View Full Version : Thoughts On This Top 20 Heavyweight List


Mr Boxing9
09-27-2009, 04:43 PM
1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.George Foreman
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Sonny Liston
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Lennox Lewis
10.Mike Tyson
11.Rocky Marciano
12.Joe Frazier
13.Riddick Bowe
14.Evander Holyfield
15.Sam Langford
16.Gene Tunney
17.James J. Corbett
18.Ezzard Charles
19.Jersey Joe Walcott
20.Max Schmeling
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html

Joey Giardello
09-27-2009, 05:14 PM
1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.George Foreman
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Sonny Liston
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Lennox Lewis
10.Mike Tyson
11.Rocky Marciano
12.Joe Frazier
13.Riddick Bowe
14.Evander Holyfield
15.Sam Langford
16.Gene Tunney
17.James J. Corbett
18.Ezzard Charles
19.Jersey Joe Walcott
20.Max Schmeling
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html

Riddick bowe is way to high!
Here is my list
1 Muhammed Ali
2 Rocky Marciano
3 Joe Louis
4 Jim Jefferies
5 Sam Langford
6 Jack Dempsey
7 George Foreman
8 Larry Holmes
9 Mike Tyson
10 Lennox Lewis
11 Gene Tunney
12 Joe Fraizer
13 Ezzard Charles
14 Evander Holeyfield
15 Bob Fizsimons
16 James j corbett
17 Sonny Liston
18 Harry Wills
19 Max Schmeling
20 Riddick Bowe

Here is may nearly list
Ken Norton
Sam Mcvey
Joe Jeanette
Jimmy Ellis
Michael Spinks
Jack Sharkey
Tim weathersppon
Louis Firpo

BigMacFoster
09-27-2009, 05:48 PM
So Firpo,Witherspoon and Michael Spinks nearly makes your list yet floyd Patterson is nowhere to be seen?

floyd Patterson has become one of the most underrated fighters in boxing history

Gettin Jiggy
09-27-2009, 06:18 PM
Bowe is to high

billionaire
09-27-2009, 08:21 PM
1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.George Foreman
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Sonny Liston
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Lennox Lewis
10.Mike Tyson
11.Rocky Marciano
12.Joe Frazier
13.Riddick Bowe
14.Evander Holyfield
15.Sam Langford
16.Gene Tunney
17.James J. Corbett
18.Ezzard Charles
19.Jersey Joe Walcott
20.Max Schmeling
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html

terrible list by a narrow minded old timer...jim jeffries was a bum would be annilated by every truly great.....holyfield is too low, lewis is not better than tyson, jack johnson is too high....

Obama
09-27-2009, 11:52 PM
I agree with the first 3, Harry Wills would be on my list next, and guys like Walcott, Charles, and Corbett wouldn't make my top 20 at all. They're top 25 and top 30 material.

GJC
09-28-2009, 09:51 AM
I agree with the first 3, Harry Wills would be on my list next, and guys like Walcott, Charles, and Corbett wouldn't make my top 20 at all. They're top 25 and top 30 material.
Wills was a great fighter but I think number 4 is way too high for him. I always think with Wills that he should have got his shot against Dempsey for sure but that it helped his legacy that he didn't.
I have little doubt that Dempsey would have beaten him, big heavyweights that wern't too quick were a bit of a speciality of Dempsey's.

sonnyboyx2
09-28-2009, 09:55 AM
1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.George Foreman
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Sonny Liston
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Lennox Lewis
10.Mike Tyson
11.Rocky Marciano
12.Joe Frazier
13.Riddick Bowe
14.Evander Holyfield
15.Sam Langford
16.Gene Tunney
17.James J. Corbett
18.Ezzard Charles
19.Jersey Joe Walcott
20.Max Schmeling
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html

These lists are pointless and only someones opinion..
if every fighter on this list was fighting on their `Best night` then surely Lennox Lewis would be knocked out by all except Langford, Tunney & Corbett and i would fancy Langford & Tunney to out-point Lewis...

