When Muhammad Ali refused induction into the Army in 1967 and was stripped of his Title there were many prople who believed he would never fight again.

If Ali had never fought again after his fight with Zora Folley in 1967,where do you believe he would be ranked today?

Still pretty highly, he'd have plenty of defenders of his unbeaten record, the fact that he had only been down twice up to this point and his sheer speed and form in 1966/67. He would have far more doubters though and Louis would top rather more ATG top tens.

If Mike Tyson didn't return after his rape conviction, he would...........I'm sure be rather more immortalised. Alot of modern fight fans seem unimpressed with Mike because of the Holyfield and Lewis fights. He was past prime in 1991, let alone 1996-2002. If he hadn't come back some folks may have been more inclined to watch his peak form and admire the considerable skills he had.

Still pretty highly, he'd have plenty of defenders of his unbeaten record, the fact that he had only been down twice up to this point and his sheer speed and form in 1966/67. He would have far more doubters though and Louis would top rather more ATG top tens.

If Mike Tyson didn't return after his rape conviction, he would...........I'm sure be rather more immortalised. Alot of modern fight fans seem unimpressed with Mike because of the Holyfield and Lewis fights. He was past prime in 1991, let alone 1996-2002. If he hadn't come back some folks may have been more inclined to watch his peak form and admire the considerable skills he had.

I agree with you.Prime Tyson is my #2 Heavyweight of all-time.I see Tyson fighting Ali 3 times and Mike winning the 1st bout,and Ali the rematch and rubber match.I believe all 3 fights are very close.

Tyson's fights after his jail time should not even enter into the discussion when talking about fighters in there prime.

I also agree with your take on Ali.

The peak Ali, Tyson and Holmes for me are heavyweight perfection.

I love Louis, Foreman, Liston, Bowe, Tunney, Holyfield, Dempsey, Lewis and Johnson too, but those three stand alone.

Good topic idea though Boxingbuff. I suppose the post prime Ali showed more chin, grit, guile and heart as his skills slowly eroded. Real old timer qualities, but peak Ali was art.

Not as highly. His wins over Liston would be easy to diminish (fix, past it, quitter, overrated) and other than that he didn't really have many great wins during his first reign.

The Terrell win, Ali's second best at the time, is underrated now but critics could point out that he was overhyped since he lost to Spencer and Ramos afterwards.

Patterson injured his back, Chuvalo was a journeyman coming off a loss, D. Jones was a robbery, Williams was (literally) shot, Folley was washed up, Moore was a 50 year old man, London, Mildenberger and Cooper were European level opposition. I imagine this is how people would pick apart his resume.

Add Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, Bugner and Ellis to that and it's tough to argue against, although some try.

Not as highly. His wins over Liston would be easy to diminish (fix, past it, quitter, overrated) and other than that he didn't really have many great wins during his first reign.

The Terrell win, Ali's second best at the time, is underrated now but critics could point out that he was overhyped since he lost to Spencer and Ramos afterwards.

Patterson injured his back, Chuvalo was a journeyman coming off a loss, D. Jones was a robbery, Williams was (literally) shot, Folley was washed up, Moore was a 50 year old man, London, Mildenberger and Cooper were European level opposition. I imagine this is how people would pick apart his resume.

Add Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, Bugner and Ellis to that and it's tough to argue against, although some try.

Well said. I'd add that he ducked Harold Johnson. :boxing:

Then we'd be in the same situation as we are with Tyson. We would never know how good Ali really was or could have been because he would have never been tested against a great fighter (excluding Liston).

Same thing with Tyson, he was never tested, it's hard to say how good he was. He looked great beating OK fighters, very exciting to watch. But we will never know what he could have done.

Hi Merseysideblood, great signatures. I met Earnie Shavers a few years ago and had a good chat. Very nice guy and a true inspiration, he was kind enough to let me have the one copy of his own biography he was travelling with for PR purposes! Great man. I gather he is based in Merseyside or was for a while.....I hope he is doing well.

Anyway back on topic sometimes the only way to measure some of the great's title reigns is by how supreme they were over what there was to face at the time. I didn't rate Dempsey's title challengers bar Firpo.....and of course Tunney (who beat him post prime), I thought Louis fought many guys below his level until the late 40s when he too was post prime, Marciano fought post prime ex champs and and a blown up light heavy. Ali simply fought what there was and beat what there was in his prime........often convincingly and artistically. Tyson too!

I dont mean the above comments to be in anyway derogatory, a champ can only face what is around at the time and Harry Wills aside the legends above fought the best around in their prime and thats all you can ask of them. Their utter dominance or lack of ATG competition shouldn't always be a reason for doubting their legendary status.

Some guys like Holmes and Holyfield deserve special mention too for their resumes. Real warriors who fought everyone.

As for Ali, critics could probably have a go at his title defenses in the 60s but they were the best guys around, the guys that the public were shouting for and most were completely dominated. He would be top ten on most heavyweight ATG lists even without the 70s.

Hi Merseysideblood, great signatures. I met Earnie Shavers a few years ago and had a good chat. Very nice guy and a true inspiration, he was kind enough to let me have the one copy of his own biography he was travelling with for PR purposes! Great man. I gather he is based in Merseyside or was for a while.....I hope he is doing well.



He actually lives on my street lol I keep saying this on other threads but it's weird. He's lived here for years now and I have not once dared to speak to him. He's married to my friends Aunt, she said she'd introduce me to him but I haven't seen her for a few months now.

Hi Merseysideblood, great signatures. I met Earnie Shavers a few years ago and had a good chat. Very nice guy and a true inspiration, he was kind enough to let me have the one copy of his own biography he was travelling with for PR purposes! Great man. I gather he is based in Merseyside or was for a while.....I hope he is doing well.

Anyway back on topic sometimes the only way to measure some of the great's title reigns is by how supreme they were over what there was to face at the time. I didn't rate Dempsey's title challengers bar Firpo.....and of course Tunney (who beat him post prime), I thought Louis fought many guys below his level until the late 40s when he too was post prime, Marciano fought post prime ex champs and and a blown up light heavy. Ali simply fought what there was and beat what there was in his prime........often convincingly and artistically. Tyson too!

