View Full Version : Best welterweight of all-time


Stoppage
09-15-2009, 02:44 PM
Who, in your opinion, is the best welterweight of all-time? It can include fighters from both past and present.

In my opinion it's Sugar Ray Leonard.

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 02:46 PM
Who, in your opinion, is the best welterweight of all-time? It can include fighters from both past and present.

When I say welterweight I mean a fighter whose career was mostly based in the welterweight division. Meaning that Sugar Ray Robinson wouldn't count since he was mostly a middleweight.

In my opinion it's Sugar Ray Leonard.

And yet they consider SRR to be the greatest welter ever!:rolleyes: I have to go with Oscar.

mike ruler
09-15-2009, 02:53 PM
And yet they consider SRR to be the greatest welter ever!:rolleyes: I have to go with Oscar.

WHO????? Where you put Shane?

Stoppage
09-15-2009, 02:55 PM
I decided to add Sugar Ray Robinson to the list since he was champion for five years at welterweight.

By the way, poll is up.

sonnyboyx2
09-15-2009, 02:56 PM
Sugar Ray Robinson was voted the greatest welterweight of all time

mike ruler
09-15-2009, 02:57 PM
I decided do add Sugar Ray Robinson to the list since he was champion for five years at welterweight.

By the way, poll is up.

Since you added SRR I'm going to go with him. With Hearns second.

TheGreatA
09-15-2009, 03:13 PM
Robinson was a welterweight for almost a decade from age 20 to 29. He cleaned out the division of its top contenders and was recognized as the uncrowned welterweight champion until being given his deserved chance at the title after spending 5 years as the number 1 challenger.

one-Punch
09-15-2009, 03:16 PM
I am going to have to go with Sugar Ray Robinson. And if you are just picking him because he was the champ for so long, go watch some of his videos (Not the greatest quality), it's awesome to watch how good this guy was.

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 03:22 PM
WHO????? Where you put Shane?

Shane who?:lol1: Just kidding. He's def in top ten. But not sure if he's top 5.

mrboxer
09-15-2009, 03:25 PM
by far wilfredo benitez he was so young as a champ he did not take the sport serious enough,if he trained properly with his abilities he would of probebly went undefeated:boxing:

Stoppage
09-15-2009, 03:27 PM
I am going to have to go with Sugar Ray Robinson. And if you are just picking him because he was the champ for so long, go watch some of his videos (Not the greatest quality), it's awesome to watch how good this guy was.

Believe me, I know this guy was great. I was just hesitant on putting him because he was a five time middleweight champion and I wasn't sure if he should belong on this welterweight list.

nachorjj
09-15-2009, 03:27 PM
I go with srl

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 03:41 PM
Robinson lost to La Motta. Why was he so great? He also lost to Joey Maxim. These guys don't exactly have perfect records. And this was when? 50 years ago? I think is nonsense when people say THIS MAN was the greatest boxer ever. There is no such thing. And its so American!:nonono: SRR was def one of the best in history, but not THE best. Just because he's got more victories on his resume than other greats doesn't mean he was better than them.

Probably the wisest thing Mike Tyson ever said was "Nobody is the greatest fighter in the world". How true.

BigMacFoster
09-15-2009, 04:12 PM
Who do you think? (The real)Sugar Ray Leonard obviously.

And where on earth is Donald Curry on that list? Pipino Cuevas?

Shane who?:lol1: Just kidding. He's def in top ten. But not sure if he's top 5.


Then where do you place Vernon Forrest Forrest? The man who beat the living **** out of Mosley the first time and had Mosley to terrified to even open up during their rematch.

Mosley has a win over De La Hoya and Margarito and nothing else at welterweight,A very overrated fighter who for so long has gotten away with being so one dimensional and clueless in the ring.

Before Margarito,All Mosley did was look like **** and look for the one punch knockout every single time he fought,He would literally wait for his opponent to throw a jab just so he could take it.


It's like those weird f*cks who gain sexual pleasure from physical punishment,Mosley got his pleasure from eating jabs all night long.



Believe me, I know this guy was great. I was just hesitant on putting him because he was a five time middleweight champion and I wasn't sure if he should belong on this welterweight list.


It is possible to be successful at several different weight classes,No fighter(unless their a heavyweight) is limited to one weight class

them_apples
09-15-2009, 04:29 PM
Accomplishments wise I'm going with SRR, on a who beats the most out of the bunch basis....I might edge it to Leonard.

TheGreatA
09-15-2009, 04:35 PM
Robinson lost to La Motta. Why was he so great? He also lost to Joey Maxim. These guys don't exactly have perfect records. And this was when? 50 years ago? I think is nonsense when people say THIS MAN was the greatest boxer ever. There is no such thing. And its so American!:nonono: SRR was def one of the best in history, but not THE best. Just because he's got more victories on his resume than other greats doesn't mean he was better than them.

Probably the wisest thing Mike Tyson ever said was "Nobody is the greatest fighter in the world". How true.

LaMotta and Maxim weren't welterweights though. In fact both of them outweighed Robinson by more than 15 pounds at the time Ray fought them.