Lewis vs Bowe - Bowe of Holyfield (1) fight
Lewis vs Frazier - Frazier of Fight of the Century or Manilla
Lewis vs Marciano - Rocky of the Charles 2 fight
Lewis vs Walcott - Walcott of the Louis fight
Lewis vs Tyson - Tyson from 86 -96
Lewis vs Charles - Charles of the Louis fight
Lewis vs Holyfield - Holyfield of the Foreman or Bowe 2 fight
Lewis vs Schmeling - Max of the Louis 1 fight

Lennox Lewis would be KOd in all the above fights..all the fighters rated above Lewis on the list would KO Lewis... Lets be honest here, what does Lennox Lewis bring to this list other than a victory over Tyson when Tyson was a decade and several prison sentences past his best days and a draw and a very disputed win over an aged Holyfield..That IMO does not entitle him to be the 9th greatest heavyweight who ever lived

1SILVA
09-28-2009, 10:30 AM
1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.George Foreman
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Sonny Liston
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Lennox Lewis
10.Mike Tyson
11.Rocky Marciano
12.Joe Frazier
13.Riddick Bowe
14.Evander Holyfield
15.Sam Langford
16.Gene Tunney
17.James J. Corbett
18.Ezzard Charles
19.Jersey Joe Walcott
20.Max Schmeling
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html

The top three in any order I agree. The rest is a matter of opinion

BigMacFoster
09-28-2009, 11:41 AM
These lists are pointless and only someones opinion..
if every fighter on this list was fighting on their `Best night` then surely Lennox Lewis would be knocked out by all except Langford, Tunney & Corbett and i would fancy Langford & Tunney to out-point Lewis...

Lewis vs Bowe - Bowe of Holyfield (1) fight
Lewis vs Frazier - Frazier of Fight of the Century or Manilla
Lewis vs Marciano - Rocky of the Charles 2 fight
Lewis vs Walcott - Walcott of the Louis fight
Lewis vs Tyson - Tyson from 86 -96
Lewis vs Charles - Charles of the Louis fight
Lewis vs Holyfield - Holyfield of the Foreman or Bowe 2 fight
Lewis vs Schmeling - Max of the Louis 1 fight

Lennox Lewis would be KOd in all the above fights..all the fighters rated above Lewis on the list would KO Lewis... Lets be honest here, what does Lennox Lewis bring to this list other than a victory over Tyson when Tyson was a decade and several prison sentences past his best days and a draw and a very disputed win over an aged Holyfield..That IMO does not entitle him to be the 9th greatest heavyweight who ever lived


Well if only baseless predictions on hypothetical dream matches actually amounted to anything.Look at some of the examples you've used for christ sake.


Frazier against Ali the first time? Where took a tremendous amount of punishment at the hands of a non puncher who had fought just two fights in three and a half years and then you list another fight where he lost.

Lennox Lewis held a greater right hand than Ali ever did,Lennox Lewis wouldn't have needed as many blows to defeat Frazier with the beard that he sported.

Ezzard Charles had far greater performances than he did against Joe Louis,Louis was done at this point in his career and had a pulse that resembled that of his past title defences.


Tyson was in prison between 1992 and 1995 so exactly does this version defeat Lennox Lewis?

Would his fellow prison inmates be judging this fight?

I find it ironic that you often dismiss Lennox Lewis's landslide victory over David Tua with the comment that "David Tua was the fattest man to ever challenge for a title" yet you go ahead and list the Holyfield of the foreman fight,were a 28 year old champion got staggered by a 42 year old 257 pound challenger who was fifteen years past his peak.

Who was the "fattest man to ever challenge for a title" again?

sonnyboyx2
09-28-2009, 12:12 PM
Well if only baseless predictions on hypothetical dream matches actually amounted to anything.Look at some of the examples you've used for christ sake.


Frazier against Ali the first time? Where took a tremendous amount of punishment at the hands of a non puncher who had fought just two fights in three and a half years and then you list another fight where he lost.

Lennox Lewis held a greater right hand than Ali ever did,Lennox Lewis wouldn't have needed as many blows to defeat Frazier with the beard that he sported.

Ezzard Charles had far greater performances than he did against Joe Louis,Louis was done at this point in his career and had a pulse that resembled that of his past title defences.


Tyson was in prison between 1992 and 1995 so exactly does this version defeat Lennox Lewis?

Would his fellow prison inmates be judging this fight?

I find it ironic that you often dismiss Lennox Lewis's landslide victory over David Tua with the comment that "David Tua was the fattest man to ever challenge for a title" yet you go ahead and list the Holyfield of the foreman fight,were a 28 year old champion got staggered by a 42 year old 257 pound challenger who was fifteen years past his peak.

