When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ? ive been watching a lot of Ali the last few days trying to work out when exactly he started to slide.

I think it was around the time he lost to Norton and labored against Lyle, Bugner 2 but i believe the Wepner fight might have taken a lot out of him, although he did not take much if any punishment in the fight it was a grueling pace for him, i think he dropped down to the canvas at the end of the fight through tiredness if i remember right.

Lyle was arguably infront in the fight, although i had it a draw at the time of the stoppage.


I thought his balance looked horrible against Bugner 2 and that is usually an indication of a fighter who is on the slide. If you disagree with me then im sure you'd agree that if Ali was not on the slide before Frazier fight he certainly was after it.

Then came the 3rd Frazier fight.

Since the 1st Frazier fight Ali had looked decent/good against Ellis without looking spectacular, he put in a poor performance against Mathis in a dull fight, he beat Blin but not really worth mentioning besides the fact he scored a stoppage, he had what i believe was an impressive performance against a tough Chuvalo whom put more pressure on him this time and had a little more success, then he fought Quarry and i thought Ali looked in great form for this fight, he beat Quarry with ease. Patterson actually won a few early rounds but i think Ali was playing with him because he knew eventually the extra size would take its toll, same story with Bob Foster really, he won a few rounds with the jab but once Ali established his size advantage he put Foster down multiple times. I thought Ali looked excellent against Joe Bugner 1 and then came the loss to Norton which is somewhat surprising to me because of how good i thought Ali looked against Bugner.

I know Ali still went on to beat ,Frazier, Shavers, Norton again but i think that is mark of how good he was more so than how much he had left. Most people have their reservations about whether he won the Norton 3 fight to (not me)

So when do you think Muhammad Ali start to slide, he does not necessarily have to be shot but you get where im coming from :boxing:

Norton definitely.. Good post..

Ali took Norton lightly and was not in good condition.

Plus Norton had a style that would have bothered a prime Ali.

Ali was never the same after the Triller in Manilla.He left a piece of himself in the ring that night.Two fights later he got beat by Jimmy Young and later in that year by Norton easily in 1976.Young and Norton both got robbed.

Ali's next fight against Evengalista he looked terrible,and his next fight against Shavers he could not get out of the way of Shavers bombs.It was an even fight that Ali won by a gift.

So it was after the Triller in Manilla that he started to slide....And badly.

It could also been said he slipped after his 4 year lay-off,when he no longer had the quick reflexes to avoid punches as well,and his legs were not what they used to be.

Norton definitely.. Good post..

Ali took Norton lightly and was not in good condition.

Plus Norton had a style that would have bothered a prime Ali.

Ali was never the same after the Triller in Manilla.He left a piece of himself in the ring that night.Two fights later he got beat by Jimmy Young and later in that year by Norton easily in 1976.Young and Norton both got robbed.

Ali's next fight against Evengalista he looked terrible,and his next fight against Shavers he could not get out of the way of Shavers bombs.It was an even fight that Ali won by a gift.

So it was after the Triller in Manilla that he started to slide....And badly.

It could also been said he slipped after his 4 year lay-off,when he no longer had the quick reflexes to avoid punches as well,and his legs were not what they used to be.

Cheers Mickey.:boxing:


Good post!

You know i hear kids in NSB saying stuff like ........Ali's skills/talent are overated and that is pure bull****!


Ali was a master at drawing leads (head feints) and countering, his accuracy was excellent and his power underrated to, not to say he was big hitter but he could take you out late after he had broken you down. Lyle had never been stopped i dont think, and we know how tough Bonavena, Quarry are/were.

Disagree about Norton 3 though :lol1:

After the third Frazier fight.

I'm with GreatA and Boxingbuff, Manilla took something from Ali. From his speach, grace, reflexes and accuracy. I've said it before, I think the whole Parkinsons syndrome started there........probably in rounds 5 and 6, Frazier's left hooks in these rounds were belters.

I know it sounds geeky and really very sad but I can often pick the year out, whether it be 1976-1981 from Ali's voice and articulation in interviews. All started with Manilla! His motor skills went down after every fight, Dr Ferdie Pacheco left after the Shavers fight, he was worried about brain damage. Angelo Dundee noticed him starting to stutter two years before he retired and states that he thought Ali was fighting with the early signs of Parkinsons as early as the Spinks fights.

But really, Ali did appear to peak in 1967 and was never as good again. When he came back in 1970 he wasn't as good. In his autobiography he says that it took him till the second Quarry fight in 1972 to 'find his legs' and I'd wager that the Ali of 1974 was as good as he ever was in the 70s. The second fight with Frazier was impressive, he near on danced 12 rounds and threw tones of combinations and no one can argue with what he did to Foreman later that year too.

I'm with GreatA and Boxingbuff, Manilla took something from Ali. From his speach, grace, reflexes and accuracy. I've said it before, I think the whole Parkinsons syndrome started there........probably in rounds 5 and 6, Frazier's left hooks in these rounds were belters.

