View Full Version : The Disrespect shown to Lennox Lewis


Infern0
07-21-2009, 11:13 PM
Its laughable really, all you old timers in here. Most of you put Lewis in the top 10 ATG at heavbyweight, but everyone of you votes against him in head to head against anyone decent at heavyweight.

Tyson, Holy, Spinks, Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, riddick bowe, joe walcott, jack johnson, anyone else you care to think of. Anytime Lewis goes up against one of these guys all i see is "lewis was overrated" "lewis was glassed jawed"

so who in your opinion would he actually beat!

Spartacus Sully
07-21-2009, 11:49 PM
Tommy morrison, ray mercer, shannon briggs, evander holyfeild,and an old tyson.

Personally im not sure where i rate lennox probaly around 25

Infern0
07-21-2009, 11:54 PM
25!

your rating him a bit too highly my old friend, i cant see a place for him in the top 100!

Spartacus Sully
07-22-2009, 12:07 AM
I was just talking about heavy weights but of all time and classes i would probably put him up around the 70's right next to peter mcneely

0Rooster4Life0
07-22-2009, 01:04 AM
Im not an Old Timer.... im in my 20s, just because we know our history doesnt mean we are all 90 years old lol.


I rate Lennox Highly, and would Give him a great chance to beat Most of the old Greats you mentioned.

There may be a few that dont rate Lennox very high, and dont give him credit in fantasy matchups, But that is the same when you mention Marciano with the Modern fans. Most Modern fans underate Marciano and give him little chance against todays fights.

Its not a one way street.

Rooster

Jim Jeffries
07-22-2009, 01:09 AM
25!

your rating him a bit too highly my old friend, i cant see a place for him in the top 100!

I'm afraid he's baiting you old chap. Most historians worth their salt have Lennox in their top 10 ATG HW list, and in head to head matchups surely makes top 5. In spite of his two KO losses, which he avenged, he was very hard to hit, possessed an excellent jab, and took some hard punches from some pretty big hitters, like Vitali, Tyson, Rahman, Tua, Briggs, Bruno, Ruddock, etc. Plus he had the power in either hand to put you away if you left yourself open going for his chin.

Benny Leonard
07-22-2009, 01:21 AM
I haven't made a true list so I couldn't tell you exactly where I would place Lennox but I do know if I were to start making a top 10 list right now in no particular order, Lewis would be a top 10 HW.

For Fantasy Matchups: hard to say how many could really beat him at his best. I guess I could favor just a handful of fighters beating him but I could always see it going in Lewis's favor as well.

And NO, he didn't have a "Glass Chin." It wasn't a legendary chin like Chuvalo gets credit for but it wasn't Glass. He was knocked out twice by two Big HWs that each threw/connected with a bomb on his chin.


I'm not sure about Fantasy Matchups but Lewis is the type of fighter you could at least see winning as well so if anything, it would be more like a 55/45...maybe 60/40 tops, in someone else's favor if I wanted to favor someone else.

Infern0
07-22-2009, 01:32 AM
I dont mind people picking other fighters, its just that often he is given no chance and i think even a bum has a chance you know!

Benny Leonard
07-22-2009, 01:41 AM
I dont mind people picking other fighters, its just that often he is given no chance and i think even a bum has a chance you know!

Just laugh.

I actually want to see an updated list from some of the noted Sports-Writers to see where they have him listed. But in the end, it is up for the fan to do their own research and come to their own conclusion.

JAB5239
07-22-2009, 04:44 AM
I dont mind people picking other fighters, its just that often he is given no chance and i think even a bum has a chance you know!

I don't think I've seen any respected poster not give Lewis a chance against any other great in a head to head match up. Personaly I would pick Holmes and Ali over him, and give Louis, Liston, Foreman and Jack Johnson a favorable shot. Other than that I don't really think any other heavyweight in history beats him.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 04:47 AM
Its laughable really, all you old timers in here. Most of you put Lewis in the top 10 ATG at heavbyweight, but everyone of you votes against him in head to head against anyone decent at heavyweight.

Tyson, Holy, Spinks, Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, riddick bowe, joe walcott, jack johnson, anyone else you care to think of. Anytime Lewis goes up against one of these guys all i see is "lewis was overrated" "lewis was glassed jawed"

so who in your opinion would he actually beat!
Please don't include me.. I rate him at no4 AT on boxing ability, & have at least one altercation every day concerning this.. But, yes, you're right, the majority generally don't like him and/or don't rate him.. I wonder what the reasons are?
I know a lot of fans in the UK still haven't forgiven him for cashing in over there after winning Olympic gold for Canada.. And a lot of US fans tend to think he had a glass jaw & avoided top fighters in their prime, then you have the Klitchsko fans who say their man was robbed..
My only criticism would be his ****iness.. That's the reason he got KO'd twice.. But... That's all that did happen to him, & other than that he was pretty damn near perfect, avenging both defeats & proving himself to be the dominant HW of his era..
I would imagine you've posted this in response to the odd clown, who thinks he gets owned my Spinks, simply because he was helped back to his dressing room after getting KO'd by McCall.. That's the type of reasoning we're dealing with here..

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 04:53 AM
I'm a reformed Lewis doubter, ever since the McCall loss I expected him to lose to everyone with decent credentials (or a punch!).

I thought lightning would strike twice with McCall, but I didn't end up giving him a round!

I remember telling everyone that Golota would beat him, Golota destroyed in 1!

Then I thought he'd lose to the huge and heavy handed Michael Grant who was destroyed in two.

Then I thought David Tua had the 12 round pace and punch to beat Lewis. He barely won a round!

After the Rahman loss, I didn't give Lewis a chance in the return, I thought he was too old, too slow at this point. Wrong again, Lewis was awesome, fast and sharp in stopping him in 4 rounds.

