It has been 90 years since this fight happened:

The complete film:

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The fight in pictures:

http://pro.corbis.com/images/SF33420.jpg?size=67&uid=72225335-0d53-4c1f-ac82-3d49dd4e5d42&uniqID=63429b7c-2292-4b05-b7b7-21981c03c189

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/JimmyShimmy/AwesomeDempseyWillardphoto.jpg

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE053933.jpg?size=67&uid=d884f6f8-33a7-4a7a-ac55-c9bd2a26b971&uniqID=bbb48bc0-0a72-4101-8404-13c938f9c277

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE059349.jpg?size=67&uid=f9f2250c-cdd9-4c14-853b-6c6a8db67e2f&uniqID=b2b541e3-abad-4034-96d3-3d0fd7221a6c

Brutal ending for Willard. Dempsey messed him up badly.

Surely one of the most brutal hidings ever administered in a boxing ring.. Willard always insisted there was something in Dempseys gloves that day, but to the best of my knowledge, nothing was ever proven.. I don't think Dempsey was the kind of guy to knowingly cheat..

dempsey is the best!!! thx for vids

To this day the most brutal championship fight in the history of boxing.

Hi Mickey, yes poor Willard insisted that Dempsey's left glove was packed with a tool used to tighten ring ropes till the day he died! He kept what he believed to be the implement in a box and showed it to one of his biographers. It was apparently found on the canvas in Dempsey's corner by one of Jess's cornermen after the fight.

Others touted that Dempsey had used plaster of Paris!

I'm undecided but lean more to Dempsey's innocence, I think he had the beating of Willard anyway and more than enough power without extra aids.

The only doubt of mine stems from the sheer damage that Willard sustained.....a smashed eye socket! Foreman, Shavers and Tyson never did that to a man! Plus Dempsey never damaged a man's features quite like that again!

theres allways that weird kinda explained thing about how dempsey left the ring and almost didnt make it back in....why was he so quick to leave the ring? theres also the thing about how if you actually used plaster after the first few hits it would crumple and start to do more damage to your hands then it would to the other persons face.

me thinks jack just wanted to get the plaster out of his gloves

Hi Mickey, yes poor Willard insisted that Dempsey's left glove was packed with a tool used to tighten ring ropes till the day he died! He kept what he believed to be the implement in a box and showed it to one of his biographers. It was apparently found on the canvas in Dempsey's corner by one of Jess's cornermen after the fight.

Others touted that Dempsey had used plaster of Paris!

I'm undecided but lean more to Dempsey's innocence, I think he had the beating of Willard anyway and more than enough power without extra aids.

The only doubt of mine stems from the sheer damage that Willard sustained.....a smashed eye socket! Foreman, Shavers and Tyson never did that to a man! Plus Dempsey never damaged a man's features quite like that again!
Good post SugarJ.. Very informative... Almost too informative.. It does add a cloud of controversy over the win, but then who'd be stupid enough to leave it in their own corner?.. You have thought he'd have at least toe poked it out of the ring..
Don't blame Willard for thinking that though.. No body else even came close to doing that to him..

Quite right Mickey, I'd have managed to conveniently lose the tool too! I'll look the story up again, it may have been the ring apron. I seem to remember reading it in a very good book by a guy called Gerrard Suster, I'll look it up again.

Jess said that being hit by the left was much harder than the right.

As I said, I lean against the claim......dont want to upset Mr Kinetic. Ha ha

Surely one of the most brutal hidings ever administered in a boxing ring.. Willard always insisted there was something in Dempseys gloves that day, but to the best of my knowledge, nothing was ever proven.. I don't think Dempsey was the kind of guy to knowingly cheat..

Hi Mickey, yes poor Willard insisted that Dempsey's left glove was packed with a tool used to tighten ring ropes till the day he died! He kept what he believed to be the implement in a box and showed it to one of his biographers. It was apparently found on the canvas in Dempsey's corner by one of Jess's cornermen after the fight.

Others touted that Dempsey had used plaster of Paris!

I'm undecided but lean more to Dempsey's innocence, I think he had the beating of Willard anyway and more than enough power without extra aids.

The only doubt of mine stems from the sheer damage that Willard sustained.....a smashed eye socket! Foreman, Shavers and Tyson never did that to a man! Plus Dempsey never damaged a man's features quite like that again!