I know it sounds geeky and really very sad but I can often pick the year out, whether it be 1976-1981 from Ali's voice and articulation in interviews. All started with Manilla! His motor skills went down after every fight, Dr Ferdie Pacheco left after the Shavers fight, he was worried about brain damage. Angelo Dundee noticed him starting to stutter two years before he retired and states that he thought Ali was fighting with the early signs of Parkinsons as early as the Spinks fights.

But really, Ali did appear to peak in 1967 and was never as good again. When he came back in 1970 he wasn't as good. In his autobiography he says that it took him till the second Quarry fight in 1972 to 'find his legs' and I'd wager that the Ali of 1974 was as good as he ever was in the 70s. The second fight with Frazier was impressive, he near on danced 12 rounds and threw tones of combinations and no one can argue with what he did to Foreman later that year too.


I hear you there, i actually thought i could hear a slight slur in Ali's voice in the Ron Lyle pre fight preview, however i might be hearing something that is not there but that is the impression i was getting so.....


You know so many people talk about the Norton 2/3 fights being controversial and i actually think Ali won both, if anyone should hold a grudge against Ali i think it should be Jimmy Young, because i had Young beating Ali something like 9 rounds to 6.

Not sure if I hear any slurring here and this was around the time Holmes fought Norton:

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I had Ali winning Norton 2 by one round........the last! But I had Norton 3 a draw.

As for the Young fight I didn't score it on last viewing but didn't feel that Young quite deserved the verdict as awful as Ali was that night. The judges gave it to Ali by too great a margin though.

Not sure if I hear any slurring here and this was around the time Holmes fought Norton:

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I dont know Machine i can hear a bit of sissing in his speech pattern.

I had Ali winning Norton 2 by one round........the last! But I had Norton 3 a draw.

As for the Young fight I didn't score it on last viewing but didn't feel that Young quite deserved the verdict as awful as Ali was that night. The judges gave it to Ali by too great a margin though.



I think i had him beating Norton by about the same to, he was more active throughout both fights..........bottom line.

I know those scores were ridiculous!

Hi GreatA, loved the ABC footage. Ali seemed pretty good there, no slurring, fast and witty.....as good as I've seen him in 1978. The signs were far more noticeable when he was more relaxed, he was pretty pumped there. I've seen other interviews after Spinks 1 where he was much worse. Angelo Dundee said that Ali would just use the excuse that he was tired when it was first noticed by the former.

I wasn't that he slurred at this point, more that his voice got a strange droning tone or a gruffness that made you feel he needed to take a large breath or cough. You never saw that before Frazier 3 and you could occasionally catch a strange, vacant expression around the eyes. I remember clocking it a few times in the 1976/77 movie 'the Greatest'. He obviously wasn't inarticulate at all in 1979/80 because he shot the film 'Freedom Road'.

In fact he was pretty fast talking in the buildup to the Berbick fight in 1981, but you could see he wasn't quite right in the pre fight press conference. In the post fight interview after you could barely understand him.

Even in 1988 when Champions Forever was filmed there were times when he was excited and animated where his speach seemed fine for a guy diagnosed with Parkinsons four years previous, but other times when he was more relaxed he seemed to be difficult to understand.

Parkinsons syndrome is a cruel, inconsistent condition. Just imagine the good Ali could have done if he'd have retired with his health intact! Or just be grateful he didn't, or sods law says he'd have made a comeback to fight Tyson in 86/87 when he was in his mid 40s!!!!!

I'm 55 years old and seen every Ali interview and film and press conference etc etc.

The first I noticed his slurred speech was in 1978 before the 2nd Spinks fight.In fact,the interview man mentioned it to Ali.He said: "Your not as fast or sharp as you used to be Muhammad"

In 1979 I really noticed Ali slur his words and kinda space out on the Johnny Carson Show.I noticed the same thing from that time on until the build up for Larry Holmes.At first Ali was slurring his words and acually drooling on himself without noticing it.The closer the fight got and the more excited he got,his voice became more clear and easy to understand.

After the Holmes fight 90% of the time I saw him,he seemed spaced out and talked very slow and slurred his words badly.Cossell and others said they could not understand a word he said on the telephone.This was all before the Berbick fight!!

Post Berbick.....Well,we all know the sad story and decline.

I think there were a few stages with ali's slide. With regard to his boxing rather than medically it is not as easy as it seems because even at his peak he could throw a dog of a performance in. The 3 year lay off marked the end of his peak, sharp decline after manilla and rapid downhill slide after shavers IMO.

Hi GreatA, loved the ABC footage. Ali seemed pretty good there, no slurring, fast and witty.....as good as I've seen him in 1978. The signs were far more noticeable when he was more relaxed, he was pretty pumped there. I've seen other interviews after Spinks 1 where he was much worse. Angelo Dundee said that Ali would just use the excuse that he was tired when it was first noticed by the former.

