only serving to throw an unwelcome spotlight on him and is damaging his health beyond repair.

I can understand why people hate Floyd, because he can be arrogant, I understand why many Puerto Ricans and Mexicans dont like each others fighters, because of their pride in their respective heritages, but how could anyone have an agenda against Holyfield? The guy has done nothing but fight hard his whole career and loves the sport so mcuh he's refusing to retire.

masta
10-08-2009, 12:01 AM
He definitely is. He had three world titles in the cruiserweight division and then moved up to beat the man who beat Tyson. He also beat Tyson twice, himself. Also, he has better wins than Tyson.

Ziggy Stardust
10-08-2009, 12:43 AM
I can understand why people hate Floyd, because he can be arrogant, I understand why many Puerto Ricans and Mexicans dont like each others fighters, because of their pride in their respective heritages, but how could anyone have an agenda against Holyfield? The guy has done nothing but fight hard his whole career and loves the sport so mcuh he's refusing to retire.

LRR aka "The Village Idiot" has a bug up his ass about Evander Holyfield. And Larry Holmes. And Bernard Hopkins. And then there's his personal crusade against Muhammed Ali.....

Poet

RightCross94
10-08-2009, 07:17 AM
LRR aka "The Village Idiot" has a bug up his ass about Evander Holyfield. And Larry Holmes. And Bernard Hopkins. And then there's his personal crusade against Muhammed Ali.....

Poet

It's bizzare really, Ali, Holmes, Hopkins and Evander are all highly accomplished, universally respected fighters. What is the point of having an agenda against them? He's just a very un-objective, irrational individual.

Spray_resistant
10-08-2009, 09:31 AM
Ask yourself this. Since they are both old and their careers are over or pretty much over.....who's career would you preferred to have had and ended with? I know my answer.

Ziggy Stardust
10-08-2009, 09:56 AM
It's bizzare really, Ali, Holmes, Hopkins and Evander are all highly accomplished, universally respected fighters. What is the point of having an agenda against them? He's just a very un-objective, irrational individual.

I think the fact that they ARE highly accomplished and universally respected is the reason for his derision. I personally don't think he believes there's any such thing as objective reality (there ARE such people out there!).....either that or he's just senile.

Poet

GJC
10-08-2009, 06:12 PM
** The Unholy juggernaut was blown to smithereens by Big George, a supposedly easy 1st defense to give George a late retirement payday.

Holy absorbed unholy punishment and was hanging by a thread the last few rounds.
Foreman put up a reasonable show but Holyfield won comfortably.

No actually your right Holyfield struggled like Ali did against Terrell and Middleberger the decision was as much a travesty as those were :)

GJC
10-08-2009, 06:13 PM
either that or he's just senile.
Poet
Hey there's nothing wrong with being senile :)

Bright-Eyes
10-08-2009, 06:22 PM
LRR aka "The Village Idiot" has a bug up his ass about Evander Holyfield. And Larry Holmes. And Bernard Hopkins. And then there's his personal crusade against Muhammed Ali.....

Poet


You forgot Ray Leonard,Jack Johnson and who can forget James Toney.He hasn't been around alot for the past two and a half months or so.




Foreman put up a reasonable show but Holyfield won comfortably.

No actually your right Holyfield struggled like Ali did against Terrell and Middleberger the decision was as much a travesty as those were :)


We simply missed such great struggles because we didn't have HD like LRR had at the time.

BennyST
10-09-2009, 08:23 AM
One of a number of stupid FOTY calls by Ring to include:
NOT naming Pryor-AA I FOTY (preferring Chacon-Boza I believe)
Ali-Spinks II instead of Holmes-Norton
Gatti-Ward III over Jirov-Toney
and I dare anyone to watch McGuigan-Cruz and Holy-Qawi I back to back and say "Yeah, good call."

Yeah, they have had some pretty damn stupid ones above much greater fights, though I must admit that I don't agree with Pryor/Arguello being that much better than Chacon/Edwards, if at all in fact. That was one of the most amazing fights in the history of the sport. That was the real Rocky story. Life falling to pieces, wife just died, no one thought he could win this fight let along another title and he was getting hammered, nearly stopped, busted up then somehow, somewhere pulled some weird resevoir of will from nowhere came back and knocked him down and nearly out to pull of a razor thin decision..... Truly amazing.

Gatti/Ward wasn't anything like Jirov/Toney which is still one of the best fights I've ever seen.

McGuigan/Cruz though is simply a disgrace. Great fight and all but it absolutely doesn't even compare to Holyfield/Qawi. Not even in the same ballpark.