Who was the "fattest man to ever challenge for a title" again?
Muhammad Ali a non-puncher... dont make me laugh, that must be the most ridiculous comment you have ever made and you make a huge ammount of them, Ali was the only man to KO Bonavena, he KOd Liston, was the only man to KO Foreman, he KOd Zora Folley and was as good a puncher as any champion..

Holyfield was at his `best the nights he fought Foreman & Bowe (2) regardless of how the fights went,

Tyson was not in his prime 92-95 he was in prison

Tyson from 86-95 would KO Lennox Lewis

The Charles vs Louis fight was Ezzard Charles at his `best` regardless of what condition Joe Louis was in..

Frazier against Ali (1) and also in Manilla was a tremendous fighter regardless of what you may think, he would have been far too much for any version of Lennox Lewis, You must be under the impression that Frazier would be just standing there letting Lennox Lewis hit him with right-hands all night.

who did Lewis ever KO with a big right-hand other than Hasim Rahman, Oleg Maskaev poleaxed Rahman TWICE knocking him over the top rope and out of the ring for 5 minutes, Lewis done nothing that had not already been done before, Hasim Rahman was a `Bum`
Did Lewis knock out Zelko Mavrovick, did he KO Levi Billups the same Billups who was poleaxed more than a dozen times by class C fighters, Lewis never came close to a KO against an old Holfield in 24rds yet John Ruiz floored Holyfield, Bert Cooper had him in dire straights and he was hurt against Foreman you claim.... yet you are trying to claim Lewis hit hard enough to KO Joe Frazier..

Yes David Tua was the "Fattest" man to ever fight for the title

LondonRingRules
09-28-2009, 06:37 PM
Ali was the only man to KO Bonavena, he KOd Liston, was the only man to KO Foreman, he KOd Zora Folley and was as good a puncher as any champion..


** Ali was a sharp attrition puncher at his best. In his comeback when he was sitting down more on his punches, well, Kenny Norton and Bob Foster both noted he couldn't bust a grape.

The Bonavena KO was as fake as the Liston KOs. Oscar was stopped by the 3 KD rule in effect with time running out in the 15th round. Ali never went to the neutral corner for those KDs and actually has to brush by the ref to get at Oscar. It didn't help that Oscar was as dumb as they get and just jumped up instead of buying time by extending the count out.

Knocking out Folley was no big deal. Dropping a well knackered Big George for near the full count after a showstopper combo was premium, but George arguably beat the count and Ali was in no condition to continue himself. That he couldn't put a dent in the most knocked out heavy champ in history, Leon of Neon Manor, pretty much defines the contradictory nature of dropping Big George which Jimmy Young also did.

Cox's list is decent, but he needs to lose Bowe completely and swap out Louis and Ali to pass my first screening.

Mr Boxing9
09-28-2009, 06:41 PM
** Ali was a sharp attrition puncher at his best. In his comeback when he was sitting down more on his punches, well, Kenny Norton and Bob Foster both noted he couldn't bust a grape.

The Bonavena KO was as fake as the Liston KOs. Oscar was stopped by the 3 KD rule in effect with time running out in the 15th round. Ali never went to the neutral corner for those KDs and actually has to brush by the ref to get at Oscar. It didn't help that Oscar was as dumb as they get and just jumped up instead of buying time by extending the count out.

Knocking out Folley was no big deal. Dropping a well knackered Big George for near the full count after a showstopper combo was premium, but George arguably beat the count and Ali was in no condition to continue himself. That he couldn't put a dent in the most knocked out heavy champ in history, Leon of Neon Manor, pretty much defines the contradictory nature of dropping Big George which Jimmy Young also did.

Cox's list is decent, but he needs to lose Bowe completely and swap out Louis and Ali to pass my first screening.

It was still impressive do even dropping the iron chinned Oscar and stopping him inside the distance, so i feel this impressive. Oscar was as tough as they come.

JAB5239
09-29-2009, 03:44 AM
terrible list by a narrow minded old timer...jim jeffries was a bum would be annilated by every truly great.....holyfield is too low, lewis is not better than tyson, jack johnson is too high....

Credible list that could be juggled based on opinions. Jeffries is a bit high but he was an all time great for sure. Can't knock what he did in his era.

sonnyboyx2
09-29-2009, 04:15 AM
** Ali was a sharp attrition puncher at his best. In his comeback when he was sitting down more on his punches, well, Kenny Norton and Bob Foster both noted he couldn't bust a grape.

