View Full Version : Leotis Martin


Benncollinsaad
09-13-2009, 06:05 PM
Can anybody give me some background info on this guy? All I know about him, and that is pretty impressive, is that he knocked out Sonny Liston. A somewhat faded Sonny Liston. I know he had to retire right after this fight because of a detached retina. Any other info?

Obama
09-13-2009, 06:17 PM
Can anybody give me some background info on this guy? All I know about him, and that is pretty impressive, is that he knocked out Sonny Liston. A somewhat faded Sonny Liston. I know he had to retire right after this fight because of a detached retina. Any other info?

Heavily faded Sonny Liston.

He was pretty good, and debatably a top 5 Philadelphian Heavyweight.

GJC
09-13-2009, 06:24 PM
Got to say know the name but not much else on him.
Liable to have amounted to anything without the eye problem Obama?

Obama
09-13-2009, 06:42 PM
Got to say know the name but not much else on him.
Liable to have amounted to anything without the eye problem Obama?

Eh, I think he maximized his potential tbh. He wasn't likely to get a better win than Liston. He could have got more wins on par with a faded Liston tho...evident in his wins over Thad Spencer and Karl Mildenberger.

TheGreatA
09-13-2009, 07:29 PM
I think he would have gotten a title shot atleast. It's doubtful that he would have won though, Frazier would have been all over him and Ellis already beat him although it was a close contest until the stoppage.

He fought smart against Liston. Liston was still a force in the early rounds and knocked Martin down but Martin was game and not about to quit even though he was behind on points. He started to come on as the older man started to tire, and finished Liston off in devastating fashion.

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catalinul
09-13-2009, 09:56 PM
Sonny was done by the time they fought.

10 years past his prime.

Benncollinsaad
09-14-2009, 07:58 AM
Sonny was done by the time they fought.

10 years past his prime.

Nah, not 10. Just 6.;)

catalinul
09-14-2009, 10:43 AM
Nah, not 10. Just 6.;)

Your opinion.

His prime ended in 1959 by me.He was already past it by the time he fought Patterson and Ali.

Benncollinsaad
09-14-2009, 11:03 AM
Your opinion.

His prime ended in 1959 by me.He was already past it by the time he fought Patterson and Ali.

You crazy??! He blasted Patterson twice in '62 and won the title! He kept going till that fateful february day in '64.

catalinul
09-14-2009, 11:18 AM
You crazy??! He blasted Patterson twice in '62 and won the title! He kept going till that fateful february day in '64.

Yeah so?

Patterson was tailor made for him,smaller,chinny,didn't box in those fights.Plus you can see in the rematch Sonny misses a few punches on Floyd who was stationary.

He didn't even train for the Ali fight and gained weight.

Benncollinsaad
09-14-2009, 11:21 AM
Yeah so?

Patterson was tailor made for him,smaller,chinny,didn't box in those fights.Plus you can see in the rematch Sonny misses a few punches on Floyd who was stationary.

He didn't even train for the Ali fight and gained weight.

He still didn't lose any fights between the Ali fights and the Leotis fight.

TheGreatA
09-14-2009, 11:23 AM
You crazy??! He blasted Patterson twice in '62 and won the title! He kept going till that fateful february day in '64.

Liston destroyed Patterson but I agree with catalinul that Liston was getting older and also slower. He fought a total of three rounds in three years before fighting Ali.

The 1959-1960 Liston was the best Liston in my opinion. He was willing to walk through punishment in order to get a title shot he felt he deserved. I think Liston truly believed that winning the heavyweight title would change the way public thought about him but it turned out that they didn't.

catalinul
09-14-2009, 11:27 AM
He still didn't lose any fights between the Ali fights and the Leotis fight.

lol,yeah so and your point is?He fought a bunch of low level guys.Did Jose Luis Castillo lose any fights this year?

Benncollinsaad
09-14-2009, 11:28 AM
You can say Liston's peak was in 1959-60, but he still remained in his prime for four more years-bottom line!

catalinul
09-14-2009, 11:28 AM
Liston destroyed Patterson but I agree with catalinul that Liston was getting older and also slower. He fought a total of three rounds in three years before fighting Ali.

