What a dream match up this would be.

Could the greatest defensive Heavyweight Champion avoid the great combination punching of the Brown Bomber?

What are your thoughts?

Johnson by decision
Johnson by KO

Louis by decision
Louis by KO

Johnson by KO I reckon. He spotted Louis' weakness before anyone else.

A rematch would be a harder pick though.

Louis by late TKO in a great fight. To much stock is put in Johnson spotting a young Louis dropping his left after jabbing: A fault corrected in subsequent fights.

Poet

Louis by late TKO in a great fight. To much stock is put in Johnson spotting a young Louis dropping his left after jabbing: A fault corrected in subsequent fights.

Poet


It can't be ignored though.

It can't be ignored though.

Oh silly me! Here I was under the impression this was prime Johnson Vs. prime Louis when it's really prime Johnson Vs. the young inexperienced Louis that fought Schmeling the first time! Damn do I feel dumb! :hijacked:

Poet

Oh silly me! Here I was under the impression this was prime Johnson Vs. prime Louis when it's really prime Johnson Vs. the young inexperienced Louis that fought Schmeling the first time! Damn do I feel dumb! :hijacked:

Poet

It happens, I won't hold it against you. Unless you want me to? :luvbed:

When Louis was coming up through the ranks Johnson was always high of praise of him as a fighter. And always very impressed with him. But when he wanted to train Louis, and was rejected this frustrated him as he thought he could take Louis to the next step and he saw just how big Louis was going to be and wanted to be a part of it.

But Louis chose to stay with Johnson's rival Jackie Blackburn. Johnson did indeed give Schmeling advice on how to defeat Louis, and he cound't of been more pleased when Louis was defeated. He had bet heavily on Schmeling to win, when Johnson was seen boasting about this, a angry bunch of black fans would attack him and police were called.

Johnson to claimed always claimed Louis's stance was all wrong.

At the beggining Louis liked Johnson, but after being bad mouthed by Johnson, Louis turned and held a strong dislike for Johnson.

Johnson would do everything in his power to get Louis beat. He wanted to help train Jim Braddock for Joe Louis, do Braddock didn't hire him. He helped train 6''5 Abe Simon who Louis would KO. And he later took the vetran Jersey Joe Walcott aside to volunter his services if and when Louis give him a chance

''Johnson's background was savary remembered Walcott, ''I knew whatever fame I may win would be in his shawdow, i did not want to march arm in arm to succes with him. He turned Johnson down.

It can't be ignored though.

what about Johnsons weaknesses? or Louis' advantages for that matter. Louis has the quicker hands and hit's much harder.

Johnson might have the overall strength advantage and has great endurance, but Louis would find that chin of his sooner or later and he just wouldn't see it coming.

Johnson could tie any one up and louis would be no diffrent....though this is all johnson had coupled with slow foot work and slow punches he needed to tie up the compitition so he could actually hit them. refs of now adays wouldnt let this happen and johnson wouldn't have a chance against really any one considering he wouldnt be able to clinch up and throw people around any more.

louis wins by ko 10th round if the fight happned pre 1910 johnson might take it through ko or decision.

Johnson would dominate bumbeater almost as bad as Ali and Holmes would. He would pick him apart and make him quit like Schmeling did.

Johnson fought under different rules. He never saw a precise combination/counter puncher like Louis, most of his opponents tried to take him out with single punches which he could pick off and parry with ease.

In the clinches Johnson could dominate Louis who needed room to get his punches off.

Johnson ties Louis in knots and wins a decision in a short fight or late KO in a really long fight.

Johnson ties Louis in knots and wins a decision in a short fight or late KO in a really long fight.

:ugh: :bs2: :puke: :Flush:

Louis would win this quite significantly, in a one sided battering.. Johnson would be rendered helpless, & sent to hospital after about 3 rounds..

:ugh: :bs2: :puke: :Flush:

Not very tolerant of other people's opinions are you? At your age you should be ashamed.

Not very tolerant of other people's opinions are you? At your age you should be ashamed.

I never claimed I was tolerant: In fact, I'm quite proud of the fact that I'm intolerant of stupidity and the morons who perpatrate it. See "Fools Are Not Suffered Gladly" at the bottom om my sig.

