This is one that's been bugging me.. I can't make up my mind with the welters.. It's outta these fighters.. I'd also be interested to see what order you guys would place them in..


No particular order..

Ray Leonard
Ray Robinson
Felix Trinidad
Pernell Whitaker
Kid Gavilan
Oscar De La Hoya
Jose Napoles
Henry Armstrong
Carlos Palomino
Shane Mosley

Anyone you think should or shouldn't be in the list would be welcome, as this is a division I could do with learning more about.. Maybe the guy that you rate at no1 isn't even listed.. Please let me know.. Regards mm

Be bugged no more mickey it's sugar ray Robinson :)

Kid Gavilan FTW!

Be bugged no more mickey it's sugar ray Robinson :)

I second that :boxing:

Poet

Robinson was the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be at 147

Robinson was the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be at 147

A bit of Bret Hart there :boxing:

Poet

All great fighters but I would have to go with Ray Robinson. Second would either be Leonard, Whitaker or Napoles. Tough choices.

My heart's always been with Robinson, but my head goes with Trinidad.. Am I badly wrong here?

Ray Robinson is pretty much recognized as the best ever, and welterweight was his best weight, so the REAL Sugar Ray is the best welterweight.

My heart's always been with Robinson, but my head goes with Trinidad.. Am I badly wrong here?

Taking a page from GJC's dry, ironic sense of humour I see :rofl:

Poet

Taking a page from GJC's dry, ironic sense of humour I see :rofl:

Poet
Lol.. But seriously... I do rate Trinidad at 147..
Where would you put him?

1 Floyd Mayweather
2 Paul Williams

How is Leonard a great WW when he lost to a LW. Floyd won't lose to JMM

A bit of Bret Hart there :boxing:

Poet

My favorite wrestler of all time. Only man other than Hearns to deserve the moniker "Hitman" Not like the Manchester Midget, a fake ass Hitman.

Lol.. But seriously... I do rate Trinidad at 147..
Where would you put him?

I have Felix at number 12: Not too shabby considering how stacked historically the Welterweights have been.

Poet

1 Floyd Mayweather
2 Paul Williams

How is Leonard a great WW when he lost to a LW. Floyd won't lose to JMM

Go back to NSB Junior.

Poet

My favorite wrestler of all time. Only man other than Hearns to deserve the moniker "Hitman" Not like the Manchester Midget, a fake ass Hitman.

Yeah, Hart was a long-time favorite of mine.....along with Chris Benoit.

Poet

My heart's always been with Robinson, but my head goes with Trinidad.. Am I badly wrong here?
I'm a big fan of trinidad think the big arguments will be on who is the 2nd best ever welterweight

I have Felix at number 12: Not too shabby considering how stacked historically the Welterweights have been.

Poet
Will probably have to list them does seem a little low for trinidad that, guess Armstrong has got to be favourite for second napoles and gavilan above trinidad not a huge fan of Leonard but he has to be in the mix after that it's tricky IMO you got your ww list handy would be interested to see who you show above felix deep though the division is.

I voted for Robinson, the alternative choices were pretty bad. I'm actually offended Joe Walcott isn't on the list.

Will probably have to list them does seem a little low for trinidad that, guess Armstrong has got to be favourite for second napoles and gavilan above trinidad not a huge fan of Leonard but he has to be in the mix after that it's tricky IMO you got your ww list handy would be interested to see who you show above felix deep though the division is.

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor
1. Ray Robinson
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Ray Leonard
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Jose Napoles
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Carlos Palomino
8. Shane Mosley
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Oscar De La Hoya
12. Pipino Cuevas
13. Curtis Cokes
14. Buddy McGirt
15. Jack Britton
16. Marlon Starling
17. Ted Kid Lewis
18. Simon Brown
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Miguel Cotto

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor
1. Ray Robinson
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Ray Leonard
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Jose Napoles
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Carlos Palomino
8. Shane Mosley
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Oscar De La Hoya
12. Pipino Cuevas
13. Curtis Cokes
14. Buddy McGirt
15. Jack Britton
16. Marlon Starling
17. Ted Kid Lewis
18. Simon Brown
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Miguel Cotto

1. Ray Robinson
2. Felix Trinidad
3. Ray Leonard
4. Pernell Whitaker
5. Jose Napoles
6. Henry Armstrong
7. Carlos Palomino
8. Shane Mosley
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Thomas Hearns
11. Oscar De La Hoya
12. Pipino Cuevas
13. Curtis Cokes
14. Buddy McGirt
15. Jack Britton
16. Marlon Starling
17. Ted Kid Lewis
18. Simon Brown
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Miguel Cotto

Your list is rather top-heavy with fighters from the last 15 years. Trinidad at 2? Felix clearly lost to De La Hoya and got a gift decision, outside of that the only other time he fought a prime A class fighter he lost badly (to Hopkins).

