How do you think a fight would go between these guys...

Lewis vs. Foreman

Lewis vs. Frazier

Lewis vs. Ali

Lewis vs. Holmes

Lewis vs. Prime Tyson

Lewis vs. Joe Louis

Quick answers, some may be unpopular:


Lewis vs. Foreman: I'd fancy Foreman's chances to find a KO at some point.

Lewis vs. Frazier: I think Lewis would score a KO/TKO within the first half of the fight. Frazier would have a left hooks chance though!

Lewis vs. Ali: Ali by a very tough, fairly close decision.

Lewis vs. Holmes: Holmes also by a tough, close decision.

Lewis vs. Prime Tyson: Tyson by KO, probably within 5 rounds. A peak Tyson will almost certainly find Lewis's chin.

Lewis vs. Joe Louis: Sorry guys, I think Lennox scores a late stoppage, he has so much more than the Schmelling of 1936. But really.......if Louis found Lennox's chin first he'd have a great chance too.

Quick answers, some may be unpopular:


Lewis vs. Foreman: I'd fancy Foreman's chances to find a KO at some point.

Lewis vs. Frazier: I think Louis would score a KO/TKO within the first half of the fight. Frazier would have a left hooks chance though!

Lewis vs. Ali: Ali by a very tough, fairly close decision.

Lewis vs. Holmes: Holmes also by a tough, close decision.

Lewis vs. Prime Tyson: Tyson by KO, probably within 5 rounds. A peak Tyson will almost certainly find Lewis's chin.

Lewis vs. Joe Louis: Sorry guys, I think Lennox scores a late stoppage, he has so much more than the Schmelling of 1936. But really.......if Louis found Lennox's chin first he'd have a great chance too.
Lewis v Foreman -- Foreman KO2
Lewis v Frazier --- Frazier KO4
Lewis v Ali ----- Ali KO7
Lewis v Louis --- Louis KO5
Lewis v Holmes -- Holmes KO9

Lennox Lewis does not have what it takes to beat these great fighters, if McCall & Rahman can put Lewis lights out then these ATGs would have no trouble doing it, Foreman would be far to much of a beast for Lewis and i see it going similar to Foreman v Norton, Lewis ran backwards to get a decision over David Tua yet Tua did not know how to cut off the ring and Bob-and-Weave his way in But Joe Frazier was the greatest ever at it and i see Frazier Bombing Out Lewis, Muhammad Ali beats Lewis at every aspect of this sport and would play with Lewis before knocking him out, Joe Louis was an unbelievable fighting machine and would have no trouble measuring up Lewis then poleaxing him, Larry Holmes although not in the same league as the other 4 ATGs would still have far to much for Lennox Lewis and after softening up Lewis in the first half of the fight Holmes would move in for the kill and knock out Lewis.

Hi Sonnybox, wow....individual round predictions of knockouts!

You missed Tyson, there was 'six' all time greats, but I know you agree with me on this prediction!!!!

I did actually pick most of the guys to beat Lewis and I did give Frazier and Louis good chances too. I'm suprised that after seeing Lewis fight live you dont rate him a bit higher. Did you lose money or a bit of reputation on the McCall fight?

To be fair though Lewis's chin did tend to hold up to most punches, McCall and Rahman certainly have harder right hands than Ali and Holmes, which is why I think these two get decision wins for me.

Hi Sonnybox, wow....individual round predictions of knockouts!

You missed Tyson, there was 'six' all time greats, but I know you agree with me on this prediction!!!!

I did actually pick most of the guys to beat Lewis and I did give Frazier and Louis good chances too. I'm suprised that after seeing Lewis fight live you dont rate him a bit higher. Did you lose money or a bit of reputation on the McCall fight?

To be fair though Lewis's chin did tend to hold up to most punches, McCall and Rahman certainly have harder right hands than Ali and Holmes, which is why I think these two get decision wins for me.

in the early 90s i thought Lennox was the next great heavyweight champion in waiting, but i cannot forget what i seen the night McCall KOd him, it was not a lucky punch, it was not a fast count, it was not called off to quickly, McCall had his number, when the fighters made their ring entrance McCall came into the arena with Eddie Mustapha muhammad, Greg Page and Manny Stewart, Page was shouting and psyching up McCall as was Eddie Mustapha, McCall`s body looked like he was carved out of ebony, he looked rock hard, Lewis also looked confident, before the introductions Don King was introduced and he held up a large-sized cheque which he had placed with William Hill bookmakers in London, it was a £200,000 win at odds of 5/2 McCall.. 14000 Lewis fans in attendance and McCall silenced us all with one devastating right-hand, Lewis hit the deck hard and it was complete silence in the arena, the referee waved the fight over when Lewis almost fell into him with no legs under himself, McCall jumped up in the air with his legs out in front of himself and touch his toes, he walked around the ring shouting to us fans,"i told you, i told you all i would KO him"... we all sat there stunned, after around 10 minutes Lewis and his handlers started to leave the ring, Lewis had to be helped down the steps, as they went past me (6ft away) i could see that Lewis eyes was still glassy,"he was still out" and on unsteady legs... i knew there and then that Lennox Lewis was not The real deal.. i had watched him beat Ruddock at Earls Court on a fantastic night for British Boxing, yet on reflection i think Ruddock was "Damaged Goods", i watched Lewis struggle to beat Bruno in Cardiff, it was terribly one-sided IMO in favour of Bruno.. i just cannot give Lewis any hope of beating ATGs like Louis, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Tyson etc

in the early 90s i thought Lennox was the next great heavyweight champion in waiting, but i cannot forget what i seen the night McCall KOd him, it was not a lucky punch, i was not a fast count, it was not called off to quickly, McCall had his number, when the fighters made their ring entrance McCall came into the arena with Eddie Mustapha muhammad, Greg Page and Manny Stewart, Page was shouting and psyching up McCall as was Eddie Mustapha, McCall`s body looked like he was carved out of ebony, he looked rock hard, Lewis also looked confident, before the introductions Don King was introduced and he held up a large-sized cheque which he had placed with William Hill bookmakers in London, it was a £200,000 win at odds of 5/2 McCall.. 14000 Lewis fans in attendance and McCall silenced us all with one devastating right-hand, Lewis hit the deck hard and it was complete silence in the arena, the referee waved the fight over when Lewis almost fell into him with no legs under himself, McCall jumped up in the air with his legs out in front of himself and touch his toes, he walked around the ring shouting to us fans,"i told you, i told you all i would KO him"... we all sat there stunned, after around 10 minutes Lewis and his handlers started to leave the ring, Lewis had to be helped down the steps, as they went past me (6ft away) i could see that Lewis eyes was still glassy,"he was still out" and on unsteady legs... i knew there and then that Lennox Lewis was not The real deal.. i had watched him beat Ruddock at Earls Court on a fantastic night for British Boxing, yet on reflection i think Ruddock was "Damaged Goods", i watched Lewis struggle to beat Bruno in Cardiff, it was terribly one-sided IMO in favour of Bruno.. i just cannot give Lewis any hope of beating ATGs like Louis, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Tyson etc

Wow! I see a feud with Inferno on the horizon :boxing:

Poet

Hi Sonnybox, the fights you have attended make you very priviliged! Fantastic.

Are you sure you're not being a bit harsh on Lennox for not having a great ability to hold a punch? I know both knockouts were one punch affairs but it only happened twice in 15 years or so of a pro career. Once early, once late in his career.

Joe Louis was knocked out early and late in his career too. Joe Frazier's chin wasn't cast iron either. I'd wager that the right hands from McCall and Rahman would possibly knock these guys out too were they to have landed.

As for poor Frank Bruno, with the exception of the Tyson fights, he outboxed every guy he fought. Even when he lost to Bonecrusher, Witherspoon and Lewis he was ahead on the cards at the time of stoppage. Could it be that you are underselling Bruno's vastly underated boxing ability? With a better chin, stamina and defense Frank Bruno could have done so much better. He could have been one of the more outstanding heavyweights of the 90s.

I honestly think a fully fit and focused Lewis could beat most of them on the list. If not all of them.

I suppose when you see Lewis at his best destroying the likes of Ruddock and Golota its easy to think that he'd beat anyone in history. If I was a real nuthugger I'd have a go at arguing how he could beat all the guys from your list, I just wouldn't hand on heart believe what I'd be writing though.

The problem is, Lewis got knocked out by single punches. No matter how fit and focused he is, Foreman and Tyson have the skills and the power to find that chin. They in turn have the chins to absorb what Lennox could throw at them early, so even if Lennox were do do a boxing masterclass early it would be crazy to think he would avoid their bombs all night. It would only take one from either, no one would dream of arguing that Rahman or McCall could punch as hard as Foreman or Tyson.

No two ways about it Lewis was a superb technical boxer when he wanted to be, every punch in the book, speed, power, combinations, good defense. But sadly bettered for ability by peak Ali and peak Holmes, who quite simply had faster hands and feet and were harder to catch clean. I do think they'd both struggle though with Lennox's power, reach and sheer weight and strength in the clinches. I doubt either Holmes or Ali would win convincingly.

in the early 90s i thought Lennox was the next great heavyweight champion in waiting, but i cannot forget what i seen the night McCall KOd him, it was not a lucky punch, it was not a fast count, it was not called off to quickly, McCall had his number, when the fighters made their ring entrance McCall came into the arena with Eddie Mustapha muhammad, Greg Page and Manny Stewart, Page was shouting and psyching up McCall as was Eddie Mustapha, McCall`s body looked like he was carved out of ebony, he looked rock hard, Lewis also looked confident, before the introductions Don King was introduced and he held up a large-sized cheque which he had placed with William Hill bookmakers in London, it was a £200,000 win at odds of 5/2 McCall.. 14000 Lewis fans in attendance and McCall silenced us all with one devastating right-hand, Lewis hit the deck hard and it was complete silence in the arena, the referee waved the fight over when Lewis almost fell into him with no legs under himself, McCall jumped up in the air with his legs out in front of himself and touch his toes, he walked around the ring shouting to us fans,"i told you, i told you all i would KO him"... we all sat there stunned, after around 10 minutes Lewis and his handlers started to leave the ring, Lewis had to be helped down the steps, as they went past me (6ft away) i could see that Lewis eyes was still glassy,"he was still out" and on unsteady legs... i knew there and then that Lennox Lewis was not The real deal.. i had watched him beat Ruddock at Earls Court on a fantastic night for British Boxing, yet on reflection i think Ruddock was "Damaged Goods", i watched Lewis struggle to beat Bruno in Cardiff, it was terribly one-sided IMO in favour of Bruno.. i just cannot give Lewis any hope of beating ATGs like Louis, Frazier, Ali, Foreman, Tyson etc

I wonder if the never-heard-from-before-or-since Mexican referee who stopped Lewis on his feet despite beating the count got a slice of that? :)

Considering most of those guys listed never beat someone with Lewis' combination of size, power and skills, I dunno how you can't even give him a smidgen of a chance against any of them. Well actually I can. For me, Lewis on his best night has a great chance of beating any great heavyweight in history.

vs Ali - Ali SD
vs Frazier - Lewis TKO
vs Foreman - Foreman KO
vs Tyson - Tyson KO
vs Holmes - Lewis UD

I wonder if the never-heard-from-before-or-since Mexican referee who stopped Lewis on his feet despite beating the count got a slice of that? :)

Considering most of those guys listed never beat someone with Lewis' combination of size, power and skills, I dunno how you can't even give him a smidgen of a chance against any of them. Well actually I can. For me, Lewis on his best night has a great chance of beating any great heavyweight in history.

vs Ali - Ali SD
vs Frazier - Lewis TKO
vs Foreman - Foreman KO
vs Tyson - Tyson KO
vs Holmes - Lewis UD

interesting that you pick lewis to stop a prime joe frazier. lewis coundt handle the power of McCall or Rahman.

Hi Sonnybox, the fights you have attended make you very priviliged! Fantastic.

Are you sure you're not being a bit harsh on Lennox for not having a great ability to hold a punch? I know both knockouts were one punch affairs but it only happened twice in 15 years or so of a pro career. Once early, once late in his career.