My final doubt came the night he faced Tyson. Tyson had looked in good form for a couple of years destroying Norris, Golota, Francis, Savarese and Nielsen. Many boxing pundits were tipping Tyson to find Lewis's suspect chin and once again I found myself agreeing that if McCall and Rahman could find once punch KOs.....certainly Tyson could. Wrong again!

I didn't dare pick a winner in his fight with Vitali Klitschko, I thought Vitali was a real threat, but I was sick of getting Lewis predictions wrong. Both fought with heart, both survived sickening shots, neither went down. I'd have preferred a technical draw here but cut rules are cut rules!

This all left me with the conclusion that, frankly Lennox Lewis was a truely superb heavyweight, one of the best to grace the sport and certainly a top ten all time great. I think its a crying shame that we didn't see him face the peak Holyfield and Bowe around 1992, he may well have lost these matches, tough to pick..........but Lewis wasn't at his peak till five years later.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 05:28 AM
I'm a reformed Lewis doubter, ever since the McCall loss I expected him to lose to everyone with decent credentials (or a punch!).

I thought lightning would strike twice with McCall, but I didn't end up giving him a round!

I remember telling everyone that Golota would beat him, Golota destroyed in 1!

Then I thought he'd lose to the huge and heavy handed Michael Grant who was destroyed in two.

Then I thought David Tua had the 12 round pace and punch to beat Lewis. He barely won a round!

After the Rahman loss, I didn't give Lewis a chance in the return, I thought he was too old, too slow at this point. Wrong again, Lewis was awesome, fast and sharp in stopping him in 4 rounds.

My final doubt came the night he faced Tyson. Tyson had looked in good form for a couple of years destroying Norris, Golota, Francis, Savarese and Nielsen. Many boxing pundits were tipping Tyson to find Lewis's suspect chin and once again I found myself agreeing that if McCall and Rahman could find once punch KOs.....certainly Tyson could. Wrong again!

I didn't dare pick a winner in his fight with Vitali Klitschko, I thought Vitali was a real threat, but I was sick of getting Lewis predictions wrong. Both fought with heart, both survived sickening shots, neither went down. I'd have preferred a technical draw here but cut rules are cut rules!

This all left me with the conclusion that, frankly Lennox Lewis was a truely superb heavyweight, one of the best to grace the sport and certainly a top ten all time great. I think its a crying shame that we didn't see him face the peak Holyfield and Bowe around 1992, he may well have lost these matches, tough to pick..........but Lewis wasn't at his peak till five years later.
A truly great post.. Everyone should read this at least twice..

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 05:31 AM
Your a gentleman and a boxing scholer Mickey.

Kid McCoy
07-22-2009, 05:40 AM
I would imagine you've posted this in response to the odd clown, who thinks he gets owned my Spinks, simply because he was helped back to his dressing room after getting KO'd by McCall.. That's the type of reasoning we're dealing with here..

I've just watched the first McCall fight again and I maintain the stoppage was premature. Lewis had taken no punishment up to that point, he was up at the count of 5/6 and the way he put his gloves up and immediately protested the stoppage tells me he still had enough of his wits about him. To my mind the champion deserves the benefit of the doubt in that situation.

I've seen fighters in worse condition than that allowed to continue. Bowe in the Golota rematch, Holyfield against Bowe, Holmes against Snipes, where Holmes got up and promptly staggered into the turnbuckle. Put that referee in charge of that and the Shavers fight and Larry likely gets waved off both times.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 05:55 AM
I've just watched the first McCall fight again and I maintain the stoppage was premature. Lewis had taken no punishment up to that point, he was up at the count of 5/6 and the way he put his gloves up and immediately protested the stoppage tells me he still had enough of his wits about him. To my mind the champion deserves the benefit of the doubt in that situation.

I've seen fighters in worse condition than that allowed to continue. Bowe in the Golota rematch, Holyfield against Bowe, Holmes against Snipes, where Holmes got up and promptly staggered into the turnbuckle. Put that referee in charge of that and the Shavers fight and Larry likely gets waved off both times.
Check out the post.. It's on the Spinks Vs Lewis thread, written by SonnyBox.. He actually raises one or two interesting points as an eye witness.. On that, I have no reason to disbelieve him, but I know he doesn't rate Lewis..

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 05:56 AM
The McCall fight didn't really harm his career too much in the end, premature or not. Granted I've seen more obviously hurt fighters be allowed to carry on.

Sonnybox will no doubt be on later to tell you he was ringside that night and that Lewis was glassy eyed and couldn't walk properly leaving the ring. Hell, I've only got the fight on VHS! He may be right.

If Lewis didn't lose to McCall he wouldn't have sacked motormouth Pepe Correa, (whose 200MPH advice inbetween rounds is the worst I can ever recall from a trainer of world class boxers!) he may not have hooked up with Manny Steward (who was in the opposite corner that night) and a knockout may have happened if he ended up meeting someone like Bowe, lets say in late 2004, early 2005. Steward and Lewis were a good team, we got to see the best of Lennox when Manny was in his corner.

Kid McCoy
07-22-2009, 06:08 AM
Check out the post.. It's on the Spinks Vs Lewis thread, written by SonnyBox.. He actually raises one or two interesting points as an eye witness.. On that, I have no reason to disbelieve him, but I know he doesn't rate Lewis..