I wasn't that he slurred at this point, more that his voice got a strange droning tone or a gruffness that made you feel he needed to take a large breath or cough. You never saw that before Frazier 3 and you could occasionally catch a strange, vacant expression around the eyes. I remember clocking it a few times in the 1976/77 movie 'the Greatest'. He obviously wasn't inarticulate at all in 1979/80 because he shot the film 'Freedom Road'.

In fact he was pretty fast talking in the buildup to the Berbick fight in 1981, but you could see he wasn't quite right in the pre fight press conference. In the post fight interview after you could barely understand him.

Even in 1988 when Champions Forever was filmed there were times when he was excited and animated where his speach seemed fine for a guy diagnosed with Parkinsons four years previous, but other times when he was more relaxed he seemed to be difficult to understand.

Parkinsons syndrome is a cruel, inconsistent condition. Just imagine the good Ali could have done if he'd have retired with his health intact! Or just be grateful he didn't, or sods law says he'd have made a comeback to fight Tyson in 86/87 when he was in his mid 40s!!!!!

Ali certainly not sounding very bad even in the pre-fight build-up for Ali vs Holmes but after the fight you can clearly hear him slurring his words, making him difficult to understand.

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The third Frazier fight transitioned him to over the hill, but the question is when did he initially start to slide? Some people believe ever since he came out of exile, but I don't see it that way. Frazier beat a prime Ali in my mind. He used less athletic gifts, but he was a smarter fighter in the ring. Young and dumb Cassius Clay that got his ass nearly KOed by Henry Cooper prolly gets KOed by George Foreman if you ask me. Yet a declining Ali stopped Foreman. But when exactly did the decline start? I figure not too much before the Foreman fight.

The third Frazier fight transitioned him to over the hill, but the question is when did he initially start to slide? Some people believe ever since he came out of exile, but I don't see it that way. Frazier beat a prime Ali in my mind. He used less athletic gifts, but he was a smarter fighter in the ring. Young and dumb Cassius Clay that got his ass nearly KOed by Henry Cooper prolly gets KOed by George Foreman if you ask me. Yet a declining Ali stopped Foreman. But when exactly did the decline start? I figure not too much before the Foreman fight.


I believe Frazier beat Ali fair and square to, no excuses.

After the third Frazier fight.

I agree with that.

[QUOTE=Obama;5836036]The third Frazier fight transitioned him to over the hill, but the question is when did he initially start to slide? Some people believe ever since he came out of exile, but I don't see it that way. Frazier beat a prime Ali in my mind. He used less athletic gifts, but he was a smarter fighter in the ring.

Coming back with 2 fights in almost 4 years in not prime no matter how you want look at it. And Ali was not the same fighter that he was in 67. His legs were not the same and the timing was not as sharp.




Young and dumb Cassius Clay that got his ass nearly KOed by Henry Cooper prolly gets KOed by George Foreman if you ask me.


Ali was only 21 years old for that fight. Not prime.That's just like matching prime Ali to the Foreman that fought Gergorio Peralta.

Ali took Norton lightly and was not in good condition.

Plus Norton had a style that would have bothered a prime Ali.

Ali was never the same after the Triller in Manilla.He left a piece of himself in the ring that night.Two fights later he got beat by Jimmy Young and later in that year by Norton easily in 1976.Young and Norton both got robbed.

Ali's next fight against Evengalista he looked terrible,and his next fight against Shavers he could not get out of the way of Shavers bombs.It was an even fight that Ali won by a gift.

So it was after the Triller in Manilla that he started to slide....And badly.

It could also been said he slipped after his 4 year lay-off,when he no longer had the quick reflexes to avoid punches as well,and his legs were not what they used to be.


I dont know how anyone could say he beat Jimmy Young i really dont.

If you watch the fight closely, by that i mean score the punches that actually LAND and discard the ones that dont, and score it round by round i dont see how Ali won the fight.

I had it 9 rounds to 6 for Young, even Rahman Ali was yelling to Ali in the 11th that he was losing the fight.

joseph, Ali's two tune up fights were against world class opponents. One people have the nerve to call the greatest Heavyweight to never win the title. He was as ready as ready could be for that fight.

As for Cooper not being his prime, when the hell is his prime then? Must have been as short as Mike Tyson's.

Start to slide? During the three year layoff - his reflexes and footspeed diminished significantly. If you mean when did he begin to show signs of being shot, after Frazier III.