Poet

Not very tolerant of other people's opinions are you? At your age you should be ashamed.

also it would be cool if you defended your opinion better.

i mean how is some one that took 15 rounds to take down a 6 years past prime jeffries gonna take out a prime louis?

I never claimed I was tolerant: In fact, I'm quite proud of the fact that I'm intolerant of stupidity and the morons who perpatrate it. See "Fools Are Not Suffered Gladly" at the bottom om my sig.

Poet

You sound like a guy that never progressed mentally beyond the teenager phase.

There is nothing stupid about picking Johnson to beat Louis or vice versa. To claim otherwise is down right sad.

also it would be cool if you defended your opinion better.

i mean how is some one that took 15 rounds to take down a 6 years past prime jeffries gonna take out a prime louis?

Johnson toyed with Jeffries for 15 rounds on purpose. He could have taken him out much, much sooner. Watch the Unforgiveable Blackness documentary.

You sound like a guy that never progressed mentally beyond the teenager phase.

There is nothing stupid about picking Johnson to beat Louis or vice versa. To claim otherwise is down right sad.

And you sound like a relativist who thinks all ideas are equally valid.....a position I reject as bull****e.

Poet

Joe Louis...idk if he would of stopped Johnson as he had a great chin, i think Johnson's rangy arms would and defense would of caused problems, but all in all i think Louis would of won, close fight though and very good question.

Johnson toyed with Jeffries for 15 rounds on purpose. He could have taken him out much, much sooner. Watch the Unforgiveable Blackness documentary.

and apparently he also let jess willard knock him out but maybe you should watch the video

You sound like a guy that never progressed mentally beyond the teenager phase.

There is nothing stupid about picking Johnson to beat Louis or vice versa. To claim otherwise is down right sad.



Johnson toyed with Jeffries for 15 rounds on purpose. He could have taken him out much, much sooner. Watch the Unforgiveable Blackness documentary.

Don't mind Poet. He's the resident Louis nuthugging arseclown.

Johnson knew Louis' weakness better than anyone else, wanted to beat him more than anyone else and he was a very bad styles matchup for bumbeater. Slick, great defense, inside fighting, strong clinching, power to crack that china chin. Really this is one of the most clear outcomes.

Yet the Joseph nuthugging idiots actually claim he would destroy Johnson with ease:luvbed:

and apparently he also let jess willard knock him out but maybe you should watch the video

Apparently Willard beating Johnson is the equivelant of Marciano decapitating bumbeater.

And as for Johnson "taking a long time to stop Jeffries" you should see Louis who took a very long time to stop a Light Heavyweight, who was absolutely dominating him along the way. Johnson toyed with a former HW champ.

and apparently he also let jess willard knock him out but maybe you should watch the video

You realize Johnson was already convicted of a federal crime at that point right? Note where the fight took place at. Also note how there was no attempt to keep Johnson from fleeing the country...

And the ONLY reason he was convicted of violating the Mann Act was because no one wanted him as Champion anymore. If it wasn't BS we wouldn't be trying to vindicate the man today:


House urging pardon for Jack Johnson

Associated Press

WASHINGTON -- Congress approved a resolution Wednesday urging a presidential pardon for Jack Johnson, the late black heavyweight champion who was imprisoned because of his romantic ties with a white woman.

The House passed the resolution by voice vote, about a month after the Senate approved it.

Johnson became the first black heavyweight champion in 1908, a century before the nation elected Barack Obama its first black president. The Senate resolution was sponsored by Obama's 2008 GOP rival, Sen. John McCain of Arizona.

"I'm pleased the House has joined the Senate in passing a resolution to express the sense of Congress that Jack Johnson, the best heavyweight fighter of his era, should receive a posthumous pardon for being convicted of violating the Mann Act in 1913," said McCain.

The resolution's House sponsor, New York Republican Peter King, said that he was thrilled that after five years of efforts, it's passed both chambers of Congress.

"Jack Johnson is a trailblazer and a legend, whose boxing career was cut short due to unjust laws and racial persecution," King said. "I urge the president to do the right thing and take the final step and grant his pardon."

The White House, which didn't comment after Senate passage, had no immediate comment Wednesday night.

In 1913, Johnson was convicted of violating the Mann Act, which made it illegal to transport women across state lines for immoral purposes. The law has since been heavily amended, but has not been repealed.