Poet

Your list is rather top-heavy with fighters from the last 15 years. Trinidad at 2? Felix clearly lost to De La Hoya and got a gift decision, outside of that the only other time he fought a prime A class fighter he lost badly (to Hopkins).

Poet
Partly the reason for this thread.. I sometimes feel deluded about this, but I do feel that welter has produced it's bulk in quality over the last 20 years..
As you know, I'm normally a main stay on the old school, but as already mentioned, I struggle to do it at this weight.. Maybe I'm wrong, but with exception of the De La Hoya fight, Trinidad had a great resume at welter.. I try to ignore the Hopkins fight as it was at middle, & a long time after he'd cleaned up at welter..

Partly the reason for this thread.. I sometimes feel deluded about this, but I do feel that welter has produced it's bulk in quality over the last 20 years..
As you know, I'm normally a main stay on the old school, but as already mentioned, I struggle to do it at this weight.. Maybe I'm wrong, but with exception of the De La Hoya fight, Trinidad had a great resume at welter.. I try to ignore the Hopkins fight as it was at middle, & a long time after he'd cleaned up at welter..

Trinidad's resume as Welterweight champ:

Oscar De La Hoya - Already covered
Hugo Pineda - Journeyman
Pernell Whitaker - Washed up and in and out of rehab
Mahenge Zulu - Who?
Troy Waters - Journeyman
Kevin Lueshing - Who?
Ray Lovato - Who?
Freddie Pendleton - Decent opponant
Rodney Moore - Who?
Larry Barnes - Who?
Roger Turner - Who?
Oba Carr - Who?
Luis Ramon Campas - Journeyman
Hector Camacho - The nutless wonder himself :rofl:
Anthony Stephens - Who?
Luis Gabriel Garcia - Who?
Maurice Blocker - C class fighter already exposed by Simon Brown

Trinidad's resume as Welterweight champ:

Oscar De La Hoya - Already covered
Hugo Pineda - Journeyman
Pernell Whitaker - Washed up and in and out of rehab
Mahenge Zulu - Who?
Troy Waters - Journeyman
Kevin Lueshing - Who?
Ray Lovato - Who?
Freddie Pendleton - Decent opponant
Rodney Moore - Who?
Larry Barnes - Who?
Roger Turner - Who?
Oba Carr - Who?
Luis Ramon Campas - Journeyman
Hector Camacho - The nutless wonder himself :rofl:
Anthony Stephens - Who?
Luis Gabriel Garcia - Who?
Maurice Blocker - C class fighter already exposed by Simon Brown

Well it's pretty easy to do that with most resume's. But I see, you have Luis Ramon Campas as a journymen. You do realize Campas was 56-0 heading into the fight with Trinidad. And had some pretty solid wins over some vetrans and unbeaten fighters. And after the Trinidad fight he would go on to win a world title. That is no journyman

And I also see who have Oba Carr as ''who''. Going onto the fight Carr was 32-0 and after being stoped by Trinidad would go on to give a prime Ike Quartey one of his toughest fights taking him to a MD. He would also get wins over 27-0 Derrell Coley, Frankie Randall, and Luis Ramon Campas.

I also felt you overlooked his Hector Camacho win to. Going into the fight Hector had only been defeated twiced by Julio Cesar Chavez and a strange SD loss to Greg Haugen, which he avenged. Going into the Tito fight he held wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Howard Davis Jr, Ray Mancini, Vinny Pazienza. In the fight Trinidad showed clever pressure out pointing Hector in only his 23 fight. This win shound't be overlooked.

As for his wins over contenders like Roger Turner, Larry Barnes, Rodney Moore, Troy Waters etc etc. This can't be held against Trinidad, you will find most dominant champions have to defend there title against medicore contenders.