Jimmy Young
BORN November 16 1948; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
DIED February 20 2005; Philadelphia, Pennsylvania
HEIGHT 6-2
WEIGHT 185-237 lbs
RECORD 34-19-2 (11 KO, 1 NC)
Young was a talented "Philadelphia" fighter with great ring "savvy"; He possessed fast hands and tangled with the best heavyweights during an era of outstanding big men; However, Jimmy was erratic in his performances - when he was good, he was great - but, when he was bad, he was terrible; To his credit, nearly half of his losses (9) came in his last fourteen fights - at the end of his career

Jimmy is most famous for his title bout against Muhammad Ali, a contest in which most boxing fans believe he won but received an unjust decision, and his victory over big George Foreman; Young defeated such men as Foreman, Ron Lyle, Richard Dunn, John L. Gardner, Jose Luis Garcia, Jose "King" Roman, "Memphis" Al Jones and Gordon Racette

Herb Goldman ranked Young among the Top 25 All-Time Heavyweights

joseph, Ali's two tune up fights were against world class opponents. One people have the nerve to call the greatest Heavyweight to never win the title. He was as ready as ready could be for that fight.

His opponents had nothing to do with whether he was still in his prime.

As for Cooper not being his prime, when the hell is his prime then? Must have been as short as Mike Tyson's.

It sure as hell wasn't when he was 21 with 18 pro fights. How many fighters do you know were in their primes at 21? Especially heavyweights. I would say his prime was when he was forced to give up the title in 67.

It sure as hell wasn't when he was 21 with 18 pro fights. How many fighters do you know were in their primes at 21? Especially heavyweights. I would say his prime was when he was forced to give up the title in 67.

So you're saying Muhammad Ali either never fought or fought 1-2 times in his prime...

So you're saying Muhammad Ali either never fought or fought 1-2 times in his prime...

That's not what I said but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said he was in his prime when he was stripped of his titles in 1967. I didn't say 1967 was when he reached his prime. That has nothing to do with how many fights he had in his prime. But the point is he was not in his prime for the first Cooper fight. He hadn't even had a championship fight yet. That's not debatable for most people.

That's not what I said but nice try putting words in my mouth. I said he was in his prime when he was stripped of his titles in 1967. I didn't say 1967 was when he reached his prime. That has nothing to do with how many fights he had in his prime. But the point is he was not in his prime for the first Cooper fight. He hadn't even had a championship fight yet. That's not debatable for most people.

Wrong, most people would call that a prime Ali. This is an olympic gold medalist we're talking about here. The man beat Sonny Liston for the title in his very next fight. So tell me, when the hell did he finally reach his prime?

I'd say that prime Ali was late 1966 and 1967. Best performances were Williams, Terrell and Folley. He improved every year from 63 onwards. The Ali that faced Cooper the second time in 1966 was much better than the one who fought in 1963.

1965 was an inactive year for Ali, a hernia caused this. In this year he had the one round win over Liston and the win over Patterson. His activity level in 1966 was much higher, Mildenberger, London, Cooper, Chuvalo and Williams really kept him sharp and helped him hone his craft.

I'd say that prime Ali was late 1966 and 1967. Best performances were Williams, Terrell and Folley. He improved every year from 63 onwards. The Ali that faced Cooper the second time in 1966 was much better than the one who fought in 1963.

1965 was an inactive year for Ali, a hernia caused this. In this year he had the one round win over Liston and the win over Patterson. His activity level in 1966 was much higher, Mildenberger, London, Cooper, Chuvalo and Williams really kept him sharp and helped him hone his craft.

I don't make a big deal of ring intelligence in prime status. By doing that, George Foreman effectively never fought in his prime, since he didn't gain any sense until he came out of a 10 year retirement. His lack of ring intelligence is the primary reason Ali and Young embarrassed him so bad. If he fought smart, a declining Ali would never have beat him. He'd go on to look better against a prime Evander Holyfield around 15 years after losing to Young.

Hi Obama, I didn't mention anything about ring intelligence although I agree with the premise, I just felt Ali was more graceful, sharper, more accurate, better paced and polished in the late 60s than early to mid, more of an athletic peak. In 'When We Were Kings' Ali talks about himself facing Liston as a '21 year old, underdeveloped kid', even he didn't think that was his prime.

I totally agree with you about George Foreman. If he hadn't retired I think his true peak would have come around 1982. Imagine a 32 year old 235 Lb Foreman with the patience of his later years but without the excess weight or lack of speed, he could have been amazing in the early 80s.

Thats nonsense. Any guy who says that Ali (or Clay at the time) was in his prime in the first Cooper fight, doesnt know what hes talking about. You could see him physically getting bigger and better by the fight. Look at Liston1 and then Liston2 to see the differences.

Yes even one year later in Liston 2 it was a bigger, stronger more confident Ali, dancing but not quite as frantically around the ring as in the first round of the first fight. I still think Liston threw the fight, but Ali did quite rightly seem to improve fight by fight.

Yes even one year later in Liston 2 it was a bigger, stronger more confident Ali, dancing but not quite as frantically around the ring as in the first round of the first fight. I still think Liston threw the fight, but Ali did quite rightly seem to improve fight by fight.