Joe Louis was knocked out early and late in his career too. Joe Frazier's chin wasn't cast iron either. I'd wager that the right hands from McCall and Rahman would possibly knock these guys out too were they to have landed.

As for poor Frank Bruno, with the exception of the Tyson fights, he outboxed every guy he fought. Even when he lost to Bonecrusher, Witherspoon and Lewis he was ahead on the cards at the time of stoppage. Could it be that you are underselling Bruno's vastly underated boxing ability? With a better chin, stamina and defense Frank Bruno could have done so much better. He could have been one of the more outstanding heavyweights of the 90s.

Sugarj some very good points and you may well be correct maybe i am being harsh on Lennox, i am not saying Lennox Lewis was not a `class-act` because he most certainly was a great fighter and he deserves all the admiration he gets from fight-fans, however IMO i rate Frazier, Ali, Louis, Foreman, Tyson & Holmes on a level higher than i place Lennox Lewis.. if i go to my fight-film collect and select a dvd to watch,it will almost never be a Lennox Lewis fight, because of his cautious approach to the game after the McCall defeat, Lennox was bottom of the league as far as a "crowd-pleasing value-for-money Fighter" and that kind of approach would not stand him in good stead against the above list of fighters, even when Lennox fought Mike Tyson in 2001 that version of Tyson was completely `shot` yet the 1st round Tyson gave it a go for 50 seconds and Lennox was demoralized, Tyson did not have the strength, energy or the legs under him to keep up his attack, Lennox withstood the onslaught and still fought cautious over the next 7rds before landing a KO punch to bring an end to the contest.. Frazier, Foreman, Louis, Ali and Louis would have all knocked out that version of Mike Tyson within 3rds.. Frank Bruno i agree with your points, he is very under-rated and the night he lost to Lennox Lewis he was seconds off winning when Lewis in desperation landed a punch which he has never used in his career before or since, which turned the tide in his favor, yes that showed that Lennox has the will to win but against the more elite opposition i cannot see Lennox get away with it.... i would rate Hasim Rahman as the worst undisputed heavyweight champion in history, i dont think his sunday punch would bother the best.

I wonder if the never-heard-from-before-or-since Mexican referee who stopped Lewis on his feet despite beating the count got a slice of that? :)

Considering most of those guys listed never beat someone with Lewis' combination of size, power and skills, I dunno how you can't even give him a smidgen of a chance against any of them. Well actually I can. For me, Lewis on his best night has a great chance of beating any great heavyweight in history.
vs Ali - Ali SD
vs Frazier - Lewis TKO
vs Foreman - Foreman KO
vs Tyson - Tyson KO
vs Holmes - Lewis UD

That's exactly what I think. When Lewis put 100% into a fight, he looked nearly unstoppable.

interesting that you pick lewis to stop a prime joe frazier. lewis coundt handle the power of McCall or Rahman.

McCall and Rahman would have about 30lbs on a prime Frazier, who never showed that kind of one shot power against a quality opponent Lewis' size. I've said before I think the McCall stoppage was premature, and Lewis did show he could absorb big punches from the likes of Klitschko, Bruno and Briggs.

I'm not saying Frazier couldn't beat Lewis, I'd give him a chance against most any heavyweight in history. I just think with Joe's style and size, sooner or later he walks into a big Lewis right and that would be that.

Lewis took shots from bigger punchers and stayed on his feet.

I think Lewis will be forever judged by those two mistakes he made. Such a shame really.

Lewis took shots from bigger punchers and stayed on his feet.

I think Lewis will be forever judged by those two mistakes he made. Such a shame really.


Those two mistakes were flaws in his game not a lack of focus.

Lewis used to turn his right hand all the way over to get maximum power and McCall set him up by rolling the right hand and hitting him with a counter left hook right hand.

Rahman backed him up to the ropes where he had no where to go, he dropped his hands a boom! Lewis went back in a straight line.

Rahman tried that 1 2 combination a few times before he landed that punch and McCall tried the rock' n right hand before he landed to,

Lewis's best wins were against fighters past their best. I dont think Holyfield had a lot left as his performance over Mike would lead you to believe, i just think it was a Marg vs Molsey type scenario where Tyson was tailor made for Holyfield.

Holyfield looked terrible against Riddick Bowe in their 3rd fight and his fights with Ruiz proved to me how far gone he was, he should of lost all 3 fights to Ruiz because Ruiz was robbed the first time.


Lewis would of been KTFO if his fight with Mercer had gone another 1/2 rounds.

Lewis was also wobbled by Shannon Briggs and looked atrocious against Vitali, he was around about the same age Holyfield was when he fought Vitali, only Holyfield has been in many many wars where as Lewis hasn't.

I consider Lennox to be on the chinny side which is what keeps me from moving him to ATG status. My attitude toward his chin isn't based on the McCall and Rahman fights (those punches would have KOed all but the best chins) but rather the number of times I saw Lewis wobbled by some less than steller punchers.

Poet

I consider Lennox to be on the chinny side which is what keeps me from moving him to ATG status. My attitude toward his chin isn't based on the McCall and Rahman fights (those punches would have KOed all but the best chins) but rather the number of times I saw Lewis wobbled by some less than steller punchers.

Poet

I dont consider Lewis chinny but he did seem to be one of those fighters that was capable of being hurt regularly if you can land good shot.

Mercer, Briggs, Vitali all had him wobbled or buzzed imo and as you said he was knocked out by McCall and Rahman who are less than stellar.


Ironic that Steward helped Lenny regroup from his losses by helping him adopt a more cautious approach, then Steward asked him to step it up and he got himself hurt again (Briggs)

Hi Sonnybox, I totally agree with you about the Tyson that fought Lewis. No comparision to the guy in the late 80s.

I did give Tyson the first round and to be honest there were times when Lennox did look tentative and a bit nervous. I think Manny Steward picked up on this and when Tyson did start to flag, Manny gave Lewis hell in the corner pressing him to pursue the KO. I'm sure a peak Tyson would beat Lewis.

Your right Merseysideblood, If Lennox didn't receive those two knockouts and indeed proved a chin worthy of Ali or Holmes and retired undefeated I'm sure many would cite him as a top five ATG heavyweight, maybe even the best. I'd still venture that Ali or Holmes would decision him though. Speed, elusiveness and mobility being the keys.

As for Mr Holyfield, the fights that Evander had (post prime) with a near prime Lewis have convinced me that a peak 'Real Deal' most likely would have decisioned Lewis. I therefore rate Holyfield higher up my own ATG heavyweight listing, but only by one or two places.

I dont consider Lewis chinny but he did seem to be one of those fighters that was capable of being hurt regularly if you can land good shot.

Mercer, Briggs, Vitali all had him wobbled or buzzed imo and as you said he was knocked out by McCall and Rahman who are less than stellar.

Ironic that Steward helped Lenny regroup from his losses by helping him adopt a more cautious approach, then Steward asked him to step it up and he got himself hurt again (Briggs)

What I find laughable is the people who justify Wlad's timid style by saying "Lewis did it". The big difference is Lennox was much more active. Wlad's punch output is pathetic and Lennox was never that inactive in his fights. Of course Wlad is compensating for his atrocious stamina by limiting what he does and I can't recall anyone ever questioning Lennox's conditioning.....except for maybe some one off examples like the first Rahman fight where he didn't train at all.

Poet

What I find laughable is the people who justify Wlad's timid style by saying "Lewis did it". The big difference is Lennox was much more active. Wlad's punch output is pathetic and Lennox was never that inactive in his fights. Of course Wlad is compensating for his atrocious stamina by limiting what he does and I can't recall anyone ever questioning Lennox's conditioning.....except for maybe some one off examples like the first Rahman fight where he didn't train at all.

Poet

The only time i can recall Lewis fighting THAT timid was against Tua.

Lewis thought his way through fights post McCall but as you said he was not scared to throw his own shots because of fear of getting hit back, he still got his own shots off.

Wlad has a good jab and that is all i give him credit for to be honest, oh and i like that way he hooks off the jab but apart from that.:dunno:

Those two mistakes were flaws in his game not a lack of focus.

Lewis used to turn his right hand all the way over to get maximum power and McCall set him up by rolling the right hand and hitting him with a counter left hook right hand.

Rahman backed him up to the ropes where he had no where to go, he dropped his hands a boom! Lewis went back in a straight line.

Rahman tried that 1 2 combination a few times before he landed that punch and McCall tried the rock' n right hand before he landed to,

Lewis's best wins were against fighters past their best. I dont think Holyfield had a lot left as his performance over Mike would lead you to believe, i just think it was a Marg vs Molsey type scenario where Tyson was tailor made for Holyfield.

Holyfield looked terrible against Riddick Bowe in their 3rd fight and his fights with Ruiz proved to me how far gone he was, he should of lost all 3 fights to Ruiz because Ruiz was robbed the first time.


Lewis would of been KTFO if his fight with Mercer had gone another 1/2 rounds.

Lewis was also wobbled by Shannon Briggs and looked atrocious against Vitali, he was around about the same age Holyfield was when he fought Vitali, only Holyfield has been in many many wars where as Lewis hasn't.

If it wasn't lack of focus, how come he easily won the rematches?

Surley if it was a serious flaw to his game, Rahman and Mccall could have done it again.

If it wasn't lack of focus, how come he easily won the rematches?

Surley if it was a serious flaw to his game, Rahman and Mccall could have done it again.

Simple!


Because he identified the flaws and corrected them after the fact.

Quick answers, some may be unpopular:


Lewis vs. Foreman: I'd fancy Foreman's chances to find a KO at some point.

Lewis vs. Frazier: I think Lewis would score a KO/TKO within the first half of the fight. Frazier would have a left hooks chance though!

Lewis vs. Ali: Ali by a very tough, fairly close decision.

Lewis vs. Holmes: Holmes also by a tough, close decision.

Lewis vs. Prime Tyson: Tyson by KO, probably within 5 rounds. A peak Tyson will almost certainly find Lewis's chin.

Lewis vs. Joe Louis: Sorry guys, I think Lennox scores a late stoppage, he has so much more than the Schmelling of 1936. But really.......if Louis found Lennox's chin first he'd have a great chance too.i agree with most of what you say but :wtf1:I think your crazy ....lennox would beat tyson in any era :boxing:

Tua is an underrated win for Lewis.. Sure Lewis spent the whole fight avoiding Tua's right, but Lewis comfortably won 11 out of the 12 rounds.. Tua actually connected once, with a massive right around mid way, but Lewis took it comfortably.. Lewis did some terrific feints in this fight to.. It was probably his best pure boxing performance..
As for Lewis defeating Tyson in any era, I'd say yes, apart from 85-88.. Don't see anyone beating Tyson around then..

Tua is an underrated win for Lewis.. Sure Lewis spent the whole fight avoiding Tua's right, but Lewis comfortably won 11 out of the 12 rounds.. Tua actually connected once, with a massive right around mid way, but Lewis took it comfortably.. Lewis did some terrific feints in this fight to.. It was probably his best pure boxing performance..
As for Lewis defeating Tyson in any era, I'd say yes, apart from 85-88.. Don't see anyone beating Tyson around then..

As for Lewis defeating Tyson in any era, I'd say yes, apart from 85-88.. Don't see anyone beating Tyson around then..

I wouldn't go that far: Tyson may have looked spectacular against the B and C grade fighters that made up his opposition during that period but I wouldn't lable that incarnation of him the best Heavyweight ever.....and he was far from unbeatable.

Poet

I wouldn't go that far: Tyson may have looked spectacular against the B and C grade fighters that made up his opposition during that period but I wouldn't lable that incarnation of him the best Heavyweight ever.....and he was far from unbeatable.

Poet
In hindsight I agree, but at the time, he put the fear of Christ into the whole world.. The problem being... He could back it up.. Pure phsycology prevailed..

In hindsight I agree, but at the time, he put the fear of Christ into the whole world.. The problem being... He could back it up.. Pure phsycology prevailed..

Yeah, but Foreman, Liston, and even Louis did pretty much the same thing.....and could back it up of course.

Poet

Yeah, but Foreman, Liston, and even Louis did pretty much the same thing.....and could back it up of course.

