I was wondering.. How much does the number of fights a fighter got on his resume really mean..? If we take a guy like Julio Ceasar Chavez, the man had countless of fights but the majority of those were against part time fighters (not hating on the man). On the other hand we got fighters today who only fight around 40 fights but a lot of those are against quality opponents.. Fighters today fight a lot less then they did 50 years ago is this bad for boxing that they don't face almost anybody in the divison?

What's your take on this

Discuss.

quality > quantity

always has been, always will be.

quality > quantity

always has been, always will be.

Cosign. Activity is good, but better comp makes a better fighter more than constant stay busy fights.

Quality is better than quantity (i.e. Salvador Sanchez), but it has become somewhat detrimental to the sport. Look at the huge lags in activity we experience as fight fans, which also serves to keep boxing out of the public eye.

One of the things that makes activity level important is that it shows a fighter's durability. Obviously it's a physically (and mentally) taxing sport and it shows something if your body can handle all those fights. Also, if you're fighting all the time, you're more likely to have an off-night or run into a tough style matchup. I'm not talking about guys facing a 2-10 fighter or someone making their pro debut, but staying active against solid pro fighters. James Toney, in the early 90s while a champ, was staying active (Kellen did this to try to keep Toney from getting into trouble and getting fat) against a lot of veteran fighters.

Still, quality is more important.

For instance, I think extremely highly of Michael Spinks, who had just 32 pro fights. Ray Leonard had 40.

I was wondering.. How much does the number of fights a fighter got on his resume really mean..? If we take a guy like Julio Ceasar Chavez, the man had countless of fights but the majority of those were against part time fighters (not hating on the man). On the other hand we got fighters today who only fight around 40 fights but a lot of those are against quality opponents.. Fighters today fight a lot less then they did 50 years ago is this bad for boxing that they don't face almost anybody in the divison?

What's your take on this

Discuss.

Quantity shows a fighters longevity and toughness, but quality distinguishes his skills. I prefer a mix of both like fighters like Pep, Greb, Langford, Charles, Chavez, Robinson and many others practiced. Looking at their records you may find some spotty comp, but they stayed active and they still fought more top fighters than todays boxers do.

Quality is always better than quantity, you can be 100-0 fighting tomato cans.

There has to be a balance. Beating 5 B level fighters is better than beating 1 A level fighter. Leonard's resume for instance is pretty damn weak outside the top names on it.

In 40 fights these are Leonard's only notable wins:

Floyd Mayweather
Armando Muniz
Wilfred Benitez
Dave Green
Roberto Duran (x2)
Ayub Kalule
Thomas Hearns
Marvin Hagler
Donny Lalonde

The two best p4p fighters Leonard beat (Duran & Hearns), have better resumes than him. Why? Cuz they fought more...

for a minute there I thought Dunce was referring to sugar ray robinson but then I saw a number of black fighters in that particular reseme list and realised it was obviously someone else.My mistake

for a minute there I thought Dunce was referring to sugar ray robinson but then I saw a number of black fighters in that particular reseme list and realised it was obviously someone else.My mistake

WOW. You have SERIOUS issues. :tool:

for a minute there I thought Dunce was referring to sugar ray robinson but then I saw a number of black fighters in that particular reseme list and realised it was obviously someone else.My mistake

Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan
Randy Turpin
George Costner
Jose Basora
Jackie Wilson
Ray Barnes
Tommy Bell
Holley Mims
Aaron Wade

weren't black?

I was wondering.. How much does the number of fights a fighter got on his resume really mean..? If we take a guy like Julio Ceasar Chavez, the man had countless of fights but the majority of those were against part time fighters (not hating on the man). On the other hand we got fighters today who only fight around 40 fights but a lot of those are against quality opponents.. Fighters today fight a lot less then they did 50 years ago is this bad for boxing that they don't face almost anybody in the divison?

What's your take on this

Discuss.

Excellent point. Joe Frazier is a perfect example. Not a lot of fights, but he fought the best Heavyweights of his era except Ken Norton. His resume is outstanding!!!!!!!!

Excellent point. Joe Frazier is a perfect example. Not a lot of fights, but he fought the best Heavyweights of his era except Ken Norton. His resume is outstanding!!!!!!!!

Um...no.

He also didn't fight:

Larry Holmes
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Floyd Patterson
Ron Lyle
Ernie Terrell

I could go on and on...

Um...no.

He also didn't fight:

Larry Holmes
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Floyd Patterson
Ron Lyle
Ernie Terrell

I could go on and on...

By the time he became heavyweight champ, Terrell was done. Had Floyd not been robbed in the heavyweight tournament, Frazier would have fought him and destroyed him. He would have destroyed Lyle as well and Shavers. Young would have given him problems.