I dont mean the above comments to be in anyway derogatory, a champ can only face what is around at the time and Harry Wills aside the legends above fought the best around in their prime and thats all you can ask of them. Their utter dominance or lack of ATG competition shouldn't always be a reason for doubting their legendary status.

Some guys like Holmes and Holyfield deserve special mention too for their resumes. Real warriors who fought everyone.

As for Ali, critics could probably have a go at his title defenses in the 60s but they were the best guys around, the guys that the public were shouting for and most were completely dominated. He would be top ten on most heavyweight ATG lists even without the 70s.

I'm not really sure if Ali's first title reign is any better than Marciano's or Louis's (certainly not as good as Louis').

The only title defenses that the public truly demanded were against Ernie Terrell and Floyd Patterson, and I'm not sure if that's any better than facing Walcott, Charles, LaStarza and Moore or Schmeling, Farr, J.H. Lewis, Pastor, Conn, Nova, etc.

Henry Cooper, Karl Mildenberger, Brian London and yes, George Chuvalo (the man was coming off a loss to Eduardo Corletti) were surely not any better than many of the "bums" of the month.

Ali would probably be rated top 10 still mostly due to his talent and skill but at the time there weren't many who would have. By 1967 Joe Frazier, Jimmy Ellis, Jerry Quarry and Oscar Bonavena were all top 5 so there would have been questions about how he would have done against them if not for an early retirement.

Quite right GreatA, the purpose of my argument was to illustrate that to be honest no one's title reign was all that prestigious based on title defenses. Frankly Ali would have been better off fighting Frazier, Ellis and Quarry in 1968while he was still prime and before they all peaked. We of course would have missed the true glory of the Frazier fights in the 70s. Ali always had the beating of Ellis and Quarry though.

Hi Merseysideblood, funny that about Ernie Shavers, I found him very accessible, chatty, willing to talk about Ali, Holmes etc. He isn't as huge as he was at his peak, he did alot of weights then. I think that a fan like yourself would really enjoy meeting him. He'll tell you that he'd destroy Lennox Lewis in his prime though, a big fan like yourself might need to be prepared to hear that, ha ha.

Quite right GreatA, the purpose of my argument was to illustrate that to be honest no one's title reign was all that prestigious based on title defenses. Frankly Ali would have been better off fighting Frazier, Ellis and Quarry in 1968while he was still prime and before they all peaked. We of course would have missed the true glory of the Frazier fights in the 70s. Ali always had the beating of Ellis and Quarry though.

If those fights never happened though, and Ali did retire for good in 1967, then I would imagine that there would be a lot of questions about how Ali could have done against them.

Lets look at it this way, at the time Ali retired he had wins over Liston, Terrell, Patterson, Folley, Chuvalo...

Quarry would go onto have wins over Lyle, Shavers, Patterson, Foster, Spencer...

Ellis beat Quarry, Bonavena, Patterson, Chuvalo, Martin...

Frazier defeated Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Bugner, Machen...

Not a big difference resume-wise.

I agree with you.Prime Tyson is my #2 Heavyweight of all-time.I see Tyson fighting Ali 3 times and Mike winning the 1st bout,and Ali the rematch and rubber match.I believe all 3 fights are very close.

Tyson's fights after his jail time should not even enter into the discussion when talking about fighters in there prime.

I also agree with your take on Ali.

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

I think you rocks in head. Ali not prime with Freizer. Tyson more splotion less disssplin' than Freizer. Tyson trubled by Boster Duglaz. I think Ali KO Tyson and Tyson eat own chiltrin.

Poet

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

Frazier posed entirely different stylistical problems for Ali than Tyson would.

Ali always beat Frazier to a pulp in the early rounds but it's the relentless pressure and body punching that got to him in the mid/late rounds. Tyson however is known to slow down as the fight goes on and doesn't put on consistent, relentless pressure, forcing Ali to fight on the inside like Frazier did.

I think a prime Tyson KO prime Ali. Ali have serius trabeled with Freizer, and Mike is similar than Joe but with more power and a lot more splotion. And Ali have trubeled with the left cross. I think Tyson KO Ali

Who the hell left the damn door open?

Poet

Hi GreatA,

Quote:
'If those fights never happened though, and Ali did retire for good in 1967, then I would imagine that there would be a lot of questions about how Ali could have done against them.

Lets look at it this way, at the time Ali retired he had wins over Liston, Terrell, Patterson, Folley, Chuvalo...

Quarry would go onto have wins over Lyle, Shavers, Patterson, Foster, Spencer...

Ellis beat Quarry, Bonavena, Patterson, Chuvalo, Martin...

Frazier defeated Ellis, Quarry, Bonavena, Chuvalo, Bugner, Machen...

Not a big difference resume-wise.'



Very fair point ('resume wise'), but its often the manner of the victories too. I dont want to take each guy and his victories in turn, but some of the wins above were controversial (Patterson was judged to be unlucky against Quarry and Ellis). Some were really close struggles (Frazier vs Quarry/Bonavena/Bugner). Granted Quarry smashed Shavers, but that could have gone either way! Frazier was easily the best of the bunch but he wasn't too much better, these guys were fairly close in ability.

Whereas Ali rarely lost rounds in his prime (1966 / 1967 ) and was much ahead of his competition. It is obvious from the films of Terrell, Williams and Folley that the guy was in another league.

Ali surely would have been the big bookies favorite were any of these matches made in 1968. Remember Frazier's ATG ranking surely will have come from his fights with Ali (not from Quarry, Ellis or Bonavena who are hardly ATGs and were fairly competitive with him). Without Ali, Frazier may well have run into Foreman a year or so earlier and where would he have gone from there? Foreman would no doubt have battered him another one or two times in the 70s and stayed champ until meeting Young in 77 if there was no Zaire fight with Ali.