Poet
They wern't in the same league when it came to explosive hand speed..
Tyson's KO's are some of the most chilling in boxing history.. With the exception of Louis, you can't say the KO's inflicted by Foreman & Liston were anywhere near as clinical, or as spectacular.. Also, Tyson talked a better talk, for the time in question.. He'd glamorize hurting people, in a way the others were too gentlemanly to even consider..

In hindsight I agree, but at the time, he put the fear of Christ into the whole world.. The problem being... He could back it up.. Pure phsycology prevailed..
Tyson had a window of the Liston effect for a couple of years most of the fighters facing him were beaten before they stepped in the ring. Then Buster came along and the rest is history. It just needs a fighter with a bit of belief to expose the other fighters weaknesses, all fighters have them.

I dont wanna sound like im ****ting on Lewis because im not, i like Lewis.

Lewis was not just a big man, he was a skilled defensive counter puncher who had a good jab had an extremely powerful right hand and a devastating uppercut.

Im just a bit bothered by the notion that a few people seem to think along the lines of Lewis bigger man = beating Holmes, Ali etc.

Size is not everything and to call a fight as simplistically as that is nonsense imo.

Kenny is crazy for sayin what he said, there are so many other intangibles to why Lewis could/would win and why he would not win against SOME of those guys. Im not one of these guys that thinks along the lines of...............if you dont fight in black and white you can be considered to beat another ATG from the 60/70 etc, but i honestly dont believe Lewis would beat Holmes or Ali based on the fact Lewis is not great offensively, he is by trade a defensive minded counter puncher, if i thought Lewis would beat Holmes or Ali i would be honest and call it that way.

They wern't in the same league when it came to explosive hand speed..
Tyson's KO's are some of the most chilling in boxing history.. With the exception of Louis, you can't say the KO's inflicted by Foreman & Liston were anywhere near as clinical, or as spectacular.. Also, Tyson talked a better talk, for the time in question.. He'd glamorize hurting people, in a way the others were too gentlemanly to even consider..

Louis had the hand speed, Foreman and Liston got it done with pure power: Pick your poison, either way it's lethal. Spectacular KOs over c grade fighters doesn't impress me and never has. I watched Tyson KO Berbick and I said "So what? It's Trever Berbick." Foreman looked spectacular KOing Joe Roman.....but it was still only Joe Roman. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a fighter's "entertainment factor" has never been a factor of mine when evaluating fighters. To my mind, a lopsided decision over an A grade fighter is more impressive than damn near killing a C grade fighter.

Poet

I dont wanna sound like im ****ting on Lewis because im not, i like Lewis.

Lewis was not just a big man, he was a skilled defensive counter puncher who had a good jab had an extremely powerful right hand and a devastating uppercut.

Im just a bit bothered by the notion that a few people seem to think along the lines of Lewis bigger man = beating Holmes, Ali etc.

Size is not everything and to call a fight as simplistically as that is nonsense imo.

Kenny is crazy for sayin what he said, there are so many other intangibles to why Lewis could/would win and why he would not win against SOME of those guys. Im not one of these guys that thinks along the lines of...............if you dont fight in black and white you can be considered to beat another ATG from the 60/70 etc, but i honestly dont believe Lewis would beat Holmes or Ali based on the fact Lewis is not great offensively, he is by trade a defensive minded counter puncher, if i thought Lewis would beat Holmes or Ali i would be honest and call it that way.

Yeah, you get that a lot around here and not just from the posters who nuthug "modern" fighters: A lot of the good poster think along those lines too. I was toying with the idea of posting a little essay on the subject as I'm want to do every couple of years but I've felt a bit too lazy to write it of late.

Poet

Louis had the hand speed, Foreman and Liston got it done with pure power: Pick your poison, either way it's lethal. Spectacular KOs over c grade fighters doesn't impress me and never has. I watched Tyson KO Berbick and I said "So what? It's Trever Berbick." Foreman looked spectacular KOing Joe Roman.....but it was still only Joe Roman. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a fighter's "entertainment factor" has never been a factor of mine when evaluating fighters. To my mind, a lopsided decision over an A grade fighter is more impressive than damn near killing a C grade fighter.

Poet
Have you copyrighted that? Its well put, I may nick it for the Frank Bruno thread and replace c grade with shot :)

Have you copyrighted that? Its well put, I may nick it for the Frank Bruno thread and replace c grade with shot :)

LOL! Nick away :rofl:

Poet

Louis had the hand speed, Foreman and Liston got it done with pure power: Pick your poison, either way it's lethal. Spectacular KOs over c grade fighters doesn't impress me and never has. I watched Tyson KO Berbick and I said "So what? It's Trever Berbick." Foreman looked spectacular KOing Joe Roman.....but it was still only Joe Roman. I guess what I'm trying to say is that a fighter's "entertainment factor" has never been a factor of mine when evaluating fighters. To my mind, a lopsided decision over an A grade fighter is more impressive than damn near killing a C grade fighter.

Poet
Yeah, agreed.. But my emphasis is on the phsycological factor.. 85-88 he'd have scared the **** out of all the aforementioned.. He'd have out phsyed them..
Listen to Foreman at the Tyson fights.. He virtually admits it time & time again..

Ali beats Lewis by late TKO
Lewis beats Fraizer by TKO
Lewis beats Foreman by UD
Lewis does Tyson all day and all night because he was never scared of him, Tyson was all about fear.
Lewis and Holmes share a 3 fight trilogy

Yeah, agreed.. But my emphasis is on the phsycological factor.. 85-88 he'd have scared the **** out of all the aforementioned.. He'd have out phsyed them..
Listen to Foreman at the Tyson fights.. He virtually admits it time & time again..

That's Foreman though: He routinely put on the self-effacing act during the HBO broadcasts. Anything he says has to be taken with a dose of the salts. He was famous for saying "Oh I could never beat so-and-so" when in truth the fighter wouldn't have stood a chance with a prime Foreman. While Foreman and Liston were certainly vulnerable to mind games they weren't vulnerable to Tyson's type of psychological pressure. If anything they were just as good if not better at it than Mike. In fact there is evidence that it was TYSON who was intimidated by FOREMAN. As for Louis, nothing ever fazed him psychologically.

Poet

That's Foreman though: He routinely put on the self-effacing act during the HBO broadcasts. Anything he says has to be taken with a dose of the salts. He was famous for saying "Oh I could never beat so-and-so" when in truth the fighter wouldn't have stood a chance with a prime Foreman. While Foreman and Liston were certainly vulnerable to mind games they weren't vulnerable to Tyson's type of psychological pressure. If anything they were just as good if not better at it than Mike. In fact there is evidence that it was TYSON who was intimidated by FOREMAN. As for Louis, nothing ever fazed him psychologically.

Poet
True with ref to Foreman.. He even said it about Gary Mason lol.. I know Louis was a different kettle to.. But neither came face to face with that snarling hungry beast of the mid 80's.. I actually thought he was an android at one point!

Yeah, you get that a lot around here and not just from the posters who nuthug "modern" fighters: A lot of the good poster think along those lines too. I was toying with the idea of posting a little essay on the subject as I'm want to do every couple of years but I've felt a bit too lazy to write it of late.

Poet


Agree.

In reference to Mike Tyson, imo its difficult to really judge a fighter on lesser competition because they ARE capable of looking extremely good.

I mean i like to think no one is beating Chavez at 135 the night he fought Edwin Rosario but deep down when i actually think about it logically i know that is not true.

Roy Jones has more than a handful of fighters on his resume that he has been able to look spectacular against, and it leads some people to believe he is GOAT because he looked so great against B/C class opposition like Hall etc.

PS im not saying Rosario is a can, he is anyhing but, great little fighter but im just trying to emphasize how good Chavez looked that night.

Wow, I'm suprised that quite a few think that Lewis beats a prime Mike Tyson. As if all you had to do was stand up to him and get past round five!

Hell, the prime Mike Tyson (rightly as Mickey pointed out 1985-1988) was a seriously skilled fighting machine that combined speed and combinations with superb power combined with some of the best head movement ever seen by a heavyweight. I wonder that the doubters are guys that followed the 1995-2005 incarnation of Tyson, who had some great moments in that time but wasn't half the fighter that he was.

Alot of skilled heavyweights stood up to Tyson and were beaten clearly. Not eveyone bricked it like Berbick, Spinks, 'Marvis' Frazier, Tillman and Stewart:

Mitch Greene (decision)
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO)
Quick Tillis (decision)
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO
Tony Tucker (Decision)
Larry Holmes (4th round KO)
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO)
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return)

Tyson was fantastic at his best and was surely fast enough (with hands and feet!) and clever enough at his best to find Lewis's chin with a monster punch. He knocked out people with left hooks, right hands, uppercuts and combinations, he was no one punch wonder. Lewis's suspect chin would be in serious trouble.

Wow, I'm suprised that quite a few think that Lewis beats a prime Mike Tyson. As if all you had to do was stand up to him and get past round five!

Hell, the prime Mike Tyson (rightly as Mickey pointed out 1985-1988) was a seriously skilled fighting machine that combined speed and combinations with superb power combined with some of the best head movement ever seen by a heavyweight. I wonder that the doubters are guys that followed the 1995-2005 incarnation of Tyson, who had some great moments in that time but wasn't half the fighter that he was.

Alot of skilled heavyweights stood up to Tyson and were beaten clearly. Not eveyone bricked it like Berbick, Spinks, 'Marvis' Frazier, Tillman and Stewart:

Mitch Greene (decision)
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO)
Quick Tillis (decision)
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO
Tony Tucker (Decision)
Larry Holmes (4th round KO)
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO)
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return)

Tyson was fantastic at his best and was surely fast enough (with hands and feet!) and clever enough at his best to find Lewis's chin with a monster punch. He knocked out people with left hooks, right hands, uppercuts and combinations, he was no one punch wonder. Lewis's suspect chin would be in serious trouble.

I would favor Tyson by 6 to 4 if he and Lewis fought 10times prime for prime.

There is problem with that list of yours though:

Mitch Greene (decision) - C class fighter
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO) - C class fighter
Quick Tillis (decision) - Past-prime and still gave Tyson fits
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO) - An obese B class fighter
Tony Tucker (Decision) - Fair enough, but no blow out by any means
Larry Holmes (4th round KO) - Past-prime and hadn't fought in 2 years
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO) - Who froze in practically every big fight
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return) - Gave Tyson hell and might have won if he could have wiped his ass with his right

Poet

Lewis would not beat a prime Foreman, and Ali and Holmes could likely decision him. Strong chances against the remainder.

Wow, I'm suprised that quite a few think that Lewis beats a prime Mike Tyson. As if all you had to do was stand up to him and get past round five!

Hell, the prime Mike Tyson (rightly as Mickey pointed out 1985-1988) was a seriously skilled fighting machine that combined speed and combinations with superb power combined with some of the best head movement ever seen by a heavyweight. I wonder that the doubters are guys that followed the 1995-2005 incarnation of Tyson, who had some great moments in that time but wasn't half the fighter that he was.

Alot of skilled heavyweights stood up to Tyson and were beaten clearly. Not eveyone bricked it like Berbick, Spinks, 'Marvis' Frazier, Tillman and Stewart:

Mitch Greene (decision)
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO)
Quick Tillis (decision)
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO
Tony Tucker (Decision)
Larry Holmes (4th round KO)
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO)
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return)

Tyson was fantastic at his best and was surely fast enough (with hands and feet!) and clever enough at his best to find Lewis's chin with a monster punch. He knocked out people with left hooks, right hands, uppercuts and combinations, he was no one punch wonder. Lewis's suspect chin would be in serious trouble.

yes you said it hear Sugarj, Mike Tyson was a killing machine under the guidance of Rooney, Jacobs & Cayton, he destroyed everyone who was anyone in heavyweight boxing, Alex Stewart, Pink Thomas, Ferguson, Truth`Williams, Tyrell Biggs can be added to your above list, some have questioned Tysons victory over Berbick as "Oh it was only Berbick" here on this topic... BUT Berbick was a bull of a man who had wrestled the title off Pink Thomas and had went a full 15rds with a prime Larry Holmes aswell as beating Big John Tate, yet Tyson paralized him with power and speed.. i would also add about Trevor Berbick that Lennox Lewis chose to start his pro career over in the UK so as to avoid the Canadian Heavyweight Champion Trevor Berbick... Tyson KOs Lewis rd1

Obviously i'm biased but here you go....