Lewis looked okay to me in the ring afterwards. There's just something about a Don King fighter benefiting from a questionable decision by a referee never heard from before or since that has me a little suspicious. Maybe I'm just cynical. :)

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 07:37 AM
Lewis looked okay to me in the ring afterwards. There's just something about a Don King fighter benefiting from a questionable decision by a referee never heard from before or since that has me a little suspicious. Maybe I'm just cynical. :)
Once again, good point from SugarJ on Correa, he had to be the worst trainer of all time..
With ref to the KO, I think it would'a KO'd anyone.. This is Oliver McCall we're talking about, & certainly one of the strongest heavies of all time.. Only the ref could see into Lewis's eyes, & according to some ringsiders that night, on returning to his corner, asked Correa, "What Happened?" I think the stoppage may have been fair in this one.. I mean, imagine what that punch would'a done to Michael Spinks.. In fact, when you look at the rematch, had it not been for the mental breakdown, Lewis would've had to go the distance 4 sure.. McCall offered zero defense & allowed Lewis to unload some monsterous shots, while just walking about, shaking his head & crying.. Really was a combination of amazing & bizarre.. Don't think anyone will ever KO the Bull..

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 07:47 AM
Greatest chin of all time may go to Mr McCall! He cryed during his ring walk to Wembley before facing Bruno too.

He rebounded to stop Akinwande late and is still active. McCall had potential, but he was a headcase with substance issues.

joe strong
07-22-2009, 07:53 AM
all of them without a doubt!

Kid McCoy
07-22-2009, 07:58 AM
Once again, good point from SugarJ on Correa, he had to be the worst trainer of all time..
With ref to the KO, I think it would'a KO'd anyone.. This is Oliver McCall we're talking about, & certainly one of the strongest heavies of all time.. Only the ref could see into Lewis's eyes, & according to some ringsiders that night, on returning to his corner, asked Correa, "What Happened?" I think the stoppage may have been fair in this one.. I mean, imagine what that punch would'a done to Michael Spinks.. In fact, when you look at the rematch, had it not been for the mental breakdown, Lewis would've had to go the distance 4 sure.. McCall offered zero defense & allowed Lewis to unload some monsterous shots, while just walking about, shaking his head & crying.. Really was a combination of amazing & bizarre.. Don't think anyone will ever KO the Bull..

But given how it happened, in a world title fight, an early knockdown, champion up at the count of 5, wobbly but appeared to have his senses about him, you don't think Lewis deserved the chance to carry on? No one but the ref knows what he saw in Lewis' eyes, but Lewis was equally hurt against Briggs and Klitschko but recovered quickly against them, and McCall, strong as he was, was no Joe Louis as a finisher. Like I said, I've seen fighters in a worse state allowed to continue, even in recent times.

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 07:59 AM
Yea too right..............sorry what are you celebrating there Joe so I can join in.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 08:31 AM
But given how it happened, in a world title fight, an early knockdown, champion up at the count of 5, wobbly but appeared to have his senses about him, you don't think Lewis deserved the chance to carry on? No one but the ref knows what he saw in Lewis' eyes, but Lewis was equally hurt against Briggs and Klitschko but recovered quickly against them, and McCall, strong as he was, was no Joe Louis as a finisher. Like I said, I've seen fighters in a worse state allowed to continue, even in recent times.
And against Bruno to.. But there is a difference between being wobbled & put flat out on your back.. It was a massive punch, & reminiscent of Curry McCrory.. Had it have continued, the KO would'a been even worse, & like McCrory, Lewis would never have been the same again.. Just the way I see it.. I still say the stoppage was fair, as McCall would'a been fresh to pounce.. Lewis wasn't his usual smooth talking self during the post fight interview either.. Had it not happened during that fight, it would'a probably happened in the next.. At the time, Lewis had a crap trainer & by his own admission was starting to get ****y..

fight_professor
07-22-2009, 10:47 AM
Tommy morrison, ray mercer, shannon briggs, evander holyfeild,and an old tyson.

Personally im not sure where i rate lennox probaly around 25

Bert Sugar places him 19th amongst HW.

I reckon Lennox would beat quite a few of the names listed. Superb boxer, lovely jab. Huge size which he obviously utilized. He'd just jab and jab, break guys down and score a late stoppage or decision win.

The likes of Dempsey etc arent beating him. They dont get passed his jab.

I'd pick (primes) for sure over Lewis:

Ali
Holmes
Tyson
Foreman
Liston

Against others, its a fight. :boxing:

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 10:48 AM
I give Lewis a very good chance at beating Foreman, Frazier, J. Johnson, Dempsey, Marciano, Wills, Norton, Bowe...

Here's a highlight I made of him:

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TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 10:57 AM
I also agree that Lewis should've been given a chance to continue against McCall.

He was wobbly and may have been flattened with the next punch thrown but I can't say I've ever seen another heavyweight championship fight stopped that early, it's not like Lewis was out on his feet.

McCall was also quite possibly the worst finisher of all time so Lewis may have very well escaped with an early scare and come back to win, which is something he was never given a chance to do.

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 11:01 AM
I loved that video Great A! A few KOs I haven't seen in a few years.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 11:16 AM
Great vid!.... How the hell did Holy take that uppercut?
Still divided on the stoppage.. He kinda protested with the wrong look on his face, but I'm not as sure as b4 re watching.. He is very glazed..

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 12:02 PM
Its laughable really, all you old timers in here. Most of you put Lewis in the top 10 ATG at heavbyweight, but everyone of you votes against him in head to head against anyone decent at heavyweight.