A lot of info about Dempsey's alleged cheating can be found here:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263497&highlight=Dempsey


To this day the most brutal championship fight in the history of boxing.

From newspaper accounts I would say that destinction goes to Ad Wolgast stopping Battling Nelson in 40 brutal rounds.

From newspaper accounts I would say that destinction goes to Ad Wolgast stopping Battling Nelson in 40 brutal rounds.

There's film of it too. They say Nelson averaged 80 punches thrown a round, which is incredible for a 40 round fight.

There's film of it too. They say Nelson averaged 80 punches thrown a round, which is incredible for a 40 round fight.
Yeah I know about the film. Years after the fight as Nelson was turned near insane, a theater showed the fight. Nelson was in attendance and stole the film! He was then arrested but later released because of mental condition I believe.

I'd love to see the footage for sure. LondonRingRules (or was it Threadstealer) has some 15-20 minutes of the fight and said it was like Pryor-Arguello just 40 rounds instead of 13. :eek:

The only doubt of mine stems from the sheer damage that Willard sustained.....a smashed eye socket! Foreman, Shavers and Tyson never did that to a man! Plus Dempsey never damaged a man's features quite like that again!

Look where Dempsey's throwing those punches from though. He's hauling all the way and letting fly.

The thing is, from everything I've read Dempsey was told right before the fight that his entire purse was bet on him being able to get Willard out of their in 1. So Jack didn't lack for incentive. He wanted Jess gone and gone quick.

In a way it reminds me of Ray Robinson in the second Turpin fight: Throwing the same kind of punches because he had to get rid of his opponent quick. The big difference is Turpin was awkward and very difficult to hit cleanly while Willard was clumsy, had a big strike zone, and couldn't spell defense he you spotted him the d-e-f-e-n :boxing:

Poet

Jess said that being hit by the left was much harder than the right.

Dunno, looks like the right was fvcking him up pretty good too.

Poet

There's film of it too. They say Nelson averaged 80 punches thrown a round, which is incredible for a 40 round fight.

Yeah I know about the film. Years after the fight as Nelson was turned near insane, a theater showed the fight. Nelson was in attendance and stole the film! He was then arrested but later released because of mental condition I believe.

And people claim today's fighters are better conditioned than the old-timers :rofl:

Poet

Hi Mickey, Hi Poet..........good stuff, I heard the tale about the first round too! $10,000 at 10-1. You'd have to be super confident to bet that on your charge with a 1919 bookie when your man was outweighed by 65 pounds!

I actually dug out that book at lunchtime 'Champions of the Ring' by Gerald Suster.

It turns out that in addition to the smashed eye socket poor Jess also suffered broken ribs, a broken nose, a broken jaw, two black eyes and urinated blood for a week!!!!

After the three rounds he sat crying on his stool muttering 'I have $100,000 and a farm in Kansas' repeatedly.

He refused to shake Dempsey's hand for years afterwards (even for money!) citing that Jack had this iron bolt stuffed in his left glove.

It was the late Reg Gutteridge who visited Willard and was shown the bolt shortly before Jess's death. Willard truely believed even as an old man that Dempsey had his glove loaded.

The book says that 'there is a scrap of evidence for this contention. Close inspection of the Dempsey vs Willard films reveals a metal object lying at the end of the ring nearest the camera, beneath the third rope and at the centre.' (Obviously in the post fight aftermath). It also says the object 'looks roughly like the sort of spanner used for loosening or tightening ring ropes'.

Looks like the debate will go on.......

Close inspection of the Dempsey vs Willard films reveals a metal object lying at the end of the ring nearest the camera, beneath the third rope and at the centre.' (Obviously in the post fight aftermath). It also says the object 'looks roughly like the sort of spanner used for loosening or tightening ring ropes'.

Well, if it lying on the ring apron than clearly it wasn't in Dempsey's glove :)

Poet

Hi Poet,

As I said in brackets before '(Obviously in the post fight aftermath)'. I'm guessing were it true Dempsey's handlers would have been extra careful taking Jack's gloves off.

I have the full fight at home but it doesn't show much after the fight finished, I haven't looked at the You tube posts above so dont know if they have much post fight coverage.