Well, in fact Ali weighed 206 pounds in the rematch and 211 pounds in the first fight. 207 against Cooper the first time, 201 against Cooper the second time.

Seems pretty big here to me:

http://www.stives-town.info/citizens/boxing/photos/images/btn_55.jpg

http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/images/2007/11/27/clay_cooper_325x400.jpg

Is that actually true GreatA? That Ali was lighter for the Liston return? You may have me there. He didn't look lighter to me, he seemed more muscular up top than a year previous. Either that or Liston looked smaller the second time round.

I did know that Ali was very light for Cooper 2, he wanted to be super fast for Henry.....who was no slouch himself. The Ali of Cooper 2 was much slicker than that of Cooper 1. In 3 years Ali had addressed alot of technical flaws.

Is that actually true GreatA? That Ali was lighter for the Liston return? You may have me there. He didn't look lighter to me, he seemed more muscular up top than a year previous. Either that or Liston looked smaller the second time round.

I did know that Ali was very light for Cooper 2, he wanted to be super fast for Henry.....who was no slouch himself. The Ali of Cooper 2 was much slicker than that of Cooper 1. In 3 years Ali had addressed alot of technical flaws.

It's true.

Here's pictures of the weigh-in for the rematch:

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE056158.jpg?size=67&uid=835e4d75-8120-4d45-be55-c9bd8237b30a&uniqID=8942acee-ad31-4a29-be5d-425ac22316c9

http://www.antekprizering.com/alilistoniiweighin03.jpeg

Weigh-in for the first fight:

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1:25

I always thought that the second Cooper fight was a bit of a disappointment.

Hi GreatA, I couldn't tell from the pics what the weight was but I'll believe you, I guess 5 lbs on a heavyweight is neither here or there but Ali did look in great shape for the return, less spindly almost.

As for Cooper 2, it was obvious that Ali was all business, no shuffles, little showboating, no reckless mistakes.....a careful performance till Henry was cut. Cooper did box quite well, but I dont remember actually giving him a round.

Hi GreatA, I couldn't tell from the pics what the weight was but I'll believe you, I guess 5 lbs on a heavyweight is neither here or there but Ali did look in great shape for the return, less spindly almost.

As for Cooper 2, it was obvious that Ali was all business, no shuffles, little showboating, no reckless mistakes.....a careful performance till Henry was cut. Cooper did box quite well, but I dont remember actually giving him a round.

After a 'more prime' Ali TKOed him in 6, on cuts once again, a post-prime Patterson KOed him in 4. I don't see an improvement in Ali's performance aside from not getting clocked. He employed new tactics, but it's not necessarily to say the old tactics were rookie ones. They worked just fine, it's his over confidence that got in the way.

Hi GreatA, I couldn't tell from the pics what the weight was but I'll believe you, I guess 5 lbs on a heavyweight is neither here or there but Ali did look in great shape for the return, less spindly almost.

As for Cooper 2, it was obvious that Ali was all business, no shuffles, little showboating, no reckless mistakes.....a careful performance till Henry was cut. Cooper did box quite well, but I dont remember actually giving him a round.

You can hear him say it in the Ali vs Chuvalo video I posted.

He fought so cautiously that the Cooper II bout would have probably gone the distance if not for Cooper's tendency to cut. Then again I guess that was the plan, to cut Cooper and fight cautiously until then.

Patterson went in for the kill from round 1 and was simply too fast for Henry Cooper. Ali himself was quite surprised at the ease Patterson dispatched Cooper, he had picked Cooper to win based on his experiences with both. Thought Patterson's chin couldn't take the left hook but it turned out to be the opposite.

Hi Folks, lets not forget Patterson was a more concussive one punch hitter than any version of Ali. His left hand was also actually clocked as quicker than Alis. No surprise that he beat Henry quicker.

You've got to admit Obama, Ali was slicker against Cooper the second time. He seemed to be much more clumsy and raw in the 1963 fight.

One thing that does seem to crop up on the forums is about Ali's foes such as Cooper, Terrell and Folley who after fighting Ali are beaten by less than stellar competition. They are therefore discounted as being not that good in the first place. Its very wrong to do this, boxing is a sport where losses and beatings can physically, mentally and psychologically depreciate a fighter. Taking blows to the head and body can cause some fighters to age very quickly in ring terms. Cooper as it happens still fought well into the late 60s, but it is unfair to expect Ali to have handled any version of Cooper better than Patterson.

Hi Folks, lets not forget Patterson was a more concussive one punch hitter than any version of Ali. His left hand was also actually clocked as quicker than Alis. No surprise that he beat Henry quicker.

You've got to admit Obama, Ali was slicker against Cooper the second time. He seemed to be much more clumsy and raw in the 1963 fight.