The Bonavena KO was as fake as the Liston KOs. Oscar was stopped by the 3 KD rule in effect with time running out in the 15th round. Ali never went to the neutral corner for those KDs and actually has to brush by the ref to get at Oscar. It didn't help that Oscar was as dumb as they get and just jumped up instead of buying time by extending the count out.

Knocking out Folley was no big deal. Dropping a well knackered Big George for near the full count after a showstopper combo was premium, but George arguably beat the count and Ali was in no condition to continue himself. That he couldn't put a dent in the most knocked out heavy champ in history, Leon of Neon Manor, pretty much defines the contradictory nature of dropping Big George which Jimmy Young also did.

Cox's list is decent, but he needs to lose Bowe completely and swap out Louis and Ali to pass my first screening.
Bob Fosters remark is laughable, Ali put him down 8 times while playing with him... Norton was staggered several times by Ali.

Oscar was gone, the left-hook Ali hit him with was a `Classic`and he would not have beaten the count after the 3rd knock down.

Ali in no condition to continue after KOing Foreman ... you need to got watch that fight, Ali had barely broken sweat and could have gone another 15rds if need be...

Jimmy Young never floored Foreman... George was `staggered` by Young and tripped over Youngs foot and his glove brushed the canvas hence it was called a knock down.

knocking out Zora Folley was no big deal eh... you know nothing about this sport buddy if you think on those lines, Folley was one of the best boxers of the late 50s / 60s

mickey malone
09-29-2009, 10:59 AM
Johnson, Dempsey, Liston Too High

Lewis, Tyson, Frazier Too low

Top 2 are spot on (in my opinion)
Holmes & Foreman should be up there, & they are..
It's pretty good with the exception of Jack Johnson.. No way was he the 3rd best of all time.. Don't mean to upset, but I'd say, both Klit's would beat him quite easily, had they all been around at the same time..

The Iron Man
09-29-2009, 11:21 AM
1.Joe Louis
2.Muhammad Ali
3.Jack Johnson
4.George Foreman
5.Larry Holmes
6.Jack Dempsey
7.Sonny Liston
8.Jim Jeffries
9.Lennox Lewis
10.Mike Tyson
11.Rocky Marciano
12.Joe Frazier
13.Riddick Bowe
14.Evander Holyfield
15.Sam Langford
16.Gene Tunney
17.James J. Corbett
18.Ezzard Charles
19.Jersey Joe Walcott
20.Max Schmeling
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/20heavyweights.html


Personally i have Ali at 1, but i can accept Louis being there and arguments can be made for Johnsons high place.

Foreman however is waaay to high for my liking as is Bowe. Vander is way to low and Jeffries does not belong in the top 10. Apart from that i could accept the list, but not agree with it.

D-MiZe
09-29-2009, 11:40 AM
Bowe higher than Holyfield?

:thinking:

mickey malone
09-29-2009, 04:09 PM
Just as a second observation, I wouldn't give Jeffries a cat in hells chance against Holyfield, Tyson, Lewis or Bowe..

GJC
09-29-2009, 06:41 PM
It's pretty good with the exception of Jack Johnson.. No way was he the 3rd best of all time.. Don't mean to upset, but I'd say, both Klit's would beat him quite easily, had they all been around at the same time..

Johnson probably is a bit high but you have to take into account that in my mind he was 30 odd years of his time and quite a student of the game so who is to say he wouldn't have adjusted and been a force in whatever era he fought. As for the Klits beating him,maybe but they wouldn't be knocking him out in the 26th round I have my doubts whether they could last 15 stamina wise.

Obama
09-29-2009, 07:59 PM
Wills was a great fighter but I think number 4 is way too high for him. I always think with Wills that he should have got his shot against Dempsey for sure but that it helped his legacy that he didn't.
I have little doubt that Dempsey would have beaten him, big heavyweights that wern't too quick were a bit of a speciality of Dempsey's.

Wills had too many boxing skills for Dempsey. Prime Wills was never decisioned. Dempsey's only bet is to score a KO while behind on the cards. Had they fought back around when Dempsey won the title, Wills would have done what Tunney did to him, out box him easily.

Then there's the fact that Wills resume ****s on everyone's save Louis, Ali, and Johnson.... #4 is a good spot.

Mr Boxing9
09-29-2009, 08:10 PM
Wills had too many boxing skills for Dempsey. Prime Wills was never decisioned. Dempsey's only bet is to score a KO while behind on the cards. Had they fought back around when Dempsey won the title, Wills would have done what Tunney did to him, out box him easily.