Tyson, Holy, Spinks, Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, riddick bowe, joe walcott, jack johnson, anyone else you care to think of. Anytime Lewis goes up against one of these guys all i see is "lewis was overrated" "lewis was glassed jawed"

so who in your opinion would he actually beat!Lennox Lewis is vastly over-rated and that is the opinion of most boxing fans over the age of 30, Lewis is NOT an ATG top ten fighter IMO nor is he in most fight-fans opinion, the reason being is Lewis never beat any great fighters who was at the top of their game, Lewis beat Mike Tyson 11yrs after Buster Douglas had hammered Tyson, 6yrs after Evander Holyfield had finished off what was left of Tyson, throw in several prison sentences and a load of narcotics and Lennox Lewis beat a shell of Mike Tyson, Lewis edged out Holyfield 7yrs after Riddick Bowe brutally butchered "The Real Deal`... many fight-fans are of the opinion that Holyfield was a clear victor in their return fight and was robbed of his titles, including the vast majority of sports writers who was sitting ringside..yet these two victories for Lewis are his only real career achievements against world class opposition, the rest of his championship victories leave him way behind the legendary Heavyweights of yesteryear as all his victories was against mediocre fighters or fighters who was on the slide and not worthy of a title fight.
Tucker -- Junkie
Botha -- steroid abuser
Butler --- c`mon
Mavrovich --- who?
Jackson ---- who?
Fortune --- who?
Bruno --- unfortunate after having Lewis on verge of KO
Golota -- had panic attack & was heavily sedated
Grant --- not worthy of title fight,class C fighter
Tua -- fattest man to ever fight for the title 255+lbs
Morrison -- recently KOd by Bent & HIV
Akinwande --- Who?
Briggs --- c`mon
Ruddock -- `Damaged Goods` after 2 brutal beatings

Lennox Lewis record does not entitle him to be rated as an ATG Top 10 fighter, his record is very poor when looked at against the "real great fighters in history" -- throw in the fact that Lewis was Poleaxed TWICE by journeymen fighters and its a closed case.. and lets not forget that fight-fans are aware that Lewis refused to fight the No1 contenders so was stripped of every championship belt, WBA for refusing to fight Ruiz, IBF for refusing to fight Byrd, WBC for refusing to fight Klitschko ... yet when Riddick Bowe refused to fight Lewis in 93 for a 50/50 purse split, Lewis claimed Bowe was `running scared`

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 12:29 PM
Your very prone to unresearched throw away statements Sonnybox:

'Lennox Lewis is vastly over-rated and that is the opinion of most boxing fans over the age of 30'.

Who are these people, your friends? Give me some stats, not throw away remarks. Most experts and sports writers have grudging respect for Lewis now. There is nothing wrong in stating an opinion but to say 'is vastly over-rated' is a bit too far.

Tyson's peak came in 1988, Holyfield's in 1991, Bowe's in 1992. Is a bleeding shame that Lennox didn't fight at least Holyfield and Bowe earlier, he may well have lost to them but Lewis's peak came in 1997 when he regained the title! Every champion is entitled to their own prime.

The 1997-2003 Lewis faced the best heavyweights in the world at the time. He only avoided John Ruiz......and we all know why....zzzzzzzz

But you're quick to criticise Lewis for facing Ruddock, everyone thought Razor was the most dangerous heavy behind Tyson. No one, not you, me or Lennox knew that the Tyson fights had taken so much out of him.

Same with Golota, its not Lewis's fault he had a panic attack, he was rightly touted as the next great thing after the Bowe wars.

Briggs was no pushover, he had a good record, fast hands and good power. No one was saying 'Shannon Who?' at the time.

Grant was also hyped as the next major heavy, no one was calling him 'C class before Lewis'. He was the best challenger at that point!

David Tua again was one of the best heavies of the late 90s and early millenium, no one begrudged him his title shot.

Vitali Klitschko: I'm not prepared to make a comment here.

Lewis faced everyone the fans asked of him in his second reign. Would you criticise Joe Louis for only fighting bums when thats all there was for several years?

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 12:33 PM
I'm sure he would criticize Lewis for ducking Tyson/Vitali had he fought Byrd and Ruiz instead.

If you ask me, Lewis took the right fights.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 12:39 PM
Ref: SonnyBox: Most of the guys on that list never fought Bowe or Holyfield.. Whose not to say that some of em may have upset either? Well Golota did in Bowes case, & do you think Holy would'a fancied his chances against Ruddock, who was being avoided by everyone at the time..
The 1st Holy fight could also be described as a robbery in Evander's favor.. Lewis was a clear winner in most peoples eyes..

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 12:44 PM
****... We must have all been writing at the same time... Er.. We've all totally agreed on something for once! lol

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 12:54 PM
Lennox Lewis is vastly over-rated and that is the opinion of most boxing fans over the age of 30, Lewis is NOT an ATG top ten fighter IMO nor is he in most fight-fans opinion, the reason being is Lewis never beat any great fighters who was at the top of their game, Lewis beat Mike Tyson 11yrs after Buster Douglas had hammered Tyson, 6yrs after Evander Holyfield had finished off what was left of Tyson, throw in several prison sentences and a load of narcotics and Lennox Lewis beat a shell of Mike Tyson, Lewis edged out Holyfield 7yrs after Riddick Bowe brutally butchered "The Real Deal`... many fight-fans are of the opinion that Holyfield was a clear victor in their return fight and was robbed of his titles, including the vast majority of sports writers who was sitting ringside..yet these two victories for Lewis are his only real career achievements against world class opposition, the rest of his championship victories leave him way behind the legendary Heavyweights of yesteryear as all his victories was against mediocre fighters or fighters who was on the slide and not worthy of a title fight.
Tucker -- Junkie
Botha -- steroid abuser
Butler --- c`mon
Mavrovich --- who?
Jackson ---- who?
Fortune --- who?
Bruno --- unfortunate after having Lewis on verge of KO
Golota -- had panic attack & was heavily sedated
Grant --- not worthy of title fight,class C fighter
Tua -- fattest man to ever fight for the title 255+lbs
Morrison -- recently KOd by Bent & HIV
Akinwande --- Who?
Briggs --- c`mon
Ruddock -- `Damaged Goods` after 2 brutal beatings

Lennox Lewis record does not entitle him to be rated as an ATG Top 10 fighter, his record is very poor when looked at against the "real great fighters in history" -- throw in the fact that Lewis was Poleaxed TWICE by journeymen fighters and its a closed case.. and lets not forget that fight-fans are aware that Lewis refused to fight the No1 contenders so was stripped of every championship belt, WBA for refusing to fight Ruiz, IBF for refusing to fight Byrd, WBC for refusing to fight Klitschko ... yet when Riddick Bowe refused to fight Lewis in 93 for a 50/50 purse split, Lewis claimed Bowe was `running scared`

Your very prone to unresearched throw away statements Sonnybox:

'Lennox Lewis is vastly over-rated and that is the opinion of most boxing fans over the age of 30'.