One thing that does seem to crop up on the forums is about Ali's foes such as Cooper, Terrell and Folley who after fighting Ali are beaten by less than stellar competition. They are therefore discounted as being not that good in the first place. Its very wrong to do this, boxing is a sport where losses and beatings can physically, mentally and psychologically depreciate a fighter. Taking blows to the head and body can cause some fighters to age very quickly in ring terms. Cooper as it happens still fought well into the late 60s, but it is unfair to expect Ali to have handled any version of Cooper better than Patterson.

Slicker doesn't necessarily equate to better for me. Michael Jordan became slicker in the 90s than he was in the 80s. Would I say he was a better player however? No...Air Jordan was more 'raw' but the athleticism made up for it.

Cooper was B level, I give Ali full credit for beating a B level fighter. His record was less spotty after Ali than before...

Terrell I also give him credit for, a semi-elite win. Ali ended Terrell's prime. He wasn't the same anymore.

But Folley? FOLLEY? Folley had two feet in the grave man. Man was elite in his prime, but damn, he was over the hill against Ali. Still, over the hill Folley is just as good as a prime Cooper.

Hi Folks, lets not forget Patterson was a more concussive one punch hitter than any version of Ali. His left hand was also actually clocked as quicker than Alis. No surprise that he beat Henry quicker.

You've got to admit Obama, Ali was slicker against Cooper the second time. He seemed to be much more clumsy and raw in the 1963 fight.

One thing that does seem to crop up on the forums is about Ali's foes such as Cooper, Terrell and Folley who after fighting Ali are beaten by less than stellar competition. They are therefore discounted as being not that good in the first place. Its very wrong to do this, boxing is a sport where losses and beatings can physically, mentally and psychologically depreciate a fighter. Taking blows to the head and body can cause some fighters to age very quickly in ring terms. Cooper as it happens still fought well into the late 60s, but it is unfair to expect Ali to have handled any version of Cooper better than Patterson.

I can't see Cooper lasting with Ali who fought Cleveland Williams. Williams was shot but the way Ali fought, the speed, the movement and the power he put behind his combinations would have been too much for Cooper.

Ali was simply over-confident the first time and overly cautious the second time against Cooper.

I can't see Cooper lasting with Ali who fought Cleveland Williams. Williams was shot but the way Ali fought, the speed, the movement and the power he put behind his combinations would have been too much for Cooper.

Ali was simply over-confident the first time and overly cautious the second time against Cooper.

I second that but i also think Ali was open to left hooks and that is why Cooper managed to drop him with it.

I do think that Frazier in his prime would beat Ali at any point his career though. I think that first fight took more out of Joe that it did Ali.

I must admit I dont share the view that a peak Frazier always beats a peak Ali. The Ali of 71 was good but nowhere near as good as four years previous.

Ali was faster, more ellusive, had better reflexes, was more accurate and able to move better and for longer. The second Frazier fight (allowing for BOTH fighters comparative decline!) was more indicative of how prime Ali would beat prime Frazier. In 1971 Ali couldn't dance, hit and move for 12 rounds, let alone 15! It took him a few years post layoff to find his legs again, he admits this in his own biography.

I must admit I dont share the view that a peak Frazier always beats a peak Ali. The Ali of 71 was good but nowhere near as good as four years previous.

Ali was faster, more ellusive, had better reflexes, was more accurate and able to move better and for longer. The second Frazier fight (allowing for BOTH fighters comparative decline!) was more indicative of how prime Ali would beat prime Frazier. In 1971 Ali couldn't dance, hit and move for 12 rounds, let alone 15! It took him a few years post layoff to find his legs again, he admits this in his own biography.

I think you are right, but!! Ali was not saavy enough to deal with Joe's style untill he had shared the ring with him and knew what to expect, so thats why i dont see Ali beating him in his prime either.

Wrong, most people would call that a prime Ali. This is an olympic gold medalist we're talking about here. The man beat Sonny Liston for the title in his very next fight. So tell me, when the hell did he finally reach his prime?

So Ali was in his prime when he won the medal? And you will have a hard time finding people who believe Ali was in his prime at 21 after just 18 pro fights..

If Ali wasn't in his prime against Frazier in the first fight, Marco Antonio Barrera wasn't in his prime against Pacquio. Just cuz he isn't peak athletically doesn't mean it's not his prime. If we went with the peak athletic argument then everyone would have a 1-3 year prime.

So Ali was in his prime when he won the medal? And you will have a hard time finding people who believe Ali was in his prime at 21 after just 18 pro fights..

You should answer my question before you ask me another one.

If Ali wasn't in his prime against Frazier in the first fight, Marco Antonio Barrera wasn't in his prime against Pacquio. Just cuz he isn't peak athletically doesn't mean it's not his prime. If we went with the peak athletic argument then everyone would have a 1-3 year prime.

Were talking about Ali. You can't compare one boxer to another when talking about primes.

You should answer my question before you ask me another one.

I think the answer is obvious.