Frazier posed entirely different stylistical problems for Ali than Tyson would.

Ali always beat Frazier to a pulp in the early rounds but it's the relentless pressure and body punching that got to him in the mid/late rounds. Tyson however is known to slow down as the fight goes on and doesn't put on consistent, relentless pressure, forcing Ali to fight on the inside like Frazier did.

Not only that, it was an even fight on the cards after 10 rounds: 5-4-1 Ali, 5-5 Even, and 3-7 Frazier; most ringside observers had Ali up 6-4 at the time and Frazier took an incredible beating few fighters could endure and kept coming. Frazier then took 4 out of the last 5 rounds. Now, Frazier could do that with his incredible conditioning and stamina. How on Earth is Tyson, who gasses after 6 and decellerates rapidly from then on, going to take 4 out of rounds 11 through 15? It defies belief and makes me wonder if people are even capable of thinking analytically instead of just rooting for their guy.

Poet

Well said. I'd add that he ducked Harold Johnson. :boxing:
When was Ali meant to have ducked Harold Johnson?

I think you rocks in head. Ali not prime with Freizer. Tyson more splotion less disssplin' than Freizer. Tyson trubled by Boster Duglaz. I think Ali KO Tyson and Tyson eat own chiltrin.

Poet

...........lol

Very fair point ('resume wise'), but its often the manner of the victories too. I dont want to take each guy and his victories in turn, but some of the wins above were controversial (Patterson was judged to be unlucky against Quarry and Ellis). Some were really close struggles (Frazier vs Quarry/Bonavena/Bugner). Granted Quarry smashed Shavers, but that could have gone either way! Frazier was easily the best of the bunch but he wasn't too much better, these guys were fairly close in ability.

Whereas Ali rarely lost rounds in his prime (1966 / 1967 ) and was much ahead of his competition. It is obvious from the films of Terrell, Williams and Folley that the guy was in another league.

Ali surely would have been the big bookies favorite were any of these matches made in 1968. Remember Frazier's ATG ranking surely will have come from his fights with Ali (not from Quarry, Ellis or Bonavena who are hardly ATGs and were fairly competitive with him). Without Ali, Frazier may well have run into Foreman a year or so earlier and where would he have gone from there? Foreman would no doubt have battered him another one or two times in the 70s and stayed champ until meeting Young in 77 if there was no Zaire fight with Ali.

Then again Ali's struggles with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper are brought up to this date. You could also point out to the Mildenberger fight in which Ali was tagged fairly often, and the Chuvalo fight in which Ali took a trendemous body beating despite dominating on the cards.

The Williams-Terrell-Folley fights surely represent his prime (or as close to it as it got) but you could argue that two of them were washed up and one of them was overrated, making him look better than he was.

"He never fought a prime contender like Frazier, Ellis and Quarry."

The Frazier-Foreman fight was actually supposed to happen in 1971, atleast according to Foreman's management, but Ali was given his shot first.

Foreman was given 2 years to develop his skills while Frazier practically took 2 years off, resulting in what was basically a mismatch in 1973. I would imagine that a FOTC conditioned Frazier against a young, raw 1971 Foreman who fought Peralta would be a lot closer than the beatdown in Kingston, Jamaica.

Hi Merseysideblood, funny that about Ernie Shavers, I found him very accessible, chatty, willing to talk about Ali, Holmes etc. He isn't as huge as he was at his peak, he did alot of weights then. I think that a fan like yourself would really enjoy meeting him. He'll tell you that he'd destroy Lennox Lewis in his prime though, a big fan like yourself might need to be prepared to hear that, ha ha.

I'd knock him out if he said that... lol!

I wouldn't disagree with him. I honestly think he'd kill me if he hit me.

Hi Poet, each in turn:

Quote:
'Not only that, it was an even fight on the cards after 10 rounds: 5-4-1 Ali, 5-5 Even, and 3-7 Frazier; most ringside observers had Ali up 6-4 at the time and Frazier took an incredible beating few fighters could endure and kept coming. Frazier then took 4 out of the last 5 rounds. Now, Frazier could do that with his incredible conditioning and stamina. How on Earth is Tyson, who gasses after 6 and decellerates rapidly from then on, going to take 4 out of rounds 11 through 15? It defies belief and makes me wonder if people are even capable of thinking analytically instead of just rooting for their guy.'


Very quick analytical answer, Tyson starts super fast and throws much more punches in the first five rounds of a contest than Frazier. Where as Frazier starts slow and throws lots more punches in the last five rounds of a fight than Tyson! Hee hee. Funny but true. I watched the first few rounds of Ali vs Frazier 1 last night and through rounds one to five Frazier was nowhere near as lively as Tyson, he only seemed to throw something like 10 punches in the first round at Ali! Granted the fight was level after ten.........then Frazier got special bless him!

Honestly, I didn't think the peak Tyson was gassy after six rounds. He seemed lively enough against Tillis, Ribalta, Greene, Tucker and Ruddock throughout. The Bonecrusher fight seemed to start this rumour (due to all the frigging holding by Mr Smith) and critics seemed to latch onto it after the Douglas fight (where Tyson was like a man walking through treacle even in round 1.....not the Tyson anyone knew!).

Also Tyson only once prepared for a 15 round fight (Biggs). There is a subtle and fair distance between this and the 12 rounds Tyson usually prepared for.
But I agree Poet, were Tyson to have met Ali over 15 rounds......I'd favour that Ali would take the late rounds.

Hi Poet, each in turn:

Very quick analytical answer, Tyson starts super fast and throws much more punches in the first five rounds of a contest than Frazier. Where as Frazier starts slow and throws lots more punches in the last five rounds of a fight than Tyson! Hee hee. Funny but true. I watched the first few rounds of Ali vs Frazier 1 last night and through rounds one to five Frazier was nowhere near as lively as Tyson, he only seemed to throw something like 10 punches in the first round at Ali! Granted the fight was level after ten.........then Frazier got special bless him!