Who are these people, your friends? Give me some stats, not throw away remarks. Most experts and sports writers have grudging respect for Lewis now. There is nothing wrong in stating an opinion but to say 'is vastly over-rated' is a bit too far.

Tyson's peak came in 1988, Holyfield's in 1991, Bowe's in 1992. Is a bleeding shame that Lennox didn't fight at least Holyfield and Bowe earlier, he may well have lost to them but Lewis's peak came in 1997 when he regained the title! Every champion is entitled to their own prime.

The 1997-2003 Lewis faced the best heavyweights in the world at the time. He only avoided John Ruiz......and we all know why....zzzzzzzz

But you're quick to criticise Lewis for facing Ruddock, everyone thought Razor was the most dangerous heavy behind Tyson. No one, not you, me or Lennox knew that the Tyson fights had taken so much out of him.

Same with Golota, its not Lewis's fault he had a panic attack, he was rightly touted as the next great thing after the Bowe wars.

Briggs was no pushover, he had a good record, fast hands and good power. No one was saying 'Shannon Who?' at the time.

Grant was also hyped as the next major heavy, no one was calling him 'C class before Lewis'. He was the best challenger at that point!

David Tua again was one of the best heavies of the late 90s and early millenium, no one begrudged him his title shot.

Vitali Klitschko: I'm not prepared to make a comment here.

Lewis faced everyone the fans asked of him in his second reign. Would you criticise Joe Louis for only fighting bums when thats all there was for several years?sorry i cannot agree with you.. Lewis had an oppotunity to fight Mike Tyson in 96 for a career highest payday and a guaranteed world title fight, yet he baulked and sold his position to Holyfield for a meagre $2 million step-a-side money, he did NOT have to do that, he could have said "no thanks lets get it on" but Lewis knew he was a KO in the opening rounds for that version of Mike Tyson, Lewis peak did not come in 98 his peak was 92-98 Lewis only fought Class C fighters and old has-beens from 98 yet called it his peak after dodging all the top fighters throughout the 90s.. Briggs was not an elite fighter and never had been, Tua was weighing 30lbs more than he had in his fight against Ibeabuchi a few years earlier and Lewis knew he was far to heavy to pose a threat.. Ruddock had his jaw broken and eye-socket fractured in a brutal beating by Tyson in their 2nd fight. "i was at the fight Ruddock offered nothing".. Grant climbed off the floor to be awarded a victory over Golota who quit..now like it or not the real threats to Lennox Lewis was Chris Byrd and John Ruiz both of who beat Holyfield far easier than Lewis did, with Ruiz putting him on the floor something Lewis never came near to doing, Ruiz beat Rahman, Byrd easily beat Tua, yet Lennox Lewis wanted nothing to do with them, yet spewed out the crap "Johnny Louis dont deserve a title shot but Grant does, "Who had Grant beaten compared to Ruiz or Byrd.. the governing bodies was correct in stripping Lewis of their belts..Manny Stewart warned Lewis NOT to fight Byrd, saying Byrd would make Lewis look bad and that Lewis would lose a decision.. Lennox Lewis abrogated his responsibilities to boxing fans by refusing to fight the No1 contenders

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 12:58 PM
sorry i cannot agree with you.. Lewis had an oppotunity to fight Mike Tyson in 96 for a career highest payday and a guaranteed world title fight, yet he baulked and sold his position to Holyfield for a meagre $2 million step-a-side money, he did NOT have to do that, he could have said "no thanks lets get it on" but Lewis knew he was a KO in the opening rounds for that version of Mike Tyson, Lewis peak did not come in 98 his peak was 92-98 Lewis only fought Class C fighters and old has-beens from 98 yet called it his peak after dodging all the top fighters throughout the 90s.. Briggs was not an elite fighter and never had been, Tua was weighing 30lbs more than he had in his fight against Ibeabuchi a few years earlier and Lewis knew he was far to heavy to pose a threat.. Ruddock had his jaw broken and eye-socket fractured in a brutal beating by Tyson in their 2nd fight. "i was at the fight Ruddock offered nothing".. Grant climbed off the floor to be awarded a victory over Golota who quit..now like it or not the real threats to Lennox Lewis was Chris Byrd and John Ruiz both of who beat Holyfield far easier than Lewis did, with Ruiz putting him on the floor something Lewis never came near to doing, Ruiz beat Rahman, Byrd easily beat Tua, yet Lennox Lewis wanted nothing to do with them, yet spewed out the crap "Johnny Louis dont deserve a title shot but Grant does, "Who had Grant beaten compared to Ruiz or Byrd.. the governing bodies was correct in stripping Lewis of their belts..Manny Stewart warned Lewis NOT to fight Byrd, saying Byrd would make Lewis look bad and that Lewis would lose a decision.. Lennox Lewis abrogated his responsibilities to boxing fans by refusing to fight the No1 contenders

Tyson paid Lewis millions of dollars for him to step aside and that is somehow Lewis' fault?

Sorry but it's so easy to pick apart any fighters' resume in the way that you do.

Accusing Lewis of ducking Ruiz and Byrd is ridiculous.