Stoppage
09-15-2009, 04:48 PM
Robinson lost to La Motta. Why was he so great? He also lost to Joey Maxim. These guys don't exactly have perfect records. And this was when? 50 years ago? I think is nonsense when people say THIS MAN was the greatest boxer ever. There is no such thing. And its so American!:nonono: SRR was def one of the best in history, but not THE best. Just because he's got more victories on his resume than other greats doesn't mean he was better than them.

Probably the wisest thing Mike Tyson ever said was "Nobody is the greatest fighter in the world". How true.

You have to do research before you make these kind of replies.

Robinson beat LaMotta four out of the five times they fought. LaMotta was a middleweight and Robinson was a welterweight, when Lamotta beat Robinson. That's two weight classes apart.

As for the Joey Maxim fight, he was winning the fight until he fainted due to heat. It was so hot in the arena that even the referee fainted and they had to bring a new one in.

You gotta remember that they fought a lot more often than fighters today. An average champion nowadays fights maybe two or a three times a year. These guys sometimes fought once or twice a month.

And where on earth is Donald Curry on that list? Pipino Cuevas?

There's a maximum of 10 poll options. If you think there's a better welterweight that's not named then vote "other" and reply saying who.

BigMacFoster
09-15-2009, 04:59 PM
I don't think Donald Curry is the greatest Welterweight ever,But he has a much stronger argument than the likes of Oscar De La Hoya,Pernell Whitaker and certainly Shane Mosley has.


I don't think Donald Curry is the greatest Welterweight ever,But he has a much stronger argument than the likes of Oscar De La Hoya,Pernell Whitaker and certainly Shane Mosley has.



As for the Joey Maxim fight, he was winning the fight until he fainted due to heat. It was so hot in the arena that even the referee fainted and they had to bring a new one in.


Not that Maxim was a Welterweight anyway.Howvever Robinson got beat that day,Doesn't matter if he was winning,He failed to come out for the 14th round,Thus ending on a TKO victory for Joey Maxim.


Maxim also fought in that heat




curry and cuevas are not even in my top 100:boxing:


I don't think you can even list 100 welterweights

mrboxer
09-15-2009, 05:03 PM
curry and cuevas are not even in my top 100:boxing:

GJC
09-15-2009, 05:05 PM
curry and cuevas are not even in my top 100:boxing:
To be honest that is probably a point in their favour.
When are you going to honur us with this top 100 I know who isn't on it but ~I'm very curious as to who is?

JAB5239
09-15-2009, 05:06 PM
Shane who?:lol1: Just kidding. He's def in top ten. But not sure if he's top 5.

Shane was a good fighter but he doesn't make the all time top 10 of any division he's fought in let alone the top 5.

GJC
09-15-2009, 05:09 PM
Just noticed, Henry Armstrong is a bit of an omission from the poll.
He would be in mosts top 5 I would hope?

GJC
09-15-2009, 05:09 PM
Robinson for me on the question BTW

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 05:14 PM
Ike Quartey is also a top 10 Imo. But Oscar has claim to being nr.1 because he beat all the best wws of his time. One of those wins he wasn't credited for, but we all know the truth. Lets see at the names he beat:

Pernell Whitaker-might have not been at his very prime, but was still only 33 when Oscar beat him. And despite all the claims of "controversial decision", there really is nothing controversial about it and the judges all scored the fight clearly in Oscar's favor.
Ike Quartey-some are still *****ing about how Quartey won this fight, but he got knocked down twice and was hit with god knows how many clean punches during the last round assault by Oscar.
Felix Trinidad-he outboxed the guy who was then considered unbeatable and still is considered one of the greatest Puertorican fighters ever, for 9 rounds without problems. That shoulda been all the world needed to know how good he really is.
Julio Cesar Chavez-beat the so-called greatest Mexican fighter twice, both times by tko. First time it was at 140.
Hector Camacho-Another HOF material, who was 63-3-1 when he faced Oscar and constantly on p4p top 10 lists. Oscar beat him by wide UD and scored a knockdown as well.
Oba Carr-He gave Quartey his maybe toughest fight as reigning champ and also knocked down Trinidad and gave him a good fight before getting stopped. Also beat Frankie Randall and Yori Boy Campas. Oscar stopped him in the 11th round.

Stoppage
09-15-2009, 05:24 PM
Just noticed, Henry Armstrong is a bit of an omission from the poll.
He would be in mosts top 5 I would hope?

Although Henry Armstrong was a welterweight champion, he defended his title at around 135 lbs most of the time which is the lightweight limit. I think he would be better known as a lightweight or featherweight rather than a welterweight. But you could easily say he was a great welterweight, if you wanted.

And yes. I have him ranked as either the 2nd or 3rd greatest fighter of all-time. He was just that good.

BigMacFoster
09-15-2009, 05:29 PM
Ike Quartey is also a top 10 Imo. But Oscar has claim to being nr.1 because he beat all the best wws of his time. One of those wins he wasn't credited for, but we all know the truth. Lets see at the names he beat:

Pernell Whitaker-might have not been at his very prime, but was still only 33 when Oscar beat him. And despite all the claims of "controversial decision", there really is nothing controversial about it and the judges all scored the fight clearly in Oscar's favor.
Ike Quartey-some are still *****ing about how Quartey won this fight, but he got knocked down twice and was hit with god knows how many clean punches during the last round assault by Oscar.
Felix Trinidad-he outboxed the guy who was then considered unbeatable and still is considered one of the greatest Puertorican fighters ever, for 9 rounds without problems. That shoulda been all the world needed to know how good he really is.
Julio Cesar Chavez-beat the so-called greatest Mexican fighter twice, both times by tko. First time it was at 140.
Hector Camacho-Another HOF material, who was 63-3-1 when he faced Oscar and constantly on p4p top 10 lists. Oscar beat him by wide UD and scored a knockdown as well.
Oba Carr-He gave Quartey his maybe toughest fight as reigning champ and also knocked down Trinidad and gave him a good fight before getting stopped. Also beat Frankie Randall and Yori Boy Campas. Oscar stopped him in the 11th round.