The author much have had a longer edit to have spotted the accused implement. Hee hee

me thinks jack just wanted to get the plaster out of his gloves

me thinks jack wanted to spend his winnings :)
Think it would have been amusing if Dempsey had been disqualified for not being in the ring for round 2, Willard would have made a great picture as the winner and still....

I have no idea whether this will work, this is my first ever link I have posted (Call me GreatA) so here goes nothing.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/dempsey_gloves.html

An interesting article on the whole affair, it certainly discounts the plaster of paris theory resoundingly but does give some legs to the load theory. Anyhow read and make your own mind up.
For my money its an urban myth.

Some more pics from the fight:

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e248/artneo/0822.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/1y65o9.jpg

And people claim today's fighters are better conditioned than the old-timers :rofl:

Poet
Dempsey's trainingroutine is here below. It's stolen from another forum :)

"here's his daily routine, workout recommendations, and some more indepth information according to his fantastic book "Championship Fighting":

DAILY WORKOUT ROUTINE:
0600: Wake up, drink a hot cup of hot tea or broth (chicken or beef)
0630: Hit the road for your roadwork
0700: Go home, quick cool-down and shower, eat a breakfast of fruit juice, cereal, eggs, and milk/tea.
1230: Eat a lunch of lettuce and tomato on basil bread (with 2-3 slices of bacon), glass of milk or cup of tea. If you don't use bacon with the sandwich you can have a malted milk.
1800: Gymwork. Have a cup of hot tea with lemon before you work out.
1915: Workout completed, go home
1930: Eat dinner: half grapefruit or glass of fruit juice (or a cup or broth); a salad with olive oil and perhaps lemon juice; meat, boiled or broiled, never fried; steaks, chops, or chicken; stews are good for weight gain; baked potatoes are too; no pork, veal, lobster, shrimp, crab, or starchy foods like spaghetti. For dessert: stewed fruit, prunes, apriocots, pears, rhubarb, etc., and a cup of hot tea. NO PASTRIES.
2015: Relax for half an hour.
2045: Take a light 15-min walk.
2100: Go to bed.

Dempsey would sometimes either take only 1 day off a week or, if he felt like he was overtraining too much, he would actually take a week off during his pre-fight training.

Roadwork: Dempsey liked to run shorter distances than a lot of the other boxers in his era (some of those old timers would run 150 miles per week!). He mixed up 100m sprints and rounds of shadowboxing in with his runs. He recommends starting off with 1/2 mile each day for 7 days, then slowly working it up to 2 miles a day.

Gymwork: Here's a basic schedule he recommends for the aspiring fighter to get started.

**Shadowboxing, 2 rounds
**Sparring, 3 rounds
**Heavy bag, 2 rounds
**Speed bag, 3 rounds
**Rope skipping, 2-3 rounds
**Calisthenics, 2 rounds
**5 minute "sweat-out" in the sauna followed by a shower

Shadowboxing: He sees this as a very important part of your training, almost as important as sparring. Make sure you're using your footwork and actually fight an opponent. Wear your gloves when you shadowbox so you get even more of a workout from it.

Sparring: The most important exercise. Go hard on each other but don't kill each other. You are sparring to learn after all. Use protection when you need to.

Heavy Bag: Start off with 2-minute rounds and work your way up to 3-minute rounds. The first 60 seconds of each round he worked on bobbing and weaving followed by counter punches.

Speed Bag: A great exercise in his opinion. Again, start off with 2-minute rounds and work your way up to 3-minute rounds. Devote the first 60 seconds of speed bag work on the straight backhand combination (left straight-left backhand-right straight-right backhand). The rest of the round, hit hard with everything else.

Rope Skipping: Don't "hippity hop like a schoolgirl." Bounce off one foot then the other, it will be awkward at first but be patient and you'll reap big results.

Calisthenics: Situps with arms extended over your head (he preferred straight-legged, but bend your knees), twisting situps (go up, twist sharply to left then right, then go back down), back bridges, wall pulley work, pushups, medicine ball tosses against the stomach (though he recommends several months of situps before a beginner tries these), and a neck exercise where you turn your head to the side and jut your chin out past your shoulder, moving only your chin. He also did a lot of manual physical work (he was a miner at one point) and was a monster with pull-ups (sometimes doing up to 200 per day!). Sitting and standing forward and side bends were also used for his midsection.