How do you think a fight would go between these guys...

Lewis vs. Foreman

Lewis wins by UD, he can keep the short, squat George at bay all night long much like he did to the more powerful Tua.

Lewis vs. Frazier

Same as above but chance of a Ko late instead

Lewis vs. Ali

Ali wins a Close Ud, Lewis wins a close sd in the rematch, there is no decisive best out of these two

Lewis vs. Holmes

Lewis by Ko, probably before the 6th

Lewis vs. Prime Tyson

Lewis by Ko around the 7th or 8th after an early scare and a tough couple of first rounds

Lewis vs. Joe Louis

Lewis by Ko, probably in less than 5

Oh and by the way Some guys did try to stand up to tyson but they were complete bums.

Frank Bruno almost KTFO tyson but didn't have the killer instinct.

Lewis left Tyson bleeding from every orrifice (including *******, ive seen the medical records)

I would favor Tyson by 6 to 4 if he and Lewis fought 10times prime for prime.

There is problem with that list of yours though:

Mitch Greene (decision) - C class fighter
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO) - C class fighter
Quick Tillis (decision) - Past-prime and still gave Tyson fits
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO) - An obese B class fighter
Tony Tucker (Decision) - Fair enough, but no blow out by any means
Larry Holmes (4th round KO) - Past-prime and hadn't fought in 2 years
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO) - Who froze in practically every big fight
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return) - Gave Tyson hell and might have won if he could have wiped his ass with his right

Poet

Tyson`s opponents at that stage of his career was far superior than Lennox Lewis opponents at the same stage of his career..
McCrory --- cruserweight on the slide Cass D
Billups -- KOd by everyone except Lewis - Class F
Chanet -- old gypsy Class Y
Derek Williams --- `joke`Class F
Dixon ---- `joke` Class H
Mason -- decent Cass C but would be murdered by Tyson
Ocassio -- 40yr old ex crusierweight, loses on PTS class F

Prime-4-Prime Tyson beats Lewis 10-0 all by KO

Lewis vs. Foreman

Lewis wins by UD, he can keep the short, squat George at bay all night long much like he did to the more powerful Tua.

"Short, squat George"? :ugh: Foreman was only an inch and a half shorter than Lewis, with a 2 inch (negligible) reach disadvantage, and was in no way squat...

1) Foreman beats Lewis by knockout
2) Frazier beats Lewis by knockout
3) Ali beats Lewis by unanimous decision
4) Not sure about this one
5) Tyson beats Lewis by knockout
6) Louis beats Lewis by knockout

Tua is an underrated win for Lewis.. Sure Lewis spent the whole fight avoiding Tua's right, but Lewis comfortably won 11 out of the 12 rounds.. Tua actually connected once, with a massive right around mid way, but Lewis took it comfortably.. Lewis did some terrific feints in this fight to.. It was probably his best pure boxing performance..
As for Lewis defeating Tyson in any era, I'd say yes, apart from 85-88.. Don't see anyone beating Tyson around then..
David Tua was the `FATTEST` man to ever fight for the title, he came into the ring weighing 256lbs some 20lbs heavier than the night of his greatest career performance against Ibeabuchi, Lennox Lewis knew Tua was grossly overweight which is why he agreed to fight him, Lewis was an `oppotunist` who took no risks and only fought fighters who was on the slide or hasbeens.. Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis and Larry Holmes would all have badly beaten Tua before KOing him, Tyson & Frazier would both knock out Tua.

If it wasn't lack of focus, how come he easily won the rematches?

Surley if it was a serious flaw to his game, Rahman and Mccall could have done it again.
Lewis won the rematches because, the McCall rematch, McCall was only 5 days out of a Drug-Rehab and had done zero training for the fight, psychologicaly McCall should never have been aloud in a boxing ring never mind a world title fight, Lewis was also scared of McCall and was fearful of moving in to beat McCall, as for Rahman he is and was always only a fringe contender who was poleaxed twice by Oleg Maskaev, Lewis victory over Rahman is `Nothing Special` -- Rahman is the worst heavyweight champion in history.

I wonder if the never-heard-from-before-or-since Mexican referee who stopped Lewis on his feet despite beating the count got a slice of that? :)

Considering most of those guys listed never beat someone with Lewis' combination of size, power and skills, I dunno how you can't even give him a smidgen of a chance against any of them. Well actually I can. For me, Lewis on his best night has a great chance of beating any great heavyweight in history.

vs Ali - Ali SD
vs Frazier - Lewis TKO
vs Foreman - Foreman KO
vs Tyson - Tyson KO
vs Holmes - Lewis UD

you are looking at any angle whatso ever to try to find an excuse for Lewis defeat... can you please tell me "WHAT WAS LEWIS BEST NIGHT" because i would say it was the Ray Mercer fight and on that showing he would be KOd by all the above fighters..... i await your reply

interesting that you pick lewis to stop a prime joe frazier. lewis coundt handle the power of McCall or Rahman.
St Lion... i am with you buddy, its bazaar how someone can place McCall & Rahman in the league of Joe Frazier or better when it comes to punchpower... Frazier was a murderous puncher and one of the very very greatest pressure fighters who ever lived

St Lion... i am with you buddy, its bazaar how someone can place McCall & Rahman in the league of Joe Frazier or better when it comes to punchpower... Frazier was a murderous puncher and one of the very very greatest pressure fighters who ever lived

So does that make it bizzare for somebody to think Lewis couldn't KO Frazier because Frazier couldn't handle Foremans power? Considering that Lewis probably had as much power as Foreman did?

Obviously i'm biased but here you go....

How do you think a fight would go between these guys...

Lewis vs. Foreman

Lewis wins by UD, he can keep the short, squat George at bay all night long much like he did to the more powerful Tua.[/B]

Lewis vs. Frazier

Same as above but chance of a Ko late instead

Lewis vs. Ali

Ali wins a Close Ud, Lewis wins a close sd in the rematch, there is no decisive best out of these two

Lewis vs. Holmes

Lewis by Ko, probably before the 6th

Lewis vs. Prime Tyson

Lewis by Ko around the 7th or 8th after an early scare and a tough couple of first rounds

Lewis vs. Joe Louis

Lewis by Ko, probably in less than 5



Lewis wins by UD, he can keep the short, squat George at bay all night long much like he did to the more powerful Tua.


Lewis vs. Holmes

Lewis by Ko, probably before the 6th


Are you on crack???

Hi Poet, just in response to your post when you said

'There is problem with that list of yours though:

Mitch Greene (decision) - C class fighter
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO) - C class fighter
Quick Tillis (decision) - Past-prime and still gave Tyson fits
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO) - An obese B class fighter
Tony Tucker (Decision) - Fair enough, but no blow out by any means
Larry Holmes (4th round KO) - Past-prime and hadn't fought in 2 years
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO) - Who froze in practically every big fight
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return) - Gave Tyson hell and might have won if he could have wiped his ass with his right'


I only listed these guys as examples of fighters who stood up to Tyson and didn't mentally collapse or were intimidated. Granted we are not talking all time greats at their peak here. Ha ha

But poor Frank only froze in Tyson 2. He was beating Bonecrusher, Witherspoon, Lewis and certainly did well early against Tyson the first time they met. His problem was his chin and distance stamina, not freezing.

Hi Poet, just in response to your post when you said

'There is problem with that list of yours though:

Mitch Greene (decision) - C class fighter
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO) - C class fighter
Quick Tillis (decision) - Past-prime and still gave Tyson fits
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO) - An obese B class fighter
Tony Tucker (Decision) - Fair enough, but no blow out by any means
Larry Holmes (4th round KO) - Past-prime and hadn't fought in 2 years
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO) - Who froze in practically every big fight
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return) - Gave Tyson hell and might have won if he could have wiped his ass with his right'


I only listed these guys as examples of fighters who stood up to Tyson and didn't mentally collapse or were intimidated. Granted we are not talking all time greats at their peak here. Ha ha

But poor Frank only froze in Tyson 2. He was beating Bonecrusher, Witherspoon, Lewis and certainly did well early against Tyson the first time they met. His problem was his chin and distance stamina, not freezing.

Bruno was good IMO. Until he got hit, then his arms would drop and he would freeze up. Very strange to watch. He should have learnt to defend himself properly.

Another poor heavyweight with a less than stellar chin Bruno. In his defense he always took a load of blows before going down or being stopped whereas with Lewis it was one punch and lights out in both cases. Not really a case of 'freezing'. Freezing is what Spinks did against Tyson.

Another poor heavyweight with a less than stellar chin Bruno. In his defense he always took a load of blows before going down or being stopped whereas with Lewis it was one punch and lights out in both cases. Not really a case of 'freezing'. Freezing is what Spinks did against Tyson.

Who's the other poor heavyweight? Lewis? lol

David Tua was the `FATTEST` man to ever fight for the title, he came into the ring weighing 256lbs some 20lbs heavier than the night of his greatest career performance against Ibeabuchi, Lennox Lewis knew Tua was grossly overweight which is why he agreed to fight him, Lewis was an `oppotunist` who took no risks and only fought fighters who was on the slide or hasbeens.. Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis and Larry Holmes would all have badly beaten Tua before KOing him, Tyson & Frazier would both knock out Tua.
Quite possibly!.... Just said it was a good boxing performance, thats all..

theres no reason lewis cant beat any of these guys prime 4 prime

theres no reason lewis cant beat any of these guys prime 4 prime
what are the reasons he `can` beat these guys prime 4 prime?

So does that make it bizzare for somebody to think Lewis couldn't KO Frazier because Frazier couldn't handle Foremans power? Considering that Lewis probably had as much power as Foreman did?
Foreman Stopped Frazier, he did not KO him, he knocked him down 6 times, That same version of Foreman would have massacred Lennox Lewis, Foreman was the greatest power-puncher in boxing history and Lewis does not come near to him in terms of KO power, the only fighter who Lewis poleaxed was Hasim Rahman and Oleg Maskaev done the same to Rahman TWICE.. when Rahman poleaxed Lewis the referee could have counted to 100 and Lewis would not have beaten the count yet Rahman never in his career did his punches have that same effect on any other opponent.. Frazier had a chin of iron unlike Lewis, also Frazier is rated in the top 5 all time great power-punchers, if Rahman & McCall could put Lewis to sleep then Joe Frazier would comatoze Lewis, not one single opponent of Lennox Lewis whole professional career would have any kind of hope of beating Smokin`Joe Frazier, yet the list of opponents who Frazier fought and beat in his career that would also beat Lewis is many

Foreman Stopped Frazier, he did not KO him, he knocked him down 6 times

It all looks the same in the record book: If you stop a fighter, for whatever reason, it goes down as a KO on your record.

Poet

Hi Poet, just in response to your post when you said

'There is problem with that list of yours though:

Mitch Greene (decision) - C class fighter
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO) - C class fighter
Quick Tillis (decision) - Past-prime and still gave Tyson fits
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO) - An obese B class fighter
Tony Tucker (Decision) - Fair enough, but no blow out by any means
Larry Holmes (4th round KO) - Past-prime and hadn't fought in 2 years
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO) - Who froze in practically every big fight
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return) - Gave Tyson hell and might have won if he could have wiped his ass with his right'


I only listed these guys as examples of fighters who stood up to Tyson and didn't mentally collapse or were intimidated. Granted we are not talking all time greats at their peak here. Ha ha

The point is well taken! I do think there is more to it then simply standing up to him: A fighter DOES have to make Tyson pay for his aggression too and of those listed only Ruddock did so.....which is one of the reasons I consider the two Ruddock fights Tyson's finest efforts: A fighter stood up to Mike and nailed him and Tyson fired back and won anyway.


But poor Frank only froze in Tyson 2. He was beating Bonecrusher, Witherspoon, Lewis and certainly did well early against Tyson the first time they met. His problem was his chin and distance stamina, not freezing.