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 01:07 PM
Ref: SonnyBox: Most of the guys on that list never fought Bowe or Holyfield.. Whose not to say that some of em may have upset either? Well Golota did in Bowes case, & do you think Holy would'a fancied his chances against Ruddock, who was being avoided by everyone at the time..
The 1st Holy fight could also be described as a robbery in Evander's favor.. Lewis was a clear winner in most peoples eyes..very good point and you may be right in assuming that `some of em may have upset either` although i doubt that ... Ruddock had scored a very brutal KO over Dokes yet he was one-handed with virtually no boxing ability, i cannot see him beating Bowe or Holyfield in the early 90s.. yes Lewis looked to be the clear winner in his 1st fight with Holyfield i agree but that Holyfield was a far cry from the Holyfield of the early 90s.. Lewis victory over Mike Tyson was no greater than Danny Williams or Kevin McBride`s victory over the old former great.

mickey malone
07-22-2009, 01:10 PM
very good point and you may be right in assuming that `some of em may have upset either` although i doubt that ... Ruddock had scored a very brutal KO over Dokes yet he was one-handed with virtually no boxing ability, i cannot see him beating Bowe or Holyfield in the early 90s.. yes Lewis looked to be the clear winner in his 1st fight with Holyfield i agree but that Holyfield was a far cry from the Holyfield of the early 90s.. Lewis victory over Mike Tyson was no greater than Danny Williams or Kevin McBride`s victory over the old former great.
Agreed on the Tyson victory..

bojangles1987
07-22-2009, 01:10 PM
Its laughable really, all you old timers in here. Most of you put Lewis in the top 10 ATG at heavbyweight, but everyone of you votes against him in head to head against anyone decent at heavyweight.

Tyson, Holy, Spinks, Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, riddick bowe, joe walcott, jack johnson, anyone else you care to think of. Anytime Lewis goes up against one of these guys all i see is "lewis was overrated" "lewis was glassed jawed"

so who in your opinion would he actually beat!

I don't disrespect Lennox.

Tyson: Lennox just has to survive the first 2 rounds and he would easily crush Tyson.

Holyfield: He wins a decision, Evander doesn't have the power to KO Lennox.

Ali: Ali wins a decision.

Foreman: Lennox gets caught at some point and is KOed.

Frazier: I think in a 12 rounder Lennox would survive and win a decision.

Liston: Easy Lennox decision.

Holmes: No idea. Toss up for me.

Bowe: Come on, there's a reason Riddick would not fight Lewis.

Don't know enough about the old timers but most of them would be too small to beat big ass Lennox Lewis.

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 01:11 PM
Tyson paid Lewis millions of dollars for him to step aside and that is somehow Lewis' fault?

Sorry but it's so easy to pick apart any fighters' resume in the way that you do.

Accusing Lewis of ducking Ruiz and Byrd is ridiculous.
Lennox Lewis DID NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT step-a-side money, he could have said NO and went ahead with fighting Tyson for a career highest payday and a guaranteed title shot

Kid McCoy
07-22-2009, 01:14 PM
Lennox Lewis DID NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT step-a-side money, he could have said NO and went ahead with fighting Tyson for a career highest payday and a guaranteed title shot

No he wouldn't because Tyson then vacated the belt anyway.

Btw, Sonnyboy, how/where do you rate Riddick Bowe?

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 01:20 PM
Bowe was a good fighter and i would rate him on a par with Lennox Lewis, both 15-20 All time heavyweights

what about you Kid?

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 01:50 PM
Hi Sonnybox, only a few days ago you said:

'Lewis just does not match-up to Bowe in any department of the sport of boxing'.

and today:

'i would rate him on a par with Lennox Lewis, both 15-20 All time heavyweights'

You are consistent only in your inconsistency!

And I very much doubt that Chris Byrd or John Ruiz offered any threat to Lewis's crown. The public were happier seeing him fight Grant and Tua who were seen as real threats!

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 01:55 PM
Lennox Lewis DID NOT HAVE TO ACCEPT step-a-side money, he could have said NO and went ahead with fighting Tyson for a career highest payday and a guaranteed title shot

BOXING; Deal With Lewis Frees Tyson to Seek Title

By GERALD ESKENAZI
Published: Friday, May 17, 1996

Mike Tyson's march to regaining the unified heavyweight crown was back in step yesterday. And all it took was $4 million.

As a result of the deal for that amount he made yesterday with Lennox Lewis, Tyson is now free to go after Bruce Seldon's World Boxing Association title while Lewis, the British challenger with the crushing right, will meet Riddick Bowe in a nontitle affair in September.

Tyson has already regained the World Boxing Council belt following his three-year layoff in prison. After he presumably defeats Seldon, in a bout on July 13, he can go after the holder of the International Boxing Federation crown, which is vacant. Michael Moorer and Axel Schulz will meet for that title June 22 in Germany.

Meanwhile, Bowe -- who said yesterday he kept fighting because "I must fight Tyson one day" -- will face Andrew Golota on July 11 in Madison Square Garden. It is the showpiece of another attractive Garden card, which includes Ray Mercer, Shannon Briggs and Arturo Gatti.

Lewis had been mandated by a New Jersey court to be Tyson's next opponent. But Tyson isn't quite ready for Lewis. His three fights since his return 14 months ago have been walkovers in which he has earned more than $60,000 a second.

So Tyson settled with Lewis to step aside. As part of the deal, Lewis will be permitted an interim fight -- the September bout with Bowe -- and Tyson can go on to fight for the I.B.F. title.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/17/sports/boxing-deal-with-lewis-frees-tyson-to-seek-title.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 01:59 PM
BOXING; Deal With Lewis Frees Tyson to Seek Title

By GERALD ESKENAZI
Published: Friday, May 17, 1996

Mike Tyson's march to regaining the unified heavyweight crown was back in step yesterday. And all it took was $4 million.