Ignore the troll,He doesn't know any better as he doesn't watch boxing.


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304588

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 05:33 PM
Ignore the troll,He doesn't know any better as he doesn't watch boxing.


http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=304588

Yeah, ignore the truth, its easier that way.

Stoppage
09-15-2009, 05:37 PM
Pernell Whitaker-might have not been at his very prime, but was still only 33 when Oscar beat him. And despite all the claims of "controversial decision", there really is nothing controversial about it and the judges all scored the fight clearly in Oscar's favor.

Forget about numbers when you're talking about someone's prime. Whitaker was way past it. I'm not sure about this but he might have been doing drugs. Because in his next fight he was caught with cocaine in his system.

During the match Whitaker made Oscar look like a fool at times. A lot even felt that Whitaker won the fight.

Prime against prime I would choose Whitaker.

oc9979
09-15-2009, 05:46 PM
Ike Quartey is also a top 10 Imo. But Oscar has claim to being nr.1 because he beat all the best wws of his time. One of those wins he wasn't credited for, but we all know the truth. Lets see at the names he beat:

Pernell Whitaker-might have not been at his very prime, but was still only 33 when Oscar beat him. And despite all the claims of "controversial decision", there really is nothing controversial about it and the judges all scored the fight clearly in Oscar's favor.
Ike Quartey-some are still *****ing about how Quartey won this fight, but he got knocked down twice and was hit with god knows how many clean punches during the last round assault by Oscar.
Felix Trinidad-he outboxed the guy who was then considered unbeatable and still is considered one of the greatest Puertorican fighters ever, for 9 rounds without problems. That shoulda been all the world needed to know how good he really is.
Julio Cesar Chavez-beat the so-called greatest Mexican fighter twice, both times by tko. First time it was at 140.
Hector Camacho-Another HOF material, who was 63-3-1 when he faced Oscar and constantly on p4p top 10 lists. Oscar beat him by wide UD and scored a knockdown as well.
Oba Carr-He gave Quartey his maybe toughest fight as reigning champ and also knocked down Trinidad and gave him a good fight before getting stopped. Also beat Frankie Randall and Yori Boy Campas. Oscar stopped him in the 11th round.

Same thing could be said about trinidad
Oscar De La Hoya he was underfeated
Pernall Whitaker was 40-2
Oba Carr was 32-0 when trinidad beat him
Yori Boy Campas was 56-0 when trinidad defeated him
And last but not least Hector Camacho was 4322
All those opponent except Pernall Whitaker were beaten Trinidad beat them before Oscar

JAB5239
09-15-2009, 05:57 PM
Ike Quartey is also a top 10 Imo. But Oscar has claim to being nr.1 because he beat all the best wws of his time. One of those wins he wasn't credited for, but we all know the truth. Lets see at the names he beat:

If you don't know **** about past fighters and their competition how can you come up with having Oscar as the best?

Pernell Whitaker-might have not been at his very prime, but was still only 33 when Oscar beat him. And despite all the claims of "controversial decision", there really is nothing controversial about it and the judges all scored the fight clearly in Oscar's favor.

Whitaker wasn't at his best anymore and it was a razor close fight, but Oscar edged it and gets credit here.

Ike Quartey-some are still *****ing about how Quartey won this fight, but he got knocked down twice and was hit with god knows how many clean punches during the last round assault by Oscar.

Good win for Oscar in a close fight. Many fail to acknowledge that Oscar has Ike sitting on the shelf for almost a year and a half not allowing him to fight if he wanted to see this pay day. This fight could have gone the other way had Quartey been an active fighter.

Felix Trinidad-he outboxed the guy who was then considered unbeatable and still is considered one of the greatest Puertorican fighters ever, for 9 rounds without problems. That shoulda been all the world needed to know how good he really is.

No argument here. I though Oscar took Tito to school.

Julio Cesar Chavez-beat the so-called greatest Mexican fighter twice, both times by tko. First time it was at 140.

Neither of these fights are impressive historically. JCC was the smaller man and well past his best.

Hector Camacho-Another HOF material, who was 63-3-1 when he faced Oscar and constantly on p4p top 10 lists. Oscar beat him by wide UD and scored a knockdown as well.

Bull****. Who exactly was Camacho beating before the Oscar fight to get into the top 10 P4P? Hector, while still talented and a name was pretty much a journeyman at this point. He hadn't beat a top contender in 6 years and wouldn't do so for the rest of his career.

Oba Carr-He gave Quartey his maybe toughest fight as reigning champ and also knocked down Trinidad and gave him a good fight before getting stopped. Also beat Frankie Randall and Yori Boy Campas. Oscar stopped him in the 11th round.