Bruno was good IMO. Until he got hit, then his arms would drop and he would freeze up. Very strange to watch. He should have learnt to defend himself properly.

This is what I mean by freezing: Not freezing in fear like Spinks did but rather freezing and not knowing what to do when hurt. Mersey is dead on in his analysis. I used to think (before I had internet and access to copius amounts of fight films) that Bruno was chinny, then I had the opportunity (thanks to the internet) to watch his fights, especially his losses, and my view changed to Mersey's position. Bruno's brain simply locked up when hurt and he became a sitting duck.

Poet

Oh and by the way Some guys did try to stand up to tyson but they were complete bums.

Frank Bruno almost KTFO tyson but didn't have the killer instinct.

Lewis left Tyson bleeding from every orrifice (including *******, ive seen the medical records)

I was wondering when you were going to weigh in on this :boxing:

Poet

Tyson`s opponents at that stage of his career was far superior than Lennox Lewis opponents at the same stage of his career..
McCrory --- cruserweight on the slide Cass D
Billups -- KOd by everyone except Lewis - Class F
Chanet -- old gypsy Class Y
Derek Williams --- `joke`Class F
Dixon ---- `joke` Class H
Mason -- decent Cass C but would be murdered by Tyson
Ocassio -- 40yr old ex crusierweight, loses on PTS class F

Prime-4-Prime Tyson beats Lewis 10-0 all by KO


You can't go by age when determining a fighter's prime: It differs from fighter to fighter. At the equivalent stage of developement Tyson was fighting the Jamesons and Aldersons of the boxing world.


yes you said it hear Sugarj, Mike Tyson was a killing machine under the guidance of Rooney, Jacobs & Cayton, he destroyed everyone who was anyone in heavyweight boxing, Alex Stewart, Pink Thomas, Ferguson, Truth`Williams, Tyrell Biggs can be added to your above list, some have questioned Tysons victory over Berbick as "Oh it was only Berbick" here on this topic... BUT Berbick was a bull of a man who had wrestled the title off Pink Thomas and had went a full 15rds with a prime Larry Holmes aswell as beating Big John Tate, yet Tyson paralized him with power and speed.. i would also add about Trevor Berbick that Lennox Lewis chose to start his pro career over in the UK so as to avoid the Canadian Heavyweight Champion Trevor Berbick... Tyson KOs Lewis rd1

Tyson was dominant during the second worst Heavyweight era ever (after todays putrid division). He wasn't "all that and a bag of chips". I understand you're a fan of the dude but don't let that cloud your objectivity. In the end, Tyson was a very good fighter who looked spectacular beating tomato cans and C class fighters: Something fighters who generate lots of offense invariably do which is why they invariably get overrated (see the Felix Trinidad story). He was never an unstoppable force or a "killing machine". In fact, in prime-for-prime matchups Tyson comes out on the short end against most other Heavyweights on the ATG list.

"Everyone who was anyone"? Considering the quality of the division at the time that's like saying someone is smarter than.....a fifth grader. Trever Berbick may well have been the worst Heavyweight ever to hold a major belt. Ferguson lost every time he stepped up in class. Tyrell Biggs was a hyped up never-was. Pinklon Thomas squandered his abilities on cocaine and wasn't long out of rehab when Tyson fought him. Beating John Tate? Tate was a joke. I'd even favor YOU to beat him in a prime-for-prime matchup.

Poet

Hi Poet,

'Quote:
Originally Posted by Merseysideblood
Bruno was good IMO. Until he got hit, then his arms would drop and he would freeze up. Very strange to watch. He should have learnt to defend himself properly.

This is what I mean by freezing: Not freezing in fear like Spinks did but rather freezing and not knowing what to do when hurt. Mersey is dead on in his analysis. I used to think (before I had internet and access to copius amounts of fight films) that Bruno was chinny, then I had the opportunity (thanks to the internet) to watch his fights, especially his losses, and my view changed to Mersey's position. Bruno's brain simply locked up when hurt and he became a sitting duck.'


I totally see the angle, different interpretations of the definition to 'freeze'. In Bruno's case I suppose I'd use 'stunned' or 'dazed', I guess its more respectful than 'helpless' which I could have used! LOL

Wow, I'm suprised that quite a few think that Lewis beats a prime Mike Tyson. As if all you had to do was stand up to him and get past round five!

Hell, the prime Mike Tyson (rightly as Mickey pointed out 1985-1988) was a seriously skilled fighting machine that combined speed and combinations with superb power combined with some of the best head movement ever seen by a heavyweight. I wonder that the doubters are guys that followed the 1995-2005 incarnation of Tyson, who had some great moments in that time but wasn't half the fighter that he was.

Alot of skilled heavyweights stood up to Tyson and were beaten clearly. Not eveyone bricked it like Berbick, Spinks, 'Marvis' Frazier, Tillman and Stewart:

Mitch Greene (decision)
Jose Ribalta (10th round KO)
Quick Tillis (decision)
Tony Tubbs (2nd roundKO
Tony Tucker (Decision)
Larry Holmes (4th round KO)
Frank Bruno (in 89, 5th round KO)
Razor Ruddock (in 1991 7th round KO, then a 12 round decision in return)

Tyson was fantastic at his best and was surely fast enough (with hands and feet!) and clever enough at his best to find Lewis's chin with a monster punch. He knocked out people with left hooks, right hands, uppercuts and combinations, he was no one punch wonder. Lewis's suspect chin would be in serious trouble.

Very good Post like it!!!:boxing:

Very good Post like it!!!:boxing:

We will be disagreeing forever my friend lol get on wit ya work, la.

what are the reasons he `can` beat these guys prime 4 prime?

because he is by the far best H.W of modern times. he could potentialy u.d ali, frazier i would pic him to k.o any version of tyson in the late rounds (tyson never fancied his chances against lewis) foreman could be a problem because of his size and power but again lewis could outbox him if he fights to his strengths

because he is by the far best H.W of modern times.

Define "modern times" please.

Poet

because he is by the far best H.W of modern times. he could potentialy u.d ali, frazier i would pic him to k.o any version of tyson in the late rounds (tyson never fancied his chances against lewis) foreman could be a problem because of his size and power but again lewis could outbox him if he fights to his strengths

since when did Tyson not fancy his chances against Lewis ?
wasn`t Lewis No1 contender for Tysons title in 96 but accepted step-a-side money of $2 million instead of saying NO and getting a guaranteed title fight and a career highest payday of $15 million+ ... it looks to me by Lewis actions that he was the one who never ever fancied his chances

Hi SuperJoe, glad you like the Tyson post. Tyson seems to have as many doubters as guys who think that he'd beat Lewis! I'm no nuthugger but I cant see Lewis living for long with a peak Tyson. I'm sure Lewis would start well and may land nice jabs and right hands but sooner or later Tyson would land, either with a huge blow or a combination.........thats all it would take. Remember, up till Tyson was the washed up shell that fought Lewis in what 2001 or 2002, every guy he faced.....he hurt, staggered or knocked down. That includes both Buster Douglas and Evander Holyfield who he lost to. He'd no doubt hurt Lewis at his best and with Tyson's accuracy, speed and power the chances of a KO had to be likely.

I'm delighted that Sonnybox and I agree on the subject of Tyson. The man was terrific at his best and was vastly superior to just about everyone he faced between 1985 and 1989. I think this is because Tyson was taught his craft by a master trainer in Cus D'Amato when Tyson was so young (13-19 years old). Many seem to forget how good his head movement was and how good his combinations were. He was tough to hit cleanly too, I'm sure his reactions were that good largely because of his youth............most heavyweights today seem to peak ten years later but few show the reactions and elusiveness displayed by young men in their early 20s like Ali and Tyson.

I know that boxing scholers like Poet dont really rate the 1980s as a particularly good era for the heavyweights, but I do think that we were spoiled by the 70s and 90s which were great decades. I suspect that were we not spoilt by the mastery of Holmes and the devestating powers of Tyson throughout the 80s the era may be better remembered as one where many tallented and evenly matched fighters swapped titles with each other. I think that plenty of guys that Tyson walked through would be solid top ten contenders today.

since when did Tyson not fancy his chances against Lewis ?
wasn`t Lewis No1 contender for Tysons title in 96 but accepted step-a-side money of $2 million instead of saying NO and getting a guaranteed title fight and a career highest payday of $15 million+ ... it looks to me by Lewis actions that he was the one who never ever fancied his chances

tyson could have fought lewis insted he went for the easyer option in holyfield but we all know what happend he lost so the fight went out of the window

Tyson would never have got past Lewis's jab tyson was hand made for lewis to pic apart tyson has a punchers chance in the early rounds but we all know what happens when he cant k.o someone early he starts looking for ways out. lewis was at his best against smaller guys like tyson i have no dout in my mind prime for prime Lewis beats him 9 times out of 10

Define "modern times" please.

Poet

1980's+


lightsout

since when did Tyson not fancy his chances against Lewis ?
wasn`t Lewis No1 contender for Tysons title in 96 but accepted step-a-side money of $2 million instead of saying NO and getting a guaranteed title fight and a career highest payday of $15 million+ ... it looks to me by Lewis actions that he was the one who never ever fancied his chances

Nice bit of spinning there again. Tyson paid Lewis to step-aside and then vacated his WBC belt, for which Lewis was the mandatory. Tyson did all that to free him up to fight Holyfield, who was perceived to be shot after Bowe III. Irrespective of what Lewis wanted, the fight was not going to happen then. You're the only person I've come across who thinks all that equates to Lewis ducking Tyson.

Nice bit of spinning there again. Tyson paid Lewis to step-aside and then vacated his WBC belt, for which Lewis was the mandatory. Tyson did all that to free him up to fight Holyfield, who was perceived to be shot after Bowe III. Irrespective of what Lewis wanted, the fight was not going to happen then. You're the only person I've come across who thinks all that equates to Lewis ducking Tyson.

I've proven it to him over and over yet he refuses to acknowledge this.

To him Tyson paying millions of dollars to Lewis for him to step aside and then vacating his title not to fight Lewis equates Lewis ducking Tyson.

It's ridiculous and makes no sense.

I've proven it to him over and over yet he refuses to acknowledge this.

To him Tyson paying millions of dollars to Lewis for him to step aside and then vacating his title not to fight Lewis equates Lewis ducking Tyson.

It's ridiculous and makes no sense.
Lewis could easily have said, NO` ... Lewis tried to pay David Tua step-a-side money but Tua said`NO` so Lewis had to fight him and so would Tyson, but Lewis did not fancy his chances with that version of Tyson.

Lewis could easily have said, NO` ... Lewis tried to pay David Tua step-a-side money but Tua said`NO` so Lewis had to fight him and so would Tyson, but Lewis did not fancy his chances with that version of Tyson.

Tyson would have simply vacated his title not to fight Lewis, which he did do.

1980's+


lightsout

Then Holmes, Tyson, and arguably Holyfield were better.

Poet

I think that plenty of guys that Tyson walked through would be solid top ten contenders today.

I agree, but only because today's division is the most God-aweful I've ever seen.

I know that boxing scholers like Poet dont really rate the 1980s as a particularly good era for the heavyweights, but I do think that we were spoiled by the 70s and 90s which were great decades. I suspect that were we not spoilt by the mastery of Holmes and the devestating powers of Tyson throughout the 80s the era may be better remembered as one where many tallented and evenly matched fighters swapped titles with each other.

Indeed, the 1970s and 1990s were the best eras for the Heavyweights. I would say the 1960s, 1930s, 1910s, and 1900s were solid. The 1920s, 1940s, and 1950s were sub-par while the 1980s and the 2000s were terrible, with the 2000s being the runaway winner for the worst "error" ever. In away, I WAS spoiled by Holmes' mastery: I loved watching Larry fight.....and still do.