The 1959-1960 Liston was the best Liston in my opinion. He was willing to walk through punishment in order to get a title shot he felt he deserved. I think Liston truly believed that winning the heavyweight title would change the way public thought about him but it turned out that they didn't.

Yeah I agree.

He cleaned out the divison from 54 to 59 but that ended his best days.

TheGreatA
09-14-2009, 11:44 AM
You can say Liston's peak was in 1959-60, but he still remained in his prime for four more years-bottom line!

I saw signs of him slowing down. The rumour has it that he didn't prepare at all for the second Patterson fight and not much more for the Ali fight.

Either way he was washed up by the time he fought Martin. The man was still a force but he tired badly in the later rounds. Against Henry Clark, a top 10 rated contender at the time, he showed signs of tiring but was able to put together combinations to stop Clark. Against Martin, whom Clark had actually beaten, he had to pay for it.

BigMacFoster
09-14-2009, 11:53 AM
I heard he went trick or treating at Joe Frazier's home one halloween night,Twas no treat to find this irritated black man on your doorstep at night,Thankfully Smoking Joe had his chin tucked into his dressing gown and Martin meant no harm........turns out he just wanted a simple fight that's all.

TheGreatA
09-14-2009, 12:14 PM
I heard he went trick or treating at Joe Frazier's home one halloween night,Twas no treat to find this irritated black man on your doorstep at night,Thankfully Smoking Joe had his chin tucked into his dressing gown and Martin meant no harm........turns out he just wanted a simple fight that's all.

Why should Frazier have fought Leotis Martin?

BigMacFoster
09-14-2009, 12:52 PM
What,What do you mean? I never suggested anything,Nothing at all.

besides that Yank Durham knew Martin well,He was just protecting Smoking Joe.


He really did care about Smoking Joe did Yank,He didn't want him anywhere near a Ali rematch or against foreman.


It's just a shame how Joe frazier shows such little regard for his past trainers who had his best interests at heart,first when Yank died and then constantly dogging Eddie futch's good name through the dirt.


Just wasn't right.

TheGreatA
09-14-2009, 01:08 PM
What,What do you mean? I never suggested anything,Nothing at all.

besides that Yank Durham knew Martin well,He was just protecting Smoking Joe.


He really did care about Smoking Joe did Yank,He didn't want him anywhere near a Ali rematch or against foreman.


It's just a shame how Joe frazier shows such little regard for his past trainers who had his best interests at heart,first when Yank died and then constantly dogging Eddie futch's good name through the dirt.


Just wasn't right.

You've said it before.

If Frazier was protected then why did he take on Oscar Bonavena in his 12th fight, Eddie Machen in his 13th and Doug Jones in his 14th? Why would he give Bonavena a rematch and fight the sharp-punching Jimmy Ellis?

I'm afraid Martin was never in the position to be avoided.

Frazier never dogged Futch's name through dirt. It's a myth. Joe never forgiving Futch for not letting him go out for the 15th is just that, a myth. Aren't you the one who always criticizes people for believing in myths?

Benncollinsaad
09-14-2009, 01:20 PM
You've said it before.

If Frazier was protected then why did he take on Oscar Bonavena in his 12th fight, Eddie Machen in his 13th and Doug Jones in his 14th? Why would he give Bonavena a rematch and fight the sharp-punching Jimmy Ellis?

I'm afraid Martin was never in the position to be avoided.

Frazier never dogged Futch's name through dirt. It's a myth. Joe never forgiving Futch for not letting him go out for the 15th is just that, a myth. Aren't you the one who always criticizes people for believing in myths?

He likes to question the greatness of the greats.:rolleyes: Ungrateful job.:D

BigMacFoster
09-14-2009, 01:52 PM
You've said it before.

If Frazier was protected then why did he take on Oscar Bonavena in his 12th fight, Eddie Machen in his 13th and Doug Jones in his 14th? Why would he give Bonavena a rematch and fight the sharp-punching Jimmy Ellis?

I'm afraid Martin was never in the position to be avoided.