Oba could never get over the hill and win a title, but this was a good win over a solid contender.

Here is a list of top welters in no particular order. All rank higher than Oscar or Tito.

Robinson
Leonard
Hearns
Gavilan
Armstrong
Napoles
Basilio
Griffith
Ted "kid" Lewis

Oscar or Tito might crack the top ten, but Im betting more fighters could be argued as having better careers at this weight.

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 06:01 PM
Oba could never get over the hill and win a title, but this was a good win over a solid contender.

Here is a list of top welters in no particular order. All rank higher than Oscar or Tito.

Robinson
Leonard
Hearns
Gavilan
Armstrong
Napoles
Basilio
Griffith
Ted "kid" Lewis

Oscar or Tito might crack the top ten, but Im betting more fighters could be argued as having better careers at this weight.

Careful with the words now. I never said I "don't know ****" about them. It just is hard to compare the old fighters with newer ones, because the level of competition and atheticism overall was a bit higher in the 90's than 50's for instance. Still not trying to take anything away from Robinson, Armstrong and those guys. Chill out.

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 06:11 PM
And one thing: why does everyone who thinks DLH is great gets maligned and ridiculed?!? Why do so many dislike Oscar?? I still don't get it and probably never will.

Stoppage
09-15-2009, 06:18 PM
And one thing: why does everyone who thinks DLH is great gets maligned and ridiculed?!? Why do so many dislike Oscar?? I still don't get it and probably never will.

He is great but in my mind not the best. He deserved the Trinidad win for sure, though. That was his biggest fight and he was clearly robbed.

JAB5239
09-15-2009, 06:22 PM
Careful with the words now. I never said I "don't know ****" about them. It just is hard to compare the old fighters with newer ones, because the level of competition and atheticism overall was a bit higher in the 90's than 50's for instance. Still not trying to take anything away from Robinson, Armstrong and those guys. Chill out.

Pardon my choice of words in my last post.

How do you come to the conclusion that competition and athleticism were better in the 90's?

There was a window in the 90's where I would agree about the competition, but that doesn't encompass the whole decade.

There are a host of great fighters from the 50's, and this isn't including top contenders that Im not even aware of.

Robinson
Saxton
Davey
Turner
Basilio
DeMarco
Graham
Gavilan
Fusari

them_apples
09-15-2009, 06:22 PM
He is great but in my mind not the best. He deserved the Trinidad win for sure, though. That was his biggest fight and he was clearly robbed.

in his prime though he would have given all the greats hell, that's the thing. had he traded with Trinidad he still probably would have won. debatable though.

mrboxer
09-15-2009, 06:22 PM
Careful with the words now. I never said I "don't know ****" about them. It just is hard to compare the old fighters with newer ones, because the level of competition and atheticism overall was a bit higher in the 90's than 50's for instance. Still not trying to take anything away from Robinson, Armstrong and those guys. Chill out.oscar would kayo every one on this list within the first round only leonard would last till the third:boxing:

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 06:30 PM
oscar would kayo every one on this list within the first round only leonard would last till the third:boxing:

What list? Oscar was not usually a first round knockout guy, but he would stop them all in the long run.:boxing: You know, I see now why everybody was screaming controversy after the Whitaker fight; this was a true American, English-speaking legend with an Anglo name getting demolished by this young Mexican-American upstart. It just couldn't be accepted by the majority of the biased American boxing circle. Believe me, there is something to it. Politics are always a part of the big picture in boxing.

Stoppage
09-15-2009, 06:36 PM
What list? Oscar was not usually a first round knockout guy, but he would stop them all in the long run.:boxing: You know, I see now why everybody was screaming controversy after the Whitaker fight; this was a true American, English-speaking legend with an Anglo name getting demolished by this young Mexican-American upstart. It just couldn't be accepted by the majority of the biased American boxing circle. Believe me, there is something to it. Politics are always a part of the big picture in boxing.

Look. It's pretty clear that you like Oscar but don't bring race or nationality into this.

JAB5239
09-15-2009, 06:39 PM
Look. It's pretty clear that you like Oscar but don't bring race or nationality into this.

This just became a troll thread with another ridiculous reason to dismiss Whitaker.

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 06:39 PM
Look. It's pretty clear that you like Oscar but don't bring race or nationality into this.

Its about nationality for sure. And not just that, but also who was more accepted at the time. HBO has always been partial when it comes to Mexicans vs (Afro)Americans. Always leaning on the latter's side. And Whitaker was considered a legend by then, so dismantling an AMERICAN legend was unforgivable.:rolleyes:

And in the end, let me say one more thing: yes I like Oscar. And fuk everyone that likes ******* Whitaker more than Oscar! They are either racists or just stupid as hell. You saying black people don't go by race when they choose which fighter to favor??

Benncollinsaad
09-15-2009, 06:47 PM
The whole crowd that night was pro Oscar and everyone was making a big deal about Oscar. Including HBO. So I don't know how they would be leaning on Whitaker's side.

And FYI, HBO has nothing to do with who wins. It's the judges. And the judges aren't from HBO.

Now please, let's just get back on topic and not the hatred of certain fighters.