The only problem with that is the early rounds are when the post-prime Ali was the LEAST hittable :) Ali used plenty of movement early against Frazier and beat him up pretty bad. He couldn't do that for 15 rounds anymore though: He simply didn't have the legs he once had hence his resting on the ropes frequently from the middle rounds on.

Honestly, I didn't think the peak Tyson was gassy after six rounds. He seemed lively enough against Tillis, Ribalta, Greene, Tucker and Ruddock throughout. The Bonecrusher fight seemed to start this rumour (due to all the frigging holding by Mr Smith) and critics seemed to latch onto it after the Douglas fight (where Tyson was like a man walking through treacle even in round 1.....not the Tyson anyone knew!).

Also Tyson only once prepared for a 15 round fight (Biggs). There is a subtle and fair distance between this and the 12 rounds Tyson usually prepared for.
But I agree Poet, were Tyson to have met Ali over 15 rounds......I'd favour that Ali would take the late rounds.

Actually I don't count the Smith fight in that equation. Impossible to tell against an opponent not interested in doing anything other than hugging. I've watched the Tillis fight recently and Tyson did indeed decelerate sharply after 6 but by that point Tillis was more concerned about survival than taking advantage of it. He also slowed considerably in the Tucker fight. The Greene and Ribalta fights I haven't watched in a while so they aren't something I can really make intelligent comments about at the moment. With Rudduck, both fighters slowed considerably over the second half but at least in that fight the case can be made that it was a natural result of a pretty hard fought war. BTW, even a number Tyson fans admit he slowed down noticably in his distance fights, although they usually attribute that to his burning up on offense early and maybe they have a point: If you treat the 500 meter like a sprint then you're going to lag like hell in the final laps.

Poet

Hi GreatA, good read that:

Quote:
'Then again Ali's struggles with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper are brought up to this date. You could also point out to the Mildenberger fight in which Ali was tagged fairly often, and the Chuvalo fight in which Ali took a trendemous body beating despite dominating on the cards.'


I never felt the 1963 Clay that faced Jones and Cooper was anything near the finished product. Some thought Jones was unlucky with the decision but I didn't think it was that close (its on You tube). The Cooper rematch was fairly routine in 1966 though. I may rewatch the Mildenberger fight, when I first watched it I just felt it was an awkward southpaw getting on Ali's nerves before being outboxed and clearly stopped. Maybe he did better than I remember. As for Chuvalo, you've got to admit Ali deliberately let him bang his body in shows of bravado. It was a good old whooping in every other way!



'The Williams-Terrell-Folley fights surely represent his prime (or as close to it as it got) but you could argue that two of them were washed up and one of them was overrated, making him look better than he was.'



Still they got their chances on merit and Ali dazzled. Would Ellis or Frazier have been that dominant over these foes in the late 60s? Doubt it! It took real balls to dance the way Ali did against Williams, who still had quick hands and a lethal punch. The fight looked choreographed such was Ali's dominance.



"He never fought a prime contender like Frazier, Ellis and Quarry."


True, but would the boxing press have considered these little guys prime contenders in 1968? Terrell was huge and considered a real threat by some pundits. They would all be large underdogs in 1968, Ali would get some credit for Frazier (Olympic gold medal winner!), but not Quarry or Ellis.


'The Frazier-Foreman fight was actually supposed to happen in 1971, atleast according to Foreman's management, but Ali was given his shot first. Foreman was given 2 years to develop his skills while Frazier practically took 2 years off, resulting in what was basically a mismatch in 1973. I would imagine that a FOTC conditioned Frazier against a young, raw 1971 Foreman who fought Peralta would be a lot closer than the beatdown in Kingston, Jamaica.'



Yes agreed, I would still favour a 1971 Foreman, but it wouldn't be anything like the 1973 match.

Hi Poet, I agree with much of what you say in your last post. I'm not one who picks a prime Tyson over a prime Ali. My comparisions with Frazier and Tyson are purely observational.

Maybe its just me but I didn't think Tyson lagged too much in the Tucker fight, he certainly finished the last few rounds all guns blazing. The same with Ruddock 2. Perhaps Tyson was a better distance finisher than we give him credit for and that it was only really the mid rounds where he slowed a touch, it wasn't too glaring, I'm thinking Biggs, Thomas, Ruddock 1.

Never mind, different fighters had different qualities.

I never felt the 1963 Clay that faced Jones and Cooper was anything near the finished product. Some thought Jones was unlucky with the decision but I didn't think it was that close (its on You tube). The Cooper rematch was fairly routine in 1966 though. I may rewatch the Mildenberger fight, when I first watched it I just felt it was an awkward southpaw getting on Ali's nerves before being outboxed and clearly stopped. Maybe he did better than I remember. As for Chuvalo, you've got to admit Ali deliberately let him bang his body in shows of bravado. It was a good old whooping in every other way!

I don't Ali was at his best against Jones and Cooper but it's mostly because he didn't take them seriously and didn't fight to the best of his abilities. The Liston fight was just months after he had been knocked down by Cooper and he looked brilliant in that fight.

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You can see that Ali turned it up a notch right after he was knocked down. Cooper with all his flaws did have an awesome left hook.


Still they got their chances on merit and Ali dazzled. Would Ellis or Frazier have been that dominant over these foes in the late 60s? Doubt it! It took real balls to dance the way Ali did against Williams, who still had quick hands and a lethal punch. The fight looked choreographed such was Ali's dominance.

In my opinion just about anybody could have knocked over the Williams Ali fought. It's a near miracle that he was even in the ring that night, just a year before the man weighed a starved 140 pounds and had been proclaimed dead three times in the operating table!

Folley was a clever boxer who was avoided by most but by 1967 he was all but used up. He lost to the very average Brian London not long after Ali beat him.

True, but would the boxing press have considered these little guys prime contenders in 1968? Terrell was huge and considered a real threat by some pundits. They would all be large underdogs in 1968, Ali would get some credit for Frazier (Olympic gold medal winner!), but not Quarry or Ellis.