And although I feel he didnt win the De La Hoya fight. Trinidad resume I feel is pretty damn good and should be remebered up there as one of the strongest. Do I don't know about having him number #2 on a 147 list.

Well it's pretty easy to do that with most resume's.

Of course. I believe I've pointed that out in the past.

But I see, you have Luis Ramon Campas as a journymen. You do realize Campas was 56-0 heading into the fight with Trinidad. And had some pretty solid wins over some vetrans and unbeaten fighters. And after the Trinidad fight he would go on to win a world title. That is no journyman

Peter McNeely was 38-0 heading into the Tyson fight.

And I also see who have Oba Carr as ''who''. Going onto the fight Carr was 32-0 and after being stoped by Trinidad would go on to give a prime Ike Quartey one of his toughest fights taking him to a MD. He would also get wins over 27-0 Derrell Coley, Frankie Randall, and Luis Ramon Campas.

That was a mistake. I don't think Carr was a "who?"

I also felt you overlooked his Hector Camacho win to. Going into the fight Hector had only been defeated twiced by Julio Cesar Chavez and a strange SD loss to Greg Haugen, which he avenged. Going into the Tito fight he held wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Howard Davis Jr, Ray Mancini, Vinny Pazienza. In the fight Trinidad showed clever pressure out pointing Hector in only his 23 fight. This win shound't be overlooked.

In my mind Hector Camacho was joke and will newver be otherwise.

As for his wins over contenders like Roger Turner, Larry Barnes, Rodney Moore, Troy Waters etc etc. This can't be held against Trinidad, you will find most dominant champions have to defend there title against medicore contenders.

The promblem is not that he had some mediocre names on during his title run the problem is they make up 95% of it.

And although I feel he didnt win the De La Hoya fight. Trinidad resume I feel is pretty damn good and should be remebered up there as one of the strongest. Do I don't know about having him number #2 on a 147 list.

Here's the issue though: Where are the A class fighters that one can hold up as evidence of an outstanding resume? Especially when there are only a couple of B class fighters on it. If someone is going to rank a fighter at number 2 all-time in a weight class and hold up their resume as evidence then that resume is going to come under scrutiny.

Poet

Well it's pretty easy to do that with most resume's. But I see, you have Luis Ramon Campas as a journymen. You do realize Campas was 56-0 heading into the fight with Trinidad. And had some pretty solid wins over some vetrans and unbeaten fighters. And after the Trinidad fight he would go on to win a world title. That is no journyman
Sorry...This was supposed to be for Poet..
And I also see who have Oba Carr as ''who''. Going onto the fight Carr was 32-0 and after being stoped by Trinidad would go on to give a prime Ike Quartey one of his toughest fights taking him to a MD. He would also get wins over 27-0 Derrell Coley, Frankie Randall, and Luis Ramon Campas.

I also felt you overlooked his Hector Camacho win to. Going into the fight Hector had only been defeated twiced by Julio Cesar Chavez and a strange SD loss to Greg Haugen, which he avenged. Going into the Tito fight he held wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Howard Davis Jr, Ray Mancini, Vinny Pazienza. In the fight Trinidad showed clever pressure out pointing Hector in only his 23 fight. This win shound't be overlooked.

As for his wins over contenders like Roger Turner, Larry Barnes, Rodney Moore, Troy Waters etc etc. This can't be held against Trinidad, you will find most dominant champions have to defend there title against medicore contenders.

And although I feel he didnt win the De La Hoya fight. Trinidad resume I feel is pretty damn good and should be remebered up there as one of the strongest. Do I don't know about having him number #2 on a 147 list.Sorry... This was meant for Poet..
I'd say he's better than you've credited him..
He was the dominant champ from 93-2000 & remains unbeaten at the weight, defending the title 15 times..
All of his defenses were against prime candidates..

Pineda 36-1-1
Zulu 17-2-1
Waters 27-4-0
Lueshing (EU Champ) 19-1-0
Lovato 21-1-0
Barnes 39-1-0
Turner 29-2-0
Carr 32-0-0
Campas 56-0-0
Camacho 43-2-0
Garcia 24-2-0
Blocker 34-3-0

All in all he defended against 5 world champions..
Of the above list only Camacho was able to last the course, & YES... By running it was.. Trinidad was an unbelievable WW..

Of course. I believe I've pointed that out in the past.

But you have just completey done it with Trinidad's accomplishments and resume.