Johnson fled the country after his conviction, but agreed years later to return and serve a 10-month jail sentence. He tried to renew his boxing career after leaving prison, but failed to regain his title. He died in a car crash in 1946 at age 68.

The resolution approved by Congress says that Johnson should receive a posthumous pardon "for the racially motivated conviction in 1913 that diminished the athletic, cultural, and historic significance of Jack Johnson and unduly tarnished his reputation." It says a pardon would "expunge a racially motivated abuse of the prosecutorial authority of the federal government from the annals of criminal justice in the United States."

Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., D-Ill., noted that Vernon Forrest, a former boxing champion who was killed when he exchanged gunfire with robbery suspects over the weekend, had championed Johnson's cause -- including meeting with members of Congress a few years ago.

Jackson praised Forrest for his "consciousness, for his willingness to fight for something bigger than himself, and for the extraordinary legacy that he has left us all."

Filmmaker Ken Burns helped form the Committee to Pardon Jack Johnson, which filed a petition with the Justice Department in 2004 that was never acted on. Burns' 2005 documentary, "Unforgivable Blackness: The Rise and Fall of Jack Johnson," examined the case against Johnson and the sentencing judge's admitted desire to "send a message" to black men about relationships with white women.

Johnson, a native of Galveston, Texas, won the 1908 world heavyweight title after police in Australia stopped his 14-round match against the severely battered Canadian world champion, Tommy Burns -- leading to a search for a "Great White Hope" who could beat Johnson.

Two years later, Jim Jeffries, the American world titleholder Johnson had tried for years to fight, returned to the ring from retirement but lost in a match called "The Battle of the Century," resulting in deadly riots.

"It has now been over 100 years since Jack Johnson won the heavyweight title, and it's time we restore his reputation with a pardon that is long overdue," said King, who spars at boxing gym on Long Island.


Source: http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=4365373&campaign=rss&source=BOXINGHeadlines

Johnson under old-school rules (stoppage in 30-40 rounds), Louis under the 15-round system, although I believe Johnson would make it interesting.

not sure what your talking about obama.

I was talking about how back when johnson beat jeffries the govement put an act inplace that made it so videos of prize fighters wernt alowed to cross state lines or be shown in movie theaters.

due to this the johnson jeffries bout wasnt shown to the general public till the 60/70's. more so was the fight between johnson and willard where willard clearly gets johnson in an opening and knocks johnson TFO as one of the better ko's ive seen, but since the video was not allowed to be show to the rest of the world for many years to come so johnson felt he could tell every one that he threw the match on purpose.......which im sure is pretty similar to him saying he was toying with jeffries for 15 rounds.....

not sure what your talking about obama.

I was talking about how back when johnson beat jeffries the govement put an act inplace that made it so videos of prize fighters wernt alowed to cross state lines or be shown in movie theaters.

due to this the johnson jeffries bout wasnt shown to the general public till the 60/70's. more so was the fight between johnson and willard where willard clearly gets johnson in an opening and knocks johnson TFO as one of the better ko's ive seen, but since the video was not allowed to be show to the rest of the world for many years to come so johnson felt he could tell every one that he threw the match on purpose.......which im sure is pretty similar to him saying he was toying with jeffries for 15 rounds.....

You're so off base it's unbelievable. You don't even want to listen to the facts because you're so locked in to your beliefs that anything that challenges them is automatically dismissed by defense mechanism.

louis would win over johnson by tko in a late round i think, because louis is alil bit more defensive then johnson is

You're so off base it's unbelievable. You don't even want to listen to the facts because you're so locked in to your beliefs that anything that challenges them is automatically dismissed by defense mechanism.

well allrighty then

also it would be cool if you defended your opinion better.

i mean how is some one that took 15 rounds to take down a 6 years past prime jeffries gonna take out a prime louis?

Johnson carried jeffries.

We need to remember that Johnson had 12 lbs on Louis,and was stronger.

Johson is the greatest defensive fighter of all-time,and would not give Louis many openings.Johnson would also tie-up Louis easily.

Johnson would win a 15 or 20 round UD-10-5 or 14-6

Johnson carried jeffries.