Then there's the fact that Wills resume ****s on everyone's save Louis, Ali, and Johnson.... #4 is a good spot.

Willis never had no wear near as good as boxing skills or speed as Tunney. Willis was pretty slow and was known more for his strength and punching power than his boxing skills and speed.

Obama
09-29-2009, 08:27 PM
Willis never had no wear near as good as boxing skills or speed as Tunney. Willis was pretty slow and was known more for his strength and punching power than his boxing skills and speed.

You're confusing him with McVea. Willis boxing skills were top notch.

Mr Boxing9
09-29-2009, 08:41 PM
You're confusing him with McVea. Willis boxing skills were top notch.

No am not, although Willis had skills, he was more known for his strength and big punch, and he size, he was 6''3. Willis vs Dempsey would be nothing like Tunney vs Dempsey, and Tunney and Willis fight nothing alike.

FACT

Obama
09-30-2009, 02:08 AM
No am not, although Willis had skills, he was more known for his strength and big punch, and he size, he was 6''3. Willis vs Dempsey would be nothing like Tunney vs Dempsey, and Tunney and Willis fight nothing alike.

FACT

I said he'd out box him like Tunney did, I didn't say he'd do it the same way. Wills was not slow and was a very clever fighter. Dempsey would be out of his element. What crafty fighter did Dempsey ever beat who was bigger than him? His record against short, fat, Willie Meehan doesn't allow me to give him any benefits of the doubt.

RightCross94
09-30-2009, 03:32 AM
Holyfield is way too low, Bowe should not be above him, he won the trilogy but his accomplishments arent as deep

Obama
09-30-2009, 03:53 AM
Holyfield is way too low, Bowe should not be above him, he won the trilogy but his accomplishments arent as deep

1000% Correct.

JAB5239
09-30-2009, 05:57 AM
I said he'd out box him like Tunney did, I didn't say he'd do it the same way. Wills was not slow and was a very clever fighter. Dempsey would be out of his element. What crafty fighter did Dempsey ever beat who was bigger than him? His record against short, fat, Willie Meehan doesn't allow me to give him any benefits of the doubt.


Those were 4 round fights early in Dempsey's career while Meehan was already a veteran of over 100 fights. Should we also question Sam Langford who also lost a 4 rounder to Meehan?

Obama
09-30-2009, 07:53 AM
[/B]

Those were 4 round fights early in Dempsey's career while Meehan was already a veteran of over 100 fights. Should we also question Sam Langford who also lost a 4 rounder to Meehan?

The second Meehan loss was not remotely early in Dempsey's career. And Dempsey was supposed to be at his best in the early rounds. Sam Langford was past his prime when Willie got to him. Prime Langford blasts his ass. Besides they only fought once. Dempsey fought the SOB 5 times.

GJC
09-30-2009, 08:43 AM
Wills was not slow and was a very clever fighter.

Obama, Wills was a great fighter not doubting that but he wasn't quick.
Like I said personally I'd bet the house on Dempsey really fancy him in this match up.

sonnyboyx2
09-30-2009, 08:56 AM
Obama, Wills was a great fighter not doubting that but he wasn't quick.
Like I said personally I'd bet the house on Dempsey really fancy him in this match up.

Dempsey was a phenominal fighting machine who had devastating punching-power, he hit Jesse Willard so hard he broke his jaw in 7 places and knocked out his front teeth, Dempsey would be far too much for Wills due to his speed, power and ring smarts

mickey malone
09-30-2009, 09:32 AM
Johnson probably is a bit high but you have to take into account that in my mind he was 30 odd years of his time and quite a student of the game so who is to say he wouldn't have adjusted and been a force in whatever era he fought. As for the Klits beating him,maybe but they wouldn't be knocking him out in the 26th round I have my doubts whether they could last 15 stamina wise.
Agreed on the stamina issue.... Vitally looked like he'd had Ronnie Kray taken of his back, when Arreola's corner retired him..

Felt terribly sorry for Chris, who cried like a baby.. I know & he knew that Vitally was gassed, & beatable.. Although, lacking in some departments, Arreola has the heart of a lion, & a very solid chin.. Much in the mould of a young Chuvalo..
I sincerely hope that he replaces his corner with immediate effect..