Other Training Tidbits:
**He recommended using camphored ice on skinned knuckles right before bed.
**During his workout, you would often see him chewing on gum made out of pine tar. It was very sticky and thick, so boxers during that day used to chew lots of it in the hopes that it would give them a tougher chin.
**He would also bathe his hands and face in beef brine, as he felt it toughened up your skin like old leather. He was prone to cuts at times, so he began to "skin toughen" his face by rubbing around cut-prone areas with his thumbs vigorously (until it was raw but not bleeding) to develop calluses there."

Dempsey's trainingroutine is here below. It's stolen from another forum :)

"here's his daily routine, workout recommendations, and some more indepth information according to his fantastic book "Championship Fighting":

DAILY WORKOUT ROUTINE:
0600: Wake up, drink a hot cup of hot tea or broth (chicken or beef)
0630: Hit the road for your roadwork
0700: Go home, quick cool-down and shower, eat a breakfast of fruit juice, cereal, eggs, and milk/tea.
1230: Eat a lunch of lettuce and tomato on basil bread (with 2-3 slices of bacon), glass of milk or cup of tea. If you don't use bacon with the sandwich you can have a malted milk.
1800: Gymwork. Have a cup of hot tea with lemon before you work out.
1915: Workout completed, go home
1930: Eat dinner: half grapefruit or glass of fruit juice (or a cup or broth); a salad with olive oil and perhaps lemon juice; meat, boiled or broiled, never fried; steaks, chops, or chicken; stews are good for weight gain; baked potatoes are too; no pork, veal, lobster, shrimp, crab, or starchy foods like spaghetti. For dessert: stewed fruit, prunes, apriocots, pears, rhubarb, etc., and a cup of hot tea. NO PASTRIES.
2015: Relax for half an hour.
2045: Take a light 15-min walk.
2100: Go to bed.

Dempsey would sometimes either take only 1 day off a week or, if he felt like he was overtraining too much, he would actually take a week off during his pre-fight training.

Roadwork: Dempsey liked to run shorter distances than a lot of the other boxers in his era (some of those old timers would run 150 miles per week!). He mixed up 100m sprints and rounds of shadowboxing in with his runs. He recommends starting off with 1/2 mile each day for 7 days, then slowly working it up to 2 miles a day.

Gymwork: Here's a basic schedule he recommends for the aspiring fighter to get started.

**Shadowboxing, 2 rounds
**Sparring, 3 rounds
**Heavy bag, 2 rounds
**Speed bag, 3 rounds
**Rope skipping, 2-3 rounds
**Calisthenics, 2 rounds
**5 minute "sweat-out" in the sauna followed by a shower

Shadowboxing: He sees this as a very important part of your training, almost as important as sparring. Make sure you're using your footwork and actually fight an opponent. Wear your gloves when you shadowbox so you get even more of a workout from it.

Sparring: The most important exercise. Go hard on each other but don't kill each other. You are sparring to learn after all. Use protection when you need to.

Heavy Bag: Start off with 2-minute rounds and work your way up to 3-minute rounds. The first 60 seconds of each round he worked on bobbing and weaving followed by counter punches.

Speed Bag: A great exercise in his opinion. Again, start off with 2-minute rounds and work your way up to 3-minute rounds. Devote the first 60 seconds of speed bag work on the straight backhand combination (left straight-left backhand-right straight-right backhand). The rest of the round, hit hard with everything else.

Rope Skipping: Don't "hippity hop like a schoolgirl." Bounce off one foot then the other, it will be awkward at first but be patient and you'll reap big results.

Calisthenics: Situps with arms extended over your head (he preferred straight-legged, but bend your knees), twisting situps (go up, twist sharply to left then right, then go back down), back bridges, wall pulley work, pushups, medicine ball tosses against the stomach (though he recommends several months of situps before a beginner tries these), and a neck exercise where you turn your head to the side and jut your chin out past your shoulder, moving only your chin. He also did a lot of manual physical work (he was a miner at one point) and was a monster with pull-ups (sometimes doing up to 200 per day!). Sitting and standing forward and side bends were also used for his midsection.

Other Training Tidbits:
**He recommended using camphored ice on skinned knuckles right before bed.
**During his workout, you would often see him chewing on gum made out of pine tar. It was very sticky and thick, so boxers during that day used to chew lots of it in the hopes that it would give them a tougher chin.
**He would also bathe his hands and face in beef brine, as he felt it toughened up your skin like old leather. He was prone to cuts at times, so he began to "skin toughen" his face by rubbing around cut-prone areas with his thumbs vigorously (until it was raw but not bleeding) to develop calluses there."