I didn't say HBO had anything to do with the decisions. Fuk man, you gotta start reading my posts more carefully!:rolleyes: They are the MEDIA and media has a lot to say. I'm saying its easier to become accepted by the medias in US when you are one of their own, so to speak. Foreign fighters have to work harder and achieve A LOT before they are universally accepted. Not that Oscar is a foreigner, but sometimes it feels like that.

The Jackal
09-18-2009, 07:29 AM
Robinson he was a batter 147 than 160 fighter Armstrong & Gavilan others you could throw in there on list, but Robinson is the best at 147 ATG my IMO his record speaks for its self in that division only 1 loss, non title fight to La Motta & that was meant be very close.

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 07:51 AM
I cant believe nobody else voted for Oscar...even Trinidad got more votes! You truly are morons, forgive me, but it is so. You are hating on the man, so you ignore all his achievements, which have been many. No other welterweight has won as many titles and in as many different divisions. Name me one!:grr:

And who da fuk is JOSE NAPOLES??! Why is he better than DLH??

TheGreatA
09-18-2009, 09:12 AM
I cant believe nobody else voted for Oscar...even Trinidad got more votes! You truly are morons, forgive me, but it is so. You are hating on the man, so you ignore all his achievements, which have been many. No other welterweight has won as many titles and in as many different divisions. Name me one!:grr:

And who da fuk is JOSE NAPOLES??! Why is he better than DLH??

Napoles made 13 welterweight title defenses in a span of 6 years and cleaned out the division.

I'm afraid Oscar's amount of titles won't matter when the discussion is about what he did at 147.

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 09:31 AM
Napoles made 13 welterweight title defenses in a span of 6 years and cleaned out the division.

I'm afraid Oscar's amount of titles won't matter when the discussion is about what he did at 147.

He'd kick this guys ass, thats for sure!:boxing: What he did at 147?!? How can you ever sincerely DOUBT his achievements at 147?? If you do, just stop calling yourself an expert right away!

TheGreatA
09-18-2009, 09:45 AM
He'd kick this guys ass, thats for sure!:boxing: What he did at 147?!? How can you ever sincerely DOUBT his achievements at 147?? If you do, just stop calling yourself an expert right away!

I don't really know what is so impressive about his welterweight career. Pernell was slipping while Camacho & Chavez were just plain old.

Oba Carr I was never that impressed by, having seen former lightweight Livingstone Bramble knock him around the ring in their contest only to lose a split decision. I guess he must have gotten better as the years went by but he was never able to beat the top fighters.

Quartey was his best win and it was razor-close.

He left the Trinidad fight in the judges' hands and paid for it. He effectively ended any chance of him being ranked a great welterweight by declining a rematch and thus the last couple of rounds against Trinidad will likely forever describe De La Hoya's welterweight career.

Shane Mosley then went up from lightweight to beat De La Hoya, quite clearly in my opinion. Oscar never fought at welterweight again until his foolish return to 147 against Pacquiao.

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 09:52 AM
I don't really know what is so impressive about his welterweight career. Pernell was slipping while Camacho & Chavez were just plain old.

Oba Carr I was never that impressed by, having seen former lightweight Livingstone Bramble knock him around the ring in their contest only to lose a split decision. I guess he must have gotten better as the years went by but he was never able to beat the top fighters.

Quartey was his best win and it was razor-close.

He left the Trinidad fight in the judges' hands and paid for it. He effectively ended any chance of him being ranked a great welterweight by declining a rematch and thus the last couple of rounds against Trinidad will likely forever describe De La Hoya's welterweight career.

Shane Mosley then went up from lightweight to beat De La Hoya, quite clearly in my opinion. Oscar never fought at welterweight again until his foolish return to 147 against Pacquiao.

Thank you. I now have a clear view on your expertise. I respect your opinion, but frankly...FRANKLY I don't like it! Btw, Oscar went up to 154 and beat Vargas AND Mosley, isnt that worth of high praise?

BennyST
09-18-2009, 10:50 AM
I cant believe nobody else voted for Oscar...even Trinidad got more votes! You truly are morons, forgive me, but it is so. You are hating on the man, so you ignore all his achievements, which have been many. No other welterweight has won as many titles and in as many different divisions. Name me one!:grr:

And who da fuk is JOSE NAPOLES??! Why is he better than DLH??

:nonono:

You're arguing in a discussion about WW's and you don't even know who Napoles is? Jesus man, and you wonder why people don't agree with you?

The whole Whitaker racist thing is just really moronic too mate. I love to watch Whitaker fight and I'm about as white as you can get and from Australia. So, how does that tie in with your theory of "You're obviously black and racist if you prefer Whitaker to Oscar"?

BennyST
09-18-2009, 10:54 AM
Thank you. I now have a clear view on your expertise. I respect your opinion, but frankly...FRANKLY I don't like it! Btw, Oscar went up to 154 and beat Vargas AND Mosley, isnt that worth of high praise?

Sure it is, but we're talking about WW's here, not the JMW (or any other division he fought in for that matter) division and achievements made therein.

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 11:06 AM
Sure it is, but we're talking about WW's here, not the JMW (or any other division he fought in for that matter) division and achievements made therein.

Hi.:) I wish everybody could say it like you just did, politely and without malice. I know we are talking about the WW. The fact is: Oscar DID beat Trinidad, Mosley(not at 147 perhaps, but still), Quartey, Whitaker and Camacho. All those names are among the greatest in the history of 147.