Terrell was a very good fighter, underrated these days, but in his next fights after Ali he lost to Thad Spencer, who for a while considered the next coming of Joe Louis, until Quarry put a boxing clinic on him in his career best performance. He also lost to Manuel Ramos whom Frazier crushed in two rounds.

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Terrell was not really a huge heavyweight either in size, he was very tall and had a long reach but only weighed around 200-210 pounds because of his matchstick legs.

Frazier had smashed George Chuvalo in four rounds and picked apart the Ali imitator Buster Mathis in impressive fashion. I'd say that he would have been considered Ali's greatest challenge yet had they fought in 1967-1968.

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Yes agreed, I would still favour a 1971 Foreman, but it wouldn't be anything like the 1973 match.

Frazier's best chance would be in the later rounds, providing he ever gets there. Foreman ran out of gas against Peralta and became quite hittable, not that he ever wasn't, but even more so than usual.

I think Ali would have become a legend that people remembered even better than they do now. It would have been very similar to how Tyson is remembered, except better because of Ali's competition.

We also would have been robbed of seeing what made Ali so great: not the speed, not the skill, but the heart and incredible will to win.

Not as highly. His wins over Liston would be easy to diminish (fix, past it, quitter, overrated) and other than that he didn't really have many great wins during his first reign.

The Terrell win, Ali's second best at the time, is underrated now but critics could point out that he was overhyped since he lost to Spencer and Ramos afterwards.

Patterson injured his back, Chuvalo was a journeyman coming off a loss, D. Jones was a robbery, Williams was (literally) shot, Folley was washed up, Moore was a 50 year old man, London, Mildenberger and Cooper were European level opposition. I imagine this is how people would pick apart his resume.

Add Foreman, Frazier, Norton, Bonavena, Quarry, Shavers, Lyle, Bugner and Ellis to that and it's tough to argue against, although some try.

I would argue back that Jones was before his prime(66/57),and besides I scored the fight 6-4 for Clay coming on strong the last 2 rounds like a champion.

Williams-I would argue that it is not like he got off the operating table to fight Ali.He had time to rehab and recover.He then had 4 fights before fighting Ali,winning all four easily.He then trained "the hardest" he ever trained for a fight in his career to fight Ali.Looking at that fight do you think a prime Williams beats Ali?

Liston-Sonny was menacing and said to be invincible and unbeatable before the fight.Remember Clay beat him EASY,not like it was a close fight.Sonny was tired,bewildered,beaten,humiliated,and embarresed.And Clay was fresh and ready for the kill.He undoubtably would keep beating Liston worse and win a lopsided UD,or by a TKO.

Yes,Liston threw the 2nd fight....Everybody knows this.But people began trying to transfer the 2nd fight to the 1st fight,saying he threw the 1st fight also.Look at the film of the 1st fight again I argue.The sling Sonny wore after the 1st fight for "one day" was not worn the next day after the fight when he flew home.Truth is Sonny was whipped,tired,dejected,and it would have only got worse.

Terrell-It's not like it was a real threat.Ali won 13 rounds! A one sided whipping boy for Ali.

Same goes for Chuvalo-Ali won 13 rounds!

That's how I would argue against those trying to diminish Ali's 1st reighn.

Ali's 2nd tenture against Frazier,Forman etc. etc. After a 4 year lay-off do validate his 1st reighn,this is true.

I imagine Ali would be ranked in the top 5 Heavyweights of all-time,but not Thee Greatest.

I wasn't entirely serious with my statements, my point was to show how one could pick apart Ali's pre-comeback resume.

I would argue back that Jones was before his prime(66/57),and besides I scored the fight 6-4 for Clay coming on strong the last 2 rounds like a champion.

Ali/Clay won the fight fair but he certainly had a lot of trouble doing it. Some even score the fight for Jones although I myself wouldn't.

Doug Jones was a good fighter but he was basically a light heavyweight contender, not even a Billy Conn.

Ali may not have been at his peak but not long after he outboxed Sonny Liston in one of his best performances.

Williams-I would argue that it is not like he got off the operating table to fight Ali.He had time to rehab and recover.He then had 4 fights before fighting Ali,winning all four easily.He then trained "the hardest" he ever trained for a fight in his career to fight Ali.Looking at that fight do you think a prime Williams beats Ali?

Williams did not win his comeback fights easily and the opposition he faced were journeymen. Against Mel Turnbrow, he was knocked down and won a close decision. Against Sonny Moore, he received a very unpopular decision.

In his prime he may have been a handful for Ali. He had very quick hands and terrific punching power. Only a somewhat weak jaw let him down in his battles with Sonny Liston.

Liston-Sonny was menacing and said to be invincible and unbeatable before the fight.Remember Clay beat him EASY,not like it was a close fight.Sonny was tired,bewildered,beaten,humiliated,and embarresed.And Clay was fresh and ready for the kill.He undoubtably would keep beating Liston worse and win a lopsided UD,or by a TKO.

It was actually a close fight. The fight was even on the scorecards and Clay even threatened to quit at one point when some unknown substance went into his eye. Ali/Clay had the fight in control most of the way however and gave a tired/injured Liston a beating in the 6th, forcing him to retire.

He wouldn't be ranked as high as he is today but I'd still consider him an ATG.

I wasn't entirely serious with my statements, my point was to show how one could pick apart Ali's pre-comeback resume.



Ali/Clay won the fight fair but he certainly had a lot of trouble doing it. Some even score the fight for Jones although I myself wouldn't.

Doug Jones was a good fighter but he was basically a light heavyweight contender, not even a Billy Conn.

Ali may not have been at his peak but not long after he outboxed Sonny Liston in one of his best performances.



Williams did not win his comeback fights easily and the opposition he faced were journeymen. Against Mel Turnbrow, he was knocked down and won a close decision. Against Sonny Moore, he received a very unpopular decision.