As a result of the deal for that amount he made yesterday with Lennox Lewis, Tyson is now free to go after Bruce Seldon's World Boxing Association title while Lewis, the British challenger with the crushing right, will meet Riddick Bowe in a nontitle affair in September.

Tyson has already regained the World Boxing Council belt following his three-year layoff in prison. After he presumably defeats Seldon, in a bout on July 13, he can go after the holder of the International Boxing Federation crown, which is vacant. Michael Moorer and Axel Schulz will meet for that title June 22 in Germany.

Meanwhile, Bowe -- who said yesterday he kept fighting because "I must fight Tyson one day" -- will face Andrew Golota on July 11 in Madison Square Garden. It is the showpiece of another attractive Garden card, which includes Ray Mercer, Shannon Briggs and Arturo Gatti.

Lewis had been mandated by a New Jersey court to be Tyson's next opponent. But Tyson isn't quite ready for Lewis. His three fights since his return 14 months ago have been walkovers in which he has earned more than $60,000 a second.

So Tyson settled with Lewis to step aside. As part of the deal, Lewis will be permitted an interim fight -- the September bout with Bowe -- and Tyson can go on to fight for the I.B.F. title.

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/17/sports/boxing-deal-with-lewis-frees-tyson-to-seek-title.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rssLewis never went ahead with the Bowe fight claiming he was concentrating on regaining his WBC title

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 02:03 PM
Lewis never went ahead with the Bowe fight claiming he was concentrating on regaining his WBC title

I'd say it's rather because Bowe was destroyed by Golota and retired.

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 02:05 PM
Hi Sonnybox, only a few days ago you said:

'Lewis just does not match-up to Bowe in any department of the sport of boxing'.

and today:

'i would rate him on a par with Lennox Lewis, both 15-20 All time heavyweights'

You are consistent only in your inconsistency!

And I very much doubt that Chris Byrd or John Ruiz offered any threat to Lewis's crown. The public were happier seeing him fight Grant and Tua who were seen as real threats!
no inconsistency there.. i dont think that Lewis matches up to Bowe in any department and would rate them both in the 15-20 positions... IMO and many other boxing fans opinion both Ruiz & Byrd posed a huge threat to Lewis, i would favor Byrd to easily win a UD over Lewis, Lewis would also have had his work cut-out with Ruiz who would have put up a far better show than Michael Grant

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 02:08 PM
I'd say it's rather because Bowe was destroyed by Golota and retired.
Rock Newman offered Lewis $10 million `Live` on BBC television which was turned down

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 02:14 PM
Rock Newman offered Lewis $10 million `Live` on BBC television which was turned down

When did he do this?

In case you didn't read the article I posted, Lewis was supposed to fight Bowe for the WBC interim title but Bowe went onto get whipped by Golota in two brutal fights that ended his career.

Lewis then fought for the vacant WBC title which Tyson had vacated to fight Seldon and Holyfield instead of Lewis.

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 02:17 PM
Sonnybox, read the English 'does not match' does not mean 'on a par'! Your own wording.

Why dont you start a poll? Lennox Lewis vs Chris Byrd or Lennox Lewis vs John Ruiz. Lets see who agrees with you!

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 02:25 PM
its completely imaterial to me who thinks would win, its who i think would win that matters

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 02:27 PM
Sonnybox, read the English 'does not match' does not mean 'on a par'! Your own wording.

Why dont you start a poll? Lennox Lewis vs Chris Byrd or Lennox Lewis vs John Ruiz. Lets see who agrees with you!i have seen poles where the majority think Lewis would beat Ali,Frazier and Foreman that does not mean that he would do so in reality.. IMO i feel all 3 would KO Lewis within 6rds

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 02:37 PM
its completely imaterial to me who thinks would win, its who i think would win that matters

I would like to know why you think Byrd would beat Lewis.

Is it the stylistical match-up that'd be tough for Lewis? Because I don't see that, I actually think it would a very, very easy fight for Lennox stylistically.

In fact the reason why Lewis did not even consider fighting Byrd was because the public felt it would be an uninteresting match-up and a bit of a mismatch as well. Look at the difference in size between the two.

sonnyboyx2
07-22-2009, 03:02 PM
I would like to know why you think Byrd would beat Lewis.

Is it the stylistical match-up that'd be tough for Lewis? Because I don't see that, I actually think it would a very, very easy fight for Lennox stylistically.

In fact the reason why Lewis did not even consider fighting Byrd was because the public felt it would be an uninteresting match-up and a bit of a mismatch as well. Look at the difference in size between the two.
Byrd held his own against the Klitschko brothers McCline & Ribalta all who was bigger men than Lewis, he beat Tua & Holyfield far easier than Lewis did, Byrd fought his way to be No1 contender so should have rightly be granted a title fightnot told by an arrogant champion "no your not worthy".. and regardless of what fight-fans thought, did 99% of fans feel Bert Cooper did not deserve a shot at Holyfield because he stood no chance? ... all top contenders in the heavyweights have a chance

TheGreatA
07-22-2009, 03:38 PM
Byrd held his own against the Klitschko brothers McCline & Ribalta all who was bigger men than Lewis, he beat Tua & Holyfield far easier than Lewis did, Byrd fought his way to be No1 contender so should have rightly be granted a title fightnot told by an arrogant champion "no your not worthy".. and regardless of what fight-fans thought, did 99% of fans feel Bert Cooper did not deserve a shot at Holyfield because he stood no chance? ... all top contenders in the heavyweights have a chance

Byrd was beaten for 9 rounds by Vitali until he injured his shoulder.
Wladimir beat him with ease two times.
The slow and ponderous McCline knocked Byrd down and lost a split decision.
Ribalta was shot to bits and was in his prime 13 years previously when he fought Mike Tyson.
Golota fought Byrd to a draw which should have gone his way.