And Oba Carr WAS good. Good enough to give Quartey his first close 12 rounds. Quartey won the fight clearly, but was having problems with Carr in the last four rounds and got knocked down in the 11th.

BennyST
09-18-2009, 11:51 AM
In fact, I'm wondering if you're just completely taking the piss now. I mean, c'mon, how can you possibly pretend not to know Jose 'Mantequilla' Napoles? Not only that but you say he hasn't done **** compared to Oscar?

Ok, a brief summary for you on how Oscar doesn't even come close to comparing to Napoles. He was absolutely one of the great, and obviously forgotten, underrated fighters of all time.

As the GreatA said, he made thirteen defenses of his WW title, but, this was in a time when there was one main champion, only the WBC and WBA belts and all contenders fought for that main championship. Now, not only did he defend it thirteen times but he defended the undisputed ie. he held both titles, thirteen times.

He was also already 29 when he won those titles and had fought the best the sport had to offer for 11 long years before finally getting the shot at the great champion Curtis Cokes who himself was the undisputed WW champ and made six great defenses of that title over three years, which more or less equals Oscar's title run at WW in fact.

In those eleven years he fought some truly great fighters, among them was the great Mexican lightweight Alfredo Urbina, Carlos Hernandez, 'Baby' Vasquez, LC Morgans, Adolph Pruitt, Eugenio Espinoza, etc etc.

He finally got his shot and beat Cokes, also beating him in the rematch both times by stoppage in the 13th. He would then go on to fight the legendary WW HOF'er Emille Griffith, winning a fifteen round UD before taking on the number one contender (who would have been a titlist in today's boxing world of ABC titles mind you) and brilliant fighter Ernie 'Indian Red' Lopez. He beat him in Lopez' only two title shots.

He then took on Billy Backus and the fight was given to Backus after a clash of heads opened a cut on Napoles too severe to continue. Napoles then stopped him in the rematch in eight.

After this would come a slew of great title defenses against incredible opposition. Hedgemon Lewis 51-3 x 2, Ralph Charles 39-3, Adolph Pruitt 44-10 (while the record may not seem impressive by today's standards, Pruitt was a great fighter of the day who beat many fantastic fighters and champions and was one of the top fighters for years), Roger Menetrey 49-4, Clyde Gray 40-2 ( Gray was one of Canada's brilliant fighters, beating fighters such as Marcel Cerdan Jr, Donato Paduano, but is best known for losing to a rising 15-0 Tommy Hearns when he was about thirty five or something), Horacio Saldano 50-4, Armando Muniz 39-8 and in his last fight against one of Britain's best world champs John Stracey.

But, in between Gray and Saldano he moved up to take on the undisputed middleweight king Carlos Monzon too, in a losing effort obviously as he was about half his size.

Nonetheless, with an eventual record of 79-7, thirteen title defenses of his undisputed WW crown, won when he was already 29 in 1969 and then finally losing to Stracey in Dec of 1975, as well as many other great wins over champions and other great fighters he was truly one of the greatest WW's to ever fight and well above Oscar.

Oscar made a solid seven defenses, among them his best wins were against Whitaker, Chavez (albeit an old one), Quartey (his best WW win in my opinion), but his other title fights were against Rivera, Gatti, Charpentier, an old Camacho, Kamau and Carr. Some decent wins but overall nothing to compare to the above title reign of Napoles. Not only that but he lost his biggest fight against Trinidad, however controversial, and also lost to Mosley who had moved up from lightweight directly. He was also only at WW for three years. In all honesty, and I still don't know if you're taking the piss or not, he simply doesn't compare to the WW greats.

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 11:53 AM
You can put him on the list for all I care. But not knowing who Jose Napoles was isn't exactly a crime. We're in 2009 for crying out loud!

I just think its SAD that if I hadnt voted for him, Oscar wouldn't get a SINGLE vote.:nonono: What is the world coming to...

BennyST
09-18-2009, 11:58 AM
You can put him on the list for all I care. But not knowing who Jose Napoles was isn't exactly a crime. We're in 2009 for crying out loud!

I just think its SAD that if I hadnt voted for him, Oscar wouldn't get a SINGLE vote.:nonono: What is the world coming to...and kiss my ass all of you!:D

Hey man, that's the whole point though! How can you possibly argue about something that you obviously know little about?

It's like saying Ricky Hatton is the best fighter and someone argues "Well, what about Marquez, Pacquiao and Mayweather?" and you saying "Who are they? I don't even know them so they can't be any good"

If you don't know who some of the greatest WW champs in history are how can you possible argue that Oscar was better? Man, that's just a given! Don't debate unless you at least know the subject and fighters you are debating over.

I don't mean that in a mean way at all by the way, but it's just weird that you would argue that Oscar is better than someone who he clearly is not and that you have never even heard of, you know?

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 12:00 PM
Hey man, that's the whole point though! How can you possibly argue about something that you obviously know little about?

It's like saying Ricky Hatton is the best fighter and someone argues "Well, what about Marquez, Pacquiao and Mayweather?" and you saying "Who are they? I don't even know them so they can't be any good"

If you don't know who some of the greatest WW champs in history are how can you possible argue that Oscar was better? Man, that's just a given! Don't debate unless you at least know the subject and fighters you are debating over.

