View Full Version : Which Middleweights were better then Hopkins?


The Noose
09-29-2009, 10:33 AM
Les Darcy, Marvin Hagler, Harry Greb, Stanley Ketchel, Ray Robinson, Jake La Motta, Emile Griffith, Carlos Monzon, Mickey"toy bulldog" Walker, Tony Zale, Carmen Basilio, Gene Fullmer, Marcel Cerdan, Tiger Flowers, Sam Langford, Joey Giardello & Dick Tiger ***65279;

They all fought in strong Middleweight eras, fighting good fully fledged Middleweights.

If Hopkins best wins are against smaller men moving up, and he also lost to Jones, and Calzaghe, how does he compare to the names above?

Dynamite Kid
09-29-2009, 10:50 AM
They all fought in strong Middleweight eras, fighting good fully fledged Middleweights.

If Hopkins best wins are against smaller men moving up, and he also lost to Jones, and Calzaghe, how does he compare to the names above?

You say" best wins" but i dont think anyone considers the DLH win any better than his wins over a prime Pavlik or lets say Winky, Tarver.

Joe Calzaghe did not beat Nard Hopkins as far as im concerned, you have to land punches to win rounds, not flail away hitting the air, i dont give subliminal points for direction of motion or ineffective aggression, that is why i would of called it a draw because neither guy did enough to win.

Joey Giardello
09-29-2009, 11:26 AM
Carlos Monzon, Harry Greb, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Billy conn, Jake La motta, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Ryan, Stanley Ketchel, Sugar Ray Robinson, Rodrigo Valdes, Les Darcy, Michael nunn, Gerald Mccellan, James Toney and Joey Giardello all could of beat hopkins on there best day and hopkins best day! hopkins best wins were over a blown up lightwelter in oscar, and blown up over trained trinidad, for me hopkins has been a better lightheavy than middle, he just made more defences of his titles at middle. Also hopkins lost twice to taylor could you see jermain beating a carlos monzon or marvin hagler? i dont think so. I think hopkins as a middleweight is very over rated and he has looked better beating bigger, harder fighters at lighthheavy

sonnyboyx2
09-29-2009, 11:35 AM
You say" best wins" but i dont think anyone considers the DLH win any better than his wins over a prime Pavlik or lets say Winky, Tarver.

Joe Calzaghe did not beat Nard Hopkins as far as im concerned, you have to land punches to win rounds, not flail away hitting the air, i dont give subliminal points for direction of motion or ineffective aggression, that is why i would of called it a draw because neither guy did enough to win.
i agree with you.. i dont think Calzaghe beat Bhop i feel Bhop kinda gifted the result to Calzaghe by faining injury... i had Bhop winning the fight, but his actions late on were bazzar.. i think he was trying to get the crowd and judges on his side but it backfired, Calzaghe never landed any correct punches which would have earned him points and the decision, i had it for Hopkins 6-5-1 rds

Joey Giardello
09-29-2009, 12:29 PM
i agree with you.. i dont think Calzaghe beat Bhop i feel Bhop kinda gifted the result to Calzaghe by faining injury... i had Bhop winning the fight, but his actions late on were bazzar.. i think he was trying to get the crowd and judges on his side but it backfired, Calzaghe never landed any correct punches which would have earned him points and the decision, i had it for Hopkins 6-5-1 rds

the calzaghe/hopkins fight should of been a draw, for me it just shows how great of a fighter joe was, to get up of the floor and claw hiscway back into the fight, thats the sign of a great fighter

Joey Giardello
09-29-2009, 12:30 PM
i agree with you.. i dont think Calzaghe beat Bhop i feel Bhop kinda gifted the result to Calzaghe by faining injury... i had Bhop winning the fight, but his actions late on were bazzar.. i think he was trying to get the crowd and judges on his side but it backfired, Calzaghe never landed any correct punches which would have earned him points and the decision, i had it for Hopkins 6-5-1 rds

the calzaghe/hokind fight should of been a draw, for me it just shows how great of a fighter joe was, to get up of the floor and claw his way back into the fight, thats the sign of a great fighter

Dynamite Kid
09-29-2009, 12:39 PM
i agree with you.. i dont think Calzaghe beat Bhop i feel Bhop kinda gifted the result to Calzaghe by faining injury... i had Bhop winning the fight, but his actions late on were bazzar.. i think he was trying to get the crowd and judges on his side but it backfired, Calzaghe never landed any correct punches which would have earned him points and the decision, i had it for Hopkins 6-5-1 rds

Well i would of called a draw personally, but if pushed on the issue i would of leaned towards Hopkins, why? because at least he imposed his game plan on Calzaghe, albeit he did do it for long enough, that is why i cant give him the fight, that said he (Hopkins) was the more effective out of the two imo.

mickey malone
09-29-2009, 05:21 PM
Monzon
Hagler
Jones
Greb
Robinson
Ketchel

Would be my pick, but they'd all go to the wire..
Have to disagree with some of you.. I thought Calzaghe won the fight by 2 rounds..

K-DOGG
09-29-2009, 05:27 PM
Hopkins, I think, definitely deserves to be in the top 10; but the Middleweight division has been loaded with talent ever since Jack Dempsey..."The Nonpareil" became it's first champion. It's almost as if you have to rank a guy # 1.1, 1.2, 5.5, etc. Sucks really. You can develope a migrane just trying to put together a Top 10 list.....and I'll bet you the farm your own Top Ten would change once every couple of years if you were really honest with yourself.

At least I know mine has.