Poet

Tyson was never a great champion, he shouldn't be listed as an all time great. My main reason for this is that he never beat a great champion. He beat Larry Holmes who was flabby as ****, sorry but Tyson beat up tomato cans until someone who wasn't scared of him (Douglas) outboxed and out fought him. OK prior to that Tyson was an animal, he murdered everyone but it was all mental everyone was terrified bar Bonecrusher Smith. Look At Spinks' face before their fight, their was poo running down his leg and with good reason. At his mid 30's when Lewis was peaked he would've eaten Tyson because he knew he was the f*cking man and 'no guy test this', Tyson would've eaten that jab til his heart broke just like the real fight, great champions come back from adversity, Tyson never did that. I'm not saying Lewis the G.O.A.T. but he's top 10 and he's above Tyson. I like Tyson and after watching his documentary I understood why he bit that cheating headbutter Holyfield, but Lewis does him all day. The chin was iron he just got sloppy a couple of times, it's heavyweight boxing.

Tyson was never a great champion, he shouldn't be listed as an all time great. My main reason for this is that he never beat a great champion. He beat Larry Holmes who was flabby as ****, sorry but Tyson beat up tomato cans until someone who wasn't scared of him (Douglas) outboxed and out fought him. OK prior to that Tyson was an animal, he murdered everyone but it was all mental everyone was terrified bar Bonecrusher Smith. Look At Spinks' face before their fight, their was poo running down his leg and with good reason. At his mid 30's when Lewis was peaked he would've eaten Tyson because he knew he was the f*cking man and 'no guy test this', Tyson would've eaten that jab til his heart broke just like the real fight, great champions come back from adversity, Tyson never did that. I'm not saying Lewis the G.O.A.T. but he's top 10 and he's above Tyson. I like Tyson and after watching his documentary I understood why he bit that cheating headbutter Holyfield, but Lewis does him all day. The chin was iron he just got sloppy a couple of times, it's heavyweight boxing.


but it was all mental everyone was terrified bar Bonecrusher Smith.

Huh, wasn't it Bonecrusher Smith who held onto him all night long ?

You muppets realise BOTH Tyson and Foreman have said they know deep down they could NEVER have beaten lewis even in their primes.

Are they lying?

You muppets realise BOTH Tyson and Foreman have said they know deep down they could NEVER have beaten lewis even in their primes.

Are they lying?

What you mean that dwarf George Foreman said that ?

:lol1::lol1:

What you mean that dwarf George Foreman said that ?

:lol1::lol1:

I will just refer to my earlier post where I pointed out that Foreman the broacaster had this dumb habit of saying ****e like "Oh I could never have beaten Ross Purrity when I was in my prime ect. ect. ect."

Poet

Lewis vs. Foreman - Foreman by Stoppage

Lewis vs. Frazier - Lewis by UD unless Frazier can get him later

Lewis vs. Ali - Ali by UD

Lewis vs. Holmes - Holmes by UD

Lewis vs. Prime Tyson - Tyson by Stoppage

Lewis vs. Joe Louis - Louis by Close UD

That's my opinion anyway

I give up.

Im serious Lewis never gets his due credit and he never will.

In the eyes of you people the best heavyweight fighter my country, no my continent has ever produced will never be in the league of america's top 10 fighter, and tbh it doesnt matter what anyone says, your opinion on that will never change.

I give up.

Im serious Lewis never gets his due credit and he never will.

In the eyes of you people the best heavyweight fighter my country, no my continent has ever produced will never be in the league of america's top 10 fighter, and tbh it doesnt matter what anyone says, your opinion on that will never change.

Well, I have him ranked number 13 on my all-time list. If his chin was better I'd have no problems ranking him in the 10. I personally think he's competive with Tyson, Frazier, Marciano, and Wills. I think he's better than Walcott (although I believe it's a competetive fight) who I regard VERY highly.....and I certainly think he's clearly superior to Bowe and Vitali. Wlad doesn't belong in the same ring as Lewis: That fight is an ugly beat-down in Lewis' favor. Who else do I rank him over?

James Corbett
George Godfrey
Peter Jackson
Joe Jeannette
James Jeffries
Sam McVey
Ken Norton
Floyd Patterson
Max Schmeling

Of those, Jeanette and Jeffries may be competetive but I think he clearly the others.

Poet

His chin problems are over-rated. He got hit with big punches from Tyson, Morrison, Tua, Ruddock and others and didn't go down. Its heavyweight boxing and if you get caught napping your going to go down. Ask Evander Holyfield that.

I know you dont rate Lewis particularly highly poet but at least you back up as to why, even if i dont agree with you.

I honestly think that If Enzo Maccranelli was american, he would be rated as an atg cruiserweight who was past his prime when he fought haye.

Same with nigel benn, he has a fantastic streak of wins and ko's however even british fans say he was a good champion but no atg. If he was american hed be an tg who was past prime when he lost.

His chin problems are over-rated. He got hit with big punches from Tyson, Morrison, Tua, Ruddock and others and didn't go down. Its heavyweight boxing and if you get caught napping your going to go down. Ask Evander Holyfield that.

I know you dont rate Lewis particularly highly poet but at least you back up as to why, even if i dont agree with you.

I honestly think that If Enzo Maccranelli was american, he would be rated as an atg cruiserweight who was past his prime when he fought haye.

Same with nigel benn, he has a fantastic streak of wins and ko's however even british fans say he was a good champion but no atg. If he was american hed be an tg who was past prime when he lost.

omg :lol1::lol1:

His chin problems are over-rated. He got hit with big punches from Tyson, Morrison, Tua, Ruddock and others and didn't go down. Its heavyweight boxing and if you get caught napping your going to go down. Ask Evander Holyfield that.

My position on his chin is really based on the number of times I saw him wobbled by less than steller punchers not the McCall and Rahman fights that are usually cited.

I know you dont rate Lewis particularly highly poet but at least you back up as to why, even if i dont agree with you.

On the contrary: I think quite highly of Lennox. As I do Walcott. My position has always been that if I have someone rated in the top 20 it's a compliment!

I honestly think that If Enzo Maccranelli was american, he would be rated as an atg cruiserweight who was past his prime when he fought haye.

I admit I don't really pay attention to the Cruisers, American or otherwise lol!

Same with nigel benn, he has a fantastic streak of wins and ko's however even british fans say he was a good champion but no atg. If he was american hed be an tg who was past prime when he lost.

Actually Nigel is one of my all-time favorite fighters. He, Eubank, Collins, and Graham carried the Middleweights in the early '90s. Remember though, Middleweight has been a historically stacked division with roughly twice the ATGs as the Heavyweights: That's a pretty big crowd with a lot of roughly equal fighters making up 10 through 25 on the ATG list.

Poet

Well, I have him ranked number 13 on my all-time list. If his chin was better I'd have no problems ranking him in the 10.

And yet you rate Joe louis very highly do you not?

His chin problems are over-rated. He got hit with big punches from Tyson, Morrison, Tua, Ruddock and others and didn't go down. Its heavyweight boxing and if you get caught napping your going to go down. Ask Evander Holyfield that.

I know you dont rate Lewis particularly highly poet but at least you back up as to why, even if i dont agree with you.

I honestly think that If Enzo Maccranelli was american, he would be rated as an atg cruiserweight who was past his prime when he fought haye.

Same with nigel benn, he has a fantastic streak of wins and ko's however even british fans say he was a good champion but no atg. If he was american hed be an tg who was past prime when he lost.
Ruddock never landed a punch on Lewis, Tua was as fat as a pig when he fought Lewis, Morrison was finished and suffering from HIV when he fought Lewis and Tyson was a decade past his best.. all these fighters their legs had gone by the time they fought Lewis and so had their punch-power which comes from the legs..Lennox Lewis is a British thing, he will never be anything else, he is only an ATG in the eyes of the deluded Brits... Enzo Maccarinelli is and always has been a Class D fighter...
Nigel Benn & Chris Eubank was without doubt fantastic value-for-money fighters and real crowd pleasers, they was worthy world champions BUT they was not ATG fighters, not in the Jones, Toney, Leonard, Hagler, Hopkins league BUT they generated far more excitement than all those fighters did and IMO are worth IBHOF fighters.. Steve Collins IMO does not merit being named on the same level as Benn, Eubank or Watson.. Collins caught both at the very tail-end of their careers and i dont think he would have beaten them prime-4-prime, very similar to how Lennox Lewis caught both Tyson & Holyfield

i didjt read this thread much, didnt feel a need to so please excuse any doubled statements.

i dont see many peeps giving lewis much of a hard time. vitali klitschko has best chance at beating a primed lewis(whenever the heck his fans think that was), and maybe a newer wladimir klitschko. i think george foreman, although a lil slower, would keep lewis on his toes as well.

i see what people think of legends like marciano and ali having a very very hard time facing lewis. sure, ali might be able to skip around the ring and pot-shot while striving to maintain a fightable range for himself, but a good lewis jab or straight right would be equivalent to maybe 3 or so ali pot shots. and a cat like marciano might not wanna stand in the pocket and trade with a filled out yet fleet-footed lewis. lewis might simply just outpower him anyways.

a george foreman might be able to hang with lewis in slugging aspect. but lewis is much quicker and was more athletically capable. i could see lewis dipping in and out of the pocket while measuring and startng to tee-off on foreman past round 4.

really, only the 2 K bros have posed a threat to a primed lewis in my mind.
as u can tell, i dont worship a golden image of the untouchabld old timers like many do. i just keep it real.

maybe some would surprise me. but, i see vitali especially, and an older or newer wladimir giving lewis the hardest time. i am imagning this all against a somewhat nimble yet heavy handed lewis in my mind.

Vitali is his toughest possible opponent imo, but then again lewis, old and fat bat vitali cuts or no cuts he got the win.

Wlad I dont see giving him too much trouble. He has looked good lately but only agains has-been and chagaev who was finished anyway.

The other guys I dont see giving him nightmares, maybe some beat him but i dunno without a time machine

Ruddock never landed a punch on Lewis, Tua was as fat as a pig when he fought Lewis, Morrison was finished and suffering from HIV when he fought Lewis and Tyson was a decade past his best.. all these fighters their legs had gone by the time they fought Lewis and so had their punch-power which comes from the legs..Lennox Lewis is a British thing, he will never be anything else, he is only an ATG in the eyes of the deluded Brits... Enzo Maccarinelli is and always has been a Class D fighter...
Nigel Benn & Chris Eubank was without doubt fantastic value-for-money fighters and real crowd pleasers, they was worthy world champions BUT they was not ATG fighters, not in the Jones, Toney, Leonard, Hagler, Hopkins league BUT they generated far more excitement than all those fighters did and IMO are worth IBHOF fighters.. Steve Collins IMO does not merit being named on the same level as Benn, Eubank or Watson.. Collins caught both at the very tail-end of their careers and i dont think he would have beaten them prime-4-prime, very similar to how Lennox Lewis caught both Tyson & Holyfield


Yes, only Brits and probably 99% of boxing fans see Lennox as an ATG....

If most ATG lists have Lewis above Tyson, what does that make Tyson? Is he just an American thing?

Ruddock never landed a punch on Lewis, Tua was as fat as a pig when he fought Lewis, Morrison was finished and suffering from HIV when he fought Lewis and Tyson was a decade past his best.. all these fighters their legs had gone by the time they fought Lewis and so had their punch-power which comes from the legs

Tysons Previous fight? Win RTD Brian Neilsen
Tua's Previous fight? Win TKO 3 Robert Daniels
Morrisons last fight? Win TKO 6 Ruddock

ALL of lewises opponents were coming in in good form off impressive wins


Lennox Lewis is a British thing, he will never be anything else, he is only an ATG in the eyes of the deluded Brits... Enzo Maccarinelli is and always has been a Class D fighter...


British fans and pretty much EVERY boxing expert has him top 10 atg h/w MOST have him top 5 IN FACT # 2 is the most poular spot for lewis.


very similar to how Lennox Lewis caught both Tyson & Holyfield

Please remind me of the Great ATG's that Tyson beat in his prime?

Tony Tubbs and Pinklon Thomas no doubt would have given prime lewis Fits wouldnt they?

"Lewis is not an ATG, only to deluded Brits"

That is sig worthy lol

Then Holmes, Tyson, and arguably Holyfield were better.