Oh...sorry teacher!:guilty: Next time I'll mind my business!

BennyST
09-18-2009, 12:15 PM
I mean, ****, I could argue that Curtis Cokes was as good a WW as Oscar was. He had a title reign that was very similar in that he had a three year title run with as many defenses, and he also beat some genuine legendary HOF'ers.

Cokes beat Stan Harrington, Manuel Gonzalez, Kenny Lane, the legendary HOF'er Luis Manuel Rodriguez x 2, and his title defenses came against Jean Josselin 41-2 x 2, Francois Pavilla 33-3, Charlie Shipes 31-1, Willie Ludick 29-2 x 2, Ramon La Cruz 88-5, and his two fights against Napoles as well as a close decision loss to Manuel Sixto Alvarez.

BennyST
09-18-2009, 12:16 PM
Oh...sorry teacher!:guilty: Next time I'll mind my business!

Oh jesus, a smart ass. Great. You debate across two pages with many replies about Oscar being the best and then we find out you don't even know the guys you're saying he's better than. Well done mate.

:fing02:

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 12:17 PM
Oh jesus, a smart ass. Great. You debate across two pages with many replies about Oscar being the best and then we find out you don't even know the guys you're saying he's better than. Well done mate.

:fing02:

Thats the Aussie spirit.

Ziggy Stardust
09-18-2009, 01:16 PM
I happen to be a fan of both Whitaker AND De La Hoya. I consider De La Hoya an ATG at Welterweight (bottom half of the list but higher than Trinadad) and Whitaker number 3 ATG at Lightweight. I thought Whitaker won a solid decision over De La Hoya and Oscar in turn won a solid decision over Trinadad.

I have to say though that the level of hate for De La Hoya over in the NSB forum is appalling. You'd swear from reading posts over there that Oscar was than Cuevas and most of them would probably favor Pipino over him in anycase. Ridiculous.

Poet

TheGreatA
09-18-2009, 01:22 PM
I agree that Oscar gets some unwarranted hate. I don't underestimate his career but I believe that he, much like Roy Jones, will be rated more so for his overall career than for time spent in a single division. His accomplishments at WW don't rate up there with the very best.

Boxing_12
09-18-2009, 02:14 PM
I agree that Oscar gets some unwarranted hate. I don't underestimate his career but I believe that he, much like Roy Jones, will be rated more so for his overall career than for time spent in a single division. His accomplishments at WW don't rate up there with the very best.

Roy was pretty dominat at 175 do.

Stoppage
09-18-2009, 04:03 PM
Glad to see this is still a topic of discussion.

I realize now that of all the people I should have put on the list, it should have been Armstrong. I just considered him more of a lightweight since that's the weight he mostly fought at in his prime. But he did make his most defenses with the welterweight title. Oh, well. He's still top 5 pound for pound of all-time, to me.

I'm also surprised there's not that many votes for Whitaker or Napoles. But I guess that can be understandable since Robinson and Leonard are the major candidates.

Benncollinsaad
09-18-2009, 04:05 PM
I'd vote for Hearns, but I never considered 147 his best weight. Most experts also think he peaked at 154. I also liked his few fights at 175 and at 168 also. Beat Olajide and Kinchen and had that unforgettable match with Leonard at that weight.

Stoppage
09-18-2009, 04:31 PM
I'd vote for Hearns, but I never considered 147 his best weight. Most experts also think he peaked at 154. I also liked his few fights at 175 and at 168 also. Beat Olajide and Kinchen and had that unforgettable match with Leonard at that weight.
That's true. He did have his best wins at 154.

Leffe
09-18-2009, 04:39 PM
Robinson ruled 147 for a decade and was like 110-0

mickey malone
09-18-2009, 06:22 PM
Robinson all day long!!

2. Trinidad
3. Leonard

Obama
09-19-2009, 01:49 AM
Robinson all day long!!

2. Trinidad
3. Leonard

:nonono:
:nonono:
:nonono:

dionysius
09-19-2009, 02:44 AM
none of the above

PACQUIAO IS THE BEST

shyboirank#1
09-19-2009, 02:49 AM
floyd mayweather jr. is the best welterweight

crold1
09-19-2009, 02:52 AM
Where the hell is Henry Armstrong as a choice? 18 consecutive title defenses not enough to merit a vote over Shane Mosley?

Obama
09-19-2009, 03:03 AM
floyd mayweather jr. is the best welterweight

You're confusing Welterweight with Super Featherweight.

JAB5239
09-19-2009, 04:20 AM
You're confusing Welterweight with Super Featherweight.

Confused or no, I think the honors go to Arguello at 130. Jmo.

Obama
09-19-2009, 08:12 AM
Confused or no, I think the honors go to Arguello at 130. Jmo.

Thin man is over rated.

JAB5239
09-19-2009, 08:36 AM
Thin man is over rated.

Overrated? Explain.

The Jackal
09-19-2009, 09:15 AM
Confused or no, I think the honors go to Arguello at 130. Jmo.
Here here so say all of us..