Shows how little has change really as far as how fighters prepare for a fight at least as far as what is done (I don't think the intensity is as great now). So much for a good bit of the "modern training" argument.

PS. Great find Battling!

Poet

From newspaper accounts I would say that destinction goes to Ad Wolgast stopping Battling Nelson in 40 brutal rounds.

Perhaps, but you don't go 40 rounds by fighting at a furious pace. You do it by a great deal of clinching, engaging sparingly, and conserving energy in general, making it a test of stamina (which is how Wolgast apparently won, by staying away and boxing the busier Nelson). The fight you reference was stopped on cuts with only one knockdown, coming in the 22nd round.

In contrast, Dempsey knocked Willard down 7 times in the first round, leaving him with horrific injuries.

Perhaps, but you don't go 40 rounds by fighting at a furious pace. You do it by a great deal of clinching, engaging sparingly, and conserving energy in general, making it a test of stamina (which is how Wolgast apparently won, by staying away and boxing the busier Nelson).

There's film of it too. They say Nelson averaged 80 punches thrown a round, which is incredible for a 40 round fight.

Well, if in fact Nelson WAS throwing 80 punches a round then that isn't "engaging sparringly" and there wouldn't be much time for "clinching" and "conserving energy".

Poet

Well, if in fact Nelson WAS throwing 80 punches a round then that isn't "engaging sparringly" and there wouldn't be much time for "clinching" and "conserving energy".

Poet

And he lost too - my point. I don't imagine many of those punches were connecting, especially by the second half.

Perhaps, but you don't go 40 rounds by fighting at a furious pace. You do it by a great deal of clinching, engaging sparingly, and conserving energy in general, making it a test of stamina (which is how Wolgast apparently won, by staying away and boxing the busier Nelson). The fight you reference was stopped on cuts with only one knockdown, coming in the 22nd round.

In contrast, Dempsey knocked Willard down 7 times in the first round, leaving him with horrific injuries.
I will go as far as saying that Willard probably took the worst one-sided beating ever.

I'm currently reading some newspaper accounts of the Wolgast-Nelson fight. I might make a thread about it at some time. Brutal gory stuff.

Firstly GJC, great article......thoroughly enjoyed it. Only aspect it didn't delve into was the possibility that the iron implement was inside the glove, rather than held in his palm.


As for Dempsey's training regime, did anyone else feel that half an hours morning road work and an evenings hour and a quarter workout seems not as much as expected for a championship fighter? I'm discounting the light walk before bed. He obviously had great fitness, so whatever works!

And he lost too - my point. I don't imagine many of those punches were connecting, especially by the second half.

Wolgast was indeed landing the heavier punches in between Nelson's relentless attack.

Here you can see a very short clip of the Nelson-Wolgast fight:

http://www.geocities.com/jcbunnell/movie/nelsonQTvideo.html

It's the last round of the fight.

"The Battling Nelson and Ad Wolgast lightweight championship held on Feb 22, 1910 was called “for concentrated viciousness... the most savage bout I have ever seen” wrote W.O. McGeehan in the New York Herald Tribune.

Michael Hunnicut agrees, saying it is “the best fight I have ever seen on film.” They fought to the 42nd round. Nelson, a swarmer, like Ricky Hatton, averaged 85 punches a round. He threw 90 in the 30th round.

They slowed in the 39th. Nelson, the loser, threw 70. These guys threw just as many punches-a-round as one sees in a 12-rounder today, but they did it for over 40! "

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/myth.html

There's also this:

"The Willie Ritchie-Joe Rivers July 4, 1913 lightweight championship match, featured a whopping 95 punches-a-round from Ritchie -- 3-5 punch combinations – before stopping Rivers in the 11th – clear evidence, he could match the intensity of anybody currently. "

I'll have this fight uploaded soon.

Wolgast was indeed landing the heavier punches in between Nelson's relentless attack.

Here you can see a very short clip of the Nelson-Wolgast fight:

http://www.geocities.com/jcbunnell/movie/nelsonQTvideo.html

It's the last round of the fight.