Obama
09-29-2009, 09:21 PM
Carlos Monzon, Harry Greb, Charley Burley, Holman Williams, Billy conn, Jake La motta, Marvin Hagler, Tommy Ryan, Stanley Ketchel, Sugar Ray Robinson, Rodrigo Valdes, Les Darcy, Michael nunn, Gerald Mccellan, James Toney and Joey Giardello all could of beat hopkins on there best day and hopkins best day! hopkins best wins were over a blown up lightwelter in oscar, and blown up over trained trinidad, for me hopkins has been a better lightheavy than middle, he just made more defences of his titles at middle. Also hopkins lost twice to taylor could you see jermain beating a carlos monzon or marvin hagler? i dont think so. I think hopkins as a middleweight is very over rated and he has looked better beating bigger, harder fighters at lighthheavy

No...

Conn was better at LHW than MW. He lost to his best MW opposition and only won rematches after weighing in way past the limit.

LaMotta, really? Come now... LaMotta only beat great fighters by outweighing them by 10+ lbs or breaking their arm.

The Valdes fight goes down like Hopkins vs Echols I. Good close fight, but B-Hop is clearly superior.

Les Darcy? You haven't seen enough footage of that guy to make any kind of head to head prediction.

And of course you say Giardello, I wonder why... Joey would have needed to beat Georgie Benton for me to believe he beats B-Hop.

Anyways h2h aside, gotta rate B-Hop over most every body there based on accomplishments at the weight.

You're also pretty delusional if you think a 41+ year old man was better than he was in his prime.

bklynboy
09-29-2009, 09:51 PM
Well i would of called a draw personally, but if pushed on the issue i would of leaned towards Hopkins, why? because at least he imposed his game plan on Calzaghe, albeit he did do it for long enough, that is why i cant give him the fight, that said he (Hopkins) was the more effective out of the two imo.

Imposed his game plan? I didn't see it that way. I saw Hopkins throwing and landing the far more effective shots. However in all sports, no matter how good your D is, you have to score more points than the other guy. Calzaghe was throwing and landing his awkward looking slap shots and scoring his pitty-pat points. I wanted to give more rounds to Hopkins but I couldn't. You can't stand against the ropes for 2 minutes a round, not throwing punches, and expect to win the round cause you landed a few effective shots. Meanwhile Calzaghe is throwing everything but the kitchen sink and landing few effective shots.

My question is: If Calzaghe's shots were the pitty-pat shots they looked like, why didn't Hopkins slip them and f*ck Calzaghe up?

I don't know? Is he better than he looks like on TV; did Hopkins have a bad night? Don't know.

Dynamite Kid
09-29-2009, 10:23 PM
Imposed his game plan? I didn't see it that way. I saw Hopkins throwing and landing the far more effective shots. However in all sports, no matter how good your D is, you have to score more points than the other guy. Calzaghe was throwing and landing his awkward looking slap shots and scoring his pitty-pat points. I wanted to give more rounds to Hopkins but I couldn't. You can't stand against the ropes for 2 minutes a round, not throwing punches, and expect to win the round cause you landed a few effective shots. Meanwhile Calzaghe is throwing everything but the kitchen sink and landing few effective shots.

My question is: If Calzaghe's shots were the pitty-pat shots they looked like, why didn't Hopkins slip them and f*ck Calzaghe up?

I don't know? Is he better than he looks like on TV; did Hopkins have a bad night? Don't know.




I terms of making Calzaghe fight his fight instead of vice versa, he did that.

Calzaghe was throwing and landing his awkward looking slap shots and scoring his pitty-pat points

Well i did not see him landing much apart from a straight left hand that he connected with, most people dont think he landed with much. Which ever way you look at it neither of them deserved to take the fight from the other man and be declared the winner.

bklynboy
09-29-2009, 11:37 PM
Which ever way you look at it neither of them deserved to take the fight from the other man and be declared the winner.

So true. I reluctantly gave the fight to Calzaghe. Still Hopkins was so effective against Pavlik that I have to wonder if Calzaghe is better than I think he is as Hopkins did close to nothing for 11 rounds.

Dynamite Kid
09-30-2009, 07:47 AM
So true. I reluctantly gave the fight to Calzaghe. Still Hopkins was so effective against Pavlik that I have to wonder if Calzaghe is better than I think he is as Hopkins did close to nothing for 11 rounds.

Thing is........Pavlik fought at a snails pace, Calzaghe might not have been landing much imo, but he was forcing Hopkins around the ring and making him expend energy with the thought of an attack, Pavlik's fight should of been pressing Hopkins near the ropes, not standing in centre where you knew he would get took to school because of inferior skills & speed disparity, and to make Hopkins life that much easier he was not throwing anything either, that said Hopkins was still clinging on for dear life at the end, how many times was he warned for excessive holding ? i felt sure the ref was going to take a point because of the amount of holding he was doing, and because of the amount warnings he had.

GJC
09-30-2009, 11:33 AM
Monzon
Hagler
Jones
Greb
Robinson
Ketchel

Would be my pick, but they'd all go to the wire..
Have to disagree with some of you.. I thought Calzaghe won the fight by 2 rounds..
I'd go with that list too.

bklynboy
09-30-2009, 12:30 PM
Thing is........Pavlik fought at a snails pace, Calzaghe might not have been landing much imo, but he was forcing Hopkins around the ring and making him expend energy with the thought of an attack, Pavlik's fight should of been pressing Hopkins near the ropes, not standing in centre where you knew he would get took to school because of inferior skills & speed disparity, and to make Hopkins life that much easier he was not throwing anything either, that said Hopkins was still clinging on for dear life at the end, how many times was he warned for excessive holding ? i felt sure the ref was going to take a point because of the amount of holding he was doing, and because of the amount warnings he had.

Hopkins outclassed Pavlik. Two points could have been taken away from Hopkins without changing the outcome. Pavlik has heart and a punch and I think he has talent. Now he needs a first class trainer.