In his prime he may have been a handful for Ali. He had very quick hands and terrific punching power. Only a somewhat weak jaw let him down in his battles with Sonny Liston.



It was actually a close fight. The fight was even on the scorecards and Clay even threatened to quit at one point when some unknown substance went into his eye. Ali/Clay had the fight in control most of the way however and gave a tired/injured Liston a beating in the 6th, forcing him to retire.

The Clay-Liston fight was close on the "scorecards" but Clay was in control of the fight.Just Like the 1st Ali-Frazier fight was close on the "scorecards" after 10 rounds,but Frazier was in control of the fight.You know what I mean? It was not a hard fight for Clay was it?

Yes I know Clay told Dundee to "cut off the gloves" after round four when he had that hot ointment in his eyes.He really believed it was the "White Man" that wanted him beaten.He even thought Dundee put something in the water,that water with ointment in it that got in his eyes.Geeeeezzz,would you want to fight big bad invincable,unbeatable Sonny Liston with not being able to see? Lol

I agree Williams in his Prime would be a hand full for almost every Heavyweight Champion in history.He had a murderous left hook! He also had power in his right hand.His two fights with Sonny Liston were both brutal affairs! However,Ali always had a easy time with Big Hard punchers,Forman and Liston..Against Shavers he was a shell of his former self.But Ali would beat Liston and Williams every day and twice on Sunday's.

I'm VERY bad and slow at typing.My spelling is also very bad.So I will post the rest of this post at a later time.

Oh,I believe in 1967 Ali was a much better fighter than the Cassius Clay of 1963.

The Clay-Liston fight was close on the "scorecards" but Clay was in control of the fight.Just Like the 1st Ali-Frazier fight was close on the "scorecards" after 10 rounds,but Frazier was in control of the fight.You know what I mean? It was not a hard fight for Clay was it?

I'd say it was a hard fight. It was no Thrilla in Manila but Clay absorbed some solid punches in rounds 3, 4 & 5 and came back remarkably in round 6.


I agree Williams in his Prime would be a hand full for almost every Heavyweight Champion in history.He had a murderous left hook! He also had power in his right hand.His two fights with Sonny Liston were both brutal affairs! However,Ali always had a easy time with Big Hard punchers,Forman and Liston..Against Shavers he was a shell of his former self.But Ali would beat Liston and Williams every day and twice on Sunday's.

I think the key difference between Cleveland Williams and Shavers/Liston is that Williams had the handspeed and the stamina as well as his punching power to trouble boxers. Shavers was known to run out of gas and Liston was somewhat slow. Williams simply didn't have the durability to absorb Liston's best punches, much like Frazier/Norton against Foreman.

The Williams Ali fought was a statue and a punching bag.

I'm not saying that he would have won even in his prime but the fight would have likely been more competitive than the mismatch we saw.

Oh,I believe in 1967 Ali was a much better fighter than the Cassius Clay of 1963.

Agreed but I don't think the Ali who fought Jones and Cooper was necessarily much worse than the Ali who fought Liston, he was simply much more motivated and prepared to face the champion.

I'd say it was a hard fight. It was no Thrilla in Manila but Clay absorbed some solid punches in rounds 3, 4 & 5 and came back remarkably in round 6.



I think the key difference between Cleveland Williams and Shavers/Liston is that Williams had the handspeed and the stamina as well as his punching power to trouble boxers. Shavers was known to run out of gas and Liston was somewhat slow. Williams simply didn't have the durability to absorb Liston's best punches, much like Frazier/Norton against Foreman.

The Williams Ali fought was a statue and a punching bag.

I'm not saying that he would have won even in his prime but the fight would have likely been more competitive than the mismatch we saw.



Agreed but I don't think the Ali who fought Jones and Cooper was necessarily much worse than the Ali who fought Liston, he was simply much more motivated and prepared to face the champion.

Gezzzzz,I wish i could type faster and better.There is alot more i want to say in my posts,but it would take forever.Williams was not fast enough to hit Ali.Ali was the most elusive heavyweight in history,and almost impossible to hit with a clean punch.I would say Ali was the 2nd best defensive fighter in the history of the heavyweight division.

Geeeezzzz,i wish i could type faster and better.There is so much more i want to say in my posts.

BTW-What did Clay weigh against Jones?

Terrell-It's not like it was a real threat.Ali won 13 rounds! A one sided whipping boy for Ali.

And to think there's a certain poster on this forum (I'll refeer to him as "The Village Idiot") that swears up and down that Terrell was "schooling" and "exposing" Ali and got robbed. That particular "Village Idiot" doesn't need new glasses but rather a new set of Mark I eyeballs.....I have no clue what fight he was watching :rofl:

Poet

Gezzzzz,I wish i could type faster and better.There is alot more i want to say in my posts,but it would take forever.Williams was not fast enough to hit Ali.Ali was the most elusive heavyweight in history,and almost impossible to hit with a clean punch.I would say Ali was the 2nd best defensive fighter in the history of the heavyweight division.

Geeeezzzz,i wish i could type faster and better.There is so much more i want to say in my posts.

BTW-What did Clay weigh against Jones?

You can post your thoughts at a later date if you find the time to do it.

Ali was hard to hit but not impossible in my opinion. He was always open for the left hook at any point in his career and that was Cleveland Williams' best punch. He could throw three, four, five, six left hooks in quick combinations like no other heavyweight I've ever seen.

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Now compare this Williams to the one Ali fought. He didn't even let his hands go once.

Ali was only 202½ lbs against Jones but he was 201 against Cooper in 1966.

The Clay/Jones bout was a rather amusing fight.It was the first time I've ever seen a fighter given credit for having "great facial defense".Jones had a good round 1 other than that he didn't clearly win a round onwards

You can blame the likes of Jerry Izenberg for such claims of a robbery.Ali never looked impressive against cooper to my view,It's been a while since I've seen the second bout but from what I remember Ali was somewhat tentative during those early rounds

You can post your thoughts at a later date if you find the time to do it.