Poet

key word arguably but no way they are

Tysons Previous fight? Win RTD Brian Neilsen
Tua's Previous fight? Win TKO 3 Robert Daniels
Morrisons last fight? Win TKO 6 Ruddock

ALL of lewises opponents were coming in in good form off impressive wins



British fans and pretty much EVERY boxing expert has him top 10 atg h/w MOST have him top 5 IN FACT # 2 is the most poular spot for lewis.



Please remind me of the Great ATG's that Tyson beat in his prime?

Tony Tubbs and Pinklon Thomas no doubt would have given prime lewis Fits wouldnt they?
Robert Daniels was a 32yr old Lightheavyweight
Ruddock was having his first fight in 18 months
Tyson weighed a career heaviest against Neilson

i would not call those impressive wins...

i have never read about any boxing expert having Lewis in their Top 5 ATG list and definately never No2 on their list

If Rahman & McCall can poleaxe a prime Lewis and Mercer lose a split decision to him then i am sure Tubbs & Thomas would pose big problems for him...

Tyson kocked-out Larry Holmes yet Holmes easily defeated Mercer and called for a fight with Lewis from 92 onwards..

Tyson hammered Bruno TWICE yet Lewis was out-jabbed and out-fought by Bruno, and was only victorious due to what i would call a "Lucky punch"

IMO Holyfield was Robbed`of the decision in his rematch with Lewis, its also the opinion of most ringside reporters who was at the fight.

The members who have posted on this topic have been split 50/50 on the hyporthetical match-ups of how Lewis would fare against 5 ATGs which leaves him well short of being the No2 ATG..

The facts are that Lennox never ever beat an ATG fighter who was in his prime and 99% of his opponents was on the slide when he fought them and not Class A fighters at that time.. now whichever way you want to "move the goalposts" it is a fact that cannot be over-looked when rating Lennox Lewis against the ATG fighters...

To assume that Lewis had some kind of fantastic jab, brilliant footwork, devastating KO power & dazzling boxing skills, is "playground mentality"... the facts are that Lewis jab was nothing more than a Paw` it was a "distraction" not some kind of lethal weapon like the great jabs of Holmes, Ali & Liston.. Frank Bruno gave Lewis a lesson in jabbing.. which Lewis fight did he show this "fantastic jab?

against which opponents did Lewis show his "devastating KO power" - Rahman was poleaxed TWICE by Oleg Maskaev, so rule him out?

Lennox Lewis`s brilliant footwork`- Lewis had "2 Left-Feet" - against which opponent did he show this brilliant footwork ala Cassius Clay, Robinson, Leonard?

"Dazzling boxing skills` - against which opponents did Lewis show these imaginary boxing skills?

Lennox Lewis was nothing special, he was a KO waiting to happen for almost every top 10 ATG Heavyweight.. his place on the ATG list is 15-20

Robert Daniels was a 32yr old Lightheavyweight
Ruddock was having his first fight in 18 months
Tyson weighed a career heaviest against Neilson

i would not call those impressive wins...

i have never read about any boxing expert having Lewis in their Top 5 ATG list and definately never No2 on their list

If Rahman & McCall can poleaxe a prime Lewis and Mercer lose a split decision to him then i am sure Tubbs & Thomas would pose big problems for him...

Tyson kocked-out Larry Holmes yet Holmes easily defeated Mercer and called for a fight with Lewis from 92 onwards..

Tyson hammered Bruno TWICE yet Lewis was out-jabbed and out-fought by Bruno, and was only victorious due to what i would call a "Lucky punch"

IMO Holyfield was Robbed`of the decision in his rematch with Lewis, its also the opinion of most ringside reporters who was at the fight.

The members who have posted on this topic have been split 50/50 on the hyporthetical match-ups of how Lewis would fare against 5 ATGs which leaves him well short of being the No2 ATG..

The facts are that Lennox never ever beat an ATG fighter who was in his prime and 99% of his opponents was on the slide when he fought them and not Class A fighters at that time.. now whichever way you want to "move the goalposts" it is a fact that cannot be over-looked when rating Lennox Lewis against the ATG fighters...

To assume that Lewis had some kind of fantastic jab, brilliant footwork, devastating KO power & dazzling boxing skills, is "playground mentality"... the facts are that Lewis jab was nothing more than a Paw` it was a "distraction" not some kind of lethal weapon like the great jabs of Holmes, Ali & Liston.. Frank Bruno gave Lewis a lesson in jabbing.. which Lewis fight did he show this "fantastic jab?

against which opponents did Lewis show his "devastating KO power" - Rahman was poleaxed TWICE by Oleg Maskaev, so rule him out?

Lennox Lewis`s brilliant footwork`- Lewis had "2 Left-Feet" - against which opponent did he show this brilliant footwork ala Cassius Clay, Robinson, Leonard?

"Dazzling boxing skills` - against which opponents did Lewis show these imaginary boxing skills?

Lennox Lewis was nothing special, he was a KO waiting to happen for almost every top 10 ATG Heavyweight.. his place on the ATG list is 15-20

Your posts are turning into hater posts now. All you are doing is criticizing him in anyway possible.

Then you say he's only an ATG to the Brits, but then in your next post you say he's top 15-20?

Just out of interest, where do you have Mike Tyson in your ATG list?

Robert Daniels was a 32yr old Lightheavyweight
Ruddock was having his first fight in 18 months
Tyson weighed a career heaviest against Neilson

i would not call those impressive wins...

i have never read about any boxing expert having Lewis in their Top 5 ATG list and definately never No2 on their list

If Rahman & McCall can poleaxe a prime Lewis and Mercer lose a split decision to him then i am sure Tubbs & Thomas would pose big problems for him...

Tyson kocked-out Larry Holmes yet Holmes easily defeated Mercer and called for a fight with Lewis from 92 onwards..

Tyson hammered Bruno TWICE yet Lewis was out-jabbed and out-fought by Bruno, and was only victorious due to what i would call a "Lucky punch"

IMO Holyfield was Robbed`of the decision in his rematch with Lewis, its also the opinion of most ringside reporters who was at the fight.

The members who have posted on this topic have been split 50/50 on the hyporthetical match-ups of how Lewis would fare against 5 ATGs which leaves him well short of being the No2 ATG..

The facts are that Lennox never ever beat an ATG fighter who was in his prime and 99% of his opponents was on the slide when he fought them and not Class A fighters at that time.. now whichever way you want to "move the goalposts" it is a fact that cannot be over-looked when rating Lennox Lewis against the ATG fighters...

To assume that Lewis had some kind of fantastic jab, brilliant footwork, devastating KO power & dazzling boxing skills, is "playground mentality"... the facts are that Lewis jab was nothing more than a Paw` it was a "distraction" not some kind of lethal weapon like the great jabs of Holmes, Ali & Liston.. Frank Bruno gave Lewis a lesson in jabbing.. which Lewis fight did he show this "fantastic jab?

against which opponents did Lewis show his "devastating KO power" - Rahman was poleaxed TWICE by Oleg Maskaev, so rule him out?

Lennox Lewis`s brilliant footwork`- Lewis had "2 Left-Feet" - against which opponent did he show this brilliant footwork ala Cassius Clay, Robinson, Leonard?

"Dazzling boxing skills` - against which opponents did Lewis show these imaginary boxing skills?

Lennox Lewis was nothing special, he was a KO waiting to happen for almost every top 10 ATG Heavyweight.. his place on the ATG list is 15-20




Excuses! Ruddock got nailed in 2 rounds, fact!


Any fighter can have problem with a lesser fighter if they overlook them and Ray Mercer's performances were renowned for going up and down, he could be very dangerous at his best.

Salvador Sanchez had a massive head ache with Pat Cowdell and Ruben Castillo but he knocked Azumad Nelson out and Nelson knocked Cowdell silly in 1 round. Sanchez was clearly a better fighter than Cowdell and Castillo but they still gave him trouble because he fought to the level of his opposition. It happens, but it does not mean Lewis was overrated. Mercer would of given Mike a hellluva fight to because Mercer had that chin and consistency in terms of, he kept coming.

Bruno fought Lewis when he was not in his prime, that Lewis would of lost to Bowe and Tyson but the prime Lewis is a different animal.

The facts are that Lennox never ever beat an ATG fighter who was in his prime

Neither did Mike, infact he lost to a 34 year old Holyfield who had been in wars with Stewart, Dokes, Bowe 1-3, Cooper and tough fights with Mercer, De Leon, Tillman and others. Mike Tyson has never really been in a tough tough fight imo, except!! the Douglas and Holyfield fight and he lost/quit in those fights. Tyson's fight with Ruddock was not really a particularly tough fight for Mike, it was a tough fight for Ruddock because he took a beating for most of the fight, he landed a couple of flurry's at the end of a couple of rounds but the story of the fight was..............Mike beating on Ruddock and Ruddock taking it untill he eventually could take no more, it was not really a tough fight irfor Mike though.

Tyson fans like to pretend he was past his best when he fought Holyfield, but they forget that Holyfield was 34 and had been in many many wars and he had been knocked out by Bowe in the 3rd fight and lost his title to Moorer and looked terrible.

This is why Tyson fans overrate Mike because he lost to Holyfield legitimately because he was not as good as Holyfield.

Lewis had excellent skills for a big man, he was a very good counter puncher who dictated the distance with his height and intimidate people from bum rushing him with his big right hand and uppercut.

Lennox Lewis was nothing special,

Hater!

Lennox Lewis was nothing special,

Hater!

:boxing: exactly

Excuses! Ruddock got nailed in 2 rounds, fact!


Any fighter can have problem with a lesser fighter if they overlook them and Ray Mercer's performances were renowned for going up and down, he could be very dangerous at his best.

Salvador Sanchez had a massive head ache with Pat Cowdell and Ruben Castillo but he knocked Azumad Nelson out and Nelson knocked Cowdell silly in 1 round. Sanchez was clearly a better fighter than Cowdell and Castillo but they still gave him trouble because he fought to the level of his opposition. It happens, but it does not mean Lewis was overrated. Mercer would of given Mike a hellluva fight to because Mercer had that chin and consistency in terms of, he kept coming.

Bruno fought Lewis when he was not in his prime, that Lewis would of lost to Bowe and Tyson but the prime Lewis is a different animal.

The facts are that Lennox never ever beat an ATG fighter who was in his prime

Neither did Mike, infact he lost to a 34 year old Holyfield who had been in wars with Stewart, Dokes, Bowe 1-3, Cooper and tough fights with Mercer, De Leon, Tillman and others. Mike Tyson has never really been in a tough tough fight imo, except!! the Douglas and Holyfield fight and he lost/quit in those fights. Tyson's fight with Ruddock was not really a particularly tough fight for Mike, it was a tough fight for Ruddock because he took a beating for most of the fight, he landed a couple of flurry's at the end of a couple of rounds but the story of the fight was..............Mike beating on Ruddock and Ruddock taking it untill he eventually could take no more, it was not really a tough fight irfor Mike though.

Tyson fans like to pretend he was past his best when he fought Holyfield, but they forget that Holyfield was 34 and had been in many many wars and he had been knocked out by Bowe in the 3rd fight and lost his title to Moorer and looked terrible.

This is why Tyson fans overrate Mike because he lost to Holyfield legitimately because he was not as good as Holyfield.

Lewis had excellent skills for a big man, he was a very good counter puncher who dictated the distance with his height and intimidate people from bum rushing him with his big right hand and uppercut.

Lennox Lewis was nothing special,

Hater!
Ruddock got nailed in two yes... But he was "damaged Goods" after taking 2 brutal beatings at the hands of Tyson

Azumah Nelson was a mere novice when losing in the 14th round to Sanchez... we are talking Lewis not Sanchez!

Lewis was not in his prime against Bruno (laughable) .. when was Lewis in his prime? .. a prime Lewis is an animal you claim, yet a prime Bowe & prime Tyson was only `dogmeat` for Lewis... IMO i would say it is the reverse.

Mike Tyson has been in many tough fights, his unification fight against a "Prime Tony Tucker" was a tough fight, unlike the Tucker who Lewis defeated 6yrs later who was a `Junkie`and a shell of his former self..

Yes Tyson was `past his best when he fought Holyfield, he had served severel prison sentences and been defeated by Douglas 6yrs previous...are you saying he was "in his prime"?