"The Battling Nelson and Ad Wolgast lightweight championship held on Feb 22, 1910 was called “for concentrated viciousness... the most savage bout I have ever seen” wrote W.O. McGeehan in the New York Herald Tribune.

Michael Hunnicut agrees, saying it is “the best fight I have ever seen on film.” They fought to the 42nd round. Nelson, a swarmer, like Ricky Hatton, averaged 85 punches a round. He threw 90 in the 30th round.

They slowed in the 39th. Nelson, the loser, threw 70. These guys threw just as many punches-a-round as one sees in a 12-rounder today, but they did it for over 40! "

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/myth.html

There's also this:

"The Willie Ritchie-Joe Rivers July 4, 1913 lightweight championship match, featured a whopping 95 punches-a-round from Ritchie -- 3-5 punch combinations – before stopping Rivers in the 11th – clear evidence, he could match the intensity of anybody currently. "

I'll have this fight uploaded soon.
Amazing punch-stats. Hardly believeable.

If I'm not mistaken the clip of the Wolgast-Nelson fight is from the same site that features the famous double KD of Wolgast and Rivers(?). I cannot see the clip today and I don't know why :grumpy:

Sitenote TGA: How do you put more than 4 images into a post?

A lot of info about Dempsey's alleged cheating can be found here:

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=263497&highlight=Dempsey




From newspaper accounts I would say that destinction goes to Ad Wolgast stopping Battling Nelson in 40 brutal rounds.
Yeah, thanks.... Just keeps raising my suspicions again..
Could Dempsey have been influenced by Kearns?... He was dodgy,.. 4 sure..
Why did Dempsey's punches look like those thrown from some type of Cyborg?... More so than ever b4, or afterwards?.... Against inferior opponents to Willard as well..
There's an awful lot to chew on here, & I'm not even 100% sure on the managerial situation at the time.... But.......... Kearns was kind'a, the 'King' of his era...
More so than Pryor Arguelo or Margarito Cotto, I think there's a valid argument for unfair play here...

That day(Prime Dempsey)could have beat most Heavyweight Champions who ever lived!!

Only fighters who were good boxers with good mobility and good foot speed could have beaten Dempsey that day.Also the ability to tie him up.Very few champions could have beaten that Jack Dempsey!!

That day(Prime Dempsey)could have beat most Heavyweight Champions who ever lived!!

Only fighters who were good boxers with good mobility and good foot speed could have beaten Dempsey that day.Also the ability to tie him up.Very few champions could have beaten that Jack Dempsey!!
What?... You mean by fighting exactly the same way as Ricky Hatton?..

What?... You mean by fighting exactly the same way as Ricky Hatton?..

Don't insult Dempsey.

Don't insult Dempsey.
Don't start all the insult bollocks.. It's just a factual observation.. As with Hatton, that style works against a lot of fighters, but if Willard fought like Pacquiao, Dempsey would have been wide open to it.. Although it's one of the most brutal beatings in history, it also has to be one of the most reckless..

Don't start all the insult bollocks.. It's just a factual observation.. As with Hatton, that style works against a lot of fighters, but if Willard fought like Pacquiao, Dempsey would have been wide open to it.. Although it's one of the most brutal beatings in history, it also has to be one of the most reckless..

There was nothing reckless at all about the way he fought up until the first knockdown. After that he was just going for the kill, this was before the neutral corner rule and Willard couldn't fight back at all - why not rain haymakers upon him?

There was nothing reckless at all about the way he fought up until the first knockdown. After that he was just going for the kill, this was before the neutral corner rule and Willard couldn't fight back at all - why not rain haymakers upon him?
His footwork looks ok, but his hands are at waist level.. I don't think he'd get away with that against a better opponent, or to put it another way, I think a lot of heavies would have flattened Willard that day.. He didn't look particularly clued up or confident, before the 1st KD.. Dempsey just did what he had to do, but I think Tyson, Foreman, Liston, Louis, would have poleaxed Willard with one punch & saved him from a lot of facial damage..

Here's the fight in better quality:

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Don't start all the insult bollocks.. It's just a factual observation.. As with Hatton, that style works against a lot of fighters, but if Willard fought like Pacquiao, Dempsey would have been wide open to it.. Although it's one of the most brutal beatings in history, it also has to be one of the most reckless..

The difference is that Hatton has no head movement and thus can't get away with it.