Ali was hard to hit but not impossible in my opinion. He was always open for the left hook at any point in his career and that was Cleveland Williams' best punch. He could throw three, four, five, six left hooks in quick combinations like no other heavyweight I've ever seen.

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Now compare this Williams to the one Ali fought. He didn't even let his hands go once.

Ali was only 202½ lbs against Jones but he was 201 against Cooper in 1966.

But Clay weighed 210lbs for Liston,his fight right after Jones and Cooper.

I watched the Clay-Jones fight last night again.....

Your correct that Clay weighed 202 1/2 lbs.

Jones weighed 188lbs,and was the #3 heavyweight contender.

Yes,Jones was a LH....But not more so than Billy Conn as you stated in an earlier post.Conn weighed in at 169lbs for Louis.The promoter was alarmed at Conn's weight,and kept it secret because he thought it would hurt the gate.

I didn't say Ali was impossible to hit.I said he was almost impossible to hit with a "clean punch" in his prime.And even Cleveland "Big cat" Williams would have found it very hard to hit Ali with a "clean punch" in Williams prime.

I watched the 1st Clay-Liston fight again last night for about the 20th time.We are going to have to agree to disagree about that fight.It was not a "hard" fight for Clay.Yes, Liston came back in the 2nd half of the 3rd round after getting pasted and cut the 1st half of the round.The only" hard round" for Clay was round five when he couldn't see.Then he took command again in round six.

If the fight had continued I can't see it being a hard fight for Clay.In fact,you can sense Sonny was running on empty,and both eyes starting to swell and the cut under the one eye.Both eyes would have been shutting as the fight wore on.It would have been even an easier fight for Clay as the rounds went on.Again,this was not a hard fight for Clay.We have to agree to disagree.

I will post about other things you said at another time.It took me 35 minutes to post this.

But Clay weighed 210lbs for Liston,his fight right after Jones and Cooper.

I watched the Clay-Jones fight last night again.....

Your correct that Clay weighed 202 1/2 lbs.

He weighed 207 against Cooper and 206 against Liston the second time.

Jones weighed 188lbs,and was the #3 heavyweight contender.

Yes,Jones was a LH....But not more so than Billy Conn as you stated in an earlier post.Conn weighed in at 169lbs for Louis.The promoter was alarmed at Conn's weight,and kept it secret because he thought it would hurt the gate.

I'm not sure if I buy the stories about Conn's weight being kept a secret. He had weighed 180+ lbs in previous heavyweight bouts.

Even if he didn't weight much, he had still proven himself a capable heavyweight by beating several the top ranked men in the division.

Not long before fighting Ali, Jones had weighed 171 against Harold Johnson in a LHW title fight. He was never truly a heavyweight, he just had enough punching power and a good enough chin to compete there.


I didn't say Ali was impossible to hit.I said he was almost impossible to hit with a "clean punch" in his prime.And even Cleveland "Big cat" Williams would have found it very hard to hit Ali with a "clean punch" in Williams prime.

Well, he was caught with a lot of clean left hooks even in his prime and as I said before, that's Cleveland Williams' best punch which he throws with great handspeed for a 6'3, 210+ lb man. The Williams Ali fought didn't even throw punches, so it's tough to judge based on that how a prime for prime fight would have gone.

I'm afraid it's difficult to give Ali much credit for the win, he himself said that the fight proved nothing despite his performance. I do think that he performed brilliantly, he just didn't have much of an opponent against him.

I watched the 1st Clay-Liston fight again last night for about the 20th time.We are going to have to agree to disagree about that fight.It was not a "hard" fight for Clay.Yes, Liston came back in the 2nd half of the 3rd round after getting pasted and cut the 1st half of the round.The only" hard round" for Clay was round five when he couldn't see.Then he took command again in round six.

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If the fight had continued I can't see it being a hard fight for Clay.In fact,you can sense Sonny was running on empty,and both eyes starting to swell and the cut under the one eye.Both eyes would have been shutting as the fight wore on.It would have been even an easier fight for Clay as the rounds went on.Again,this was not a hard fight for Clay.We have to agree to disagree.

I will post about other things you said at another time.It took me 35 minutes to post this.

I agree that Liston was spent but Liston had his moments in some of the rounds. Ali could simply take a very good punch, the likes of Patterson would have probably been knocked by some of the leather Liston threw.

He weighed 207 against Cooper and 206 against Liston the second time.



I'm not sure if I buy the stories about Conn's weight being kept a secret. He had weighed 180+ lbs in previous heavyweight bouts.

Even if he didn't weight much, he had still proven himself a capable heavyweight by beating several the top ranked men in the division.

Not long before fighting Ali, Jones had weighed 171 against Harold Johnson in a LHW title fight. He was never truly a heavyweight, he just had enough punching power and a good enough chin to compete there.



Well, he was caught with a lot of clean left hooks even in his prime and as I said before, that's Cleveland Williams' best punch which he throws with great handspeed for a 6'3, 210+ lb man. The Williams Ali fought didn't even throw punches, so it's tough to judge based on that how a prime for prime fight would have gone.

I'm afraid it's tough to give Ali much credit for the win, he himself said that the fight proved nothing despite his performance. I do think that he performed brilliantly, he just didn't have much of an opponent against him.



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I agree that Liston was spent but Liston had his moments in some of the rounds. Ali could simply take a very good punch, the likes of Patterson would have probably been knocked by some of the leather Liston threw.

Wow,you threw alot out there for a real slow typer like me.

I wouldn't say Ali got hit by "Alot" of good left hooks IN HIS PRIME.

After the 3 1/2 year lay-off Frazier hit him with "alot" of good left hooks,and some other fighters.Yes,Cooper dropped Ali with a good left hook,and Sonny Banks.But I'm not sure a 1967 Ali gets dropped by either.The Cooper rematch? Not close.Sonny banks was very early in his career.I don't see Ali getting hit with "alot" of good left hooks in his prime.Oh yes,I know that was the punch that Ali was suspectable to,and Williams had a "murderous" left hook.But prime for prime is just speculation.