Holyfield`s lost to Bowe in their 3rd fight was supposedly down to "heart murmur".. his loss to Moorer was down to his inability to handle a very good southpaw... Lewis wanted nothing to do with Michael Moorer 94-96.. Holyfield avenged his defeat in their rematch.

When was their prime for Tyson, Lewis & Holyfield?

When was their prime for Tyson, Lewis & Holyfield?

Ruddock got nailed in two yes... But he was "damaged Goods" after taking 2 brutal beatings at the hands of Tyson

Azumah Nelson was a mere novice when losing in the 14th round to Sanchez... we are talking Lewis not Sanchez!

Lewis was not in his prime against Bruno (laughable) .. when was Lewis in his prime? .. a prime Lewis is an animal you claim, yet a prime Bowe & prime Tyson was only `dogmeat` for Lewis... IMO i would say it is the reverse.

Mike Tyson has been in many tough fights, his unification fight against a "Prime Tony Tucker" was a tough fight, unlike the Tucker who Lewis defeated 6yrs later who was a `Junkie`and a shell of his former self..

Yes Tyson was `past his best when he fought Holyfield, he had served severel prison sentences and been defeated by Douglas 6yrs previous...are you saying he was "in his prime"?

Holyfield`s lost to Bowe in their 3rd fight was supposedly down to "heart murmur".. his loss to Moorer was down to his inability to handle a very good southpaw... Lewis wanted nothing to do with Michael Moorer 94-96.. Holyfield avenged his defeat in their rematch.

When was their prime for Tyson, Lewis & Holyfield?

When was their prime for Tyson, Lewis & Holyfield?

You said that twice.

key word arguably but no way they are

No way Holmes is arguably. Larry is a top-five ATG, Lewis is not.

Poet

Your posts are turning into hater posts now. All you are doing is criticizing him in anyway possible.

Then you say he's only an ATG to the Brits, but then in your next post you say he's top 15-20?

Just out of interest, where do you have Mike Tyson in your ATG list?
i am not a hater, nor am i criticzing, what i am doing is giving my opinion of how i (myself) seen the career of Lennox Lewis... i can do the same with almost any boxer who i have followed and seen alot of,

there are some on here who are not haters but "nuthuggers" and claim that Lennox Lewis would destroy Joe Frazier similar to how he was beaten by George Foreman in 1973, i am a Frazier "nuthugger" and find it laughable the thought of Lennox Lewis entering a boxing ring with Smokin`Joe Frazier... Larry Holmes summed up this fight best in his book "Against the Odds" saying if Lewis was to have fought Joe Frazier "he would be bombed out within 2rds" by Smokin Joe`

dont take it out on me, as i only go by what i read and see with my own eyes, i have seen Lennox Lewis fight on 6 occasions and Joe Frazier on one occasion, my opinion is exactly the same as Larry Holmes opinion.

Ruddock got nailed in two yes... But he was "damaged Goods" after taking 2 brutal beatings at the hands of Tyson

Azumah Nelson was a mere novice when losing in the 14th round to Sanchez... we are talking Lewis not Sanchez!

Lewis was not in his prime against Bruno (laughable) .. when was Lewis in his prime? .. a prime Lewis is an animal you claim, yet a prime Bowe & prime Tyson was only `dogmeat` for Lewis... IMO i would say it is the reverse.

Mike Tyson has been in many tough fights, his unification fight against a "Prime Tony Tucker" was a tough fight, unlike the Tucker who Lewis defeated 6yrs later who was a `Junkie`and a shell of his former self..

Yes Tyson was `past his best when he fought Holyfield, he had served severel prison sentences and been defeated by Douglas 6yrs previous...are you saying he was "in his prime"?

Holyfield`s lost to Bowe in their 3rd fight was supposedly down to "heart murmur".. his loss to Moorer was down to his inability to handle a very good southpaw... Lewis wanted nothing to do with Michael Moorer 94-96.. Holyfield avenged his defeat in their rematch.

When was their prime for Tyson, Lewis & Holyfield?

When was their prime for Tyson, Lewis & Holyfield?






I dont see that much difference between Lewis and Sanchez in terms of quality they were both elite level fighters.

First off i did not say Lewis would beat Bowe prime 4 prime so i dont know where you got that from, second i did not say he would wipe the floor with Mike in his prime, but i would favour him to win yes.

Lewis was probably in his physical prime against Bruno but prime to me is when your Boxing prime and your physical prime coincides, or somewhere inbetween/close.

Like Hopkins in 2001, he was able to sustain action and he was as good a technician as he could be without being to far gone physically.


A tough fight is having someone pound on you and ask questions of you like Douglas and Holfield did, Mike has always been in the ascendancy in most of his fights up untill then. A tough fight is Evander vs Dokes give AND TAKE.


Going to prison puts more wear and tear on your Body than the amount of wars Holy had been in ? hmmm i think not. Tyson had as much left as Evander if not more you could argue, but definably not less. Holyfield did not look great after beating Tyson besides his beat down of Moorer who had life and death with Francois Botha!!! he should of lost all 3 Ruiz fights and he lost to Lewis twice.


Holyfield lost the fight bottom line and looked terrible, make all the excuses you like it happened.

Accept that Mike lost to Evander when they both had virtually the same amount left because he was not good enough.

Ruddock got nailed in two yes... But he was "damaged Goods" after taking 2 brutal beatings at the hands of Tyson

While the two Rudduck fights were in my opinion impressive wins for Tyson neither of them were brutal beat downs that leave a fighter "damaged goods".


Lewis was not in his prime against Bruno (laughable) .. when was Lewis in his prime? .. a prime Lewis is an animal you claim, yet a prime Bowe & prime Tyson was only `dogmeat` for Lewis... IMO i would say it is the reverse.

Lewis prior to Manny Steward was getting by on his physical gifts alone.....a state easily exploited by a veteran fighter. Steward's Lewis poleaxes Bruno without much trouble.

Mike Tyson has been in many tough fights, his unification fight against a "Prime Tony Tucker" was a tough fight, unlike the Tucker who Lewis defeated 6yrs later who was a `Junkie`and a shell of his former self..

Bad example: Thomas had already squandered his abilities on Cocaine and was not long out of rehab when he fought Tyson.

Holyfield`s lost to Bowe in their 3rd fight was supposedly down to "heart murmur".. his loss to Moorer was down to his inability to handle a very good southpaw...

Holyfield had suffered from physical problems for at least a couple of years at the time and was considered "washed up" at the time he fought Tyson. Those problems more than anything else explain his trouble in Moorer I and Bowe III.

Lewis wanted nothing to do with Michael Moorer 94-96.. Holyfield avenged his defeat in their rematch.

When was their prime for Tyson, Lewis & Holyfield?

With Tyson most list it from the Berbick fight to the time he dumped Rooney. I put it at from the Tillis fight to Mike going to prison.

With Lewis it's more problematical because most of his physical prime was prior to Steward and his later fights he was past-prime physically so I would put it sometime after hooking up with Steward through, say, the Grant fight.

Poet

While the two Rudduck fights were in my opinion impressive wins for Tyson neither of them were brutal beat downs that leave a fighter "damaged goods".




Lewis prior to Manny Steward was getting by on his physical gifts alone.....a state easily exploited by a veteran fighter. Steward's Lewis poleaxes Bruno without much trouble.



Bad example: Thomas had already squandered his abilities on Cocaine and was not long out of rehab when he fought Tyson.



Holyfield had suffered from physical problems for at least a couple of years at the time and was considered "washed up" at the time he fought Tyson. Those problems more than anything else explain his trouble in Moorer I and Bowe III.





With Tyson most list it from the Berbick fight to the time he dumped Rooney. I put it at from the Tillis fight to Mike going to prison.

With Lewis it's more problematical because most of his physical prime was prior to Steward and his later fights he was past-prime physically so I would put it sometime after hooking up with Steward through, say, the Grant fight.

Poet


Great post Poet!

These Tyson fans are unreal, they have an excuse for everything!!!

Honestly some of you ardent tyson critics are now just being silly,I know you think it makes you look cool but it doesn't.It just makes you out to be a petty little know it all desperate to be looked at as an individual because you can criticise a well know boxer

Apparently 4 years of inactivity does no harm at all does it? No of course not

they was worthy world champions BUT they was not ATG fighters, not in the Jones, Toney, Leonard, Hagler, Hopkins league

:pat:

Steve Collins IMO does not merit being named on the same level as Benn, Eubank or Watson.

for what it's worth,Collins gave Mike Mccallum a far tougher fight than watson ever did

I don't understand you saying it's "laughable" to think of Lewis in the same ring as Joe Frazier.

I think this would be a very competative fight.

Holyfield`s lost to Bowe in their 3rd fight was supposedly down to "heart murmur".. his loss to Moorer was down to his inability to handle a very good southpaw... Lewis wanted nothing to do with Michael Moorer 94-96.. Holyfield avenged his defeat in their rematch.


Moorer never showed any interest in fighting Lewis. After beating Holyfield, he was asked numerous times if he would unify the title with Lewis. He ignored those calls and instead defended against an inactive 45-year-old.

Lewis was probably in his physical prime against Bruno but prime to me is when your Boxing prime and your physical prime coincides, or somewhere inbetween/close.

An interesting way of looking at it.....I'll have to give it some serious thought. Generally speaking, I put a fighter's prime as between the post when their bodies mature (AND they've developed their skills and gotten the nessecary experience) and when their reflexes start to slide. To me, "shot" means their reflexes have completely gone (see Ali Vs. Holmes, Louis Vs. Marciano, and Holyfield Vs. Just About Everyone The Past 5 Years).

Poet

Moorer never showed any interest in fighting Lewis. After beating Holyfield, he was asked numerous times if he would unify the title with Lewis. He ignored those calls and instead defended against an inactive 45-year-old.

Yeah, I seriously doubt "Shattered Glass" Moorer struck fear in Lewis' heart.

Poet

Lewis prior to Manny Steward was getting by on his physical gifts alone.....a state easily exploited by a veteran fighter. Steward's Lewis poleaxes Bruno without much trouble.

Stewards Lewis got out boxed and out jabbed by a shorter smaller inactive Ray Mercer,So don't all into flawed predictions pedopoet

An interesting way of looking at it.....I'll have to give it some serious thought. Generally speaking, I put a fighter's prime as between the post when their bodies mature (AND they've developed their skills and gotten the nessecary experience) and when their reflexes start to slide. To me, "shot" means their reflexes have completely gone (see Ali Vs. Holmes, Louis Vs. Marciano, and Holyfield Vs. Just About Everyone The Past 5 Years).

Poet



Yeah that sounds fair. I tend to think along the same lines.

I think 32+ might be more than mature for physical maturity though, and some fighters do hit their peak at that point in their career, so that is why i have that outlook. I mean how old was Hopkins in 2001 ?


Wasn't Lewis 33 when he hooked up with Manny or something ?


I think its difficult sometimes to categorize someone as prime just because they were successful in a certain period in their career, because they may have been successful because of WHO they were fighting more so than because of how much better they were at that point in their career.




I do agree with you in terms of what you are saying though.

Just as a point of interest, I threw a Poll thread out on NSB about 2 hours ago.. Asking, 'Is Lewis a top 10 ATG heavy?'.... It was about 30-1 in Lewis's favor last time I looked, and rightly so..

Just as a point of interest, I threw a Poll thread out on NSB about 2 hours ago.. Asking, 'Is Lewis a top 10 ATG heavy?'.... It was about 30-1 in Lewis's favor last time I looked, and rightly so..

And yet people think he's "nothing special"

Just as a point of interest, I threw a Poll thread out on NSB about 2 hours ago.. Asking, 'Is Lewis a top 10 ATG heavy?'.... It was about 30-1 in Lewis's favor last time I looked, and rightly so..


In my own personal opinion id agree with that.

He had his flaws but he was formidable at his best and used his advantages to the fullest when he hooked up with Stewart.

And yet people think he's "nothing special"

Certain people are morons. And prove it daily. Imagine the uproar if I said Tyson was "nothing special".....oh wait, I think I actually have a time or two to piss off Tyson's nuthuggers :rofl:

Poet