By the time he became heavyweight champ, Terrell was done. Had Floyd not been robbed in the heavyweight tournament, Frazier would have fought him and destroyed him. He would have destroyed Lyle as well and Shavers. Young would have given him problems.

Oooo I see. We're going with the RJJ philosophy. Doesn't matter that he didn't fight them, cuz he would have beat them anyways. Got it.

Oooo I see. We're going with the RJJ philosophy. Doesn't matter that he didn't fight them, cuz he would have beat them anyways. Got it.

Frazier didn't really get a chance to fight them. Patterson lost to Ellis (a robbery) and retired for a brief period, Terrell went downhill after losing to Ali and Spencer, Lyle and Shavers were close to getting their shot if not for losing to Quarry decisively, Holmes and Young weren't contenders until Frazier himself had already retired in the late 70's.

Frazier didn't really get a chance to fight them. Patterson lost to Ellis (a robbery) and retired for a brief period, Terrell went downhill after losing to Ali and Spencer, Lyle and Shavers were close to getting their shot if not for losing to Quarry decisively, Holmes and Young weren't contenders until Frazier himself had already retired in the late 70's.

Um, yet Ali fought all these guys. Frazier was on the decline...so? Ali was over the hill when he beat half of his best opposition.

Um, yet Ali fought all these guys. Frazier was on the decline...so? Ali was over the hill when he beat half of his best opposition.

It would have been good not to see Ali fight Jimmy Young, Earnie Shavers and Larry Holmes. Those fights didn't really do his legacy any good. He should have retired after the Thrilla in Manila in my opinion.

Frazier himself might as well have retired after beating Ali, because that was what he said he would do, retire at the top. For a fighter of his style he needed all the fire, hunger and determination he had before fighting Ali.

Holmes made his name in 1978 when he beat Norton and Shavers. By then Frazier had been retired for two years.

Young was an unknown until fighting Ali and Foreman in 1976 and 1977.

Lyle and Shavers were both possible title challengers for Frazier in 1973 but they failed in their step-up against former Frazier opponent Jerry Quarry.

Terrell fought in a different era than Frazier, the early and mid 1960's. By 1967 (when Frazier made his mark) he had lost three in a row.

Patterson as I said would have fought Frazier had he won the Ellis fight which he deserved. He wasn't given the decision and retired in disgust until coming back a few years later.

From 1967 to 1971 Frazier fought pretty much everyone that mattered. I'm not saying his resume is on Ali's level but for someone with just 37 fights it's extremely good. By his 20th fight he had already fought contenders Oscar Bonavena, George Chuvalo, Buster Mathis, Eddie Machen, Manuel Ramos and Doug Jones.

All in all he fought

Muhammad Ali (x3)
George Foreman (x2)
Jimmy Ellis (x2)
Jerry Quarry (x2)
Oscar Bonavena (x2)
Joe Bugner
George Chuvalo
Bob Foster
Buster Mathis
Eddie Machen
Manuel Ramos
Doug Jones

I'm not down with the whole eliminator philosophy. Just cuz a guy loses to someone else, doesn't mean you don't fight him later. There are more names I could have listed that he didn't fight, I simply didn't see a point. He fought in the "golden age" of Heavyweights and only managed to fight 11 credible Heavyweights. There were around 30.

Henry Armstrong
Kid Gavilan
Randy Turpin
George Costner
Jose Basora
Jackie Wilson
Ray Barnes
Tommy Bell
Holley Mims
Aaron Wade

weren't black?

Holman Williams
Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Archie Moore
Lloyd Marshall
Eddie Booker
Rory Calhoun
Spider Webb

Weren't black?

Um...no.

He also didn't fight:

Larry Holmes
Earnie Shavers
Jimmy Young
Floyd Patterson
Ron Lyle
Ernie Terrell

I could go on and on...


Due to the nature of boxing and the constant churn of contenders there's always someone a fighter fails to meet. You can go through virtually anyone's career and pick out a few they didn't face. What's more important is what was going on when they were supposed to meet and who they were facing instead.

Holmes and Frazier’s careers never really intersected. Holmes was not a relevant heavy by the time Frazier retired, and in fact didn’t fight any kind of ranked contender til Shavers in ‘78. In any case, I very much doubt King would have risked Larry against someone like Frazier at that point in his career. Incidentally, you can make a much longer list of prime contenders Holmes failed to meet in his era…

Okay I suppose he could have fought Terrell and Patterson in the 60s/early 70s but given his schedule in that time frame included Ali, Bonavena, Quarry, Mathis, Ellis, Machen and Chuvalo, it’s unlikely he was avoiding them. Floyd and Terrell were hardly two of boxing’s great duckees.