With regard to Johnson, I rate him as just outside of the top 10, & the Klit's (love em or hate em) are dominating the division, & in years to come will probably be replacing names like Johnson &/or Dempsey, Marciano, Tunney, Langford etc on a lot of lists (experts included)...

Although, I'd still say the bros would be to big for Jack, Vitally did get upset by Chris Byrd, & Johnson was a lot more crafty, so I can see where your coming from..

Ziggy Stardust
09-30-2009, 01:27 PM
Agreed on the stamina issue.... Vitally looked like he'd had Ronnie Kray taken of his back, when Arreola's corner retired him..

Felt terribly sorry for Chris, who cried like a baby.. I know & he knew that Vitally was gassed, & beatable.. Although, lacking in some departments, Arreola has the heart of a lion, & a very solid chin.. Much in the mould of a young Chuvalo..
I sincerely hope that he replaces his corner with immediate effect..

With regard to Johnson, I rate him as just outside of the top 10, & the Klit's (love em or hate em) are dominating the division, & in years to come will probably be replacing names like Johnson &/or Dempsey, Marciano, Tunney, Langford etc on a lot of lists (experts included)...

Although, I'd still say the bros would be to big for Jack, Vitally did get upset by Chris Byrd, & Johnson was a lot more crafty, so I can see where your coming from..

Still, at least Vitaly lets his hands go which is a lot more than you can say for his little sister Wlad. It's one of the things that makes Vitaly a hell of a lot more dangerous against an opponent that he doesn't have a big reach advantage over than Wlad is.

Poet

JAB5239
10-01-2009, 12:16 AM
The second Meehan loss was not remotely early in Dempsey's career. And Dempsey was supposed to be at his best in the early rounds. Sam Langford was past his prime when Willie got to him. Prime Langford blasts his ass. Besides they only fought once. Dempsey fought the SOB 5 times.

Langford was still beating top ranked heavyweights so I see no excuses. Truth is styles make fights and its hard to judge fighters with all time great careers based on 4 round fights. So what if Dempsey was supposed to be at his best early. Every fight and every fighter is different. We all know before Dempsey got famous that many times he'd be fighting just so he could eat. Could that have been the case in some of these fights? Seems a possibility. We also know in his last fight against Meehan he was in his sixth fight in just over two months. Maybe Willie just had his number in 4 round fights. None of it changes everything else he did though and I just find it difficult to judge a fighter based on 4 round fights.

Obama
10-01-2009, 01:49 AM
Langford was still beating top ranked heavyweights so I see no excuses. Truth is styles make fights and its hard to judge fighters with all time great careers based on 4 round fights. So what if Dempsey was supposed to be at his best early. Every fight and every fighter is different. We all know before Dempsey got famous that many times he'd be fighting just so he could eat. Could that have been the case in some of these fights? Seems a possibility. We also know in his last fight against Meehan he was in his sixth fight in just over two months. Maybe Willie just had his number in 4 round fights. None of it changes everything else he did though and I just find it difficult to judge a fighter based on 4 round fights.

I found that particularly funny since the rest of your post is nothing but making excuses for Dempsey. :boxing:

mickey malone
10-01-2009, 08:39 AM
Still, at least Vitaly lets his hands go which is a lot more than you can say for his little sister Wlad. It's one of the things that makes Vitaly a hell of a lot more dangerous against an opponent that he doesn't have a big reach advantage over than Wlad is.

Poet
Sure!... Vitaly's never in a dull fight.. I've always liked him, ever since he did a demolition job on Herbie Hyde.. Not that I've got anything against Hyde, I just loved the way Vitaly fought, & has done since (if we forget about the rotator cuff incident).. The only traversty, is that the wrong brother had a back injury for 3 years..

JAB5239
10-01-2009, 02:37 PM
I found that particularly funny since the rest of your post is nothing but making excuses for Dempsey. :boxing:

Yeah well what are you going to do? I could find reasons both fighters lost to Meehan and defend them forever. I still don't believe its relevant to judge a fighters entire career based on 4 round fights earlier in his career and neither do most boxing historians that I am aware of.

Obama
10-01-2009, 03:10 PM
Yeah well what are you going to do? I could find reasons both fighters lost to Meehan and defend them forever. I still don't believe its relevant to judge a fighters entire career based on 4 round fights earlier in his career and neither do most boxing historians that I am aware of.

They weren't all early in his career, and he met the man 5 times. As there's no other better indication that he could beat a crafty fighter of his own size or greater, it's highly relevant to the topic at hand. Don't lose sight of the argument.