We need to remember that Johnson had 12 lbs on Louis,and was stronger.

Johson is the greatest defensive fighter of all-time,and would not give Louis many openings.Johnson would also tie-up Louis easily.

Johnson would win a 15 or 20 round UD-10-5 or 14-6

No he didn't. Louis was bigger than Johnson whose prime weight was around 190 lbs, although he was comfortable at 205 when he was over 30 years of age.

Louis generally weighed around 200-205 lbs and at his peak 208 lbs. 30+ year old Louis liked to fight at 210-215.

No he didn't. Louis was bigger than Johnson whose prime weight was around 190 lbs, although he was comfortable at 205 when he was over 30 years of age.

Louis generally weighed around 200-205 lbs and at his peak 208 lbs. 30+ year old Louis liked to fight at 210-215.

I just read where Johnson weighed in at 220lbs when he got older,and 210lbs in his prime.Louis weighed 198 lbs against Conn,When in his prime.

Regaurdless,Johnson's amazing defensive skills and ability to tie up Louis,makes it a long night for Joe.Lois would have to KO Johnson to win,and I don't see that happening.

I just read where Johnson weighed in at 220lbs when he got older,and 210lbs in his prime.Louis weighed 198 lbs against Conn,When in his prime.

Regaurdless,Johnson's amazing defensive skills and ability to tie up Louis,makes it a long night for Joe.Lois would have to KO Johnson to win,and I don't see that happening.

I don't think Johnson was 210 lbs in his prime. People forget it but he was well over 30 years old himself when he fought Jeffries/Flynn.

He was 30 years old when he fought Tommy Burns for the title, and weighed 192 lbs. Much earlier on he used to fight at around 168 lbs.

Louis said he was weight-drained for the Conn fight. A year later he weighed 207 and 208 lbs against Buddy Baer and Abe Simon, two of his best performances.

I don't think Johnson was 210 lbs in his prime. People forget it but he was well over 30 years old himself when he fought Jeffries/Flynn.

He was 30 years old when he fought Tommy Burns for the title, and weighed 192 lbs. Much earlier on he used to fight at around 168 lbs.

Louis said he was weight-drained for the Conn fight. A year later he weighed 207 and 208 lbs against Buddy Baer and Abe Simon, two of his best performances.

I will take your word for it over the book I read about ALL the Heavyweight Champions.That's how much credibility I put in you as a poster.

Was a 30 year old Johnson still in his prime in your opinion?

Thank You

Don't mind Poet. He's the resident Louis nuthugging arseclown.

Johnson knew Louis' weakness better than anyone else, wanted to beat him more than anyone else and he was a very bad styles matchup for bumbeater. Slick, great defense, inside fighting, strong clinching, power to crack that china chin. Really this is one of the most clear outcomes.

Yet the Joseph nuthugging idiots actually claim he would destroy Johnson with ease:luvbed:
Slimey there is another thread Louis v Jimmy Young, I for one await your take on that with baited breath.

I will take your word for it over the book I read about ALL the Heavyweight Champions.That's how much credibility I put in you as a poster.

Was a 30 year old Johnson still in his prime in your opinion?

Thank You

On film he looks probably his best against Tommy Burns. It's my opinion however that he may have seen some of his best days before winning the title.

Louis said he was weight-drained for the Conn fight.

How is a Heavyweight weight drained? Was the fight at a catch weight or something?

How is a Heavyweight weight drained? Was the fight at a catch weight or something?

From the book Billy Conn: The Pittsburgh Kid:

"Louis, quite concerned with Conn's speed, insisted at coming in at around 200, a few pounds less than his normal fighting weight. His handlers disagreed with him, feeling that the weight loss might drain him after six fights in six months. Joe got his way, and got down to an even 200 by fight day."

http://books.google.fi/books?id=B6bqsG1kQUkC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false

"In his autobiography Louis stated that in order to stave off such talk he made the mistake of dehydrating himself prior to the fight so that could weigh in at less than 200 pounds. “I always use to lay off the day before a fight. But the last day I trained, dieted and drank as little water as possible. Chappie (his trainer Jack Blackburn) was mad as hell.” Joe’s sense of fairness left him critically drained as the fight progressed."