You do a good job arguing(sp) against Ali if he never fought again after 1967.

And I know your just presenting what the critics would say if he never fought again after 1967.In fact,that is what they were saying about Ali's career from 1963-1967.I'm not taking what you say "personal",I'm just trying to argue Ali's point of view.Even the worst critics admitted Ali was the fastest Heavyweight of all-time.Something else I would present when arguing for Ali.I know I can't bring up Liston because his critics say Liston threw both fights.

Anyway,over time I believe Ali would be looked back upon as one of the greatest(Top 5) heavyweights of all-time.He never had a mark on his face after 9 title defenses!!

Wow,you threw alot out there for a real slow typer like me.

I wouldn't say Ali got hit by "Alot" of good left hooks IN HIS PRIME.

After the 3 1/2 year lay-off Frazier hit him with "alot" of good left hooks,and some other fighters.Yes,Cooper dropped Ali with a good left hook,and Sonny Banks.But I'm not sure a 1967 Ali gets dropped by either.The Cooper rematch? Not close.Sonny banks was very early in his career.I don't see Ali getting hit with "alot" of good left hooks in his prime.Oh yes,I know that was the punch that Ali was suspectable to,and Williams had a "murderous" left hook.But prime for prime is just speculation.

I'd say that the left hook was the only punch he really got hit by in his prime. Chuvalo, Liston, Cooper, Patterson were only able to hit him to the head with this punch and only occasionally.

It's mostly because you can't really lean away from the left hook as easily, especially if it's thrown from a "blind spot", for example the left hook Cooper hit Ali with. Ali/Clay never saw it coming.

Now Williams may have been too limited to land anything significant on a prime Ali, but a quick left hooker with good stamina against Ali would always be interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Williams had given more trouble to Ali in his prime than Liston, despite Liston beating Williams twice.

It's a bit like Foreman and Frazier/Norton, with Foreman being too slow and crude to beat Ali, while being able to defeat Frazier and Norton because of his greater strength and punching power.

Williams lacked the chin to take Liston's best and the defense to avoid it, but he could trouble Ali because of his speed and stamina which Liston lacked.

You do a good job arguing(sp) against Ali if he never fought again after 1967.

And I know your just presenting what the critics would say if he never fought again after 1967.In fact,that is what they were saying about Ali's career from 1963-1967.I'm not taking what you say "personal",I'm just trying to argue Ali's point of view.Even the worst critics admitted Ali was the fastest Heavyweight of all-time.Something else I would present when arguing for Ali.I know I can't bring up Liston because his critics say Liston threw both fights.

Anyway,over time I believe Ali would be looked back upon as one of the greatest(Top 5) heavyweights of all-time.He never had a mark on his face after 9 title defenses!!

I might get overboard with my writing at times! I enjoy a good discussion about boxing and its history. :boxing:

I'd say that the left hook was the only punch he really got hit by in his prime. Chuvalo, Liston, Cooper, Patterson were only able to hit him to the head with this punch and only occasionally.

It's mostly because you can't really lean away from the left hook as easily, especially if it's thrown from a "blind spot", for example the left hook Cooper hit Ali with. Ali/Clay never saw it coming.

Now Williams may have been too limited to land anything significant on a prime Ali, but a quick left hooker with good stamina against Ali would always be interesting. I wouldn't be surprised if Williams had given more trouble to Ali in his prime than Liston, despite Liston beating Williams twice.

It's a bit like Foreman and Frazier/Norton, with Foreman being too slow and crude to beat Ali, while being able to defeat Frazier and Norton because of his greater strength and punching power.

Williams lacked the chin to take Liston's best and the defense to avoid it, but he could trouble Ali because of his speed and stamina which Liston lacked.



I might get overboard with my writing at times! I enjoy a good discussion about boxing and its history. :boxing:

Oh, I understand the Norton,Frazier,Forman,Ali senario.And how Williams would give Ali a much better fight than Liston did,dispite Liston KO'ing Williams twice.STYLES MAKE FIGHTS...And Williams would give Ali a much better fight than Liston did.Just Like Norton and Frazier beating Ali,and Ali KO Forman.I understand.I boxed myself and wrestled in high school and college and I know STYLES make fights and matches.I know Williams had a good murderous left hook that could catch Ali,and had better hand speed than Liston and stamina to give Ali a long night.Just like Norton had a style that would bother a prime Ali.But Williams and Liston would destroy Norton in 2 rounds.I understand what your saying.

Geeezzz,that was alot of typing for someone who can barley type,and is a bad typer and speller.Lol

I might get overboard with my writing at times! I enjoy a good discussion about boxing and its history. :boxing:

Are you kidding? I'd rather read the stuff a scholar like you produces than any of the ignorant fan-boi stuff over in NSB.....keep posting and go as long as you want!

Poet

When Muhammad Ali refused induction into the Army in 1967 and was stripped of his Title there were many prople who believed he would never fight again.

If Ali had never fought again after his fight with Zora Folley in 1967,where do you believe he would be ranked today?
still No1 .. Cassius Clay was unbeatable, Muhammad Ali was beatable

When was Ali meant to have ducked Harold Johnson?

After the Jones fight. Harold wanted him cuz he saw Ali go life and death with a guy he clowned. Johnson, like Young, was another Philadelphia fighter who would make Ali not look as great as some people would claim he is.

Anyways, this went in tandem with the ripping Ali's pre-exile resume to shreds argument. It's not an issue raised now cuz Ali came back and fought the best of the best.

Still, I do wish Ali did fight Johnson. Ali made a legacy off of embarrassing slow big men (Liston, Foreman). A lot of smaller quicker fighters gave him hell.

Back to the Ali-Cleveland Williams fight.

Ali did what he was supposed to do with THAT Cleveland Williams.

The Cleveland Williams that Ali fought,Ali did what he was supposed to do against him.