4 round fights then are not 4 round fights now. You could make any elite fighter today fight a 4 rounder and it would be at a very high level. The length of a fight merely makes the fighters adjust the pace it goes at. If it's shorter go harder. If it's longer ease up. Since fights went over 50 rounds at one point, lets just write off the 12 round championship bouts of today just because they are too short compared to the epic battles back then. Or lets not.

JAB5239
10-01-2009, 03:51 PM
They weren't all early in his career, and he met the man 5 times. As there's no other better indication that he could beat a crafty fighter of his own size or greater, it's highly relevant to the topic at hand. Don't lose sight of the argument.

4 round fights then are not 4 round fights now. You could make any elite fighter today fight a 4 rounder and it would be at a very high level. The length of a fight merely makes the fighters adjust the pace it goes at. If it's shorter go harder. If it's longer ease up. Since fights went over 50 rounds at one point, lets just write off the 12 round championship bouts of today just because they are too short compared to the epic battles back then. Or lets not.

4 rounds does not give a fighter time to adjust to a style he isn't comfortable against, especially against a man with over 100 fights. If it did, why not just schedule championship fights for the 4 rounds than? If it did give a fighter time and was a proper indication, Zab would have beaten Floyd. That is just one example out of thousands, I am sure.

Obama
10-01-2009, 04:16 PM
4 rounds does not give a fighter time to adjust to a style he isn't comfortable against, especially against a man with over 100 fights. If it did, why not just schedule championship fights for the 4 rounds than? If it did give a fighter time and was a proper indication, Zab would have beaten Floyd. That is just one example out of thousands, I am sure.

You can't necessarily compare the first 4 rounds of a 12 round fight to what they would be if the fight was scheduled for only 4 rounds.

And once again you're treating every fight Dempsey had with Meehan as an inexperienced version of Dempsey. The best win Dempsey ever had was against Fred Fulton (would be Jack Sharkey if Dempsey didn't get his ass beat from beginning to end then cheat to win). He KOed Fulton in 1 round. His last loss to Meehan came AFTER he defeated Fulton. I really don't want to hear this inexperience crap anymore.

JAB5239
10-01-2009, 04:28 PM
You can't necessarily compare the first 4 rounds of a 12 round fight to what they would be if the fight was scheduled for only 4 rounds.

If a fighter doesn't have time to figure out his opponent, there is no difference.

And once again you're treating every fight Dempsey had with Meehan as an inexperienced version of Dempsey. The best win Dempsey ever had was against Fred Fulton (would be Jack Sharkey if Dempsey didn't get his ass beat from beginning to end then cheat to win). He KOed Fulton in 1 round. His last loss to Meehan came AFTER he defeated Fulton. I really don't want to hear this inexperience crap anymore.

In comparison to Meehan, Dempsey was inexperienced, especially considering he had no amateur career. If he went on to beat better fighters than Meehan, it is only reasonable to make the assumption that he could most likely beat Meehan over a longer fight. Not a fact, but reasonable. Also, none of this detracts from everything else he did anyway, and that was my whole point of challenging your post, you dismissing him because of some 4 round fights to Meehan.

Obama
10-03-2009, 02:45 AM
In comparison to Meehan, Dempsey was inexperienced, especially considering he had no amateur career. If he went on to beat better fighters than Meehan, it is only reasonable to make the assumption that he could most likely beat Meehan over a longer fight. Not a fact, but reasonable. Also, none of this detracts from everything else he did anyway, and that was my whole point of challenging your post, you dismissing him because of some 4 round fights to Meehan.

And Rocky Marciano was inexperienced compared to Joe Louis. Big deal. The fact is both Marciano and Dempsey had enough experience to get the job done.

Dempsey had enough experience knocking world class opponents out in 4 rounds. He didn't have enough time to adjust? Not the case. He wins a longer fight for a different reason. He wins a longer fight because Meehan would gas.

But as I said before, Dempsey was a specialist in early KOs. He had 5 chances against Meehan, failed each time. Why did he fail? Because Meehan was crafty and not some Middleweight who could be rolled over. Let me make 1 "leap of faith" and say a properly conditioned crafty fighter on Meehan's level could befuddle Dempsey for 10 rounds instead of 4.

GameBullDawg
10-03-2009, 02:48 AM
Rocky needs to be in the top three. He has the best record of any heavyweight, retired undefeated in 49 fights with 43 ko's and fought everyone !