I think the answer is obvious.

lol, Ali's prime is obvious? You gave me 1 year, 1967. So what other years are included? Apparently not 1963. So at the very best it could be is 1964-1967. Wow, guess what, 3 year prime. Wonder where I typed that before...

The man was only 29 when he fought Frazier the first time, had never been in bruising battle in his career yet (Jones fight being the closet thing to one), yet he was not prime? Not buyin it. He didn't look as good as he did in the mid 60s cuz that's the first time he met a guy with the proper abilities to beat him. Half decent chin, fast mobile target, high endurance, all things that would have given Ali hell at any point in his entire career.

Another interesting thing to note, Heavyweights tend to remain prime in their later years more than the lighter weight divisions.

lol, Ali's prime is obvious? You gave me 1 year, 1967. So what other years are included? Apparently not 1963. So at the very best it could be is 1964-1967. Wow, guess what, 3 year prime. Wonder where I typed that before...

The man was only 29 when he fought Frazier the first time, had never been in bruising battle in his career yet (Jones fight being the closet thing to one), yet he was not prime? Not buyin it. He didn't look as good as he did in the mid 60s cuz that's the first time he met a guy with the proper abilities to beat him. Half decent chin, fast mobile target, high endurance, all things that would have given Ali hell at any point in his entire career.

Another interesting thing to note, Heavyweights tend to remain prime in their later years more than the lighter weight divisions.

Ali had a style which relied HEAVILY on him being lightning fast and agile. Post Layoff he was fast but not as fast as before. Are you trying to tell me Ali was the same? Come on man, all you have to do is watch the fights. It's simply unreal for you to claim that, just by watching him fight you can see that. Prime Ali beats Frazier more convincingly but Frazier is a bull, he would always give Ali a good fight.

Hi Obama, yep I'd agree..............most fighters have a 1-3 year athletic prime. Most of the greats including Ali, Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Leonard, Holmes, Hatton, Tyson, all have primes of around this time. That said many do achieve amazing things and put in terrific performances many years post prime like Foreman, Moore, Hopkins, Duran as well as some of the above guys.

I totally see the argument for a fighter gaining ring smarts post prime which can lead to him beating a guy that he wouldn't previously have beaten when in his prime, but I think this can only be reserved for some of the true legends of the sport. It happens fairly rarely to be honest.

As for Ali vs Frazier. Yes Ali was only 29, and these days that is prime or even pre prime for a heavyweight. But from the turn of the century through till the mid 70s a guy over thirty was often considered a bit old or past it, think Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Charles. Walcott was considered ancient at 37! Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Ali, Frazier all entered world class in their early 20s and were considered post prime in their early 30s. It was reflected in their performances and in the opinions of experts.

Likewise, when Ali came back, if you watch the Quarry and Bonavena fights he was clearly not what he was. He danced three rounds with Quarry and admitted in his biography that he felt exhausted afterwards.....it wasn't even a hard three rounds! He fought Bonavena largely flat footed and got hit a fair bit, a far cry from the fifteen rounds he spent with either Chuvalo or Terrell.

Frazier would have given a prime Ali alot to think about, no two ways about it.....but Ali was so damn mobile and hard to hit that I honestly cant see Frazier actually winning. Frazier would be chasing the ring down just like in their second fight, being hit 4 times or so to his one. The only reason the Thrilla in Manilla was so close was because Ali didn't dance..........same with the 1971 fight.

I'd be very suprised if anyone is prepared to watch Ali vs Frazier 2 and still think Frazier would have beaten the prime Ali. Granted they were both a touch post prime in 1974, but it showcases how Frazier would have tried to deal with a mobile, dancing Ali.........and he wouldn't have faired too well in my opinion.

Oh.....and the Barrera that lost to Pacquiou was a touch post prime IMO, I'd have said Barrera's prime was 1999-2002, these years included the first Moralles fight and the Hamed fight among others.

Ali had a style which relied HEAVILY on him being lightning fast and agile. Post Layoff he was fast but not as fast as before. Are you trying to tell me Ali was the same? Come on man, all you have to do is watch the fights. It's simply unreal for you to claim that, just by watching him fight you can see that. Prime Ali beats Frazier more convincingly but Frazier is a bull, he would always give Ali a good fight.

No, I'm not trying to tell you he was the same physically, I'm just trying to tell you he was prime. Bernard Hopkins was prime up to his very late 30s. He was physically peaked early 30s. When athletic ability goes down a tad, and boxing skills go up, you can remain in your prime. Prime is a balance of the two. When you're green your athletic ability is peak, but your skills aren't nearly there yet so you aren't prime. When you're a tad post prime your boxing skills are peak, but your athletic ability is severely diminished.

Hi Obama, yep I'd agree..............most fighters have a 1-3 year athletic prime. Most of the greats including Ali, Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Leonard, Holmes, Hatton, Tyson, all have primes of around this time. That said many do achieve amazing things and put in terrific performances many years post prime like Foreman, Moore, Hopkins, Duran as well as some of the above guys.