It has been 90 years since this fight happened:

The complete film:

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The fight in pictures:

http://pro.corbis.com/images/SF33420.jpg?size=67&uid=72225335-0d53-4c1f-ac82-3d49dd4e5d42&uniqID=63429b7c-2292-4b05-b7b7-21981c03c189

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y152/JimmyShimmy/AwesomeDempseyWillardphoto.jpg

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE053933.jpg?size=67&uid=d884f6f8-33a7-4a7a-ac55-c9bd2a26b971&uniqID=bbb48bc0-0a72-4101-8404-13c938f9c277

http://pro.corbis.com/images/BE059349.jpg?size=67&uid=f9f2250c-cdd9-4c14-853b-6c6a8db67e2f&uniqID=b2b541e3-abad-4034-96d3-3d0fd7221a6c
great stuff thanks for posting it. i had never seen all the pre fight footage before. even showed dempseys dog great stuff.

The difference is that Hatton has no head movement and thus can't get away with it.

And unlike Hatton, Dempsey actually understood the concept of "slipping punches" :)

Poet

More so than Pryor Arguelo or Margarito Cotto, I think there's a valid argument for unfair play here...

Not sure about more so Mickey its all circumstantial kind of depends on your view really.
I'd personally put the Dempsey Willard one in 3rd on the suss stakes.
Don't forget Kearns was a hustler and him and Dempsey had fallen out big time so if you treat Kearns claims with the suspision you should what else is left, not too much in my opinion.

Not sure about more so Mickey its all circumstantial kind of depends on your view really.
I'd personally put the Dempsey Willard one in 3rd on the suss stakes.
Don't forget Kearns was a hustler and him and Dempsey had fallen out big time so if you treat Kearns claims with the suspision you should what else is left, not too much in my opinion.
Kearns was the bad egg tor sure..
Something's not right, because Willard was a big tough man with good bone structure.. Certainly, a lot tougher than most of Jack's other opponents.. And the fact he suffered some unique injuries not conducive with a boxing glove, reeks of foul play as far as I'm concerned.. Maybe not more so, but equally in comparison to Pryor..

And unlike Hatton, Dempsey actually understood the concept of "slipping punches" :)

Poet
Hatton slipped punches quite well until he got in with prime world class operators..

I feel Dempsey is similar.. Against Willard, who let's be honest, was about Cooney's level at best, Dempsey was able to slip the punches with a low guard.. However, if he'd fought anyone near to the ability of Mayweather or Pacquiao, he'd have been found out.. I think he's generally overrated..

Hatton slipped punches quite well until he got in with prime world class operators..

I feel Dempsey is similar.. Against Willard, who let's be honest, was about Cooney's level at best, Dempsey was able to slip the punches with a low guard.. However, if he'd fought anyone near to the ability of Mayweather or Pacquiao, he'd have been found out.. I think he's generally overrated..

Against a Pacquiao maybe: There's a reason I don't put Heavyweights on p4p lists :) Mayweather would just take the occasional pot-shot and run like fvck.

Poet

Against a Pacquiao maybe: There's a reason I don't put Heavyweights on p4p lists :) Mayweather would just take the occasional pot-shot and run like fvck.

Poet

so your saying mayweather could beat ATG heavyweights? everyone has heavyweight's on a p4p list, i think you're the only one that dosent for some silly reason.

Against a Pacquiao maybe: There's a reason I don't put Heavyweights on p4p lists :) Mayweather would just take the occasional pot-shot and run like fvck.

Poet
Get your drift, but I still think that Dempsey fights in a similar style to Hatton, only with quicker head movement, & a more reliable chin..

Get your drift, but I still think that Dempsey fights in a similar style to Hatton, only with quicker head movement, & a more reliable chin..

Dempsey did a lot of subtle things that don't usually get noticed but win you fights: Kind of like a prime Duran in that regard. Hatton's about as subtle as a flogging; a crude slugger if there ever was one. Dempsey had more skills than that.

Poet

Dempsey did a lot of subtle things that don't usually get noticed but win you fights: Kind of like a prime Duran in that regard. Hatton's about as subtle as a flogging; a crude slugger if there ever was one. Dempsey had more skills than that.

Poet
It's been a while since I've seen any of his other fights, & I noted that you had some in your library.. Brennan,Firpo,Gibbons,Tunney.. Any one of those if at all possible.. Thanks mm