Peter McNeely was 38-0 heading into the Tyson fight.

Wrong. Mcneely was 36-1 he had been defeated going into the Tyson bout. And I don't think you can compare Campas with McNeely. Campas was a good fighter in his prime, and a much more legit one than McNeely ever was. After losing to Trinidad, Campas would go on to win the IBF 154 Title and make 3 defences of the title. And holds wins over Jorge Vaca, Raul Marquez(28-0), and Tony Ayala Jr(27-0).

That was a mistake. I don't think Carr was a "who?"

Fair enough. Do I think you have made a mistake regarding Campas aswell.

In my mind Hector Camacho was joke and will newver be otherwise.

Unless Hector has done something to you on a personal level, Why so much hate against him? Camacho was a accomplished fighter. Who holds wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Cornelius Boza Edwards, Howard Davis Jr, Vinny Pazienza, Greg Haugen.

His wins over Duran and Leonard don't mean much, although Leonard said Camacho was very good fighter with one of the fastest set of hands he had seen. Camacho was also a 3 weight division champion. To me thats a pretty sound resume and some pretty impressive accomplishments.

The promblem is not that he had some mediocre names on during his title run the problem is they make up 95% of it.

Oscar De La Hoya, Pernell Whitaker, Yori Boy Campas(56-0), Oba Carr(32-0), Hector Camacho. 95%? lets not talk silly.


Here's the issue though: Where are the A class fighters that one can hold up as evidence of an outstanding resume? Especially when there are only a couple of B class fighters on it. If someone is going to rank a fighter at number 2 all-time in a weight class and hold up their resume as evidence then that resume is going to come under scrutiny.

Like I said Trinidad shound't be a placed number #2 at on a 147 list. And I think Trinidad's whole resume of wins is pretty impressive, and I can think of few more ATG fighters with a worst resume of wins.



....................

Felix Trinidad
Notable Wins:
Jake Rodriguez
Alberto de las Mercedes Cortes
Maurice Blocker
Hector Camacho (Post-Prime)
Luis Ramon Campas (Undefeated)
Oba Carr (Undefeated)
Freddie Pendleton (Post-Prime)
Pernell Whitaker (Over the hill)
Oscar De La Hoya (Undefeated)
David Reid (Undefeated)
Fernando Vargas (Undefeated)
William Joppy
Ricardo Mayorga
Notable Losses:
Bernard Hopkins
Winky Wright [Tito Post-Prime]
Questionable Wins:
Oscar De La Hoya

Elite wins:
Oscar De La Hoya, Fernando Vargas
Semi-elite wins:
Hector Camacho, Oba Carr, Pernell Whitaker, David Reid
Good wins:
Maurice Blocker, Luis Ramon Campas, Freddie Pendleton, William Joppy, Ricardo Mayorga
OK wins:
Jake Rodriguez, Alberto de las Mercedes Cortes

Decent resume. But, not sure he even makes my top 10 Welterweight list. If he does, he's at the bottom.

And all you people under rating Oba Carr...I wonder if you ever watched this man fight.

Well it's pretty easy to do that with most resume's. But I see, you have Luis Ramon Campas as a journymen. You do realize Campas was 56-0 heading into the fight with Trinidad. And had some pretty solid wins over some vetrans and unbeaten fighters. And after the Trinidad fight he would go on to win a world title. That is no journyman

And I also see who have Oba Carr as ''who''. Going onto the fight Carr was 32-0 and after being stoped by Trinidad would go on to give a prime Ike Quartey one of his toughest fights taking him to a MD. He would also get wins over 27-0 Derrell Coley, Frankie Randall, and Luis Ramon Campas.

I also felt you overlooked his Hector Camacho win to. Going into the fight Hector had only been defeated twiced by Julio Cesar Chavez and a strange SD loss to Greg Haugen, which he avenged. Going into the Tito fight he held wins over Rafael Limon, Jose Luis Ramirez, Edwin Rosario, Howard Davis Jr, Ray Mancini, Vinny Pazienza. In the fight Trinidad showed clever pressure out pointing Hector in only his 23 fight. This win shound't be overlooked.

As for his wins over contenders like Roger Turner, Larry Barnes, Rodney Moore, Troy Waters etc etc. This can't be held against Trinidad, you will find most dominant champions have to defend there title against medicore contenders.