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis_conn.html

From the book Billy Conn: The Pittsburgh Kid:

"Louis, quite concerned with Conn's speed, insisted at coming in at around 200, a few pounds less than his normal fighting weight. His handlers disagreed with him, feeling that the weight loss might drain him after six fights in six months. Joe got his way, and got down to an even 200 by fight day."

http://books.google.fi/books?id=B6bqsG1kQUkC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_navlinks_s#v=onepage&q=&f=false

"In his autobiography Louis stated that in order to stave off such talk he made the mistake of dehydrating himself prior to the fight so that could weigh in at less than 200 pounds. “I always use to lay off the day before a fight. But the last day I trained, dieted and drank as little water as possible. Chappie (his trainer Jack Blackburn) was mad as hell.” Joe’s sense of fairness left him critically drained as the fight progressed."

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/louis_conn.html

In Joe Louis's book he said Conn was like a damn nat,lol

Off topic but I think it was funny

Ah, thanks.

You realize Johnson was already convicted of a federal crime at that point right? Note where the fight took place at. Also note how there was no attempt to keep Johnson from fleeing the country...

And the ONLY reason he was convicted of violating the Mann Act was because no one wanted him as Champion anymore. If it wasn't BS we wouldn't be trying to vindicate the man today:


Johnson was convicted of violating the Mann Act because he did violate it. What with pimping whores out of his Chicago restaurant, providing his ex-wife (and prostitute) with the money to set up her own brothel and transporting whores across state lines, I'd say he was up to his neck in it.

There's a lot of revisionism surrounding Johnson these days by well-meaning but imo misguided people. He was a remarkable character for sure, but there's a lot more to the story than him being a simple victim and he actually did very little to further the cause of African Americans.

There were far worse abuses of the Mann Act than in Johnson's case (in fact a wide variety of people fell foul of it - among them Luis Firpo, Frank Lloyd Wright, Charlie Chaplin and Chuck Berry) and I don't recall any similar campaigns for them to be pardoned.

There's a lot of revisionism surrounding Johnson these days by well-meaning but imo misguided people. He was a remarkable character for sure, but there's a lot more to the story than him being a simple victim and he actually did very little to further the cause of African Americans.



Think it started with the 1967 play the Great White Hope. Very much a play for its time and touching on race during the civil rights era struck a cord with many. Whilst his story does give a good skeleton to such a story it is a shame that they didn't have a more sympathetic character than Johnson as a hero. Think the only cause that Johnson really cared about was Jack Johnson. Some fighter though I believe that he was 30 years ahead of his time.

No he didn't. Louis was bigger than Johnson whose prime weight was around 190 lbs, although he was comfortable at 205 when he was over 30 years of age.

Louis generally weighed around 200-205 lbs and at his peak 208 lbs. 30+ year old Louis liked to fight at 210-215.

I just did a little research on Johnson.......

He only lost 2 fights out of about his 1st hundred fights,and both losses were early in his career.

Seems he weighed 205lbs when he fought Stanley Ketchel.

Just read out of a book that talks about EVERY heavyweight champion,and everything about each fighter.Said Johnson was still very good at 220lbs.

Me thinks niether Louis or Johnson would have much of a weight advantage?

Correct me if I'm wrong.....Thank You

I just did a little research on Johnson.......

He only lost 2 fights out of about his 1st hundred fights,and both losses were early in his career.

Seems he weighed 205lbs when he fought Stanley Ketchel.

Just read out of a book that talks about EVERY heavyweight champion,and everything about each fighter.Said Johnson was still very good at 220lbs.

Me thinks niether Louis or Johnson would have much of a weight advantage?

Correct me if I'm wrong.....Thank You

Louis would have a weight advantage prime for prime.

This is Jack Johnson in his prime (in my opinion), he weighed 192 lbs:

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Johnson was certainly very good even at 200+ lbs but I'm not sure if he was in his prime anymore at 32-33 years of age.

Louis would have a weight advantage prime for prime.

This is Jack Johnson in his prime (in my opinion), he weighed 192 lbs:

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Johnson was certainly very good even at 200+ lbs but I'm not sure if he was in his prime anymore at 32-33 years of age.

Who would you pick prime vs prime?

Also,who would you pick when Johnson weighed 205 like against Ketchel?

Would it go the distance?

Thank You