I totally see the argument for a fighter gaining ring smarts post prime which can lead to him beating a guy that he wouldn't previously have beaten when in his prime, but I think this can only be reserved for some of the true legends of the sport. It happens fairly rarely to be honest.

As for Ali vs Frazier. Yes Ali was only 29, and these days that is prime or even pre prime for a heavyweight. But from the turn of the century through till the mid 70s a guy over thirty was often considered a bit old or past it, think Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Charles. Walcott was considered ancient at 37! Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Ali, Frazier all entered world class in their early 20s and were considered post prime in their early 30s. It was reflected in their performances and in the opinions of experts.

Likewise, when Ali came back, if you watch the Quarry and Bonavena fights he was clearly not what he was. He danced three rounds with Quarry and admitted in his biography that he felt exhausted afterwards.....it wasn't even a hard three rounds! He fought Bonavena largely flat footed and got hit a fair bit, a far cry from the fifteen rounds he spent with either Chuvalo or Terrell.

Frazier would have given a prime Ali alot to think about, no two ways about it.....but Ali was so damn mobile and hard to hit that I honestly cant see Frazier actually winning. Frazier would be chasing the ring down just like in their second fight, being hit 4 times or so to his one. The only reason the Thrilla in Manilla was so close was because Ali didn't dance..........same with the 1971 fight.

I'd be very suprised if anyone is prepared to watch Ali vs Frazier 2 and still think Frazier would have beaten the prime Ali. Granted they were both a touch post prime in 1974, but it showcases how Frazier would have tried to deal with a mobile, dancing Ali.........and he wouldn't have faired too well in my opinion.

Oh.....and the Barrera that lost to Pacquiou was a touch post prime IMO, I'd have said Barrera's prime was 1999-2002, these years included the first Moralles fight and the Hamed fight among others.

Good arguments, and at least you are consistent with Barrera.

As for Ali vs Frazier II, that victory is tainted. The level of disgraceful holding Ali did would not be seen in a historically significant fight again till Hatton vs Tszyu. :boxing:

Also, I chalk up the Bonavena and Quarry performances to ring rust and lack of concern for the opposition. They were merely tune ups. If Mayweather doesn't beat the pants off Marquez next month, will you be telling me he is past his prime?

As far as I'm concerned when a fighter's reflexes and his legs start to slide then he's past-prime.....and NO, Hopkins was NOT prime into his late 30s.

Poet

As the resident Philadelphian here I'm proclaiming myself as the expert on Hopkins prime:

'97 - '03

:boxing:

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter


pretty simple really

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter


pretty simple really

Good post. Ali relied heavily on his speed/reflexes, he wasn't a dumb fighter like you're trying to make out pre-layoff, still a very smart fighter, its just he got smarter post lay-off because he had more fights. He wasn't the same fighter post lay-off every boxing historian will tell you that.

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter

pretty simple really

Bingo! Thread closed :boxing:

Poet

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter


pretty simple really


Excellent post that pretty much ends this debate.

norton for me

When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ? ive been watching a lot of Ali the last few days trying to work out when exactly he started to slide.

I think it was around the time he lost to Norton and labored against Lyle, Bugner 2 but i believe the Wepner fight might have taken a lot out of him, although he did not take much if any punishment in the fight it was a grueling pace for him, i think he dropped down to the canvas at the end of the fight through tiredness if i remember right.

Lyle was arguably infront in the fight, although i had it a draw at the time of the stoppage.


I thought his balance looked horrible against Bugner 2 and that is usually an indication of a fighter who is on the slide. If you disagree with me then im sure you'd agree that if Ali was not on the slide before Frazier fight he certainly was after it.

Then came the 3rd Frazier fight.

Since the 1st Frazier fight Ali had looked decent/good against Ellis without looking spectacular, he put in a poor performance against Mathis in a dull fight, he beat Blin but not really worth mentioning besides the fact he scored a stoppage, he had what i believe was an impressive performance against a tough Chuvalo whom put more pressure on him this time and had a little more success, then he fought Quarry and i thought Ali looked in great form for this fight, he beat Quarry with ease. Patterson actually won a few early rounds but i think Ali was playing with him because he knew eventually the extra size would take its toll, same story with Bob Foster really, he won a few rounds with the jab but once Ali established his size advantage he put Foster down multiple times. I thought Ali looked excellent against Joe Bugner 1 and then came the loss to Norton which is somewhat surprising to me because of how good i thought Ali looked against Bugner.

I know Ali still went on to beat ,Frazier, Shavers, Norton again but i think that is mark of how good he was more so than how much he had left. Most people have their reservations about whether he won the Norton 3 fight to (not me)

So when do you think Muhammad Ali start to slide, he does not necessarily have to be shot but you get where im coming from :boxing:
Muhammad started to slide March 9th 1971

He wasn't the same after the layoff.