And although I feel he didnt win the De La Hoya fight. Trinidad resume I feel is pretty damn good and should be remebered up there as one of the strongest. Do I don't know about having him number #2 on a 147 list.

Campas was a one-dimensional fighter who turned into a punching bag everytime he stepped up in class. I happen to be fond of Yori Boy but I have no illusions over how good he really was. I was fond of Arturo Gatti too but I'd never classify him as a legitimate threat the real world class fighters.

Poet

Campas was a one-dimensional fighter who turned into a punching bag everytime he stepped up in class. I happen to be fond of Yori Boy but I have no illusions over how good he really was. I was fond of Arturo Gatti too but I'd never classify him as a legitimate threat the real world class fighters.

Poet

Well no one claimed Campas was world class. But you claimed he was jouryman when heading into the Trinidad fight, which was a bogus comment. And I feel you made him out to be a worse than he actually was. As he did have some pretty good wins and was a title holder.

Well no one claimed Campas was world class. But you claimed he was jouryman when heading into the Trinidad fight, which was a bogus comment. And I feel you made him out to be a worse than he actually was. As he did have some pretty good wins and was a title holder.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy and enjoyed watching his fights but I've never seen him as anything other than someone who should have been headlining an ESPN card as opposed to fighting top opponents.

Poet

SRR,

with armstrong a close second.

I know its cliche, but Sugar Ray Robinson was the best.

Not sure Robinson was any better than Walcott. Robinson was successful From Lightweight to Middleweight, Walcott was successful from Welterweight to Light Heavyweight. Difference is, Robinson put on weight, Walcott didn't.

Trinidad's resume as Welterweight champ:

Oscar De La Hoya - Already covered
Hugo Pineda - Journeyman
Pernell Whitaker - Washed up and in and out of rehab
Mahenge Zulu - Who?
Troy Waters - Journeyman
Kevin Lueshing - Who?
Ray Lovato - Who?
Freddie Pendleton - Decent opponant
Rodney Moore - Who?
Larry Barnes - Who?
Roger Turner - Who?
Oba Carr - Who?
Luis Ramon Campas - Journeyman
Hector Camacho - The nutless wonder himself :rofl:
Anthony Stephens - Who?
Luis Gabriel Garcia - Who?
Maurice Blocker - C class fighter already exposed by Simon Brown
Bit harsh I think Poet. I agree he got a gift against DLH, Hopkins was at middle and as well as being a weight to far for Tito many would argue that Hopkins would do that to pretty much any MW.

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor
Its a good list, Whitaker at LW I assume? Must say I can't get my head around having Langford as a welter (and yes I know he did!), I would have put him in the MW's personally but thats a choice thing.
Hmmm ignoring Langford I like Armstrong at 2 after that its toss a coin between Leonard, Gavilan and Napoles. 6 to 12 is a bit of a coin toss too lol. Kind of think Tito might have fought his way through to 6, yes above DLH (I know I know!!)

Its a good list, Whitaker at LW I assume? Must say I can't get my head around having Langford as a welter (and yes I know he did!), I would have put him in the MW's personally but thats a choice thing.
Hmmm ignoring Langford I like Armstrong at 2 after that its toss a coin between Leonard, Gavilan and Napoles. 6 to 12 is a bit of a coin toss too lol. Kind of think Tito might have fought his way through to 6, yes above DLH (I know I know!!)

Yeah, I got Whitaker rated at Lightweight (number 3 in fact). Langford was a natural Welter who sometimes fought as low as Lightweight and, obviously, as high as Heavyweight. With that kind of spread it just made sense to me to put him at his natural weight.....especially since he never really put together any kind of string at a particular weight class, just bounced around a lot.

Poet

Yeah, I got Whitaker rated at Lightweight (number 3 in fact). Langford was a natural Welter who sometimes fought as low as Lightweight and, obviously, as high as Heavyweight. With that kind of spread it just made sense to me to put him at his natural weight.....especially since he never really put together any kind of string at a particular weight class, just bounced around a lot.

Poet
He was some fighter to even be competetive at HW.
I think his best chance is at MW purely on the 6 round Ketchell fight though I guess you could equally put a case for him at lightweight if you take the Gans fight into account!
Must say though if you go welter why no Walcott as the draw was as notable a fight as Langford had at that weight?
You'll note that whilst I'm too lazy to work out my own list I will happily pick holes in yours :)