Obama
10-03-2009, 02:52 AM
Rocky needs to be in the top three. He has the best record of any heavyweight, retired undefeated in 49 fights with 43 ko's and fought everyone !

Most of those guys he fought were bums. He only fought 8.5 years as I recall, in an era of past it great Heavyweights. By the time the young elite Heavyweights came around (Liston, Patterson, Folley, Machen) he already retired. To be rated a top 3 Heavyweight fairly he would have had to have at least beaten Liston and Patterson.

mickey malone
10-03-2009, 03:51 AM
Most of those guys he fought were bums. He only fought 8.5 years as I recall, in an era of past it great Heavyweights. By the time the young elite Heavyweights came around (Liston, Patterson, Folley, Machen) he already retired. To be rated a top 3 Heavyweight fairly he would have had to have at least beaten Liston and Patterson.
Had Ali, Foreman, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield, Vitaly, Wlad, Tyson and possibly Bowe, been around, I'd say he'd be somethig like 40-8-1.. Still respectable, but not immortal..

I'd give him a good chance against Frazier or Liston, & I'd say he'd win close fights against Tunney, Dempsey & Johnson..

It's not a size thing.. I'd also pick Marciano over Cooney, Bugner, Carnera, Willard, Tyrell, Shavers, Lyle, Douglas, Bruno, Williams & many more..

From his own era, I see only a PRIME Joe Louis, as capable of beating him...

CCobra
10-03-2009, 04:27 AM
Had Ali, Foreman, Lewis, Holmes, Holyfield, Vitaly, Wlad, Tyson and possibly Bowe, been around, I'd say he'd be somethig like 40-8-1.. Still respectable, but not immortal..

I'd give him a good chance against Frazier or Liston, & I'd say he'd win close fights against Tunney, Dempsey & Johnson..

It's not a size thing.. I'd also pick Marciano over Cooney, Bugner, Carnera, Willard, Tyrell, Shavers, Lyle, Douglas, Bruno, Williams & many more..

From his own era, I see only a PRIME Joe Louis, as capable of beating him...

Marciano gets beaten by a prime Ezzard Charles. Charles came close to beating Rocky twice and the Heavyweight Charles that fought Marciano was past his prime and became a completely shot fighter post-Marciano I & II. Charles with more left in the tank would beat Rocky to a decision.

terrible list by a narrow minded old timer...jim jeffries was a bum would be annilated by every truly great.....holyfield is too low, lewis is not better than tyson, jack johnson is too high....

You rank a fighter based on what he accomplished in his own era. Jim Jeffries is an ATG Heavyweight fighter, top 10 material in some peoples eyes. I personally have him sitting between 15-20 and it may have been higher had he not shamefully retired so soon and took on the likes of Jack Johnson & Sam Langford when he were still a capable fighter.

GJC
10-03-2009, 06:32 PM
Most of those guys he fought were bums. He only fought 8.5 years as I recall, in an era of past it great Heavyweights. By the time the young elite Heavyweights came around (Liston, Patterson, Folley, Machen) he already retired. To be rated a top 3 Heavyweight fairly he would have had to have at least beaten Liston and Patterson.
Liston I think would be a bad match up for Marciano. Though a chief part of Liston's armoury was that fighters were beaten before they got in the ring, Marciano wouldn't have been frightened. I would fancy him over Patterson and Johansson though so had Marciano had been say 25 not 29 when he won the title I could see him reigning until a 1959 Liston met him. That would push him up the rankings considerably.
All very theoretical of course.

GJC
10-03-2009, 06:38 PM
Marciano gets beaten by a prime Ezzard Charles. Charles came close to beating Rocky twice and the Heavyweight Charles that fought Marciano was past his prime and became a completely shot fighter post-Marciano I & II.

He was shot because Marciano pretty much ruined him to be honest.

Obama
10-03-2009, 10:57 PM
The early stages of Lou Gehrig's Disease ruined Charles.

CCobra
10-04-2009, 03:18 AM
He was shot because Marciano pretty much ruined him to be honest.

The fight's took a lot out of him, but it was Lou Gehrig's disease that really ruined Charles. Not much is known on Charles really, most of what I know about his earlier life is what I attribute to an article in the Ring Magazine not long after he defeated the great Joe Louis.

The early stages of Lou Gehrig's Disease ruined Charles.

That's correct.