Frazier never dogged Futch's name through dirt. It's a myth. Joe never forgiving Futch for not letting him go out for the 15th is just that, a myth. Aren't you the one who always criticizes people for believing in myths?


Did you know that bonavena was actually the underdog during their first fight?

Pretty amazing really considering Ringo's experience.

I can't explain Durham's matchmaking,Only Yank Durham knew what he was doing,Obviously he saw something in Leotis Martin that the general public didn't.He knew Leotis Martin better than most in the game

Eddie futch I believe was very much responsible for making the Machen fight and Machen was a good name but a faded fighter and before you point out that he beat Jerry Quarry.

Quarry in those days was pretty mediocre,Compared to what he later became during the late 1960's-early 1970's,He had struggled against a decent experienced opponent in Tony Alongi twice already.Doug Jones too was a very much faded fighter.


The myth was created by frazier himself.I used to believe it until I heard what the widow of Eddie futch had to say on that matter.

"It's been reported that Joe never forgave Eddie for throwing in the towel after the 14th round but that isn't true. Joe visited us here at home many times and came to Eddie's memorial service at Caesar's Palace in 2001. Being a corner man is a tough job and Eddie had seen too many boxers die during his (many)years as a Trainer. Boxing is not a game; it's Life and death! So when Joe's vision was starting to close in the 12 and 13th round, it was then Eddie had to start thinking about Joe's safety. It was a hard decision but the right one!"

Eva Futch



He likes to question the greatness of the greats.:rolleyes: Ungrateful job.:D

To question the greatness of a great,Wouldn't I have to question the greatness of an actual.......um great?

GJC
09-14-2009, 02:02 PM
I saw signs of him slowing down. The rumour has it that he didn't prepare at all for the second Patterson fight and not much more for the Ali fight.

Either way he was washed up by the time he fought Martin. The man was still a force but he tired badly in the later rounds. Against Henry Clark, a top 10 rated contender at the time, he showed signs of tiring but was able to put together combinations to stop Clark. Against Martin, whom Clark had actually beaten, he had to pay for it.
Liston post Ali was probably akin to Tyson post the 2nd Holyfield loss. Could still take the 2nd level opposition out and look impressive doing so but declining as a fighter.

TheGreatA
09-14-2009, 02:18 PM
Did you know that bonavena was actually the underdog during their first fight?

Pretty amazing really considering Ringo's experience.

Frazier was the big prospect but having seen Bonavena fight Chuvalo (which was the fight before he faced Frazier), I certainly wouldn't have put Frazier anywhere near Bonavena until atleast 20+ fight pro experience. Bonavena handled pressure fighters very well, arguably knocking Chuvalo down, although he was made to look crude by good boxers.

I can't explain Durham's matchmaking,Only Yank Durham knew what he was doing,Obviously he saw something in Leotis Martin that the general public didn't.He knew Leotis Martin better than most in the game

Martin I think had somewhat of a reputation as a sparring partner, he had actually worked for Liston previous to their actual fight which might explain why he wasn't intimidated in the least, but he wasn't really putting it all together in the professional ring until the Liston fight which unfortunately ended his career.

He would lose a big fight, win a big fight, lose a big fight, win a big fight and so on. I can't see him ever being considered for Frazier as an opponent until Martin KO'd Liston. Then again he was another Philadelphia fighter and it could have been somewhat big with two hometown fighters fighting each other.

Eddie futch I believe was very much responsible for making the Machen fight and Machen was a good name but a faded fighter and before you point out that he beat Jerry Quarry.

Quarry in those days was pretty mediocre,Compared to what he later became during the late 1960's-early 1970's,He had struggled against a decent experienced opponent in Tony Alongi twice already.Doug Jones too was a very much faded fighter.

Machen was faded without a doubt but he was very, very game against Frazier. In the end he was the "right" fight for Frazier but considering how he had exposed a couple of prospects in his previous fights and how much experience he had, Machen certainly wouldn't be the first opponent to come to my mind that I'd put against a rising 10 fight prospect.

Quarry was raw at that point of his career but he still looked fairly good in some of the early fights that I've seen of him.