I know Shavers’ current rep is that both Foreman and Frazier ducked him, but the reality is he wasn’t even ranked in the top ten for much of the 70s. He first cracked the top ten in late ‘73 (World Boxing Magazine) by which time Frazier-Ali II had already been signed. He then promptly lost to Quarry, who subsequently fought Frazier, and within a year had also lost to Bob Stallings. Shavers wasn’t a big factor in the division again til Frazier had retired.

A Lyle fight in 74-75 would have been more meaningful than the Ellis rematch, so I agree on that. Even so, Frazier’s post-title resume of Ali (twice), Foreman, Bugner and Quarry is not the resume of someone ducking significant challenges.

Holman Williams
Cocoa Kid
Jack Chase
Charley Burley
Archie Moore
Lloyd Marshall
Eddie Booker
Rory Calhoun
Spider Webb

Weren't black?

Cocoa Kid a welterweight contender in the early 1940's ranked below Jackie Wilson who beat him (and whom Robinson defeated twice). By 1943 he fought as a middleweight.

Jack Chase a middleweight for much of the 1940's until campaigning as a light heavy from 1945 onwards.

Charley Burley vs Ray Robinson could have been made but it wouldn't have done Robinson's welterweight campaign any good, since Burley left the welterweight division by 1941 (when Robinson was 19 years of age).

Archie Moore was a middleweight/light heavy. The only point in time this fight could have happened was in the late 1950's when both were old men. Robinson was more interested in a match-up with Floyd Patterson, the heavyweight champion.

Lloyd Marshall was another middleweight/light heavy. Tough to accuse a man of ducking a fighter who fought a division or two above his.

Eddie Booker yet another middleweight/light heavy whose career came to a sudden end in 1944.

Rory Calhoun the fringe middleweight contender in the late 1950's?

Webb was good but he couldn't beat Gene Fullmer in two attempts.

Robinson always beat his top ranked challenger whatever the colour of his skin.

Henry Armstrong was the number 1 welterweight contender before Robinson beat him.
Jackie Wilson was top 3.
Tommy Bell was number 1.
Bernard Docusen was top 3.
George Costner was top 2.
Kid Gavilan was number 1.

What we are not going to be is heroes, taking those cats everybody has avoided. Every ranking fighter for the past six years has got position by staying away from Zora Folley, and that's what we are going to do.

anyone wish to guess who made this statement?

Due to the nature of boxing and the constant churn of contenders there's always someone a fighter fails to meet. You can go through virtually anyone's career and pick out a few they didn't face. What's more important is what was going on when they were supposed to meet and who they were facing instead.

Holmes and Frazier’s careers never really intersected. Holmes was not a relevant heavy by the time Frazier retired, and in fact didn’t fight any kind of ranked contender til Shavers in ‘78. In any case, I very much doubt King would have risked Larry against someone like Frazier at that point in his career. Incidentally, you can make a much longer list of prime contenders Holmes failed to meet in his era…

Okay I suppose he could have fought Terrell and Patterson in the 60s/early 70s but given his schedule in that time frame included Ali, Bonavena, Quarry, Mathis, Ellis, Machen and Chuvalo, it’s unlikely he was avoiding them. Floyd and Terrell were hardly two of boxing’s great duckees.

I know Shavers’ current rep is that both Foreman and Frazier ducked him, but the reality is he wasn’t even ranked in the top ten for much of the 70s. He first cracked the top ten in late ‘73 (World Boxing Magazine) by which time Frazier-Ali II had already been signed. He then promptly lost to Quarry, who subsequently fought Frazier, and within a year had also lost to Bob Stallings. Shavers wasn’t a big factor in the division again til Frazier had retired.

A Lyle fight in 74-75 would have been more meaningful than the Ellis rematch, so I agree on that. Even so, Frazier’s post-title resume of Ali (twice), Foreman, Bugner and Quarry is not the resume of someone ducking significant challenges.

Tyson didn't fight Witherspoon, Dokes, or Page (who dropped Tyson in sparring). Bowe didn't fight Rudduck, Witherspoon, Mercer, Bruno, Tua, or Lewis. Holyfield didn't fight Rudduck, Bruno, Witherspoon or Tua. Marciano didn't fight Patterson. It's endless the way this can be done with any fighter's resume.

Poet

Think this happens when you look at a fighters record retrospectively. You look at who was around in that era and think he was good why didn't he get a shot. What is sometimes difficult to work out via boxingrec etc is that the guy would lose a fight and go back a year. Win a few good fights then lose another and so on. Lots of fighters are one fight off of a shot and screw it up. The gut in my avatar being a classic case, Louis offers him a shot and he decides to pick up a bit of spending money in Sweden on the way home. Gets robbed in Stockholm and end of broadcast. There is often a small window of opportunity for contenders and not all climb through it at the right time if at all.