Tua matched up terribly against Byrd's defensive style and had already been beaten by Lewis.
40 year old Holyfield fought the whole distance with a torn rotator cuff and had been beaten by Lewis previously.

The fact is that all champions in boxing history missed out on fighting some contenders. Lewis however always fought the obvious, number 1 challenger out there and he never blatantly ducked anyone. Fighters like Ruiz and Byrd weren't bad but they were hardly viewed as threats to the champion by the public.

Spartacus Sully
07-22-2009, 03:47 PM
Iron Lion Zion

Good Video

Kid McCoy
07-22-2009, 04:48 PM
no inconsistency there.. i dont think that Lewis matches up to Bowe in any department and would rate them both in the 15-20 positions... IMO and many other boxing fans opinion both Ruiz & Byrd posed a huge threat to Lewis, i would favor Byrd to easily win a UD over Lewis, Lewis would also have had his work cut-out with Ruiz who would have put up a far better show than Michael Grant

Nobody wanted to see Lewis vs Ruiz at the time. If Ruiz was even known at all back then it was for being blasted out in a round by Tua. I can't see what exactly Ruiz had done to get the #1 slot anyway. Grant was the big fight to be made, and Lewis vacated his belt to make it. No doubt if he'd fought Ruiz instead of Grant you'd be on here now claiming that Ruiz had already been exposed by Tua and that Lewis was ducking Grant.

Sugarj
07-22-2009, 05:37 PM
The Ruiz vs Holyfield fights were awful to watch. Holyfield was clearly not the guy he was in the Lewis return (his last truely great performance).

I'm sorry Sonnybox but I just cant agree with your quote:

'IMO and many other boxing fans opinion both Ruiz & Byrd posed a huge threat to Lewis, i would favor Byrd to easily win a UD over Lewis, Lewis would also have had his work cut-out with Ruiz'

You say its your opinion but you bring in 'many other boxing fans' into the argument.

Who are these fans? The boxing press of the day weren't shouting for either, neither were fight fans. Both these guys would be huge underdogs. Byrd got blitzed in five by Ibeabuchi and Ruiz's performance against Jones was an embarrassment. Lewis would have got stick for even fighting these two.

As for any polls weighing in favour that Lewis would beat Ali..........na never seen them. You could start one up, I'll bet it works out at over 2:1 votes in favour of Ali.

#1Assassin
07-22-2009, 05:43 PM
lewis doesnt get his props from most ppl. he would give ANY HW in history big troubles in a head to head matchup, and beat quite a few. the guy was never really challenged by anyone. he showed both men who beat him were clearly inferior to him and mainly got lucky.

Rockin'
07-22-2009, 05:47 PM
Its not disrespect, its called an opinion. There have been so many great heavyweights through the years, we all have our opinions to how they stack up.

You have to remember that its what they did in THEIR eras, not what he might have done to a 190lb Jack Johnson.

I saw Byrd mentioned through the thread, he had the potential to make anyone look bad. The guy was a boxing master.

Lennox was good.

Maybe you and arargh should hang out abit if your not...........Rockin':boxing:

#1Assassin
07-22-2009, 05:50 PM
Its not disrespect, its called an opinion. There have been so many great heavyweights through the years, we all have our opinions to how they stack up.

You have to remember that its what they did in THEIR eras, not what he might have done to a 190lb Jack Johnson.

I saw Byrd mentioned through the thread, he had the potential to make anyone look bad. The guy was a boxing master.

Lennox was good.

Maybe you and arargh should hang out abit if your not...........Rockin':boxing:

if u go too far its dissrespectful.

that "...Rocking':boxing:" thing is gayer than camacho.

Rockin'
07-22-2009, 05:54 PM
if u go too far its dissrespectful.

that "...Rocking':boxing:" thing is gayer than camacho.

Its a Rockin' thing smart guy and as Jimmy the Gent would say, "Who the F**K are you?"............Rockin':fing26:

billionaire
07-22-2009, 07:17 PM
lennox lewis was getting outboxed by frank bruno of all people......

beats prime spinks, tyson, walcott, marciano, dempsey, bowe, johnson.....loses to everybody else prime.....

them_apples
07-23-2009, 03:34 AM
Its laughable really, all you old timers in here. Most of you put Lewis in the top 10 ATG at heavbyweight, but everyone of you votes against him in head to head against anyone decent at heavyweight.

Tyson, Holy, Spinks, Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Liston, Louis, Marciano, Dempsey, Holmes, riddick bowe, joe walcott, jack johnson, anyone else you care to think of. Anytime Lewis goes up against one of these guys all i see is "lewis was overrated" "lewis was glassed jawed"

so who in your opinion would he actually beat!

I just can't see him beating the very best. He had a good career but the best name on his resume is a past it Holyfield, who almost beat him. An ATG yes, just I don't see him beating the best.

mickey malone
07-23-2009, 05:18 AM
Just to add something about Byrd.. He's a brilliant boxer and when you consider he started out at SM, he's done incredibly well..
But he relies on the back foot, while mounting attacks with arm punches.. This wouldn't be enough.. To stand any chance of beating Lewis, you have to hurt him.. Byrd would not be powerful enough to do this, much the same as when he fought Wlad..
Ruiz could probably last the distance (he's learnt a hell of a lot since Tua) but that's about it.. He'd spoil & survive, but no way is he outboxing Lewis..

0Rooster4Life0
07-23-2009, 05:28 AM
That was a Great Video A!.

Heres the one i made for Lennox

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slicksouthpaw16
07-23-2009, 06:17 AM
I do think hes underrated. He beat a lot of quality heavyweights that he doesn't get credit for and also beat everyone that he fought. That's an accomplishment that only he and Marciano can claim.