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The myth was created by frazier himself.I used to believe it until I heard what the widow of Eddie futch had to say on that matter.

"It's been reported that Joe never forgave Eddie for throwing in the towel after the 14th round but that isn't true. Joe visited us here at home many times and came to Eddie's memorial service at Caesar's Palace in 2001. Being a corner man is a tough job and Eddie had seen too many boxers die during his (many)years as a Trainer. Boxing is not a game; it's Life and death! So when Joe's vision was starting to close in the 12 and 13th round, it was then Eddie had to start thinking about Joe's safety. It was a hard decision but the right one!"

Eva Futch


I also read an interview in which Frazier said that he respected Futch's decision.

Benncollinsaad
09-14-2009, 02:26 PM
I hate Eddie Machen. That smug fuk.

TheGreatA
09-14-2009, 02:36 PM
I hate Eddie Machen. That smug fuk.

He was a bit crazy but not as crazy as Cleveland Williams.

Obama
09-17-2009, 05:03 AM
I hate Eddie Machen. That smug fuk.

Don't hate, appreciate.

Both Ingemar Johansson and Floyd Patterson lucked out on 9/14/58. Ingy won the lottery, and Patterson got to breathe a sigh of relief of never having to face a prime Eddie Machen. Had things been different, the title progression would have happened the right way:

Patterson -> Machen -> Folley -> Liston

Instead we end up with flukes and ducks exchanging belts until Liston shows up, who had to wait so long for the title that after he won it he lost all hunger in the sport.

Benncollinsaad
09-17-2009, 11:12 AM
Don't hate, appreciate.

Both Ingemar Johansson and Floyd Patterson lucked out on 9/14/58. Ingy won the lottery, and Patterson got to breathe a sigh of relief of never having to face a prime Eddie Machen. Had things been different, the title progression would have happened the right way:

Patterson -> Machen -> Folley -> Liston

Instead we end up with flukes and ducks exchanging belts until Liston shows up, who had to wait so long for the title that after he won it he lost all hunger in the sport.

He was 30. Not exactly the oldest champ in history. But fine, if you say so I believe you.;)

Obama
09-17-2009, 06:46 PM
He was 30. Not exactly the oldest champ in history. But fine, if you say so I believe you.;)

Look how great Tyson was at age 30. ;)

Benncollinsaad
09-17-2009, 06:50 PM
Look how great Tyson was at age 30. ;)

You comparing Tyson and Liston?Nonono!:nonono: :D

Obama
09-17-2009, 06:52 PM
You comparing Tyson and Liston?Nonono!:nonono: :D

I'm comparing two convicts that were at their best early in their careers...I see no problem with it. :boxing:

JAB5239
09-17-2009, 06:54 PM
You comparing Tyson and Liston?Nonono!:nonono: :D

Besides their ages at the time they were at their best their careers are almost a mirror image of one another right up to their win/loss records and ko ratio.

Benncollinsaad
09-17-2009, 07:00 PM
I'm comparing two convicts that were at their best early in their careers...I see no problem with it. :boxing:

Yea, but the difference between them is that Liston went behind bars for doing something stupid as a teen and Tyson for raping a beauty pageant contestant when he was 25 and at the height of his career.

JAB5239
09-17-2009, 07:09 PM
Yea, but the difference between them is that Liston went behind bars for doing something stupid as a teen and Tyson for raping a beauty pageant contestant when he was 25 and at the height of his career.

In 1955, he won six fights, he won five by knockouts, including a rematch with Marshall, whom he knocked out in six rounds. A rubber match with Marshall in 1956 saw him the winner by a ten-round decision, but in May of that year he again ran afoul of the law, accused of beating up a police officer. He was paroled after serving six months of a nine-month sentence and prohibited from boxing during 1957.

Liston was out 2 years of his prime compared to 3 for Mike. Another valid comparison.

Slimey Limey
09-17-2009, 07:27 PM
Tyson is Sonny Liston AND Jack Dempsey.

Benncollinsaad
09-17-2009, 07:37 PM
Sonny and Foreman were friends, were they not? Or rather, Sonny was a mentor to George. I know they had some exhibitions together. Thats cool