126 Pep
130 Arguello
135 Duran
147 Robinson just nicks Armstrong
160 Marvin Hagler
175 Ezzard Charles
Heavy Ali.

Arguello was just a little slow on his feet need a little distance to get his shots off.
Robinson just a little to defencive weakness but more than made up for it in speed of hand & foot.
Armsrtong has a good case for top 147 if Robinson wasn't a round

Obama
09-19-2009, 03:27 PM
Overrated? Explain.

Arguello had far more weaknesses than Mayweather, not to mention would never have a prayer of beating Mayweather head to head. The man was not a complete fighter, Mayweather is.

Ziggy Stardust
09-19-2009, 04:14 PM
Arguello had far more weaknesses than Mayweather, not to mention would never have a prayer of beating Mayweather head to head. The man was not a complete fighter, Mayweather is.

Well THAT explains it: He's a ***** :puke:

Poet

JAB5239
09-19-2009, 04:29 PM
Arguello had far more weaknesses than Mayweather, not to mention would never have a prayer of beating Mayweather head to head. The man was not a complete fighter, Mayweather is.

Floyd has nothing to do with you calling him overrated and that is what Im asking you to explain.


You won't be able to change the fact Arguello fought and beat the better fighters at 130.

Obama
09-19-2009, 05:38 PM
Floyd has nothing to do with you calling him overrated and that is what Im asking you to explain.


You won't be able to change the fact Arguello fought and beat the better fighters at 130.

Resume ain't everything. Losses @ FW and LW, and gift decisions at SFW and LW also can't be over looked. The man could be out boxed, plain and simple. He was extremely basic and pretty damn slow. He was fundamentally great, but aside from his durability and punching power, nothing was particularly eye popping about him. I've never watched Arguello fight and said to myself "how the hell did he do that". He just wasn't that great.

JAB5239
09-20-2009, 10:15 AM
Resume ain't everything. Losses @ FW and LW, and gift decisions at SFW and LW also can't be over looked. The man could be out boxed, plain and simple. He was extremely basic and pretty damn slow. He was fundamentally great, but aside from his durability and punching power, nothing was particularly eye popping about him. I've never watched Arguello fight and said to myself "how the hell did he do that". He just wasn't that great.

How often was he out boxed? He fought a better caliber of fighters overall than Floyd, that can't be changed. I feel like you're trying to match them up head to head. That shouldn't have any bearing on historical greatness since it can't ever be proven. Joe Louis fought the same way as Arguello and he is arguably the greatest heavyweight in history.

Obama
09-20-2009, 01:51 PM
How often was he out boxed? He fought a better caliber of fighters overall than Floyd, that can't be changed. I feel like you're trying to match them up head to head. That shouldn't have any bearing on historical greatness since it can't ever be proven. Joe Louis fought the same way as Arguello and he is arguably the greatest heavyweight in history.

Joe Louis was a much sharper and more clever puncher, and he also used fast combinations. Arguello can't compare.

Arguello fought better fighters, but that's the thing about a lot of them, they were fighters rather than boxers. Arguello was poison to a fighter.

And my last post contained nothing about a h2h matchup...I'm merely pointing out the man's skills, which were lacking.

GJC
09-20-2009, 08:12 PM
He was fundamentally great, but aside from his durability and punching power, nothing was particularly eye popping about him. I've never watched Arguello fight and said to myself "how the hell did he do that". He just wasn't that great.

Did think of the old Fred Astaire quote for "but aside from his to durability and punching power" bit, balding, cant act, can't sing can dance a bit. :)
As for the sit up moments "how the hell did he do that", you could level that against a fair few ATG's Obama surely? Lots of them either had no real weaknesses like a Monzon or one big weapon. For every Whitaker/Sugar Ray there are 10 more like Hagler, tough very solid fighters.

Obama
09-20-2009, 09:08 PM
Did think of the old Fred Astaire quote for "but aside from his to durability and punching power" bit, balding, cant act, can't sing can dance a bit. :)
As for the sit up moments "how the hell did he do that", you could level that against a fair few ATG's Obama surely? Lots of them either had no real weaknesses like a Monzon or one big weapon. For every Whitaker/Sugar Ray there are 10 more like Hagler, tough very solid fighters.

Yep, but I will always rank the Whitakers and Leonards of the world above the Haglers.

GJC
09-20-2009, 09:11 PM
Yep, but I will always rank the Whitakers and Leonards of the world above the Haglers.
But you would agree that Hagler deserves to be an ATG?

Obama
09-20-2009, 11:03 PM
But you would agree that Hagler deserves to be an ATG?

Of course. :boxing:

JAB5239
09-21-2009, 01:22 AM
Joe Louis was a much sharper and more clever puncher, and he also used fast combinations. Arguello can't compare.

Arguello fought better fighters, but that's the thing about a lot of them, they were fighters rather than boxers. Arguello was poison to a fighter.

And my last post contained nothing about a h2h matchup...I'm merely pointing out the man's skills, which were lacking.

We will have to disagree again. Arguello had a fantastic jab, hook, right hand and was a great body puncher who had concussive power in both hands. He had good speed and subtle footwork much like Joe Louis. On top of all this he beat a great level of competition. Just don't understand how he can be overrated.

GJC
09-21-2009, 09:30 AM
Of course. :boxing:
Probably more a taste thing then, like his style or not I think Arguello did more than enough to be a top 20 ATG.